The way some here simply harden their hearts and turn from the truth in order to support one side or the other makes rather evident the reasons there has been no solution to this thorny issue and why there will be none in the immediate future.

No one is right when everyone is wrong
Each side has its truths and each side has its wrongs. Violence, whatever the cause, whatever the provocation is wrong, period. Whether Israel has a right to bomb occupied apartment buildings to assassinate an Hamas leader (fact),killing in the process his wife, two daughters and multiple residents of that complex is undeniably indefensible.

Likewise when Hamas fires Kytusha rockets into settlements, regardless of provocation, harms their cause before the world. When suicide bombers explode themselves in a marketplace killing indiscriminately they forfeit the sympathies of public opinion and deny the merit of their ultimate cause.

Those who defend Israel, and those who defend the rights of Palestinians to a homeland are both blinded by loyalties to the real solution; stop killing and start talking. Only through discussion, and never through force of arms, will we see a solution to this 60 year nightmare. Those who villify the other side thoughtlessly and stupidly only lengthen the time it takes to end this absurdity. Ony when violence ceases will both sides begin to note how they have been brutally used by the West.

#82868 by Robert on 7/01 at 5:45 am

Robert, Thanks for posting this.

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, May-June 2007,

Christianity and the Middle East
Open Bethlehem Exposes Israel’s Systematic Strangulation of the Holy City
By Pat McDonnell Twair

I haven’t linked to the site yet, which means that I haven’t seen the photos. But, I will.

I’m thinking the most significant part of this is that it is NOW. This is an on-going thing, NOW. Hard to keep these realities undercover any longer.

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, May-June 2007,

Christianity and the Middle East
Open Bethlehem Exposes Israel’s Systematic Strangulation of the Holy City
By Pat McDonnell Twair  

“Bethlehem surrounded by barbed wire and Israel’s annexation wall (Photo courtesy Sari Khour).   

DESPITE MANY reports on how Israel’s apartheid wall is subdividing Bethlehem, the magnitude of Israel’s systematic takeover of the ancient city’s holy relics, as documented in an Open Bethlehem power point presentation, was shocking.

Since the brother and sister team of Maxim and Leila Sansour launched Open Bethlehem in November 2005 (see Jan./Feb. 2006 Washington Report, p. 69), they’ve been bringing the plight of the endangered cradle of Christianity to the attention of church leaders the world over.

During a Jan. 22 presentation in All Saints Church in Pasadena, CA, Maxim Sansour explained that when the second Muslim Caliph, Omar Ibn al-Khattab, set eyes on Bethlehem in the mid-7th century, he realized it was an extraordinarily important Christian shrine, and decreed that Muslims were not to disturb a single stone of the holy site.

“A pledge was made between Christians and Muslims to live in peaceful coexistence,” Sansour emphasized, “and this has been the model Bethlehemites have emulated for centuries.”

Now Israel’s illegal wall has turned Bethlehem into a prison for its inhabitants. The formidable barrier has cut off 70 percent of Bethlehem’s agricultural lands from the urban center. His grandfather owns five acres of farmland, Sansour noted, but has been notified that Israel is confiscating it for “security purposes.”

“Contemporary Bethlehem is a multi-faith society with a population of 170,000 Palestinians in the district and 75,000 in the city of Bethlehem,” he told his audience. “We have 22 churches and 14 mosques, but the Christians are rapidly emigrating, so the population is about 30 percent Christian and 70 percent Muslim.”
 
Claire Anastus (inset) stands by a windowin her Bethlehem home, located near Rachel’s Tomb and surrounded by Israel’s annexation wall (above) (Photos courtesy open Bethlehem).
   

Sansour, who holds an MBA from the City University of New York, recalled that in June 2006 two congressmen tried to pass a resolution condemning Palestinian Muslims for driving Christians out of Bethlehem.

“Open Bethlehem immediately notified the congressmen that it was Israeli practices that are forcing Christians out of Bethlehem, not Muslims,” Sansour said. “As far as we know, the resolution was shelved.”

More than 170,000 Israelis are living in 27 settlements that encircle and encroach upon Bethlehem, Sansour noted. “These are not natural expansion, but deliberate measures to block the growth of Palestinian Bethlehem. The really scary settlement is Har Homa,” he said, “which is intended to be an alternative Bethlehem tourist center. Har Homa doesn’t have Manger Square, but it will bus Christian pilgrims to the Church of the Nativity and after they’ve had their photo-ops with the holy monuments, they will be bused back to the settlement without talking to a Palestinian or buying mementos or eating in restaurants.

“Bethlehem is in a state of emergency,” Sansour warned. “Closures have all but dried up the tourist industry many Palestinian inhabitants relied on. The wall separates Bethlehem from neighboring villages. There are just two exits out of Bethlehem that can be closed on any Israeli pretext. One gate leads to Jerusalem, the other to nearby villages.

“Checkpoints separate the Christian communities of Jerusalem and Bethlehem just as the wall has severed the Basilica of the Nativity from Jerusalem’s Church of the Holy Sepulcher,” he pointed out.   

Palestinians are particularly alarmed by a new settlement being built in the heart of Bethlehem, Sansour said. It surrounds Rachel’s Tomb and its residents are militant fundamentalist Jews.”

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2007/0705056.html

Friday, June 29, 2007
PEACE LOVING ISRAELI OCCUPATION

(Ben Heine)

Presented here are six videos that will not be screened on American or British televisions. Nor will they be shown in the Cinema Houses there. Six videos that documentthe horrors of the Israeli Occupation.

They were produced and published by B’tselem (The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) This thread was originally posted on Sabbah’s Blog…‘borrowed’ with thanks.

“Daddy will come at night, like a butter fly”
Author : Haitham

Here is a new sample of the “peace loving Israeli occupation“.

The following video testimonies produced and published by B’tselem (The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories) shows a sample of Palestinian daily misery life under the Israeli occupation:

————————————————————————

I got this link/website from another thread’s post.

Take a good look at the “SIX (6) VIDEOS” that we will NOT see on our American TVS:

http://desertpeace.blogspot.com/2007/06/peace-loving-israeli-occupation.html

82509 by nahida on 6/29 at 4:26 pm

Thanks for the piece by Bernard Josephs, on the boycotts. This sort of perks me up, seeing as how this technique has been an effective (non-violent) weapon in other similar struggles over the decades and centuries.

Gandhi used it in India, it was the only thing that actually brought about any change in the Apartheid structure of South Africa, and the leaders of the Civil Rights Movement here at home, relied heavily on it as well.

I remember reading a while back, that when Martin Luther King was finally able to meet with Ghandhi’s son for the first time, he talked with him about the whole theory of non-violent resistance, and the practical effectiveness of many of the strategies. He wondered really, (as did other leaders of the movement) if such a thing could even WORK in the struggle of oppressed people here, because of the “nature” or “character” of the problem here…meaning the hate based on racism, as opposed to say a difference in religious ideology, or even the “class” separation, but simply based on a hate for a group of people who were different from themselves, if only in the color of their skin, or the texture of their hair. In other words, this deep hatred for an entire group of people, based primarily on their racial/ethnic identity, cannot always be combated with the standard tools that apply in other conflicts of the weak against the powerful.

But, it did in fact work….not without some violence, and not without a long time of suffering on both sides, (which for the black folks of course, was not new). But, it worked. When the black populations of those places in the South started boycotting the buses, and the white merchants, etc, etc, it brought about some realistic negotiations.

So, this is a positive thing. Idealistically, this is what we have a United Nations for. But, having lost it’s legitimacy under the corrupting influence of this Mob in power in the US, the UN has simply dropped the ball on enforcing any sort of measures against Israel’s multiple violations of all the Geneva Conventions, and any other International Law.

The only drawback I see to this, is that the US will continue to fill in the gap, for whatever funds Israel would need to survive such a boycott, and we know where those funds would ultimately come from, just as they always have. US, as in the U.S. Treasury, already trillions in the red.

Still, nothing beats a “try” but a “failure”, and they we can always try again.

T&G urges a ban on Israeli goods

http://www.thejc.com/home.aspx?ParentId=m11s18&SecId=18&AId=53530&ATypeId=1

29/06/2007
By Bernard Josephs
The campaign to boycott Israel was widened this week as members of the Transport and General Workers Union prepared to vote on a motion calling for a ban against all Israeli products.

The move, to be considered by delegates representing the TGWU’s 800,000 members at their annual meeting next week, could result in millions of trades unionists coming under instructions to impose an embargo.

Such actions have already been approved by the 1.3 million strong Unison and by the National Union of Journalists. Meanwhile UCU, the academics’ union, may ballot its members over sanctions.

The TGWU’s boycott motion has been proposed by car-industry workers at its Birmingham branch. It “deplores the actions” of Israel towards the Palestinians and accuses it of failing to recognise the “legitimate aspiration of a Palestinian state”.

The motion specifically calls upon the conference to “support a boycott of Israeli products and goods” and calls on the government to take a “stronger stance in support of the Palestinian people”.

Members of the Trade Union Friends of Israel said they were hoping to persuade the union to drop its boycott move, and would be seeking talks not only with TGWU leaders but also with the proposers of the motion.

However, Eric McDonald, the union’s Birmingham branch secretary — who said he had never been to Israel or the Palestinian Authority areas — pledged that there would be no backtracking. “Boycotting worked against South Africa and the motion was approved unanimously by the 30 members of the district committee,” representing 16,000 members.

“Israel is very intolerant and sometimes its behaviour is not dissimilar to that of the Nazis,” he told the JC. “Israel, like any other fundamentalist religious state, abuses groups that are different.” This also applied to Hamas, he accepted.

Re #82061 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 6/28 at 5:30 am

Thanks for your support, Frank. I think it is so interesting that he did not answer my question, “Is Jewish nationalism compatible with universal principles of democracy and human rights?” either yes or no. I dare say everybody on this thread, including me, would say either yes or no, in the strongest terms. I for one have been saying the answer is clearly no, and that this is the essence of the conflict. Zionism puts Jewish nationalism above human rights and has therefore justified and led to the violation of the human rights of non-Jewish people. Jewish nationalists, such as Lefty and lilmamzer and even very liberal and humanitarian ones such as ITW obviously disagree in the strongest terms.

So was Kucinich, supposedly a man of principle, just being a politician when he answered my question by saying neither yes nor no but “it should be”? Maybe he was, but still, it could be a good answer. He followed by saying “that’s what we have to figure out”. At least that means he’s going to think about it and try to come up with an answer. Who knows, maybe there is some answer other than just plain no. What I would say is that a gradual process of reunification, of converting Israel from a Jewish state to a state of all persons residing in it, of integration of the occupied territories, of resettlement of Palestinians living in refugee camps and crowded in the prison of Gaza to good locations in the greater Israel/Palestine area, could result in a democracy where Jews, even if they were not a majority, would remain a very powerful minority in no danger of losing their civil rights, and such an Israel, a state of all its citizens, would continue to be a world center of Jewish culture and religion. If this would satisfy Jewish nationalists, then as far as I am concerned we would have a deal.

Re: #82023 by Tony Wicher on 6/27

Tony,

Twenty seconds is better than most of us get. That is a hole-in-one. To get a 20 second sound bite on national TV would cost you a bundle of money or a scandal of major proportions. Of course Paris Hilton can get it free on Larry King Live in a string of 20 second comments with no chance what-so-ever for any substantial nationally significant intelligence.

I suggest that we provide in our constitution a counter-Senator elected in the national election process who would be given considerable time to ask the elected senator questions. A public surrogate, as it were. That office could go to the opponent who is first runner up in the election. Even though second place is first loser, he could perform a vital service by asking embarrassing questions for the public record for the next six years. I would be willing to help fund his salary and office expenses from my taxes.

lilmamzer, what a name,,,
We must admit, atleast for once he hasnt lied.

A few days ago I spoke with Dennis Kucinich, who was making an appearance at a symposium sponsored by the IPC, the Isreali-Palestinian Confederation, a Los Angeles area group. He was preparing to make his speech and I interrupted him for 20 seconds, which was all he would allow. I told him I wanted him to go on record with an answer to the following question: Is Jewish nationalism consistent with universal principles of democracy and human rights? He thought for about 1 second and said, “It should be.” I think to myself, “What kind of answer is that?” He sees I’m not satisfied and elaborates, “That’s what we have to figure out”. That was the best I could do in 20 seconds. If I could tie him down for 20 minutes I might be able to get somewhere.

•    81971 by Fadel Abdallah on 6/27 at 7:36 pm

Fadel, you just made a “connection” for me, with this post for lilmamzer:

•  But I have a revelation and a question to ask “lilmamzer” about his own chosen identity as implied by his fake name. The word “mamzer” in Hebrew means “bastard, illegitimate child”, I could not decipher the meaning of the “lil” part, except that it might be an intended corruption of one of the several names of God in Hebrew

Here’s what’s weird…a couple of days ago, another poster, (and I think it was Tom Doff, but I won’t swear to it) responded to a lilmamzer post by calling him/her The Little Bastard. Now, since I don’t know Hebrew, and since I don’t know Arabic, (that one is simply too difficult for a middle aged person to learn) I made absolutely NO connection to the title of “The Little Bastard”, other than to (I admit it), giggle quite a bit. I thought the poster was calling him/her that just because they were so frustrated by the total lopsidedness of the faux arguments, and just really needed to blow off the steam.

NOW, I’m hearing from you how this name breaks down linguistically, and it all clicks. (well, I should say that it’s certainly worth pondering.) This is a person with a lot of hate, the type and depth of which is usually nurtured and maintained by self hate. And, he or she worries a lot about ‘Israel’s Legitimacy”.

Anyway, lilmamzer has pretty much worn me out. And, just when I thought I’d escaped the wrath, I came across another post by a different name, and damned if it didn’t sound suspiciously like lilmamzer reincarnated into a raving name/ID that includes a bunch of accusations that Amy Goodman is a bigot. Gave me goosebumps when I read it.

So, I might have to take a break from any more responses on this thread. But, it will be interesting to see if you get a response. It’s curious about that bastard thing.

Reference: lilmamzer(the master of ranting on this thread)

It’s obvious that this full-time Zionist propagandist is against the whole world and the whole world is against him. Even his notoriously devilish brother “Lefty” seems to have abandoned him after he was exposed as viciously promoting nuclear war against Arabs and Muslims.

But I have a revelation and a question to ask “lilmamzer” about his own chosen identity as implied by his fake name. The word “mamzer” in Hebrew means “bastard, illegitimate child”, I could not decipher the meaning of the “lil” part, except that it might be an intended corruption of one of the several names of God in Hebrew. As a linguist who is always intrigued by languages, I could not help restraining myself from commenting on my findings! And the question is now directed to “lilmamzer: “Why in the world you chose for yourself such a name? Is “bastard” how you see yourself? I am deadly curious, and I hope you can give us a straight answer, as a break from the ranting you’ve been posting.

#81735 by Frank Goodman, Sr. on 6/27 at 7:01 am
(13 comments total)

Re: 81584 by ardee on 6/26
And: 81451 by Howard Berg on 6/26

Mr.Goodman, I would appreciate a clarification of exactly what in my post,81584, deserves the epithet “fiction”.

I believe in a single state solution to the problems between Palestinian and Israeli, I have noted that “Of course there were arabs and jews living side by side 3000 years ago, of course BOTH have legitimate claims to that territory, they are, after all cousins. ” I have placed the blame equally between the two sides and believe I am being logical, rational and fair.

To lump me with Mr. Berg who, blinded by his religious affiliation to the jewish homeland, refuses to see the horrific treatment the JDL doles out to the palestinian. Is it perhaps because I dare take the middle ground and fail to excoriate ONLY Israel that you give me such short shrift and inaccurate criticism?

non credo, the marriage you refer to was a shotgun wedding that went off very methodically. A well executed, 360 degree, 3-dimensional clusterf-k. This isnt a relationship at all, its a bribe w/teeth of extortion.

Israel today is a trojan horse w/excellent media coverage. All very carefully presented and packaged w/the fraudulent and phony energy of a Hollywood production. Very lovely.

Israel’s arrogance is only exceeded by their remarkable capacity for deceit.
While this is really part of their pathology, its infected us now too and that is tragic.

Re: 81584 by ardee on 6/26
And: 81451 by Howard Berg on 6/26

Sorry you do not wish to be accurate in your communication attempt. Of course, if you stuck to accurate terminology and fact, you would invalidate the anti-human rights nature of Zionism. Re: 81691 by nahida on 6/27.

My discussion is somewhat academic as I am, indeed, an educated man. It is education that makes the difference. Ordinary people who could not care less about anything more important than their next paycheck, God bless their ignorant souls, would not care for the difference between vitamin deficiency and a full stomach.

Of course, history will eventually correct these mistakes. I will not live to see it, but surely truth will triumph. Jews did not own the land of Palestine (Actually the precursor of Palestine, that you may, if you want, call it the ‘Holy Land’, a misnomer for a Jewish mythology’.

All religious mythology is passe. We have moved on to better processors of fact and fiction. BTW: I read in the Bible, Genesis, that Abraham found people there when he got there. Don’t you ever wonder who those people were? The Bible identifies them rather clearly as Canaanites and others. They did not get there by following Abraham. They were already there. And what about the fights Abraham and his followers had with the indigenous people he found there. And what about the associates of Moses after they escaped slavery in Egypt? They found the original people very much in the ‘Holy Land’. They were much like the Palestinians the Jews found on their ‘return’ from the Diaspora. Occupied with tending the land and their flocks. Not prepared for armed conflict with the encroachment of Jews long gone to work as ‘guest’ workers in Egypt.

Sorry, Jews were, indeed, present in that land a couple of millennia ago, but the did not hold clear title to the land. They held it by the right of conquest, which humans now reject in the United Nations charter. If you move into a place with enough armed force and kill enough of the locals, you can take over. That is what happened in Biblical times. Read Genesis in its entirety. Note how many times ‘God’ favored Abraham, and told his followers to kill the locals, man, woman, child, and their farm animals.

It is a myth that ‘God’ told Abraham to go and take over the ‘land flowing with milk and honey’ from the locals. Who do you think were tending the cows and the bees? Not Abrahamites.

You better get up to date on your facts and fiction.

The Founding Fathers

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html

David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 – 1963

“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
—David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
—David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
—Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
—David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
—David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
—David Ben-Gurion 1938 (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

The Founding Fathers-1

Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
—Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.”
—Golda Meir, March 8, 1969

“Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.”
—Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

“This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.”
—Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
—Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

“[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”
—Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983

“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”
—Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”’ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”
—Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

The founding fathers:2

Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 – 1992

“The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country.”
—Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
—Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
—Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999

“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
-Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 – 2001

“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”....
—Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

“If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
—Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
—Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - 2006

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
—Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
—Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”
—Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online.

Sources:

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html
Video : http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk
Quotes: monabaker.com/

Mr.Goodman

Is it simply nitpicking to quibble over my misuse of legal instead of legitimate? I hate to think so as this is not a disertation or thesis leading to a degree but a converstaion.

Israels founding, as noted here:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_independence_un_role.php

was done with a mind to all the players in that region and was, I believe, administered fairly. The newly birthed State of Israel (your continuing to call it Palestine is an agendised ploy it would appear) after defeating the armed insurrection against it did indeed oust the resident Arab populace, in some large part. As my original post on the subject stated plainly it was wrong of them to do this, yet, having sailed over from a war torn Europe, escaping from the ravages of Nazi Germany only to come under fire from Arabs fomented by the Brits, one may understand if not condone.

Ever wonder, Mr. Goodman, what the history of that nation might have been like had the Arab population welcomed the refugees? I have. I continue to argue that both sides are refusing to even attempt a solution, thus both sides share the blame.

Re: #81349 by ardee on 6/25

“Israel, as a legally constituted nation is wrong for its actions against a poor, desperate and landless people. The Palestinians are wrong for abetting the violence that prevents some solution, any solution.”

Two wrongs do not make it right. But one wrong should be rectified. That is the wrong of the statement that Israel is a “...legally constituted nation…”

There are two terms that are confusing to most people. The relationship between the term, legal, and the term, legitimate. Legitimate simply means that it is accepted by the operating authority and that the operating authority is accepted by the majority by act or by fact.

Legal means accepted as lawful. It is legitimate that the majority of people act responsibly or in accordance with the acceptance of the majority. It is not legitimate when an outside power acts to endanger the people of one land when confronted with a takeover by another people. To make an illegitimate act legal after the fact is to cave in to aggressors and hand the fruits of the aggression over to the aggressors in perpetuity. The United Nations had no authority in law or legitimacy to hand over any part of Palestine to the Zionists by an act of ‘recognition’.

Compare the revolt of the colonists in America with the taking of the lands of the Native Americans by the American states. Now compare the revolt of the Palestinians against the takeover of their homes and lands by Zionists with the handover of Palestine to the Zionists by the British with the blessing of the United Nations and now the acquiescence of the world.

If it was wrong for Hitler to confiscate the properties and lives of Jews in Germany, it is wrong for Zionists to confiscate the properties and lives of Arabs in Palestine. The majority of Germans approved of the confiscation from Jews, and the majority of Jews approved of the confiscation from the Arabs. Take it to the next question. Did Jews approve of the confiscation of their properties? And do the Palestinians approve of the confiscation of their properties?

Did the American Natives approve of the confiscation of their properties and homes by force? Was it legitimate in the Native Lands? Was it legal for the European colonists to do so? If the European colonists passed laws to make it legal, it is a legal fiction. Not legitimate. When American Natives ceased “...to fight forever…”, did it become legitimate? Was it right or wrong?

Israel is legal, but not legitimate, because the Palestinian people never voted to give up their rights or to assign them to Zionists. They have a right to resist that process in a violent reaction just as America had a right to resist the violence of Japan and Germany. However, had the American natives succeeded to prevent the taking of their lands by the Europeans, the decision would have fallen on them to resist Japan and Germany for invading American Native lands.

Human rights are not codified, but determined by the common sense of justice and morality. Laws codify justice and morality according to legitimacy of the acts. My real estate property rights are protected by my state, and nation and announced by my deed of ownership. I can convey ownership to others for a consideration. The state can take my property for reasons legal to the state, and someone else can cause the state to take the property from me and give it to someone else in accordance with laws properly enacted and enforced.

Is Israel legal? Is Israel legitimate? Is Israel moral? Is Israel right?

Is Palestine legal? Is Palestine legitimate? Is Palestione moral? Is Palestine right?

Dear Truthdig reader.
While some may sincerly covet the spirtual geography that is Israel, the political state of Israel is a hand grenade of bad karma.
No friends, just resentments, acrimony, distrust and hate - w/no one to thank but themselves.

Non Credo posits:
Ardee - your even-handed dismissal of both sides of the fatimah/ilmamzer divide ignores the fact that there is no underlying equivalence of the two sides in this dispute. Fundamentally, the Palestinians are right, and the Israelis are wrong. The only counterargument the Israelis can offer is, “There’s nothing you can do about it, so give up,” which is not an argument on principle, of course, but more like saying, “I have a gun, and you don’t.”

..I did not assay to be dismissive and I believe my words do not lend themselves to such interpretation. I stated that both sides are at fault here. And they are.
Palestinians gave up the ‘rightness’ of their cause when the first act of terrorism was perpetrated upon the Israelis. Israel, in its infancy, was maneuvered into hostility against the indigenous arab population by the British who sought a bloodbath (by arab against jew) in order to regain their colony deeded to the refugee jews by the Balfour Declaration. Israel has long since passed the point of redemption for the necesary struggle to establish a state in what was given to them, and with the full agreement of the world.

This thread is filled with venom and so is the struggle between the two peoples. The world must share the blame though Jordan has taken in and granted citizenship to thousands of palestinian refugees. To blanket indict one side or the other is to continue the false stance and aides a continuation of the violence.

Israel, as a legally constituted nation is wrong for its actions against a poor, desperate and landless people. The palestinians are wrong for abetting the violence that prevents some solution, any solution. One might sympathise with them but one must, in the name of reason, condemn them as well. We condemn Bush for the torture and murder of Iraqis, as we should. We condemn the US for an illegal invasion of that nation, as we should. We condemn the state of Israel for its armed aggressions against refugee camps as we should. We condemn AlQaeda for its violence and we should also condemn Hamas for its, and the peoples who allow it to be done in their name as well.

Israel’s most effective lie?

The one they tell themselves.

Israel ups the stakes in the propaganda war

Following its invasion of Lebanon this summer, Israel was said to have largely lost the PR battle to Hizbullah, but armed with a major web offensive, it’s fighting back

11.20.2006 | The Guardian
by Stewart Purvis

“Amir Gissin runs what he calls ‘“Israel’s Explanation Department”. Which is why it is surprising to hear him admit that many Israelis think “the whole problem is that we don’t explain ourselves correctly”.

But Gissin was not down-hearted. He declared there to be a “war on the web” in which Israel had a new weapon, a piece of computer software called the “internet megaphone”.

To check out the power of the megaphone, I logged onto a website called GIYUS (Give Israel Your United Support) last Wednesday afternoon. More than 25,000 registered users of http://www.giyus.org have downloaded the megaphone software, which enables them to receive alerts asking them to get active online.

It did not take long for an alertto come through. A Foreign Office minister, Kim Howells, had issued a press statement condemning that day’s Palestinian rocket attack which killed an elderly Israeli and wounded other civilians. GIYUS wanted site users to “show your appreciation of the UK’s response”.

One click took me to a pre-prepared email addressed to Dr Howells, and a slot for me to personalise my comment. A test confirmed that the email would arrive at his office, as if I had spotted his comments on a news website, in this case Yahoo, and sent it to him with a supporting message. In the emails, there would be no indication of the involvement of GIYUS, although Howells may have been suspicious that so many people around the world had read the same Yahoo story about him and decided to email him. The Foreign Office confirms that emails were received last Wednesday but will not go into any more detail.

The most popular target of the online activists is the foreign media, especially the BBC, the news organisation which they love to hate. Earlier this year I was a member of the independent panel set up by the BBC governors to review the BBC’s coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We reported on the high number of emails we had received from abroad, mostly from North America, and the evidence of pressure group involvement. A majority of email correspondents thought that the BBC was anti-Israel, however if the emails that could be identified as coming from abroad were excluded, the opposite was true - more people thought the BBC anti-Palestinian or pro-Israel.

The BBC has already had one encounter with GIYUS - an attempt to influence the outcome of an online poll. BBC History magazine noticed an upsurge in voting on whether holocaust denial should be a criminal offence in Britain. But the closing date had already passed and the result had already been published, so the votes were invalid anyway. GIYUS supporters claim success elsewhere in “balancing” an opinion poll on an Arabic website by turning a vote condemning Israel’s attack in the Lebanon into an endorsement.

One particular target has been the respected French TV correspondent, Charles Enderlin, whose Palestinian cameraman filmed 12-year-old Mohammed al-Dura being shot and killed, as his father tried to shield him at the start of the second intifada. Enderlin accused Israeli troops of shooting and killing the boy. French supporters of Israel went online to claim the report was a distortion based on faked footage. His network, France 2, responded with legal action and, last month, in the first of four individual cases, a French court found the organiser of a self-styled media watchdog website guilty of libel.

It is clear that the government of Israel wants to fight back against the impact of foreign media pictures like these.”
—————————————————

Beware of “GIYUS” Israe’ls Internet Mega-Phone.

Read All About IT:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=695

The little bastard, AKA lilmamzer, is not what he appears, he is a joke, a parody, an impossibility, for it can be mathematically proven that it is not possible to cram that much sh*t into even the most obese, fat-headed, zionist jew.

#81249 by Non Credo:

Lilmamzer, just so you know: I no longer read your ridiculous posts.

As if it was evident in any of your posts that you
ever did?

Your loss, of course. We will survive, somehow…......... 

#81226 by Non Credo:

“The presumption challenged is that it is morally acceptable to have a state whose legal structures assign preferential stake to all those who pass some test of Jewishness. It is not surprising that the Israeli right wing rejects this challenge. But why is the message also rejected by those Israelis, and their Western supporters, who claim to be concerned about human rights?”

Ben-Dor’s critical failure is his inability to recognize that without allowing for Jewish self-determination (i.e. the founding and maintaining of the State of Israel) human rights will be denied the Jews, and there can be no justice in that. He also fails to explore the reality that Zionism is not mutually exclusive with self-determination for Arabs, either. That is the key element that both core constituencies of the Israeli right and left understand, but Ben-or does not. In this regard he is no different than Fatah, Hamas, and any other rejectionist and absolutist ideology.

#81210 by Non Credo:

I was thinking, “Please, God - tell me I’m not the only one who finds talking with these arrogant, dishonest, and stubborn people so maddeningly futile!”

I certainly hope you are referring to me.

<u>arrogant</u> - sometimes, sure (it’s not a crime)

<u>dishonest</u> - never

<u>stubborn</u> - proudly so

<u>You forgot to mention:</u> impassioned, articulate, well-informed, thoughtful, refreshingly original, pertinent, loyal, and proud.

There is a logical solution to the Israeli/Palestinian/Middle East problem, but it may not please everyone.

We need to find some more of that amber that has trapped mosquitos which have bitten velociraptors.

I don’t think either the jews or the arabs can claim to have pre-dated the dinosaurs in their occupancy of the West Bank, or Gaza, or any other part of the ‘Holy Lands’. So let’s put that whole section of ‘god’s’ land back under the control of those who ‘god’ intended to live there.

The current jews and arabs will provide fodder for the new/old inhabitants, and when this crop of dinosaurs dies out, decaying into vast pools of underground oil, we can hope that civilization has reached a point where the only use they’ll have for oil is to light an occasional lamp, and there’ll be no need to squabble over the middle-east, since the world will have become rational, it’s citizens atheists, and peace will reign.

The exchanges between lilmamzer and fatimatalk show rather plainly why peace will be hard earned in the middle east. Each show an accurate representation of a small slice of reality and ignore the much greater picture.

Of course there were arabs and jews living side by side 3000 years ago, of course BOTH have legitimate claims to that territory, they are, after all cousins.

Of course the State of Israel is threatened by terrorism from a stateless people with no hope for the future for themselves or their children. Of course the JDL has brutalized the palestinians for decades, murdering rock throwing children, imprisoning and torturing many. Each side can show a laundry list of horrific actions by the other, and both are absolutely correct!

The world, but the neighboring states in the area even more so, are negligent and remiss in making no real honest effort to bring about a solution to this almost endless round of violence and hatred. The article mentions, as well it should, the corruption of the arab population in Gaza and within the palestinian refugee camps. Fatah is corrupt as hell, Hamas is another fanatical religious group in the mold of AlQaeda.

Israel is a state and should learn to act like one. Against homeless and desperate people driven to despicable acts by poverty and neglect they should demonstrate an understanding borne on a thousand years of suffering themselves. Instead they drive tanks through homes, drop bombs on apartment complexes and assassinate leaders with missles on crowded highways. A pox on these fools, all of them.

The beauty of this scene is that it is typical of human history over time.

Go back a few hundred years to the Indian Wars in America. Go then to the subject of ‘Indian slaves’. Yes, Indian slaves. There are two categories of Indian slaves. One is the Native Americans who were captured or bought as slaves from other Native Americans. The other is slaves owned by Native Americans or tribes, either captured in combat, bought with money, or caught and held for their service. Cherokees, Choctaws, and Chickasaws all had the institutions of slavery. Some rich Native Americans before the Trail of Tears owned African slaves whom they bought at auctions or from European American slaver owners. Other tribes harbored run-away African slaves, enslaving some and freeing others.

Palestine is not all honest, democratic, and embracing human rights and freedom of religion and politics any more than Americans and Europeans are. The battle is for equality, human rights and justice, not for Palestine, Israel, or America. It is an ongoing battle over historic eras. It is a human evolutionary biologic process. The process is early in the evolution of Homo sapians. Measured over millennia and eons, tremendous progress has been made. It is not easily seen in the short sight of a computer nerd or a member of congress.

Nahida

Thank you !
شكرا ..ولك من القلب ألف وردة معتقة بمسك الأرض

Any one for hope?:)

I love this song , Outlandish -Look Into My Eyes, let the world know the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvUT0v9Dtq8

A poem I dedicate to the those the refugees who have seen Palestine only with their hearts..

(¯`·._.·(Forget)·._.·°¯)

As I sit

On the shore of my memories

My sorrow plays its dreadful tunes

Echoing in the horizons of my soul

My eyes search for answers

Deciphering the secrets of this universe

Forget! They said

Forget the letters of her name

Forget the path to her heart

Forget

And take her winds to dunes beyond your desert

Forget

And take her yearning to lines beyond your poetry

Forget

And take her light to corners beyond your lanterns

Forget

For she shall never return

And the key you hold will never open her doors

Forget

The olive trees no longer grow

And the birds no longer sing your melodies

Forget!

But how shall I forget?

When I hear her whispers with every breeze

After I‘ve seen the sorrow that sleeps in her eyes

As she sends her letters with the migrating birds

How shall I forget?

Her name haunts me

Follows me

Beats in my head

She runs in my blood

After all of this you ask me to forget!

To throw her reminiscences in the seas of your gloom

To drown in the depths of nostalgia

NO!

I shall not forget her

Palestine…..

I will remain a candle

Illuminating the path of your return

***

Fatima..

80956 by Non Credo on 6/24 at 11:39 am

Oh Non Credo, this post was just smack dab right on, in describing all of the things that come up in the tortured logic of the “Zionist Mentality”. You could not have described it more accurately.

The really scary thing, is that it’s not ONLY “registered zionists” that have this mentality, because it actually exists in sub-pockets of our society that wouldn’t even know the meaning of the word “Zionist”.

Still, I had to laugh out loud. You’re so on the money.

Butai,

I can assure you I’m not brainwashed !! I am afterall a Palestinian American, I’m 19, and can assure you all I’ve done is some research ! Why in the world was I born in America? Because some racist lunatics want to establish their own state, and America would love nothing more than to have a hand right in the MIDDLE of the Middle East!

You can dislike me and loathe me all you want. Life stops making sense when you look around and cant find somewhere you can REALLY call HOME.

Like I said I have nothing against Jews or Christians. Yet I loathe, dislike , despise, and hate..Zionists! And I will never forgive them.

Listen to Fisk ppl, he knows what he’s talking about. Why dont we ever wake up until something like Sep.11 happens? WHY!!

Long Live Palestine

by Non Credo on 6/23 at 9:59 am

I fear I owe you an apology for a post on another article - “Blowback in Lebanon”.

I came in without understanding and took great exception to the word “Tar Baby” and launched from there.  Definately a case for my foot in my mouth.

Reading your posts here, in an article I wholeheartedly agree with, I feel like an idiot.  I would also say “lilmamzer” is not someone I can agree with.

81100 by CJ on 6/24 at 8:50 pm

C.J. what an excellent post. You’re right. And, Robert Fiske does continue to gift us with the realities of real time, which is extremely helpful. Life-blood for a dumbed-down population, even if it isn’t entirely our own fault.

Meantime, I have his most recent two books in my “to read” stack, so hopefully we’ll continue to be enlightened.

#80955 by nahida on 6/24 at 11:20 am

Yor posts leave me in awe.  I must thank Robert Fisk for bringing you here.

Peace and Justice

#80952 by nahida on 6/24 at 11:15 am
(110 comments total)
========================
Thank you nahida for the beautiful message of hope. You did convince me, at least for the time being, to hang on to the rope of hope. Again, your deep sincere words prove you’re a special daughter of bleeding Palestine. You know! I might be the age of your father (61 or 62? believe me my depression led me to stop counting!) and here you are a young lady giving me counsel and hope, when, under normal circumstances, it should be the other way around! I guess these are days of great trials and tribulations of unprecedented proportions, and it’s only with and through hope that one can survive.

شكرا لك من أعماق قلبي
Shukran laki min a’maqi qalbi!

Welcome to Israel

A political state by day, a religious state for tax purposes, an extradition-free refuge for its citizens who commit crimes elsewhere, but always, the exhausting, manipulating and misunderstood victim that demands to be treated as the exception and always at the expense of others. Nice legacy.

#80956 by Non Credo. Excellent analogies, Mr. Credo, should be required reading for all US citizens, to help them understand that arabs/muslims/palestinians have a valid point of view vis a vis the zionists.

Who is there?

Oh human
Can’t you see!
I am precisely like you
I don’t like being humiliated
I am no one’s doormat
I’m person in my own right

When I was born
I was born innocent
Happy and free
And I want to live
A normal life
With dignity
Wouldn’t you?

I realise there is a dawn
Waiting to be born
And that… after hardship… passes away
Ease will come to life… very soon

But… they’ve inflected so much
Pain and cruelty
Upon this little girl
And upon her homeland

The world is watching
Eyes open wide
In bewilderment
And disbelief
“What we are watching
Is a fiction movie
It’s not really true”

While in exile
Puzzled… I agonize
Wiping tears off my saddened face
Searching around
Any one there?

Looking up… into sky
Did You hear my cries?
Did You witness the crime?

Suddenly
Knock… knock
A gentle tap

Yes, coming
Who is there?

Hope is here
Smiling at my heart
Standing by my door

Oh dear Fadel Abdallah

Thank you very much for the overwhelmingly kind words, I most certainly do not deserve all this praise, nor do I think (as much as I’d love to) that I have chased those Zionists away.

As for HOPE dear fadel, it is our most precious and most powerful weapon. a weapon that NO ONE can ever take away from us, nor should we allow ourselves to let go of.

The sun of our freedom WILL rise one day, and every hours that passes by brings us closer to that day… we get closer to becoming FREE people, living on our land, enjoying equal rights with the rest of humanity. It’s only a matter of time.

There are things that could speed up the coming of that day, dear fadel, namely, if we hold onto and live by ethics and morality that has JUSTICE as its mind, COMPASSION as its heart, and LOVE as its soul.

Only a civilization that harbours the highest standard of morality will be able to survive and carry humanity into a better tomorrow.

Whomever and whichever ummah is able to manifest that criterion of integrity, decency, and truthfulness is going to be the ummah that leads the world to a better future.

That can only be done through us the individuals; by understanding the true message of “allatheena amanou waamilou essalehat”.

When we realize that we cannot force change upon people or upon the world, but the only change that we can truly achieve is the inner change of ourselves, by putting into practise what we want to see the world living by.

“la yoghayeru Allahu mabiqamin hatta yoghayerouo ma bianfusihim”

We as individuals can only live by these values, and die by them also… and of course it does not matter if we die without seeing a real change, for others including our children will definitely see it.

Please remember:
We –Palestinians- are not alone
The best of humanity is on our side
The mighty truth is on our side
Gracious morality is on our side
Justice, dignity, human values, radiant hope are on our side

The soil, stones, and sand
Trees, red poppies, lemon zest, and morning mist
Are all on our side

We stand there
As the stick of Moses
Splitting good and evil

Our tragedy is a sieve
Filtering the wicked away

We all live and die…

But better to live with wounded body and a soul whole, unharmed
And die standing up with dignity

Than to live and die
Inflated by arrogance
Bent by corruption
Twisted by greed
weighed down by oppression of others
Crawling on your feet
Lusting after power
With a disfigured soul

Nahida, beautiful daughter of bleeding Palestine!
 
You’re a genius with a brilliant mind and even a bigger heart. You managed to chase away, from these threads, two of the worst Zionist propagandists “Lefty” and “Lillzamer”; they could not stand the heat of your soft yet powerful words.
 
May I nominate you to lead the Palestinians in a new liberation movement, to replace both Hamas and Fatah. A new liberation movement of “the Middle Way”; the “Ummah Wasatan” of the Qur’an. When Fatah and Hamas tragically fell to the old colonial trap of “Divide and rule” and reached the point of shedding each others blood, they both became irrelevant in my eyes, for “it takes two parties to tango.” I am sadly depressed to the point that I started to question whether we, the Palestinians, are up to the noble and serious business of liberating Palestine. Convince me that there is hope, if you can!

Their crimes continue

http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2007/06/09/this-is-israhell/

Robert Fisk is consistently brilliant on the Mideast.

Observe how the Bush Administration supports “democracy” only so long as people vote the “right” way!

Hamas won their election in Gaza. Hezbollah is a prominent party in Lebanon. If there were free elections, the Muslim Brotherhood would probably win in Egypt.

All the more reason for the USA to get the heck out of the Mideast, period.

#80860 by http://www.fatimatalk.com

You write: “A two state solution will never succeed.” (But perpetual war is ok with you?) “Stop fabricating facts! This is what we get for treating you as humans, when the entire world degraded and humiliated you! GET EDUCATED!”  (Huh?) “Palestinians will never accept that the holy city of Jerusalem by divided.” (And who is brainwashed?) “Although Zionist claim to have suffered under Nazi dominance…”  “…the Israelis by far exceeded the Nazis …” (CLAIM??? Israelis exceeded the Nazis!!! Who said propaganda?) “Most importantly both will be thrown into the filthiest bins of history!!” (Ok I get it: Long live Iran!)

You are wrong about rejecting a two state solution but obviously you do not wish it to happen for it would not fit your “truth.” I pity you, dislike you, and forgive you all at the same time. Pity you because you are so full of hatred that you will live your life always wanting to destroy and seek revenge. Dislike you because to me you just represent the other side of the coin and are as brainwashed as the “Zionists” you hate so much. Forgive you because to have real peace in the world one has to forgive.  The fact is that if anyone thinks that there is only a one state solution, they will only perpetuate the wars and the deaths of their loved ones.  Frankly, it is easier to hate and to want to kill than to love thy neighbor. And to think that these wars are fundamentally religious… One wonders if any of these people on either side actually know how to read. I agree get EDUCATED! But sadly as history shows us (and Werner Hertzog said so well) “the common denominator of the universe is not harmony but chaos, hostility and murder.”  Thank you Fatimatalk for confirming this.

Nahida…I’m passing this formula along to one of the junior geniuses I have around me. (smile) I was able to “get” the ordinary person’s solution pretty easily. It’s the one that makes the most rational sense.
*****************
“P + S = F + J – W
If X+Y+B=0 → Z+B=0
Peace + security = freedom + justice - war
If Aggressive Occupation = 0 → Resistance= 0”
****************

Anyway, they can follow this as practice for the LSAT. It’s always good to exercise the mind with solutions. This is pretty sound. Very impressive.

Thanks

Mathematical Politics

X=  In 1948, a small country,
Called Palestine
Was savagely attacked
By Zionist Jews
Who came from all over the world
80% of the land was occupied
They then named it “Israel”
In 1967, the rest of Palestine
Was taken over
* * * 
Y= Palestine was inhabited by Palestinians
Which (according to Zionists)
Was defined as Φ
i.e. the Palestinians didn’t exist
Still, they killed some of them
Exiled some more
And kept the rest under occupation
* * *
Z= Palestinians, like every other nation
Resisted occupation
For over than 46 years
Non violent Strikes
And demonstrations
* * *
A= In 1994, in the month of Ramadan
A settler named Goldstein
Armed to his teeth
Entered a mosque in Hebron
Attacked the worshipers
While kneeling down
He injured over sixty
And massacred 29
* * *
B=  A few days later
Surprise surprise
The first Palestinian
Suicide-bombing
Was the front page cover
In every news paper
* * *
How can you solve the problem?
Given that:    F= freedom   J= Justice   P= Peace   S= Security   W= war
Z + B = Resistance     X + Y + A = Aggressive Occupation
Φ = the empty set
________________________________________

Solution 1: (by a Soft Zionist)

Palestine was only a piece of Arab land
Oil rich countries, with plenty in hand
All we want is “peace”, so, why not divide?
93:7 seems a fair deal .so, hurry up, and decide
We’ll cage all the terrorists, to be safe and sound
Only 3 million, hope you don’t mind

S=W+ P +J + F
X+Y+A = 93   Z+B = 7
Security =  war + peace + justice + freedom
Aggressive Occupation = 93       Resistance= 7

_________________________________________________

Solution 2: (by a Right Wing Christian Zionist)

Palestine is a third world country
Backwards, uncivilized
Just give it all away
To some-one more deserving
Who looks more like us
Until the second coming
Of a “violent” Jesus Christ
Who will kill all the “badies”
And give us eternal life
And forever remember
In the dictionary of power
Might is always right
The struggle for freedom
Is the twin-half of terror
So, bombard the natives
With ethics so superior
To give up resistance
And live as inferiors
Teach them our morality
Of turning the other cheek
It’s gracious, it’s noble and obviously sleek

P = Σ W + S – F – J
X+Y+A = 100   Z+B = 0
Peace =  catastrophic wars +  security   – freedom - justice
Aggressive Occupation = 100         Resistance= 0    

________________________________________________

Solution 3: (by an Average Zionist)

It’s very complicated, you see
“Israel” is a tiny peaceful country
With unidentified borders
And a shape so absurd
Swamped by a sea of hatred
Of terrorist Arabs, all around
Fairly and truly
In order to survive
With safety and security
All intact
We need much much more land
And in the mean time
We’ll keep the Palestinians under our eyes
Crush their spirits, with even more lies
Until one day, they loose all the hope
They’ll give up and go
“Voluntary transferred”
A “pure” Jewish state
Only then, will be declared

S = 235 W - F – J + p
X+Y+A = 500     Z+B = - 300
& redefine p as :    P = piece of land
Security = 235 wars – freedom – justice + a piece of land  
Aggressive Occupation = 500       Resistance = -300  
_________________________________________________

Solution 4: (by an Ordinary Person)

Palestine is the holy land
It’s a treasure for all mankind
It’s an easy problem, if we use our mind
Start by correcting all the wrongs
Making them right
Give the Palestinians their own homes back
Return of refugees is a must, all right
Disarm the Zionist; the law of fairness is a fundamental fact
Equal are humans, Jews and Arabs, blacks or whites

P + S =  F + J – W
If X+Y+B=0   →    Z+B=0
Peace + security = freedom + justice - war
If   Aggressive Occupation = 0       →      Resistance= 0

A two state solution will never succeed.You cant make two peoples live side by side with all the hatered they have for one another. The occuppier and the occuppied. The peace proccess is only a strategy Israel and the US use to buy time. Israel knows it cant survive for a week without America spoon-feeding it.

When Jews were being humiliated in Europe and Russia, the ones living in Arab countries were living in prosper with the Arabs. They were traders, political advisors, and lived normally, in a strong society. Stop fabricating facts! This is what we get for treating you as humans, when the entire world degraded and humiliated you! GET EDUCATED !

Resistance is a legitimate right for any occuppied people. Tel Aviv is just as Palestinian and Arab as Gaza and Nablus and Acre. Palestinians will never accept that the holy city of Jerusalem by divided.

I really wish the American public would care more about whats REALLY happenning.They have been living with Zionist propaganda for so long, they grew up to believe all those lies! Whats worse is that they’re paying for it!

Although Zionist claim to have suffered under Nazi dominance, they seem to attempt the same horriffic acts against Palestinians.They want to occupy Palestine and further expand, they use torture and imprison more than 10 THOUSAND Palestinians, they burnt villages and committed massacres.
Israel uses weapons that are internationally unacceptable, they claim that they are “Gods chosen People”!!
Zionists used terror groups such as Hagana and Stern.Israel is an closed and isolated country, of which most of its citizens are employed in security and spying activities…

If Gobles, the German Minister of Propaganda, believed in ‘lie, lie and lie’, then Israel’s leaders were, and are still, ‘lying, lying and lying’!!

German Nazi Diplomacy transformed their Embassies and delegations to spying dens, the Israelis by far exceeded the Nazis, since Embassies and some members of the Jewish Diaspora (communities) became nests not only for spying but also for terror, kidnapping and the fabrication of facts!!

Racist, immoral, bloodthirsty!

Most importantly both will be thrown into the filthiet bins of history!!

Long Live Palestine.

Thanks Robert Fisk for being always a prince of the truth! In the deserts of ignorance, misinformation and pure evil propaganda of the West and the East, both governments and mainstream media, you are like an oasis amidst all this barren landscape.

#80818 by Butai:

I am sorry. I hope you accept my apologies. The whole thing just depresses me

No problem.

Don’t get depressed - it doesn’t do any good. The best thing you can do is to speak up for the rights of all peoples to exercise self-determination in a way that is not mutually exclusive. That is why I welcomed your expression of support for Israel, and for a the idea of a two-state solution.

#80815 by lilmamzer
“You didn’t read my comment carefully. I never accused you of making statements calling for the destruction of Israel. I referred to comments which are commonplace here on Truthdig message boards, but not yours. Read it again - I did not judge you. Therefore, the rest of your complaints about me are unwarranted.” 

I am sorry. I hope you accept my apologies. The whole thing just depresses me
———————-
“Perhaps. This is always a topic for an open and free debate, and it should happen in the halls of congress as well as in the media. That’s where public policy comes from.”
I totally agree

——————————

“Well, I’m in the US too and we’re having a debate, at least.”
What can I say you’ve trumped me again

#80815 by lilmamzer
“You didn’t read my comment carefully. I never accused you of making statements calling for the destruction of Israel. I referred to comments which are commonplace here on Truthdig message boards, but not yours. Read it again - I did not judge you. Therefore, the rest of your complaints about me are unwarranted.” 

I am sorry. I hope you accept my apologies. The whole thing just depresses me
———————-
“Perhaps. This is always a topic for an open and free debate, and it should happen in the halls of congress as well as in the media. That’s where public policy comes from.”
I totally agree

——————————

“Well, I’m in the US too and we’re having a debate, at least.”
What can I say you’ve trumped me again

#80812 by Butai:

Nothing in what I said advocated in the slightest the destruction of Israel. Because I believe that Palestine is the Jews rightful homeland as well as the Palestinians automatically makes my judgment suspect. You’ve started judging me without knowing. I am sorry for you.

You didn’t read my comment carefully. I never accused you of making statements calling for the destruction of Israel. I referred to comments which are commonplace here on Truthdig message boards, but not yours. Read it again - I did not judge you. Therefore, the rest of your complaints about me are unwarranted.
———————-

Good then USA should stop sinking the billions of dollars and start using it at home where it needs to start focusing.

Perhaps. This is always a topic for an open and free debate, and it should happen in the halls of congress as well as in the media. That’s where public policy comes from.
——————————

I envy Israel because here in USA nobody cares to debate anything. They just follow like sheep.

Well, I’m in the US too and we’re having a debate, at least.

#80805 by cyrena:

...a meaningful statistic, (like how many other Jews of Color Israel has “allowed in”) even though they don’t mention that NONE of them are allowed full citizenship, or anything close to the rights that “real” Israelis have.

Of course it’s meaningful, because it’s true. An Israeli citizen who is racially black and was born in Ethiopia is an Israeli citizen. Period. Just as an Israeli citizen whose skin is white and was born in the capital city of Jerusalem is an Israeli citizen. And Ethiopian Jews aren’t “allowed” in - they are rescued and brought home.

Now, how many Jews are allowed citizenship in Saudi Arabia? Or Iraq? Or Syria? Or Kuwait?

And why on earth would any Jew want to live in any of those regressive Arab societies?

#80800 by lilmamzer

lilmamzer you wrote: “Since you aren’t calling for the destruction of the Israel, at least not explicitly, don’t you have a problem with the blatant annihilationist rhetoric which floods these comments?”
Nothing in what I said advocated in the slightest the destruction of Israel. Because I believe that Palestine is the Jews rightful homeland as well as the Palestinians automatically makes my judgment suspect. You’ve started judging me without knowing. I am sorry for you. This is precisely the reason why hope for peace is hopeless.

“I doubt it. Israel’s economy is doing well, and economic aid is in the process of being phased out.”
Good then USA should stop sinking the billions of dollars and start using it at home where it needs to start focusing.

“It’s also an indication of the robust and open atmosphere for real political debate and exchange in that country. It’s fun to watch”.
I envy Israel because here in USA nobody cares to debate anything. They just follow like sheep.

by Akira_Maritias on 6/23 at 11:44 am

Akira, this is an excellent short explanation of how things came to be a 60 year nightmare for the Palestinians, and it’s simple enough for even a slow learner to follow, and to research.

HOWEVER, I have discovered from reading so of these comments by the die-hard Zionists, that they just will never acknowledge any of it. They will never acknowledge the ugly parts of their history. So they will seach for snippets of what seems to be a meaningful statistic, (like how many other Jews of Color Israel has “allowed in”) even though they don’t mention that NONE of them are allowed full citizenship, or anything close to the rights that “real” Israelis have.

So, with these people, it’s always gonna be a cut n’ paste mentality, just like george bush and his Mob. They rewritehistory, and put it in place wherever they need an excuse for some offense against humanity. 

It’s a combination of arrogance and ignorance, and that has always been a dangerous combination. I hear people say that writers like Robert Fisk are not accepted in the mainstream, and they don’t get that life goes on, and that there ARE in fact people throughout the globe, who really DO get it, and they are still living in serious denial.

But, keep writing, because there are enough reasonable people still out here, who are willing to follow the facts, and make reasonable conclusions based on those facts.

The primary problem has been that as a society of Americans, we really have not had access to real facts, because so much has been supressed, and we have been consistently dummed-down by the Oligarchy’s propaganda machine.

Robert Fisk is good, because he’s researched this information in real time, and in real space. I would be willing to bet, (a small wager only) that 90% of the posters on this site, have NEVER personally experienced life in Gaza, the West Bank, or any single solitary refugee camp sprawled across the deserts and rivers of the Middle East.

If they had, it might change their tunes. Until that happens, they’ll stay in denial.

#80783 by Butai:

The only way for Israel to survive is a two state solution. By that, I mean a REAL two state solution with Jerusalem split in half.

A “real” two-state solution does not require Jerusalem to be divided again, but I agree with you that a two-state solution is, theoretically, the best way to go. Provided, of course, the Palestinian Arabs can get their house in order. Since you aren’t calling for the destruction of the Israel, at least not explicitly, don’t yo have a problem with the blatant annihilationist rhetoric which floods these comments? Just wondering.
——————————

Israeli without our donation through US taxes would simply collapse.

I doubt it. Israel’s economy is doing well, and economic aid is in the process of being phased out. This was initiated by Netanyahu when he was the PM. Israel does receive substantial military assistance, of course, but most of that money comes back to the US in the form of equipment purchases from US suppliers.
——————————
...there is more debate about Israelis policies INSIDE Israel than in the USA

I would agree with that. My take is that it’s a natural thing - Israelis make their own policy decisions through the electoral process. It’s their country, and the stakes are so high for them, so it’s only natural for the level of debate to be intense. It’s also an indication of the robust and open atmosphere for real political debate and exchange in that country. It’s fun to watch.

The Little Bastard (AKA lilmamzer), the neocon-zionist poster, while he may not know his parents, has the president as a mentor, based on his use of language, in which his words bear no relationship to reality or truth.

Here’s a reality for you, lilmamzer.

Jews have always whined that the are the most persecuted people on earth, because others have always been prejudiced against them. The truth is, jews are the most prejudiced people on earth. First, the zionist-jews believe in ‘Israel Uber Alles’, which means NO MATTER WHAT, they will do whatever they must to support the policies of the Israeli ‘government’. Secondly, jews believe that they are the ‘chosen ones’, all others are inferior, and therefore they are prejudiced against all goys.

Since the universe of goys (non-jews), is much larger than the universe of jews, the jews are prejudiced against a population many times the size of those who are ‘prejudiced’ against jews. So being prejudiced ‘for’ a race, or religion (as jews are), is much more insidious than the relatively minor distaste many folks feel for jewish penchants (which may hardly be considered a ‘prejudice’, in many cases, since it can be predicated upon rational reactions to irrational, despicable acts, such as treating Palestinians as Nazis treated occupied peoples during WWII.)

Robert Frisk is a breath of fresh air. Keep him writing for Truthdig. As far as the Middle East is concerned, he is very knowledgeable. He will just make the blinded pro-Israelis nuts but they eventually will be forced to justify the failure of their policies. The only way for Israel to survive is a two state solution. By that, I mean a REAL two state solution with Jerusalem split in half. I am a US citizen, am pro-Israel, and have every right to demand this. Israeli without our donation through US taxes would simply collapse. Just a reminder to all before I am accused of anti-Semitism, there is more debate about Israelis policies INSIDE Israel than in the USA - the Land of the Free! This must change.

<u>correction</u> -

I just posted this:

“Amir Peretz, former mayor of Sderot (which suffers today from Palestinian Arab missile attacks against schools and homes) served as Defense Minister and leader of the Labour Party.”

I had intended to mention that Amir Peretz was <u>born in Morocco</u>, as was David Levy, the long-time former leader of the Labour Party, and seen as a leading contender for the post of Prime Minister.

#80716 by http://www.fatimatalk.com:

Racist Zionism against Jews “Talk about diversity” lol

That doesn’t make any sense, Fatima. I think you were trying to be derisive.

Zionism is inherently not racist. You misuse the term in a childish attempt to smear Israel and her supporters.

Israel IS the most racially AND ethnically diverse country in the Middle East.

And she is the most politically advanced society with established rule of law, freedom of expression and press for all, freedom of worship for all - no Arab country comes close, Fatima.

Finally, you make a feeble attempt to denigrate all of Israel and the Zionist movement by citing Ben Gurion’s use of the word savage. If you actually read the rest of what Ben Gurion said, and put it in the context of Israel’s long-established policy of encouraging immigration of Jews from Arab countries, such as Operation magic Carpet, which brought tens of thousands of oppressed Yemenite Jews to Israel in the 1950’s, you would see that you are actually hurting your own case.

Ben Gurion was a CHAMPION of bringing Jews of ALL races, black, white, and everything in between, home to Israel. And, by and large, he succeeded with his vision. Because today, the majority of Israel’s 5.25 million Jews are descended from Jews of Middle Eastern origins, not European.

Shaul Mofaz, current Transportation Minister and former Defense Minister under Ariel Sharon, was born in Iran. Amir Peretz, former mayor of Sderot (which suffers today from Palestinian Arab missile attacks against schools and homes) served as Defense Minister and leader of the Labour Party. The list goes on and on.

The Hamas vision for Palestine : a reminder

Hamas has taken over Gaza .  And to many commentators, it was Israel and the West which helped to bring this about.  Israel “fenced Gaza in”. Israel and the West “boycotted” Hamas. And so on.

Here’s a reminder of the Hamas vision for Palestine .  It’s this vision which makes Israel impose checkpoints on movement out of Gaza .  It’s this vision which places Hamas in self-imposed isolation.

We take no joy in reminding users of these quotes.  But the understating of Hamas ideology and actions by many commentators forces us to do so.

“To the Zionists who plundered our land…. we promise you that tomorrow all of Palestine will be hell for you, with Allah’s help…”
- Muhammed Deif, leader of the Izz al-Din Al Qassam Brigade, the so-called ‘military wing’ of Hamas, August 2005 (from statement posted on their website on 27 August 2005).  The Brigade has carried out over 50 suicide bombings, killing over 400 Israelis.  See Briefing 166.

“Hamas will continue to wield its weapons and to claim its right to resist.  Resistance will continue to be a strategic option until the last piece of Palestinian land is liberated, until the last refugee returns….”
- Khaled Mashal, Damascus-based leader of Hamas, December 2005, speaking in Damascus. See Briefing 166

“Israel is a vile entity that has been planted on our soil, and has no historical, religious or cultural legitimacy….”
- Mahmoud Al-Zahar, Hamas leader and former Palestinian foreign minister, October 2006, quoted in Al-Ayyam, Palestinian newspaper. See Briefing 186.

“The constants and the strategy of Hamas do not change according to circumstances.  Hamas will stay faithful to Jihad, to resistance, to guns, to Palestine and to Jerusalem….”
- Ismail Haniyeh, Hamas leader and Palestinian Prime Minister (till June 2007), quoted in the Gulf Daily News, Bahrain, 20 January 2006

“The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: “Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!....”. Palestine and the Al Aqsa mosque will not be liberated through summits nor by international resolutions, but through the rifle…..”
- Ismail Radwan, Hamas spokesman, sermon broadcast on PA TV, 30 March 2007

It was never justified. Ever. The only reason that Bushie supports Israel so much is because it says he should in the only book he knows how to read.

So, because of some old books, Israel has been formed. Oh, it’s also an apology present for WWII from the world.

Well, it obviously wasn’t formed from unowned dirt. They saw that Palestine was in the right place for Israel to be, and just cut a bit of it off.

Well, Israel started taking a little bit of land at a time. It wasn’t noticeable at first, but it did make the Palestinians edgy. Israel started doing regular security checks-another thing that made Palestinians edgy. Finally, the Palestinians waged a battle to at least stop the expansion, and Israel, giddy from a victory elsewhere, dropped their own iron curtain. Stories of women giving birth while waiting to be cleared to go to an Israeli hospital echoed around.

And now Israel still expands outward, sucking up land. Meanwhile, America supports and defends Israels actions, which further increases tension. So, with Hamas in power, America decides to utterly hate Palestine.

All I feel is pity for them. They have their land taken by other countries and formed into a new country with differing views, and any attempt to resist is met by the world taking away supplies and whatnot.

Now, just imagine if all of Europe decided to give back all of the Native Americans all of their land. Could you imagine how pissed off America would be if we were all booted into Vegas? It’s just as justified as Israel; if we’re giving out land, every conquered culture should get it back!

I feel no pity for Israel. They were given land that other people were living on, they were allowed to kick out the people living there, and now they live in a rich utopia while the natives sit huddled outside struggling to live. Why? Because their book says they should get that land. Because they used to have it a long time ago. Rome used to own most of Europe: let’s give it back to the Caesar!

Racist Zionism against Jews “Talk about diversity” lol

“

In 1949, Ben-Gurion stated that North African Jews might overcome their “savage” life and become intellects. He said:

“Even the immigrant of North Africa, who looks like a savage, who has never read a book in his life, not even a religious one, and doesn’t even know how to say his prayers, either wittingly or unwittingly has behind him a spiritual heritage of thousands of years. . .  .”  (1949, The First Israelis, p. 157)

And in one session of the Knesset Constitution, Law and Justice Committee, Ben-Gurion referred to the Moroccan Jews as “savages,” but hastily added that they were no different from other Jews as the Polish ones. He said:

“They tell me that there are thieves among them. I am a Polish Jew, and I doubt if there is any Jewish community which has more thieves among them. I am doubtful if there is any Jewish community which has more thieves in it than the Polish ones.” A few years later Ben-Gurion wrote to Justice Moshe Estzioni: “An Ashkenazi gangster, thief, pimp, or murderer will not gain the sympathy of the Ashkenazi community (if there is such a thing), nor will he expect it. But in such a primitive community as the Moroccans’—-such a thing is possible. . . . ” (1949, The First Israelis, p. 157)

In 1949, Ben-Gurion was not free of ambivalence in his attitude towards the Yemenite Jewish immigrants. In a letter to Yigael Yadin, the first Israeli Chief of Staff, Ben Gurion wrote:

“This tribe is in some ways more easily absorbed, both culturally and economically, than any other. It is hardworking, it is not attracted by city life, it has—-or at least, the male part has—a good grounding in Hebrew and the Jewish heritage. Yet in other ways it may be the most problematic of all. It is two thousands years behind us [European cultured Jews], perhaps even more. It lacks the most basic primary concepts of civilization (as distinct from culture). Its attitude toward women and children is primitive. Its physical condition poor. Its bodily strength is depleted and it does not have the minimal notions of hygiene. For thousands of years it lived in one of the most benighted and impoverished lands, under a rule even more backward than an ordinary feudal and theocratic regime. The passage from there to Israel has been profound human revolution, not a superficial, political one. All it human values need to changed from the ground.” (1949, The First Israelis, p. 186-187) It is worth noting how Ben Gurion referred to the Yemenite Jews by “it”.

#80710 by http://www.fatimatalk.com:

I am a refugee thanks to your state. I have never seen Palestine with my eyes, I’ve seen it many times with my heart. I love it, and so do the 6 million refugees around the world.

You are no refugee. There are no 6 million “refugees” from “Palestine”. There were several hundred thousand back in ‘48, but you were not one of them.

Incidentally, there were 800,000 Jewish refugees expelled from Arab countries who made new lives in Israel. You never want to address that issue. Enjoy your grievances.

———-

Zionist know nothing about Palestine, they cannot love it.

Right. That’s why millions of Zionists around the world support Israel with all their hearts, and why millions of Israelis work their asses off despite living under a constant state of seige from Arabs, to make their homeland prosperous and free. And why tens of thousands of Israelis have died defending the nomeland. All because they cannot love their homeland.

For those who dont know who Ben Gurion is:

Born in 1886 as David Green (Gruen) in Plonsk, Poland. He is considered one of the three founding figures of Zionism beside Chaim Weizmann and Herzl. Ben Gurion was the major factor behind Yishuv’s (a term that refers to the Jews in Palestine prior to 1948) military power and is considered as the founder of the State of Israel. At an early stage, he developed a passion for socialism and Zionism, and in 1906 he immigrated to Palestine. From 1921-1935, he served as the secretary general of the Histadrut, the General Federation of Labor in Palestine, and in 1935 he was elected the chairman of the Jewish Agency which he held until 1948. From 1948 until his retirement in 1963, except for a brief interval in the early 1950s, Ben-Gurion served as Israel’s Prime Minister and its Minister of Defense.

Another freak from Poland, trying to convince me he’s Palestinian? WHATEVER

lol

lil whatever, take a look at this!

“choclate colored”:

contemplate Ben-Gurion’s description of the North African Arab Jews:

“Even the immigrant of North Africa, who looks like a savage, who has never read a book in his life, not even a religious one, and doesn’t even know how to say his prayers, either wittingly or unwittingly has behind him a spiritual heritage of thousands of years. . .  .”  (1949, The First Israelis, p. 157)

“

Good God!

I am a refugee thanks to your state. I have never seen Palestine with my eyes, I’ve seen it many times with my heart. I love it, and so do the 6 million refugees around the world.

Zionist know nothing about Palestine, they cannot love it. More and more Israel’s are fleeing once they can.My grandparents left Palestine at gunpoint, after massacres and grusome crimes.

Ironically, any citizen in the world is allowed to enter Palestine, except me “the Palestinian”.

Who are you fooling. Palestinians within the green line are treated as 2nd rated citizens, they are harassed and do not have the “luxury” any Israeli citizen recieves as a bribe to stay in a land that isnt his.

Instead of me living in my land, a family brought to my village from Holland live in my grandparents house.

__

Back to my point

The attitude of ignoring the political rights of the Palestinian people was (and still is) the rule among most Zionists. According to Ben-Gurion’s biographer, it’s not only that Palestinians were the majority in their homeland as early as 1906, it also should be noted that:

The majority of Palestine’s Jews were not citizens of the country, but guests from Tsarist Russia.

The Jews in Palestinian were mostly Orthodox Jews who made up 7.8% of the total population.

At the time, the majority of Orthodox Jews were non-Zionist. Actually, the majority were anti-Zionist.

Zionist pioneers were almost absent in Palestine as of 1906, and constituted only 1% of the total Jewish population in Palestine.

#80704 by http://www.fatimatalk.com:

Zionists are bloodthirsty racist criminals.

Racist?

Are you referring to the Israeli Jews from Ethiopia, whose skin can be a beautiful dark chocolate brown?

Are you referring to Israeli Jews from India - racially indistinguishable from Hindu or Muslim subcontinental people?

Or are you referring to the pale, white-skinned and blue-eyed dictator of Syria - Bashar Assad? Or the blonde and blue-eyed millionaire Suha Arafat - wife of Yasser Arafat?

<u>Non-Racist Fact:</u> Israel is the most ethnically and racially DIVERSE country in the Middle East. This fact nicely complements the open and democratic freedoms her citizens enjoy.

You can use all the leftist buzzwords, Fatima, but they have no bearing on reality.

#80704 by http://www.fatimatalk.com

I know every stone, olive tree, and grain of soil, I know the walls of Acre,the churches of Bethlehem, the mosques and souqs of Jerusalem.

Well good for you. If you’ve spent enough time in Israel to become familiar with every grain of soil, I’m sure you’ve been paying your fair share of taxes to the government of Israel, which needs such revenues to provide for the common defense against Arab aggressors such as, well, yourself.

And while you were there, did you happen to notice the millions of Jews who live there? When you saw Jewish kids riding school busses, did you get the urge to blow them up?

Did you notice that the Arab citizens of Israel enjoy rights and privileges unavailable in any of the 22 Arab nation-states surrounding Israel? Now why is that, Fatima?

lilmamzer

Are you blabbing about names??!! Palestine is an Arab country, I dont care about what they’ve brainwashed with, the Arabs living there when the first Zionist arrived proves that everything you say are mere lies.

Give me some raw truth!

“
The concept of “transferring” European Jews to Palestine and “transferring” the Palestinian people out is central to Zionism. Ben-Gurion, the 1st Israeli Prime Minister, eloquently articulated this essential Zionist pillar, he stated in 1944:

“Zionism is a TRANSFER of the Jews. Regarding the TRANSFER of the [Palestinian] Arabs this is much easier than any other TRANSFER. There are Arab states in the vicinity . . . . and it is clear that if the [Palestinian] Arabs are removed [to these states] this will improve their condition and not the contrary.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 159)
“

“

Michael Bar-Zohar (one of Ben-Gurion’s official biographers) openly admitted that it was a myth that “Palestine was an empty land,” and to a certain degree, he managed to explain the evolution of the myth, he wrote:

“Whatever became of the slogan: A people without a land returns to land without a people? The simple truth was that Palestine was not an empty land, and the Jews were only a small minority of its population. In the days of the empire building, the Western powers had dismissed natives as an inconsequential factor in determining whether or not to settle a territory with immigrants. Even after the [1st] world war, the concept of self-determination . . . . was still reserved exclusively for the developed world.” (Michael Bar-Zohar, p. 45-46)

“

In October 1882 Ben-Yehuda and Yehiel Michal Pines, two of the earliest Zionist pioneers in Palestine, wrote describing the indigenous Palestinians:

“. . . There are now only five hundred thousand Arabs, who are not very strong, and from whom we shall easily take away the country if only we do it through stratagems [and] without drawing upon us their hostility before we become the strong and populous ones.”  (Righteous Victims, p. 49)

“

“On March 1, 1899 Yosef Diya al-Khalidi (from the renowned Jerusalem family) wrote in a letter to Theoder Herzl explaining that Zionism in practice entails the dispossession and the displacement of the Palestinian people, he wrote:

“It is necessary, therefore, for the peace of the Jews in [the Ottoman Empire] that the Zionist Movement . . . stop. . .  Good lord, the world is vast enough, there are still uninhabited countries where one could settle millions of poor Jews who may perhaps become happy there and one day constitute a nation. . . .. In the name of God, let Palestine be left in peace.” Herzl responded that Zionists do not intend on dispossession and displacing the Palestinians, on the contrary, he stated the Jews will bring to Palestine ONLY material benefits? (Righteous Victims, p. 37)

“

All of these quotes are from the mouths of racist Zionists, the leaders of “Israel”. I dont need any truth from you, I think I know exactly where I come from. I know every stone, olive tree, and grain of soil, I know the walls of Acre,the churches of Bethlehem, the mosques and souqs of Jerusalem.

Its about time you knew that every “Israeli” is a settler, their fathers were brought to Palestine from Europe, Russia and the US. Massacres such as Deir Yassin took place in many villages.

Zionists are bloodthirsty racist criminals. They have lied about the land with no people, they have altered history, they have committed crimes against humanity, and are brutal occuppiers of a land they have stolen.Whats worse is that the American tax-payer is paying for that, while members of the American community suffer from scarce healthcare, and have no shelter.

Keep reciting what they’ve made you memorize at school. Believe your lies. I cant help but laugh at your ignorance.

#80695 by http://www.fatimatalk.com:

..their forbears had listened to St. Peter in Jerusalem as he preached at the first Pentecost.

One more thing, “Fatima” - the forebears that you refer to WERE ALL JEWS.

Jewish citizens of the Jewish nation, living in their historic homeland.

In ISRAEL.

You make a good case for Jewish sovereignty. Were you aware of that?

#80696 by Non Credo:

Wow, you are really losing it. Try addressing what people are actually saying, for a change, you spluttering fool.

It’s called satire.

It works better if you quote me in the context of what YOU wrote:

Non Credo: That is the Jewish supremacist plan, of course. It’s called Zionism.

lilmamzer  Yes, Zionism will take over the entire Middle East, and all 22 Arab nation-states.

And then, of course, the entire universe.

======

Here’s how it works, Non Credo: you make irrational, paranoid proclamations of impending doom (see above), and then I satirize your foolishness by adding a few comments of my own.

I take my pleasure just by responding; whether you get it or not is beyond my control or concern.

#80695 by http://www.fatimatalk.com:

..their forbears had listened to St. Peter in Jerusalem as he preached at the first Pentecost.

The Jew named Jesus and his 12 Jewish apostles were members of the indigenous Jewish population that had only recently been conquered and occupied by the Roman Empire.

The Romans, in an effort to erase the Jewish identity of Israel, changed the name to “Palestine”. They were occupiers and had no right to do so. That is why, in 1948, when Jewish sovereignty over their land was re-established formally and recognized by the UN, the name was changed BACK to Israel.

The Jews of Israel were (and remain) the original Palestinians.

Israel is Palestine and Israel is the Jewish homeland.

It always was and always will be, regardless of what jihadist movements such as Hamas and Al Qaeda claim.

“
At the time of the creation of the Israeli state in 1948, it is estimated that the Christians of Palestine numbered some 350,000. Almost 20 percent of the total population at the time, they constituted a vibrant and ancient community; their forbears had listened to St. Peter in Jerusalem as he preached at the first Pentecost. Yet Zionist doctrine held that Palestine was “a land without a people for a people without a land.” Of the 750,000 Palestinians that were forced from their homes in 1948, some 50,000 were Christians—7 percent of the total number of refugees and 35 percent of the total number of Christians living in Palestine at the time.

In the process of “Judaizing” Palestine, numerous convents, hospices, seminaries, and churches were either destroyed or cleared of their Christian owners and custodians. In one of the most spectacular attacks on a Christian target, on May 17, 1948, the Armenian Orthodox Patriarchate was shelled with about 100 mortar rounds—launched by Zionist forces from the already occupied monastery of the Benedictine Fathers on Mount Zion. The bombardment also damaged St. Jacob’s Convent, the Archangel’s Convent, and their appended churches, their two elementary and seminary schools, as well as their libraries, killing eight people and wounding 120.

Today it is believed that the number of Christians in Israel and occupied Palestine number some 175,000, just over 2 percent of the entire population, but the numbers are rapidly dwindling due to mass emigration. Of those who have remained in the region, most live in Lebanon, where they share in the same bottomless misery as all other refugees, confined to camps where schools are under-funded and overcrowded, where housing is ramshackle, and sanitary conditions are appalling. Most, however, have fled the region altogether. No reliable figures are available, but it is estimated that between 100,000 and 300,000 Palestinian Christians currently live in the U.S.

The Palestinian Christians see themselves, and are seen by their Muslim compatriots, as an integral part of the Palestinian people, and they have long been a vital part of the Palestinian struggle. As the Anglican bishop of Jerusalem, the Reverend Riah Abu al-Assal has explained, “The Arab Palestinian Christians are part and parcel of the Arab Palestinian nation. We have the same history, the same culture, the same habits and the same hopes.”

“By Anders Strindberg

HAHAHAHA!!!!

Jeremy you ROCK!

#80685 by http://www.fatimatalk.com:

3- Gaza has not been this secure in months.

If you call rule by Hamas jihadi terrorists security, so be it. Bodies flying off roofs and burning churches must be the Palestinian Arab version of security. Meanwhile, the Kassam missiles continue to bombard Israeli civilians.
—————-

4- Palestinian have never had anything against Jews.

Palestinians ARE Jews. “Palestinian Arabs” are Egyptians or Jordanians…
As for the “Pal Arabs” not hating Jews, account for the Jerusalem and Hebron massacres of 1929, when the Arabs, led by the MJufti of Jerusalem Haj al Amin Husseini (later an ally of Hitler and poses with him in a famous WWII photograph) slaughtered hundreds of Jews And of course the Hamas charter which explicitly calls for the death of Jews.
—————————

I stand with anyone who will support the Palestinian people in winning this war against this ideology

You mean the outright destruction of the sovereign nation of Israel, the independent and free homeland of the Jews?

In your dreams.

lilmamzer

I suggest you get educated.

Akka awaits me.

#80685 by http://www.fatimatalk.com:

1- Israel occuppies the land of Palestine

Israel IS the land of Palestine, which is the name the Romans gave to Israel when they conquered and occupied the sovereign Jewish land.
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Bullshit.

2- Christian Palestinians are not oppressed, they are our friends, and even family. We respect them and love them as our own.

Palestinian Christians Face Persecution
By Chris Mitchell
Middle East Bureau Chief

CBN.com – WEST BANK - Two thousand years after the birth of Christ, Christians are leaving the Holy Land in record numbers, and a new report suggests persecution against Palestinian believers is getting worse.

Little remains of 14 homes set ablaze in the West Bank village of Taybeh. An angry Muslim mob from a neighboring village attacked the Christian town last September. They said they were avenging the dishonor of a Muslim woman allegedly impregnated by her Christian employer, from Taybeh.

Taybeh is the only West Bank village completely inhabited by Christians - about 2,000 of them. It was originally called Ephraim. It is mentioned in the Old Testament and in the book of John as a village where Jesus stayed.

Mayor David Khoury said the attack would not have occurred if Taybeh were a Muslim village instead of a Christian one.

“It happened many times between a Muslim and a Muslim, and what they did was, most times they would just marry the girl off. Had they gave us a chance and prove this pregnancy was from the man from Taybeh, maybe we would have married him off to that girl,” Khoury said.

The attack on the village of Taybeh is one more example of the precarious position of Christians in the West Bank and throughout the Middle East.

International Human Rights Attorney Justus Weiner has researched the plight of Palestinian Christians for more than eight years. His findings were recently published by the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.
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1- Israel occuppies the land of Palestine, it is nothing but an enourmous settlement. For every “Zionist” family living in Palestine, a Palestinian family has been terrorized, massacred, and tortured. Gazan’s and the 8 million Palestinians alive want Palestine back, every single inch of it, and will do anything, anywhere, anytime to get it back.

2- Christian Palestinians are not oppressed, they are our friends, and even family. We respect them and love them as our own.We stand side by side against the Zionist plans to build more settlements, and persistent attempts to cause tension and hatered between us. It is Israel who slaughters Palestinians in Bethlehem, who has relentlessly attacked Bethlehems holiest churches.

3- Gaza has not been this secure in months.Israel continues to humiliate Palestinians at checkpoints where they are left for weeks in corridors and sidewalks. Many women had to give birth on streets, with no healthcare because Israel would not allow any ambulance or help from the Red Cross and Cresent.
Israel continues to seal the borders out and in of Gaza. It controls the sea, borders, and airtraffic.

4- Palestinian have never had anything against Jews. Before the Zionist ever occuppied Palestine they were living side by side, Muslims, Christians and Jews. I respect Judiasm as a faith, and respect Jews, that is what Islam has taught me. Yet I do not respect those who have embraced the rasict ideology of Zionism, I stand with anyone who will support the Palestinian people in winning this war against this ideology that does not respect the quality of human life, morals and other beliefs.

Peace be upon you.

#80681 by Non Credo:

Um, lilmamzer: please see Mr. Fisher’s cartoon, appearing below a few days back, showing Olmert smugly squatting on his loathsome haunches atop a cage barely containing two mad dogs, “Hamas” and “Fatah”.

Saw it. The cartoonist did get one thing right: both Hamas and Fatah do, in fact, belong in cages.
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When you trap people in a tiny, hellish cage, they can easily turn on each other as they decend into starvation, futility, desperation, and madness.

The Arabs of Gaza have no right or privilege to enter Israel. That’s the prerogative of the government of the sovereign state of Israel. When the Arabs of Gaza stop lobbing missiles at Israeli towns and stop trying to infiltrate the border to kill Israeli civilians, things would be different. The only trap the Gazan Arabs are in is one of their own making. If your heart bleeds so much for them, why aren’t you over there now helping out? Such a passionate advocate for the Arabs. Or are they just a convenient talking point for you to beat up on the Jews (again, and again, and again)?
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That is the Jewish supremacist plan, of course. It’s called Zionism.

Yes, Zionism will take over the entire Middle East, and all 22 Arab nation-states.

And then the entire planet.

And then the solar system.

And after that the galaxy.

And then, of course, the entire universe.