What Israel fears most?

Confronting the truth about themselves.

Robert Scheer, Insight, intelligence, the unvarnished truth of Israeli occupation supported by the American taxpayer—- no wonder they fired you.  Any comments uncomplimentary to Israel including targeted assassinations, the Apartheid Wall, the unrelenting oppression, and yes, ETHNIC CLEANSING will cost one his job in the US.  The most dangerous occupation of all is the Israeli occupation of the US government.  They own every member of congress except Kucinich, Paul, and McDermott.  Keep speaking the unvarnished truth Robert Scheer.  Thank you!!!

Robert Scheer, Insight, intelligence, the unvarnished truth of Israeli occupation supported by the American taxpayer—- no wonder they fired you.  Any comments uncomplimentary to Israel including targeted assasinations, the Aparthied Wall, the unrelenting oppression, and yes, ETHNIC CLEANSING will cost one his job in the US.  The most dangerous occupation of all is the Israeli occupation of the US government.  They own every member of congress except Kucinich, Paul, and McDermott.  Keep speaking the unvarnished truth Robert Scheer.  Thank you!!!

Micah,

Thanks for the response, I stand corrected on the Charter of Hamas, that alledgedly requires the destruction of Israel.

In my own researching of the conflicts, I understand very well the “holocaust mentality” of the Jews of Israel, and accept it as any social-psychology of a people who had suffered mass extermination under the ideological destruction of Nazism, and related socio-political behaviors that have shaped world history. If there is one horror that most of the world, (and the U.S. population has been educated on, about, or around, is the Jewish Holocaust and Diaspora.) We all know its horrors, though growing up, I was never educated about the horrors of the slave trade, or how so many Africans came to be here, when nobody liked them. I read the Diary of Anne Frank when I was like 12 or so.

That said, I do understand the paranoia and neurosis of the Jews of Israel. I also believe that in the course of birthing their own state, they have perpetuated these very same crimes against the population they replaced. We can’t know of that, unless we are willing to look at the origins, and what has occurred since. This is what I’ve pointed out before, and what I’ve pointed out since. Israel is a NEW nation state, in terms this conflict. The creation of Israel in 1948 was supposed to provide the same status for the population that already lived there. It never happened. Rather, the new State of Israel began the expulsion of millions of Arabs. This did not happen yesterday, nor did it begin to happen 10 years ago. It’s been on going for all of this time. Since the 1967 War, (a pre-emptive attack by Israel) it’s obviously been worse.

So, when you say that another “nation” declares itself to be pledged to the destruction of it’s neighbor, it would be inaccurate, because “Gaza”, or the “Palestinian Authority” or the West Bank, or any of those places are actually “NATIONS”, and that’s the whole point. It’s been 60 years, and they STILL don’t have their own state, they are STILL subjected to miserable living conditions in camps. They STILL have no rights, (to jobs, education, food, health care, I could go on). The Palestinian Authority doesn’t hold any legal status at the U.N. Indeed, these “nations” that you claim are dedicated to the destruction of Israel are in fact a group of long disenfranchised people who have FORMED in response to this on-going age old repression. And ya know, at some point in time, people resist. It’s the basic social-psychological behavior of humans.

So, the Jewish paranoia of the early formation of Israel might be understandable. The post-traumatic syndromes of the Holocaust experience. But, they got carried away when they perpetrated the same horrors against others, based on some sense of entitlement. So now, the source of the paranoia is more basic….it’s the fundamental knowledge that if you are perpetrating these acts of violence and repression against someone else, they might just wanna retaliate. They have a rational concern that their repression will be turned against them.

Consequently, little tiny Israel is now armed to the teeth, with every imaginable weapon known to man, and the ONLY tiny group of people in the entire region, to be armed in such a manner. They have nukes, but have never committed to the Non-Proliferation Treaty. They want Palestinians to agree to “recognize” them, but they won’t put any of the “recognizable” parameters in writing.

Now, I don’t know if Thomas Friedman knows this stuff or not. So, I don’t know if he knows more about the Middle East than I do. I don’t think it matters since I wasn’t arguing any of his “flat world” points, even though I certainly agree with some of what he proposes.

I think my larger point is that even though the Jews had a real bad experience with the Holocaust and all, their “solution” has been to turn the same on another group, and common sense would dictate that conflict would result.

Comment #80166 by Michael Shaw on 6/21

Micheal… Thanks for the link & the article in your comment #80166.

BTW, I tried clicking on Charles’s link and I got a 404 error.

Charles I got a 404 error. No article. At least according to the server. I would like to point out that even though the US did nothing about the Lavi to China deal, they weren’t happy about the transaction either.

Thank you Charles!

http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0496/9604014.htm 

Pentagon, GAO Report Israeli Espionage And Illegal Technology Retransfer

Here’s an interesting article I discovered from The Association for Asian Research. It says for one thing that Russia and Israel are China’s biggest weapons providers. It also says Israel concealed an upgrade from the US on a system that went to China.
http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2477.html

80095 Charles, could you provide a link specifying the US OKed giving the Lavi to communist China? I would greatly appreciate that. Thanks!

Israel suffers from a soul sickness.

They would much rather be right than happy, ultimately they’re neither. When Israel confronts this truth and heals themselves w/out manipulating blame onto others,  a real Peace is possible.

But it seems that Peace is simply not profitable enough for Israel.

People seem to forget that Yitzak Rabin was assassinated by a Jew. A Jew who did not want to ever see a Palestinian state created adjacent to Israel. And that’s the ultimate problem. Israel on the surface promotes a “two state solution” but at its heart, given its core religious fundamental base, does not want to see a Palestinian state ever realized. The mentality of Israelis is that the Arab world would just love to see Israel “wiped off the map” if at all possible. Since the founding of Israel in 1948, Israelis have had good reason to be fearful of Arab animosity. And Israel did put it’s best foot forward in giving up land it acquired during the ‘67 war for peace. But Israel will never cede the entire West Bank for the creation of a Palestinian state. It won’t happen. And the religious zealotry in Israel won’t tolerate a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. With such hatred on both sides, how can you ever expect any peace? Worse, the United States has lost any credibility in trying to act as a mediator between the Palestinians and the Israelis. However, given the amount of money the U.S. does give to Israel, it could force Israel’s hand very quickly if it did cut off aid. But it will never happen. Organizations such as AIPAC are still too powerful and ensure that every President elected “keeps the money flowing” to Israel.

A Palestinian state will forever remain a pipe dream.

I continue to believe that any invocation of the “chosen people” epithet (humorous or serious) should be avoided by anyone not familiar with Ahad Ha-am’s analysis of the concept.  I first found it in Simon Noveck’s anthology CONTEMPORARY JEWISH THOUGHT under the title “Are Jews a Chosen People?”  Unfortunately, the listing of sources in this volume makes it difficult to trace what is clearly an excerpt back to the original text, either in the original Hebrew or in English translation.  Ahad Ha-am’s thesis is that the Jews were not chosen to develop the land of Canaan but to set an “example of conduct” to those already living in that land.  As I believe I mentioned in an earlier exchange of comments, the geopolitical institution of Israel does not have a particularly good track record in setting such examples, however much of a knowledge-based economy they may now be!

Thanks Robert! As always you make very valid points, particularly concerning AIPAC. No one on earth can legitimately deny western influence hasn’t had a major negative impact on Arabs, technologically and otherwise. See my next post to lilmamzer.

Also thanks for the article about Israeli collusion with communist China. That is a real eyeopener! Makes one wonder how many US secrets have been given to China too, especially in light of the recently discovered Israeli infiltrations into our own national security archives.

#79878 Well lilmamzer you present some legitimate arguments, I won’t deny that. Actually I did briefly mention cultural degradations to a degree. I also mentioned the lack in hi-tech numbers and the shunning of hi tech experts by their respective countries. But to deny that Western influence or the lack thereof has had no affect on them whatsoever regarding technology or education is preposterous.

Granted we could argue the reasons forever and find valid commentary supporting either notion. We could argue Arab countries are terror states controlled by kooky Islamic fundamentalists. But then again, to us anyone who doesn’t agree entirely with us or bow to us is a terror state. Israel seems to see it the same way. I won’t deny they have valid reasons. But causality must also play a role in this aspect. Israel and the US has done more to inspire radical Islamic fundamentalism than any other catalyst. When one has nothing left to turn to, all that’s left is religion.

When we look at all of the western inspired violence we(and others like Belgium, Holland, France, Italy, Britain Germany) have traditionally imposed on Arab nations, like the arming of Saddam and inspiring him to invade Iran while selling arms to Iran at the same time. The preemptive invasions and bombings of Lebanon, the first to remove PLO bases from Lebanon, the second over a few kidnapped Israeli soldiers, is yet another example. What was once a culturally advanced, almost European like society became in retrospect and on two different occasions, a pile of rubble. The Arab States like Saudi Arabia, the Emirates or Kuwait all have repressive regimes of their own backed by the US military. 

One needs only to see the logistics of our military bases scattered throughout the region to understand the true underlying goal. A technologically superior Israel is in our own best interests.

As for economics in general, Israel makes far less money than it spends and is totally dependent on US tax dollar earmarks to sustain itself. I’m not denying Israeli academia plays a giant role. In fact I admire it! What I’m saying is they have had every possible advantage given them by the west while in the same time line Arab’s have been been consistently denied and even intentionally placed at a disadvantage.

Comment #79872 by Michael Shaw on 6/20 at 9:13 pm

Hi Michael…your posts/comments are coherent and with much insight. Lets point out that Israel has free access to practically all of the U.S. technology. They can get it in one way or another. AIPAC and other American Jewish organizations are Israel & Israel’s interests guard dogs. Just take a look at all those neocons who were at the pentagon and other high places. Many are still out there.

A lot of the US technology is not given to the Arab countries. Israel & its powerful AIPAC will object.
WHO IS PAYING FOR ALL THIS? THE TAXPAYERS OF THESE UNITED STATES.
===================================================

Has Israel’s U.S.-Funded Lavi Jet Been Reborn as China’s J-10 Warplane?

By John Gee 04/07/2007

     
“A Taiwanese Defense Ministry official briefs reporters in Taipei Jan. 23 in front of a screen displaying China’s deployment of its newly developed J-10 fighters (AFP photo/Sam Yeh). 
     
CHINA HAS unveiled an aircraft that some observers suggest bears a suspicious resemblance to the Lavi, a jet that Israel developed in the 1980s and then decided not to produce. China says that the J-10 was designed and produced by the Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation. It entered service with the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) in 2004 and its existence was officially confirmed when the PLAAF issued photographs of the aircraft on Dec. 29, 2006. The official Chinese news agency, Xinhua, later distributed them.

The Lavi is like one of the undead in a vampire story: killed off, it obstinately refuses to be laid to rest.

Israel wanted to develop an advanced fighter aircraft of its own that would come into use in the 1990s. Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) took on the job. It was an ambitious project. Israel had previously produced the Kfir, but that was essentially an adaptation of the French Mirage III: the Lavi was intended to be Israel’s very own creation. As such, its production became a matter of national pride, and it also promised to enhance considerably IAI’s international standing.

Israel soon discovered that it needed U.S. cooperation, however, and therein lay the cause of the Lavi’s (possibly temporary) demise. It was not feasible for Israel to develop one of the world’s most sophisticated aircraft on a self-sufficient basis, as originally hoped. The Lavi project consequently involved joint research, the use of some U.S. components (such as Pratt and Whitney engines) and U.S. taxpayers’ money.

Some $1.3 billion of U.S. aid went into the Lavi before alarm bells went off in Washington: why was the U.S. paying Israel to develop and produce an aircraft that would compete on the international arms market with planes produced by its own companies and put American workers out of their jobs? The Reagan administration,  averse to putting pressure on Israel over issues such as stopping settlement construction in the West Bank, leaned on the Israeli government, which duly caved in: the Lavi project was cancelled in 1987.

There were reports soon after that both South Africa and China were interested in taking over the Lavi project, but those about China remained vague and unsubstantiated at the time. The South African connection seemed more probable, given the record of military cooperation between Israel and South Africa, which included work on developing nuclear weapons and Israeli help in the development of the Cheetah, a South African version of Israel’s Kfir fighter aircraft. Many Israeli technicians who had worked on the Lavi were reported to have migrated to South Africa.

The collapse of the apartheid regime rolled down the curtain on Israeli-South African military cooperation, and if there were any plans to create a South African version of the Lavi, that is when they would probably have been shredded.”

Here is the link to the rest of the article:

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/April_2007/0704042.html

#79872 by Michael Shaw:

I don’t believe however that all of the socio economic or geopolitical reasons behind this are being explored. For one thing most Arab cultures along with other developing countries have other priorities, some of those having been denied them by the west, like say nuclear energy for example, which is a necessary stepping stone to advanced technology.

The reasons for the relative stagnation in Arab countries has been studied for a long time, and it’s no secret. It has nothing to do with a denial by the west of any technology. It has to do with authoritarian, regressive, and closed economies, and am Arab work force that hasn’t been trained to compete in the global marketplace. That’s not the fault of the west. What kind of useful degree do you think an Egyptian can get at Al Azhar University? How can he market himself with a degree in Islamic Studies? And access to nuclear technology has nothing to do with Israel’s success in pharmaceuticals, digital communications, electro-optical technologies, breakthrough medical imaging technologies, agricultural science, and so on.
———————————-

I find myself wondering if this would change if only US corporations and universities devoted as much time with Arabs as they do with Israel.

Don’t blame American corporations. They will go where the economic climate is favorable to them. Why do you think Intel has a major R&D center in Israel, where they develop the latest processing chips? Politics? Of course not. It’s because Israel is a knowlege-based society and places value in research and academic excellence. Intel has no use for Islamic studies - it’s not what makes the digital age run.
—————————————-

I’d like to add many Arab countries are poor, thus they lack the financial ability to academically orient.

That’s a matter of cultural priorities, not financial resources. India pulled itself up by its bootstraps to become a technology giant, largely through it’s academic system. Same with Israel, especially during its early years when it was a struggling third-world economy. Finally, look at Saudi Arabia, awash in billions and billions of petro-dollars. Yet take away the revenue from oil, and they produce nothing of value for the rest of the world (or themselves, for that matter). Not an issue of financial resources, but of cultural priorities.
————————————

Arabs themselves realize that hi- technology must be a mandate in their respective societies.

High-tech is a by-product of a knowledge-based value system, not a goal. The endemic problems in Arab countries are so deep, aiming for high-tech industries without reforming internal cultural and societal factors which retard progress would be a waste of time.

#79647 Israel’s success vs the Arabs… I would like to say that lilmamzer has a point when he mentions Israeli technology being a factor in her success compared to Arab states. There are over 3000 hi tech companies and startups(only second to the US) in Israel and next to nil in the Arab world.

I don’t believe however that all of the socio economic or geopolitical reasons behind this are being explored. For one thing most Arab cultures along with other developing countries have other priorities, some of those having been denied them by the west, like say nuclear energy for example, which is a necessary stepping stone to advanced technology. There are several other reasons beyond this. One might argue Arabs use a lot of cell phones but they don’t design or manufacture them. Many hi tech Arab students(and there aren’t all that many) generally end up in foreign countries for guaranteed job security. They are also often frowned upon when they repatriate. For this reason many do not. Many Arab students don’t get involved in hi-tech because they know once they are laid off they won’t be able to find a job in their homeland, having no training in other areas and very sparse numbers of hi-tech employers.

I find myself wondering if this would change if only US corporations and universities devoted as much time with Arabs as they do with Israel. Alas we may never know. The same goes for all the money we give Israel, more than the combined amounts we give to every other benefactor.

I’d like to add many Arab countries are poor, thus they lack the financial ability to academically orient. Cultural restraints are also a factor and this of course cannot be blamed on Israel.

Still one has to wonder if the West devoted as much of its attentions to the Arab world as it did with Israel, things might be a bit more equalized today.

Sadly Western attention is more devoted to stealing Arab resources rather than propelling them into the age of hi-tech. I believe the bottom line is, “Why create more competition?” I’d also like to add it doesn’t take a doctorate in science to know you’re getting screwed. Arabs themselves realize that hi- technology must be a mandate in their respective societies.

#79818 by charles Barton:

Some people don’t get the joke.

And they never will.

#79815 by Matt:

Um, hello, lilmamzer? Any questions? Still wondering why we don’t like you and don’t respect you??

The only thing I wonder about is why you think I give a rat’s ass?

And in other news, Matt:

U.S. to increase military aid to Israel in decade-long deal  04:20 21/06/2007    

By Aluf Benn and Shmuel Rosner, Haaretz Correspondents

The United States will increase its military assistance to Israel and sign a new agreement securing American aid to the country for the next decade, President George W. Bush announced Tuesday following his meeting with Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. According to the existing arrangement, most of the grant is meant for procurement from the U.S. industry, and Israel is allowed to spend 26.7 percent of the military assistance in shekel purchases for acquisitions from local defense industries.

In its announcement, the U.S. reiterated that the increased funds will allow Israel to deal with the new challenges it faces and to ensure a “qualitative military edge.”
==================

Matt, the joke’s on you.

cyrena Some great points in there, especially about national borders. I imagine that because of these borders, or rather the lack thereof, most people don’t even realize that Israel and the United States have no internationally legal or signed alliance. Only verbal commitment.

Many years ago, I was working as a electronic circuit designer specializing in hybrids for military applications.

In that capacity, I had significant dealings with Israeli engineers dealing with missiles and rockets.

Because they were directly working on projects affecting the security of their homeland, I understood their dedication.

What I could not understand was the dismissive way they treated myself and other engineers who were helping them with their requested designs and manufactured circuits.

After several months, I became sufficiently close to one of them to ask him why many of them treated us as they did. His answer was short, and chilling.

We weren’t the chosen people.

Quoting micah #79587 directly(I didn’t change any typos) this is the statement

“Democratic elections and governments are the provence nation-states operating under contracts, implicit and explicit, of the international community”

This is a dangerously incomplete observation, in respect to contracts and the international community. It happens because people like to avoid certain aspects of these alleged “contracts”, and don’t want to follow the issue back to it’s origin, which was the creation of the state of Israel, by the U.N., back some 60 years ago. SINCE that time, Israel has violated more of International law, conventions, treaties, etc, than could be recounted in a single volume of anything less than encyclopedia style. So, I won’t go there. But, any person wanting to have an intellectual discussion that involves “contracts” and such, needs to start at the beginning, not just wherever you want to “pick” a place/event/statement from which to develop an argument, and leave all the rest unaddressed.

That brings me to the rest of the “observation”: (here again, I didn’t fix the grammer, and there’s no point to the logic)

“If a nation of people elect a government that is pledged to the destruction of its militarily superior neighbor, those contracts are broken up that nation’s new government taking power.”

This thing about Palestine’s allegiance or “pledge” to the concept of the “destruction of Israel” is seemingly very difficult for me to pin down, and not for lack of trying. But the fact of the matter is, that while this mindset is consistently attributed (by main steam media) to all of Israel’s alleged “enemies”, meaning all of the surrounding Arab nations, and a few non-Arab ones to boot, (Iran comes to mind) I just can’t find anything other than age old rhetoric that has been around since the initial takeover and expulsion of all those millions of Arabs, from what had been Palestine.

And, that’s exactly what I hear, when Middle Eastern leaders or whomever, make statements like “Israel should be wiped off the map”. I hear rhetoric that obviously isn’t meant to be taken literally now, any more than the Arabs have EVER been capable of wiping Israel off the map, or somehow managing to literally destroy it as a state. That’s stupid, and I’m sick of hearing people repeat it out of context to what it literally means in the Arab world. The way this is reiterated by the media and by Israel apologists, is like Hamas, or Hezbollah, or any of the other groups of Arab resistance in the past century, have drawn up some sort of documentor charter, or whatever, that explicitly states it’s mission statement to be the destruction of Israel, and everybody signs it in blood. NO!! There is no such thing, and there is NO organized mentality among the Arabs or anybody else in the region, to DESTROY ISRAEL. If that were the case, Israel would be destroyed. It’s not.
The continuation of this complaint by Israel (more current) is that Hamas and the others “refuse to recognize Israel, or refuse to recognize Israel’s right to exist”. It always misses the most important part of it’s demand to be “recognized”. That is, WHAT do they want the rest of the region and international community to “recognize”, when they don’t even have a flippin’ CONSTITUTION, that would lay out the borders they are demanding recognition of? Where’s the contract? (Constitution) Where are the maps? Exactly WHAT parts of that region, are the rest of us supposed to sign on to (the international community) as WHAT is “Israel”? How about some geographical coordinates, just for starters, so that we all know what is deemed as “recognizable” to Israel. It’s been 60 years now.

Abbas accuses Damascus-based Hamas’ Khaled Meshaal of complicity in a plot to assassinate him. Hamas hurls counter-charge

June 20, 2007, 9:08 PM (GMT+02:00)

In a televised speech Wednesday, Abbas referred to the planting last month of 250 kg of explosives in a tunnel under a road traveled by his convoy. He said he had sent to every Arab government video tapes of Hamas operatives filmed in the act. The Palestinian leader ruled out dialogue with the “murderous” Hamas movement and cancelled their passports and citizenship.

Hamas spread word in Gaza claiming to possess secret documents allegedly showing Fatah officers whom Israeli intelligence was said to have sent for training in Pakistan as cover for missions to bring back photographs of Pakistan’s nuclear facilities.
====================

Three Qassam missiles explode in Sderot and Kibbutz Nir Am Wednesday night. Two Israelis slightly injured, 7 in shock

June 20, 2007, 10:20 PM (GMT+02:00)

Jihad Islami in Gaza took responsibility for the attack, the third in a day. Earlier, a missile landed in the Ashkelon national park north of Gaza and in the morning Sderot was hit. The Israeli air force targeted the Palestinian launchers in Gaza.

Missile attacks from Gaza on Sderot and its environs slowed down last week during the fraternal fighting between Hamas and Fatah. A new law passed by the Knesset Wednesday grants the towns and villages bordering the Gaza Strip the status and benefits of front-line locations.
=========================

Abbas gets nowhere in bid for Syria’s Assad to condemn Hamas coup d’etat in Gaza

June 19, 2007, 4:26 PM (GMT+02:00)

Voices were raised in their two-hour telephone conversation Sunday, June 17. Mahmoud Abbas asked the Syrian president to follow in his father’s footsteps and recognize a single Palestinian authority, the PLO and himself as its head, while treating Hamas as an occupying force in Gaza. His first step should be to denounce Hamas’ coup d’etat.

When Assad did not immediately agree, Abbas threatened to publicly expose Syria’s active role in abetting Hamas’ takeover of the Gaza Strip.

Assad finally agreed to talk further with an Abbas emissary to Damascus. This did not work out either. The PLO executive member Abbas Zaki, who is in charge of Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon, was sent post-haste to the Syrian capital where the President declined to receive him. Foreign minister Walid Moallem, who did, said he would pass his message on.

Taking this as a brush-off, Abbas turned for support to Syrian opposition Muslim Brotherhood leader in exile Sadr e-Din Bayouni. In Cairo, however, the Muslim Brotherhood leader Muhammed Mahdi Aqef came out openly behind Hamas, its Palestinian offshoot, breaking away from the official Egyptian line which has led to the severance of ties with Hamas and a decision to relocate the Egyptian diplomatic mission to Ramallah, the Fatah government’s capital.
============================

Let’s give them their own state!

#79726 by Stephen,

Thanks so much for the excellent post. I appreciate hearing different experiences at different times, and from different perspectives.

I have pretty much reached the same conclusions, but you’ve articulated them much better than I could.

As I may have written previously, I taught at the Technion (otherwise known as the Israel Institute of Technology) from the fall of 1971 through the summer of 1973.  I suppose that means that I was planting the seeds of the current knowledge-based economy when most Americans were financing the planting of trees!  It also means that I was living in Israel between the 1967 and 1973 wars.

Since I had (have?) a real EPATER LE BOURGEOIS attitude, upon my return to the United States, I would sometimes respond to those inevitable “What was it like?” questions with some wise-ass aphorism about going to Israel being the best way to understand anti-Semitism.  Today I would dismiss that kind of crack as mean-spirited rhetoric;  but I would probably also reflect on the origins of such a vitriolic attitude.  I would have to admit that, of all the places I have resided, Israel probably had the strongest CULTURE OF HATRED I had ever experienced.

This revealed itself in all sorts of ways.  One of the more innocuous examples was the standard greeting for a new arrival, always uttered rapidly in a single breath:  “How do you like it here?  We won’t be angry if you say you don’t!”  (Translation:  Be VERY careful what you say about this place!)  Less innocuous was the dehumanizing bureaucracy that penetrated every aspect of both working and leisure life.  Yes, there is no doubt that this was the country of a culture that had suffered offenses in just about every century of its recorded history;  but it was also a country whose sacred texts did not include that passage about turning the other cheek.

Perhaps the very earliest Zionists envisioned a utopia in which different cultures could coexist without fear of persecution, but that vision did not last very long.  My personal opinion is that it was wiped out by the Balfour Declaration, which essentially legitimatized the sense of entitlement to the “Promised Land” that is now the foundation of Zionism.  (Note that this means that it happened before the atrocities of the Holocaust.)  What I now call a culture of hatred was basically spawned by the arrogance of entitlement.

These are the “axioms” from which we can “deduce” the values and motives of today’s Palestinian culture.  With their knowledge-based economy the Israeli’s pride themselves on their keen logical minds.  Keen as those minds may be, however, they still cannot cope with the basic syllogisms that account for the mess in their midst!

RE:Ernest Canning.
I agree with everything you said.  But I think the play book is thicker than that.  As long as the region is destabilised its people will be wholly dependendent on outside economic and political interests (i.e. U.S., China, Europe, Russia, et al).  This is no different from Central Europe around the Thirty Years War, Africa in the 19th Century or Latin America in the 20th.  Economic/Power Cartels (the true antagonist) never profit from a strong, independent, self-realized people or nation state - no matter where its intentions lie - and that includes this one.

I’m more inclined to look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-HvtfKJfYE

This is but one more wall of many walls in placed to deny Palestine of it’s own state and its own autonomy. The results are as clear as the intent. More bloodshed and more theft.

#79655 by nahida:

peace

The Hamas version of peace? 

No thanks.

Peace to me doesn’t include genocidal Islamic jihad.

Your call for ‘peace’ rings very hollow after posting crap like this:

“Oh mighty Israhell
With the mountains of lies you fabricate…”

Let me guess - you can’t even see the irony in that.

“And the servants of The Most Gracious are those who walk on the earth in humility, and when the ignorant address them, they say, “Peace!” Quran; (25:63)

“Show forgiveness, speak for justice and avoid the ignorant.” Quran; (7:199)

lilmamzer

peace

#79644 by nahida

Then… I promise
I’d do what the prophet did
In your ear I’d whisper
“Go, now I forgive you
You are free
The treasure I hold
I am willing to share”

I got news for you -

1) Nobody cares what your ‘prophet’ Mohammed did - sorry, just a fact. We just care that you leave all those who don’t give a rat’s ass about Mohammed alone already. Your Jihad is totally fucked up.

2) We don’t need you to set us free - it’s done and you had nothing to do with it.

3) You have no treasure that anyone else wants, believe me.

#79644 by nahida:

With the glittery lavish wealth you generate
Do you think you could
Buy a few joyful days similar to mine

Israel is a success because it has a knowlege-based economy - its universities produce leading-edge research in useful fields, unlike any universities in any Arab country, including any in “Palestine”, which isn’t even a country. The graduates have useful and productive skills, unlike any graduate from Bir Zeit or any other Arab “university”. You just can’t blame that sad fact on the Jews. Its press is wide open and free, resulting in the widest spectrum of debate and opinion available anywhere in the Middle East. Again, unlike in any Arab country. You can’t blame any Jew for that.

As for you having “joyful days” - that’s a crock of shit. You seem to be the most miserable person I’ve yet seen post on Truthdig. Cheers.

Oh mighty Israhell

With the mountains of lies you fabricate
Do you think you could
Secure a fear-free moment akin to my years?
No… you can’t

With the glittery lavish wealth you generate
Do you think you could
Buy a few joyful days similar to mine
No… you can’t

With all the armed robberies you facilitate
Do you think you could
Steal one magnificent dream that I embrace?
No… you can’t

With the entire mighty power you accumulate
Do you think you could
Obtain a piece of peace that fills my soul?
No… you can’t

Oh poor mighty Israhell
What have you done?
Wake up… WAKE UP… WAKE UP

Wait no longer… just … come running
Rinse your sins
Wash the blood off your hands
Repentant… and on your knees fall to the ground and… pray

Then… I promise
I’d do what the prophet did
In your ear I’d whisper
“Go, now I forgive you
You are free
The treasure I hold
I am willing to share”

Tony B.  The US and Israel, led by Elliot Abrams, had already exercised the “Salvador Option” in Gaza by funding and arming Fatah death squads.  See http://www.democracynow.org/print.pl?sid=07/06/15/1428213

That option failed when Hamas defeated Fatah in Gaza.  Now there is talk of an IDF invasion.

I watched Bush’s remarks on BBC World Service Television (by way of PBS) yesterday afternoon;  and, as usual, my capacity for “linguistic microstrategy” was in full gear.  I found myself particularly rankled when he insisted on characterizing the newly installed (not elected) Palestinian Prime Minister with that little clause, “who is a good fellow,” as if that was all that really mattered.  I suppose I needed to be reminded, once again, that our President still reduces everything to a Manichaean battle between good and evil (in which he, alone except for his direct line to God, seems to be privy to what gets classified as which).  You really have to wonder just how much information about Fayyad has been provided in any of the recent Presidential Daily Briefings (or, for that matter, how much time the President spends reading and digesting those Briefings).

Mr. Scheer invoked Marx (who attributed it to Hegel but scholars are still scrambling to find the source) in arguing that the Palestinians need to make their own history.  That passage comes from the same Marx source as the one where he talks about history repeating in such a way that what is tragedy the first time around becomes farce the second.  Bush’s reduction of Fayyad to “a good fellow” reminds us of his similar good-and-evil assessment after his first meeting with Putin.  As Politkovskaya kept trying to tell the world, Putin was up to his eyeballs in making his own tragedies;  and it took someone like Bush to turn it around into farce (albeit a gruesome one).  It would be fair to say that the Palestinians have known only tragedy for the entirety of my lifetime, and I can only shudder to think what kind of farce American policy may be cooking up for them.

Israel is its own worst enemy.
No friends, just resentments, acrimony distrust and hate. Good job Israel and just think, you’ve no one to thank but yourselves.
What’s really tragic, we’ve been infected now too.

Instead of going into a new and very challenged century w/esteemable hope we’re being dragged down into a dark, draconian hole w/out a flashlight.

Yes indeed, this does sum it up very, very, well. I’m saving it to my reference files.

Paradoxically enough, (and standard operating procedure for the Cabal) George and Olmert did their best to try to spin the Hamas victory as a victory for themselves.  This from the Times Magazine and MASSIMO CALABRESI in Washington:

Somehow, the Bush team has managed to cast the takeover of Gaza by Hamas as a diplomatic opportunity for the U.S., Israelis and Palestinians. On Monday, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice announced a resumption of aid to the emergency government of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas — whose supporters Hamas ousted in Gaza — and said, “We must take hold of this moment to make new progress.”

Now, that was Monday. The next day, in his meeting with Olmert, (who sure got over here in a hurry) George said this:

“And our hope is that President Abbas and that Prime Minister Fayyad, who is a good fellow, will be strengthened to the point where they can lead the Palestinians in a different direction, with a different hope.”

Now, based on that, my legitimate fear is that they will do everything in their power, (this dangerous duo of U.S. and Israeli policy) to squeeze the remaining life out of Hamas and by extension, the Palestinians of Gaza. This whole fanfare about releasing all of the “aid”, (but only to the Abbas government, allegedly for the West Bank) is really nothing more than a different shade of fig leaf,  to finally distribute what they’ve been illegally denying all of the Palestinians, as punishment for electing Hamas.

So, the nightmare hasn’t ended yet, but I’m still holding out hope.

The article says, “The experience of the Palestinians was not unlike that of the Jews:  they were needed but scorned for their talents.”

It seems like the thinking of the adversaries of both groups runs the opposite:  How can we get them out of here?

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up, Mr. Sheer.  I wouldn’t expect any change in the near future.  Elliot Abrahms is in town.  And let’s not forget John Negroponte’s “Salvadoran Option”.  Latin America hasn’t.  Maybe someday Israelis and Palestinians will realize their respective leadership doesn’t really have their best interest in mind.  Hell, maybe Americans will figure that out as well.  But don’t mind me.  I’m an anarcho-syndicalist.
BTW, caught you on “Left, Right and Center”.  I admire your intestinal fortitude.  A little too much “Scooter”-philia for my taste.  Anyone else think the show would be better suited with the title:“Reactionary, Center-Right and Reasonable”?

The Israelis timing was off.  They wanted to run a colonial system at a time (after World War II) when the global zeitgeist had changed.