Well, I’ve been reading these interesting and educational(?) exchanges between the lil mamzer, and Robert and Michael, and even the responses to me. (one of which I’d missed earlier).
#81916 by lilmamzer on 6/27 at 4:34 pm

•  Now that we’ve cleared up that misconception, do you believe the Holocaust is not an event worthy of being remembered?

This misconception that she was “clearing up” for me, had to do with my misunderstanding of the 5.25 Jews that she was referring to, with the “never again” Zionist slogan. I thought she was talking about the Holocaust, and she was talking about the current population of pure Jews in the State of Israel,  because she says that the “Arab terrists” have signed a charter to kill them all.

So, that’s how we somehow got to this latest question that she has for me; “Do I believe that the Holocaust is –not- an event worthy of being remembered?” It’s a contorted sort of a sentence, but the simple answer is of course not. First of all, just how in the hell is anybody allowed to FORGET it, even if they WANTED to?

The world has been paying the price for what Hilter and his Nazis did to the Jews ever since they did it. Hard to forget. And, ANY person, with ANY exposure to the U.S. or European educational system over the past 60 years, has certainly been well schooled on the importance of this “event”. And no, neither my own or any other opinions that I have seen or heard, have suggested that this “event” is not worthy of remembrance. So, it was a stupid question, but I will say again, that I have never suggested that. Indeed, the Holocaust should be remembered by the entire world, as a “never again” event. Never again, will the rest of the world standby, and allow a pack of psychopathic mad men to genocide an entire population of HUMANS, no matter what their ethnic, racial, or “class” identity happens to be.

But…alas, somehow the Zionists of the world haven’t considered that in relation to any “group”, other than themselves, since they have been involved in the exact same activity, (genocide and apartheid) ever since that event that she wants us to remember.

So yep, most of us DO in fact see the Holocaust as an event worth remembering, but obviously, the Zionists don’t get the same “message” from the memory. They mean “never again” should it happen to “us- the children of Israel”, but we can sure feel free to wipe out anybody else, and we’ve proven that, for the past 60 years. So there.

Aside from that, I actually do appreciate the Hebrew lesson, though t’was NOT lilmamzer that provided it. Rather, Fadel happened to give us that translation. I will remember it though lilmam, so go ahead, put it on the next exam as a “bonus” question, and I bet I’ll get it right.

Comment #82132 by ITW on 6/28 at 9:34 am

“You continually ignore that, and lie about other posters here.  It took you HOW LONG to finally figure out what Lilmamzer’s name meant?  All this time you’ve been hurling every conceivable vile combo you could think of and never figured out that it ALREADY meant “Little Bastard”.”

————————————————-

ITW…Why don’t go to the “Welcome to “Palestine”” thread, by Robert Fisk and see where I got the details of what “MAMZER” meant in Hebrew… a “BASTARD”.

Check out comment #81971 by Fadel on 6/27 at 7:36 pm. He is a linguist and apparently he knows Hebrew.

So there you go…ITW. That is where I found out and when I found out about the meaning for “MAMZER” to be a “BASTARD”.

BTW, I don’t know any Hebrew.

You are getting more confused and making a fool of yourself. Its written all over your posts.

Take another vacation!

Comment #82262 by ITW on 6/28 at 8:11 pm.

ITW, I have traveled & worked in the Middle-East for 3 years. I saw many churches and synagogues all over the place. People went to worship on their own free will and out in the open. I saw it with my own eyes over & over.

Why don’t you stop your damn lies and start telling the truth for a change. You can’t even tell the truth to the people on this thread regarding your post “this will be my only post on this thread”.

When are you going to start telling the truth? You are “blowing a lot of hot wind.”

Here is something for you & the readers of truthdig to read regarding the Jewish community, rabbis, synagogue, businesses, fancy expensive homes…etc…in Syria. 

******************************************************
DISILLUSIONED SYRIAN JEWS ARE TRICKLING BACK HOME
By Kim Murphy TIMES staff writer
The Los Angeles Times,
World Report

“For me, I wanted to find out what kind of life I could live somewhere else, said the 29 year old teacher at the Jewish school in the heart of old Damascus. Kosher meat shops and fine-tailored clothing stores were up for sale. Gracious old houses—the classic Dama-scene townhouses hidden in the city’s ancient alleys, their intricate tile court-yards draped with shade trees and hanging vines were passed on to the few friends or family members who stayed behind, or sold to Muslims.

You must remember, Jatati said, ‘our people, our community used to have the best cars, the best shops right in the center of Damascus. One man had a shop worth 20 million Syrian pounds [about $450,000]. He sold it for 6 million [about $133,000]. You must realize his position.

Over the last 18 months, a population of perhaps 3,800 Syrian Jews has shrunk to just 300 in Damascus and 100 or so in the northeastern town of Kamishli. But now, over the last few weeks, the sound of sad farewells has given way to noise of welcoming celebrations. The shutters are opening on closed-up Jewish houses. Slowly but surely, many of those who left are finding that life in Brooklyn and France was not what they had hoped for, and they are coming home.

Yousef Jajati, head of the Syrian Jewish community, expects that many more will be returning over the next several months, reflecting a growing disillusionment with life abroad and reaffirming ties to a nation that has been their homeland for more than two millenia.”

http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-news-0056.html

Lilmamzer, an ideology that sets one race over all others, be it Nazi ideology which values Aryans uber alles or Zionist ideology that values Jews over all others is an ideology grounded in racism. 

If you could take off your ideological blinders for a moment, you would see, as I do, many striking similarities between the 20th Century Warsaw Ghetto and the 21st Century ghetto known as Gaza.  Both entail vast overcrowding within a relatively tiny geographic entity.  The walling in of the oppressed, and vastly underfed, masses within its boundaries.  Both ghetto’s were the product of racist ideologies which have produced ethnic cleansing.

I would grant you that the one distinction that remains is that Israel has never proposed a “final solution” to the Palestinian problem, though your fellow Zionist Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach came close to it when he suggested that Palestinian children did not have a right to live.  But the world should not have to wait for a “final solution” before condemning Israel’s form of apartheid.  The world has every right to insist that Israel, like all other nations, abide by U.N. Resolutions—242 in particular.

You can go on and on about alleged Palestinian atrocities just as Robert can go on an on about Israeli atrocities.  The bottom line is that the way to peace is within the grasp of the nation with the world’s fourth most powerful military force—Israel.  Too bad, its short-sighted leaders are more interested in expanding settlements and maintaining occupation than they are in the rule of law.

Ill-lie-bastard…this thread is not about synagogues, churches, mosques, temples and places of worship.

If people go to practice their religion in the US and they want to put flags in front of their place of worship, that is perfectly ok.

I don’t judge people according to their faith. There are good people of faith & bad ones everywhere on this earth.

I believe that ALL people should have equal rights. No one should be considered superior or inferior because of his/her faith/religion status.

IN ISRAEL IF A PERSON IS JEWISH, HE/SHE IS FIRST CLASS CITIZEN. IF A PERSON IS MOSLEM OR A CHRISTIAN, HE/SHE IS 3RD OR 4TH CLASS CITIZEN.

These are facts. I have seen the harsh treatments that the Israelis dish out on the Palestinians (Christians and Moslems). It is pure RACISM.

So “ill-lie-bastard” only a hard core infected zionist would approve of Israel’s racist and Apartheid policies/laws.

#82181 by Robert:

MAMZER(BASTARD)- Your posts are just pure zionist garbage. They are clusters of trash; you have nothing but IDF garbage to post. You could be their computer “garbage” nerd.

Yes, but do you think my posts are garbage?
————————

Your IDF department must be paying by the # of posts and/or clusters? Your posts are NOT even worth a red cent!

If my posts aren’t worth a red cent, why are my Zionist-Racist IDF Conspiracy paychecks so damn big??? I think I’ll buy another Lexus tomorrow…...
————————-

Keep your zionist lies and propaganda clusters flowing “ill-lie-bastard”. You do glow with all sorts of zionist colors on this thread!

Will do, Robert.
So what are the “zionist colors”, anyway?
—————————

Just think how much information has been posted for the readers of truthdig to read and further their knowledge.

I’m thinking….......OK, done.
Yes, knowledge is a good thing.
—————————-

We have seen your garbage & lies!

Haven’t you said this before?
——————————

Robert, is there a synagogue near where you live? You should go there and have a look around. Look in the main sanctuary, the big room where services are held. Look up to the front and you will see an American flag (if you go to a synagogue in the US, of course) next to an Israeli flag. Every synagogue in the country will have this. That is the ZIONIST Israeli flag. Representing the ZIONIST State of Israel. In every Jewish house of worship, in every state in the union, all over the world, in fact.

Is that garbage and lies?

Comment #82169

MAMZER(BASTARD)- Your posts are just pure zionist garbage. They are clusters of trash; you have nothing but IDF garbage to post. You could be their computer “garbage” nerd.

Your IDF department must be paying by the # of posts and/or clusters? Your posts are NOT even worth a red cent!

Keep your zionist lies and propaganda clusters flowing “ill-lie-bastard”. You do glow with all sorts of zionist colors on this thread!

You and your posts do serve a purpose. Just think how much information has been posted for the readers of truthdig to read and further their knowledge. The truth has NOT been coming from your zionist propaganda…“ill-lie-bastard”!

We have seen your garbage & lies!

#82159 by Robert:

These bloody terrorists were welcomed in the US as leaders from an Israeli people election process. The Israeli people chose their own terrorists!

You sound so miserable. So wrapped up in a seething rage.

What are you going to do to make things better?

#82159 by Robert:

The attacks came after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas ordered the disbanding of all Palestinian armed groups.

This is the part that is notable. When Abbas orders all “Palestinian armed groups” (AKA Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al Aksa Martyr’s Brigade, etc) to disband, you can be sure nothing will happen.

Finally Israel hits back hard after taking so many rockets the past week.

June 27, 2007

Israeli Attack on Gaza Kills 13, Wounds 45

“In Israel and the Occupied Territories, the toll from Israel’s attack on Gaza Wednesday has reached thirteen dead, with another forty-five people wounded. The dead included a twelve-year old boy. Israeli tanks backed by warplanes pushed at least a mile into the Gaza Strip in the largest operation since Hamas seized full control earlier this month. The attacks came after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas ordered the disbanding of all Palestinian armed groups. Abbas aide Yasser AbedRabbo said the Israeli attack will guarantee Palestinian militants reject Abbas’ order to put down their arms. Hamas has offered a long-term truce with Israel in return for a contiguous Palestinian state in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. But Israeli parliament member Ephraim Sneh said the attacks will continue until Hamas renounce violence and recognize Israel’s “right to exist.””
***********************************************
Just Casual News of the day:

13 Palestinian civilians dead, the dead included a 12 year old Palestinian boy.

Imagine if 13 Israelis got killed and 45 wounded, what do you think the news headlines would be?

Just a guess…“Palestinian terrorists, suicide bombers/Jihadists, massacre Jewish women & children…etc…”  Just a guess…! Of course this will be non-stop all day!

—————————————————————-

BTW, Israel elected four (4) prime ministers who were terrorists, belonged to zionist terrorist organizations:

Ben-Gorion, Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir and Ariel Sharon.

Menachem Begin headed the IRGUN, the terrorist organization (1930-1940’s). The massacre at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem (1946) with 91 people killed and the massacre of the Palestinian village of Deir Yasin (1948) of more than 200 Palestinian women & children murdered by the Irgun.

The Israeli people elected these bloody murderous killers to be their government leaders. The blood of thousands of innocent civilians is dripping from their evil bloody hands.

These bloody terrorists were welcomed in the US as leaders from an Israeli people election process. The Israeli people chose their own terrorists!

#82139 by Michael Shaw:

Also how can acts of terror ever end since they have been a part of the world since the beginning of civilization?

Does France send suicide bombers into Spain to blow up Madrid city busses?

Does the United States fire rocket barrages over the border into Toronto, Canada?

Does Poland send teams of gunmen to shoot up cars on the German autobahns?

If the good people of France, the United States, and Poland can contain themselves, surely one has to believe that Palestinian Arabs also have the capacity, somewhere and somehow, to stop the terror emanating from their midsts.

#82139 by Michael Shaw:

So you honestly believe if the Palestinians accept Israel as a state all hostilities will end?

No, what I said was that all Arab belligerants must accept Israel as a neighbor with whom they will peacefully coexist, not just the Palestinian Arabs. The neighboring Arab stets have been using the Palestinian Arab issue as a tool for internal domestic reasons for decades. It pays for their respective regimes to keep the Palestinian issue alive rather than solving it to distract public attention from their own problems with governance.
———————

Arafat was prepared to do that and yet now he is dead and the bloodshed continues.

Arafat was never prepared to make real peace with Israel. Remember the Karine-A? The only ones who push that tired line about Arafat ready to make a peace deal are those who maintain the fiction that it’s always the fault of Israel and never the Arabs. President Clinton and everyone else at Camp David have attested to the fact that Arafat would always weasel out of every chance make a deal. It became clear that his mission was “the struggle”, to use a carelessly benign euphemism, rather than achieving something tangible and historic for his people.

======================

THERE - FIXED IT

#82139 by Michael Shaw:

No, what I said was that <b>all Arab belligerants must accept Israel as a neighbor with whom they will peacefully coexist, not just the Palestinian Arabs. The neighboring Arab stets have been using the Palestinian Arab issue as a tool for internal domestic reasons for decades. It pays for their respective regimes to keep the Palestinian issue alive rather than solving it to distract public attention from their own problems with governance.
———————

Arafat was prepared to do that and yet now he is dead and the bloodshed continues.

Arafat was never prepared to make real peace with Israel. Remember the Karine-A? The only ones who push that tired line about Arafat to make a peace deal are those who maintain the fiction that it’s always the fault of Israel and never the Arabs.

#82116 by Robert:

MAMZER in HEBREW means BASTARD. So your posting name means “Little Bastard”. 

So glad my nom de plume (or should it be my nom de guerre?) meets with your approval. There is a method to my madness, you know.

We will teach you a little Hebrew yet.
——————————

That really fits your zionist vile!

My “zionist vile” WHAT?

You can’t end a sentence on that adjective - it doesn’t make any sense.

Please revise and re-submit.

Lilmamzer 81915

So you honestly believe if the Palestinians accept Israel as a state all hostilities will end? What about those on both sides who see opportunity in the violence? Also how can acts of terror ever end since they have been a part of the world since the beginning of civilization?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/05/12/arafat.israel/index.html

Arafat was prepared to do that and yet now he is dead and the bloodshed continues.

Hey ill-“mamzer”...someone on another thread has given the Hebrew translation to your posting name “MAMZER”.

MAMZER in HEBREW means BASTARD. So your posting name means “Little Bastard”. 

That really fits your zionist vile!

Comments #82014; #82017 by ITW on 6/27

ITW…your vile rhetoric is nothing but absolute rigid zionism to the core. Israel has annexed the expanded boundaries of East Jerusalem. Its boundaries are on the edges of Bethlehem. Pretty soon East Jerusalem’s city limits will reach Hebron and other Palestinian towns and villages. Not a bad land gobbling zionist scheme…eh!

International Law & UN Resolutions are there for a purpose whether you or anyone likes them or not. If Israel claims to be a democratic country & part of the international community, then it must abide by international law & UN Resolutions.

ITW…Who has killed more lives? Is it Hamas or Israel? To help you out with the numbers, check out my comment #81619 on 6/26. Hamas, the Palestinians are resisting Israel’s brutal/zionist occupation with what ever they have. May be you think or believe that Palestinian/Arab blood is not equal to Jewish blood…just like Israel’s IDF believes?

If Hamas had 50% of Israel’s weapons, would they have any suicide bombers or use that method? Now would they?

If Israel would dismantle its brutal & total (pre-June 1967) occupation of the Palestinian people would there be violence and killing to what has been going on in the last 2-3 decades? 

ITW…you left out the #‘s of Israel’s military weapon arsenals…why? Just think if the Palestinians had what Israel has to defend their towns, cities, people, schools, women & children, their land, their freedom & dignity. Israel is occupying & brutalizing an unarmed Palestinian people.

What would you do if armed thugs were occupying your home and killed your wife & children and you had no weapons to defend yourself & family…no police…nothing?  What would you do? Can you think rationally?

Shouldn’t the Palestinian people have a normal life? Are they not entitled to have their Human Rights & FREEDOM?

#82073 by Ernest Canning:

Nahida, elsewhere on this site, I noted the many similarities between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto.  I noted how Ironic that the children and grandchildren of the victims of Nazi oppression have now become the oppressors, walling in the Palestinians within the overcrowded piece of real estate just as the Germans once walled in the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto.

Zionism is not Nazism. The fact that someone (Ernest, Nahida, Fadel, Cyrena, Billy The Dick, “Robert”, take your pick of the litter) can compare an ideology espousing Jewish self-determination with an ideology obsessed with the elimination of Jews shows the extent to which the debate about human rights has lapsed into absurd, thoughtless slogans.

The Gazan Arabs have isolated themselves by choosing a genocidal terrorist group, Hamas, as their government. No nation on the planet would open its borders to Gazan Arabs if they were neighbors. To hold Israel to a standard no other nation would be held to is a case prima facie bigotry.

The power to change the dynamics of this situation rests with the people of Gaza. The nation of Israel is not accountable for the terrorism that emanates from within Gaza and poses a mortal threat not only to Israeli civilians but to Egyptians as well. I refer to the editorial columns I have excerpted from the Egyptian press in recent posts. Furthermore, the Arab brothers in Egypt want no part of Gaza either. Why won’t Egypt open her borders to the Gazan Arabs? Are they obligated to by any laws? Certainly not by the natural law of self-preservation.

GOOD NEWS FROM ISRAEL
Amid all the incessant chatter denigrating Israel and the idea of self-determination for the Jewish people in their own homeland, this little news item should remind the Israel-haters that she isn’t going anywhere.
===========================
Updated June 28, 2007 13:35
Aliya from North America Increasing
By JPOST.COM STAFF

The Aliyah Department of the Jewish Agency for Israel anticipates a five to 10 percent increase in aliya from North America by the end of 2007, marking the largest aliya from that region in a quarter century, the Jewish Agency reported Thursday.

In 2006, 3,200 Americans and Canadians moved to Israel and adopted Israeli citizenship, the highest figure since 1983.

On Monday, some 300 New York area residents who plan to move to Israel this summer will participate in a farewell ceremony hosted by the Jewish Agency in Manhattan, in conjunction with the Israel Consulate. Israel’s Ambassador to the UN Dan Gillerman is scheduled to address the group. Similar farewell events have already been been held this month in Toronto, Boston, Miami, and Rockville, Maryland.

“We are seeing a continued increase of olim of all streams and age groups,” said Boaz Herman, head of the Aliyah Department in North America. Herman noted that the Jewish Agency has registered immigrants ranging in age from several months, to elderly individuals in their nineties. Herman noted that 70% of immigrants from North America were under 35, and nearly 40% were under 18.

The oldest person thus far to make aliya in 2007 was a 94-year-old from Miami. A 90-year-old Holocaust survivor plans to move to Israel from New York this summer.
====================
“Aliya” is Hebrew whose literal meaning ‘to go up’ describes immigrating to Israel.

GOOD NEWS FROM ISRAEL
Amid all the incessant chatter denigrating Israel and the idea of self-determination for the Jewsih people int heir own homeland, this little news item should remind the Israel-haters that she isn’t going anywhere.
===========================
Updated June 28, 2007 13:35
Aliya from North America Increasing
By JPOST.COM STAFF

The Aliyah Department of the Jewish Agency for Israel anticipates a five to 10 percent increase in aliya from North America by the end of 2007, marking the largest aliya from that region in a quarter century, the Jewish Agency reported Thursday.

In 2006, 3,200 Americans and Canadians moved to Israel and adopted Israeli citizenship, the highest figure since 1983.

On Monday, some 300 New York area residents who plan to move to Israel this summer will participate in a farewell ceremony hosted by the Jewish Agency in Manhattan, in conjunction with the Israel Consulate. Israel’s Ambassador to the UN Dan Gillerman is scheduled to address the group. Similar farewell events have already been been held this month in Toronto, Boston, Miami, and Rockville, Maryland.

“We are seeing a continued increase of olim of all streams and age groups,” said Boaz Herman, head of the Aliyah Department in North America. Herman noted that the Jewish Agency has registered immigrants ranging in age from several months, to elderly individuals in their nineties. Herman noted that 70% of immigrants from North America were under 35, and nearly 40% were under 18.

The oldest person thus far to make aliya in 2007 was a 94-year-old from Miami. A 90-year-old Holocaust survivor plans to move to Israel from New York this summer.
====================
“Aliya” is Hebrew whose literal meaning ‘to go up’ describes immigrating to Israel.

More from the Egyptian press:
=============================

The Egyptian People Feel There is a Danger From Within

Chairman of the executive council of the Egyptian weekly Roz Al-Yousef, Karam Gabar, wrote in his column:

“Hamas is the Brotherhood of Palestine - the Palestine branch [of the Brotherhood]. They hold a place at the top of the list of members of the international organization of the banned group [i.e. the Muslim Brotherhood]. This means that this is a worldwide movement that does not recognize national identity, the flag, or the anthem. They do not recognize a homeland that must be defended and for which one must give one’s life. The homeland for them includes any plot of land on Earth on which the flag of the Brotherhood may be flown… Hamas is the same thing. Whoever does not share their faith is [considered] outside of Islam, and he is treated like one of the infidels…

“For Hamas and the Brotherhood, democracy is just dancing with Satan. The people who harbor the most enmity for democracy are those same groups who think that they have a divine mandate to rule and to implement the shari’a they see fit, and not Allah’s shari’a. Democracy for them is just a means to take power; afterwards, they whip democracy with lashes and behead it with the sword… No one can raise their head and speak up without becoming an infidel who must be punished. Their democracy is worse than dictatorship…

“In the history of Hamas and the banned [Muslim Brotherhood] there are incidents that are blacker than black: murders, torture… Hamas and the banned [Muslim Brotherhood] have no written law, [and both movements] do not recognize the this-worldly judicial system or secular judges.

“Their judicial system is speedy, and it has a special law [taken] from the worst exegetical texts from the days of the ridda, separatism, and darkness. The end of [their trials] - which last no longer than a few minutes - is swords, or a traitorous bullet, without fair trial. The banned [Muslim Brotherhood] recognizes the law of the country in cases where it serves their interests, and afterwards it rebels against the law, casts aspersion on the judicial system, and does not honor the legitimate [government] or the constitution…

“For the first time, the Egyptians felt dread when they saw the students of Al-Azhar University conducting combat displays with the same methods as Hamas, and in the same clothing, with the same slogans and tools. The public felt the danger growing under [its] skin, flowing in [its] blood, and touching on [its] nerves - a real danger flowing from the depths, and not something imported from abroad…”

================

You know it’s bad when the OTHER Arabs start recognizing Hamas for who and what they are.

More from the Egyptian press:
=============================

The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is Trying to Reproduce Hamas’ Experience in Gaza

Tariq Hasan, a columnist for the Egyptian government daily Al-Ahram, wrote:

“In Egypt there are those who are trying to reproduce what Hamas did in Gaza… For anyone who has the slightest doubt about this and wants proof, it is sufficient to consider statements by Brotherhood representatives in parliament… They said that Egypt waved the Zionist flag, despite the people’s opposition to this. This means that Egypt, like the Palestinian Authority, deserves that a revolution should take place in it.

“The Brotherhood, like Hamas, does not recognize the legitimacy of the parliament that ratified the peace treaty with Israel, nor the legitimacy of the state that ratified these agreements, since [in its view] it is a traitorous state that works for foreign interests and that does not represent its people. From these statements we understand that the Hamas problem is not [limited to] just Gaza, but it is also in Egypt, and that the Brotherhood holds the same positions and uses the same ideas and statements with which Hamas conducted a putsch against the [legitimate] government, and through which it declared Gaza a rebel region under its rule.

“Here in Egypt the Brotherhood brought out the masked militias in Al-Azhar University, and there in Gaza Hamas put them to use. Here they changed the Egyptian flag and removed the eagle of the Republic from it, and there they took down the Palestinian flag and waved the green flag of Hamas. What can we expect?...

“In light of this severe threat, it is not enough for us to say to people ‘look at what Hamas did in Gaza’ in order to warn them about the Brotherhood in Egypt. We must learn the lessons without delay.

“Hamas won the game it was playing, and the Brotherhood is doing the [same] thing. There, there was a government that allowed them to take part in elections without their recognizing the legitimacy of that Authority [i.e. the PA] and without their being made to accept the state’s constitution and its laws. Hamas used the elections and democracy as an instrument [in order to take power], and then they turned the matter over to the armed militias in order to conduct a putsch against everyone.

“Here, there are [Muslim] Brothers who do not recognize the legitimacy of the state and oppose the constitution and the law, and despite this, we find people who say that [the Brotherhood] represents them and speaks in their name in parliament… Whoever ignores this [matter] will bring us into the gates of hell that we saw in Gaza…”

From the Egyptian press:
=======================

Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood are Dragging the Entire People to Suicide

In his daily column, the editor of the Egyptian daily Al-Gomhouriya Muhammad ‘Ali Ibrahim wrote:

“Hamas is the Palestinian side of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, which has become the heart and the brain of the world organization of the Brotherhood, and whose Supreme Guide has become the one who motivates, advises, and guides all of the Islamist currents in the world…

“I imagine myself a Palestinian living in Gaza, or an Egyptian living here [in Egypt] if, God forbid, the Brotherhood had a majority in parliament. First, if what Hamas did against Fatah were to happen anywhere in the Arab homeland… the result would be, quite simply, that people would not receive salaries, schooling, [medical] treatment, or services…

“I imagine that when Hamas considers murdering Mahmoud Abbas, it will in no way ask the people, since it [already] received a mandate at the ballot box… It is possible that Hamas will receive orders from Iran and will carry them out, and then it will drag the region into a destructive total war. It is also possible that Tehran will convince the Hamas leaders to repeat Hizbullah’s experience…

“In short, the victory of Hamas and the Brotherhood at the ballot box does not mean that they are politicians and that they are capable of running the state, with all of the political [implications] and the responsibility that this entails. All that Hamas is capable of doing is to be crack troops of suicide. Unfortunately, however, they are not committing suicide alone. They are forcing the entire people to commit suicide, and I fear that this is the same tactic and path that the Brotherhood in Egypt is taking…”

#82057 by nahida:

Israeli ex-parliament speaker calls Israel a “Zionist Ghetto”, compares it to Nazi Germany

So what?

Ramsey Clark, former Attorney General of the United States, turned into a far-left whack-job, just like this Burg character. He even ended up going to Baghdad to defend Saddam Hussein. Clark hates his own country as much as Burg seems to hate his. All it proves is that both the US and Israel are open and secure enough in their freedoms of expression and dissent to put up with assholes like these Burg and Clark.

I actually like seeing crap like this because it reminds me of the vast difference in culture between the US, Israel, and most European countries on the one hand, and repressive, authoritarian regimes (including all Arab countries with the possible exception of Lebanon) where dissenting voices are crushed.

Thank you Nahida - you have served the cause of freedom, albeit in an unintended way.

Nahida, elsewhere on this site, I noted the many similarities between Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto.  I noted how Ironic that the children and grandchildren of the victims of Nazi oppression have now become the oppressors, walling in the Palestinians within the overcrowded piece of real estate just as the Germans once walled in the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto.

But there is another troubling analogy.  Just as the Nazis found Jews willing to act as policemen who would aid in the oppression of their own people, now I see Fatah becoming the surrogate policemen of Israel and the U.S.  The places and peoples may change but the tactics of fascisim, whether German or Zionist, remain the same.

By the way, do you know what the Nazis called the resistance movements throughout occupied Europe?  They called them “terrorists.”

Israeli ex-parliament speaker calls Israel a “Zionist Ghetto”, compares it to Nazi Germany

Article links at:

Haaretz - Leaving the Zionist ghetto

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/868385.html

Haaretz - Burg: Defining Israel as a Jewish state is the key to its end

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/867986.html
——————————————————————

Avraham Burg, ex-speaker of the Knesset (Israeli parliament) and head of the Jewish Agency (responsible for bringing Jews from all over the world to Palestine) calls Israel, a “Zionist Ghetto” and compares it to “Nazi Germany”.

Further goes on to say that any Israeli who can leave Israel, should do so before it’s too late, for Israel is an utopia gone wrong. Almost calls the Israelis, paranoid blood-thirsty Judeo-Nazis.

He himself has immigrated to France and has acquired French nationality recently.

Avraham Burg, says “to define the State of Israel as a Jewish state is the key to its end. A Jewish state is explosive. It’s dynamite.”
In an interview in Israeli Haaretz Weekend Magazine, he said that he is in favor of abrogating the Law of Return and calls on everyone who can to obtain a foreign passport.

Burg, who was interviewed on the occasion of the publication of his book “Defeating Hitler” said “the strategic mistake of Zionism was to annul the alternatives. Israeliness has only body; it doesn’t have soul.”

“Judaism always prepared alternatives,” says Burg, who three years after leaving Israeli politics is now a citizen of France and a successful businessman.
“Just as there was something astonishing about German Jewry, in America, too, they created the potential for something astonishing. They created a situation in which the goy can be my father and my mother and my son and my partner,” Burg says.
His book ruminates about Israel and Zionism, compares Israel and Germany, harshly criticizes Eichmann’s hanging, reflects on Judaism in the age of globalization and remembers his father’s house.

Burg said he started his book in mourning for the loss of Israel. “During most of the writing the book’s title was ‘Hitler Won.’ But slowly I discovered the layer of not everything being lost. And I discovered my father as a representative of German Jewry that was ahead of its time. These two themes nourished the book from beginning to end.”

——————————————————————

[...]

Shavit: What you are saying is that the problem is not just the occupation. In your eyes, Israel as a whole is some sort of horrible mutation.

Burg: “The occupation is a very small part of it. Israel is a frightened society. To look for the source of the obsession with force and to uproot it, you have to deal with the fears. And the meta-fear, the primal fear is the six million Jews who perished in the Holocaust.”

[...]

Shavit: We are being dragged into carrying out war crimes?

Burg: “I have no other way to see it. Especially if there is no horizon of dialogue. The Israelis are very calm. One more Arab, one less Arab. Ya’allah, it’s alright. But in the end, the pile grows high. The number of innocent people is so large that it can no longer be contained. And then our explosion and their explosion and the world’s will be infinite. I see it happening before my eyes. I see the pile of Palestinian bodies crossing the wall we erected so as not to see it.”

[...]

Shavit: You believe Israel should be relieved of nuclear weapons.

Burg:“Of course, of course. The day the Bomb is dismantled will be the most important day in Israel’s history. It will be the day on which we get such a good deal with the other side that we will no longer need the Bomb. That has to be our ambition.”

#82015 by cyrena on 6/27 at 10:26 pm

Cyrena - I’m beginning to wonder if you’re capable of posting anything factual at all.

<<there was a rash of suicide bombings back in the early to mid 1980’s>>

Not true.  The first Palestinian sucide attack on Israeli soil was 1989.  Palestinian suicide attacks against Israel didn’t start in earnest until after the Oslo accords in 1993.

<<they had SINCE been more controlled, under Hamas, because I know that to be a fact.>>

But unfortunately, it’s not a fact.  The 2nd intifada (2000) spawned far more Palestinian suicide attacks than the first.  Attacks have dropped in the last couple of years mainly due to the effectiveness of the West Bank wall Israel is building along with its various security measures.  My guess is that Hamas is also preoccupied with internal political struggles against Fatah since its electoral win - but it has nevertheless tried to mount suicide attacks and failed (thus the new focus on un-targeted rocket attacks).

And we know the wall has been effective because there have been no successful suicide attacks from Gaza, where a completed wall has been in place for some time.

<<In other words, the real instances of a suicide bombers from Gaza or the West Bank, INSIDE Israel’s soverign terriotory, have been minimal in the past 20 years, or at least sporatic.>>

Again, as I show above, that’s just plain wrong on all counts.  a) There never were any from Gaza, and b) there’ve been more suicide bombs inside Israel since 2000 than all the years before, combined.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks

Of course if you want to dispute wikipedia, then be my guest - just post a legitimate source that backs up your claims and I’ll accept it.

The rest of your post was a rather standard ad hominem attack on lilmamzer which I can neither confirm or dispute… other than that the level of your humor would make you quite popular around junior school to early high schoolers.

What continues to amuse me is a) your apparent inability to research even the most basic and public facts, and b) your glee in demonstrating this repeatedly and at great length.  This isn’t a personal attack on you - it’s an observation from your many posts.

If you were truly “on the ground” in that region at some point, then I would wonder exactly what you were doing… because it appears you learned less than those of us who have never been there.  I’m glad you finally found the Hamas charter, though you’ve dismissed its central crux as “standard language” for that group (you know, that standard clause about the jihad based anhialation of Israel being their central purpose and all)... I’m sure that point was nothing to worry about… just the fine print.

No lilmamzer,

I didn’t follow the links, but ONLY because you had already posted some of these figures in the body of your post, and I knew THOSE numbers were WRONG, so why would I have followed the linK. That doesn’t make any sense. Time is precious, and I don’t need to look at stuff that I’ve seen with my own eyes.

Now, I did NOT say, that there have been NO suicide bombings in Israel (on Israel’s actual property) in 20 years. I did not say that. What I DID say, was that there was a rash of suicide bombings back in the early to mid 1980’s, and that they had SINCE been more controlled, under Hamas, because I know that to be a fact. In other words, the real instances of a suicide bombers from Gaza or the West Bank, INSIDE Israel’s soverign terriotory, have been minimal in the past 20 years, or at least sporatic. It usually takes them several years of broken and empty promises by the Irsraelis, before they get desperate enough to pull off one of the types of “suicide bombings”, and they don’t just pull them off as easily as you are claiming. The Israeli security is so tight they simply cannot access these locations that you’re making claims to.

Now, here’s the deal, just so we know what we think we know. I’ve been on the ground, in the flesh, and for extended periods of time, in Israel, the Palestinian territories, and a few of the surrounding nation states. I have never been to Iran. The rest…yes. I KNOW what my eyes have seen from the air, and on the ground. I have watched the changes, and I have documented the changes. And, I continue to read Academic journals by other scholars, who have been there even more recently than I have.

And, at this point in time, I still trust my own eyes and ears better than I trust your links.

I think you’re in a psychotic meltdown, and that you should avail yourself of whatever services might be available to you. Generally, it’s not cureable, but can be controlled with meds, electroshock treatment, and other more advanced therapies that are becoming available.

So, instead of working that Bin Laden stock into your budget, use the money on a good psychiatrist.
You’ll be glad you did. I’ll hold down the fort for you while you’re being treated, and I’ll make sure those terrists don’t do anything bad to Israel.

Comment #81940 by ITW on 6/27 at 6:18 pm

ITW, didn’t you just come back from a vacation? Hmm…you sound like you may need another long one.

First it was “Ill-lie-mamzer” who was gone for a while, then you ITW, and now its “lefty-ephraim”. Very interesting…guard duty!

ITW, since you know so much about Israel and this Hamas so called charter…etc…

Didn’t the PLO also have a charter and it was revised in the early 1990’s? Didn’t the PLO recognize Israel as a state with the pre-June 1967 as its borders?

What did the PLO & the Palestinian people get for their charter revision & the recognition of Israel?

Where is the PEACE that Israel keeps promising the Palestinians?

Shouldn’t Israel also be asked to recognize a Palestinian state which should include Gaza, West Bank and East Jerusalem, as per UN Resolutions 242, 338, 194, and the International World Court ruling of July 2004?

Why does Israel keeps building new “Jewish Settlements”, for Jews only, in the Occupied Territories? Isn’t that against International Law & the Geneva Charter?

The United States went to war and attacked Iraq on the basis that Iraq refused to honor UN Resolutions. Why should Israel be immune from abiding by & honoring UN Resolutions?

While I am at it ITW, can you provide for us, in approximate numbers, what Israel has in regards to military hardware, since you seem to be soooo concerned with Hamas’s charter?

Israel Military U.S. Made Hardware:

# of tanks, # of fighter jets, # of bombers, # of Black Hawks, # of gunships, # of cannons, # of submarines, # of destroyers, # of missiles, # of heavy army personnel carriers, # of nuclear missiles / bombs (>200), amount of chemical & biological weapons stockpiles, # of military troops/reserves and other pertinent sophisticated military information for Israel?

*************************************************

Guess what Hamas has in regards to the above…Israel’s arsenals?

Well…since Gaza & Hamas are under the watchful eyes of Israel’s IDF sophisticated surveillance & satellite systems 24 hours per day for 365 days per year…I just might as well just guess at Hamas’ arsenal(s):

- A few hundred hand guns, ancient rifles and AK-47s.

- Kasam “firecrackers” homemade rockets.

- Lots of rocks & stones.

Can you think of anything else that Israel may NOT be able to handle in regards to Hamas’s weapons? Israel controls their movements from the sky, sea and land…right?

Do you that Israel can win against hamas’ military hardware?

So there you go. If Israel really wants genuine and permanent peace with the Palestinians, the road to peace is clearly there.

What Israel really wants is all Palestinian lands WITHOUT the Palestinian people…that is what it wants! The Palestinians are just in ZIONISM’s way!

ISRAEL & ITS ZIONISM WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO GET RID OF THE PALESTINIANS. THEY WANT THEM TO GO TO JORDAN AND LEAVE FOREVER. DOES THAT RING A BELL…ITW? HAVE YOU HEARD THAT FROM ISRAEL’S FORMER LEADERS?

#81940 by Inherit The Wind:

Plus, we have Cyrena making up “facts” as she goes along—makes Ann Coulter look like an amateur.  Did you catch her latest BS? There haven’t been any Palestinian suicide bombers in 2 decades.

Yeah, we caught her latest BS. You can’t make this shit up - you have to read her posts to believe someone would actually put herself out there like that. I find myself looking forward to her next contribution just for the amusement value.

By the way - have you ever read any Michael Totten? He’s an independent journalist/blogger who spends a lot of time in Lebanon, Kurdistan, Iraq, as well as some time in Israel and the territories as well.

He thinks and writes clearly and dispassionately. He has good guest bloggers sit in for him when he’s on assignment, and the message board has some really good, informed debate. Much livelier, more engaging,  and thought-provoking than this place. Knowledge beats juvenile name-calling any day, and you’ll see a difference.

Check it out:

http://www.michaeltotten.com/

ITW, if you are referring to me, to Robert, to Cyrena, to Tony Wicher or to Michael Shaw your latest post is nothing less than shameful.  Presenting an objective analysis of the impact of Israel’s forty-year, illegal occupation or a critique of the racist and fascist underpinnings of the doctrine known as Zionism does not make one an “anti-Semite.”  Your conflating a call to end the illegal occupation into a call that “Jews lay down their arms” is flat-out dishonest. 

The accurate quotes by Nahida about the statements made by Israel’s “Founding Fathers” reveals that the greatest threat to Jews living in Israel is neither Hamas nor Fatah, but the Zionists themselves for their racist philosophy is the greatest obstacle to Jews and Arabs living in peace and harmony in a truly democratic society. 

The statement by David Ben Gurion that he would prefer to save only half the Jewish children from the Holocaust by transporting them to Israel to saving them all by transporting them to England exposes the Zionists not only as fanatics but traitors to their own people.

And, judging from the ideologically blinded posts of you and your Zionist fellow travelers, one can only conclude that you have no sense of shame.

#81931 by cyrena:

I did in fact read the Hamas Charter…..And yes, I did see a few lines of what I considered to be the typical rhetoric of an Arab resistance group, and all the rest was pretty benign.

Typical rhetoric? That doesn’t speak well of Arab “resistance groups”, does it? What are they “resisting”, anyway? Old people commuting on city busses? Teenagers eating pizza? And you think the Hamas covenant is benign? Didyou follow the link I provided to the list of suicide bombings in Israel by Hamas and it’s Arab terrorist allies? That’s your benign Hamas covenant put into practice, turning Israeli civilians into corpses as a matter of policy. If that’s benign, what does Arab malignancy look like?
————————-

Instead, Israel has since INCREASED the settlements in the West Bank

Arabs live in Israel as citizens, but Jews have to be ethnically-cleansed from areas that have been traditionally and historically Jewish for thousands of years?
————————-

...and has continued to imprison most Gazans

False. Gazan Arabs can move as freely in and out of Gaza as their fellow Egyptians care to allow them. Israel is under no obligation to allow any Gazan Arabs into Israel. Why should they? The Gazan Arabs have declared their desire to destroy Israel by electing Hamas. Israel owes them nothing.
————————-

...not to mention the non-Jewish population of Israel, that they still allow to “be” there, even though they have no rights…

False. That’s just empty, inflammatory rhetoric.
————————-

...and whomever is not imprisoned, they just roll over with tanks.

Yes, if there are any non-Jews who are still not in prison, anywhere in the country, the army just rolls over them with tanks. Again, empty, inane, inflammatory rhetoric.
————————-

I figure if I mosey over to my neighbors house, and steal their shit, and lock up their familiy members, they will rightfully come after me, and that they probably will wanna kick my ass. Even if they don’t kick my ass, they’re gonna want their stuff back, and they’ll demand that I free their family members. If I don’t, it’s a guarantee that they’re gonna kick my ass. Ergo, I wouldn’t think of doing it. It’s not worth it.

Whatever.

Lilmamzer,

I did in fact read the Hamas Charter, from both of the sources that you provided. (I prefer the yale website, but the other one was fine as well). And yes, I did see a few lines of what I considered to be the typical rhetoric of an Arab resistance group, and all the rest was pretty benign. So, I already told you that I acknowledged that part of their rhetoric, and I also told you that it doesn’t begin to sound as insane as the Zionist stuff. It just doesn’t.

And, I still can’t get you to give any sort of acknowledgement to International Law, since the UN has confirmed as recently as 2004, that Israel needs to get back to her OWN “existance”. Instead, Israel has since INCREASED the settlements in the West Bank, and has continued to imprison most Gazans, (not to mention the non-Jewish population of Israel, that they still allow to “be” there, even though they have no rights), and whomever is not imprisoned, they just roll over with tanks.

And, if Israelis are dying from stone thowing, (by suicide bombers or otherwise), maybe they would be safer if they weren’t ALL OVER the damn place, instead of in their own area that was so generously gifted to them by the rest of the world.

I figure if I mosey over to my neighbors house, and steal their shit, and lock up their familiy members, they will rightfully come after me, and that they probably will wanna kick my ass. Even if they don’t kick my ass, they’re gonna want their stuff back, and they’ll demand that I free their family members. If I don’t, it’s a guarantee that they’re gonna kick my ass. Ergo, I wouldn’t think of doing it. It’s not worth it.

Convent Damage Unsettles Gaza Christians

Gaza Christians Fear Persecution After Convent Damaged During Hamas Takeover, Look to Leave
—————————————————
GAZA - Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - The ransacking of a Catholic convent and an adjacent Rosary Sisters school during Hamas’ sweep to power broke more than wood and plaster. It signaled the end of a relatively peaceful, if sometimes uneasy, relationship between Gaza’s 1.4 million Muslims and 3,000 Christians.

Despite promises of protection by Hamas leaders, Christians fear more attacks, and some say they want to leave. Gaza’s flock already has been hit hard by emigration in recent years, and a new exodus could remove what is left of one of the Arab world’s oldest Christian communities.

“We don’t trust them. Our time is coming,” said a Greek Orthodox Christian, who in the current climate of fear asked not to be identified.

No one has claimed responsibility for damaging the convent and school, and Hamas vehemently denied involvement.

However, signs point to Muslim extremists rather than ordinary vandals. A statue and picture of the Virgin Mary - who is held in high esteem by Muslims - were left untouched.

[…] Missak suggested the vandals were acting on their own. “They were ignorant people. They don’t represent all Muslims,” he said.

Other Christians blame Hamas - at the least for not preventing the destruction. One woman said only Hamas militants could enter the convent during the fighting, when Gaza’s civilians were pinned down in their homes.

#81913 by cyrena:

I don’t want to hear anymore about suicide bombers in Israel again either. They did that 2 decades ago, and Hamas was the only organization able to get some control over it. Nobody is suicide bombing Israel now

Hamas “got some control”? Hamas creates, recruits, trains, and arms suicide-bombers . It’s what Hamas does.

<u>A Few Examples:</b>

Mar 31, 2002 - 14 people were killed and over 40 injured in a suicide bombing in Haifa, in the Matza restaurant of the gas station near the Grand Canyon shopping mall. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The victims: Suheil Adawi, 32, of Turan; Dov Chernevroda, 67, of Haifa; Shimon Koren, 55; his sons Ran, 18, and Gal, 15, of Haifa; Moshe Levin, 52, of Haifa; Danielle Manchell, 22, of Haifa; Orly Ofir, 16, of Haifa; Aviel Ron, 54; his son Ofer, 18, and daughter Anat, 21, of Haifa; Ya’akov Shani, 53, of Haifa; Adi Shiran, 17, of Haifa; Daniel Carlos Wegman, 50, of Haifa. Carlos Yerushalmi, 52, of Karkur, died on April 1 of wounds sustained in the attack.

May 7, 2002 - 15 people were killed and 55 wounded in a crowded game club in Rishon Lezion, southeast of Tel-Aviv, when a suicide bomber detonated a powerful charge in the 3rd floor club, causing part of the building to collapse. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 18, 2002 - 19 people were killed and 74 were injured - six seriously - in a suicide bombing at the Patt junction in Egged bus no. 32A traveling from Gilo to the center of Jerusalem. The bus, which was completely destroyed, was carrying many students on their way to school. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The victims: Boaz Aluf, 54, of Jerusalem; Shani Avi-Zedek, 15, of Jerusalem; Leah Baruch, 59, of Jerusalem; Mendel Bereson, 72, of Jerusalem; Rafael Berger, 28, of Jerusalem; Michal Biazi, 24, of Jerusalem; Tatiana Braslavsky, 41, of Jerusalem; Galila Bugala, 11, of Jerusalem; Raisa Dikstein, 67, of Jerusalem; Dr. Moshe Gottlieb, 70, of Jerusalem; Baruch Gruani, 60, of Jerusalem; Orit Hayla, 21, of Jerusalem; Helena Ivan, 63, of Jerusalem; Iman Kabha, 26, of Barta; Shiri Negari, 21, of Jerusalem; Gila Nakav, 55, of Jerusalem; Yelena Plagov, 42, of Jerusalem; Liat Yagen, 24 of Jerusalem; Rahamim Zidkiyahu, 51, of Jerusalem.

July 31, 2002 - Nine people - four Israelis and five foreign nationals - were killed and 85 injured, 14 of them seriously, when a bomb exploded in the Frank Sinatra student center cafeteria on the Hebrew University’s Mt. Scopus campus. The explosive device was planted inside the cafeteria, which was gutted by the explosion. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The victims: David Diego Ladowski, 29, of Jerusalem; Levina Shapira, 53, of Jerusalem; Marla Bennett, 24, of California (US); Benjamin Blutstein, 25, of Pennsylvania (US); Dina Carter, 37, of Jerusalem (US); Janis Ruth Coulter, 36, of Massachusetts (US); David Gritz, 24, of Jerusalem (US-France). Daphna Spruch, 61, of Jerusalem died of her wounds on August 10. Revital Barashi, 30, died of her wounds on August 13
======================

There are so many dozens of suicide bombings from Hamas, there isn’t space in a single post to list them all.

Hamas wrote its covenant with emphasis on killing the Jews, and these attacks are how they put their ideology into practice.

#81913 by cyrena:

I don’t want to hear anymore about suicide bombers in Israel again either. They did that 2 decades ago, and Hamas was the only organization able to get some control over it. Nobody is suicide bombing Israel now

Two decades ago?

More than 100 “major” suicide bombings have been carried out since September 2000.

Here’s just two from last year:

<u>Mar 30, 2006 - Rafi Halevy, 63, and his wife Helena, 58, of Kedumim, Re’ut Feldman, 20, of Herzliya, and Shaked Lasker, 16, of Kedumim were killed when a suicide bomber hitchhiker disguised as an ultra-Orthodox yeshiva student detonated his explosive device in a private vehicle near the entrance to Kedumim.

<u>Apr 17, 2006</u> - Eleven people were killed and over 60 wounded in a suicide bombing during the Passover holiday at the Rosh Ha’ir shawarma restaurant, near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. The victims: Philip Balhasan, 45, of Ashdod; Rozalia Beseneyi, 48, and Pirosca Boda 50, of Romania; Marcel Cohen, 73, of Nice, France; Ariel Darhi, 31, of Bat Yam; Victor Erez, 60, of Givatayim; Binyamin Haputa, 47, of Lod; David Shaulov, 29, of Holon; Lily Yunes, 42, of Oranit. Lior Anidzar, 26, of Tel Aviv died of his wounds on May 13. Daniel Wultz, 16, of Weston, Florida (USA) died on May 14.</b>

A complete list can be found here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html

Nobody is suicide bombing in Israel now? Do you honestly believe it is from lack of trying on the Arabs’ part?

Why do you think there is a security barrier between the narrow coastal plain of Israel and the hills of Judea and Shomron? It is an effective anti-terrorist method, along with the checkpoints along roads, which, although politically unpopular, do in fact save Israeli lives.

#81913 by cyrena:

So, there we have it. Lilmamzer is still reliving the Holocaust, (I have to assume that, based on the reference to the 5.25 million dead Jews,) and that’s like the primary foundation of the main “disconnect” for the mamzer. That HAMAS had nothing to do with killing 5.25 million Jews

No, you definitely do not have it.

There are 5.25 million Jews in Israel today. Hamas declares their intention to kill those Jews. Oh that’s right, you’re not familiar with the Hamas covenant….......

Now that we’ve cleared up that misconception, do you believe the Holocaust is not an event worthy of being remembered?

#81907 by Michael Shaw:

I respect much of your argument as well as your tact.

Thanks - what a rare thing to read on these pages.
————-

Well lilmamzer I disagree with you about who the aggressor is.

That should be plural, as in ‘aggressors’.

In a nutshell: the combined Arab armies of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, plus support from others, invaded Israel when she declared her independence in 1948 (and this after accepting the UN partition plan which didn’t even include the armistice lines existing from 1948 through 1967). The Arabs were the aggressors. Throughou the 1950’s there were Arab terrorists infiltrating into Israel from Gaza (held by Egypt) and from Syria. The death toll of Israeli civilians from these attacks was very heavy. Forward to 1967 - Egypt and Syria create a de facto casus belli and precipitated Israel’s victory. Forward to 1973 - combined Arab armies attack again….PLO slaughters hundreds of Israelis by infiltrating the northern border with Israel throughout the 1970’s and 1980’s. Israel really is the aggrieved party and has been on the defensive since before establishing independence.

If you want to provide a detailed alternative history, go right ahead, but be prepared to cite your sources.
———————-
It seems to me the Arabs can’t resolve it

Yes, they can. They can stop treating Israel and the Jews as an alien presence in the Middle East and establish diplomatic relations. They can end the continual state of war and end the economic boycott of Israel. They can stop diplomatic and financial support of terror groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, and others.They can finally make peace with Israel instead of war.
———————

the Israeli’s can’t resolve it

Not alone, of course - not without a partner or partners on the Arabs’ side genuinely interested in peaceful coexistence.
———————

the United States can’t resolve it, the UN can’t resolve it

Nope, not without desire from the Arabs to fully accept Israel as a sovereign Jewish nation (with all that entails). You are correct about that.
———————

what would you suggest we do about this situation?

I’m not sure you really want to know what I would suggest. And no, it doesn’t involve nuking Cairo and Riyadh and Damascus, so please don’t even go there, OK?

#81822 by lilmamzer on 6/27 at 12:24 pm
In the above post by lilmanzer, (responding to Michael Shaw when he suggested that he thought lilmamzer must just LIKE all this killing), this was part of the response. Notice again, the psychological “disconnect” that is a result of permanent Holocaust Mentality Disassociation.

•  Nonsense. You have no basis for claiming I don’t want peace. The question is, what kind of peace are you talking about? The Hamas version of peace? No thanks - 5.25 million dead Jews is not the kind of peace Israel needs

So, there we have it. Lilmamzer is still reliving the Holocaust, (I have to assume that, based on the reference to the 5.25 million dead Jews,) and that’s like the primary foundation of the main “disconnect” for the mamzer. That HAMAS had nothing to do with killing 5.25 million Jews, and that this horror occurred in EUROPE, under Hitler, Stalin, and all of their fellow fascists, and that it was thousands of miles from any ARAB or Palestinians, is obviously not a factor that lil alzheimers is figuring in. It’s a “make up the connections as he or she goes along”, and just totally skip or make up associations that don’t exist. Kind of like how a group of Saudis that trained in Afghanistan, came over here and attacked us, so….we went and blasted Iraq off the face of the earth. Same kind of dot-connection there….the kind that is real dangerous to human existence.

So again, for the record lilmamzer, (and I’m NOT going to remind you of this again, because I think you know better)….The ARABS did not perpetrate the Holocaust against those 5.25 million Jews, There were NO Palestinians running around Germany, France, Poland, Russia, etc, etc, rounding up Jews. OK? It didn’t happen. There WERE however, many Christian and other religious and non-religious - NON-Jews, that tried to do what they could to help their fellow human (Jews in this case), and you know damn well that many of THEM lost their lives as well.

So, STOP with all of this hysteria that causes you to re-writehistory, and make all of these ridiculous associations that do not exist. Hamas wasn’t even AROUND when all of those Jews were ethnically cleansed. And you have therefore chosen the wrong target for your retribution. So, go dig up Hitler’s grave and make him sign over Germany to you. (or wherever else you guys would fit in better with the general landscape.) You’ll be “safe” there now. Germany has really cleaned up her act since those dreadful days.

I don’t want to hear anymore about suicide bombers in Israel again either. They did that 2 decades ago, and Hamas was the only organization able to get some control over it. Nobody is suicide bombing Israel now, (at least not from Gaza or the West Bank, or Lebanon.) So STOP. The only thing you do with all of this hysteria is to give people ideas they wouldn’t have even considered otherwise. You accuse a person or group of doing something long enough, they might just do it for the hell of it, figuring if their gonna be ACCUSED anyway, they might as well make it legit.

Well lilmamzer I disagree with you about who the aggressor is. Regardless of that I respect much of your argument as well as your tact. But seriously, how can this problem be resolved? It seems to me the Arabs can’t resolve it, the Israeli’s can’t resolve it, the United States can’t resolve it, the UN can’t resolve it etc. A peaceful solution is a benefit to the entire world, not just Israel and the Palestinians. Obviously staying the course isn’t working since our enemies have doubled or trebled since we invaded Iraq. So bearing all of these things in mind, what would you suggest we do about this situation?

#81838 by Inherit The Wind:

Uh-Oh! Now you’ve done it!  The gang is going to start calling me names again, and make up all kinds of insults for me…They don’t even have much creativity doing that!

Be afraid, very afraid.
————————-

I have long suspected that the Bush administration collaborated with Israel on the recent attack on Lebanon. It was by-far the worst-planned and executed Israeli military action in decades, and had Bush’s fingerprints (and that of his gang of trolls) all over it.

You do mean counter-attack, don’t you? Israel did not initiate the hostilities with Hezbollah. It was clear to me that the Bush administration was hoping that the IDF would route Hezbollah, and in so doing dealing a heavy blow both to Iranian meddling and influence as well as to the Syrian grip over Lebanon. But I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest shared strategic or operational collaboration - whatever agreement might have existed between governments was at the diplomatic level. It was so interesting to read Arab opinion pieces in papers such as Beirut’s Daily Star expressing a grudging admiration for the way Israel has launched some very high-level inquiries and investigations, conducted in the open, to assess the conduct of this campaign.
—————————

And, as I said before, if Sharon were not in the coma that he’s going to die in, I would advocate hauling his butt in front of The International Court of Justice as a war criminal.

Sharon had the vision to see that removing Jews from Gaza (a self-imposed ethnic cleansing, if you will) would help break the stalemate no matter if the outcome was immediately positive or negative. By that I mean, if the Gazan Arabs seized the moment and started to govern themselves and develop their economy and show that they could live at peace with their neighbor as well as with themselves, it would have been a great leap forward for both peoples. Unfortunately that is not what the Gazan Arabs have done, and it has left them with no excuses for their current predicament. I believe Sharon understood that either way, the lines would be clearer and excuses could no longer be made. For that, at least, he was a visionary and bold leader.

Comment #80640 by Inherit The Wind on 6/23 at 5:20 am

ITW, in your comment/post #80640 on 6/23 at 5:20 am , you stated and posted the following:

“This will be my only post on this thread”.

How many comments have you posted since 6/23’s post #80640, and When are you going to tell the truth?

#81737 by Inherit The Wind:

The argument of EVERY anti-Israel anti-Semite here is that the Jews should lay down their arms and allow the Arabs to slaughter them. That is implicit in EVERY argument made.

Every once in a long while there appears a post in which one statement cuts to the heart of the Arabs’ war against Israel and the Jews, and this was one of them.

ALl criticism of Israel on these pages is predicated on the idea that Israel, as a sovereign nation, is by its very existence, illegitimate, and thus, ipso facto, cannot justify any act of self-defense, no matter the circumstances, no matter the nature of the adversaries’ strategies and tactics.

It’s very simple: if Israel is the natural and consequential manifestation of the Jewish nation’s self-determination (which it is), to deny that to the Jews is to stake out a position from which no reason applies, no arguments can be considered, and no hope is offered. There are no ifs, ands, or buts because this is the root cause of the problem. This is the starting point.

#81655 by Michael Shaw:

lilmamzer the truth of the matter is that when it comes to killing, somehow I get the feeling you love it.

Sorry, I’m not able to share your feelings. What I can do, and have been doing, is make rational arguments backed by reason and logic. I’m still waiting for you to cite specific references from my posts to back up your “feelings”. Instead of using term “killing”, try using the word war instead. Israel is fighting a war against Arab aggressors who specifically target innocent civilians. It doesn’t matter whether you think these Arab aggressors have a just cause (they don’t - nothing justifies targetting the innocent); what matters is that Israel, as a sovereign nation, has a responsibility to defend the lives of her citizens. That is the nature of this war. You may over-simplify and equivocate by reducing everything to “killing”, but there can be no justice in that simplistic view of events.
————————

You don’t want to find a peaceful solution, only more genocide and the fact you see no wrongdoing whatsoever on Israel’s part in this matter makes you either a blind man, or a man with the most closed mind I’ve ever encountered.

Nonsense. You have no basis for claiming I don’t want peace. The question is, what kind of peace are you talking about? The Hamas version of peace? No thanks - 5.25 million dead Jews is not the kind of peace Israel needs. I want the kind of peace in which the Arabs give up their dream of destroying the State of Israel and of subjugating any remaining Jews to eternal dhimmitude. And I want the kind of peace in which, having given up that dream, the Arabs benefit from advancing their own societies by developing rule of law, rights and privileges for all people, freedom OF and freedom FROM religion - in short, the kind of lives that are possible in Israel today, and in the West. There is no other real peace option.
———————-

Both sides are killing children and neither side recognizes the other.

Nonsense. Israel does not target innocent civilians. It cannot be demanded of Israel not to defend her citizens, even when the cost of such defense are unfortunate deaths on the other side. Sovereign nations have both the right and the duty to defend themselves from external aggression. You would do better to examine the circumstances of the deaths you refer to rather than make bland, misleading equivicating statements such as that.
———————-

By the way, you demand answers from me but when you don’t like the answers, you just ignore your responsibility in the dialog. TRhat is iontellectually lazy, you know. So I ask you again by reprinting my earlier reply to you:

#81602 by Michael Shaw:

What is it, exactly, that you think I’m promoting that you find so objectionable?

You really should try and answer this with specific references to my postings.

Comment #81674 by Ernest Canning on 6/26 at 10:05 pm.

Ernest…many thanks for the link to that video. It really is an excellent presentation of “scientific facts” by the physics professor. Its the best one that I have seen so far. I stayed up late watching it last night. I couldn’t stop. That professor was surely careful. He had to stay within his Dean’s agreement regarding topic presentation.

I am so glad that you are also heading in a direction of searching for the TRUTH of the matter. It will eventually come out. Perhaps not in our days, but it will come out. It will reveal the horrifying lies of who and what was behind all this 9/11.

Wow…there was excellent scientific facts about the temperature that is required to melt metal beams, that fake obl photo, the toxic dust, build #7, taking out insurance on the buildings with less than 60 days before incident date…Hmmm???

I intend to discuss with you what I have researched & found out regarding this topic. So I’ll be sharing with you some information & pertinent links.

Ernest… here is one 19 minute video that is hard to find these days. YouTube got rid of theirs.

Once you click to play, just stay tuned till the end. The first minute of the video keeps cutting off, but things get ok after that.

http://www.Spiderednews.com/Videos/12022.htm

Nahida…these surely are excellent posts and information. They reflect the echoes of Zionism, its foundations and main objectives “charter”. It has most always been the goals “charter” of the current & former Israeli zionist leaders. And that is…How can Zionism & Israel grab, steal more Palestinian land and at the same time denying the existence of Any Palestinian people and their RIGHTS?

THESE ZIONISM’S QUOTES “CHARTER” ARE LIKE…HEARING IT FROM THE HORSE’S MOUTH!

Excellent, well-researched posts, Nahida.

Who wants to exterminate who?

And who IS annihilating who?

just read on:

The Founding Fathers

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html

David Ben Gurion
Prime Minister of Israel
1949 - 1954,
1955 – 1963

“We must expel Arabs and take their places.”
—David Ben Gurion, 1937, Ben Gurion and the Palestine Arabs, Oxford University Press, 1985.

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
—David Ben-Gurion, May 1948, to the General Staff. From Ben-Gurion, A Biography, by Michael Ben-Zohar, Delacorte, New York 1978.

“There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
—Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp. 121-122

“Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist. Not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not there either. Nahlal arose in the place of Mahlul; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; and Kefar Yehushua in the place of Tal al-Shuman. There is not a single place built in this country that did not have a former Arab population.”
—David Ben Gurion, quoted in The Jewish Paradox, by Nahum Goldmann, Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1978, p. 99.

“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”
—David Ben Gurion, quoted on pp 91-2 of Chomsky’s Fateful Triangle, which appears in Simha Flapan’s “Zionism and the Palestinians pp 141-2 citing a 1938 speech.

“If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.”
—David Ben-Gurion 1938 (Quoted on pp 855-56 in Shabtai Teveth’s Ben-Gurion in a slightly different translation).

The Founding fathers

Golda Meir
Prime Minister of Israel
1969 - 1974

“There is no such thing as a Palestinian people… It is not as if we came and threw them out and took their country. They didn’t exist.”
—Golda Meir, statement to The Sunday Times, 15 June, 1969.

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.”
—Golda Meir, March 8, 1969

“Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen.”
—Golda Meir, 1961, in a speech to the Knesset, reported in Ner, October 1961

“This country exists as the fulfillment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.”
—Golda Meir, Le Monde, 15 October 1971

Yitzhak Rabin
Prime Minister of Israel
1974 - 1977,
1992 - 1995

“We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population?’ Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said ‘Drive them out!”
—Yitzhak Rabin, leaked censored version of Rabin memoirs, published in the New York Times, 23 October 1979.

“[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat.”
—Yitzhak Rabin (a “Prince of Peace” by Clinton’s standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen’s remarks to the Knesset’s foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

Menachem Begin
Prime Minister of Israel
1977 - 1983

“[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs.”
—Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the ‘Beasts,”’ New Statesman, June 25, 1982.

“The Partition of Palestine is illegal. It will never be recognized .... Jerusalem was and will for ever be our capital. Eretz Israel will be restored to the people of Israel. All of it. And for Ever.”
—Menachem Begin, the day after the U.N. vote to partition Palestine.

Yizhak Shamir
Prime Minister of Israel
1983 - 1984,
1986 – 1992

“The past leaders of our movement left us a clear message to keep Eretz Israel from the Sea to the River Jordan for future generations, for the mass aliya (=Jewish immigration), and for the Jewish people, all of whom will be gathered into this country.”
—Former Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir declares at a Tel Aviv memorial service for former Likud leaders, November 1990. Jerusalem Domestic Radio Service.

“The settlement of the Land of Israel is the essence of Zionism. Without settlement, we will not fulfill Zionism. It’s that simple.”
—Yitzhak Shamir, Maariv, 02/21/1997.

“(The Palestinians) would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.”
—Israeli Prime Minister (at the time) Yitzhak Shamir in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

The Founding Fathers

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html

Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister of Israel
1996 - 1999

“Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories.”
-Benyamin Netanyahu, then Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, former Prime Minister of Israel, speaking to students at Bar Ilan University, from the Israeli journal Hotam, November 24, 1989.

Ehud Barak
Prime Minister of Israel
1999 – 2001

“The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”....
—Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

“If we thought that instead of 200 Palestinian fatalities, 2,000 dead would put an end to the fighting at a stroke, we would use much more force….”
—Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, quoted in Associated Press, November 16, 2000.

“I would have joined a terrorist organization.”
—Ehud Barak’s response to Gideon Levy, a columnist for the Ha’aretz newspaper, when Barak was asked what he would have done if he had been born a Palestinian.

Ariel Sharon
Prime Minister of Israel
2001 - 2006

“It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands.”
—Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998

“Everybody has to move, run and grab as many (Palestinian) hilltops as they can to enlarge the (Jewish) settlements because everything we take now will stay ours…Everything we don’t grab will go to them.”
—Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of the Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, Nov. 15, 1998.

“Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.”
—Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, 25 March, 2001 quoted in BBC News Online.

Sources:

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id315.html
Video : http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk
Quotes: monabaker.com/

Robert, Michael, Cyrena, et al…

While lilmamzer may come down unflinchingly on the side of the Israelis, you all are obviously not willing to acknowledge even the slightest culpability on the part of the Palestinians.  You are fully as guilty of exactly what you accuse lilmamzer of being.

Both sides are blameworthy in this conflict (can you name a conflict in which they aren’t?)... but there’s a really really really really big elephant in the middle of that room that’s being completely ignored: the clearly stated and unequivocal intention of the Islamists to eliminate Israel and its inhabitants.  This is no joke, it’s no bluff, you can’t pretend it isn’t true, and it completely undermines the Palestinian moral high ground.  It also prolongs their plight since it’s naturally a deal killer to any serious negotiated settlement.

But you’re not going to hear them changing their tune, because their cause of Jihad is the historical eternal struggle which they embrace.  Israel shares no such ideological mission - their mission is self-preservation, though you may criticize them for their tactics.

Unfortunately, the Palestinian Arab people’s global image as a victimized population has enshrouded them in a morally impenetrable “no fault” cloak that excuses them from any wrong, including electing a terrorist group who’s actions are utterly counterproductive to their cause.  Hamas’ agenda does not include peace with Israel, and it’s what justifies the intentional targeting of non-combatants via suicide bombers, untargeted missiles, random shootings, etc…  Failure to acknowledge this fundamental point demonstrates a bias that defies logic.

Do you have any doubt, for example, that were Hamas to possess a nuclear device, it would not hesitate to use it on Israel?  In fact, Hamas would be *required* by its ideological mandate to do just that.  Which is one reason that preventing Iran from acquiring nuclear technology is of paramount importance to both Arab secular regimes, Israel, and the west.

If you acknowledge Israel’s right to exist, as some of you claim to, then you are in direct conflict with the goals of Hamas and indeed would be considered by them to be a fair target, just as their political opposition Fatah has become.

Robert, this is a slight change in subject—moving from Palestine to 9/11. There is a two-hour academic video you, and frankly, every “Truth”-digger must see.

Here is the link.  When you find the time, please watch it, then let me know what you think.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=964034652002408586

Your right, Robert.  That photo says it all.

Comments by Ernest Canning, Cyrena, Michael Shaw on 6/26:

As always great comments/responses supported with reason, wisdom and TRUTH… by you guys.

This post is for “ill-lie’s” uncertainty & deceptive zionist propaganda…“perhaps Israel has some nukes”..about Israel’s nuclear weapons stockpiles.

Mordechai Vanunu knows the facts & paid for it with the harshest prison term & cruelty from democratic(?) Israel.

Read & click link below for the details.
*************************************************

“One of 11 children of Moroccan Jewish parents who emigrated to Israel in 1963, when he was 9 years old, Vanunu served in the Israeli army and then went to work as a young man in the Dimona nuclear “research center” in the Negev Desert near his home at Beersheba. The facility harbored an underground plutonium separation plant operated in strictest secrecy. As the years went by he grew increasingly troubled as he realized his work was part of Israel’s nuclear bomb program. In 1985, before leaving Dimona, he took extensive photographs inside the factory in order to documentthe truth for his fellow citizens and the entire world.

Traveling through Asia with the film in his backpack, Vanunu made his way to Sydney, Australia, where he found companionship in an Anglican church social justice community with whom he shared the story of his nuclear background. In Sydney he also converted to Christianity and was baptized in July, 1986. A British newspaper, the London Sunday Times, learned of his story and sent a reporter to Sydney to check it out. The newspaper then flew Vanunu to England, where his photos and facts were further checked by British scientists familiar with nuclear weapons. Vanunu’s story, published October 5, 1986, gave the world its first authoritative confirmation that tiny Israel had become a major nuclear weapons power, with material for as many as 200 nuclear warheads of advanced design.”

http://www.nonviolence.org/vanunu/morestory.html

Comment #81635 by Ernest Canning on 6/26

Ernest… here is something for trudig’s zionist heckler. May be this image, in the eyes of “ill&lie;”, shows Palestinians hiding behind “skirts” to attack Israelis?

Ill-lie… acts like he doesn’t know about Israel’s racism. All non-Jewish citizens are 3rd & 4th class citizens in Israel.

If a Jewish Israeli citizen converts to another religion, he/she loses that “superior class” status.

Ill-lie…thinks that he is clever & cute with juvenile posts!

******************************************************

IT HAS BEEN SAID THAT A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS. EVEN WITH A THOUSAND WORDS, HOW CAN ONE DESCRIBE THE LOOK IN THE EYES OF A 13 YEAR OLD PALESTINIAN BOY BEING USED BY ISRAEL’S IDF AS A “HUMAN SHIELD” ?

THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS THAT THERE IS SOME STORIES & TRUTH THAT CAN ONLY TOLD WITH PICTURE(S).

Take a look & read the TRUTH of this story:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1018

lilmamzer the truth of the matter is that when it comes to killing, somehow I get the feeling you love it. You don’t want to find a peaceful solution, only more genocide and the fact you see no wrongdoing whatsoever on Israel’s part in this matter makes you either a blind man, or a man with the most closed mind I’ve ever encountered. Both sides are killing children and neither side recognizes the other. You say stay the course and I say that is madness.

#81619 by Robert on 6/26 at 6:48 pm
In this post, you (Robert) provided substantive factual information, about the killing that has been ongoing, for years, as a result of Israel’s illegal occupation of the various Palestinian territories, and the genocide of that population, at the hands of the Israelis. It’s all fact, and you have wisely narrowed it down, to quote the killing frame to a time since Sept. 2000. (which means you aren’t even asking lil-neurotic- mamzer, to account for the first several decades of the massacre that was one sided….he or she only needs look at the past 5 or even 10 years, to know, (intellectually at least) what the truth is on the ground.

Now, lil-neurotic-mamzer, responds (typically) in this post:
#81627 by lilmamzer on 6/26 at 7:36 pm

In the response, lilmamzer does the normal, which is to completely ignore these facts, and start in with the whole thing about how it’s all justified for Israel to do this in “self-defense”. It’s bullshit. The lil neurotic Zionist KNOWS that it’s all bullshit, because facts speak for themselves, but he or she will remain in aggressive denial until the end of his or her(s) own personal existence.

The little hypochondriac whiner that is lilmamzer, simply avoids all of the truth, and lies to say that the resistance activities on the part of the Palestinian ARABS, actually TARGET children and civilians, when in fact that is totally false, and totally absurd, seeing as how the enslaved populations of Palestinians don’t have the kind of weapons that COULD specifically and intentionally target Israeli civilians, INCLUDING children. The only “weapons” that have been at the disposal of the resistance, have been those old ass Quassam rockets, (not exactly precision instruments of destruction) and a rash of suicide bombings from back in the early 80’s, and of course those big old stones that the Palestinian kids in the slums or Gaza, or the camps of the West Bank, throw at the IDF tanks that role through their neighborhoods.

Lil-mamzer in denial, refuses to acknowledge that fact that it was HAMAS, back in the mid-80’s, who was able to control and stop those incidents of suicide bombs, or that even in the twisted mentality of those suicide bombers, they were never “instructed” to target civilians, but rather the SOLDIERS of the occupation. (which is perfectly legitimate in a war.) The “mamzer-in-mental-distress” also refuses to acknowledge that it was Israeli “soldiers” that were kidnapped last summer, (by Hezbollah) in the hopes of exchanging them for some of the 10,000 men, women and children that Israel has imprisoned, (all civilians) and held without charge for years.

All of these details have been totally ignored by the limited reason of the lil-mamzers of the world, and consequently, it’s pretty much a waste of time and energy to try and attempt any reasoned or principled argument with them. Fortunately, this is really not the mentality of the average Israeli citizen today, and because it is not, there may in fact be some hope of a resolution, if and when Israel no longer has the unconditional support of the Israeli Lobby here in the US, which puts the world’s (allegedly) strongest military and political-economic power at Israel’s disposal.

Lil-mamzer also knows, (intellectually) that the social parameters of the Israel/Palestine conflict spell APARTHEID, and intellectually, he or she knows that this is as immoral today, as it was centuries and decades ago, in any of the places where it has been allowed to occur. But, we aren’t hearing that from lilmamzer, and so we know that he or she is clearly challenged from a “moral” standpoint, and has obviously traded in whatever intellectual capacity that he or she might have, because the two cannot be reconciled in his or her own mind.

Meantime, lilmamzer is planning to buy some stock in Caterpillar, apparently without the realization that the Bin Laden Group, Inc, holds most of that stock. Ironic, eh?

Robert, I have long since given up on our resident fascist/Zionist poster, lilmamzer, who didn’t even have the intellectual courage to respond when I called him out for the bald-face lie he told when he said that Prof. Norman Finkelstein was denied tenure on substantive grounds. 

Lilmamzer reminds me of former Congressman Langrebbe, who was one of only two members of the House who said he would still vote against articles of impeachment against Richard Nixon after the “smoking gun” admissions were discovered on the Oval Office tapes.  When asked by the press how he could still oppose impeachment given the state of the evidence, Langrebbe said, “Don’t bother me with the facts.  My mind is made up.

No matter how much evidence you present to show that it is Israel’s brutal occupation that is “the” source of continued conflict, lilmamzer will “never” admit it.  His is the tiny mind of the “true believer”—fascist/Zionist to the core.

#81619 by Robert:

WHO IS DOING MORE KILLINGS?

Certainly it is only the Palestinian Arabs who intentionally target innocent civilians as a matter of policy. Germany suffered more losses by far than did the Allies, yet they were the aggressors in WWII and brought it upon themselves. The analogy holds. Lately the Palestinian Arabs are killing each other.
—————————

WHO IS KILLING AND SLAUGHTERING MORE CHILDREN?

That would be the Palestinian Arabs. There is a huge moral difference between those who specifically seek out children for murder, and those who, in defending their citizens from such attacks, accidentally cause unintended civilian deaths. Which, as has been documented many times, is usually the result of Palestinian Arab terrorists literally hiding and firing from behind the skirts of non-combatant Arabs.
————————-

WHO IS COMMITTING MORE “TERRORISM”?

The Palestinian Arabs are the ONLY ones committing terrorism. The Israelis are resisting this immoral and illegal aggression.
————————-

WHO IS OCCUPYING WHO?

Israel is occupying the sovereign State of Israel, of course.   The Arabs of Gaza, Judea and Shomron are occupying territory in which they are not the sovereign power.
————————-

WHO HAS THE MOST SOPHISTICATED AMERICAN MADE WEAPONS?

Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, and Israel do, within a 1500km radius. Can you imagine the scale of the slaughter of Jews if the Palestinian Arabs had similar quality and quantity of weapons?
————————-

WHO HAS THE LARGEST STOCKPILES OF NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS IN THE REGION?

Syria and Egypt probably have the most chemical and biological weapons. Perhaps Israel has some nukes. How is that relevant? Has Israel used nukes on Palestinian Arabs? Don’t you think that would cause more than the 1023 casualties you cite?
————————————

FROM THE ABOVE NUMBERS… WHO IS IT? IS IT ISRAELIS OR THE PALESTINIANS WHO ARE DOING MORE KILLINGS AND COMMITTING MORE TERRORISM?

Certainly it is the Palestinian Arabs who are committing the terrorism. That the Palestinian Arabs have lost more lives in this conflict indicates better Israeli resistance, and Palestinian Arab war crimes for using non-combatants as human shields.

#81619 by Robert:

Ill-lie-maz-sic…your zionist crap is up to your waist. Your posts are like a dull echo with NO substance and No sense of direction. Your racist evil zionism is your worst enemy and your best friend on truthdig…and other areas.

Your numbers game is meaningless because you do not provide the proper context for those statistics.

The most important thing to remember is that Israel has a moral responsibility to defend her citizens from terrorist attacks which specifically target innocent civilians. In responding to those attacks, and acting preemptively when information allows, the citizen army of Israel is doing what is both morally justified and morally required during wartime. It is not the fault of Israel that the Palestinian Arab terrorists use civilian areas from which to hide and operate. They bear the burden of responsibility for not only bringing the terror war to Israel but to the non-combatant Palestinian Arab population as well.

Your numbers display is worse than misleading without the proper context.

Oh, yeah, again with the racist evil zionist nonsense? Please explain how race enters into the discussion? How is an Israeli Jew racially distinguishable from an Arab? Are you referring to black African Israeli Jews? Or white-skinned Jews with blue eyes who were born in Baghdad? Or darker-skinned Jews who were born in Morocco?
==========

FIXED IT

#81619 by Robert:

Ill-lie-maz-sic…your zionist crap is up to your waist. Your posts are like a dull echo with NO substance and No sense of direction. Your racist evil zionism is your worst enemy and your best friend on truthdig…and other areas.

Your statistics game is meaningless because you do not provide the context in which those numbers accrued.

The most important thing to remember is that Israel has a moral responsibility to defend her citizens from terrorist attacks which specifically target innocent civilians<b>. In responding to those attacks, and acting preemptively when information allows, the citizen army of Israel is doing what is both morally justified and morally required during wartime. It is not the fault of Israel that the Palestinian Arab terrorists use civilian areas from which to hide and operate. They bear the burden of responsibility for not only bringing the terror war to Israel but to the non-combatant Palestinian Arab population as well.

Oh, yeah, again with the <racist evil zionist nonsense? Please explain how race enters into the discussion? How is an Israeli racially distinct from an Arab?

SINCE SEPTEMBER 29, 2000 TO DATE:

TOTAL PALESTINIANS KILLED BY ISRAELIS: 4,160

TOTAL PALESTINIAN CHILDREN KILLED BY ISRAELIS: 943

********************************

TOTAL ISRAELIS KILLED BY PALESTINIANS: 1023

TOTAL ISRAELI CHILDREN KILLED BY PALESTINIANS: 118

—————————————————-

WHO IS DOING MORE KILLINGS?

WHO IS KILLING AND SLAUGHTERING MORE CHILDREN?

WHO IS COMMITTING MORE “TERRORISM”?

WHO IS OCCUPYING WHO?

WHO HAS THE MOST SOPHISTICATED AMERICAN MADE WEAPONS?

WHO HAS THE LARGEST STOCKPILES OF NUCLEAR, BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS IN THE REGION?

FROM THE ABOVE NUMBERS… WHO IS IT? IS IT ISRAELIS OR THE PALESTINIANS WHO ARE DOING MORE KILLINGS AND COMMITTING MORE TERRORISM?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org

B’TSELEM(The Israeli information center for HUman Rights in the Occupied Territories).

http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp

Ill-lie-maz-sic…your zionist crap is up to your waist. Your posts are like a dull echo with NO substance and No sense of direction. Your racist evil zionism is your worst enemy and your best friend on truthdig…and other areas.

Your barking is that of a barking rabid dog in the neighborhood’s driveway!

Most of the people on this and other threads are sick of your stenchy zionist garbage. You need to volunteer for your Israeli IDF humanity department. May be you can keep track of the killings committed by their brutal soldiers or just may be you can deny it ever happened! You will make a good IDF computer nerd!

WE ALL KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THE ABOVE QUESTIONS!

#81602 by Michael Shaw:

Lilmamzer….How anyone can see good out of what you promote is beyond reason.

What is it, exactly, that you think I’m promoting that you find so objectionable?
————————

As for Fisk, he’s only lived in the Middle East for decades! What does he know?

So what? It’s not where he lives and what he knows, it’s what he believes. Do you honestly think Fisk doesn’t know that Hamas is a terrorist organization that specifically targets
Jewish children for murder? Of course he knows it. Is it an issue for him? Does he believe that adopting a genocidal covenant discredits both Hamas and those Palestinian Arabs who voted for Hamas to represent them as their government? You could never tell from his writing. In fact, it’s reasonable to infer from Fisk’s slanted take on things that Hamas is the aggrieved party and that their mission to slaughter innocent Israeli civilians is moral and just. He never even suggests otherwise.

====================

FIXED IT

#81602 by Michael Shaw:

<b>As for Fisk, he’s only lived in the Middle East for decades! What does he know?

So what? It’s not where he lives and what he knows, it’s what he believes. Do you honestly think Fisk doesn’t know that Hamas is a terrorist organization that specifically targets
Jewish children for murder? Of course he knows it. Is it an issue for him? Does he believe that adopting a genocidal covenant discredits both Hamas and those Palestinian Arabs who voted for Hamas to represent them as their government? You could never tell from his writing. In fact, it’s reasonable to infer from Fisk’s slanted take on things that Hamas is the aggrieved party and that their mission to slaughter innocent Israeli civilians is moral and just. He never even suggests otherwise.

September 12, 2006

The Moral Bankruptcy of Israel’s Founding Idea
The Coming Collapse of Zionism
By KATHLEEN CHRISTISON
Former CIA Analyst

“Is it only observers outside the conventional mainstream who have noticed that by its murderous assault on Lebanon and simultaneously on Gaza, Israel finally exposed, for even the most deluded to see, the total bankruptcy of its very founding idea?

Can it be that the deluded are still deluded? Can it truly still be that Israel’s bankruptcy is evident only to those who already knew it, those who already recognized Zionism as illegitimate for the racist principle that underlies it?

Can it be therefore that only the already converted can see coming the ultimate collapse of Zionism and, with it, of Israel itself as the exclusivist state of Jews?

Racism has always been the lifeblood of Israel. Zionism rests on the fundamental belief that Jews have superior national, human, and natural rights in the land, an inherently racist foundation that excludes any possibility of true democracy or equality of peoples. Israel’s destructive rampage in Lebanon and Gaza is merely the natural next step in the evolution of such a founding ideology. Precisely because that ideology posits the exclusivity and superiority of one people’s rights, it can accept no legal or moral restraints on its behavior and no territorial limits, for it needs an ever-expanding geography to accommodate those unlimited rights.

Zionism cannot abide encroachment or even the slightest challenge to its total domination over its own space—not merely of the space within Israel’s 1967 borders, but of the surrounding space as well, extending outward to geographical limits that Zionism has not yet seen fit to set for itself. Total domination means no physical threat and no demographic threat: Jews reign, Jews are totally secure, Jews always outnumber, Jews hold all military power, Jews control all natural resources, all neighbors are powerless and totally subservient. This was the message Israel tried to send with its attack on Lebanon: that neither Hizbullah nor anything in Lebanon that nurtures Hizbullah should continue to exist, for the sole reason that Hizbullah challenges Israel’s supreme authority in the region and Israel cannot abide this effrontery. Zionism cannot coexist with any other ideology or ethnicity except in the preeminent position, for everyone and every ideology that is not Zionist is a potential threat.

In Lebanon, Israel attempted by its wildly reckless violence to destroy the nation, to make of it a killing zone where only Zionism would reign, where non-Jews would die or flee or prostrate themselves, as they had during the nearly quarter-century of Israel’s last occupation, from 1978 to 2000. Observing the war in Beirut after the first week of bombing, describing the murder in an Israeli bombing raid of four Lebanese army logistics techs who had been mending power and water lines “to keep Beirut alive,” British correspondent Robert Fisk wrote that it dawned on him that what Israel intended was that “Beirut is to die . . . . No one is to be allowed to keep Beirut alive.” Israeli Chief of Staff Dan Halutz (the man who four years ago when he headed the Israeli Air Force said he felt no psychological discomfort after one of his F-16s had dropped a one-ton bomb on an apartment building in Gaza in the middle of the night, killing 14 civilians, mostly children) pledged at the start of the Lebanon assault to take Lebanon back 20 years; 20 years ago Lebanon was not alive, its southern third occupied by Israel, the remainder a decade into a hopelessly destructive civil war.”

http://www.counterpunch.org/christison09122006.html

Lilmamzer….How anyone can see good out of what you promote is beyond reason. Steven is right! This revolving circle of hatred has no end. As for Fisk, he’s only lived in the Middle East for decades! What does he know?

#81500 by Marshall:

Until they prove otherwise, the reason is simple: they mean it when they say they will destroy Israel.

The Jewish nation has learned many things in the past 3000 years, and one of them is this:

When the enemies of the jews openly declare their intentions to wipe out the Jews, their words are taken at face-value.

So when Hamas codifies its genocidal ambitions in its coveneant AND tries to make good on it in so many ways (bus bombings, pizzeria bombings, machine-gun slayings in shopping malls, Kassam rockets on Israeli kindergartens, the list is long), it doesn’t take a genius to understand: they mean it.

Likewise, Ahmadinejad in Iran says the same things, and backs it up by funding the same Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists who are targetting and killing Israeli children.

They mean what they say and then they act on it.

And yet, Cyrena was unaware that Hamas had such a covenant after 4 years of study?

Makes me wonder where she was studying.

#81531 by Michael Shaw: 

I guess that is why people like Robert Fisk see little hope.

Ideologues masquerading as journalists like Robert Fisk never see the good things. They make their livings rubbing salt in the wounds by skewing facts and situations when they’re not just inventing them outright.

If agitprop didn’t exist for Robert Fisk to generate on rags like Truthdig, he would have invented it.

#81500 by Marshall:

Which only makes it seem odder that you didn’t even know the Hamas charter existed until now.  It’s not like they’ve been hiding it or anything.

I haven’t decided if what we see here is the purest form of naivete, willful ignorance, or just plain disingenuous posturing. Probably some of each.
———————- 

<<I have never doubted that Hamas, or ANY of the other resistance groups that have formed as a result of this occpation, would without a doubt, be willing to say, “WE RECOGNIZE ISRAEL” It’s just really NOT a big thing for them to say that.>>

Without a doubt, she says???

Here is where I would vote for naivete, then.

When a terror group such as Hamas crafts its self-defining ideology around the destruction of its neighbor, and in the process foregoes nation-building in the pursuit of that genocidal agenda such that the general population continues to suffer from economic stagnation and aid monies diverted to weapons purchases, it cannot afford to upset its own apple cart that way. In other words, they have staked their reputation and raison d’etre on killing Israel, not accepting Israel.

Hi Steven, I appreciate your comments and can see Cheney rubbing his hands as we speak. Your analogy makes sense! That is why I believe we should alleviate our presence in the Middle East peace process. Our being involved in the “middle” has resulted in more overall violence, just as our invading Iraq has given new life to the nearly decimated Al Queda. Our alliance to Israel(and to oil) makes us illegitimate as peace brokers. It is also one of the reasons leading to the 9/11 attacks. That in itself should be enough of an eye opener but as you said, non of this is based in logic unless we analyze the logic in greed.

The bottom line is our world leadership role sucks as does our so called peace brokerage. If we had any decency at all we would step back and let the UN do what it was created to do. But we won’t because of people like Cheney who, like bad weather, are always with us. 

I guess that is why people like Robert Fisk see little hope. And without hope there can only come more violence.

#81415 by cyrena on 6/26 at 2:08 am

<<Actually, I’ve been stuying this for the past 4 or so years>>

Which only makes it seem odder that you didn’t even know the Hamas charter existed until now.  It’s not like they’ve been hiding it or anything.

<<I have never doubted that Hamas, or ANY of the other resistance groups that have formed as a result of this occpation, would without a doubt, be willing to say, “WE RECOGNIZE ISRAEL” It’s just really NOT a big thing for them to say that.>>

I prefer to let those organizations speak for themselves since I have no insight into their thinking as apparently you do.

All they need to do is remove their call for the destruction of Israel from their charter and acknowledging its right to exist, and negotiations can move forward.  Simple, really.  But despite repeated calls, you don’t see them doing that now do you?  Until they prove otherwise, the reason is simple: they mean it when they say they will destroy Israel.

Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, May-June 2007, pages 23-25

Outside the Beltway
Ilan Pappé’s Latest Book Exposes Zionist Ethnic Cleansing as Premeditated
By James Abourezk
 

“A NUMBER OF years ago a book publisher asked me to co-author a book on the Arab-Israeli dispute with Hyman Bookbinder, a spokesman for the American Jewish Committee. The book was titled Through Different Eyes, and the publisher was an American Jew by the name of James Adler. Given that the Palestinian side had never gotten the coverage that it should have, the fact that both Adler and Goldfarb pushed the idea will lead me to argue against anyone who tries to say that the American Jewish community is monolithic in its view toward Israel.

But how I wish that Ilan Pappé had already written The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine (also available from the AET Book Club) when I was studying the matter in depth. His excellent book on the subject was written with an historian’s eye, using in-depth research, diaries written by the leaders of the Zionist movement, and interviews whenever they were available. The story he tells of the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is one, as Pappé says, that has been largely ignored in the Western media. As a result, the Israelis have been given virtually free rein to do whatever they have wanted with the Palestinians and with the land the Zionists stole both before and after the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, with little or no complaint by the world community—and, in particular, little or no complaint by the United States government and media.

The monstrous tragedy of the European Holocaust during WWII became a bonanza for the Zionist movement and its leaders. Pappé informs us, however, that the plans by the Zionists to take over Palestine and make it their own country were first developed beginning in the 1920s, then supplemented during the 1930s and 1940s.

It was clear to the leadership, notably David Ben-Gurion, that the Zionist project could only be realized through the creation in Palestine of a purely Jewish state, without the inconvenience of Palestinians to muck things up. That was the objective, and the means to achieve this objective continued to develop as the years went on. What is troubling about Pappé’s revelations is that so much of the planning by the Zionists to take over all of Palestine by force was done without any real public disclosure either by the press or by historians.

In December of 1947, Ben-Gurion made a speech to senior members of his party—the Mapai—in which he noted that the U.N. partition resolution, 181, that was so disastrous for the Palestinians, left “40 percent non-Jews in the areas allocated to the Jewish state…Such a demographic balance questions our ability to maintain Jewish sovereignty…Only a state with at least 80 percent Jews is a viable and stable state.”

It should be noted here that Resolution 181 was passed by the U.N. General Assembly, thus making it a non-binding resolution, unlike Security Council resolutions. But that mattered little, as the Zionist movement seized on its passage and has ever since argued that the U.N. created Israel. To the misfortune of the Palestinians, the dozens of non-binding General Assembly resolutions passed since that time requiring Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories have been ignored by Israel and by its chief sponsor, the United States.

What aided the Zionists in their cleansing project was the inventory the movement took of each Palestinian village during the mandatory period following World War I. That inventory included a topographical map of each village and its surroundings, the names of Palestinians who might be a threat to the cleansing operation, as well as the “Hebraic” origins of each village. It was thought by the Zionists that some of the villages were “quite new,” having been built in the 1830s.”

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2007/0705023.html

Comment #81424 by Cyrena on 6/26 at 3:49 am

January 29, 2007

“We Are All Victims of the Occupation”
Let Our Children Live
By NURIT PELED-ELHANAN

“Bassam Aramin spent nine years in an Israeli prison. He belonged to Yasser Arafat’s Al Fatah in the Hebron area and attempted to throw a grenade at an Israeli army Jeep in occupied Hebron. Last Wednesday morning, an Israeli soldier in a jeep in his village of Anata, on the West Bank, shot his nine year old daughter, Abir, in the head. The soldier will not spend an hour in jail. In Israel, soldiers are not imprisoned for killing Arabs. Never. It does not matter whether the Arabs are young or old, real or potential terrorists, peaceful demonstrators or stone throwers. The army has not conducted an inquiry in Abir Aramin’s death. Neither the police nor the courts have questioned anyone. There will be no investigation. As far as the Israeli Defense Forces are concerned, the shooting did not happen. The army’s official account of her death is that she was hit by a stone that one of her classmates was throwing “at our forces.”

We who live in Israel know that stones thrown by 10 year olds do not blow brains out. Just as we see every day the Israeli jeeps circling Palestinian children on their way to and from school and greet them with stun-bombs, “rubber” bullets and riot control gas.

A bullet penetrated Abir Aramin’s skull, while she was walking to school with her sister. I saw her just afterwards at Hadassah Hospital, where she slept quietly in a huge hospital bed. Abir’s face was white. Her huge eyes were closed. By then, she was already brain dead, and the doctors decided to allow the rest of her to die. I saw clearly that her head had been shot from behind, and I will testify under oath to that fact. A young student who witnessed her shooting told journalists that the Israeli border police, who are part of the IDF, drove up to the girls as they came out of their school examinations. “The girls were afraid and started running away. The border police followed them in the direction in which they were retreating. Abir was afraid and stool against one of the shops at the side of the road. I was standing near her. The border policeman shot through a special hole in the windowof his jeep that was standing very close to us. Abir fell to the ground I saw that she was bleeding from the head.”

Abir Aramin is dead. The doctors at Hadassah will not disclose the cause of her death to her parents or her friends. Her family has requested an autopsy. Her father, Bassam Aramin, is one of the founders of Combatants for Peace. My son, who served as an Israeli soldier in the occupied territories, is also a member. They are friends. Bassam told us that he cannot rest until his daughter’s killer convinces him that nine year old Abir threatened his life or the life of the other soldiers in his jeep. I fear he will never have the chance to rest.”
=================================================

Cyrena…“In Israel, soldiers are not imprisoned for killing Arabs. NEVER.”

Dr. Nurit-Peled Elhanan is an Israeli professor/scholar who has genuine compassion for all humanity. She sees Israels “EVIL” zionist ideology, hatred, and racism…and speaks out about the injustices. In Israel, its brutal IDF shoot murder/kill a nine(9) year old Palestinian girl, they lie/deny that the incident ever happened and the IDF soldier does NOT have to worry about his cold blooded murder of this Palestinian child…NEVER.

This above article by Nuri-Peled is one of my favorites.

http://www.counterpunch.org/peled01292007.html

Cyrena and Stephen Smoliar:  The only thing that makes Cheney “rub his hands with glee” is money—lots and lots of money.

Michael (#81414), I like the way you have tried to frame this argument in terms of a dialectical opposition;  but I am not sure that synthesis will emerge from a middle ground between the opposing poles.  The alternative, sadly, is that every action taken by one extreme fuels and escalates the convictions of the other.  Thus, the “never again” obsession reinforces the rhetoric of Arab fanaticism, which, in turn, leads to “never again” thinking becoming all the more entrenched.  As this cycle becomes more and more vicious, one has to wonder whether cynena’s vision of “Cheney rubbing his hands with glee” (#81424) may have some validity:  If the primary objective of our policy is to fuel the vicious cycle, our intended result may be to go in and pick up the pieces (or oil fields) after both sides have destroyed each other.

Meanwhile, cyrena (#81415), while I appreciate your efforts to read texts beyond the rhetoric, I continue to believe that we now live in an age in which rhetoric trumps logic.  (It is the only way I can develop a satisfactory narrative for each of the last two presidential elections, not to mention the sorry state of media coverage of the news;  but that is another story.)  It is rhetoric that drives the vicious cycle I am proposing, no matter how much logic may reveal its ultimate outcome and the absurdity of the process.  We may mourn the passing of logic;  but we still have to recognize that, in our current social setting, it is, at best, on life support!

· 81259 by Robert on 6/25 at 1:00 pm

ALWAYS the VICTIM: Israel’s Presents Wars
By Tanya Reinhart

Thanks for posting this piece by Tanya. It’s excellent. I also don’t think it penetrates with some people, and that it never will. For Lilmamzer, just because of the hypocondria and the denial.

For Marshall, it’s more like a vision of Cheney rubbing his hands together as the planet blows up.
There’s something inherently sinister about anyone who can calmly call for the continued slow death of millions of people. The collective punishment mentality of the Zionists, and it really does keep them busy and fearful, because they have to oppress so many, from so many sides. It’s like running from hole to hole in a bursting dike. Always afraid that if they turn their backs on one front, they’ll get hit from the other one. They’ve got all of those nukes, but it would be hard to hit just those Palestinians, without a bit of the deadly stuff getting them too.

So, they’re in a fearful pickle, when all they have to do is stop the occupation, and allow the Palestinans to live outside of cages, and have access to food, and jobs, and educations, and all of the rest.

So, they’ll just keep doing the over proportionate and unnecessary destructions of their fellow human beings. They just don’t see them as such, and until they do, it’s a waste of energy to deal with them. They will eventually self-destruct. It’s the “cut off one’s own nose to spite one’s own face mentality”.

Still, it’s certainly helpful for other reasonable people to have access to this reality of life today, in the West Bank, and Gaza. It is not a real life for the Palestinians.

Marshall…re: your last SEVERAL posts:

I read the full charter. I also got some additional stuff from our CMES university library. Actually, I’ve been stuying this for the past 4 or so years, as soon as I knew that Cheney was going to follow up on his plan to “re-model” the Middle East, and that they were actually going to commit these crimes of war. There was never any question in anybody’s mind, who studies the international organiztions and relations between nations, that they were about to literally destroy the world, (because there was never, ever any other possiblity, and they knew that going into this madness).

So, it makes sense for any person or group engaged in provinding humanitarian aid, to try and understand the real facts on the ground…in terms of the history, the legalities, the actors, the argument, and all of that.

So, I read the Charter, and like everything else that I’ve read as I’ve done this research, I don’t find it nearly as hysterically hate-filled as you and others see it.

That’s because I can and will continue to separate the fundamental issues from all of the rhetoric. They have theirs, and you zionists have yours, and in all sincerity, I find the zionist hypochandria to be the more “dangerous” element here, because this focus on a contorted interpretation of what the “right to exist” means, in terms of Israel, and in terms of the Palestinians who have been imprisoned in Gaza for all of these years, where their conditions are horrific, and there’s no damn excuse for it, just because Zionists have some genetic mentality to hysteria and hostile agression.

You can dither back and forth about that all you want, but I have no interest in discussing what is obvious, which is that Isreal does have a right to exist, and clearly Isreal DOES exist.

The part that you don’t get, is that these other millions of people also have a right to exist as human beings. Not chained up, not imprisoned, and treated as non-citizens everywhere they are. In other words, Israel has occupied these territories, and needs to give it back.

Israel needs to follow the laws, which it has not done, in 40 years. I have never doubted that Hamas, or ANY of the other resistance groups that have formed as a result of this occpation, would without a doubt, be willing to say, “WE RECOGNIZE ISRAEL” It’s just really NOT a big thing for them to say that. It IS a big thing for you to get back to what you want them to recognize.

81236 lilmamzer, as for your summing up this situation, I see it as a whole lot more complicated than you do. The pre-war posturing of Nassar and Egypt and perhaps more importantly the complete lack of UN intervention or perhaps even an interest on their part define two of the largest elements of this situation we see today. We haven’t even begun to mention the cold war or the affects of that on this situation either. Also 48 years of a failed occupation and a failed policy should be reason enough to realize that a different road and a different approach should be taken.

It seems to me that this whole conversation is teeter tottering between two premises. The first being your own, IE… the Arab Jihad has always been and always will be aimed at Israel by Arab fanatics and the second is Israel has gone mad and overreacted in it’s own “never again” philosophy. Frankly I lean more to the latter although indeed there is some truth in both respective scenarios. That tells me that the real story lies somewhere in the middle.

The US can longer consider itself a legitimate peace broker so it should no longer be involved, be in the middle of this. The UN needs to pickup where it left off 48 years ago when it did nothing and take affective responsibility leading to a real solution to peace.

#81322 by cyrena on 6/25 at 4:43 pm

Cyrena - my post was #80852 and includes some news sources confirming what you’ll find in the charter itself.  lilmamzer mentions in his post the minimal requirement of Israel’s right to exist and herein lies the crux of this entire issue:  Israel cannot be expected to negotiate with a party that denies its very existence.  That’s just common sense.  And for the Pal. people to have actually elected into office a group which takes that stance makes them complicit in their own failure.

#81312 by lilmamzer on 6/25 at 4:02 pm

Thanks for this link lilmamzer. It’s actually the first copy I’ve seen, so that means it does in fact exist. I had checked in with our local library here, (or at least our resident expert at the library) but I haven’t heard back from her.

I did run across some other newer stuff, but I haven’t had a chance to look at much more than the bibliographies. Anyway, this is actually helpful for some of my work. I didn’t read the entire thing carefully, (yet) but what I did skim through, sounds pretty much like the other stuff they say and write. I am going to read it all though.

Hamas Covenant excerpt

from Article Seven:

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.

For those wanting to see it on a partisan web page, the same hate-filled Hamas Covenant can be found at this anti-Israel website:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

Money Quote:

from Article Thirty-Two:

Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the best proof of what is said there.  Leaving the circle of conflict with Israel is a major act of treason and it will bring curse on its perpetrators.

The Hamas Covenant can be found here:

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm

Sorry Marshall, No, I didn’t get the link on the Hamas Charter. I must have missed it, so I’ll go back and look through the thread again. I DID see a link from you a while back, that was a link to a white house gov news website. Just the regular whitehouse.gov site, and I admittedly didn’t look at that one, only because of what it was. (I do read that site frequently though, just to documentthe lies). but obviously I wouldn’t believe anything posted on THAT website, as “proof” of a Hamas Charter.

But, I will look at it though, just to see how it’s rigged up. I’ll even try to find it on some indepedent sources, and see what I can find.

I’ll let you know. It’s supposed to be something from 1988, right?

How Israel and the United States Helped Bolster Hamas

By William Bowles

January 26th, 2006

“So there’s plenty of evidence that the Israeli intelligence services, especially Shin Bet and the military occupation authorities, encouraged the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood and the founding of Hamas. There are many examples and incidents of that. But there were armed clashes, of course, on Palestinian university campuses in the ‘70s and ‘80s, where Hamas would attack P.L.O., PFLP, PDFLP and other groups, with clubs and chains. This was before guns became prominent in the Occupied Territories.

Even that, however — there’s a very interesting and unexplained incident. Yassin was arrested in 1983 by the Israelis. On search of his home, they found a large cache of weapons. This would have been a fairly explosive event, but for unexplained reasons, a year later Yassin was quietly released from prison. He said at the time that the guns were being stockpiled not to fight the Israeli occupation authorities, but to fight other Palestinian factions.

That and other incidents gave rise to — a number of diplomats and intelligence people who I interviewed, saying that there was plenty of reason to think that the Israelis were fostering the growth of Hamas. And, of course, Yasser Arafat himself, in a famous quote to a newspaper reporter a number of years ago, explicitly described Hamas as, quote, “a creature of Israel.” And he said that he discussed this with Yitzhak Rabin during their Oslo process. And Rabin told Arafat that it was “a fatal error” for the Israelis to have encouraged the growth of Hamas. The theory of it, of course, was that Hamas would be a force against Palestinian nationalism. And I think it’s clear that it ended up, to a shocking degree, backfiring against overall Israeli policy.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Robert Dreyfuss, the role of the United States in all of this; obviously, the U.S. — and many people don’t recall — that in the ‘60s and ‘70s, was not only worried about the P.L.O. itself, but the other groups you mentioned, the Popular Front and the Democratic Popular Front, which were even more radical and leftist groups than Fatah. The role of the United States while Israel was fostering a development of this movement within the Occupied Territories?

ROBERT DREYFUSS: Well, the United States, of course, has had one constant, that it was a major supporter of Israel and considered Israel an ally, so anything that looked like Palestinian nationalism was seen as a threat to Israel, and the United States, as you might expect, like Israel, refused to even discuss or admit the existence, during those early years, of Palestinians as a force or Palestinian nationalism.”

http://www.williambowles.info/isrl-pal/2006/0106/hamas_israel.html

#81269 by Marshall:

Since you’ve offered no thoughts on solving this issue, I’ll assume that you’re just going to continue whining and making ad hominem attacks from the sidelines.

Any just resolution of this conflict will necessarily take into account the needs of both peoples. That is why any proposal or discussion which doesn’t explicitly reject the genocidal and maximalist demands of Hamas, and which seeks to deny Jewish self-determination (extant now for 60 years, of course) are inherently unjust and doomed to fail. Cyrena’s posts are examples of such failures.

#81128 by cyrena on 6/24 at 11:47 pm

<<Marshall,  Sometimes I think you’re ghost writing for Dick Cheney.>>

Cyrena - sometimes I think you’re ghost writing for Cheech and Chong.  Have you bothered to read the links I provided you on the Hamas charter and its call for the destruction of Israel?  I guess not.  Since you’ve offered no thoughts on solving this issue, I’ll assume that you’re just going to continue whining and making ad hominem attacks from the sidelines.

ALWAYS the VICTIM: Israel’s Presents Wars

By Tanya Reinhart

“As obvious in Kuperwasser’s words, the Israeli narrative is that when Israel evacuated its settlers from the Gaza Strip, it has also ended its occupation there and the Palestinians’ behavior therefore constitutes ingratitude. But there is nothing further from reality than this description. In fact, as was already stipulated in the Disengagement Plan, Gaza remained under complete Israeli military control, operating from outside. Israel prevented any possibility of economic independence for the Strip and from the very beginning; Israel did not implement a single one of the clauses of the agreement on border-crossings of November 2005. Israel simply substituted the expensive occupation of Gaza with a cheap occupation, one which in Israel’s view exempts it from the occupier’s responsibility to maintain the Strip, and from concern for the welfare and the lives of its close to a million and a half residents, as determined in the fourth Geneva Convention.

Israel does not need this piece of land, one of the most densely populated in the world, and lacking any natural resources. The problem is that one cannot let Gaza free, if one wants to keep the West Bank. A third of the occupied Palestinians live in the Gaza strip. If they were given freedom, they would become the center of the Palestinian struggle for liberation, with free access to the Western and Arab world. To control the West Bank, Israel needs full control of Gaza. The new form of control Israel has developed is turning the whole of the Strip into a prison camp completely sealed off from the world.

Besieged occupied people with nothing to hope for, and no alternative means of political struggle, will always seek ways to fight their oppressor. The imprisoned Gaza Palestinians found a way to disturb the life of the Israelis in the vicinity of the Strip, by launching home-made Qassam rockets across the Gaza wall against Israeli towns bordering the Strip. These primitive rockets lack the precision to focus on a target, and have rarely caused Israeli casualties; they do however cause physical and psychological damage and seriously disturb life in the targeted Israeli neighborhoods. In the eyes of many Palestinians, the Qassams are a response to the war Israel has declared on them. As a student from Gaza said to the New York Times, “Why should we be the only ones who live in fear? With these rockets, the Israelis feel fear, too. We will have to live in peace together, or live in fear together.” [3]”

http://www.stateofnature.org/alwaysTheVictim.html

#81211 by Michael Shaw:

Invading territory that doesn’t belong to you is an offensive action, not defensive.

Quite correct.

And that is why Israel’s territorial gains during the 1948 and 1967 wars are completely justified.

The Arabs initiated wars of annihilation and they lost those wars.

The Arabs had no right to invade Israel in 1948, yet they did anyway. That they didn’t succeed in destroying Israel is a good thing and is celebrated every year as Israel Independence Day.

#81211 by Michael Shaw:

it seems to me you condone the violence Israel is dishing out as reasonable. None of it is reasonable

War is, by definition, violent. Israel is in a defnsive war against the Palestinian Arab terrorist attacks by Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and from Hezbollah to the North. I not only condone Israel’s military resistance to such Arab attacks against the Israeli civilian populace, I applaud and admire her collective will to defend the innocent against those who target them. There is nothing in life more reasonable than defending life itself. No innocent person should ever have to die for the sake of your misguided sense of what’s “reasonable”.
——————————-

If your people were herded up like cattle and walled in to suffer and starve, if your home was leveled by a US made bulldozer you might have a different opinion.

Are you referring to the anti-terrorist barrier which is being built to keep Palestnian Arab terrorists from infiltrating Israeli cities? The purpose is to keep Palestinian Arab terrorists out of Israel, and by and large it has been successful saving many innocent lives. Again, I applaud the Israeli government for initiating a non-violent means of preventing Arab terrorist attacks and defending innocent civilians. If the Arabs hate the barrier so much, they can do the simplest of all things and stop sending terrorists to bomb and shoot innocent people. As for using bulldozers to demolish homes in which terrorists use as bomb factories and exits from weapons-smuggling tunnels, that’s a good use of heavy equipment and I am going to buy some stock in Caterpillar as soon as my budget allows.