Muhammad Ali never actually served jail time, even though he refused to comply with the very country’s policies where he was given the freedom to become the rich and famous boxer he became, even with the very country’s so-called separation of church and state.

It’s lies and altered truth, like this sub-standard websight publishes, that creates the real problems in the world we live in. To clear up any confusion, getting SENTENCED and actually SERVING are two different things. So many young men served there and died…DIED! What did Ali give up? 3 years of a boxing career. Trust me, he likely made back the money he lost in endorsements…in the United States of America.

chaseme:

Was Ali’s racism a product of fear too? Or do Blacks get yet another pass?

If a white man offers an objective definition of racism and identifies Blacks as well as Whites who transgress, does he become a fearful racist? Or is it *really* those who hold Blacks and Whites to different standards who are fearful and racist?

(And doesn’t such a double-standard inform the entire public dialogue on race in the US and UK - the *mainstream racism* I mentioned in an earlier post?) 

michaelmoore2:

Do you see Ali - the 1960s follower of Elijah Muhammad - as a racist? Is the threat of racism a bogeyman?

With respect for all previous posters, I have to say that virtually all of your posts seem to encapsulate the idea that States, particularly the US, exist as permanent features of the political and economic landscape. Alas, this is illusion. Since 1945 and the tests on Japanese cities everyone has known in their guts that the Bomb means that the fundamental contract between the State and the People no longer exists. No State can protect it’s people, hence no people is willing to provide themselves as cannon fodder for their State. More fundamentally, the era of the State has ended. What seem to be States today are zombie like anamated corpses run by lawless corporations in competition with one another. This fact, not moral courage or regelious affiliation, ended the usefullness of the draft.

“In 1967 Ali refused induction into the Army, arguing that the Vietnam War violated his conscience.”

For complete accuracy your article should reflect that prior to being a consciencous objector, Ali had had another induction physical.  In this first physical he supposedly failed the mental part of the exam and was declared unfit. Everyone knew that at that time it was almost impossible to fail the army’s mental exam and so they thought the fix was in to keep Ali, who was heavy weight champ, out of Nam.  Due to public pressure he was then recalled for another physical and by that time he had converted to Islam and claim consciencious objector status.

I see by reading the comments, that there is still the Beauty in Muhammad Ali that strikes fear in many White men. Even while ailing and ageing he has a tremendous power.

What makes him my HERO is the fact that he is FEARLESS. After reading the comments, it is evident that fear is what makes you a coward. Fear is what makes you weak. Fear is what makes you vulnerable.

Ali proved that by talking it up to his opponents and standing fearless before a White ‘Just Us’ system. When he came through it all, he proved to the world that he is still a man…not a coward.

michaelmoore2:

He had no quarrel with the Vietnamese at that time because he wasn’t then an orthodox Muslim. He was a Black Nationalist ‘Muslim’ whose reasons for not wanting to fight in Vietnam were entirely unrelated to peace or goodwill, but entirely, in his own words, because:

“We are supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger [i.e., Elijah Muhammad]. We don’t take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers.”

Now, of course, he’s an orthodox Muslim, so is committed to a global Islamic empire unto which non-Muslim peoples like the Vietnamese - or Americans - must submit; or else face subjugation or extermination.

I call him ‘scum’, because I’ve read the Quran; the Hadiths; about the life of Muhammed; and about the history of Islamic expansion and empire: so I know what Ali wishes to see.

And if you can justify his former beliefs about the White race being created by a mad scientist, and their being destined to be eliminated when the real human race -Black of course- return to power… well… you’re as perverted as the system which makes him an ‘American Hero’, but I suppose not quite as sick as he himself is.

Sometimes a writer tries so hard to make his point he reaches into areas where other people are more knowledgeable and see that his motifs undermine his motives.

Does the writer know the extent of Ali’s anti-white racism and Black-nationalism during his Olympic and draft-refusal years? Does he know what Ali’s current orthodox Islam means and has always meant for non-Muslims living within its realm?

Ali is scum, given a pass by mainstream-racists because he’s black and potential black heroes are so, so thin on the ground, and all, seemingly, are compromised by their racism.

Further, does he know that fatherhood only trumps nationalism for the same reasons that Ali’s racism made *some* sense? And that if recognising the father-son relationship - or for that matter caring for your own life - makes sense, then it’s for the same reasons that Ali’s former racial-nationalism makes a lot more sense than multi-racial states.

The writer professes admiration for a man and for a principle both of which I suspect he would abjure if he understood either of them better. If he realised than ethnie IS family, he’d realise which of the two he ought not reject.

Allow a little rational thought in here, if it’s okay with you guys.

The United States Constitution, which we’re seeing violated in significant ways on a daily basis, enshrined slavery.  The American Revolution itself was partly a revolt against a British government that restricted exploitation of the North American Indians.  And we have self-consciously followed an imperial course of foreign policy since, at least, 1898.

Let us by all means struggle against the groupthink in this country which endorses aggressive wars; but let us at the same time acknowledge that it is not a recent trend, just beginning with the present Administration or with the “tragedy” of Vietnam.

These bastards in office are out for the haves and the have mores. The national debt is 8.8 trillion and climbing. The whole idea is get rid of THE FDR new deal completely ; rob the poor through out the world; install fascism to the max; The same thing my father-in -law fought against in world war two; it is time to hang these bastards: I recommend the American history book written by Kenneth c.Davis, he critiques it very well{ the ideology of these selfish wolves. Also a very articulate web site is http://www.rationalradical.com by Jack Clark.

An answer to the democratization of the American military is to go back to the draft.  Make it a universal draft so that all americans receive basic military training.  Then, in a national emergency, we can respond quickly and with massive force.  And, when we as a nation think that our military is being used falsely, we can refuse to be called up. 

People forget how important the veterans and active-duty movements were to getting us out of Vietnam.  It was because of this failure of the military structure to control incoming draftees that we dropped the draft.  And in doing so, we lost control of our own military

My grandson came under the spell of an Army recruiter in high school when he was a senior.  This was a few years back, when Clinton was president.

He asked my opinion of his joining.  With knowledge of Vietnam, our South American adventures, Iran-Contra, Desert Storm, etc. on my mind I advised against it.  I told him our government couldn’t be trusted to use him honorably; he’d be giving up all his rights of citizenship; he could well be forced to do things that were completely against his own good judgement.

Thank God he listened.  He’s an EMT Paramedic now, honorably serving his country on his own.

.......................................

Bill,

I agree fully with most of your statements. I did not mean to indicate that by picking up a gun and tidying up your Dress Uniform with ribbons of war you are absolutely doing a patriotic and “right” thing . I agree that our military should be used for actual “defense” and aid more than anything else. What other institution can lift thousands of tons over vast oceans?

Anyway,  I meant to say that someone needs to fill the ranks of our armed forces until the day that world peace comes. And in order to have and MAINTAIN a professional corps there that will someday heed the call to duty for something higher than a preventive war, some of us will have to stick through the thick and thin… I am not someone writing this theoretically or in obscurity with the hopes that others will do this for us… I have taken the oath and did a little time “studying” and recently have completed a graduate degree in history. I wanted to convey that the decision of COL Antoon’s son may indeed be a very good one and right for him but I am not willing to concede it is the ABSOLUTE best for our armed forces. Whether we like it or not we’re all in this together someway, somehow. The “blow back” unfortunately will probably not bother to make the distinction between someone who served and didn’t serve when the rage has built up enough for us to feel it once more. But then again perhaps the young Antoon will become a diplomat or teacher to the Middle East as I know OSU has an outstanding Arabic and Middle East studies program. I am merely wary of absolutes that is all.

Furthermore, realistically to me we’re not gonna have mass objection within our military to the majority of the missions in Iraq/Afghanistan, because very few of them by definition of jus im bello or just our soldiers’ consciousness are “illegal”. I think as an officer it’s important that if deployed, I go and lead young “gun-toting"men to do the right thing in a very bad situation. Perhaps many of us are just reincarnates of Pyle from the Quiet American…

And yes you’re absolutely right, the military and its related institutions needd more people “to rock the boat”... there needs to be much more critical responses to bad and possibly immoral orders than just “that’s above my pay grade”... as I’m sure you’ve heard of many times yourself while in service, sir.

But how are you ever to foster that type of new cultural institution when you have only the “dupes” and “conformers” (as many may think of service men and women under their breath) joining instead of those who attempt to think critically and stay away during a time of the institution’s greatest need for those people. Politics maybe…. but most visionary and critical people don’t go into politics! And Why would the military trust someone who never learned the workings, pains, and troubles beyond an electronic text and journal articles? These questions should have been more critically asked to the run up to the war as well, I admit!

Sorry for the wind, but I guess my beleaguered point is that simply abandoning the institution and leaving it for the poor and “back door draft” is not the best solution. And there are thousands of critical officers and soldiers working hard every day to insure a new military and better military will emerge, but they need everyone’s help… the right politicians, the right policy, and the right leaders, and most importantly the right values. Where are they to get this if all those qualities are not imbued in the men and women going into service at this time as some may suggest?

I have done a little research regarding the oaths that enlisted personnel and officers take when enlisting or beng commissioned. I do not know whether there have been any changes. 

Enlisted Oath: I, ___, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the president of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.

Officer Oath: I, A.B., do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

Note that both enlisted men and officers swear or affirm that they will support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. However, it is to be particularly noted that only the enlisted men swear or affirm to obey the orders of the president and the officers appointed over them.

The Bush regime has made our military forces into hit men, war criminals. In addition, if the above is still the oath that is taken, enlisted men are presented with a moral dilemma - do they secure and protect the Constitution or do they obey an order that is in violation of the Constitution?  Officers when confronted with an order which violates the Constitution have but one choice, that is to support and defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic protect. 

What would happen if Bush ordered our armed forces to take arms against the very people they have sworn to protect?  Do we really want blind obedience to all orders regardless of their legality and morality?

I know full well the meaning of “saying it like it is” which I did without concern for possible consequences.  In January, 1946, after I got my discharge as writer and diretor of radio shows over AFN Frankfurt, I was given a civilian assignment to continue working at AFN Munich.  Realizing the complaints, feelings and frustration of the soldiers now doing duty in the occupation, I wrote and directed a satirical soap operat ROUGH IN THE E.T., which as broadcasat twice daily over the entire AFN Network.  Evenually 3rd Army Command officials tried to censor my content,  which I only reinserted at airtime.  The brass then became outraged and furious when I did the one year anniversay May 8th program, where I specifically questioned among other thought, “what did the grave crosses and Stars of David actually prove for the future?”  Secret orders were issued for my arrest and to be taken directly to C.I.C. Detention Center, Bremerhaven.  Thanks to an Army General in Paris who enjoyed my program, helped me finally escape from running and hiding and return safely to the states on July 5, 1946..  Problem I faced, i had no passport and no papers of transit. The General was reprimanded.  Walter Winchell interviewed me for three hours to cover my story on his Sunday night broadcast.  He was forbidden by Washington to air my side.  Winchell told me to “watch your back”. I didn’t have to, the government did it for me.  I was not permitted a passport until May 1970. When I applied for a license in Albany to open a restaurant/bar in New YOrk City in 1973,I found that a dossier had been kept on me until 1972, which thwarted my ability to obtain the license. People never really think about the shoe being on the other foot.  As President Wilson said to business men in the Oval Office, “Gentlemen, it is very easy for each of you to ask when I’m going to declare war on Germany, when you and I are not the ones who will be doing the fighting”.

Thank you so much for sharing that story, David Antoon.

I’m not crying, something’s in my eye, really.

The mention of his name, the site of his face and the mention of the trail he has blazed, usually do that to me.

There’s only one Ali, the prideful, the beautiful, and for the US government and his opponents, the hand full.

How do we begin to teach the children today what he truly stood for? Well David, this story and the line, “Integrity is your most precious asset” is certainly a start.

Author #79470, I think, would advise pick up a gun and go, rather than, pick up a pen, or keyboard, and help, even if you have misgivings or inklings because “the foundation of a great institution requires their service and loyalty (critical loyalty), but more importantly their vision and understanding may help insure all the non-sense of Abu Gharib, Haditha, and extra-ordinary rendition can be put to light and help us begin to move away from those atrocities as a nation and Army.”

I agree that “the foundation of a great institution requires their .... vision and understanding” but it is these qualities, if employed, which would lead our young people to do the right thing. Stay here, learn, grow, lead, work hard and smart. Get involved in politics, in science, in leadership. Think, please think, before you conclude that patritotism = some duty related to attractive uniforms + tradition + guns + killing people.

Young people making career decisions should also understand that wars have been joined for economic reasons and to put young, inexperienced citizens to “productive” offensive, aggressive use: warring.

I have a radical, more 21st-century idea. Since the U.S. is the most technologically advanced country in the world, let’s educate our youth in the deployment of technology for defense, for highway construction, for energy conservation, for alternate fuels development, for healthcare, for diplomacy, for advanced technological defense, for marketing to the rest of the world. If there’s a genocidal leader somewhere, pinpoint his position with certainty and put him out of commission with the use of elite, professional, career fighting forces and advanced technology. Then market to the millions of the then newly unenslaved foreign populice, and potential future pernicious autocrats, what you have done. Then lead the world by economic example - a peaceful, energetic, productive, cooperative, strong, specialized society. Offer to do the same for allies, and do it where you safely can.

Guns is a four-letter word. So simple, and so wrong. Okay, okay for defense- I GET IT, Okay!? But, geez, we are bordered by oceans and allies. We can afford to do the right thing. Our greatest asset may be our creativity. Our advanced, enlighted society and leaders ought to be able to figure out better, more creative, intelligent solutions to international challenges. We need to lead by example or, as history teaches, we will be replaced.

In response to Tom’s critique, I have to say that the notion that righteous men are needed in the military to stand up to the system, although true in theory, is fraught with peril—just as in the example of the civilian Muhammad Ali. I’m sure that space constraints did not allow Col. Antoon to catalog all the problems that have become endemic to the Air Force Academy, and military service in general. Take the more recent example of Major General Antonio M. Taguba, as reported by Seymour Hersh, who was drummed out the service for giving voice to the truth. There are many other examples of men with lesser rank who followed their consciences only to be trampled by the stampede of the “Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to do or die,” crowd.
The way one gets ahead is learned early in a military career, as well as in civilian careers. It starts with basic training where one is taught to respond to commands without thinking. “You’re not paid to think!” is a comment I often heard when I was in the service. A sergeant in my unit once told me, when selecting men for his company, (during the days when conscription was in force), “Don’t give me any of those goddamned college graduates, they think too much!”
Unfortunately, in our society, the way to get ahead is learned early in most professions, not only in the military—“Don’t rock the boat!” People of conscience (whistleblowers) are castigated and accused of being traitors or worse. How to combat (a conscious metaphor choice) this problem cannot be answered in a simple essay. But perhaps the Antoons know what they are doing and are taking a step in the right direction by saying—“We won’t fight in your illegal, immoral wars!”
What if they gave a war and nobody showed up?

Both obviously are men of the “long vision” and perhaps the true power that Clausewitz termed the coup d’oeil. However, I am not hundred percent sure, COL Antoon, that your son’s decision in the end was unequivocally right and moral one. Men and women with such critical analysis and vision should engage themselves in one of the most powerful - and increasingly distrusted and loathsome- institution of our nation. As a cadet my self a few years ago, we learned to distinguish the difference between jus ad bellum and jus in bello, it unfortunately seems to me that the praises of such attitudes and actions regarding your son are condemnations of the very few that did raise their hands and took the oath to now be banished from the world of righteousness and good in order to “foolishly and immorally” fulfill jingoistic and imperial policies in far away lands. While, perhaps the vision and the big picture depicts that quite readily, I will contend that our comrades in arms are going over there with such inklings but also an understanding that the foundation of a great institution requires their service and loyalty (critical loyalty), but more importantly their vision and understanding may help insure all the non-sense of Abu Gharib, Haditha, and extra-ordinary rendition can be put to light and help us begin to move away from those atrocities as a nation and Army.

If you recall almost every major incident in Iraq/Afghanistan was reported by service men and women, but what our civilian masters and some of their military and bureaucratic underlings spin it as,  is as we say “above our pay grade”. It is time for military and civilian related services to quit that philosophy and become more critical of “the powers that be” and orders “from higher”. It will be healthy, the exact opposite of unwavering loyalty and “can-do spirit” has been displayed to us on the global scene.

So while, indeed, your son, sir, has made a great decision I would be reluctant to discount the other brave young men and women who did accept the appointment and know full well that they may be the “spear carriers” of a faulty policy but will attempt to do all they can to help not just ourselves but our beloved institution and nation to regain our dignity in the world. Step by step, quite literally, young LTs and CPTs in our armed forces are upholding our citizens’ basic values for human life and respect in the some of the absolute worst conditions in the world. We’re not all blind patriots or duped fools, the majority are upholders of the dignity that we all wish to keep and cherish in our lives.
These views are solely my own and would love to continue the discussion in private channels.

My instruction to my children about miltary service did not just come out of the horrors of what I witnessed as well as participated in in Vietnam in 1969. It came from the knowledge that there are/were people, recalcitrant people who would mythologize Vietnam the way German WW1 Veterans mythologized their loss. As being stabbed in the back; making us fight with one hand behind our back; we could’ve won if we stayed the course; the media and the liberals and bankers(all code for antisemitism) conspired to have us surrender, and the infamous we were never defeated in the field. While there were too few like Colin Powell who stayed in to rebuild the shattered army others who believed we had suffered a crises of ‘too much democracy’ in the ‘60’s. They seeded their wrong corrosive and psychotic world view as the anti media version of what really happened. The ‘kill them all and let God sort them out’ along with the happy warrior sees only a christian god always on our side and if you’re not with us you’re agin us became the core operating principle substituting for real leadership from the top down. Iraq is their bastard stepchild and I was bound not to have anyone in my family immolated in the belly of their false god.If we get a wider regional war now and the draft comes back I hope we’ll have someone such as Ali who stood everything to lose when he stood up and said no.
Thank you Mr Antoon