Pretend that someone is employed in a restaurant, and the “boss” owns the restaurant, so the employee is authorized only to act in the best interest of the restaurant.  But he decides to invite 12 million strangers in to eat, free of charge.  His thinking is that there’s food in the kitchen, so why not. 

That’s how our politicians act.  We are the boss.  We own this country.  The politicians are our employees.  They are authorized only to act in our best interest.  As soon as someone starts talking about how it is in the best of Mexico, or the Mexican people, to send their poor desperate young people to the U.S. to work, then I say they are starting from an illegitimate position.  Our politicians should never support laws or policies on the grounds that it is in the best interest of some other country.  They work for us, and they owe a duty only to us.

What’s in the best interest of the people of the U.S.  Come up with a number of immigrants per year, then enforce it.  And by the way, people from many different countries want to come here, not just people from Mexico. 

To allow 12-20 million illegal immigrants to come into the U.S. because Bush slashed the border patrol, is not in the best interests of the people of this country.  This inflow has created a terrible burden on local communities where the illegal immigrants congregate, often living 20-30 per house, turning family neighborhoods into barracks, creating horribly increased demands on police, fire, schools, healthcare, roads, water, sanitation. 

And for the most part, even if these people wanted to pay taxes, they don’t make enough money to do so.  So all the burden falls on the citizens of this country whose wages are being forced down by this influx of labor, and whose local communities are being sucked dry by the millions of new, poor residents.

And the people who say “Oh, they cut the lawn, let them stay” tend to be very wealthy people who don’t have a clue of what’s really going on for working people in this country whose job security, benefits, and wages have been slashed, and who do not consent to being forced to support millions of poor people because some rich guy wants to have his lawn cut on the cheap.

It is not rhetoric that moves people like myself to refuse the constant advance of illegal immigrants.  Of course the governments, both state and federal, if they made even a half-hearted attempt, could pursue the undocumented.  The so-called wall being constructed is somewhat a red herring and getting the public to surreptitiously feel their will is being done.  Perception is everything.  Even when there is delusion involved.  It is a good foil for politicians to say, “look see we are dealing with the problem,” when in fact they are more or less paying lip service to a final solution of immigration reform.  Most likely because most legal Americans simply do not want this country’s jobs and social service stormed.  There are reports after reports that verify this sentiment.  And to the onion-skin headed politicians, we are not as imperceptive as they might think or wish as we are aware how they pay fealty to corporations and the huge farm cartels who prey on the illegals and give them a less than humane existence.  At what Social Security Administration report are you looking?  Why should hard working people pay into a program to which they will never have access?  And if they are, it is one of the biggest travesties of justice involved in the horrid illegal immigation scam.  Supposedly they make little enough as it is, though I have my doubts since millions of those American dollars are being sent to Mexico and actually bolstering an economy that the oppressive Mexican government imposes on their people.  Mexico can either claim to have an intelligentsia that has ideas on how to improve their common people’s lot in life, or they are the most stupid of governments in the world.  What has really happened is that the United States has subsidized the country of Mexico for decades and the upper class there completely enjoy the benefits of not having to deal with their own economy.  And the United Stated has in return excessively benefited in a reciprocal profiteering at the expense and well-being of these poor people.  I feel extremely compassionate for the poor Mexicans who come illegally across the border.  And I wish their own country would make it possible for them to live in their own country.  As it is, these people are forced to become criminals as they are in fact assaulting the laws of this country.  Of course the United States needs their labor.  But the United States has the responsibility to construct a nation that either provides a reason for their own people to be able to make a livable wage and have decent benefits to protect them from the ravages of the economy, or they must provide an equitable immigrant worker program whereby peoples such as the Mexicans may work here without being demonized and or made into an outlaw society. These people are exploited by both sides of the border, on this side they impact the legal workforce, regardless of any protest to the opposite which is a deflection from the truth.  American labor is completely against any illegal workers and completely against amnesty for the 12 million who are in this country illegally.  No one, absolutely no one I know is against legal immigration.  And immigrants come from all over the world seeking employment and a better life.  What is the argument that Mexicans should have bigger piece of America?

Why is it okay for someone who is not supposed to be in America to BE in America? The pro illegal alien argument is : “Because they are already here”. This “logic” seems to be too weak to have avalanched into an amnesty movement. But,… it has. The premise illegals are presenting to us is that it is perfectly fine for them NOT to obey our laws.  Conversely, we American citizens must obey our laws.  Criminal, illiterate, and unable (or unwilling) to learn English, they gift us with the highest rate of of illegitimate births evidenced by any other ethnic group in America to date.  Capable of performing only the most menial of tasks, they are not a “value added” people. 

Some say that these illegals pay taxes and contribute greatly to the American GDP. I find these claims dubious, at best. If I am “on the run” ; trying to fly under the ICE radar ( not having been issued a proper social security card by the US government), I don’t think I would be waiving around a red flag to the IRS stating,"It is I, Jose! The illegal that crept into your country two years ago who now wants to pay my taxes!” Most likely, these illegals are accepting their income from under the table.(To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often “borrow” one.) And, instead of paying money into the American welfare system with their taxes, they are, in fact, “the” major strain upon it by unfairly accessing tax payer supported resources. Meanwhile, their population is booming (with mostly out-of-wedlock births) and I guess their strategy is to multiply and to conquer. And don’t get me started on the voting imbalance brought about by the influx of illegals into some areas of this country, the gangs; the arsonists; the drugs, and the other nasties associated with illegal immigration. If I hear one more illegal immigrant whining about how racist Americans are because someone complained that they have fifteen people shacked up in a two bedroom house, I’ll puke up some refried beans.  Why do these people think they are sooo special that they can just stroll (or run) into this country, finance a townhouse, and start working at Taco Bell or digging ditches without a pause? How dare they!  And, if I hear one more illegal alien sympathizer bleating about how there is enough of this land to “go around” (while their argument increduously skips the fact that this country is NOT a free-for-all where A-N-Y-B-O-D-Y is free to rush it’s porous borders without consequence), I will not view these people as being very bright.

This is not about racism or Hispanic bashing. I challenge any of these illegals and any of their supporters to give me a sound reason why the American people should put up with this nonsense. Comments such as, “You took this country from the native Americans and now we are going to take it from you”, do not qualify. Every people of every nation of the world have blood on their hands.  There is no such thing as an “innocent” nation that migrated somewhere and remained somewhere without acts of violence, treachery, or deceit...even the native Americans warred with other native Americans before Europeans arrived on the scene. But, once a group of people “win” this sort of territorial conflict and they establish themselves in a region of the world, they are answerable to no one regarding this land they are occupying.  That is just a fact of life on this planet for everyone. If these illegals think that they are going to conquer the American people, in this day and age, and make us kow-tow to their desultory family structure; a culture of vice, ignorance,bastards, and horrors, they are sadly mistaken.  Already, an anti-illegal movement is amassing and gaining momentum on a Congressional level.  This is about the existing laws of the US government. The American people must (and will) stand by our Constitution or we will fall for absolutely A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

Jhc #84026
Socialism is filled up with assholes just like the Republican Party is filled up with ‘em. It’s teleology stupid. The goal. And humans are learning animals (unless you are a creationist,then you are really fucked, ‘cause there ain’t no where to go. No god is going to want the putrid humans we’ve turned out to be). But good old fashioned atheists can get over the “evils” and get on with what socialist economics pretends to solve, mainly because they are so f**n objective and care about ordinary people.  All economic systems pretend something. It’s the bloody humans that invented them that make systems work.  Corporations by their very nature don’t have to be physically connected, they are however, by subscribing to the really evil Wall Street stock exchange, and yes, there is implicit plots to swindle the public and by a fiat of their very nature are co-conspirators.  You must be part of some corporation to protest so much.  Your thinking betrays your prickness. And I am certainly glad this Washington (uh, administration) doesn’t arbitrate everything because of their cretinism. Though they are doing a good job at screwing everything up.

I was speaking in a projected collective sense and I agree with both you gentlewoman and gentleman, Z & G, it is just the beginning, the beginning of the end.  We now have to rid the Democratic Party of the assholes who tried to ram that crap down the fat lady’s and our throats. Definitely Lieberman who tries to feed on the Democrats but dines with the repugnants.  In the words of Colonel Kurtz, the Horror, the Horror, the H o rrrr ooorrrrrrrrrr.  You are so right and I understand the passion of the Wobblies.

Re:  #82599 by Shenonymous

<< We gonna build dat wall!>>

YES, you promised us a wall, where is the fricken Wall?  Pardon the cliché, but if we can fly a man to the moon, how come we can’t build a wall to protect our southern border?  How long is the Great Wall China?  How long a go was that done? 

Come On Now!  Let’s Gitter Done!!

We also need to go after the illegal’s collaborators:  Those American Traitors who’ve been giving them jobs.  Those are Our jobs and the Illegals have no right to them.  If you give them our jobs, you are a Traitor.

Quite hysterically I have to thank the repugnants in DC for rocketing that immigration bill right down the toilet! I must be delirious. I think I must have had a heart attack! I don’t know about anybody else, but I danced all over da house aboudit. Even my cat started howling, and I never ever heard him do that before.  Go Zena, go girl.  ‘Cept, fagetdaboudawar thing. We gonna build dat wall!

The Pro-Amnesty crowd can easily be identified by their rhetoric.  If someone says that it’s not Amnesty then they are for Amnesty.  If someone calls the anti-Amnesty side anti-immigrant then they are for open borders or unlimited immigration. 

The Pro-Amnesty side must use distorted rhetoric to support their views because, they can’t use logical argument without revealing motives that they would be embarrassed to admit.

If someone wants the enforcement of our immigration laws, then they are logically against Illegal immigration.  The best term to describe such a position is anti-illegal-immigration.  If the opposition were to use such a term then they would be admitting to being pro-illegal-immigration.  Pro-illegal-immigration equals pro-amnesty equals pro-open-borders.  As the pro-Amnesty mayor of Los Angeles has described his position: “We should be building bridges to Mexico not walls.”

I can think of only two motives for being for Open borders:  Greed and Racism.  Rich employers want an unlimited supply of cheap labor to exploit, so as to become even richer.  The other is based on Hispanic racism or “reconquista.”

You probably know how bad the jobs situation has been getting over the last few decades.  NAFTA, outsourcing, and globalization are part of the problem for working people.  It’s all about globalizing the exploitation of the poor.

Liberalized trade policies have allowed multi-national corporations to move manufacturing to countries with the cheapest labor, but retain access to the American consumer, including those who lost their jobs when manufacturing was moved overseas.  So America was de-industrialized for the sake of big business. 

For service jobs like computer programming or answering phones at help centers that remained and required English language skills, well, those were outsourced to places like India.  Take away manufacturing and jobs that can be outsourced and what do you have left?  Agriculture, building construction, food preparation, and healthcare.  What does big business do to reduce labor costs in those areas?  It imports cheap labor from poor countries. 

The problem with importing the labor is that there are legal restrictions on how many can be imported.  So the solution for big business is illegal immigration.  “We will give you jobs if you can make it across the boarder.  And we will lobby against any government officials who try to enforce laws against illegal immigration. And periodically we will lobby the government to legalize illegal workers through Amnesty.”

The process of marginalizing the American worker for the sake of corporate profits could be reversed.  Trade policies that hurt working people could be rescinded.  Outsourcing could be abolished.  Amnesty can be defeated.  It takes a citizenry that understands what’s happening to them and why the rich are getting richer, the poor getting poorer and the middle class is shrinking.  Then it requires some politicians who aren’t complete whores and tools for the big corporations.

As far as the welfare of the illegal immigrants who have to go home, if they can’t find jobs here, well, they’re no worse off than if they never entered the US illegally to begin with.  Also, most of them would prefer to be home in their own country with their own families.  They are here for the higher paying jobs nothing more.  Don’t buy the hype about they’re here for our freedom.  That’s no more true than Bush’s explanation that 911 was because the terrorists hate our freedom.  Maybe if they if they go home in large enough numbers they can effect a revolution in their own country.

The hypocrisy of Mexico advocating for open borders is incredible.....or should I say open “border”, i.e. Mexico sure as hell is not going to open its southern border to Belize and Guatemala...but when it comes to the U.S., it is a totally different story. It is as if the U.S. exists to totally victimize the whole of Mexico...but Mexico’s dirty little secret is that people from Central America in transit through Mexico are victimized to a far greater extent than upon their arrival in the U.S. So go ahead Mexico, set an example, open up your southern border and demonstrate how great this noble concept of open borders would work…

And while you are at it...cede Chiapas back to Guatemala...but THAT will never happen, trust me on that one…

For those who advocate Open Borders for the US.  Does Mexico have open borders?  Half the population of the world exists in India and China.  Very, very poor people live in those countries.  Would Mexico be willing to take may be a half a billion of their poor?  If no why not?

Well if America annexed Mexico. . . then we’d get the poor Mexicans and we’d get the rich Mexicans and whatevers (expatriots hiding their wealth in Mexico) and we’d get Acapulco, Ole! whom we could then tax the whole kit and kaboodle to take care of their poor (and some of ours too).  All the problems are solved.  No border problems, no illegal aliens from Mexico (at least). And we could be sure those illegal aliens who would then be legal citizens pay those taxes they claim they have been paying. The IRS could hire a couple hundred new auditors, and gad the whole economy would boom.  Then those militiamen and other protestors could go home, get back to some WPE good hard work.  We could make the no-longer-needed president of Mexico an American cabinet member (I mean he sort of is now anyway).

Re:  #81089 by C Villarreal

As a self-admitted Open Border advocate you are in a group the represents less than 25% of the public.  Looking at your rhetoric anti-immigrant equals anti-Open-Borders equals anti-Amnesty.  Most American’s support limited regulated immigration. 

Who makes up the 25% of the American public that support open borders?  (by the way this is a percentage that is even smaller than the percentage of the American public that thinks Pres. Bush is doing a good job) Big business free traders who brought us NAFTA, free trade, and outsourcing.  BIG BUSINESS and their TOOLS feed on cheap labor.

Have you ever asked yourself why your are aligned with the likes of Rich Republican George Bush and Limousine Liberal Ted Kennedy.

You are a Tool of Big Business and the cheap labor lobby.

<< I didn’t say race - although there is a hell of a lot of racism in the anti-immigrant camp.  I said (or wrote) “bigotry.”>>

You didn’t use the race word.  Translating “the race” to Spanish is “la raza”.  Isn’t it a coincidence that La Raza along with MEChA are two of your Open Border advocate groups.

Before you start accusing the other side of bigotry and racism, look at your own side:

Here is a excerpt from an article by M Malkin on Reconquista

“MEChA’s symbol is an eagle clutching a dynamite stick and machete-like weapon in its claws; its motto is “Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada [For the Race, everything. For those outside the Race, nothing].” The MEChA Constitution calls on members to “promote Chicanismo within the community, politicizing our Raza [race] with an emphasis on indigenous consciousness to continue the struggle for the self-determination of the Chicano people for the purpose of liberating Aztlan.” “Aztlan” is the group’s term for the vast Southwestern U.S. expanse, from parts of Washington and Oregon down to California and Arizona and over to Texas, which MEChA claims to be a mythical homeland and seeks to reconquer for Mexico - reconquista.”

If your motive for Open Borders is not to supply business with cheap labor, then it is a racist “reconquista” one.

Would you be for Open Borders if you thought it meant millions of Indian’s and Chinese, flooding the country and displacing Hispanics as the dominant minority?

Plutocrat Ted Kennedy has been lying to the American people about the effects of unchecked immigration for over 40 years. The latest lie concerns “jobs Americans won’t do”. During this “champion of the working man’s” tenure, working class folks have seen the disappearance of the American steel industry, ship building industry, merchant marine, TV & radio building industry, heavy equipment building industry and now it’s the turn of the automotive industry in America.Free trade, which allows us to import everything from overseas while our “trading partners” restrict as many of our goods as possible is responsible for that. Do we have a trade surplus with anybody? Newt Gingrich made the foolish comment about a “post industrial age” thinking that China & India wouldn’t mind if America were to be the world’s home office and keep all the engineering, marketing,accounting and support functions. Thousands of those jobs are evaporating on a daily basis as well. Of course other functions such as machine shops,foundries and supply houses left with the manufacturing jobs. So, if Americans don’t want to wash dishes, pick up garbage or clean hotel rooms, which jobs will be left? We can’t all be senators,bureaucrats,eternal college students or their tenured professors. Surely the “New World Order” has a grand master plan for the rest of us. Perhaps they’d like to share it.

I wonder if anyone else is reading this stuff.

First grob:

“We are anti-ILLEGAL-immigration not anti-immigrant.”

Sorry I still think it’s a cover.  Is it really that people are breaking the law that upsets you?  Again, I keep telling you how many citizens people break the law all the time - and far more serious violations at that.  Why aren’t you complaining about them?  If you are I apologize.  At any rate, I would also ask whether you would support changing the immigration law (not for people currently in this country, but for people who want to come here) to allow for far more immigration in the future.  Probably not, because you are anti-immigration, not just anti-illegal-immigration.

“Perhaps Legal immigrants do, but it is estimated the ILLEGAL immigrants send half their income home to their families.  It’s estimated that billions of dollars leave the country in the process.”

And it disappears into thin air right?  Do you know how many American companies sell products in Mexico?  The U.S. economy is strong, so even if it could become a problem, it is not one now.

“Sometimes the truth sounds bad, especially if you’re on the other side of it.”

My starting point is that the anti-immigrant side is full of lies, so we’re back to “illegal alien” as a pejorative.

“Pro-amnesty is pro-business.  All business’s like cheap labor.”

Well many of them can move elsewhere to find cheap labor, but again workers with rights don’t remain cheap labor for very long.  This is why businesses prefer a guest worker program and a visa program that requires people to be employed.  They prefer cheap labor that fears deportation.

But I agree with your latter point.  Do you do as much to support labor rights as you do to oppose immigration?

Now athensugdawg:

I haven’t been paying attention to the identity theft issue because I recognize that there are far greater problems in the world.  The article you linked to said little about the consequences anyone faced - because in most cases people are just using SS #’s to get a job - they only mentioned a single incident that involved getting a cell phone and utilities - nothing about people getting credit cards and buying all kinds of items because it just isn’t happening.  Which is surprising since so many of the undocumented are in need of SS #’s and official documents.

But regardless - this is one of the reasons I think we need amnesty - so people don’t have to resort to these tactics.

“I could make just as valid an argument that “undocumented worker” is negative and inhuman...as a matter of fact, I think it is even more “negative and inhuman” than illegal alien....”

You could make that argument but it wouldn’t make much sense.  To me if you respect a person you call them what they prefer to be called.  The undocumented immigrants I know don’t like “illegal alien,” which to me makes sense anyway.

“If you are SO convinced of open borders, why not go ahead and open them tonight? So if not tonight, when?”

If there was the political will to get it done, I’d say “why not give it a try.” But I do think practical issues are worth discussion - on the Mexican side as well as the American side - I mean there are pretty open borders between Texas and Oklahoma, but that doesn’t mean you can pay in-state tuition in Austin if you live in Tulsa.  What I don’t believe is that people would be rushing over in droves.  In fact, we’d probably have a lot of people leaving, knowing that they could come back at a future date.  We might even have a large number of Americans going south - I hear the cost of living is less.

http://www.shoplifters.us

C Villarreal says

“I don’t know that this has ever been a problem for anyone, but in general it should be easy to prove the wages you actually made.  Furthermore, if we had amnesty, we could get people their own numbers.”

Geez, where have you been? Do a search for illegal-alien-identity-theft; it is like shooting fish in a barrel, I post a link to the very first article found in Yahoo:

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases/articles/06121 3dc.htm

Oh...but I forgot, you just cannot type “illegal alien”, can you…

“At any rate this is an overly-literal argument that doesn’t get at what I think is wrong with the term “illegal alien.” It sounds bad.  It sounds negative and inhuman.  That’s why you guys prefer to use it.”

Let’s see..."extended vacationers"..."undocumented but happy and servile little workers"..."harmless economic boosters”....ad nauseum. “Illegal alien” it is...hey, I could make just as valid an argument that “undocumented worker” is negative and inhuman...as a matter of fact, I think it is even more “negative and inhuman” than illegal alien....

Regarding open borders:

“Should we have open borders?  Of course.  Tonight?  Uhh probably not, however we should certainly be moving in that direction.”

If you are SO convinced of open borders, why not go ahead and open them tonight? So if not tonight, when?
Personally I would have absolutely no problem with CLOSING the borders tonight....I think that would send a strong and definitive signal that the party is over...again, hook, line, sinker....the Prez just loves people like you…

Re:  #81034 by C Villarreal

<<Most of the anti-immigrant folks>>
Again you keep missing the distinction:  We are anti-ILLEGAL-immigration not anti-immigrant. 

<< Immigrants in this country need goods and services >>
Perhaps Legal immigrants do, but it is estimated the ILLEGAL immigrants send half their income home to their families.  It’s estimated that billions of dollars leave the country in the process.

<<what I think is wrong with the term “illegal alien.” It sounds bad.  It sounds negative and inhuman.  That’s why you guys prefer to use it.  I didn’t say it was literally incorrect>>
Sometimes the truth sounds bad, especially if you’re on the other side of it. 

<<Dianne Feinstein and Ted Kennedy are not pro-amnesty; they are pro-business>>
They are both pro-Amnesty.  Pro-amnesty is pro-business.  All business’s like cheap labor.

Maybe if we got some day laborers to help out at the IRS and Social Security Offices...

“and then when all is said and done, you have to deal with Social Security to define what was actually taken legitimately”

I don’t know that this has ever been a problem for anyone, but in general it should be easy to prove the wages you actually made.  Furthermore, if we had amnesty, we could get people their own numbers.

“Supply and demand, supply and demand”

Most of the anti-immigrant folks think mostly about supply, and forgot that more people means more demand.  Immigrants in this country need goods and services, thus adding more demand. 

Another point on the supply and demand economics argument: Look at this situation globally; the supply of low-skilled labor doesn’t change at all.  If anything more unskilled labor in this country means more businesses, particularly manufacturing businesses, stay instead of relocating overseas.

“Yawn, I knew it...the racial card. Rather odd given that I have been married to a Latina for 22 years”

I didn’t say race - although there is a hell of a lot of racism in the anti-immigrant camp.  I said (or wrote) “bigotry.”

“An undocumented immigrant can be a legal immigrant who has lost his green card.  An illegal alien can have documents if they are forged.”

Thank you professor, but I meant official documents and that a person is documented somewhere - they don’t have to have their documents with them. At any rate this is an overly-literal argument that doesn’t get at what I think is wrong with the term “illegal alien.” It sounds bad.  It sounds negative and inhuman.  That’s why you guys prefer to use it.  I didn’t say it was literally incorrect - I mean many undocumented immigrants actually have wet backs - when they’re in the shower for instance - but people use that term for a reason.

The truth is I think a lot of pro-amnesty folks would admit exactly what I did - you just think people like Dianne Feinstein and Ted Kennedy are pro-amnesty because the anti-immigrant pundits like to say they are.  Dianne Feinstein and Ted Kennedy are not pro-amnesty; they are pro-business.  They will actually support limited amnesty from time to time, but would also oppose it in a heartbeat if it was bad for business.  I’m more like those folks marching in the street May 1 - I really do support amnesty.

http://www.shoplifters.us

Re:  #80986 by C Villarreal

There is a difference between being an illegal alien and an undocumented immigrant.  An undocumented immigrant can be a legal immigrant who has lost his green card.  An illegal alien can have documents if they are forged.  Illegal alien is a more accurate description of what we are talking about.

By coming out of the closet as an Open Borders advocate, you make my point that Pro-Amnesty equals Open Borders.  How many Americans want open borders?  Very few.  But few Pro-Amnesty advocates have the honesty that you have to admit that they are for Open Borders.

Let’s end the hypocrisy of the Pro-Amnesty crowd, that they are for comprehensive immigration reform.  There is no real intent to increase border security or employer sanctions.  The only real goal is amnesty. 

Let the Congress vote on amnesty as a separate issue.  And, let those who vote for it, be voted out of office.

C Villarreal says

“Undocumented immigrants are overwhelmingly a benefit to Americans.  They do not drain public resources (the few we still have in this country), and few people face problems because of stolen SS numbers.  In fact, if your number gets used by an undocumented immigrant, you are probably benefiting because she or he is paying into your account and will never see a dime.”

WRONG...wages that are paid (and taxed) are reported as wages earned by the person whose SS number was stolen. Ever had to deal with the IRS? They are the definition of true efficiency and will help you get that pesky problem straightened out immediately (sarcasm intended)...and then when all is said and done, you have to deal with Social Security to define what was actually taken legitimately (well, Social Security taking monies legitimately is a laugh, but that is for another day...)

By the way, just how do illegal aliens benefit the average American wage earner? Given the present state of affairs, has the influx of illegal aliens led to an increase or a decrease in the wages of unskilled labor? Supply and demand, supply and demand...so how has does the illegal alien provide an “overwhelming benefit to Americans”? Oh...I know, one of my favorite “Bushisms"..."They do the jobs Americans will not do”. Problem is, I honestly have yet to find a job an “American won’t do"…

“It is well documented that recent immigrants commit crimes at the same rate or at lower rates than citizens.  These are just scare tactics.”

Really? SO, no laws have been broken by entering the U.S. illegally? And all of the individuals responsible for 9/11 were here legally too, right? So essentially you are saying you are O.K. with crime committed by illegals because the rate (supposedly) mirrors that of the general population...uh, try telling that to a victim (and there are plenty...)

“So, you have nothing ... oh except bigotry, hatred and ignorance.”

Yawn, I knew it...the racial card. Rather odd given that I have been married to a Latina for 22 years (and she is legal, thank you...). Look, I do not know you, what you do, etc., and I honestly do not care.  At least have some modicum of respect for someone you have only communicated with in an online forum without labeling them as a bigot, full of hate, and stupid. It doesn’t make you look too good and it severely cheapens the debate. Enough said…

Respect Our Laws

“The country’s laws provide for legal immigration,” says grob.  Obviously not sufficiently if there are millions here in violation of that law.  Here’s an analogy - the interstates used to have max speed limits of 55.  That was way too slow for people - cars were faster, people could handle it, and they wanted to get places faster.  So, the law was changed, and now people can go 70 or more.  Oh but curse all those law breakers - they’re awful people who have no respect for the law.

The laws need to be changed.  If you insist on a fine for those who are in violation, fine, then get over it.

Open Borders

Should we have open borders?  Of course.  Tonight?  Uhh probably not, however we should certainly be moving in that direction.  It is a simple matter of liberty - the freedom to move and settle where one desires is a good thing right?  And with the level of trade and communication and the increasing numbers of families and friendships that transcend the border, it is silly to actually build it up and further militarize it.  There may be practical problems to doing it right away, but we should be working on those rather than just isolating ourselves.

Demand Justice in Your Own Country

People do - all the time.  People died in Oaxaca last year fighting against their government.  The U.S. (and our tax dollars pay for this) has propped up all sorts of corrupt and sometimes downright evil regimes in Latin America.  No doubt that (and the trade deals we have forced on the people in Latin America) have something to do with the present immigration situation.

Amnesty Only Helps Big Business

No. Big business thrives on borders when they stop the movement of people without stopping the movement of commerce.  Yes if there were open borders, big business could get its cheap labor, but that labor wouldn’t remain cheap for very long if workers could agitate for better pay without the fear of deportation.  Big business wants the guest worker program - it is ideal for them - not amnesty.

athensugdawg Says

“And now, we are stuck with individuals who, for the most part, lack even a basic education, drain public resources at the expense of U.S. taxpayers ... Once here, many obtain false SS numbers (at the expense of those individuals that have had their number stolen)”

Undocumented immigrants are overwhelmingly a benefit to Americans.  They do not drain public resources (the few we still have in this country), and few people face problems because of stolen SS numbers.  In fact, if your number gets used by an undocumented immigrant, you are probably benefiting because she or he is paying into your account and will never see a dime.

“..frequently drive without the proper licenses and insurance (just ask anyone who has been involved in an accident with an illegal alien)”

I agree. We need amnesty quick so people can get real licenses and our streets will be safer.

“and when things go wrong, turn to crime as a means of survival”

It is well documented that recent immigrants commit crimes at the same rate or at lower rates than citizens.  These are just scare tactics.

So, you have nothing ... oh except bigotry, hatred and ignorance.

Re:  #80023 by C Villarreal

<<I oppose all laws that are driven by hate and bigotry - whether they are anti-gay or anti-immigrant.>>

The pro-Amnesty crowd likes to ignore the distinction between legal and illegal immigrants.  The country’s laws provide for legal immigration.  The ‘illegals’ are violating those laws.

I have always suspected that pro-Amnesty advocates were really ‘Open Borders’ advocates who were in the closet.  I’m not really asking, so you don’t have to tell, but are you really an ‘Open Borders’ advocate. 

<<… illegals …pejorative . . . dehumanize . .  CEO’s . . . drivers . . .>>

The term “illegals” does not dehumanize.  Illegals are not being called animals.  Only humans can break laws.  CEO’s that violate anti-trust laws and reckless drivers are referred to as ‘criminals’.  If the term criminal is dehumanizing so be it.  Illegals are criminals and so are people who hire them.  If you hire them then you’re a criminal too.

I want to thank the so-called “progressives” and our “President” for pushing for cheaper chicken and vegetables; we have illegal aliens marching weekly for “Justicia” in Atlanta. Isn’t it great that people can illegally enter another country and demand “Justicia” just for showing up? Those of you that support AMNESTY...(and that is what it is, regardless of what our “President” says) are being duped...you are being used in the strictest sense of the term by agribusiness, large corporations (think Home Depot), fools with misplaced altruistic tendencies, and the countries where the illegal aliens originate from. “Justicia” should be demanded in the countries of origin; we now serve as a convenient safety valve so the status quo in those countries can be maintained. And now, we are stuck with individuals who, for the most part, lack even a basic education, drain public resources at the expense of U.S. taxpayers, and by entering our country illegally demonstrate the lack of respect they have for our laws. Once here, many obtain false SS numbers (at the expense of those individuals that have had their number stolen), frequently drive without the proper licenses and insurance (just ask anyone who has been involved in an accident with an illegal alien), and when things go wrong, turn to crime as a means of survival (look up MS-13 if you don’t know what I am talking about). SO, congratulations suckers...you have officially been HAD, hook, line, and sinker...and if you think the estimate of approximately 10 to 12 million illegal aliens is right, you are sadly wrong. Great to know that so many people that bash our “President” on the myriad items that have gone so wrong agree so much on his immigration stance...doesn’t that tell you that the fish is rotten at the head???

Diablo abogado #80862
Hmmm.  Cesar was a superman. And he did worry about the suffering of the poor, the poor migrant farmers who were in America legally.  He understood the larger problem of laws and why we are obligated to obey them.  They are the only way humans can co-exist because of their selfish proclivities. I suggest you read and learn the lessons of Plato’s Laws, ancient reasoning that learned humans ought never to forget.  If the laws need changed, then it is only civilized that within the limits of the laws they need changed.

Perhaps the poor from Mexico can find ways to steal themselves into China where they need workers even more than the USA.  Mexico is not doing fine, just look at the monetary debt it owes not only to America but others like Cuba as well.  You speak baloney.  And talk about fat Americans, most Mexicans I see on TV are fat, and I wonder if they are so poor and hardworking why?  Perhaps you can study the history of the world, in depth, to see how oppressed peoples throughout have overcome the despots and autocrats that subjugated them.

Re:#80811 by Shenonymous

I didn’t mention Cesar (Salad) Chavez because he was the champion of lettuce pickers and opposed illegal immigration.  He was not an uberman.  The uberman does not worry about the suffering of the poor.  The masses do not matter. 

Mexico is doing just fine, thanks for asking.  Mexico has its own ubermen who make up a group of families than own most of the country as well as control most of the politicians.  One of these Ubermen is a multi-billionaire who owns 7% of the country. 

America needs poor people from countries like Mexico in order to bust unions, which are the enemy of the uberman.  Poor immigrants help to keep American workers from becoming spoiled.  American workers are already showing the signs of being spoiled.  Look at how fat they are becoming.  This is because they are being overfed and are lazy.  Maybe if they had to work harder and were paid less they wouldn’t be as fat.

RE: diablo abogado #80796
Looks like you forgot the great Hispanic Cesar Chavez in your elite group fo great men?  Americans don’t need to continue to subsidize the Mexican government. Mexico needs to take responsibility for their “hungry” people or those hungry people should make that government take responsibility. America is an easy mark.

What you people don’t understand is that what is best for America is best for the best of America.  The best of America is what some of you derisively refer to as the elites.  It’s these American’s that have made America great: the Edison’s, Mellon’s, Carnegie’s, Rockefellers, Kennedys, and Bush’s.  No one remembers your grandfather, because he did nothing.  If he had any value it was in service to one of these great men.

Great men, shall we call them the one-percenters, need servants to do hard mundane, and dirty work so that great men have more time to exercise their brilliance.  These ubermen do not need to be restrained by laws and taxes, that common men need to maintain order.

Political leaders lead best when they lead for the best ------- for the ubermen.  The new immigration bill supplies the ubermen with what they need: more and cheaper labor.  Commoners may not like this bill, but it is best for the wealth and well being of the ubermen.

In order for America to maintain it greatness and compete with emerging countries like China and India, it needs massive importation of low income, hungry workers of all skill levels.  The ideal would be open borders, but the populace would not go for this.

The ignorant masses should not be allowed to interfere with policies that enhance America’s greatness.  Limited immigration is an interference that is overcome through the benign non-enforcement of immigration laws and periodic amnesty for non-criminal undocumented workers.

Common folks can and should be placated with promises of reform and renewed efforts of enforcement.  It worked in 1986 and it will work now. 

If enforcement had been implemented in 86, then we would need more than just 400 thousand guest workers:  We would need 12 million and 400 thousand guest workers.  On its face the common folks would have rebelled, but done over 20 years most of these commoners are unaware of what is happening until it is too late.

Great leaders, great politicians are those who can get their followers to do what is not in their best interest.  A great leader can get his followers to drink the Kool-Aid.

It is important that all you progressives follow your Democratic leadership.  The Democratic leadership has determined that it is in all our best interests to bring undocumented workers out of the shadows and give them a path to citizenship.  If we do this we have been assured by our Latino brothers, that Latinos will show their appreciation at the ballot box.  Most immigrants are poor and minorities, and since we care for poor minorities, more than Republicans, they have to vote for us.  The path to citizenship may take some years, but it will assure us Democrats long term dominance.

CVillaeal #79847
That illegal non-citizens serve in the military is a poor argument.  They are making a lot more money than they would picking cotton or mowing lawns. And they get quarters without rent, and square meals daily.  And they get to go to college if they survive their tour of duty.  Sure they are putting their lives at risk, but they have practiced that by crossing the borders illegally.  How many die each month trying to do that too. But NABNYC #80034 gives us a more sinister motive of the Bushites.

heiderose1 #79611 the term illegal means they are in this country without legal citizen status. You know that, yet you feign ignorance. The preposterous idea that sending the illegals back to Mexico would destabilize that country even more is bull crap. That country is mentally unstable and always has been since the US won that religious war about the border (the Manifest Destiny bull crap business) and especially the Texas War of Independence!  You know, remember the Alamo? But border wars are ancient human history worldwide.  Every border in Europe was bitterly fought for and is going on today especially in Africa.  Look at Pakistan and India.  It is not a new pathology.  The epoch of Mexico’s elitist government has been continuous since the early 19th century is the reason those people are so f****n poor.&nb