Oops!  That’s “Hamas holds the high cards.” Mea Culpa!

To Tony Wicher, Robert, Fadel, Atheo and other truthdiggers who are prepared to confront Zionist propaganda with a dispassionate recitation of facts, our resident Zionist fruitcakes, Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach and lilmamzer have found a new post, “Hamas holds the right” where they are again espousing their usual drivel.  You might want to check it out.

79272 JBLOGGZ Israel is of strategic importance in the bid to dominate all the oil and natural gas in the region. They have been our police dogs for years. I believe at least part of the idea in allowing a Jewish state was so the US (and Britain) could maintain a strong foothold in the region.

Well Steven, it appears we are practically neighbors. I hail from Santa Cruz. It appears they are outsourcing everything, even the news. I wonder what’s next? Outsourced politicians?

Lefty what makes you believe that will happen?

Michael (#79274), broadcasters are not the only ones “faking locality.” At least one Reuters story about contaminated cat food, while released through the Reuters: US News feed, was actually written in Bangalore!  Check out the details at:

http://therehearsalstudio.blogspot.com/2007/04/o-brave -new-world-that-has-such-people.html

# 79238 Brilliant analogy Steven. As we must be careful ourselves in how we communicate to others we must also be careful when others communicate with us. We must also be able to delve and read between the lines. Clearly the better we understand our own language the better we can break it down and find the real message. You know frankly I don’t think most people are careful or perhaps even capable enough, especially when it comes to major media. To me, major media for the most part is merely a propaganda tool. Of course all nations expel their own brand of rhetoric. But if anyone today actually believes we have a free broadcast media they should look to the consolidations of the FCC who took 50 major news outlets from a decade ago and consolidated them into 5 outlets today. Independent media has been virtually gobbled up. What cracks me up is groups like clearchannel who own about 40% of the media in our country try to make their local news team seem local. They even fly out their media whores and film them locally to give them a feel of community to the mostly unaware public. The joke of course is they are not local, far from it and they have no real commitment, stake or investment in our community. Of the 3 so called local broadcaster we have here in the central coast, only one of them is actually local.  This has happened all over the nation. Chicago’s News comes from the south. California’s news comes from the mid-west etc etc. But they keep telling us they are local. In effect they are lying to us. Now how can we trust news from anyone who can’t even tell us where they’re broadcasting from?

Michael (#79147), actually, one of the things I try do regularly on my own blog is find examples where people play fast and loose with the language they use and then try to tease some underlying truth about of that sloppy usage.  Today’s exercise, for example, deals with the buzz around THE KINGDOM, the new cop movie set in Saudi Arabia; and my “victim” is a consultant for this project who happens to work for Kissinger’s consulting firm:

http://therehearsalstudio.blogspot.com/2007/06/reading -through-buzz.html

What I believe such exercises demonstrate is that, while knowledge definitely CAN BE powerful, as Ernest (#79093) reminded us, DISINFORMATION is often MORE powerful!  Thus, it is up to all of us to recognize disinformation when it is being spooned out to us and burrow under it in search of the knowledge it is trying to conceal.

See I already screwed up! 7 Afghan children killed in Iraq. Meant Afghanistan! Oooopps!

#79015 Thanks Robert! I’ll do my best!

You know I am not one of those having to be politically correct kind of dudes. As a strong advocate to free speech, I also don’t generally try to tell people what they should or shouldn’t say either, but I do believe it’s important in being careful in what one says because often one word or mis-phrase could change the whole body of a discussion. I am certainly not infallible. I’ve made a few whoppers in this blog already!

To get to the point, I was listening to the news today about the 7 Afghan children killed in Iraq by a US raid. The clearchannel despots referred to them as “kids” and the local channel, the one I prefer referred to them as children. Now this might not seem all that different or that big of a deal. But to me there is a world of difference. A kid is a goat and a child a human being. Mistrusting major media as much as I do, I took this as an affront, a cheapening of human life concerning this event. Perhaps I’m being manic here, I knew what they meant by kids. But I do believe we must think about what we say before we convey it to others. Just the way we say something changes the entire story.(I’d like to hear what Steven has to say about this)

It’s pretty damn hard not to refer to Jews concerning Israel. I realize that and yet I knit picked about an article simply because it referred to Judaism rather than Zionism. I realize most Zionists are Jews, but I couldn’t help myself in saying not all Jews are Zionists. Perhaps I did so simply because I admire many Jews, starting with a high school English teacher who was the best and most beautiful teacher I ever had. Or perhaps I say it because I am partly Jewish myself and ashamed of what the Israeli government is doing. I don’t know what it is. Maybe I’m just going crazy. But to me the ethnic war that people seem to be talking about is really not an ethnic war, but a struggle among Semites. Brother killing brother over land and ideology. It is not much different than northern Ireland, the colony created in Ireland by the British. As we know, the bloodshed there lasted for hundreds of years. Several centuries! Basically Scot killing Irish and vice versa. Catholic killing Protestant, brother killing brother.

Anyone with an inkling to history knows the Scottish came from Ireland. They migrated to Scotland and were an Irish tribe know as the Scotti. Later the English exploited them to war on Ireland, thus creating the northern state within a state. Now I’m sure that even today and knowing the hostilities have finally stopped, if I were to go to a Scottish pub and tell those folks they were Irish I would get punched in the mouth! Same goes in Ireland. To me this is exactly what is going on in the Middle East.

We often hear the talk(exploitation) about the tribal wars between Arab and Arab, that Arabs are simply war-like crazy animals. That is what is currently being said of Gaza and Hammas. Yet these people are all Semites, every last one of them. Be it tribal war amongst Jew and Arab, Arab and Arab, Arab Jew and Arab, however you shape it, it is a struggle of ideologies among the Semitic peoples. That I believe was the point I was trying to get across earlier. But I leaped before I looked! Hopefully this new explanation will shed more light.

Some people are worried that Lefty is preventing dialogue and we should be ignoring him, but once you get to know him he becomes really useful to the discussion, because he gives us endless opportunities to prove over and over that he is wrong. In this way he provides a very useful energy to the discussion. Seriously, Lefty, don’t go away.

Actually, Robert, I think Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach’s rants are so absurdly irrational that most do not warrant a direct response.  What is of value is your factual presentations, especially your sharing with others at Truthdig extensive links to essential information.

Scienter est Potentia is Latin for “knowledge is power.” Given the importance of the United States to the resolution of the Israel/Palestine conflict, I suspect that a meaningful, just and peaceful resolution will only come about when a majority of the American people come to understand the destructive and racist nature of Zionism and the harm that it has caused not only to Palestinian but to peace-loving Israelis.

In a nation where AIPAC, Alan Dershowitz and Joe Lieberman have sought to limit the scope of discourse, the voices of intellectual giants like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein must be heard above baseless claims of “anti-semitism” from individuals like Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach, who are already way beyond Chutzpah.

Comment #78921 by Ernest Canning on 6/18

Ernest...yes the link has several tidbits of information that were glaring at all of us & our “lefty/ephraim-pesach”.

With every post he exposes his SICK zionist agenda of hatred and the worst form of GLARING racism. Lefty just wants everyone to “shut-up” about his great love for Israel’s racist/apartheid zionism & its ideologies. He wants everyone just to EXIT this & other threads concerning the Palestine-Israel conflict. 

Notice that he keeps striking out & then he attempts to want to go to something else, as he has been doing and just did in his last desperate post. I noticed that my last post really rattled his cage. His outburst of frothing HATE fits exactly what I posted about him in my initial post at the beginning of this thread.

Whats next for lefty...a quote from Pharaoh?

We can ignore his deep rooted hatred, or respond with facts, and we have. But we should also NOT just sit on the sidelines and NOT do something.

Lefty/ephraim’s type of post comments can be heard all over our main stream “AIPAC” controlled media, maybe not in the same ranting words, but its out there beneath that transparent thin surface of the news media’s agendas...of fueling hatred for Arabs, Islamic....etc…

Thanks to the internet, we can help to bring the TRUTH so that many others can have a chance to see the other side that has been concealed for so many, many years.

Michael Shaw: Thanks for your constructive inputs. No need to apologize to me. I respect your point of view. I hope that you will continue to be constructive and to the point as you have been. I know that you conveyed that theme in your comments. The TRUTH matters to you. It matters to me and to many people who care about all humanity.

Steven you are right. Britain created this mess and as we see she hasn’t yet given up her colonial ambitions. I look to the overthrow of Iran by Kermit Roosevelt back in the 50’s. That was for the sake of BP. Look what it’s done! Look at us with Britain in Iraq! Look at the west ignoring the plight of the Palestinians! The mess created a century ago continues to evolve. What it amounts to is more bloodshed and more enemies. The defense industry loves it!

78232 Thanks again Robert. Like you I am not per say a Zionist though I believe in Israel’s right to exist. That might sound like an oxymoron but to anyone who believes Israel should not exist and be dismantled, where on earth would they go and who would take them?

My anti-Zionism comes in the form of military aggression by the right wing government of Israel and their abandoning any commitment to a real peace process with the Palestinians. Another problem I have is with their reactionary psychology to ending any peace process when an incident in terror happens. To this end Israel has been as over reactionary as our own government was concerning 9/11. I perceive much of this as coming from the holocaust. As for Bush and company, there is no excuse, merely opportunity.

There will always be someone on any side who is willing to end the peace process, especially knowing how easy it is. We simply can’t go out invading other countries every time an act of terror happens. Defending yourself is one thing, but scaled aggression and preemptive war is another.

It’s like the war on terror itself. It is battling an ideology and doing that is an impossible task. After 59 years of bloodshed, it has done nothing for Israel.

Terrorism has always been with us. Sadly it will probably always be with us. The key to controlling it is through mutual cooperation. To this end I agree with Dennis Kucinich. We need a department of peace. Every nation needs a department of peace, including Israel and the Palestinians.

As I’ve said before, we need to compensate the Palestinians for their losses and give them a new state with their own autonomy. To start this ball rolling, we need to help Israel give up the occupied territories. We shouldn’t abandon them, merely help them achieve this goal.

I believe once the Palestinians see a ray of hope and a chance at governing their own destiny, levels of violence will dispense and open negotiations leading to real friendship and mutual cooperation will be attainable. This will be of great benefit to Israel and it should ease tensions between them and their Islamic neighbors.

The problem is how do we get this started and who will have the courage to initiate it?

You’re right Steven and I will do so! Thanks!

Robert RV I admit I was knit picking a bit and I apologize. It seems to me there is plenty of knit picking going on in here and my adding to this flame is non productive. What I see in here beyond the several very stimulating and enjoyable conversations, is a whole lot of hate. Not by you but perhaps in a way by everyone of us in here. Hate is what flames the war in the middle East. Hate is what promoted the aparteid wall. Hate is what promoted theft of lands and subjugation and blowing up buses with school children. Hate is what our real enemy is. That and indifference.

It seems we are not only defending our personal ideologies but now we are defending our ethnicity as well. Both sides are guilty of this. Well I no longer wish to be a part of it. If we are ever to solve the problems of the Middle East or even problems at home we need to end the hate and form rational judgments. Pointing fingers at one and other only breeds a continuation of the same old carnage and mistrust.

For my own contribution to this, I apologize to all.

@ Peter RV,

I couldn’t agree more. Did Americans whine about racism when America was criticized during the Vietnam war? Are they sensitive now to harsh verbiage regarding Iraq? Only the warmongers. All this supposed hurt about anti-semitism is simply a foil, it is an attempt to silence the criticism and divert the attention to the purported “hate” of the one exposing the crimes. Is there a real racism in opposing Israel? No more so than opposition to apartheid South Africa or indeed American slavery.

Michael (##78842), there are many ways in which I can respond, all of which would take this discussion even further from the Lieberman topic than it has gone already!  If you are interested in continuing the discussion, I suggest you use the Post a Comment link at the bottom of the Rehearsal Studio post and copy-and-paste your comment from here to there.  You can also create an RSS subscription to Post Comments for automatic notification of new comments (and, of course, you can subscribe to the blog, itself).  I doubt that the discussion here will benefit from considering the issues of genetic epistemology!

Interesting link Robert.  I was intrigued by a couple of other historical tidbits it contained:  That in 1938 the World Zionist Conference refused to participate in a 31 nation conference in France on the resettlement of the victims of Nazism because it feared “resettlement of Jews in other nations would reduce the numbers available for Palestine.” It quotes David Ben Gurion as stating, “If I knew that it were possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second.”

These two quotes sum up the fundamental distinction between the interests of the Jewish people and the ideologically blinded goals of Zionism.

Comment #78854 by “lefty=ephraim pesach” on 6/17

“The Arabs supported the Third Reich & assisted Adolph Hitler it attempting to exterminate all of the Jews.”

=================================================

The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict
Zionism and the Holocaust

“The U.N. decisions to partition Palestine and then to grant admission to the state of Israel were made, on one level, as an emotional response to the horrors of the Holocaust, Under more normal circumstances, the compelling claims to sovereignty of the Arab majority would have prevailed. This reaction of guilt on the part of the Western allies was understandable, but that doesn’t mean the Palestinians should have to pay for crimes committed by others—a classic example of two wrongs not making a right.

The Holocaust is often used as the final argument in favor of Zionism, but is this connection justified? There are several aspects to consider in answering that question honestly. First, we will examine the historical record of what the Zionist movement actually did to help save European Jewry from the Nazis.

Shamir proposes an alliance with the Nazis

“As late as 1941, the Zionist group LEHI, one of whose leaders, Yitzhak Shamir, was later to become a prime minister of Israel, approached the Nazis, using the name of its parent organization, the Irgun(NMO)...[The proposal stated:] ‘The establishment of the historical Jewish state on a national and totalitarian Pd bound by a treaty with the German Reich would be in the interests of strengthening the future German nation of power in the Near East...The NMO in Palestine offers to take an active part in the war on Germany’s side’...The Nazis rejected this proposal for an alliance because, it is reported, they considered LEHI’s military power ‘negligible.’ “ Allan Brownfield in “The Washington Report on Middle Eastern Affairs”, July/August 1998.”

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AS LATE AS 1941, SHAMIR PROPOSES AN ALLIANCE WITH THE ZAZIS...HMMM....???

(Yitzhak Shamir, was later to become a prime minister of Israel)

Well...well...What do you know...a former Israeli prime minister wanted an alliance with the Nazis!

Have you all noticed that Lefty/ephraim-pesach is confused and getting desparate for anything? His lies and evil zionist propaganda are scattered on this & other threads.

Lefty/ephraim’s attempts are NOT working for him & no one is buying his zionist lies’s bait!

- Planting doubt...Not working!
- Character & personal attacks...not working.
- Sidetracking attempts...NOT working.
- Changing the topic...NOT working.
- Lies & zionist propaganda ...NOt working.
- Placing blame/questioning postures...NOT working.
- Amateurish heckling ...NOT working.
- By way of deception...NOT working.
- Trying to be clever & cute...NOT working.
- Lots of BS...NOT working.
- Chameleon tactics, trying to blend in with the crowd...NOT working.

Lefty/pesach...your ‘ADL’ friends are losing their confidense & patience with performance.

YOUR LIES ARE UP TO YOUR EARS...YOUR COLLEGE MATH SHOULD HELP YOU IN FIGURING OUT YOUR STATISTICAL SUCCESS SCORE!

THE PEOPLE ON THIS THREAD & OTHERS CAN SEE RIGHT THROUGH YOUR DECEPTIVE WAYS, AND YOUR DAMN LIES!

Here is the link for the details of above facts:

http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/holocaust.html

“First of all, MILLIONS of Arabs abandoned their homes in the Israeli partition, upon the urging of the surrounding Arab countries to get out, pending the massive Arab attack upon the Israelis.”
--------------------------------------------------
This is a ridiculous fairy tale told to children. Millions of Arabs “abandoned” their homes solely because the Zionists were systematically attacking and occupying their villages, rounding up those deemed resisters and shooting them, and then burning them to the ground, thus carrying out a meticulous plan for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine devised master strategist David Ben-Gurion. This plan had been carefully laid for years and was carried out as soon as the U.N. granted the partition of Palestine and the British Mandate ended. Please, read Pappe and learn some real history.

Peter RV Although I agree with most of your post 78784, I could have better stomached, “Zionist/Neocon” propaganda rather than “Judeo American” hypocrisy. I simply cannot abide in it. The notion is as absurd as Christian-Zionism which frankly is nothing more than a recent insane creation of America’s radical fundamentalist movement. I’d like to add that the so called Christian Zionists want to bring on the destruction of Israel to see the second coming. The problems we see happening in the Middle East right now are coming from the right wing of the Israeli government and the right wing of our own government. I hardly believe that denotes a label like Judeo/American. Not all Americans and not all Jews like what’s going on over there and not all of them are Zionists either.

78731 Steven, I read and enjoyed your article. It appears you are a linguistics expert yourself. If not, surely a devout disciple to it. I appreciate your professional opinion and the interesting knowledge you exemplify.

As for me and coming from the perspective of an interested non expert, what I’ve gathered from the Psychology of Language debate concerning Chomsky and Jean Piaget is perhaps what I believe to be its most important aspect. Evolution. To believe it or not! This is the real question here, at least in layman’s terms.

Do we believe our cognitive, inbred ability to communicate has basic unchanging limitations, or does it have more multidimensional evolving aspects?

Well I believe in evolution! For this reason I tend to lean toward Chomsky. We all climbed out of the same slime pond hundreds of millions of years ago and the complexities of the brain, especially it’s communications center are as complex as life itself and life is an ever changing, ever developing and evolving process. I see no limitations to it. Life will find a way.

There is no doubt that the “gift” of communication separates us from the other animals and in fact there is hardly a doubt our communication is the main tool to our survival as a species. Does it evolve? Will it continue to evolve? There is evidence that suggests it does. To take the other side of the coin one would almost have to believe in an Adam and Eve and throw Darwinism right out the window.

Evolution is what brought us from the pond to the days of homo erectus and we’ve come a long way since then. As surely as we have abandoned the cave to embrace modern culture, science and technology, so too have we improved our language and communications skills. Is this as far as it gets? Perhaps! But I believe it is only the beginning!

Thanks Steven!

I’m sorry Lefty but it is you who needs to investigate.

Ernest I understand that. We are creating the turmoil there. There’s no doubt about it! They want this to happen. It’s obvious!

Lieberman endorsed Chalabi, Gonzales, WMD in Iraq and its subseqent invasion, AIPAC and their provocatours. Now he advocates war on Iran.

His judgement stinks.

If we had term limits he would have to be elected as something else...like Connecticut Controller or Governer...some other office where he can piss off those people who keep sending him to Washington, where he helps Bush to alienate America from the rest of the World and U.S. citizens from other states.

Micahel Shaw, current circumstances entail more than simply the US/Israeli refusal to accept electoral results in Palestine when the Palestinian people rejected the thoroughly corrupt Fatah, replacing it with Hamas.  According to Ali Abunimah of the electronic intifada, who was interviewed on June 15 at Democracy Now! Egypt, Israel and the U.S. have been arming Palestinian death squads, including forces controlled by Gaza warlord, Muhammed Declan.  Abunimah compares these death squads to the Contras and notes that “the architect of this policy is none other than Elliot Abrams...who was convicted for lying to Congress in the Iran-Contra scandal.”

Abunimah contends this is part of a larger US strategy of installing puppet regimes throughout the region to “fight proxy wars...against this phantom enemy of an Islamic caliphate that George Bush and his friends have dreamed up.  An everywhere it is failing.  In Afghanistan the Taliban are resurgent.  [In] Iraq...the US can’t even trust the Iraqi militias and the Iraqi army that it set up...And now we see the US-backed Palestinian Contras being routed in Gaza.”

http://www.democracynow.org/print.pl?sid=07/06/15/142823

Robert… post# 78759 Absolutely true what you’re saying. I think it should be pointed out however that the Stern Gang never had more than 100 members. The fact remains they assassinated several people, including some Jews and even a British diplomat. I believe the total number of assassinations they committed amounted to about 40 in all and in fact 40% of those were Jews. The other 60% of the victims were Palestinians and the Brits.

As for Hammas, the actions of Israel and the US in denying them and “appointing” a new government proves without a doubt there is no true road map to peace. Neither Israel nor the United States wants a viable peace process any more than they want a viable Palestinian state. All it amounts to are more land grabs and more chaos for the Palestinian people. Divide and conquer! Starve them! Crush them out of existence! How many times have we seen this happen there?

If they hadn’t killed Arafat they wouldn’t be worrying about Hammas. That action alone propelled Hammas into power. Israel in fact even supported Hammas in the past to fight the PLO and now here we go again! It won’t stop until an Israelite becomes their prime minister! All the while the bulk of Palestinians suffer.

Robert,

The fact that lefti is not simply ignored at this forum, indicates that many are using it to comfort themselves with lies rather than to seek truth. It reminds me of other supremicist groups that push the same type of hate filled messages:

“ Ahmadinejad.  He is an irrelevant germ.  Although, his Nazi sentiments are widely shared by the vast majority of Arabs and Muslims.”

His constant resort to cusses and insult should be a signal to all that he is simply a hatemongering racist. Sadly, he prevents actual dialog from occuring.

Washington Report, May/June 2006, pages 14-15

Special Report

Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs

By Donald Neff

“A photograph dated 1947 shows a poster issued by British police forces seeking 18 wanted Jewish terrorists from the Irgun Zvai Leumi and Stern Gang. Pictured at top left is Irgun commander and future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (AFP Photo).
   
AS EASY as it is to dismiss clichés as banal and misleading, the troubling problem is that they often cloak an essential truth. Scoffs and derision often greet the cliché that “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Yet freedom fighters is exactly how Israelis view the early Zionists who fought in 1947 for the establishment of Israel—and how Palestinians now consider their fighters resisting Israeli occupation.

The reality is that when faced with a superior military force, such as Britain possessed in 1947 and Israel does today against the Palestinians, terror is the underdog’s only viable weapon. Once a state has been established and legitimized, however, as in the cases of Israel and South Africa, the former “terrorists” tend to gain a veil of legitimacy as well. But legitimacy is now being denied Hamas. Even though Palestinians elected a Hamas-led government in free and fair elections, Israel denies it legitimacy on the grounds that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Sixty years ago, however, at the time of the British Mandate, it was Jews in Palestine who mainly waged terrorism against the Palestinians. As Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion recorded in his personal history of Israel: “From 1946 to 1947 there were scarcely any Arab attacks on the Yishuv [the Jewish community in Palestine].”

The same could not be said for the Zionists. Jewish terrorists waged an intense and bloody campaign against the Palestinians, British, and even some Jews who opposed them leading up to the establishment of Israel.

The two major Jewish terror organizations in pre-independence Palestine were the Irgun Zvai Leumi—National Military Organization, NMO, also known by the Hebrew letters Etzel—founded in 1937, and the Lohamei Herut Israel, Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, Lehi in the Hebrew acronym, also known as the Stern Gang after its leader Avraham Stern, known as Yair, founded in 1940.

The Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the future Israeli prime minister who was a leading proponent of Revisionist Zionism, the militant branch of Zionism pioneered by Vladimir Zeev Jabotinsky, which openly despised the Arabs and sought restoration of what it called Eretz Yisrael, the ancient land of Israel. By this was meant “both sides of the Jordan,” the Irgun slogan meaning all of Palestine and Jordan was the rightful home of the Jews.

The Irgun was the dominant Jewish terrorist organization, both in size and the number and frequency of its attacks. Its most spectacular feat up to this time had been the July 22, 1946 blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, with the killing of 91 people—41 Arabs, 28 British and 17 Jews. Mainstream Zionists despised Begin and his Revisionists, although there was cooperation between the two on military matters. Ben-Gurion, the leader of mainstream Zionism, fought throughout his premiership with Begin.”

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THE ‘TRUTH’ HAS A LASTING & PENETRATING STING TO IT...WHEN IT COMES AT YOU FROM TRUTHFUL PEOPLE, like Ilan Pappe, Norman Finkelstein and others....

“Zionist PROPAGANDA”...has NO place in the zone of TRUTH.

The Zionists (Jewish) were the first to bring “TERRORISM” to Palestine (see details in article link).

Let us ask this “lefty=ephraim pesach” if he is more qualified on the subject of “HISTORY” of Palestine, Zionism & Mid-East? Is Ephraim more qualified than Ilan Pappe (PhD from Oxford)...Norman Finkelstein...PhD...?

http://www.wrmea.org/archives/May-June_2006/0605014.html

Lieberman Repeats Calls For Military Action In Iran
By Stephen Singer , Associated Press Writer

http://www.theday.com/re_print.aspx?re=0f3e0679-4258-4 989-98d4-9e7708e40402

lefti writes:

“Second, what sovereign nation wouldn’t expell terrorists from their country?”

I guess he would have supported the Third Riech.

 
   
“THE 1948 ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINE ILAN PAPPÉ”

“This article, excerpted and adapted from the early chapters of a new book, emphasizes the systematic preparations that laid the ground for the expulsion of more than 750,000 Palestinians from what became Israel in 1948. While sketching the context and diplomatic and political developments of the period, the article highlights in particular a multi-year “Village Files” project (1940–47) involving the systematic compilation of maps and intelligence for each Arab village and the elaboration—under the direction of an inner “caucus” of fewer than a dozen men led by David Ben-Gurion—of a series of military plans culminating in Plan Dalet, according to which the 1948 war was fought. The article ends with a statement of one of the author’s underlying goals in writing the book: to make the case for a paradigm of ethnic cleansing to replace the paradigm of war as the basis for the scholarly research of, and the public debate about, 1948.

ON A COLD WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON, 10 March 1948, a group of eleven men, veteran Zionist leaders together with young military Jewish officers, put the final touches on a plan for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine1. That same evening, military orders were dispatched to units on the ground to prepare for the systematic expulsion of Palestinians from vast areas of the country2. The orders came with a detailed description of the methods to be used to forcibly evict the people: large-scale intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centers; setting fire to homes, properties, and goods; expelling residents; demolishing homes; and, finally, planting mines in the rubble to prevent the expelled inhabitants from returning. Each unit was issued its own list of villages and neighborhoods to target in keeping with the master plan. Code-named Plan D (Dalet in Hebrew), this was the fourth and final version of vaguer plans outlining the fate that was in store for the native population of Palestine3. The previous three plans had articulated only obscurely how the Zionist leadership intended to deal with the presence of so many Palestinians on the land the Jewish national movement wanted for itself. This fourth and last blueprint spelled it out clearly and unambiguously: the Palestinians had to go.

The plan, which covered both the rural and urban areas of Palestine, was the inevitable result both of Zionism’s ideological drive for an exclusively Jewish presence in Palestine and a response to developments on the ground following the British decision in February 1947 to end its Mandate over the country and turn the problem over to the United Nations. Clashes with local Palestinian militias, especially after the UN partition resolution of November 1947, provided the perfect context and pretext for implementing the ideological vision of an ethnically cleansed Palestine.

Once the plan was finalized, it took six months to complete the mission. When it was over, more than half of Palestine’s native population, over 750,000 people, had been uprooted, 531 villages had been destroyed, and 11 urban neighborhoods had been emptied of their inhabitants. The plan decided upon on 10 March 1948, and above all its systematic implementation in the following months, was a clear case of what is now known as an ethnic cleansing operation.”

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Here is the link for the rest of Dr. Ilan Pappe’s, an Israeli Historian and professor, article “THE 1948 ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINE”:

http://71.18.226.238/final/en/journals/printer.php?aid=7175

In response to Michael (#78591) (and anyone else interested in Chomsky the linguist, as opposed to Chomsky the political polemicist) I have just written a “position post” on my view of Chomsky at

http://therehearsalstudio.blogspot.com/2007/06/structu rational-cognition.html

where all are invited to comment!

Comment #78583 by Michael Shaw on 6/16

Michael your comment/post # 78583… An excellent post without a doubt!

The TRUTH is the best route!

Michael (#78583), any attempt to account for the ill will of Arabs towards the presence of Jews in Palestine must account for the role of the British.  Remember that, after Lawrence planted the seeds of a union of the Arab tribes, he advised them to trust the better judgment of the British in matters of governance, because the British owed a debt to the Arabs for their military assistance.  Unfortunately, the British ended up “paying” in the form of the Balfour Declaration, which essentially opened the gates for any Jew to settle in Palestine (now under British control) as a “return to the homeland.” Without the Balfour Declaration the Zionist movement would never have built up the strength that would culminate in the founding of the State of Israel.  From this point of view, it might be fairer to say that the British created the mess that the United States subsequently sustained after the State of Israel had been constituted.

PS Mike mid City I see the calling of a national emergency to implement Marshall law as possible but impractical. They don’t need to go to those lengths to perpetuate the ripoff. Of course with a goof ball like Bush in there, anything is possible

Well Mid City, I have no magic 8 ball. In fact generally and perhaps fatally and going beyond the US political institution, I tend to agree with Robert Fisk, that there is little hope...little hope.

I see two parties with weak candidates and with the mess we’re in, none of them in my view are capable of saving us. We are yet to see the results of the carnage, especially economically. If FDR were running I might not be as skeptical. But he ain’t out there although some might argue Kucinich, and he ain’t got a chance in hell!

78572 I hear you Robert! These are the kinds of things generally suppressed by major media. It’s like the folks who think 9/11 was conducted by a group of crazy Arabs thus all of Islam must be crazy. Hardly was mentioned Israel’s use of US choppers or tanks in killing Palestinians for decades with US emblems still on them, never removed by the Israeli government. Things of this nature hadn’t happened since British merchant ships flew American flags in the first world war!

Hardly is mentioned the vast US military build up surrounding all of Mecca, the holiest of all Muslim shrines or the exploitations of big business(energy corporations,WTO) on that region. Hardly is it taken into account that Bush ended honest peace brokerage when he sided with Sharon after he called for the assassination of Arafat. And most importantly, no one is asking why 9/11 happened in the first place! All we heard and still hear is simply that they hate us. No causality!

Hey Steven, concerning Chomsky, I appreciate your reply and also I believe the reason Chomsky has any opponents is because he is for the most part misunderstood but the bulk of those who comes across his work. Many cannot fathom his brilliance. There are those of course with alternative agendas who fully understand him and even fear him. I’m glad to see you respect him from a political stand point and I am really a big fan of Chalmers Johnson too!

I certainly didn’t wish to contribute to any misunderstanding and for that I apologize. If anything it shows us the complexities of language in real time. At least I found the ability (finally) to understand what you were getting to! Also I look forward to your blog. Thanks Steven!

IE Arabs persecuted, murdered and subjugated Jews.... Sorry Lefty but you are wrong unless you’re talking about ancient Egypt, the Assyrians and the Pharoahs, who were not back then even Arabs. Most of the injustices to Jews that you speak of came from Christian Europe, starting with the European Crusaders who inflicted far more damage on the Jews than the Muslims ever did. In fact in that scenario, Muslims and Jews were both victimized and slaughtered. Only Christians were spared. It was an attempt to ethnically cleanse the holy land of all non Christians.

The trumped up Dreyfus Affair in France and the killing of thousands of Jews by Christian-Czarist Russia is in fact what led to Zionism in the first place. Of course then came the Nazi’s, again backed by Roman Catholicism and other Christian faiths.

Christianity has historically been a greater threat to the Jews than any other group of peoples or institutions. I’m not denying fanatical Islamic fundamentalism or its threats to Israel. But much of those threats were created by the actions of Israel herself along with the good old USA! We empowered the Taliban and in fact financed them. We created Al Queada by sending bin Laden to Afghanistan and arming him! We created Saddam Hussein and we overthrew a freely and democratically elected government in Iran(who are also non Arab by the way). That’s what led to a revolution, thanks to our backing of the Shah(whose father supported the Nazies in WW2) and ultimately established the radical Islamic fundamentalist government we are at odds with today. Even Hezbollah is a product of Israeli aggression. 

For centuries Muslim, Jew and Gentile lived in relative peace as far back as Mohammad. When Mohammad retook Jerusalem he allowed Jews(and Christians) to practice their beliefs unscathed. That trend continued up till 1948 and the creation of the Jewish state. Not until then did widespread hostilities break out between Arab and Jew and arguably, today Jews who reside in other Arab countries are not being rounded up en mass, subjugated or killed. The same cannot be said for Palestinians in the occupied territories.

In 1939 it was the Jews who were herded like cattle into camps and subjugated and the description of the Warsaw Ghetto by Jews who survived the holocaust are strikingly similar to the current descriptions of the Aparteid wall and conditions in the occupied territories. Today, a Palestinian can’t even get a blanket without permission from the Israeli government. The last time something like that happen to Jews was in Nazi occupied Europe.

In closing (and before someone starts yelling I’m anti semitic)I’d like to add I believe in Israel’s right to exist. The holocaust is reason enough to embrace this ideology. However, that said, the Palestinians who lost their land in the process should be compensated and the occupied territories given up. Also the Palestinians need their own autonomy and their own state, freed from Israeli occupation and governance. I believe the whole world should play a role in this effort. It is to their benefit. As for Britain and the United States who created this mess in the first place, they’re respective roles should be constricted to compensation aimed at creating a new Palestine State.  It should be a UN mandate and it is the only real solution to a peaceful Middle East. It will rebuild our relationships with the entire Muslim community and establish ties in friendship rather than ties to war and mistrust.

Lefti,

Are you sure that you are Jewish, or simply a racist?
Maybe you ought to explore some better aspects of Judaism:

Rabbi Teitelbaum On Zionist Heresy

JewsNotZionists.org

“Zionism is the greatest form of spiritual impurity They have polluted the Jewish people with their heresy.” -Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum

The words of the saintly Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, author of the VAYOEL MOSHE ring clearly when we view events in the Middle East:

“...if we place all the immodesty and promiscuity of the generation and the many sins of the world on one side of the scale, and the Zionist state on the other side of the scale by itself, it would outweigh them all. “

“Zionism is the greatest form of spiritual impurity in the entire world.”

“They are polluting the entire world. They have polluted the Jewish people with their heresy, Heaven help us.”

“It is no surprise why G-d’s anger comes down from heaven. It is necessary to repent and escape from them more than from a lion who is chasing a person to kill him.”

“It has been explained that before the coming of the Messiah, this regime will come to an end, as Messiah cannot come any other way, since the Zionist state holds up the redemption of the world.”

“We need G-d’s mercies that divine intervention should bring about the end of the state. May G-d have mercy on us all.”

Rabbi Teitelbaum also wrote:

“It is clear that anyone who believes in G-d has no doubt that they are from the source of the accursed impurity of heresy, Heaven help us.

It is horrible that such a thing arose in our day, and how can we be silent when we see such violations of our faith and the principles of our entire Torah?

Especially since so many of our religious brethren - fail to speak out about the truth! In such circumstances, the entire truth could be forgotten, G-d forbid.”

“Everything our blessed rabbis cried out about earlier in the century about the dangers of Zionism has almost been forgotten! Even my own writings go ignored. THEREFORE, SHOULD THE TRUTH AND FOUNDATIONS OF OUR RELIGION BE FORGOTTEN?

It is impossible to describe to what extent the world has become sunken in such a falsehood which is destroying the entire Torah. Therefore we are obliged to cry out before anyone against the deep impurity which has spread out in our generation.

Let us hope there are increasing numbers who open up their eyes and the teachings of our forefathers should reach their ears to seek truth and faith.

Without this, there is no hope....”

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/nk.html

Comment #78554 by Michael Shaw on 6/16

On the indigenous population of Palestine.....1890’s…

The indigenous Moslems, Christians and a small minority Jews once got along in Moslem-dominated Palestine for centuries, until about 100 or so years ago when zionist Jews started to massively colonize Palestine. Zionist thinker, Ahah Haam, criticized the early zionist settlers he saw in 1890:

“Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of their deeds, and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.”

“In a pamphlet under the heading line of “Truth from Eretz Yisrael” published in 1891, Ahad Ha’Am wrote of how the Jewish settlers at the time treated the indigenous Palestinian people:

“[The Jewish settlers] treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamelessly for no sufficient reason, and even take pride in doing so. The Jews were slaves in the land of their Exile, and suddenly they found themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that ONLY exists in a land like Turkey. This sudden change has produced in their hearts an inclination towards repressive tyranny, as always happens when slave rules.”

Ahad Ha’Am warned: “We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, as a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor understands what is going around it. But this is a GREAT ERROR. The Arab, like all sons of Sham, has sharp and crafty mind...Should time come when life of our people in Palestine imposes to a smaller or greater extent on the natives, they WILL NOT easily step aside.” (One Palestine Complete, p. 104) How accurate Aha Ha’Am’s description was even after more than a 100 years plus of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict! The conduct of most Israelis, especially in the Occupied Territories , is very similar to the way Ahad Ha’Am portrayed early Jewish settlers’ conduct over a century ago.”

Here is the link in reference(s) to the above facts:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist -Quotes/Story642.html

Actually atheo IE ...the first Zionist settlement....what you are referring to is the settlement of Petah Tikva, or the mother of all settlements. It was initially a failed effort founded by pioneers from Jerusalem. It was the first “modern” Jewish agricultural settlement(kibbutz) in what use to be Ottoman Palestine. The land was originally purchased in Jericho which is today one of the largest urban centers in Israel. That purchase however was rejected by the Turkish Sultan who forbade them from living there. They retained the name Petah Tikva as a symbolic gesture and went on to purchase land from the Arab village of Mullabis, a sale the Sultan allowed, no doubt because it was invested with malaria. This of course swept through their settlement, forcing them to move yet again to Yehud. Once there, they were funded by the Baron Edmond de Rothschild to drain the swamps near Mullabis and eventually moved back to the settlement in 1883. It was the birthplace of the Labor Zionist Movement, the left wing of Zionism. They were inspired by the writings of A.D. Gordon who lived in Petah Tikva. It was a socialist movement not to be confused with the political Zionism of Theodor Herzel. They believed in class struggle to attain statehood while Herzel was more motivated to influencing powerful states like Britain to attain this goal. They split in two in the 1930’s to left and right factions and abandoned their socialism entirely after WW2. They are the elitist core of today’s Israel. The Heganah, the largest Zionist military force in it’s day were a part of the Labor Zionist institution. Many of their members eventually came to power in the 1948 government. 

Another interesting tidbit is the Zionist time line showing Zionism or at least the idea of Zionism beginning as early as 1777. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Zionism

The first Zionist colony was established in 1882 in the coastal plain of Palestine, near what is today Tel Aviv.Prior to the advent of Zionism, Christians, Muslims, and Jews had lived in Palestine in relative harmony.

#78490 by Robert,

Thanks for finding that for me.  I heard only part of it while driving the other day.

This was why I was questioning the zion history time lines, let me know if you feel the presented history to be true or not?

I will have to listen to it at a later time, it should fill in some blanks depending on your feelings toward the speakers.

Michael (#78424), you misread me (not a good sign for someone with so much admiration of lingusitics)!  I never said that *I* called Chomsky psycho.  I said that I have heard him called many things (in the course of a professional life that has taken me through many circles, each of which looked at cognition through different lenses).  I am sure you will agree that Chomsky’s detractors number right up there with this admirers.  My own admiration is directed more towards his political writings, particularly his recent participation, along with Chalmers Johnson, in the American Empire Project.  As far as linguistics is concerned, I cannot deny his impact on the way we think about language today, but I prefer some of the alternatives to the path he set out and his disciples now faithfully pursue.  When I decide to pursue this further on my own blog, I’ll let you know!

Re: Comment #78483

Need to make a correction on previous comment #78483.

First sentence: I meant to say “Leefeller” asked a question about the history of zionism & the Palestinian refugee numbers.

Sorry...atheo...Leefeller!

Michael Shaw, Leefeller & Atheo…

Atheo asked a question about the history of Zionism and Palestinian refugees numbers, atheo commented on the Palestinian refugees “Who are the Palestinian refugees?” and Michael Shaw provided the name of Theodor Hertzel as the father of Zionism.

I know that there is a lot of information out there regarding these main & important issues regarding the Palestine-Israel conflict/problem.

I would like to start with an important debate between two outspoken individuals.

You can either watch the full debate video or read the transcript. This debate has a lot of facts, history, events, guidelines and what the International World Court ruled...etc…

Watch video and/or read full transcript, and you judge for your self.

“Former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben Ami Debates Outspoken Professor Norman Finkelstein on Israel, the Palestinians, and the Peace Process.”

Here is the link to the debate of 02/14/2006. Click on Watch 256K Stream:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/14/1518230

Well Mike Mid City we’ve had plenty of fertilizer in the last 6 years. We’re up to our necks in it. Let’s hope there are enough good people with shovels out there who can dig us out of it.

Patrick I’m not calling all of them two bit, though certainly some of them are. (Trent Lott definitely) I’m saying by limiting terms we are not giving them a chance to learn and function as they must and we will be creating more two-bit politicians than ever and giving them lifetime salaries to boot! The problem is not in the system, it is the influence of lobbies via campaign finance upon that system. That in my opinion is what needs fixing, not the senate or congress which acts and exists in the realm of constitutional law. Terms are already specified in the Constitution by the forefathers and that’s good enough for me.

I’d also like to point out it often takes years to formulate plans, laws or policies and exercise them. In this respect, by limiting a good politician who serves their constituency well we would be in effect, cutting our own throats.

Now I don’t like Trent Lott and frankly there is nothing I’d enjoy seeing more than him being thrown out of office on his ear. That said, I am not from Mississippi and it is apparent the folks down there like him. If they didn’t they wouldn’t vote for him.

I reiterate, if the people don’t like the politician than vote him out of office. If there is any provable wrongdoing, let the judiciary decide. It is not the constitution that should be turned on it’s ear, it is those who manipulate it and skirt around it by what amounts to “legalized” bribery that needs correcting.

Though I agree with you senior officials can play the system more than rookies, campaign finance is the real villain, not necessarily some politician looking to pork up his district.

Eliminate the power of the lobby-eliminate the pork and a whole lot of laws that solely represent the mega corporations.

Mudwallow, Bravo! There is no such thing as genetic purity unless you include all of humanity as being one. This is what we should be doing, rather than diversifying our species to suit our own prejudices.

535 elected politicians representing 300 million Americans hardly rates as two bit. 

Many of them are fine men who only wish for the well being of their constituancy and corporations within their districts.

However, over time as with all men and women in power they become intrenched with various lobby’s whose money keeps them there.  Millions are spent for a job which pays little what it cost to get there.

Senators like Trent Lott, Orrin Hatch even Kennedy get the most earmarks in spending bills as they are senior and know how to work the system better than the framers who created the system.  I’m sure their constituants and favorite corporate lobbys who benefit by government pork dollars would reelect them even if they were dead as not to lose their place in line.

Our system needs to be shaken upside down with campaign finance reform, a fair system of debate and yes, term limits for the 535.

Patrick Henry, before we even begin to think about busting up the seniority system in the house and senate, we should consider getting rid of political salaries for life first. The quicker the turnaround in the house and senate, the more permanent salaries and lifetime medical care we end up doling out to two- bit, inexperienced politicians. Also we should consider the will of the people. If they don’t like their senior senator they can vote him out of office.

Frankly I do not abide in term limits. Like any well learned position, experience plays the greatest role. In and out politicians and more salaries for life is what you’re asking for. That and an even dumber legislation than we already have.

Steven I’d like to add that you are right as far as my labeling Chomsky as a psycholinguistic was not exactly the best way to describe him. I should have stated “linguistics expert” instead. Still, and not to knit-pick, the debate you cite with Jean Piaget was about the psychology of language. Perhaps the reason there were no winners in that debate is because both sides stood on much of the same, common ground. As for losers, I see none. Surely everyone should have benefited by the views of these two men. Still my money goes with Chomsky who had plenty of evidence to back up his notions. Perhaps that is prejudicial on my part since I so greatly admire the man.

I would also like to add that when I mentioned Chomsky in the first place it was from a humanistic standpoint concerning the Middle East. I do however appreciate your correcting me in this slight error of entitlement, although I will never be swayed by your assessment of Chomsky as being a psycho. I accept his opinions on the Middle East as structurally sound even if you do not.

But that’s all right. Healthy debate is what true democracy is all about. I appreciate your comments.

Sen Joe Lieberman (I-Israel) poster boy for term limits.

Sworn into the US senate by GHWB in 89’.

As advocated by Mike Gravel (3) 6 year terms as Senator are enough, the GOP’s own contract with America in 94’ proposed (2) 6 year terms.

We need to bust up the seniority system in the house and senate and reinstill democracy there.

Well Steven, that’s your opinion. I happen to not abide in it. From a linguistics standpoint, Noam Chomsky is probably the most brilliant man in the world. He began the “Cognitive Revolution” as far back as the 1950’s which dealt entirely with psychology, anthropology and linguistics. He is also credited in creating the theory of generative grammar and is the head of MIT’s linguistics department. He is the 8th most cited scholar in the world. I don’t think that merits in calling him a psycho.

And Robert thanks for your post! I appreciate your kind words and like you, I believe in the truth no matter how hard it might be to stomach. I would also like to thank you for sharing your experiences with the Middle East, especially concerning it’s human elements. This is something that is often “forgotten” though it never must be.

To me the aparteid wall and the subjugation of the Palestinian people is a crime against humanity. In fact it reminds me a whole lot about what’s been said and written by Jews themselves about the Polish Ghetto in WW2.

No one seems to care that the Israeli government has broken more UN mandates and charters than practically any other country, even Iran! God forbid if anyone points this out because once they do they are labeled as Jew haters, even if the people saying it are Jews themselves.

I pray for a reconciliation between Hebrew and Muslim and a day they can both live in peace as brothers, but it will never happen as long as Israel clings to the occupied territories or as long as the US remains a bogus peace broker.

I have never been to Israel and hope that perhaps one day I may go there. I do have friends who were there and they reflect much the same things you are talking about.

I do hope that others will read your post. It contains many of the truths that some might find to hard to fathom, but the bottom line is it contains the truth!

Well Ernest as we know ru