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Christopher Hitchens: Religion Poisons Everything

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Posted on Jun 6, 2007
Hitchens
Edward McNamara

By Jon Wiener

Editor’s note: Christopher Hitchens died Thursday, Dec. 15. (You can find Truthdig Editor Robert Scheer’s remembrance of his friend here.) Jon Wiener spoke with Hitchens in 2007 about his views on religion and the book that would turn out to be one of the milestones of Hitchens’ career. For more on the subject, you can read Mr. Fish’s remembrance of and interview with the public intellectual here.

***

In his latest book, “God Is Not Great,” Christopher Hitchens makes the case against religion and for “free inquiry and open-mindedness.”  Hitchens, of course, is a contributing editor to Vanity Fair, a visiting professor of liberal studies at the New School, and author of many books.  He spoke recently with Truthdig’s Jon Wiener.

Jon Wiener:  You show in your book how many horrible things men have done because of religion. In Belfast, Beirut, Bombay, Belgrade and Baghdad, men kill other men, and say God told them to do it.  But why blame God for the bad things that men do?

Christopher Hitchens: I don’t blame God.  I blame religion.  I don’t believe there is such a thing as God. Religion makes people do wicked things they wouldn’t ordinarily do. It doesn’t make them behave better—it makes them behave worse.  You couldn’t get people to hack away at the genitals of their newborn children if they didn’t think there was a religious obligation to do so. The licenses for genocide, slavery, racism, are all right there in the holy text.

Wiener: Yes, the Old Testament is full of these horrors.  But it also contains the Ten Commandments, prohibiting killing, stealing, adultery, and lying—isn’t this a good thing?

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Hitchens:  No.  it’s not.  Because these are prefaced by a series of injunctions to fear a permanent, unalterable dictatorship.  The first three commandments say “just realize who’s boss.”  Let’s assume the story of Moses is true, even though archaeologists have utterly discredited it.  Do our Jewish ancestors have to put up with the insult from us at this late stage that, until they got to Sinai, they thought murder and theft and perjury were OK?  Of course not.  There would have been no such people if they thought that.  There has never been a society or civilization that did warrant those things. And you don’t need divine urging to see that they’re wrong yourself.

Wiener: There’s one other commandment, the tenth—thou shalt not covet.

Hitchens: That is a particularly horrible crime of dictatorship, namely the crime of thought.  It says you can’t even think about this.  To say you’re not allowed to steal your neighbor’s possessions—including his wife—that’s one thing.  But to say you’re not allowed to envy your neighbor is absurd.  It’s impossible.  And the spirit of envy can lead to ambition and innovation and initiative.  I would say that’s an immoral commandment.
 
Wiener: Let’s talk about Islam.  You point out that the 9/11 terrorists said Allah wanted them to fly planes into buildings.  But there are something like a billion Muslims in the world today, and only 19 of them flew planes into the World Trade Center.  Why hold all of Islam responsible for the acts of those 19?

Hitchens:  I don’t.  Islam in fact has one advantage over Christianity—it doesn’t have a papacy.  There is no center that can say “we condemn this” or “we support this,” the way the church supported Franco Spain and said prayers in Germany on Hitler’s birthday by order of the Vatican.  But the centers of legislation and authority in the Islamic world, such as Al-Azhar University in Cairo, have a lot of difficulty condemning suicide bombing.  In fact they’ve never got around to doing it.  They can’t seem to condemn even the blowing up of other Muslims—in Iraq, for instance, where they are blowing up each other’s children and each other’s holy places. No words seem to come from either Sunni or Shiite religious authorities there or elsewhere in the world saying “this is wrong.”  That’s because they don’t really think it is.  If it’s done for their cause, they surreptitiously sympathize with it, and you can detect that surreptitious sympathy if you read any of the statements from the Muslim authorities.  That’s a grave crisis for Islam—and for us, too.

Wiener: Are you saying Islam is worse than other religions?  It seems to me your position has to be that all religions are equally bad.

Hitchens: The position I take in the book is, of course, that all religion is equally stupid and an expression of contempt for reason and an exaltation of the idea of faith, of believing things without evidence.  But that doesn’t mean I think a Quaker and a Bin Laden are exactly the same.  They all have individual disadvantages.  I would say that, with Catholicism, the mad insistence on celibacy is peculiarly deforming.  With Islam, the problem is that it claims to be the last and final revelation.  All that’s required now is that everybody realize the truth of this book.  That’s extremely dangerous preaching, in my opinion.

Wiener: Don’t Christian fundamentalists say pretty much the same thing?

Hitchens: Yes they do.  But I think there is a real problem with Islam of intolerance in that way—it forbids itself to have a reformation.  That’s fanatical and actually murderous right now.

Wiener: Is the problem you have been describing religion per se, or is it the monotheistic religions of the West: Judaism, Christianity, Islam?  Are Eastern religions different and better?  Especially Buddhism, with its compassion for all living things; especially Tibetan Buddhism, with its impressive leader, the Dalai Lama.

Hitchens: The Dalai Lama claims to be a hereditary god and a hereditary king.  I don’t think any decent person can assent to that proposition. You should take a look at what Tibet was like when it was run by the lamas.  Buddhism has some of the same problems as Western religion.  Zen was the official ideology of Hirohito’s fascism that was used to conquer and reduce the rest of Asia to subservience.  The current dictatorship in Burma is officially Buddhist.  The Buddhist forces in Sri Lanka are the ones who began the horrific civil war there with their pogroms against the Tamils in the 1950s and 1960s.  Lon Nol’s army in Cambodia was officially Buddhist.

Wiener: Let’s talk about the U.S.  Polls show that 94 per cent of Americans believe in God, and 89 per cent believe in heaven; of those, three-fourths think they will go to heaven, but only 2 per cent think they will go to hell.  This seems laughable, but what’s the harm in people believing they will go to heaven after they die—and see their mothers there?

Hitchens: All you have to do is promise them 72 virgins, and they’ll kill to get there. That’s what’s wrong with it, along with the fact that it’s a solipsistic delusion.  And the spreading of delusion in the end isn’t a good thing, because credulous and deluded people are easy to exploit.  People arise who are aware of that fact. 

If belief in heaven was private, like the tooth fairy, I’d say fine.  But tooth fairy supporters don’t come around to your house and try to convert you.  They don’t try to teach your children stultifying pseudo-science in school.  They don’t try to prevent access to contraception.  The religious won’t leave us alone.  These are not just private delusions, they’re ones they want to inflict on other people. 

Wiener: Of course, you are right that we have Pat Robertson and, until recently, Jerry Falwell, saying horrible things in the name of religion. Both welcomed 9/11 as payback for America’s tolerance of homosexuality and abortion.  But we have also had Martin Luther King and Daniel Berrigan and William Sloane Coffin.  Why not conclude that religion can lead people to do good things as well as bad?

Hitchens: Let me start with a question: Can you name a moral action taken, or a moral statement made, by a believer that could not have been made by an atheist?  I don’t think so.  I’ll take your case at its strongest—that would be Dr. King. Fortunately for us, he wasn’t really a Christian, because if he had followed the preachments in Exodus about the long march to freedom, he would have invoked the right that the Bible gives to take the land of others, to enslave other tribes, to kill their members, to rape their women, and to destroy them down to their uttermost child.  Fortunately for us, he didn’t take that route. 

The people who actually organized the March on Washington, Bayard Rustin and A. Phillip Randolph, were both secularists and socialists.  The whole case for the emancipation of black America had already been made perfectly well by secularists. I don’t particularly object to the tactic of quoting the Bible against the white Christian institutions that maintained at first slavery and then segregation.  But there’s no authority in the Bible for civil rights—none whatever.  There is authority for slavery and segregation.

The widespread view among white liberals that black people in some way prefer to be led by preachers is a condescending one.  It leaves out heroes of the movement like Rustin and Randolph, and has licensed the assumption that people like Jesse Jackson and, much worse, a complete charlatan and thug like Al Sharpton, are somehow OK because they’ve got the word “Reverend” in front of their names.  That’s done enormous damage, not just to black people, but to the country in general.  It’s the Falwell equivalent.

Wiener: What about practical politics for progressives: since almost all Americans believe in God, for progressives to attack, ridicule and dismiss religion as you do is political suicide that will ensure religious Republican domination forever.  Instead, we must argue that God is not on their side, and we must respect the fact that people belong to different communities of belief.

Hitchens: If you want to argue that God is not on their side, you can’t argue “that’s because he’s on my side”—you have to argue there is no such person. Marxism begins by arguing that people have to emancipate their minds. The beginning of that emancipation is outgrowing of religion.  If religion were true, there would be no need for politics; you’d only need to have faith.

Wiener: I know you’ve often been told that everybody has faith in something—for most Americans, it’s Jesus; for you, it’s reason and science.

Hitchens: That’s not faith, by definition.  You can’t have faith in reason.  It’s not a dogma.  It’s a conviction that this is the only way that discovery and progress can be made.

Wiener: The intelligent person’s argument for religion is that religion and rationality don’t compete—they deal with different parts of life.  Religion answers questions that science doesn’t: Why do the innocent suffer? What is the meaning of life?  What happens when we die? 

Hitchens: I wish it was true.  But, in fact, religion doesn’t keep its part of the bargain here.  It incessantly seeks to limit first discoveries and innovation in science and then their application.  Galileo, of course, but more recently discoveries about the possibilities of limiting the size of your family.  Really, they don’t want us to reconsider our place in the universe, because if we face the fact that we live on a tiny speck in an immense universe, it’s going to be difficult to convince people it was all created with that tiny speck in mind.  It’s not possible to believe that nonsense if you have any interest in science.

Wiener: The final killer argument of your critics is that Hitler and Stalin were not religious.  The worst crimes of the 20th century did not have a religious basis.  They came from political ideology.

Hitchens: That’s easy. Hitler never abandoned Christianity and recommends Catholicism quite highly in “Mein Kampf.”  Fascism, as distinct from National Socialism, was in effect a Catholic movement. 

Wiener: What about Stalin?  He wasn’t religious.

Hitchens: Stalin—easier still.  For hundreds of years, millions of Russians had been told the head of state should be a man close to God, the czar, who was head of the Russian Orthodox Church as well as absolute despot.  If you’re Stalin, you shouldn’t be in the dictatorship business if you can’t exploit the pool of servility and docility that’s ready-made for you.  The task of atheists is to raise people above that level of servility and credulity.  No society has gone the way of gulags or concentration camps by following the path of Spinoza and Einstein and Jefferson and Thomas Paine.


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By Hemi*, August 15, 2007 at 3:29 pm Link to this comment

Michael,

Re:

“I was obviously refering to sound morals, not some bullshit JF said.”

Yes, but he gains cred (not with us) because his bullshit is based on unsound morals also contained in the scriptures. He can quote scripture as backing and who can argue? You know what I mean. Why give the likes of him any basis?

Chilean Sea Bass

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By Leefeller, August 15, 2007 at 1:45 pm Link to this comment

Mid Mike City,

You said many different things but this one calls me to question.

You stated:

“Every little biblical passage the is negative is held up to light and every positive passage dismissed out of hand.”

First of all I have no concept of sin, your opinion that the Atheists in this post are focusing on all the little biblical passages that are negative,  I hope does not hold water and is just frustration on your part. You have called attention to the positive and done which is and would quite fine. 

The concept of right from wrong, according to what?  The Bible, Law, you, me or Hemi.  We may not all agree on what is right. Now the bible,  I suppose provides some guidelines for people to work from.  Since the Aztecs ripped out some poor persons heart every day to make the sun, come up, this seems negative to me, especially if you are that person.  If the world was not flat maybe they could have got the message in Aztec land. I do not have extensive knowledge of the Aztecs, so I cannot provide any positive insight into their religion.

Michael seems correct (really tempted to give him a positive negative here, because he loves to do that to me?) at least I agree with his premise,  our western society has evolved around values from the J. Christian religions, but if you search further, they originally may have been plagiarized them from many other societies, and placed some in the bible. 

We seem to be stuck on the the Christian religion as a template for women abuse, and I would hope that someone could enlighten us to other religions too.

Mid Mike City,

My respect for you and your religion is not the same.  However I do respect your feelings about your religion.  In the past,  I have felt that you had the same respect and opinions about the Heathens and others on the thread, I believe it to still be true.

Tuna salad

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By -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment

Re: #95134 by Mike Mid-City on 8/15 at 9:57 am

Re:  Holding the church responsible

I don’t know if they are holding it responsible.  They illuminate the church’s indiscretions to bolster the “religion poisons everything” mantra.  This is fine for the first couple of exchanges, but it’s not very challenging and it really gets old after a while.  While history is important, I feel that an argument of present conditions is more relevant.

Re:  All of these fine folks have been convinced by life that there is no higher being then they themselves are.

To you, this is a stand-alone statement intended to elicit a certain response.  An atheist is going to simply shrug and say, “yeah?… and?” 

As for your skirmish with Hemi:  Although thick skin is required attire, you should still steer clear of certain taboo topics.  Words hurt - Evidenced by my tear-laden pillow on those lonely nights with a print-out of Billy’s comments clutched in my fist.  Take the high road.  I’ll take the low road.  And I’ll get to Doug’s house before ye.

Oatcakes and chutney   - Michael

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By Hemi*, August 15, 2007 at 1:13 pm Link to this comment

Is it a bad beach day on the left coast?

Here we go,

“Every little biblical passage the is negative is held up to light and every positive passage dismissed out of hand.” MMC

The negative IS held up to light and why not? The positive is not dismissed, it is simply shown to exist and have existed before and apart from the Bible.

“Then mention the possibility of hell and they are like a bunch of little school girls.  Oh your mean, you shouldn’t bring someone’s wife into this.  We don’t believe in God but it’s just plain rude and mean.  Bull shit!” MMC

What are “little school girls” like? I didn’t say you were mean Mike. I said you were typically Christian. You said that you are plain rude and mean.

“Well Hemi brought up HIS WIFE and talked about her life in the church and her service to God and how they decided to get out of the church.” - MMC

Oh MOM!!! Hemi pinched me! Hmmm, I shouldn’t bring up my wife? You don’t bring up your wife? I barely scratched the surface of why and “How we decided”. Tell us all “How we decided”! You are carrying on your own conversation.

“If they were practicing, believing R.C.s then they themselves held this position.  But now Hemi has decided that he is the highest form of spirit in the universe the rest of the world is stupid.” - MMC

Held what position? Sorry Mike, despite what you think, this was and is our position. We believe(d) in many roads to God (and now a moral life). We see people in the light of their deeds not their beliefs. We discuss our beliefs (or non) openly. We look for the best in people. We try to help others in need. We keep our minds open to new ideas. Nothing has changed in our position aside from the invisible guy. Now I decided what? I described myself as the highest form of spirit? Where? When? The rest of the world is stupid? Where are you getting this? I don’t think my responses were that cryptic.

“Well girls, (excuses to She) there is a pony and this shit is the result.” MMC

Why apologize for any comment you make Mike? Is She your kind of non-believer?


PB&J

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By -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment

Re:  #95119 by Hemi* on 8/15 at 9:11 am

I was obviously refering to sound morals, not some bullshit JF said.  Picking on JF is like shooting fish in a barrel.  Come on, man (or other non-gender specific reference to the reader).

Blackened Salmon   - Michael

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By Hemi*, August 15, 2007 at 10:11 am Link to this comment

Re: #95081 by -Michael

“Having grown up in a Judea Christian society, I suggest that everyone in America has incorporated Christian morals.”

Agreed.

“I do not believe the homosexual community deserves minority status. One’s misbehavior does not qualify him or her for minority status. Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc. are God-ordained minorities who do indeed deserve minority status.” - Jerry Falwell in USA Today

Promoting homophobia and then blacks, Hispanics and women are “God-ordained” minorities? Where else could this bigot find his ammunition?

Fig Newtons (Strawberry too!)

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By -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 8:25 am Link to this comment

•  Re:  #94989 by Hemi* on 8/14 at 9:30 pm

“This too proves the Bible confusing and worthless as a morality guide.”

This goes back to our ‘cherry-picking’ discussion. 
Having grown up in a Judea Christian society, I suggest that everyone in America has incorporated Christian morals.  Calling it worthless is throwing stones in one’s glass house.

Crab legs   - Michael

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By -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 8:14 am Link to this comment

Re:  #94885 by Mike Mid-City on 8/14 at 12:33 pm
 
“There can be no reprieve for the church today for the sins of the church in the past.”

Why not?  To forgive is divine.
I fully accept Pope John Paul II’s apology for its past misogynistic misdeeds.  He couldn’t come to terms with all of the church’s anti-women transgressions, but… baby steps. 

Miso soup

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By -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 7:59 am Link to this comment

Re:  #94858 by Leefeller on 8/14 at 10:51 am

“Misogyny is specific to the hatred of marriage”

Pardon my ignorance, but…  Huh?

Hummus   - Michael

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By Hemi*, August 15, 2007 at 6:47 am Link to this comment

Mike Mid-City,

“Well how would a wish you to hell bother someone who doesn’t believe in God or Heaven or Hell?

It doesn’t exist for you and it don’t matter right?” - MMC

Your wish does not bother me. Right you are sir.
You are catching on. I think you are actually
reading my responses. I can’t be certain.

“You brought your wife into it.” MMC

I always do. Great, you are reading my responses! She does the same for me. She is truly my “partner” in life. I am very fortunate to have a loving friend who keeps me grounded in a confusing sometimes hate filled world.


Chips and dip

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By Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 10:30 pm Link to this comment

Re: #94854 by -Michael “For every example of misogyny in the Bible, there is a lesson that contradicts this behavior.”

This too proves the Bible confusing and worthless as a morality guide. The same contradictory plots, people and actions exist in soap operas and they are merely entertainment. Let’s quote “All My Children” in every court house. We can be sworn in with one hand on the TV Guide. We can ask Susan Lucci to pose wearing a toga and blindfold while holding a sword and scale and we’re good to go. So help me Judge Judy!

Mini pretzels

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By Leefeller, August 14, 2007 at 9:26 pm Link to this comment

For fun,

“tree fort.  “No Girls Allowed.” Surprised yee old memory is still working, Billy reminded me of when I was about 8 or 9 years old, we used to spend our summers in the Redwoods.  A few friends and I made a fort out of an old burned out redwood stump.  One of the first things we did was make a sign, “No Grills alowd”, needless to say we never had a BBQ.

Blather for Michael and

Fresh picked Strawberry’s

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By Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment

Re: #94960 by Billy the Dik

Thanks for that Billy. But as far as “I don’t see anything wrong with swipes at one’s man or womanhood” is concerned, speak for yourself. If I’m on the receiving end of one more swipe I’ll have an “innie”!

Coctail weenies

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By Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment

Re: #94918 by Mike Mid-City

“Your a trip Hemi.

And your forcing your wife into your trip to hell.

Enjoy.”

Mike, that typical Christian sentiment and response was not unexpected. There’s always that “you’ll go to hell” in the back of our minds. That’s a vile, human sentiment, I’m rather certain you’d agree, and would be very alien to an “all-powerful, all loving, all knowing, all forgiving creator”. (There’s another in that multitude of reasons.) We are both only human despite our differing beliefs. When I was confronted on my Christian beliefs in the past, I too easily lost sight of “judge not”, “turn the other cheek” and “blessed are the peacemakers”. It’s a tough row to hoe.

I think this is one of those times when we both should consider we have not walked in the other man’s moccasins. I wish for you only the best life possible following in the footsteps of Jesus. I responded to you truthfully. Sorry for goading you into an uncharacteristic response if in fact I did. I have an affinity for pissing contests.

By the way, I couldn’t force my wife to go anywhere.

Bread

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By Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 8:01 pm Link to this comment

Re: #94911 by Leefeller

Thank you Leefeller. I also enjoy learning from and about you and everyone here.

I admit that I could have responded to Mike in a more passive and less irritating manner or simply not responded. Perhaps Mike was questioning without want of an answer. The subject matter leads us time and again to poking a finger in each other’s chests. It’s apparently the nature of the beast or should I say beasts? I did however answer truthfully.

Coffee Coolata

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By Leefeller, August 14, 2007 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment

Hemi,

Response to your last trip post. 

Must say, I feel both humbled and flattered to be aboard, riding the Hitchen post with you,  and of course all the rest of our motley crew.  Feel like I am on a space ship destenation unknown, comfortable just the same. 

Thanks all

French pressed java

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By Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

Re: #94855 by Mike Mid-City

“Hemi,

I’m a trip?

You change your mind about being in a church based on a article about a self loathing suicidal clown who claims that Dr. M. L. King Jr. wasn’t a Christian.”

Yes, you’re a trip. Who said that was my reason? My mind was made up many months ago. A few of my numerous reasons have come out here in various discussions. The majority of my reasons you have not heard. That I am now off a corrupt preacher’s mailing list makes for one less source of irritation. I didn’t bother earlier thinking it better “the devil you know”. But on review (thanks to your questioning) it was simply irritating to read about the ongoing nonsense distracting my family, friends and neighbors from the inner workings of a cult. For clarity Mike, despite my distaste for my former place of worship, I think your situation is likely every bit as sincere and beneficial as you describe. You might ask then, why not simply go to another (non-corrupt) Church? That was considered, discussed and a number of those same reasons (you have not heard) answered that in the negative. I hope that clears things up, I’m not particularly fond of or influenced by Hitchens. I agree and disagree on various points.

Not that you asked but simply to show that I have done extensive research in making my decision, I would like to offer you a little more information. My wife is a near constant influence on my thinking and has been a great sounding board and confidant when it comes to theology. If I had to list authors/philosophers/theologians who have had some influence on my beliefs, they would be Hyam Maccoby (a British Jewish scholar), Robert Green Ingersoll (the Civil War veteran and orator), Julia Sweeney (former Catholic, comedienne, cancer survivor and author) and Joseph Campbell (Catholic raised, American mythology professor, writer, and orator). Julia Sweeney was a former cast member on Saturday Night Live. You might be familiar with Campbell from the PBS series: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth. In this very popular series Campbell was interviewed by Bill Moyers. There are likely others but these four come readily to mind.

Now how about you Mike? Why are you wasting your time on me? I don’t mind. I’m just curious as to why with all of the needy, humble, accepting people you run into, that would appreciate your time and attention, you devote even a little of your time to sparring (perhaps nit-picking) with a non-believer? Perhaps this is not a waste of your time and there’s something going on here that I don’t perceive. I can’t imagine that my participating and comments are a problem for you. Do you feel you have to challenge my non-belief? Your latest line of questioning seems more personal than the general discussions we have. Have I insulted you?

Green Tea

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By Leefeller, August 14, 2007 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

Misogyny is specific to the hatred of marriage, which may be a small part of what I was trying to discuss, y include both sexes male and female could hate marrage.

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By -Michael, August 14, 2007 at 11:19 am Link to this comment

Re:  #94707 by Leefeller on 8/13 at 6:52 pm
It would be more honest to call it a mutually perpetuated blather-session.

Re:  “Since we are discussing religion here, I will not and refuse to comment on your reference to other parts of our society.”

I wasn’t aware that our topics were restricted.  Anyway, I didn’t think that my comment was overly tangential.  Misogyny has been going on since the birth of our species.  I simply pointed out that is not particularly fair to blame religion for misogynistic behavior when misogyny was destined to be part of our culture regardless.  Look at male dominant behavior in the animal kingdom.  It’s biological.  Thankfully our developing sense of reason, fairness, and fellowship has gradually reduced this tendency. 
As I’ve said, religion perpetuates misogyny.  It has retarded cultural evolution. 
However, you can also argue that religion is a catalyst for humans treating other humans with respect and dignity.  For every example of misogyny in the Bible, there is a lesson that contradicts this behavior. 

Wheat germ   - Michael

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By -Michael, August 14, 2007 at 10:20 am Link to this comment

#94762 by Billy the Dik on 8/14 at 12:26 am

Very clever, Billy.  What you’ve done was to purposely underestimate the size of the tweezers required to extract my brain.  Through this cunning endeavor, you’ve implied that my brain is smaller than an average brain, and therefore probably less capable of cogent thought. 

As if this weren’t enough embarrassment for me, you then skillfully attached a jibe to the aforementioned tweezer slur which insulted my sense of humor.

Bravo, Billy.  You are one clever cookie.  Once again I bow to your immutable comedic sagacity.

Your humble tyro,


Michael

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By Leefeller, August 14, 2007 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

Question,

Is being a philanthropist only exclusive to religion,  can it include only money to good causes or can it mean help in other ways?

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By Hemi*, August 13, 2007 at 8:43 pm Link to this comment

Hey Leefeller,

“we do have some Christian churches with female ministers and women higher up on the pecking order, stalwarts and exceptions like the Catholic Church and a few others seem to keep hanging onto the dark ages though.”

My wife was a musical, liturgical and eucharistic “minister” in the RC Church. So, cantor, scripture reader and dispenser of the “body and blood”. This is not a position the equivalent of a priest or a minister in other Christian Churches. It did incorporate not only women but also congregants in general into most parts of the Mass. There has been a lack of men entering the priesthood for decades. The laity and deacons now pick up the slack. The Vatican is not on board with the women serving though. Imagine that! During papal visits, the women disappear from the altars near his destinations.

Wine and wafers

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By Leefeller, August 13, 2007 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment

Michael I would like to qualify by stating the history of religion was rampart and most of religion to day is rampart in it’s abuse of women. History of all religion’s , not just Christianity have shown a total disregard to the status of women, other than regrading women as subservient to men.  Rampart as I intended, means, men fortifying their own power and control, while treating women as sub human or not worthy of concern.  You may be correct stating rampart may be inappropriate regarding western societies of today for they have slowly removed the rampant making it more like a fence, Mid Mike City states we do have some Christian churches with female ministers and women higher up on the pecking order, stalwarts and exceptions like the Catholic Church and a few others seem to keep hanging onto the dark ages though. Since I like the word rampart, I must admit this does not mean it was the best choice of words to use in this context.

Since we are discussing religion here, I will not and refuse to comment on your reference to other parts of our society.

Your quantitative feeling of guilt was apparent, your blathering tirade following my question on the word Gentlemanly was quite amusing,  Your accusation of my blather is not founded since you exceeded the blather limits of good taste, you are the blather quota exceeder, quite good at blather as your are. 

Your defensive posture and response was totally unnecessary to my question. We had to endure your crass comment regarding your testes and the fact that you had been with or under someone with a PhD is irrelevant to the simple question I posed. 

Thanks for your interpretation of Latin 101, Billy may find it as amusing as I. 

As you blather I will have some blatherless
hot, homemade chicken soup

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By Hemi*, August 13, 2007 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

Oh and re: #94601 by Mike Mid-City

“And your trip is what Hemi?” - MMC

I don’t have a trip Mike but you are a trip!

Coffee to go

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By Hemi*, August 13, 2007 at 4:18 pm Link to this comment

Re: #94601 by Mike Mid-City

“Hemi, you made the comment that your charitable donations were free of any religious test and open to all.” MMC

I had to answer in that way due to the tone of your original line of questioning.

That was:

“So what have all my atheist friends done this week to make this a better world for the poor non-believing people of the world?

I hear the crap talk about how fucked up everyone is who believes in a God is, I was just wondering what the fuck you all have been doing to make this atheist world a better place for the poor and oppressed.” MMC

You claim that this is an “atheist world”. I don’t accept that view. I contend that the people of this world continue to be mostly brainwashed and theist in nature. I think that atheists are a minority, perhaps growing in number but still a minority. I hoped to infer by my answer not that your Church discriminated but that my deeds did not.

“What I object to are the generalizations made.” MMC

Then Mike, why would you generalize and infer that anything good that non-believers do would only be for the benefit of “the poor non-believing people” in an “atheist world”? I’m surprised that you view the world in that way. How about this: What have you done to make this a better world for everyone?

“For ‘tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petar; and ‘t shall go hard”
- from Hamlet by William Shakespeare

Me thinks someone pissed in thine oatmeal!

Coffee and donuts

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By -Michael, August 13, 2007 at 11:53 am Link to this comment

#93785 by Leefeller on 8/10 at 3:54 pm

Leefeller:

I didn’t say that sexism was a perception; all ‘isms’ indicate some sort of action (Latin 101).  You (and Billy) would do well to take more time to comprehend what people are saying.  It seems that you skim the passage, glean key words, and suppose what I’ve said based on your oft incorrect assumptions.  Somehow, you have turned what I said 180 degrees.

I’ll restate:  where there is a question of offense, the intention of the accused does not absolve him from wrongdoing.  If it is perceived that the act was offensive, the perpetrator is indeed at fault. 

Enough of this foolishness.  Your original point, apparently, was that masculine dominance over women has been rampant in religion.

I’m not sure how I could have understood this by your comment, “ ‘Gentlemanly’ is that not sexism?”  (This is all that you wrote.) 

I’ll concur with your point, although it is rhetorical.  It implies that with out religion, rampant masculine dominance over women would not have manifested in other organizations.  I would argue that religion perpetuates this condition, though. 

Linguini with clam sauce (whole clams, not just the damn necks).  - Michael

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By -Michael, August 13, 2007 at 11:47 am Link to this comment

Re:  #93764 by Billy the Dik on 8/10 at 1:59 pm (Amish school)

Billy:

I’m not sure how to address your comment.  You illustrate how misogyny is rampant in America.  I agree.  Where did I indicate otherwise? 

Secondly, your example struck me as rather odd.  I would have gone with a more obvious one, like sexist lyrics in popular culture.
  I think folks are desensitized to mass murders like these.  It is fairly common for a killer to prey on a specific sex.  It is inferred that the perpetrator has many issues, one of which being gender related.  But to take a deranged murderer, and suggest that his issues parallel society’s is a bit of a stretch (albeit true, to some extent). 

And as far as you’re accusation that I have testes (or an ovary) in my cranial cavity - I going to have to insist that you take this back and issue a pubic apology. 

Peace   - Michael

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By Hemi*, August 13, 2007 at 8:01 am Link to this comment

Re: #94396 by Mike Mid-City

“Hemi. You must have missed my earlier post.  We don’t pass out food based on faith although we do distribute at the church.” MMC

I saw the earlier post Mike. Look, you seem frustrated by our talking points here. That we kick around the theological crap here does not make us inhumane. Just skeptical to say the least. I can understand that you would like some proof that we are not simply haters. No matter what we say, or list for you, you will likely be unsatisfied. I for one don’t have a website with my life on display. I hope you will continue contributing on that basis.

Of course you distribute from the church, every organization needs a home base to work from. Yours, like most, has a thematic decor that imposes itself on those in attendance. So be it. I would not have any problem with money spent on AC. Money well spent if the people working, attending or being ministered to are made comfortable for even a short time. To do that in a centralized place where dozens if not hundreds can benefit, why not? Makes good sense to me. We don’t bitch that a school, restaurant or a movie theater has AC, do we? Maybe we should, that’s a story for another day.

Billy Graham Crackers

PS The mail went out!

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By Rob, August 13, 2007 at 3:48 am Link to this comment

Mike Mid-City,

I detect a littl perceived shot to the heart that my words have caused you?

When you asked what atheists had done to make a difference in the world today, well, I thought you wanted to know. 

I really don’t care if you and your church gave away 1/3 of all the money you took in the name of the lord.  I do not have to go to a web site to see your church.  I have a picture of it in my mind. 

Your good works trumph all non-believers works for sure.  There is no goodness to be garnered on this earth less it be through your god(s).

To assume that your church has to have 2/3 of the booty it takes in for overhead is way out of line?
god may be good, but he is damned well broke.

Remember, to argue with a fool like myself, will only drag you down to my level and beat you with experience.

If discourse can reduce a believer to defensive posture, what would you be like if you were once again in charge of our daily affairs?

We are only on this earth for a short time.  Will we ever get to the part that allows us to perceive reality as it is?  Or will we waste that precious little while with useless efforts to save imaginary souls.

Indeed, thank you Bertrand Russel.

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By Hemi*, August 12, 2007 at 4:33 pm Link to this comment

Dear Mike Mid-City,

Regarding your question in post #94240:

“Hemi, why do you still belong to a church?”

Mike, your question has spurred me to action! The letter to remove us from the rolls has been written and will be mailed on my way to work Monday. There’s your answer Mike, I don’t anymore. Don’t you just love a long story made short? You are apparently doing God’s work. Thanks for the inspiration!

As far as

“So what have all my atheist friends done this week to make this a better world for the poor non-believing people of the world?” - MMC

Sorry Mike but the charity I serve and contribute money to (and have for years) does not discriminate on the basis of faith or non-faith. I just can’t answer in terms of pounds of fruit or loaves of bread. Thank you brother for your continued concern for “the poor non-believing people of the world”.

Bread and jam

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By Rob, August 12, 2007 at 3:50 pm Link to this comment

Thanks for asking Mike Mid City,

While your church was providing 80,000 lbs of food this year, it was using 80,000 dollars to air condition that medieval monument to insanity called a church.  churches do some good sometimes.  Goodness, and christians do some good works.  My disdain for religion is not that some religious people do good, but left unchecked, they tend to want everyone not like them to go to hell or ‘believe’ in imaginary sentiments.

Your question as to my good works does challenge me and I have asked myself that question all my life. To say I have worked in soup kitchens, or coached youth baseball, or helped with cub scouts, or boys and girls clubs would seem a little embarrassing to me.  But I have done those minimal things.  I have served on the Save Darfur committee to try and stop the carnage in the Sudan.  I have tried to reinforce the feeling of humanity in my two sons who are now grown and lead enlightened lives as a musician and a certified public accountant.  By always loving their mother, I hope I have shown through actions how to treat the opposite sex. 

I am currently building geodesic domes for people who cannot afford conventional housing.  I hope to go to New Orleans in the next couple of weeks to offer a way to put some of those FEMA trailer victims in geodesic domes.

What I have asked myself, Is how can a man, of ordinary intelligence, very little money, and minimal education, effect this place we live in?
I have tried to make a difference.  That much is success.  I struggle to do some more of the things you so rightly pointed out.  I’m not through trying because I am still alive.  By the way keep up your good deeds, not because an imaginary person told you to do it, but because, like me, you are human.  love, rob

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By Leefeller, August 12, 2007 at 9:49 am Link to this comment

Heathen folks, Fence posters and believer (s)

Off topic or morning rant

When I go to other posts on TruthDig, I find a tattered feeling of emptiness.  My off the cuff opinions and comments on those posts, which are usually political, are very seldom commented on, not sure possibly I may not make sense or it could be I have a reputation hanging around the bad crowd, over here on the Hitchens post.  I must admit one time I called Chompers on his whining but I did not think it a big deal.  What I am saying is the other posts provide little pleasure or fun compared to this one.  Yes this is a special thread.

cyrena came over one time to check on off posting from a recommendation? She or he (I believe to be female)  may have had a problem with off postings at the time, or she said something to the effect.  It seemed like, Chomper’s mom was coming over to check on who he was playing with.  When I was browsing the other posts,  I found her an Chompers talking about people bashing others on the threads, they were unhappy with Sheer from Turthdig for some reason. 

You know I picture Chompers,  not yet fifteen, (as Billy suggested) a home schooled boy wonder and cyrena really is his mom!

Politics to me are as interesting as a pimple of Chompers arse, but I believe our rights, the people’s rights are being taken away. So I trudge on trying to make sense of nonsense.  But I figure my opinions, conjecture or unworthy comments as a Unyun given duty that must be done,  for the soft warm comfort of apathy is so easy to fall into.

Oh no we are out of
coffee

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By Hemi*, August 12, 2007 at 9:48 am Link to this comment

Billy the Dik,

Thanks for the mention of Howard Zinn’s: “A People’s History of the United States”. My son is off to college in two weeks and we’ve been discussing American history in general. In particular how we have been fed these sterilized concepts of history such as “Lincoln freed the slaves”, “Columbus discovered the New World”, “we had no warning that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor”, etc.

My son is very sharp and has a better bullshit defense system than I had at his age. I’m sure he will be able to navigate the various political leanings he will encounter. I think Zinn’s book might be a good thing for him to have along.

Pop Tarts

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By Rob, August 12, 2007 at 6:40 am Link to this comment

Hemi and Billy the dik,

I must say that with all the bull you guys talk, I am blown away with how articulate and thoughtful you guys can be!

In every life, there is hope.  When that is gone, there is death.  I have hope as long as we can start weaning our children off this nihilistic religious pacifier and teach enlightenment.  Dare I ask so much?  Dare I dream of a time when self abasement takes a back seat to reason?  Hell yes I can!

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By Hemi*, August 11, 2007 at 9:37 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Leefeller, I get just the right take on a few of the threads. Regarding our Unbelievable thread though, keep in mind that I am a recovering Catholic so shoveling the crap is simply part of the natural process of uncovering myself. Sharing the wealth so to speak.

Rob that “slave mentality” concept hits a lot of nails on the head. Not only women fall prey to it. Our group has repeatedly questioned why highly educated, religious folks don’t see the wizard behind the curtain? I’ve had a little of this mentality in my own life and it is a reluctance to fight the establishment. We are reluctant to leave our comfort zones. It’s much easier to go with the flow than question everything around you and risk being ostracized. Peer pressure, brain washing, slave mentality and go with the flow.

The other part of this is that humans have this will to survive and so we make the best of what we are confronted with. Humans regularly carve out acceptable physical and intellectual niches in the presence of madness. We see children in news reports do this in war zones. It’s much easier to do in a peacetime suburb with all your support systems intact. Freethinking has yet to become main stream. It’s coming though!

Coke Slurpee = BRRRAINFREEZE!!!

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By Rob, August 11, 2007 at 7:45 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller,

I might suggest one of the reason’s that women would be even remotely interested in religion.  It is a phenomenon I know called “slave mentality.”  When someone is taken at youth, and is taught to fear an imaginary god(s) and is indoctrinated into a belief system it tends to seem the thing to do.  When everyone you respect, as in your mother or father, tells you that you are second class and that your lot in life is to cower at a man’s feet, you acquire a slave mentality.  Some slaves after the civil war stayed with their masters because it was all they knew. 

You know a group that could not be made to have a slave mentality?  Why it was those pesky Indians.  When christians first arrived in this country, they tryed to make the Indians their slaves.  When you break an Indians spirit, they just die, or become drunks, or just die…Now we’re sorry we tried that with them, and there is considerable effort to send them FEMA trailers as a constellation prize.  Phamaldahede doesn’t seem to hurt their children as it does other folks.  god does work in marvelous ways, n’est pas?

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By Leefeller, August 11, 2007 at 7:01 pm Link to this comment

Hemi and rest of you heathens

Hemi, Read one of your posts on an other thread, and forgot to mention to you that it was well done, did you get any replies? Want to thank you and Rob for the enlightenment here as well, kudos guys.  How come Atheists are the ones to shovel the Christens their own horse pucka.

As I read along in Hitchens book I find his references somewhat enlightening. He gives a quick reference to Paul, you filled in the gaps.  What of other religions?  Hindu’s in India, I suspect women cannot expect much more than what is offered by the Moslems.  Doug you were on the Hindu reincarnation wagon, what of women?

In all fairness to Hitchens, I will quote his well written line instead of attempting to cherry pick and feed it to you.  This quote is a handy synopses and states my feelings quite well and believe strikes a chord with our discussion on this thread.  Quite windy buy I feel well done. 

“Violent, Irrational, Intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.” 

This quote is prepping us for his followup on the The .Procalmation of the Apocalypse and the day of Judgment but sums up very nicely Religion as it has been and is today.

Even our western society still has the regressive qualities of religion dragging down women to a lower level. Progressive changes will always be slow, simply said; religion has no need of progressiveness, the flock would find rational thought and flee. 

It seems to me women have much more to loose under the stirrups of religion then men, but why is it, then women seem to hold on to believe more than men? This is only my opinion and I   may be off base on my observation. Some women have no choice, but when women have a choice are the numbers equal? 

Hitchens, did a nice job of instilling this topic in me mind and I appreciate his knowledge and ability to express himself well enough to call religion on it’s bogus bull.  Be interesting to see if the Catholic Church may have attempted to buy up all the copies of his book to keep them out off the streets, if so maybe we are alone?

Patty melt

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By Hemi*, August 11, 2007 at 10:55 am Link to this comment

Folks,

That we can interpret various Biblical passages in a manner more palatable to our “enlightened” sensitivities does not validate what many consider the essence of “truth” that appears in the testaments at various times. That there is what we might consider a universal truism in any historical account is merely the result of probability and chance. These same scraps, that are almost universally accepted, exist in the documents of many disparate cultures and also in documents and media we almost universally consider contemptuous and evil.

That a prophet, politician, tyrant, television network or newspaper can be correct on minutia does not validate the entire message. What are the chances of one account compiled of snippets from multiple disparate authors, by a 3rd century despot have of being the “Book of Universal Truth and Love”? Yes, we’ve all made our stances known.

Tapioca

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By Hemi*, August 11, 2007 at 10:21 am Link to this comment

Ladies and gentlemen,

Just a little more.

“It appears that America’s anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men’s movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening.” – Jerry Falwell on women’s rights

“There is a passage in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) where Jesus is reported as having insulted a woman. He referred to her as a dog, a sub-human. However, his treatment of the woman was apparently based on racist feelings, not on sexist beliefs. In Matthew 15:22-28 she was described as a Canaanite; Mark 7:25-30 identified her as Greek/Syrophenician. She had pleaded with Jesus to cure her daughter who was possessed by a demon. He first ignored her, but then explained that he was sent only to bring the Gospel to the Jews, not to the Gentiles such as she. Jesus cruelly replied to the desperate mother that it was not right for him “to take the children’s bread and to cast it to dogs.” i.e. it is not appropriate to take the Gospel, which was intended only for the Jews, and offer it to Gentiles as well—here described as sub-humans, as dogs. (Observant Jews in the 1st century CE often referred to Gentiles contemptuously as “dogs.”) She quipped back to Jesus that even the “dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Jesus relented and, from a distance, cured the daughter of demonic possession because of the mother’s faith.” - This selection taken from http://www.religioustolerance.org

Of course Jesus didn’t condemn the practice. He didn’t exist and this passage was written to sooth possible Jewish converts that the Gentiles weren’t such bad sorts as “dogs” go. In a back handed manner it also opened Christianity to Gentile converts who were accustomed to being considered “dogs” by the Jews. Jews had been persecuted at various times and treated other tribes subordinate to them in kind. This story was written for recruitment.

Notice it was not a man that Jesus called a “dog”. Thus male Gentiles, who were as sexist as Jews, would not be so insulted. Notice also he cured the girl by walking away with no mention of how that cure was manifest. The “miraculous” avoidance of tangible proof. An off hand, throwaway miracle. Ta da! The change effected in the daughter should be of particular importance to a story that is not simply a recruitment advertisement, don’t you think? Once again a woman, not so important. The Gospelers (Paulists) were not recruiting women.

Loaves and Fishies

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By Hemi*, August 11, 2007 at 10:00 am Link to this comment

Gentlemen and Ladies,

Like MMC, I too had misgivings regarding Paul and the “Paulist” traditions of the Church. I took it one step further in that I find Jesus does not exist as a historical figure prior to Paul. So, my contention is that Jesus is a compilation of various real and mythical figures rolled into one story by the very devious and evil Saul of Tarsus. Saul/Paul wanted to get even with the Jewish hierarchy that hired him to do their dirty work and then would not allow him to ascend to an equal status with the high priests. This was a hit man who suffered extreme guilt for his actions and then turned it around on the corrupt mob bosses that hired him. Yadda, yadda, yadda, you’ve heard my rant before.

The sexist traditions of the early Christian Church were reflections of the Jewish male dominated tradition. Paul tied his new religion, via prophetic manipulation, to historical Judaism to attract Jewish converts but it never worked, as we now know. That the Church was similar to historical Judaism in treatment of women is hardly surprising. Paul had a “problem” with women so why change what had come before? He was trying to attract men and the women were simply possessions that would follow. See also the “Twelve Apostles”, only men. Very few men of that era, including the mythical Jesus, were willing to consider women as equals. That some Christian sects today are moving away from that is only a result of societal evolution and not revelation. The body of Biblical quotes and later interpretations does not promote equality between the sexes.

“Woman is the gate of the devil, the road to iniquity, the sting of the scorpion, in a word, a dangerous species.” - St Jerome circa 400

(Apparently St Jerome considered women a separate species, like dogs, from men. Very interesting.)

“Woman is the daughter of falsehood, a sentinel of hell, the enemy of peace.” - St John Damascene circa 700

(By inference, Saint John had a low opinion of the “Virgin Mary”. Why is that? Could it be that the Church had not yet derived she was “blessed” by God? Their thinking had not “evolved” to that point.)

“Christ called as his Apostles only men. He did this in a totally free and sovereign way.” - Pope John Paul II

(Sovereign as in ruler as in my own papal infallibility. So, if I let women take on a more significant role in the Church, that would start unraveling the fabric of this myth I am charged with carrying into the future.)

“Please, my dear brothers, let your wives and sisters go to the voter registration process. Later, you can control who she votes for, but please, let her go.” - Hamid Karzai

(Obviously an attitude sprung from the Judaic roots of his faith.)

The above quotes gathered by Cliff Walker http://www.positiveatheism.org/
The comments are mine.

To be continued…

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By Hemi*, August 10, 2007 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

Fellers,

Just glad to have kept my wedding tackle out of that one!

Twig and berries

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By Leefeller, August 10, 2007 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment

Michael,

Personally I was not offended by the masculine comment.  I only brought it to your attention, and posed it as a question.  Your reference to your testicles was not even offensive to me. If you inadvertently feel they are much larger than they really are, this could be construed as some sort of ego problem. 

Sexism is not perception, if you believe perception is the only problem,  then you are a sexist. You
could use perception as an argument for any sexist comment, probably for any insult to anyone.  For example if Billy happened to call you a “gonad brain,
which he did,  you might find that insulting or not, but the point being, from your argument Billy can casually pass it off as your perception no matter how you really feel about it. 

What I was trying to point out masculine dominance over women has been rampant in religion,(actually in many other parts of our culture) (Billy covers this in his post)  written and designed by sexist men who seemed to have a very high disregard of women. 

Hitchens covers this topic in his book, this is why I called attention to it.

My attempt to keep the post somewhat on topic, seems to have been sidelined, I take some of the blame.

Need to pick lots of
Blackberries with icecream

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By -Michael, August 10, 2007 at 2:54 pm Link to this comment

Re:  “Here, you are addressing a general audience not just the good old boys in a smoke filled room…”

Regardless of one’s environment, racism, sexism, etc. is intolerable.  If you surreptitiously survey your surroundings before spewing anti-locution or a sexist remark, it doesn’t absolve the speaker from misconduct.

Deep Fried Pierogies   - Michael

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By -Michael, August 10, 2007 at 2:34 pm Link to this comment

Re:  #93703 by Leefeller on 8/10 at 8:39 am


Perception has EVERYTHING to do with it.  My intent, of course, was not to offend; this is of little consequence.  The feelings that my comments elicit is of the utmost concern.  Again, if I offended anyone I sincerely apologize.  I have the distinct impression, however, that no one got their panties (or to be gender neutral, I’ll say undergarments) wadded up over my benign use of “gentlemanly”. 

My reference to genitalia was an obvious prod at your nitpicking attempts at political correctness taken to the extreme.  Leave that shit for the office.

I pride myself for being keenly aware of my prejudice.  There are times that we unfairly assume something about another person based on limited information – this is human nature.  The important part is to recognize this as a perception which is not to be acted on or taken as reality. 

I’ve been a leader for over twenty years; equality is my watchword.  I’ve been trained by PhD’s in the field of Equal Opportunity.  My intentionally crass remark pales in comparison to your off-target blather. 

…or were you just joshing me?

Lentil Soup   - Michael

(I’m really craving chowder now…  Damn you, Mike)

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By Leefeller, August 10, 2007 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

Here, you are addressing a general audience not just the good old boys in a smoke filled room, gentlemanly is masculine or of men, that is to say sexist.  Perception has little to do with it.

Your timing is important,  since we were talking about abuses of women by religions.  Reference to your testes is   blantent and is case in point,  showing history to be true.  Sexism has always been real, your comments expressed a real or hidden sexism in your-self..

Barn Burger and
Expresso

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By -Michael, August 10, 2007 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

Re:  #93541 by Leefeller on 8/09 at 4:01 pm
    “‘Gentlemanly’ is that not sexism?”

Well, that depends on the perception of the listener.  Were you (or anyone else) offended?  If so, then ‘yes’; and I apologize.  If no, then ‘no’; and climb off my balls.

Shit.  That may be construed as sexual harassment.  I will pre-apologize for graphically referencing my testicles. 

Rocky Mountain Oysters   - Michael

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By Leefeller, August 9, 2007 at 7:43 pm Link to this comment

Thanks Billy, I had hoped for more than Chompers Wonder Woman.

Kraut Dags

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By Leefeller, August 9, 2007 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment

Chompers

Remember the book, “How to make Friends and influence People”.  You may want to read it again and let it sink in, I know it is hard but just keep trying, preferably before you reincarnate into the rest of the horse. 

You inane comment to Rob.

“Ha ha, poor Rob - oh, well, at least you have made it to 33 posts here so far. Thanks for your timely interjection.”

Between you and Godsend, manners abound. 

Horse meat burgers

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By Leefeller, August 9, 2007 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

“Gentlemanly”  is that not sexism?

peas

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By -Michael, August 9, 2007 at 3:48 pm Link to this comment

I think what irks my fellow bloggers is that you present yourself as the guy who has it all figured out.  You’ve denied this previously, I’m just reiterating my perception.  Your fellow believer, Mike MC, is accepted in this forum because he has a take-it-or-leave-it attitude that isn’t accusatory, aloof, or self-righteous.  This may be confusing because Billy holds all three of these characteristics from time to time.  He gets away with it because of the ideology of the group majority, and his rapier wit.  I too stood in the crosshairs, until I learned the rules and (more importantly) players of the game.

It is frustrating when you take time to explicate an idea only to have it summarily dismissed or mocked.  This is certainly a group dynamic unlike anyone I’ve experienced; I’m use to a more gentlemanly approach to discourse.  But with the right approach, it can be worth the ride…

‘possum dishes the whole family can enjoy     - Michael

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By Leefeller, August 9, 2007 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

Mid Mike City,

If Hitchens really is Billy or the other way around,  than I am flatered.  Seems to me Hitchens would be slightly more windy than Billy plus, he writes with an English accent, Hitchens that is. 

Rob, actually the Moslems may not be as intolerant toward women as the Christians, guess it is a toss up.  Pretty grim stuff from the Christian folks, just like the “Fox Not the News,”  telling us what they want, leaving out the real skinny.

Cobb salad.

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By Leefeller, August 9, 2007 at 11:14 am Link to this comment

Rob, Sounds like nice Christian folk lore Hitchens talks about some of that, but mentions the Hindu religion and really takes off on the Moslems. 

A little side note, the Vikings were one of he first to provde womens rights women could own and inhearit propertiy. Are there any other progressive socities in history.  My history needs some work, but seems women must have had rights in other socities of history?  I know;  Wonder Woman, Chompers.

Java on the roof

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By Rob, August 9, 2007 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Leefeller,

Are you sure you want to hear what the creator had in mind for women.  OK.  Here goes…

“And the daugher of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father:  she shall be burnt with fire.”  Leviticus 21:9

“When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to delver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him b the secrets:  then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eyes shall not pity her.”  Deuteronomy 25: 11-12

“Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child:  then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.”  Leviticus 12:2
“But if she bear maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days.”  Leviticus 12:5

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”  I Corinthians 11:3

“For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.  Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.”  I Corinthians 11:8-9

“Behold, I will cas her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.”  Revelation 2:22-23
( I warned you Leefeller that this might get ugly!
By the way, this is jesus saying he would kill innocent children for the adultery of others.  Nice )

“Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.  Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.  He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.”  (Exodus 22: 18-20

“Let the women learn in silence with all subjection.  But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.  For Adam was first formed, then Eve.  And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”  I Timothy 2:11-14

I could go on but this is just too much for a love of life to take.If christians really had read the bible, it is hard to understand how any sane woman could profess to believe. No civilized mind could but look in horror at religion.  Thank you Jim Baker.

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By Leefeller, August 9, 2007 at 10:34 am Link to this comment

Sorry guys, had to get back and see what has been happening.  Enjoying this better than faafle fasdoole.  Must admit Chomps crawled out after 1000 posts and tried to come on as the new comedian.  Need to get back up stairs.

Billy quite funny actually ha-larry- ass. “Reminds me of one of those losers whose neck veins buldge out when he turns off the faucet.  What a door knob!” Love it!

Sophomoric,  great just the same! Being the butt of the thread, Chompers it would be wise to keep you kilts down.

Michael, not to leave you out, read the menu while sitting on your fence post,  than select your order, or just keep the fence post up your arse!
(Not as good as Billy, but do you feel better?) 

Reincarnated animal crackers for Chomps

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By Rob, August 9, 2007 at 10:09 am Link to this comment

Thank you Leefeller for caring about me.  I think we might qualify as friends.  I bet if we met we could have an intelligent conversation about life and the pursuit thereof.

Now…. Doug,
You have obviously been backed into an indefensible corner and rather than intellectually challenge me, you have chosen the usual religious route. 
That is one of ‘wishing my limbs severed from my body’ and the ‘rack’ for not agreeing with what it is your mind has led you to. 

You are living proof of why enlightened non-believers must never let our intellectual minds forget the horrors that have been committed in the name of religion.  My take on you is one of believe in my god or go to hell.  Thanks for reinforcing the feelings I have about religious zealots.  I will strive to never allow intellectually challenged persons such as yourself enter in polite society without a serious discussion of your motives.  Go to your church and bow your head and grovel before your imaginary friend and make plans to return to the good old days when I would have been burnt at the stake.  And as for myself, I will keep alive the feeling that this world can be a fit place to live and die.  It doesn’t have to be as absurd as you make it.

I have never said but one small prayer, and it was for god to make all my detractors seem like idiots.  It was granted.  Thank you Voltaire.

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By -Michael, August 9, 2007 at 9:56 am Link to this comment

It seems that poor Doug has taken my place on the whipping pole…  I’m feeling a bit left out.  Billy, can you berate me, just for old times sake?

The safe-word is…

Banana   -Michael

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 9, 2007 at 9:34 am Link to this comment

#93393 by Rob on 8/09 at 6:21 am: “...That’s the intellectual repartee I love.  I find that atheists are always ‘left out.’  .......... I feel quite happy with my life so far.  I have found mostly joy in what has happened to me….........I can’t see jesus for what you have made up about him. ....... I feel quite cheerful today…”

So sorry to bring you this news, then, Rob. You will endure a thousand racks and all your limbs severed from your body rather than admit your intellectual dishonesty to yourself.

You are indeed the intellectual midget you are instead of the ‘big guy’ you could be. You don’t need to talk to me but your own “Inner Self”.


You can’t tolerate your own defective personality because you can’t see your Self for what you have made up about It. All happiness will be lost to you.

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By Leefeller, August 9, 2007 at 9:32 am Link to this comment

Before I get back up on my roof and hammer out some morse code for Billy, Hitichen’s book provides some food for thought.

Hitchen attacks all the religions for their nasty treatment of women from the bible to Buda, women treated as only servernts,  or second to men or lower.  I am not bible savvy, (Rob you may have some thoughts)  but of course the Vegan Mary (it has come to my attention she did not eat meat)  comes to mind.  As an artist I am aware of Sara and the elders or the dance of Solome. Usually in the art world it would entail a naked or scantlyy clad female.  I think it would be fun to paint Sara and eleders with Sara wearing a berka. Now that I think of it the art world seems to have treated women somewhat the same way?

Hitchens attacked all religions for their sexism, since I do not intend to do a book report, any of you have comments?  Gotta climb the latter now.

H2O and more H2O, do not know how to get the 2 up not unlike Chompers.

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By Leefeller, August 9, 2007 at 9:02 am Link to this comment

Rob,

Good to see you back and you are right we should return real Hitchen Post, but first this message.

Chompers the pretentious one, is on a posting numbers kick.  Since my unbelief in the Great Unyun.  Chompers the unenlightend one seems to be passing the wind like clock work,  providing us ramblings and dissertations of his opinions.  He states Science has Proven the existence of god, he preaches that we must obtain the 7 sheets to the wind and now he’s whistleing the reincarnation of Hobbits.

His jib and comment about us being a group of boozers places him on the edge of sounding sane or insane.  Chompers proveds us with his undefinition of greater reality.  He sounds like Chiech and Chong with an anger problem.

His lack of reason and thought are only exceeded by a pervasive windiness.  At first when Chompers started preaching the Chompers fantasy world, I tried to listen with manners, but his self righteous attitude overloaded the bounds of politeness.  The Great Unyun has forspoke. 

As She would say it is really hard to know where a nose picker like Chompers comes from.  Must say it has been fun.  He could become the Hitchen’ post juvenile delinquent, he sounds like a fifteen year old who really belives he knows it all.  Maybe if he hangs around long enough, he could catch on to the phenomena of humor.

Chomps, thanks for the tread adrenaline.
This might help
Exlax

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By Rob, August 9, 2007 at 7:21 am Link to this comment

Ah, Doug

That’s the intellectual repartee I love.  I find that atheists are always ‘left out.’  I don’t feel left out or conned by evil christians. 

And although my species does disappoint me on occasion, I feel quite happy with my life so far.  I have found mostly joy in what has happened to me.  Not so much joy in what is happening to this planet, or the children, piled like chord-wood in Darfur.
Or the muslims who cut off hands and arms of liars.  I feel not so good about christians who ‘believe’ condoms are bad news for preventing the spread of aids.  But mostly, I find no comfort in people who tell me they know the creator.  And all christians know what a son of a bitch he can be.  So, they invented this intellectual midget to talk to instead of the ‘big guy.’  And then they claim that I couldn’t be happy not believing in him.  I must have a defective personality because I can’t see jesus for what you have made up about him. 

I would endure a thousand racks and all my limbs severed from my body rather than commit this intellectual dishonesty to myself.

And besides, I feel quite cheerful today for some reason.  god(s) only know why.  Thank you, Mark Twain.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 9, 2007 at 6:16 am Link to this comment

#93364 by Rob on 8/09 at 4:24 am: “...Most christians run from the bible like it was a foreign book of jokes.  They claim they have a jesus that loves them and all the rest of us infidels.  Why you can’t read the bible and find the jesus they believe in?  ........... Originally they heard of this poor hero called jesus, who dies in the middle of the book (why the bible can’t be considered literature).  Since most of the dribble he is made to say belongs in a goat herder on mushrooms mouth, you wonder why you would think it relevant to life….”

Ha ha, poor Rob - oh, well, at least you have made it to 33 posts here so far. Thanks for your timely interjection.

No, Jesus didn’t “die in the middle of the book” as it were. The part about him is all near the end anyway. That’s what I can’t stand about the so-called Christian bible - its full of historical crap about Jews. Jesus tried to teach another way. People nowadays still won’t have it but he was clearly against Judaism and the Jewish establishment hated him for showing them up as puppets of Rome.

Any thinking person would trace what Jesus taught back to its roots - in Asia! He most probably toured around as far as Tibet if not China in his youth. China and India were, after all, the most advanced civilizations of the period by far. Rome was nothing much more than a military dictatorship which liked to splash its wealth around.

Buddha had already spread his teachings hundreds of years earlier in South Asia and there were regular trade links from the M.East to India and China even then. If they hadn’t already heard of Buddha’s philosophy in Jerusalem, they did once Jesus arrived. The “do to others as you would have them do unto you”, etc etc is straight from the Buddhist and Hindu faiths.


Quote Rob: “...and the gods willing, I will die an atheist.  I was never a christian or a muslim or a buddist or a hindu or a jehova witness.  I never believed that certain trees could hear what I said. I never thought that cargo was on it’s way. I never believed a god could be love, or there was a ‘next’ world waiting for me to make up for this world….”

Ha ha, again you just sound like you have merely missed out on something. Most probably the American dream. It has lots of cargo cult fantasies - in fact, enough to be a complete religion in itself. You/we are not separate from any of these things and “God” certainly never wanted us to be miserable or unhappy. Whoever has cut you out of things or opportunities is only another mean and nasty miserable human.

That’s the trouble with people like you and Hitchens. He’s obviously as miserable as hell puffing away furiously at his cancer -inducing drug with his fingers stupidly poked up his nostrils. Why would anyone want to go on whining and being self-defeatist like that? You’ve no-one to blame but yourselves!

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By Rob, August 9, 2007 at 5:24 am Link to this comment

It’s beginning to take quite an effort to tell the ‘believers’ from the ‘non-believers’ on this site.  I wonder what jesus would say?  I wonder what his father, god, would say?  I wonder what Mickey Mouse would say? 

I find myself checking this site most days.  It really is addictive.  I hope we get back to the point of Christopher Hitchens.  We need some more believer’s in imaginary friends.  I know they’re out there somewhere! 

It’s quite apparent from the postings that atheists and believer’s can engage in conversation, if for no other reason, than to vent.

But there is a line in the sand when it comes to being tolerant and respectful of religious zealots.  People who think I’m going to hell and don’t mind helping god get me there are not going to ever be innocent people trying to do jesus’s bidding.

Most christians run from the bible like it was a foreign book of jokes.  They claim they have a jesus that loves them and all the rest of us infidels.  Why you can’t read the bible and find the jesus they believe in?  Where did they hear of this jesus not of the bible?  I think they made him up.  In fact, I’m sure they made him up.  Originally they heard of this poor hero called jesus, who dies in the middle of the book (why the bible can’t be considered literature).  Since most of the dribble he is made to say belongs in a goat herder on mushrooms mouth, you wonder why you would think it relevant to life.

And of course, the last refrain from the christian is I just feel it inside me.  Stomach cramps act that way.  jerry fallwell, rest well tonight, and I hope there wasn’t a hell.  If there was, you’re in it now.

The atheist has to have a strong mental stance.  Take it from a life long atheist.  I was born an atheist, I was raised an atheist, and the gods willing, I will die an atheist.  I was never a christian or a muslim or a buddist or a hindu or a jehova witness.  I never believed that certain trees could hear what I said. I never thought that cargo was on it’s way. I never believed a god could be love, or there was a ‘next’ world waiting for me to make up for this world.  I just thought that trying to do good and enjoying this world made sense.  Because that is the human take on life.  amen. Thank you, Bertand Russel.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 9, 2007 at 12:56 am Link to this comment

#93321 by Billy the Dik on 8/08 at 11:47 pm:....

Can you “keep it up”, BD? By the time you’re 50 you’re going to see things in a whole new way.  I hate to say it but you’re probably not going to like your old age very much.  Such is life astroboy!

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 9, 2007 at 12:45 am Link to this comment

#93275 by Leefeller on 8/08 at 8:28 pm: “...
Far as I know, I am the same Leefeller have not noticed any other postings with my name and count.  .....Most of us have been here for the duration and I have enjoyed most of the company….. You are correct the con artists may be here, when I get off probation I hope to move in with one of them….”

Maybe they’ll let you join the army? Would you like to be recommended for Afghanistan?

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 9, 2007 at 12:41 am Link to this comment

#93315 by Billy the Dik on 8/08 at 11:13 pm


I can understand the “glass-o-raw eggs with tobasco” bit but I’m not sure about the rest of your 527 comments, though, BD.

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By Leefeller, August 8, 2007 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

#93078 by cyrena

Far as I know, I am the same Leefeller have not noticed any other postings with my name and count.  Did not know our thread was being recommended?  Most of us have been here for the duration and I have enjoyed most of the company.

You are correct the con artists may be here, when I get off probation I hope to move in with one of them.  Not Chompers though, he has that pomposity that would drive the insane mad.

Never knowing really who the fellow posters really are, we can accept or not, and move on.  I like to writeand usually try to post something at least once a day, just to keep the old juices flowing.  Posters here seem like a nice group, far as I know most of them could be one person. 

Actually it would be interesting if let’s say Billy was actually all the other posters on this thread and you and I are the only two who are different people.  Having been here for awhile, I doubt that to be true, but seems like it would make a novel idea.

Religion seems to be a binder for most of our original discussion, but we seem to have passed that like a gall stone (except for Chompers)  and moved onto what you see now, unless a new topic comes up.  My suspicions of godsend are that he is not who he says he is, he just enjoys setting the trap for his rants. (his wink, wink happy face is a give away) on the
oher hand he could be a physcopath.

Been putting on a new roof really tired, this post seems lame to me, but I am posting it anyway.

Welcome cyrena, whomever you are and hav a slice of

Jessie’s Rowdy Pizza

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 8, 2007 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment

#93044 by Billy the Dik on 8/07 at 10:24 pm: “...“Never trust a man who won’t sit down and have a drink with you.”—W.C. Fields…” 

Well, that’s weak, even from an unimaginative putz…...

Whether Jaegermeister or Sake or Gin or Scotch, the story goes that the man drinks the first drink, the second drink drinks the first - and the third drink drinks the man!

Thanks anyway. I think I’ll pass.

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By Hemi*, August 8, 2007 at 8:28 am Link to this comment

Weak, even from an unimaginative putz.

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By cyrena, August 8, 2007 at 5:34 am Link to this comment

#92388 by Leefeller on 8/05 at 5:10 pm

Just finished posting on the Polisi thread did my morning rant, and behold poster “Godsend” almost liked what I ranted about.  The bad thing is I feel like Fadile Fadoodle is agreeing with me, now; this makes me feel uncomfortable

Is it me, or why do I feel like I have been posted congrats by the KKK?

Came over to this thread at a recommendation, (just to see how “off-topic” these comments might be) even though I’m discovering that these most recent posters are those that I’m already familiar with.

And, on this one from Leefeller, (at least this one, there may be others) I DO have to laugh out loud, since I DO know the feeling. There’s not much to feel “comfortable” about, when it’s Fadile Fadoodle agreeing with you, or congrats from the KKK.

That’s kind of how I felt when an associate professor (scam artist) offered to writeme a letter of recommendation.(that I didn’t ask for). I was like, OH MY, why on Earth would I want any “recommendation” from YOU? Thanks anyway. I think I’ll pass.

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By John Borowski, August 8, 2007 at 5:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I would like all young folks to listen to the 1950s Pop music presented by PBS stations every so often. The reason I want you to listen to that kind of music is so you will learn the truth. The truth is that you didn’t invent it grandpa did it as well.
PS I didn’t compose #92935 I’m not that smart. I will give the right some respite for a while since I’m going on my second honeymoon. We do nothing else except get in bed together and read old books to each other.

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 7, 2007 at 11:03 pm Link to this comment

#93018 by Hemi* on 8/07 at 7:31 pm: “...You fuck off, you pompous, humorless prick. And the next time that you are “visiting a prostitute” be a sport and buy her a drink, believe me she’ll need it….... what rusty anal probe is causing your “chronic despair and depression”...”

There you are, Hemi - or ‘half’ of what you could be as a decent human. Your, er, uh, ” impotent but uncontrollable exhausting rage…” has already begun. Sorry!


#93007 by Leefeller on 8/07 at 6:31 pm: “...Now we get to reincarnate, thanks for that Doug, do we get to choose or is their a waiting list…... one of your self serving diatribes takes the ring…”

Its all answered in “The Ring” but you have already more or less chosen your next incarnation, whatever it is, so the outcome will render you lees than concerned. In years gone by, there was once a large horse population but they eventually became of little use. Now, we are heading towards an age when the same will apply to humans….... just like you.

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By Hemi*, August 7, 2007 at 8:31 pm Link to this comment

“Have you tried visiting a prostitute, JB?” - Douglas Chalmers

So you got laid, eh Doug? Sharing the good news with the world. We knew you could do it!

“Regular generous alcohol and/or drug consumption = BRAIN DAMAGE. You all seem to have incurred that to some degree already. At present, you indulge in ribald stupidity which you pass off as cleverness. When the joking is over, next comes the impotent but uncontrollable exhausting rage of impaired cognitive function. After that, you will sink into chronic despair and depression. You will be of no further use to anybody, least of all yourselves. F#ck off!” - Douglas Chalmers

Don’t hold back Doug. How do you really feel about me?

“Wine is sunlight, held together by water.” - Galileo

“Always remember that I have taken more out of alcohol than alcohol has taken out of me.” - Winston Churchill

“Drink the first.  Sip the second slowly.  Skip the third.” - Knute Rockne

“If you drink, don’t drive.  Don’t even putt.” - Dean Martin

“No poems can please for long or live that are written by water-drinkers.” - Horace

“Wine is bottled poetry.” - Robert Louis Stevenson

“Everybody should believe in something; I believe I’ll have another drink.” - Anon

“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” - Benjamin Franklin

“He was a wise man who invented beer.” - Plato

“Sir, if you were my husband, I would poison your drink.” - Lady Astor to Winston Churchill

“Madam, if you were my wife, I would drink it.”
- Winston Churchill’s reply to Lady Astor

“I think a man ought to get drunk at least twice a year just on principle, so he won’t let himself get snotty about it.” - Raymond Chandler

That we can talk of drinking does not mean we are “drinkers” to the extent you would believe Doug. That I thoroughly enjoy a micro-brew or wine with a meal or with friends does not make me a drunkard. Just come out and say it, you’ve never had a beer, glass of wine or a mixed drink. That’s all right, nothing to be ashamed of, a noble and intelligent choice. Or perhaps you protest too much and you are the one in need of AA? Of course, you are warning us of the evil you have faced . Ever more noble. You mensch you!

That you are disturbed by my enjoying a sophomoric laugh among friends (even the online type) does not make me in the least bit insecure nor will any critique from you. You are not worthy. That you continue to respond with “uncontrollable exhausting rage” from “impaired cognitive function” did make me wonder, for only a moment, what rusty anal probe is causing your “chronic despair and depression”. I communed with the late Harish Johari and his message to me was “Tell Doug to pull the rusty anal probe out, it is preventing him from reaching enlightenment. There’s that and the constipation problem.” I didn’t tell him Doug, honest. Harish was apparently a sucker for a sophomoric laugh too. Who knew?

You fuck off, you pompous, humorless prick. And the next time that you are “visiting a prostitute” be a sport and buy her a drink, believe me she’ll need it.

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By Leefeller, August 7, 2007 at 7:31 pm Link to this comment

Now we get to reincarnate, thanks for that Doug, do we get to choose or is their a waiting list.  Yes you are the answer man, or Mr. Know it All. 

“Regular generous alcohol and/or drug consumption = BRAIN DAMAGE. You all seem to have incurred that to some degree already. At present, you indulge in ribald stupidity which you pass off as cleverness. When the joking is over, next comes the impotent but uncontrollable exhausting rage of impaired cognitive function. After that, you will sink into chronic despair and depression. You will be of no further use to anybody, least of all yourselves. F#ck off!”

Your humorless life must be interesting, since you assume you know so much about us, I will take the liberty to describe you.

Windy, pompous, self righteous, and probably narcissistic. Being full of yourself must take a lot of time, but you seem quite good at it though.

Since I guess you believe in reincarnation, so when you come back you will select the pompous ass ticket, you are quite good you know.  Having your panties in a twist, whining all around Truth Dig because they did not post one of your self serving diatribes takes the ring. 

Your broadside attack on this post proves you know nothing about us, nor what we have posted in the past. Most of us feel quite comfortable with each other on this post, probably more comfortable then you can imagine. Your assumptions are worthy of your rants.

When I cease to exist, your tripe will continue to be nothing as I, nor will I care as I do not now.

Have a nice day Doug, wink, wink.

Moms Pizza and beer (but not for Chompers)

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By Leefeller, August 7, 2007 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment

My suspicions are finding some footing, been watching J.B. on other posts and find his style has been all over the place.  Who is the real John Borowski, please stand up.  He has been one of the few unregistrant’s posters who has responded.  His response to the paragraph comment I posted, was so un Billy though!

I am starting to suspect that Billy is really Godsend who stated I was (Zionist excrement) sounds more like Billy.  The wink, wink happy face fits now that I think of it.
Though that poster may be registered.

Must admit I have done a few posts that way myself, using the name “Passing the Wind” Maybe I am not real either?

Enough for now.

nothing like good old navy

Chow

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 7, 2007 at 6:13 pm Link to this comment

#92935 by John Borowski on 8/07 at 3:01 pm (Unregistered commenter): “...My dear Hemi*. Not just anyone can post under my name you simpleton. Only a man who has the perspicacity to use a laundry marker to obfuscate the name of the manufacturer on the left breast of a light rain jacket. A man who has never sampled the sugar laden corporate swills .....A man that has never succumbed to the enticements of ....A man suffering from a severe case of paragraphitis and yet has never visited a doctor….”

Have you tried visiting a prostitute, JB? Oh, I should ask as regards a given…....

John Borowski : “Ladies and Animals, I stand naked before you. While you all stand in a circle holding hands with heads bowed, I will confess my sins….”

....or stop masturbating while posting here, please!

**********************************************************
#92670 by Hemi* on 8/06 at 6:23 pm: “...I understand the concept of a personal deity(s) and that deity(s) creating humans in it’s (their) own image. Thus the humans commune with the deity(s) on some plane. I don’t hold to this concept in that I think the creation lineage went from human to deity. My question regarding your statement is does the “Creative Force of the Universe” have consciousness/awareness? If the CFU had consciousness, is it still conscious? Is it living? Was it necessary for a CFU to have consciousness? Did (does) it plan and decide? Is the historical tendency for humans to accept the existence of a super-consciousness proof enough of the actual existence of such? Is the acceptance of a conscious, creative force simply self-mollification…?”

I assume that your answer is “Farina”. Oh, and stop that “self-mollification” - JB is one wanker too many already!

For someone who is capable of such a feat as “...First I do my deity and that is followed shortly thereafter by a peeity. As you well know Lee, we don’t actually purchase our ale, it’s more of a rental…...”, you really don’t need me to answer your questions. After all, the answers are all available to those who follow the Path of Realization of Truth (not the one to the nearest bar!).

You might ask if it is necessary for humans (such as yourselves) to have “consciousness”. If you do not have “awareness”, then the Universe really has not much use for you as supposedly sentient beings. In that case, you all might not be around for that much longer - at least in human form. Try re-incarnating in some carcass more appropriate for your level of non-conscious involvement in life next time, huh.

At the level you seem to feel most comfortable with in future, you will be pleased that you will be no longer aware of your previous difficulties with the human state. You will then not need me to answer any questions as you will not have any - as you will no longer formulate such thoughts in what passes for your brain. You should then be happy in the way you now aspire to become.

Regular generous alcohol and/or drug consumption = BRAIN DAMAGE. You all seem to have incurred that to some degree already. At present, you indulge in ribald stupidity which you pass off as cleverness. When the joking is over, next comes the impotent but uncontrollable exhausting rage of impaired cognitive function. After that, you will sink into chronic despair and depression. You will be of no further use to anybody, least of all yourselves. F#ck off!

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By John Borowski, August 7, 2007 at 4:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

My dear Hemi*. Not just anyone can post under my name you simpleton. Only a man who has the perspicacity to use a laundry marker to obfuscate the name of the manufacturer on the left breast of a light rain jacket. A man who has never sampled the sugar laden corporate swills that are brand name soft drinks. A man that has never succumbed to the enticements of the Marlboro Man. A man suffering from a severe case of paragraphitis and yet has never visited a doctor. A man reading old books constantly on the subject of science, astronomy, and economics. A man only looking at PBS and some sports and yet is so divested of but still strangely in tune with the corporate American pop culture to know that Smack-Down is only worthy of his disdain. A man whose nascent Yaris has no moon roof, spoiler, bra, baby on board or ribbon on the trunk. A man who except for an occasional solitaire, has never Rubbed-Off for a million dollars. A man who chastises you cowards for using pseudonyms instead of your proper names. A man who wears as a proud feather in his hat the fact that from birth to death he was never inveigled by the religious devil. Take that you extreme right wing religious lackeys.

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By Hemi*, August 7, 2007 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

Hey Lee,

“Isn’t a deity, what an Irishman does after a few too many?” - Leefeller

You got that right. First I do my deity and that is followed shortly thereafter by a peeity. As you well know Lee, we don’t actually purchase our ale, it’s more of a rental.

You know Lee, I thought the “Chompers” reference in JB’s post was suspicious too. Keep in mind that as an “Unregistered commenter”, anyone can post under the name “John Borowski”. Ah, the plot thickens!

Leinenkugel’s Honey Weiss Bier

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By Leefeller, August 7, 2007 at 2:37 pm Link to this comment

Hey a little side note, can anyone tell me if this a complement or an insult? 

A poster named Godsend sent me this. I really think it is Fadula Fiddle using another name. He really got mad when I said he touts his opinions like it is the gospel.

“You are a shoveler of lies, deception and diversion (Zionist excrement)!

You can’t just keep lying and think you’re fooling anybody. wink

Now that my feelers are hurt, I will now go and paint with art and spirits.

Oreos and milk and missed last post
milk and Oreos

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By Leefeller, August 7, 2007 at 2:24 pm Link to this comment

Hemi,

Isn’t a deity, what an Irishman does after a few to many?

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By Leefeller, August 7, 2007 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment

J.B.

Are you really Billy incognitos?  The “chompers” may have given you away.  Sort of like Birf Day!

Animal rights folks might get upset if you keep doing that maybe the ladies after they get though laughing. 

S. on a shingle

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By John Borowski, August 7, 2007 at 11:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Shenonymous, have you ever crossed paths with Chompers. I think it would be a crossing made in holy heaven. You are not registered if you are of a eponymic condition.

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By John Borowski, August 7, 2007 at 10:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ladies and Animals, I stand naked before you. While you all stand in a circle holding hands with heads bowed, I will confess my sins. I have never owned a pair of jeans. Drank a Coke or Pepsi or smoked a Marlboro. I never looked at the top ten on TV. I read old books constantly on the subject of science, astronomy, and economics. The only cars I have owned are Echos and the nascent Yaris. None of these cars has a moon roof, spoiler, bra, baby on board, or ribbons on the trunk. None of my wearing apparel has any advertising. One day I inadvertently purchase a light rain jacket and to my horror, it had the name of the manufacturer on the left breast. Instead of throwing it away, I used a laundry marker to obfuscate it. (I was usually broke in them days) I have a severe case of paragraphitis. I have never visited a doctor. I have never played any games on my computer except an occasional solitaire. I only buy brand name products if there are no generics available. I only look at PBS and some sports. (No Smack-Down) I have never played the Lottery or tried the Rub- Off for a million dollars. Now that I have cleansed my soul, I feel so much better now.

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By Hemi*, August 7, 2007 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

“sitting here wearing my Kilt and tank top, with a cigar in my mouth and ten empty beer cans rattling around as I type with my two index fingers” - Leefeller


“That’s hot!” - Paris Hilton

Crepes

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By Leefeller, August 6, 2007 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment

My fellow Heathens, believer and fence post sitters.  She has spoken, it was nice to hear from She Unyunized and all.

Why do we have De cart before the horse? Yes it is a very strange electronic Pookia buddy system. Let’s face it electronic mail misses many of the innuendos connected with personal contact eye, tone of voice and even if inclined body language are all absent.

Sometimes sarcasm, cynicism, tongue in cheek, light humor all may elude the reader. Of course the sender can be messing up on his signals. We seem to have made the transition quite effectively, if I do say so myself.

Actually, the advantage of sitting here wearing my Kilt and tank top, with a cigar in my mouth and ten empty beer cans rattling around as I type with my two index fingers is highly comfortable. And should be appreciated by you.  Of course this is tongue in cheek, but the liberty of expressing ourselves this way is quite pleasant, writers do have some freedom.  What is most valuable is timing convince or just the convince over all. 

When people ask why we do not use our real names, they invade this feeling of convince and personal outreach.  Now if people feel comfortable using their real names, I say fine and dandy.

Nothing like eggs and

Corned beef hash

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By Hemi*, August 6, 2007 at 7:58 pm Link to this comment

How ‘bout that! She checking in from parts unknown, they’re all Greek to me. I’m envious of the sights they are seeing. I can do without the transatlantic flight, herniated disks you see.

“It is only within the power of art to change the world.” - Shenonymous

Who is this Art and what’s stopping him from changing the world?

“When we were first married my wife told me I had the body of damned Greek god. Now she tells me I have the body of a god damned Greek!” Please, no offense intended. Some of my best friends are Greek gods. (I think that one was either Buddy Hackett or Norm Crosby)

Falafel

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By Hemi*, August 6, 2007 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment

Douglas, regarding:

“The genuine religious of all eras only ever took people on a path back to the Source of their own Creation. That is, a conscious link with the Creative Force of the Universe and a thorough appreciation of It and our part in Its Universe.” - DC

I understand the concept of a personal deity(s) and that deity(s) creating humans in it’s (their) own image. Thus the humans commune with the deity(s) on some plane. I don’t hold to this concept in that I think the creation lineage went from human to deity. My question regarding your statement is does the “Creative Force of the Universe” have consciousness/awareness? If the CFU had consciousness, is it still conscious? Is it living? Was it necessary for a CFU to have consciousness? Did (does) it plan and decide? Is the historical tendency for humans to accept the existence of a super-consciousness proof enough of the actual existence of such? Is the acceptance of a conscious, creative force simply self-mollification?

Farina

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 6, 2007 at 5:18 pm Link to this comment

#92388 by Leefeller on 8/05 at 5:10 pm: “...This guy makes Doug look like the sane guy on the block, with his magnificent seven demensions and all. Is it me, or why do I feel like I have been posted congrats by the KKK? .....Life is great for some of us, (others suffer starve and die, now that I think of it we all die) luck of the draw means we are still here. Well it could be worse, I could be living in Scotland….”

Of all the gin-joints in all the world, you had to pick….... Scotland!?!? Dumb is as dumb does, duh….


#92533 by Leefeller on 8/06 at 8:55 am: “...If we cannot laugh at ourselves and we take our selves so seriously, life becomes nothing but a headstone around our necks. Your lumping atheists with all religions deserved my jabs.  Religion is only opinion and conjecturer, except some people take the fables and stories for real making them life death…”

Huh? The reason for the “fables and stories” and the theatrical getup of robes and ceremony is to assuage peoples’ very real fears and anguish and uncertainty. That has been a powerful influence in community life down through the ages and especially at times of death and personal and/or collective grieving. It gives people something to hold onto and thus emotional stability.

If you want to, go back to the times of Indian mystical Tantra and see for yourself the roots of all of these kinds of “religious” traditions. The sights and sounds and practices have been intentionally crafted to help and to heal. They have their beginnings long before formal education and empirical science but are just as applcicable today as they are direct links with our own psyches through our “R-complexes”, etc etc. Try http://www.sanatansociety.com/index.htm for starters.

So much of a functional society is based on traditions and rituals and ceremonies developed out of desirable mores for its own perceived betterment. Thus religions evolved and, latterly, eventually usurped those roots for their own power and aggrandizement. Today’s political parties and politicians are no different with their own brand of snake-oil and fakery and they seem to serve a similar end.

The difference is that it is the politicians (including pseudo-religious figures taking on the roles of politicians) who lead people backwards into wars and violence and errors of all kinds. The genuine religious of all eras only ever took people on a path back to the Source of their own Creation. That is, a conscious link with the Creative Force of the Universe and a thorough appreciation of It and our part in Its Universe.

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By Shenonymous, August 6, 2007 at 5:13 pm Link to this comment

Hello all, the weather here has been divine (pun intended).  Having the time of our lives. J stopped in Carthage on the way to Greece to meet up with his geologist cronies for a one-day conference. We tooled around Rome for 2 days before that. My dad’s grandparents lived in Calabria (it was a long drive) so we went sightseeing around the toe. Then it was on to Athens.  We took an overnight ferry from the Piraeus to Crete to tour Knossos. The rest of the time is being spent visiting family north of Athens and in Thessaloniki to review the contemporary art biennale. I will writea paper that will get me some reimbursement for the trip. Not all of it, but some that is justified. That is the way you survive the requirement to stay current in your field in academia. So much for the vacation. Sorry for the personal update but can’t send postcards to blog apparitions. I feel some of you are “real” friends, well, of a type, and I have a peculiar affection for you. Etherwave relationships have not yet quite coalesced intellectually for me yet. My inner eye is still squinting about it all. I guess some people actually “live” on the ‘Net. I don’t expect we would ever meet in corporeal existence. Interactions with physical people can be even more surreal for that matter. I hope there is or are some precocious minds out there who will one day writeabout relationships that exist somewhere between the physical world and the electronic world, which is real in a weird sense. It is a Cartesian problem, f’sure. I found Café@4U in Athens that is very much like any other cyber café, say in Nu Joisey, coffee, sandwiches, etc., to catch up with family back home and blog buddies.

I see the Hitchens’ forum has gone afield from the notions put forth in the Hitchens/Wiener interview. It’s evolved into critique of personalities and personal proclivities. Hardly an intellectual approach to the problem of religion’s poisonosity. While Billy, Leefeller, and Hemi continue to respond in an intelligent way in spite of their infusion of humor (great humor by the way), the newcomers seem to prattle rather flimsy opinions and are too lazy to check out the over 1000 posts to see that all their problems (or points if you prefer) have been dealt with and/or solved. Mike M-C continues to be his inimitable self.  Hey Mike, I’m checking in. You are such a dear, you who sort of walks with Jesus and shares with the world. Yes, the world would be a better place if all the Christians were of your class. Rob you may have looked up the spelling of Bertrand Russell but you still did not get it right at #88812. But your comments are by and large pertinent.

Back in about two weeks. There is so much going on in the world to provide food for atheist/non-atheist (uh, believer) discussion.  For instance, hyphenMichael (-Michael) did post something about a Christian group. I sure hope there will be lots of comments about their sanctimonious activities. He didn’t say what exactly they would be doing. How many war-torn Islamic countries are there? And do you think when found by the Islamists they will be losing the heads they haven’t lost already? It might be called being unheaded. I’m permanently Unyunized, but I will control myself. I am still giggling at how weird I got right before I left for Europe. That very clever fellow, Leefeller, I do hope he is painting.  It is only within the power of art to change the world.  Mike M-C, Leefeller, Billy the Dik, and Hemi are the quadratic equation in my book of metaphors, meaning they are all positive roots that solve some very interesting polynomials. And with that oblique statement, have some…

Ambrosia

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By -Michael, August 6, 2007 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment

Re:  #92543 by Mike Mid-City on 8/06 at 9:32 am


Re:  His gift is freely given and freely received

I’m not sure how freely this message is received.  It is not just information, it is rhetoric aimed at vulnerable, uneducated folks (mostly).  I’m not saying that rhetoric is good or bad, it is an efficient form of communication.  But to employ a persuasion which holds the potential to convert a person’s ideology is wrong regardless of intent. 

After all, the missionaries are not just handing out bibles and answering questions.  Their ‘gift’ is laden with bias and emotion, not reason and fact.

I rather misspoke when I suggested that Hitler et al used guns to get their point across.  No gun in the world will create a loyal man.  Inspirational words, one-sided opinions, and a charismatic persona elicit the sheep. 

Perhaps it is not an overtly forced gift, but when you consider the audience and the delivery it’s hard not to question the morality of their actions.  Conversely, they’ve given up on the comforts of home and strive to bring basic needs and happiness to the unfortunate – who the hell am I to grumble about it?

Anchovies   - Michael

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By John Borowski, August 6, 2007 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I lost my belief in religion when I was at a tender age of seven. There was a big championship game between St. Joeys and St Peteys. Before the big game, I was praying that St Joeys would beat St. Peteys. The clouds suddenly parted and I heard a voice overhead holler down “Oh F it”. St. Joeys lost 100 to 0. (I was pitching for St. Joeys)

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By Leefeller, August 6, 2007 at 9:55 am Link to this comment

Doug,

If we cannot laugh at ourselves and we take our selves so seriously, life becomes nothing but a headstone around our necks. Your lumping atheists with all religions deserved my jabs.  Religion is only opinion and conjecturer, except some people take the fables and stories for real making them life death. Violent history of religion is a case in point. 

The subtle difference between Religion and Politics are politics are real and the rule of law is made by man.  Religion is not real and made up by man.  (If my history serves me correct women may have had some part but little).

Both religion and politics have for the most part served one purpose only, power and control. This is simplistic, but I do not have time for a thesis here.

As I have stated to you before, I do not believe in god, science has not proven the existence of god.  You can believe what you want and I respect your right to believe in what you want.

Bush has all of us by the kilts and we have little choice but to bend over, following the footsteps of congress, rule of law is now past tense.

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By -Michael, August 6, 2007 at 8:18 am Link to this comment

Sorry, I left out a significant leader… Bush.

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By -Michael, August 6, 2007 at 8:13 am Link to this comment

Hi guys.

I was listening to a story on NPR about a group of Christians who have launched a clandestine missionary campaign in a war-torn Islamic country (didn’t catch which one).  Being dedicated young Christian soldiers, they faced their impending death (at least they’re realistic) with a sense of righteousness and divine purpose.  They’re role model? Jesus, of course. 

Mike, do you admire these Christians, or think them foolish?

Suleyman, Pope Alexander II, Stalin, Hitler…

History is fraught with lessons that should preclude us from forcing our ideals on others. 

Does it matter that these folks are using persistent rhetoric in lieu of a gun?  Or am I comparing apples to…

Kumquats   - Michael

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By Douglas Chalmers, August 6, 2007 at 1:56 am Link to this comment

#91366 by Leefeller on 8/01 at 7:24 am: “...Not all your windy dissertations elude me, this one caught me eye. Yes is has been a slow week….  Are you serious, do you actually believe what you have attested too? I believe you are funning us…..”

Go down to the bridge in Minnesota and ask that question of Bush….

Go down to Wall street and ask that question of Paulson and Bernanke re the current crisis….

The rest of the list could fill this page…... so, don’t bother me….... at least you are more polite in other topics…...

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By Leefeller, August 5, 2007 at 6:10 pm Link to this comment

Life is great even for heathens, god is there for some that feel the need.

Just finished posting on the Polisi thread did my morning rant, and behold poster “Godsend” almost liked what I ranted about.  The bad thing is I feel like Fadile Fadoodle is agreeing with me, now; this makes me feel uncomfortable. My contrariety is challenged by agreement of ultimated   obsessive anti Zionist.  This guy makes Doug look like the sane guy on the block, with his magnificent seven demensions and all. Is it me, or why do I feel like I have been posted congrats by the KKK?

She, please come back we are hanging on by the last of our tooths here.

Life is great for some of us, (others suffer starve and die, now that I think of it we all die)  luck of the draw means we are still here. Well it could be worse, I could be living in Scotland, leftovers are

Prawns with rice and salsa Roja,  Unyons, peppers,  dash of lemon celentro and cheese.

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By Hemi*, August 5, 2007 at 3:09 pm Link to this comment

“These other heathen nonbelievers, well I pray for them and now I pray for you.” - Mike Mid-City

Thanks Mike. Even heathens are appreciative.

I think JB has taken your good “Churchin’” as an indication that you are right wing, Republican, fundamentalist and all of those lovely adverbs. He has not followed the history of communicating with you in this forum. It must be hard for him to imagine that anyone with a religious affiliation can also be open-minded. I would not characterize you as right wing or leftist but independent.

You my friend, if I may call you that, are not wrapped up in the pomp and circumstance of organized religion. From what you have told us, you instead are using your local church as a base to do what you see as Christ-like work for the benefit of others without any compensation taken or guilt given. This lifestyle obviously grounds you and keeps you happy and content with your life. JB is not aware of this, or he is and still finds fault with these circumstances. It’s hard to discern.

We will not be headed to a right-wing blog, we will continue clucking our clucks right here.

Boiler Plate Special…. Yummm!

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By John Borowski, August 5, 2007 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The problem with the extreme right is that they believe that god wants the obscene riches’ asses padded and yours not. They then use the right wing talk shows on TV and radio to get the nots to believe it.

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By Leefeller, August 5, 2007 at 9:22 am Link to this comment

Hey,

Heathens,  not infidels, guess it depends on which god is making the call. Is a heathen any one not like yourself?  Heathens still may preform the missionary position, does that count? 

Never considered myself a heathen before, find this quite different on how I look at myself now.

Maybe we can reconstitute the inquisition and have heathen parties. Across the street the Moslems can have Infidel parties,  Mid Mike City could be the guest of honor, off with the head instead of the hat.

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By John Borowski, August 5, 2007 at 5:32 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

God bless you Billy the Dik, your last comment to Middy portends you do have talent!

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By Leefeller, August 4, 2007 at 7:40 pm Link to this comment

John Borowski on 8/04 at 3:43 am

Take your meds. before you post next time, please!

Doug has you in the fifth demension moving on to the sixth, about four more sheets to the wind and you can make it to the 7th.

Sorry pookia buddies, but things are really slow, hope She comes back and livens things up a few notches. Especially now that we all know we are right wing Ann Colter fan club members.

Well, I have to go do some morse code hammering on the roof.

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