Finally…userluck22 is a meathead mercenary skirmisher who thinks he can browbeat anyone with an avalanche of “censorship & obfuscation,” as you put it very well.  I swear these types take a laxative for the center of the brain that issues words.

Yes, net discrimination must be stopped and stopped now.  What is the best strategy, the best tactics?  We are at your side.  I’m going to post this at the TD Hitchens page as well.

Yes, I saw your #122582 post before.

Just to be sure, she, here is the link to the article (not the post):

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/20/5924/

Also, see my comment posted below before before you go there(#122582 by PaulMagillSmith on 12/26 at 8:40 am)

In that case PMS, just repost it here and stop all this silly back and forth between TD and CD or post it on “our” CD site.  Aristotle, my favorite misogynist said, “Give unto a thing only that what it deserves.”  Screw the Net Neutrality article; we’ll just start up a new dialog.  Most of the ones on the Net Neutrality site are dunderheads anyway.  I’m sure everyone there would be interested more than you might even think.  Just copy and paste dear one.

Gotta go, I’m setting up my new studio today.  But I’ll check in this afternoon.  Have a great day.  The days are getting imperceptibly longer now.

She,
It’s on the article about Net Neutrality, and yes it is still posted, but I am becoming highly suspicious now because my comment is still even now listed as ‘Your comment is awaiting moderation’, while a very long ridiculous comment, completely insane & off subject, posted after it doesn’t say a word about moderation. I feel this ‘other’ comment was just posted there to cover mine up.

I’m sure what I posted touches a few nerves, or perhaps I’m just being a bit paranoid. On the other hand, since the MSM is controlled, some of the people who control it also are invested in the internet providers, and the collusive government has the ability to ‘tap’ almost every method of communications, perhaps my suspicians are valid, logical, & reasonable.

PMS, your post still doesn’t show up!  I will try one more time if you say you are going to post it again.  After that, kaput!  Are you sure you are posting it to the link you noted?

PMS,

The article on CD may be having a problem because of what the article is about, the problem?

If that is Billy, Chompers needs some feed back.

Obtuse me. How long will we have our freedom.

I re-posted it, she, and it is now at the bottom of the page:

PaulMagillSmith December 25th, 2007 2:00 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.

But it’s been waiting for 12 hours now. Christmas might have something to do with that, but we still need to keep our eyes on this, right?

My Bad…Paul, sorry. I meant abstruse NOT obtuse,  It truly apologize.  I have always found your posts interesting if abstruse at times. Please accept my sincere admission of mindless mistake.  I look forward to your piquant and astute comments.

Oh by the way, I checked out the CommonDreams site, and what exactly did you say that might be interesting? “Sorry for the double post. I guess someone in cyberspace is asleep at the switch.” 

I hope to see you around more often.

Do you really think this is a good description of me, she, or did you mean abstract?

obtuse—-Lacking quickness of perception or intellect. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity.

Actually, if either of those words apply then I am disappointed in myself because I would rather be direct & concrete.

Not really obtuse, She, and you might want to go to this link to see what I posted. Why do you have a different name now, billy?

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/20/5924/

Billy, Billy, is that you?  Really you?  The name came up without and capitals.  We, at least the three of us: me, myself, and I, have missed you, and your rotten tongue, said with much endearment.  Truly.  Yeah, exactly, where are you?  Where have you been?  We thought you died or something or got run out of the forum by that idiot FA. I get a hit and run email every so often from MMC.  I always send a reply but he never replies to my replies?????  Seems like some sort of a mental aberration.  You are welcome to join us at CommonDreams see my earlier post here for the address.  PaulMagillSmith has seemingly joined us just the other day, but he is quite obtuse.

BTW to all:
Happy Solstice, started early this a.m. at 1:00 am EST.  It’s going to be a very good year, right?

PMS, FYI, we had to move our CD site because we overloaded it! Wujabaleev?  I talked with home office in Maine, and they can’t figure it out either why the site just shut down.  Anyway, they invited us to hop onto another site that wasn’t used much so we did.  If, and according to your recent post here, you are thinking of affiliating with us, though I can’t think of any good reason why except we are an interesting clan, you are welcome to join our little band of weird warriors at http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/30/2200/

Hey Leefeller,
As ‘She’ said CD doesn’t ban people. Sometimes my posts get held up awhile (I think due to increased traffic…which is a positive sign), but they always eventually go through. How could they do that to us for posting based on research, introspection, reflection, and opinion? There are some obvious trolls running through threads, but they usually become evident pretty quickly by their contrary or insane positions. Try again Lee, ok? See you at CD…you too, Shenonymous.

Lee, what’s going on?  First notice about MMC new post on TD, then yours which says banned from CD???  Naw, CD doesn’t ban, our dicussion is live and well.  Did you mean something else?  I don’t want to come back here to discuss anything but it is a way to get message to various e-persons.  See you back at our CD place.

Anyone out there?  Been banned from common dreams.org or at least cannot get in, must have something to do with being to common?  Well, if any can reply here feel free, otherwise so long heritics.

Getting to know you, getting to know all about you… doesn’t always make anybody love you.  It isn’t wise to put too much stock into anyone, unless you know them really really well and then sometimes it still doesn’t merit commitment. That may be cynical but must check things out (as you did John), if there is anything that is reasonable and worthy, then integrate it into your own thinking. Throw the rest away.  No one is worth reverence.  Hitchens has some good spots and some that are not.  For instance, I totally disagree with him on Iraq, but I agree that religion poisons.  You are welcome to join our conversation at
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/28/2149/ 
TD seems to have truncated some of us so we moved.  This one may not make it.

I’m trying too.  Billy, you are sorely missed.  I’ll be surprised if this gets in.  See #96543.

Hey Billy,

If you are still around, come on over to the other site. Michael is still doing his gonad brain routine, and it’s taking it’s toll on me old sanity.  (Not really, but it would be great for your input)

Heineken please

nf

You sound like a chap we would enjoy sharing a conversation with.  Scroll down to the address of the common dreams site and join us.

It amazes me that this thread is still alive.  It is apparent to this anti-theist that it is self evident that believers have a deficiency in their logic and reasoning abilities.  The best that can be done is to explain to them why believing in the nonsense preached by a Jim Jones, David Kore sh, L Ron Hubbard and yes Jesus Christ is silly and insulting to thinking people. To go further is an apparent waste of time.  Until such time that religious indoctrination of children by their parents is declared child abuse and illegal, and that this idea is observed world wide, we are doomed to a life of terror and subservience to the religious crowd. After all, they are in the majority.

What is also amazing is that the vast majority of people fully enjoy and are enamored of the technological acchievments (air and ground travel, electronics, medical, astronomical, etc) produced by the brightest of human beings, yet when 93% of the members of the national academy of science (according to Richard Dawkins) admit to being atheist, the majority of the populace chooses instead to follow the teachings of idiots like Jerry Falwell.

Leefeller,

I am every man who strains against the shackles of religion and intolerance.  I have seen enough in my life to be leary of all revelations visited upon believers in their dreams.  I am every women who struggles against injustice and cruelty invoked by mankind and presented by god(s).

I am the conscience of this world and not the insanity.  I am a human being, slanted in ways that ask for answers to be grounded in love of life in this world.

I know goodness when I see it and I want more.  I am an elephant headed for extinction and I am not afraid.  What a short time life is and yet I have been here all my life.  Suicide is not the answer to life, but rather a life spent in the sunshine of responsibility and virtue.

I am as sure that religion does harm as I am that it is untrue. I would like to have pointy ears. And a blue eye and a green eye. 
Thank you Bertrand Russel…l

Rob,

Do you happen to have pointy ears and two eyes?

Met some person named Antichrist who reminds me very much of you.
The elephnts have not died, they just went to clean water.

Clear water tea

I came back to this site much as a herd of elephants linger around a dead family member.  I don’t know why the site was so poorly attended, or why so many posts were destroyed?  I enjoyed the dialogue and gained some sense of community about the ideas we expressed.

I know all good things must end, but it still is bittersweet.  I feel we may never come this way again.  As an atheist, I have prepared myself for the end and fear it not.  Still I hate to linger with the dead elephants.  They seem to know and yet they are not afraid.  So as I go into that gentle night, I say some of us did like it here.  Thank you Bertrand Russel…l

One last try, have they shut down the thread?  Billy are you still there?  Are we dead?  Naw, try the CommonDream site.  We are swinging. See us at
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/28/2149/

If any of you Hitchen the Kilts posters are out there in computer land.  Give She’s idea a try, I did and it did not hurt.  Mid Drift Mike will get to meet anitichrist, who does not seem as bad as he sounds. (could pass for Billy)

Truthdrug may have run it’s course for this tread, they may be running out of space, clabber space that is.

Unyun soop and Baggles

Leefeller, you seem to be the only one getting in. hahahaha…funny if this one does???  Try this BTD, et al

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/28/2149/

And there are only four posts there!  It would be sort of like a preemptive strike
From an Unyun - SM

Spumoni

All right one more testy, testy.

Will try to sand this windy article just because.  Same logic Republicns like Marsheal use for any arguments. 

Have attempted to sand a post against religion, which I found very interesting.  But every attempt was lost into nevernever land. This poster talked about remembering and what he called “basic human intellectual laziness” he starts out describing the new child being an intelectually gifted being and we end up with a creature with an ever more narrow stultified brane and consciousness, tyen incapable of an origional thought.  All by rigidly enforced dictums of his religious faith.  The individul goes on to becomes devoid of the abi8lity to think altogether and can only remember.  He ends by saying the individual can accumulate knowledge, but cannot do anything useful with i, unless it conforms with the imbecilities forced on him by his religion.

I usually like to type in my word processor, but instead did the whole thing in the Trutdog box, which is way to small for me eyes.  The above concept is interesting, because I agree with the premise but not how he got there.

Well here goes

another cup of coffee

She,

Must say the fun is less if, we cannot post anything over a few small paragraphs.

The blacklisting as others call it on the rest of Trughdog (windy kilt wearing Chompers really has been screaming)  does question integrity from this site. 

Checked out the Common Dreams site and could not find a Hitching post with any threads.  Did find Good Riddance Turd Blossom
by Garrison Keillor, though, the title seems approriate, but the article really is not.

Well better go, I may be exceeding my word quota and this may not make it.

sunflower seeds

Sort of like fascist hitmen…Whatever happened to freedom of speech. CommonDreams has no limit.  You should see how long some of them are. We should find a Hitchens article there and go forward??? Anyone up for it?

Magpie

Worried about Hemi and Billy, looks like MMC and Leefeller are making it. My short one too.  Maybe if we break up comments into small bits and send however many it takes to get message across?  Going to another forum kind of defeats my purpose of having it open to any and all.  We might get somewhat inbred otherwise.  What other forums are you posting to?

I was able to preview this one.  Weird.

Hitchen Posters,

We could create an Unyun Hitchin Post at Google? If you want to remain agronomist’s, (I have had to work with them)  you can change to a different name email address?  You can reach me at (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address), my last name is Guy. Now all I have to do is check?

Truthdig has become strangedig, at least annoying.

Yes, sleepytime tea

All right, I think they are nicking us on the number of words, my other post did not go through, it was not up to Chomper’s windy stuff, but it was a lot bigger than these, if this one get’s through?

Homomade Strawberry Icecream

Oh! Now it works?

Fresh garden tomatoes and grass fed burgers.

She,

For the last couple of days, we have been audited or not posted, the problem or cause has not been brought to our attention.  This seems to be all over Truthdig.

I suspect they are trying to keep some posters short?

When I hit preview it acts like it submits and does not post.

Truthdig or someone else is causing this to happen, I think it is Mid drift Mike!

Hi all, I’m trying to return to the forum, but it isn’t working right.  Leefeller got in somehow.  Anyone know what’s wrong?

Ok folks,

I have tried to post several different posts, but when I tried to preview they say I submitted them?  Then they did not come up.  If they did you will have three of the same posts. 

Maybe I am becoming as windy as Chompers and Truthdig is culling my posts.  Oh well!

Second cup of coffee

Billy,

Your words paint more than a few pictures.

“Spear-stabbed Jesus Jackets with nail-hole gloves and sneekers, a hat-0-thorns (seasonably adjustable with halo or horns depending on the weather), Jesus Jeans and, most importantly, Randall Terry Facial-Diapers!”

Needed that!

Iniie and outie burger with Unyun and fries

Thanks Mike.

Not tied to the Hitchen post but,

Do not know how Hitchen’s would feel about this, but,

I bet we could make a killing (maybe for real)  designing and marketing a humblepie Jesus Jacket, we could all become wealthy or cease to exist depending on the market. 

What would an Avowing Atheist jacket look like? We could get Hitchen’s to be our poster guy.

For Michael we could have an up the arse fence post agnostic jacket.  How about Berka’s for Moslem men, it could have a hat that looks like the hard hat with two bottles of beer, instead it would have two claw hammers on springs.  Hitchen’s writes about some of the problems Moslem men have, this may help them see the light.

There is a Moslem lady making a killing on Berka swim suits. (Not bee keepers suits) they look more like the old 1880’s swim fashions.

Natural no bee keepers suits not smoke, wild crazy man
Real bee honey

Mike Mid-City

I am the antichrist and I do get to define my impression of you.  The reason for using the bible to discuss christianity is that there is no other body of work to define your beliefs in imaginary people. 

It is easy diatribe to say that I just haven’t read the bible with the right understanding.  You would think that the creator of your universe could make his book more coherent.  jesus was obviously illiterate and never wrote anything down.  The only thing his father could writewas his ten commandments and what wonderful laws to live by those turned out to be. 

Christopher Hitchens was way too kind in his assessment of religion.  He failed to mention the incredulous, copius amounts of treasure spent everyday on new bigger better churches in this country.  Or the free ride churches enjoy without so much as a morsel of taxes paid.

To pity me is to waste your time, but you were taught to do that at the weekly ho-downs on god’s day of rest.  Did you know we had “blue-laws” in my city until 1996.  It took Wal-Mart, that other bastion of humanity, to break them up.  For those of you that don’t know “blue laws” they were set up to prohibit, under penalty of law, items from being purchased on sundays.  Seems god not only needed the rest, but hated the sound of cash registers on his day off.  That’s why he don’t use cash registers in churchs.  And usually there is soft cloth in the bottom of the offereing plate so the coins don’t make a sound.  (That’s where the phrase “hush money” comes from).  You could buy nothing before 12 o’clock on sunday and weird items after 12.  No toothbrush on sunday, but toothpaste after 12.  Wal-Mart started by placing a rope down the aisle to separate the ‘can buy’ items from the ‘can’t buy’ items. I kid you not.  The jesus freaks were responsible for this insanity.  Finally, the gods of Wal-Mart prevailed and now we can buy toilet paper on sunday.  Nothing says ‘jesus’ like a freshly wiped bottom.

If I appear ‘wed’ to your bible, think what you would do if atheists had a book.

I noticed that following a plea to all atheists to join the scientology plan for life that we weren’t getting posted.  jesus can only put up with so much, I suppose. 

Thank you, Mark Twain.

How the Hitchen’s are you, I figure this is a off topic testy to see if I can beat the crawler. 

Hitchen’s Hitchen’s

Hitch up those damn kilts and make a dash for the spider, god damn those heretics or just the heck with them anyway. 

How about some

Moth Balls

Lee,

“Religion Poisons Everything” and then they use a “web crawler/internet spider” to eliminate off topic comments.

Spider Chow

Hi Folks,

Some of the posts are coming out with text of post just the name of the poster, are you guys getting this or is it my computer or is Truthdig becoming Truthdog?

It is not just happening to the Hitchen Post but others as well

Moring cup of coffee and a trumpet

Jeff,

Some of my posts have come out like yours, your point is well taken, but not sure I agree.

Grapefrut, pepper salad with rasins, dates and nuts

Mike Mid-City,

Your apology is accepted and I offer you mine.
It takes two to argue. (At least let’s hope so.)
You are still as big a person as I first imagined.
Let’s agree to disagree and continue our thread
connection as amiably as possible.

Like the Amish say:

“Too soon we grow old, too late we grow smart.”

Thanks Mike, you’re a mensch!

I can not tell you how incredulous I am when I read that religion is evolving and the pope might come to see that women and homosexuals are indeed human beings, and jesus is just misunderstood and all that christians ever wanted was love and to be understood!

First, as Christopher Hitchens says without stuttering, religion poisons everything. 

Let’s first agree on a definition of christianity and god and the bible so that we are all on the same page.  The very least that should be said of a christian is that he ‘believes’ that jesus is the son of god and was sent here to absolve us of our sin to seek knowledge.  Are all you christians with me so far?  If not, do not read any further.  You are not a christian. 

Now the above assertion implies that you ‘believe’ in a god and his son.  You can not have jesus without his father.  Where did you ever hear of this jesus h crist?  The only source is the jewish/gentile bible.  No other historian was drugged up enough to writesuch fantastical stories.

Bear with me for a little longer.  This concludes that this bible is either the word of god or it is not.  Because we find much of it pure filth and nonsensical jibberish does not mean you get to pick the parts you like and don’t like.  I know you don’t want to own up to the bible as being written by the creator of your universe, but its your only source for knowing jesus and his father, god almighty.

Now add to this insult that you have not read the bible as a book and that you resent the fact that many non-believers such as myself have read it and you can see how incredulous I am with your view of jesus as your moral guide.

I can imagine that the criticism of the above road to logic and rational thought will be that I dare use the words of the very book you are betting eternity on.

There is ‘No’ jesus except the one in the bible and reconstucting jesus in your own image is unexceptable.  May I so humbly suggest that you abandon the bible and ‘that’ jesus and start all fresh with another super-human.  Give him a name that doesn’t come from the ‘good book.’  Give him your name perhaps.  You can’t hold a straw to the atrocities carried out by the former.

And Stay away from our children.  Their minds have enough to straighten out as it is.

How’s that for an atheist’s point of view?  Indeed.  Thank you Charles Bradlaugh.

Re:  #95455 by Hemi* on 8/16 at 10:49 am

Hemi:

Interesting.  I always thought the phrase meant “an unattainable prize”.  It seems that the proper definition is much more ominous.

Re:  Our discussion -  I think that regardless of the originality and practicality of the ideas, there is usually an opening to collect something useful.  Even the most mundane conversations can hold a gem of wisdom. 

Cheese soup (in one of those hollowed-out rye bread bowls)  - Michael

Michael,

Here we are fervently discussing pro/con Bible what ifs. At times I find myself distracted by the process and then the thoughts resurface that reform is slow, people like their comfort zones and I am not the first to have these thoughts. So, I’m thinking our discussion is very “pie in the sky”. Then I started thinking what does that phrase really mean, am I using it correctly?

I looked up the history of the phrase. It originated with the “Wobblies”, the Industrial Workers of the World organization from around 1905. (That sparked a few dim memories from high school history! And no, not the Class of ‘05!) The story is the labor group had a songbook of parodies of popular songs and hymns that were used in their rallies etc… At this same time the Salvation Army was actively trying to save the souls of unemployed laborers, most of whom were literally hungry. The laborers had the attitude of forget saving our souls, if you want to help us give us something to eat. The Salvationists were said to have been unwaveringly focused on the soul saving and promoting that the workers would get their rewards in heaven for having suffered on earth.
Following are partial lyrics to the “The Preacher and the Slave”, a parody of the Salvation Army hymn, In the Sweet Bye and Bye, where the phrase “pie in the sky” originated. The writer of the lyrics is recorded as IWW notable Joe Hill, a Swedish-born immigrant to the USA.
Long-haired preachers come out every night,
Try to tell you what’s wrong and what’s right;
But when asked how ‘bout something to eat
They will answer with voices so sweet:

CHORUS:
You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.

And so the meaning is:

“A promise of heaven, while continuing to suffer in this life.” – phrases.org.uk

Thanks to http://www.worldwidewords.org and http://www.phrases.org.uk as sources of this information.

I found this interesting in that the meaning intersects our discussion. (I had in mind that it meant something like “under optimum conditions”.) You and the others might have already known of this, I just thought it was an interesting bit to share.

Cheese Doodles

Re:  #95224 by Hemi* on 8/15 at 2:29 pm

“Yes, but [JF] gains cred… …based on unsound morals also contained in the scriptures.”

It’s sadly true that JF had a substantial following.  I furtively dream that there is a heaven and JF is met by St. Peter who has his arm around his (after)life partner, Liberace (who is gleefully playing a pleasant welcome-to-heaven melody).

Religious-America is in the midst of a painfully slow evolution towards respect, dignity and acceptance of other-than-white-Christian-heterosexual-non disabled-males.  I agree that the Bible has been used as a powerful tool to perpetuate intolerance.  The very same Bible, however, has been used to break down these barriers.
If history is an indicator, the church (Pope John Paul IV?) will eventually develop an enlightened understanding of the Golden Rule.  Females and homosexuals will share equal status with their hetero-male counterparts (I have a dream).

Who can argue?  There are a plethora of astute theologians and laypersons who wrestle with the controversial teachings of the Bible.  I lament that their voice is not more resonant.   

Green eggs and ham   - Michael

Re:  #95230 by Billy the Dik on 8/15 at 2:55 pm

Enthusiastically accepted.  I look forward to a dry pillow on which to lay my weary nugget tonight.

Sleepytime herbal tea   - Michael

Michael,

Re:

“I was obviously refering to sound morals, not some bullshit JF said.”

Yes, but he gains cred (not with us) because his bullshit is based on unsound morals also contained in the scriptures. He can quote scripture as backing and who can argue? You know what I mean. Why give the likes of him any basis?

Chilean Sea Bass

Mid Mike City,

You said many different things but this one calls me to question.

You stated:

“Every little biblical passage the is negative is held up to light and every positive passage dismissed out of hand.”

First of all I have no concept of sin, your opinion that the Atheists in this post are focusing on all the little biblical passages that are negative,  I hope does not hold water and is just frustration on your part. You have called attention to the positive and done which is and would quite fine. 

The concept of right from wrong, according to what?  The Bible, Law, you, me or Hemi.  We may not all agree on what is right. Now the bible,  I suppose provides some guidelines for people to work from.  Since the Aztecs ripped out some poor persons heart every day to make the sun, come up, this seems negative to me, especially if you are that person.  If the world was not flat maybe they could have got the message in Aztec land. I do not have extensive knowledge of the Aztecs, so I cannot provide any positive insight into their religion.

Michael seems correct (really tempted to give him a positive negative here, because he loves to do that to me?) at least I agree with his premise,  our western society has evolved around values from the J. Christian religions, but if you search further, they originally may have been plagiarized them from many other societies, and placed some in the bible. 

We seem to be stuck on the the Christian religion as a template for women abuse, and I would hope that someone could enlighten us to other religions too.

Mid Mike City,

My respect for you and your religion is not the same.  However I do respect your feelings about your religion.  In the past,  I have felt that you had the same respect and opinions about the Heathens and others on the thread, I believe it to still be true.

Tuna salad

Re: #95134 by Mike Mid-City on 8/15 at 9:57 am

Re:  Holding the church responsible

I don’t know if they are holding it responsible.  They illuminate the church’s indiscretions to bolster the “religion poisons everything” mantra.  This is fine for the first couple of exchanges, but it’s not very challenging and it really gets old after a while.  While history is important, I feel that an argument of present conditions is more relevant.

Re:  All of these fine folks have been convinced by life that there is no higher being then they themselves are.

To you, this is a stand-alone statement intended to elicit a certain response.  An atheist is going to simply shrug and say, “yeah?… and?” 

As for your skirmish with Hemi:  Although thick skin is required attire, you should still steer clear of certain taboo topics.  Words hurt - Evidenced by my tear-laden pillow on those lonely nights with a print-out of Billy’s comments clutched in my fist.  Take the high road.  I’ll take the low road.  And I’ll get to Doug’s house before ye.

Oatcakes and chutney   - Michael

Is it a bad beach day on the left coast?

Here we go,

“Every little biblical passage the is negative is held up to light and every positive passage dismissed out of hand.” MMC

The negative IS held up to light and why not? The positive is not dismissed, it is simply shown to exist and have existed before and apart from the Bible.

“Then mention the possibility of hell and they are like a bunch of little school girls.  Oh your mean, you shouldn’t bring someone’s wife into this.  We don’t believe in God but it’s just plain rude and mean.  Bull shit!” MMC

What are “little school girls” like? I didn’t say you were mean Mike. I said you were typically Christian. You said that you are plain rude and mean.

“Well Hemi brought up HIS WIFE and talked about her life in the church and her service to God and how they decided to get out of the church.” - MMC

Oh MOM!!! Hemi pinched me! Hmmm, I shouldn’t bring up my wife? You don’t bring up your wife? I barely scratched the surface of why and “How we decided”. Tell us all “How we decided”! You are carrying on your own conversation.

“If they were practicing, believing R.C.s then they themselves held this position.  But now Hemi has decided that he is the highest form of spirit in the universe the rest of the world is stupid.” - MMC

Held what position? Sorry Mike, despite what you think, this was and is our position. We believe(d) in many roads to God (and now a moral life). We see people in the light of their deeds not their beliefs. We discuss our beliefs (or non) openly. We look for the best in people. We try to help others in need. We keep our minds open to new ideas. Nothing has changed in our position aside from the invisible guy. Now I decided what? I described myself as the highest form of spirit? Where? When? The rest of the world is stupid? Where are you getting this? I don’t think my responses were that cryptic.

“Well girls, (excuses to She) there is a pony and this shit is the result.” MMC

Why apologize for any comment you make Mike? Is She your kind of non-believer?

PB&J

Re:  #95119 by Hemi* on 8/15 at 9:11 am

I was obviously refering to sound morals, not some bullshit JF said.  Picking on JF is like shooting fish in a barrel.  Come on, man (or other non-gender specific reference to the reader).

Blackened Salmon   - Michael

Re: #95081 by -Michael

“Having grown up in a Judea Christian society, I suggest that everyone in America has incorporated Christian morals.”

Agreed.

“I do not believe the homosexual community deserves minority status. One’s misbehavior does not qualify him or her for minority status. Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc. are God-ordained minorities who do indeed deserve minority status.” - Jerry Falwell in USA Today

Promoting homophobia and then blacks, Hispanics and women are “God-ordained” minorities? Where else could this bigot find his ammunition?

Fig Newtons (Strawberry too!)

•  Re:  #94989 by Hemi* on 8/14 at 9:30 pm

“This too proves the Bible confusing and worthless as a morality guide.”

This goes back to our ‘cherry-picking’ discussion. 
Having grown up in a Judea Christian society, I suggest that everyone in America has incorporated Christian morals.  Calling it worthless is throwing stones in one’s glass house.

Crab legs   - Michael

Re:  #94885 by Mike Mid-City on 8/14 at 12:33 pm
 
“There can be no reprieve for the church today for the sins of the church in the past.”

Why not?  To forgive is divine.
I fully accept Pope John Paul II’s apology for its past misogynistic misdeeds.  He couldn’t come to terms with all of the church’s anti-women transgressions, but… baby steps. 

Miso soup

Re:  #94858 by Leefeller on 8/14 at 10:51 am

“Misogyny is specific to the hatred of marriage”

Pardon my ignorance, but…  Huh?

Hummus   - Michael

Mike Mid-City,

“Well how would a wish you to hell bother someone who doesn’t believe in God or Heaven or Hell?

It doesn’t exist for you and it don’t matter right?” - MMC

Your wish does not bother me. Right you are sir.
You are catching on. I think you are actually
reading my responses. I can’t be certain.

“You brought your wife into it.” MMC

I always do. Great, you are reading my responses! She does the same for me. She is truly my “partner” in life. I am very fortunate to have a loving friend who keeps me grounded in a confusing sometimes hate filled world.

Chips and dip

Re: #94854 by -Michael “For every example of misogyny in the Bible, there is a lesson that contradicts this behavior.”

This too proves the Bible confusing and worthless as a morality guide. The same contradictory plots, people and actions exist in soap operas and they are merely entertainment. Let’s quote “All My Children” in every court house. We can be sworn in with one hand on the TV Guide. We can ask Susan Lucci to pose wearing a toga and blindfold while holding a sword and scale and we’re good to go. So help me Judge Judy!

Mini pretzels

For fun,

“tree fort.  “No Girls Allowed.” Surprised yee old memory is still working, Billy reminded me of when I was about 8 or 9 years old, we used to spend our summers in the Redwoods.  A few friends and I made a fort out of an old burned out redwood stump.  One of the first things we did was make a sign, “No Grills alowd”, needless to say we never had a BBQ.

Blather for Michael and

Fresh picked Strawberry’s

Re: #94960 by Billy the Dik

Thanks for that Billy. But as far as “I don’t see anything wrong with swipes at one’s man or womanhood” is concerned, speak for yourself. If I’m on the receiving end of one more swipe I’ll have an “innie”!

Coctail weenies

Re: #94918 by Mike Mid-City

“Your a trip Hemi.

And your forcing your wife into your trip to hell.

Enjoy.”

Mike, that typical Christian sentiment and response was not unexpected. There’s always that “you’ll go to hell” in the back of our minds. That’s a vile, human sentiment, I’m rather certain you’d agree, and would be very alien to an “all-powerful, all loving, all knowing, all forgiving creator”. (There’s another in that multitude of reasons.) We are both only human despite our differing beliefs. When I was confronted on my Christian beliefs in the past, I too easily lost sight of “judge not”, “turn the other cheek” and “blessed are the peacemakers”. It’s a tough row to hoe.

I think this is one of those times when we both should consider we have not walked in the other man’s moccasins. I wish for you only the best life possible following in the footsteps of Jesus. I responded to you truthfully. Sorry for goading you into an uncharacteristic response if in fact I did. I have an affinity for pissing contests.

By the way, I couldn’t force my wife to go anywhere.

Bread

Re: #94911 by Leefeller

Thank you Leefeller. I also enjoy learning from and about you and everyone here.

I admit that I could have responded to Mike in a more passive and less irritating manner or simply not responded. Perhaps Mike was questioning without want of an answer. The subject matter leads us time and again to poking a finger in each other’s chests. It’s apparently the nature of the beast or should I say beasts? I did however answer truthfully.

Coffee Coolata

Hemi,

Response to your last trip post. 

Must say, I feel both humbled and flattered to be aboard, riding the Hitchen post with you,  and of course all the rest of our motley crew.  Feel like I am on a space ship destenation unknown, comfortable just the same. 

Thanks all

French pressed java

Re: #94855 by Mike Mid-City

“Hemi,

I’m a trip?

You change your mind about being in a church based on a article about a self loathing suicidal clown who claims that Dr. M. L. King Jr. wasn’t a Christian.”

Yes, you’re a trip. Who said that was my reason? My mind was made up many months ago. A few of my numerous reasons have come out here in various discussions. The majority of my reasons you have not heard. That I am now off a corrupt preacher’s mailing list makes for one less source of irritation. I didn’t bother earlier thinking it better “the devil you know”. But on review (thanks to your questioning) it was simply irritating to read about the ongoing nonsense distracting my family, friends and neighbors from the inner workings of a cult. For clarity Mike, despite my distaste for my former place of worship, I think your situation is likely every bit as sincere and beneficial as you describe. You might ask then, why not simply go to another (non-corrupt) Church? That was considered, discussed and a number of those same reasons (you have not heard) answered that in the negative. I hope that clears things up, I’m not particularly fond of or influenced by Hitchens. I agree and disagree on various points.

Not that you asked but simply to show that I have done extensive research in making my decision, I would like to offer you a little more information. My wife is a near constant influence on my thinking and has been a great sounding board and confidant when it comes to theology. If I had to list authors/philosophers/theologians who have had some influence on my beliefs, they would be Hyam Maccoby (a British Jewish scholar), Robert Green Ingersoll (the Civil War veteran and orator), Julia Sweeney (former Catholic, comedienne, cancer survivor and author) and Joseph Campbell (Catholic raised, American mythology professor, writer, and orator). Julia Sweeney was a former cast member on Saturday Night Live. You might be familiar with Campbell from the PBS series: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth. In this very popular series Campbell was interviewed by Bill Moyers. There are likely others but these four come readily to mind.

Now how about you Mike? Why are you wasting your time on me? I don’t mind. I’m just curious as to why with all of the needy, humble, accepting people you run into, that would appreciate your time and attention, you devote even a little of your time to sparring (perhaps nit-picking) with a non-believer? Perhaps this is not a waste of your time and there’s something going on here that I don’t perceive. I can’t imagine that my participating and comments are a problem for you. Do you feel you have to challenge my non-belief? Your latest line of questioning seems more personal than the general discussions we have. Have I insulted you?

Green Tea

Misogyny is specific to the hatred of marriage, which may be a small part of what I was trying to discuss, y include both sexes male and female could hate marrage.

Re:  #94707 by Leefeller on 8/13 at 6:52 pm
It would be more honest to call it a mutually perpetuated blather-session.

Re:  “Since we are discussing religion here, I will not and refuse to comment on your reference to other parts of our society.”

I wasn’t aware that our topics were restricted.  Anyway, I didn’t think that my comment was overly tangential.  Misogyny has been going on since the birth of our species.  I simply pointed out that is not particularly fair to blame religion for misogynistic behavior when misogyny was destined to be part of our culture regardless.  Look at male dominant behavior in the animal kingdom.  It’s biological.  Thankfully our developing sense of reason, fairness, and fellowship has gradually reduced this tendency. 
As I’ve said, religion perpetuates misogyny.  It has retarded cultural evolution. 
However, you can also argue that religion is a catalyst for humans treating other humans with respect and dignity.  For every example of misogyny in the Bible, there is a lesson that contradicts this behavior. 

Wheat germ   - Michael

#94762 by Billy the Dik on 8/14 at 12:26 am

Very clever, Billy.  What you’ve done was to purposely underestimate the size of the tweezers required to extract my brain.  Through this cunning endeavor, you’ve implied that my brain is smaller than an average brain, and therefore probably less capable of cogent thought. 

As if this weren’t enough embarrassment for me, you then skillfully attached a jibe to the aforementioned tweezer slur which insulted my sense of humor.

Bravo, Billy.  You are one clever cookie.  Once again I bow to your immutable comedic sagacity.

Your humble tyro,

Michael

Question,

Is being a philanthropist only exclusive to religion,  can it include only money to good causes or can it mean help in other ways?

Hey Leefeller,

“we do have some Christian churches with female ministers and women higher up on the pecking order, stalwarts and exceptions like the Catholic Church and a few others seem to keep hanging onto the dark ages though.”

My wife was a musical, liturgical and eucharistic “minister” in the RC Church. So, cantor, scripture reader and dispenser of the “body and blood”. This is not a position the equivalent of a priest or a minister in other Christian Churches. It did incorporate not only women but also congregants in general into most parts of the Mass. There has been a lack of men entering the priesthood for decades. The laity and deacons now pick up the slack. The Vatican is not on board with the women serving though. Imagine that! During papal visits, the women disappear from the altars near his destinations.

Wine and wafers

Michael I would like to qualify by stating the history of religion was rampart and most of religion to day is rampart in it’s abuse of women. History of all religion’s , not just Christianity have shown a total disregard to the status of women, other than regrading women as subservient to men.  Rampart as I intended, means, men fortifying their own power and control, while treating women as sub human or not worthy of concern.  You may be correct stating rampart may be inappropriate regarding western societies of today for they have slowly removed the rampant making it more like a fence, Mid Mike City states we do have some Christian churches with female ministers and women higher up on the pecking order, stalwarts and exceptions like the Catholic Church and a few others seem to keep hanging onto the dark ages though. Since I like the word rampart, I must admit this does not mean it was the best choice of words to use in this context.

Since we are discussing religion here, I will not and refuse to comment on your reference to other parts of our society.

Your quantitative feeling of guilt was apparent, your blathering tirade following my question on the word Gentlemanly was quite amusing,  Your accusation of my blather is not founded since you exceeded the blather limits of good taste, you are the blather quota exceeder, quite good at blather as your are. 

Your defensive posture and response was totally unnecessary to my question. We had to endure your crass comment regarding your testes and the fact that you had been with or under someone with a PhD is irrelevant to the simple question I posed. 

Thanks for your interpretation of Latin 101, Billy may find it as amusing as I. 

As you blather I will have some blatherless
hot, homemade chicken soup

Oh and re: #94601 by Mike Mid-City

“And your trip is what Hemi?” - MMC

I don’t have a trip Mike but you are a trip!

Coffee to go

Re: #94601 by Mike Mid-City

“Hemi, you made the comment that your charitable donations were free of any religious test and open to all.” MMC

I had to answer in that way due to the tone of your original line of questioning.

That was:

“So what have all my atheist friends done this week to make this a better world for the poor non-believing people of the world?

I hear the crap talk about how fucked up everyone is who believes in a God is, I was just wondering what the fuck you all have been doing to make this atheist world a better place for the poor and oppressed.” MMC

You claim that this is an “atheist world”. I don’t accept that view. I contend that the people of this world continue to be mostly brainwashed and theist in nature. I think that atheists are a minority, perhaps growing in number but still a minority. I hoped to infer by my answer not that your Church discriminated but that my deeds did not.

“What I object to are the generalizations made.” MMC

Then Mike, why would you generalize and infer that anything good that non-believers do would only be for the benefit of “the poor non-believing people” in an “atheist world”? I’m surprised that you view the world in that way. How about this: What have you done to make this a better world for everyone?

“For ‘tis the sport to have the enginer
Hoist with his own petar; and ‘t shall go hard”
- from Hamlet by William Shakespeare

Me thinks someone pissed in thine oatmeal!

Coffee and donuts

#93785 by Leefeller on 8/10 at 3:54 pm

Leefeller:

I didn’t say that sexism was a perception; all ‘isms’ indicate some sort of action (Latin 101).  You (and Billy) would do well to take more time to comprehend what people are saying.  It seems that you skim the passage, glean key words, and suppose what I’ve said based on your oft incorrect assumptions.  Somehow, you have turned what I said 180 degrees.

I’ll restate:  where there is a question of offense, the intention of the accused does not absolve him from wrongdoing.  If it is perceived that the act was offensive, the perpetrator is indeed at fault. 

Enough of this foolishness.  Your original point, apparently, was that masculine dominance over women has been rampant in religion.

I’m not sure how I could have understood this by your comment, “ ‘Gentlemanly’ is that not sexism?”  (This is all that you wrote.) 

I’ll concur with your point, although it is rhetorical.  It implies that with out religion, rampant masculine dominance over women would not have manifested in other organizations.  I would argue that religion perpetuates this condition, though. 

Linguini with clam sauce (whole clams, not just the damn necks).  - Michael

Re:  #93764 by Billy the Dik on 8/10 at 1:59 pm (Amish school)

Billy:

I’m not sure how to address your comment.  You illustrate how misogyny is rampant in America.  I agree.  Where did I indicate otherwise? 

Secondly, your example struck me as rather odd.  I would have gone with a more obvious one, like sexist lyrics in popular culture.
  I think folks are desensitized to mass murders like these.  It is fairly common for a killer to prey on a specific sex.  It is inferred that the perpetrator has many issues, one of which being gender related.  But to take a deranged murderer, and suggest that his issues parallel society’s is a bit of a stretch (albeit true, to some extent). 

And as far as you’re accusation that I have testes (or an ovary) in my cranial cavity - I going to have to insist that you take this back and issue a pubic apology. 

Peace   - Michael

Re: #94396 by Mike Mid-City

“Hemi. You must have missed my earlier post.  We don’t pass out food based on faith although we do distribute at the church.” MMC

I saw the earlier post Mike. Look, you seem frustrated by our talking points here. That we kick around the theological crap here does not make us inhumane. Just skeptical to say the least. I can understand that you would like some proof that we are not simply haters. No matter what we say, or list for you, you will likely be unsatisfied. I for one don’t have a website with my life on display. I hope you will continue contributing on that basis.

Of course you distribute from the church, every organization needs a home base to work from. Yours, like most, has a thematic decor that imposes itself on those in attendance. So be it. I would not have any problem with money spent on AC. Money well spent if the people working, attending or being ministered to are made comfortable for even a short time. To do that in a centralized place where dozens if not hundreds can benefit, why not? Makes good sense to me. We don’t bitch that a school, restaurant or a movie theater has AC, do we? Maybe we should, that’s a story for another day.

Billy Graham Crackers

PS The mail went out!

Mike Mid-City,

I detect a littl perceived shot to the heart that my words have caused you?

When you asked what atheists had done to make a difference in the world today, well, I thought you wanted to know. 

I really don’t care if you and your church gave away 1/3 of all the money you took in the name of the lord.  I do not have to go to a web site to see your church.  I have a picture of it in my mind. 

Your good works trumph all non-believers works for sure.  There is no goodness to be garnered on this earth less it be through your god(s).

To assume that your church has to have 2/3 of the booty it takes in for overhead is way out of line?
god may be good, but he is damned well broke.

Remember, to argue with a fool like myself, will only drag you down to my level and beat you with experience.

If discourse can reduce a believer to defensive posture, what would you be like if you were once again in charge of our daily affairs?

We are only on this earth for a short time.  Will we ever get to the part that allows us to perceive reality as it is?  Or will we waste that precious little while with useless efforts to save imaginary souls.

Indeed, thank you Bertrand Russel.

Dear Mike Mid-City,

Regarding your question in post #94240:

“Hemi, why do you still belong to a church?”

Mike, your question has spurred me to action! The letter to remove us from the rolls has been written and will be mailed on my way to work Monday. There’s your answer Mike, I don’t anymore. Don’t you just love a long story made short? You are apparently doing God’s work. Thanks for the inspiration!

As far as

“So what have all my atheist friends done this week to make this a better world for the poor non-believing people of the world?” - MMC

Sorry Mike but the charity I serve and contribute money to (and have for years) does not discriminate on the basis of faith or non-faith. I just can’t answer in terms of pounds of fruit or loaves of bread. Thank you brother for your continued concern for “the poor non-believing people of the world”.

Bread and jam

Thanks for asking Mike Mid City,
While your church was providing 80,000 lbs of food this year, it was using 80,000 dollars to air condition that medieval monument to insanity called a church.  churches do some good sometimes.  Goodness, and christians do some good works.  My disdain for religion is not that some religious people do good, but left unchecked, they tend to want everyone not like them to go to hell or ‘believe’ in imaginary sentiments.

Your question as to my good works does challenge me and I have asked myself that question all my life. To say I have worked in soup kitchens, or coached youth baseball, or helped with cub scouts, or boys and girls clubs would seem a little embarrassing to me.  But I have done those minimal things.  I have served on the Save Darfur committee to try and stop the carnage in the Sudan.  I have tried to reinforce the feeling of humanity in my two sons who are now grown and lead enlightened lives as a musician and a certified public accountant.  By always loving their mother, I hope I have shown through actions how to treat the opposite sex. 

I am currently building geodesic domes for people who cannot afford conventional housing.  I hope to go to New Orleans in the next couple of weeks to offer a way to put some of those FEMA trailer victims in geodesic domes.

What I have asked myself, Is how can a man, of ordinary intelligence, very little money, and minimal education, effect this place we live in?
I have tried to make a difference.  That much is success.  I struggle to do some more of the things you so rightly pointed out.  I’m not through trying because I am still alive.  By the way keep up your good deeds, not because an imaginary person told you to do it, but because, like me, you are human.  love, rob

Heathen folks, Fence posters and believer (s)

Off topic or morning rant

When I go to other posts on TruthDig, I find a tattered feeling of emptiness.  My off the cuff opinions and comments on those posts, which are usually political, are very seldom commented on, not sure possibly I may not make sense or it could be I have a reputation hanging around the bad crowd, over here on the Hitchens post.  I must admit one time I called Chompers on his whining but I did not think it a big deal.  What I am saying is the other posts provide little pleasure or fun compared to this one.  Yes this is a special thread.

cyrena came over one time to check on off posting from a recommendation? She or he (I believe to be female)  may have had a problem with off postings at the time, or she said something to the effect.  It seemed like, Chomper’s mom was coming over to check on who he was playing with.  When I was browsing the other posts,  I found her an Chompers talking about people bashing others on the threads, they were unhappy with Sheer from Turthdig for some reason. 

You know I picture Chompers,  not yet fifteen, (as Billy suggested) a home schooled boy wonder and cyrena really is his mom!

Politics to me are as interesting as a pimple of Chompers arse, but I believe our rights, the people’s rights are being taken away. So I trudge on trying to make sense of nonsense.  But I figure my opinions, conjecture or unworthy comments as a Unyun given duty that must be done,  for the soft warm comfort of apathy is so easy to fall into.

Oh no we are out of
coffee

Billy the Dik,

Thanks for the mention of Howard Zinn’s: “A People’s History of the United States”. My son is off to college in two weeks and we’ve been discussing American history in general. In particular how we have been fed these sterilized concepts of history such as “Lincoln freed the slaves”, “Columbus discovered the New World”, “we had no warning that the Japanese would attack Pearl Harbor”, etc.

My son is very sharp and has a better bullshit defense system than I had at his age. I’m sure he will be able to navigate the various political leanings he will encounter. I think Zinn’s book might be a good thing for him to have along.

Pop Tarts

Hemi and Billy the dik,

I must say that with all the bull you guys talk, I am blown away with how articulate and thoughtful you guys can be!

In every life, there is hope.  When that is gone, there is death.  I have hope as long as we can start weaning our children off this nihilistic religious pacifier and teach enlightenment.  Dare I ask so much?  Dare I dream of a time when self abasement takes a back seat to reason?  Hell yes I can!

Thanks Leefeller, I get just the right take on a few of the threads. Regarding our Unbelievable thread though, keep in mind that I am a recovering Catholic so shoveling the crap is simply part of the natural process of uncovering myself. Sharing the wealth so to speak.

Rob that “slave mentality” concept hits a lot of nails on the head. Not only women fall prey to it. Our group has repeatedly questioned why highly educated, religious folks don’t see the wizard behind the curtain? I’ve had a little of this mentality in my own life and it is a reluctance to fight the establishment. We are reluctant to leave our comfort zones. It’s much easier to go with the flow than question everything around you and risk being ostracized. Peer pressure, brain washing, slave mentality and go with the flow.

The other part of this is that humans have this will to survive and so we make the best of what we are confronted with. Humans regularly carve out acceptable physical and intellectual niches in the presence of madness. We see children in news reports do this in war zones. It’s much easier to do in a peacetime suburb with all your support systems intact. Freethinking has yet to become main stream. It’s coming though!

Coke Slurpee = BRRRAINFREEZE!!!

Leefeller,

I might suggest one of the reason’s that women would be even remotely interested in religion.  It is a phenomenon I know called “slave mentality.”  When someone is taken at youth, and is taught to fear an imaginary god(s) and is indoctrinated into a belief system it tends to seem the thing to do.  When everyone you respect, as in your mother or father, tells you that you are second class and that your lot in life is to cower at a man’s feet, you acquire a slave mentality.  Some slaves after the civil war stayed with their masters because it was all they knew. 

You know a group that could not be made to have a slave mentality?  Why it was those pesky Indians.  When christians first arrived in this country, they tryed to make the Indians their slaves.  When you break an Indians spirit, they just die, or become drunks, or just die…Now we’re sorry we tried that with them, and there is considerable effort to send them FEMA trailers as a constellation prize.  Phamaldahede doesn’t seem to hurt their children as it does other folks.  god does work in marvelous ways, n’est pas?

Hemi and rest of you heathens

Hemi, Read one of your posts on an other thread, and forgot to mention to you that it was well done, did you get any replies? Want to thank you and Rob for the enlightenment here as well, kudos guys.  How come Atheists are the ones to shovel the Christens their own horse pucka.

As I read along in Hitchens book I find his references somewhat enlightening. He gives a quick reference to Paul, you filled in the gaps.  What of other religions?  Hindu’s in India, I suspect women cannot expect much more than what is offered by the Moslems.  Doug you were on the Hindu reincarnation wagon, what of women?

In all fairness to Hitchens, I will quote his well written line instead of attempting to cherry pick and feed it to you.  This quote is a handy synopses and states my feelings quite well and believe strikes a chord with our discussion on this thread.  Quite windy buy I feel well done. 
“Violent, Irrational, Intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children organized religion ought to have a great deal on its conscience.” 

This quote is prepping us for his followup on the The .Procalmation of the Apocalypse and the day of Judgment but sums up very nicely Religion as it has been and is today.

Even our western society still has the regressive qualities of religion dragging down women to a lower level. Progressive changes will always be slow, simply said; religion has no need of progressiveness, the flock would find rational thought and flee. 

It seems to me women have much more to loose under the stirrups of religion then men, but why is it, then women seem to hold on to believe more than men? This is only my opinion and I   may be off base on my observation. Some women have no choice, but when women have a choice are the numbers equal? 

Hitchens, did a nice job of instilling this topic in me mind and I appreciate his knowledge and ability to express himself well enough to call religion on it’s bogus bull.  Be interesting to see if the Catholic Church may have attempted to buy up all the copies of his book to keep them out off the streets, if so maybe we are alone?

Patty melt

Folks,

That we can interpret various Biblical passages in a manner more palatable to our “enlightened” sensitivities does not validate what many consider the essence of “truth” that appears in the testaments at various times. That there is what we might consider a universal truism in any historical account is merely the result of probability and chance. These same scraps, that are almost universally accepted, exist in the documents of many disparate cultures and also in documents and media we almost universally consider contemptuous and evil.

That a prophet, politician, tyrant, television network or newspaper can be correct on minutia does not validate the entire message. What are the chances of one account compiled of snippets from multiple disparate authors, by a 3rd century despot have of being the “Book of Universal Truth and Love”? Yes, we’ve all made our stances known.

Tapioca

Ladies and gentlemen,

Just a little more.

“It appears that America’s anti-Biblical feminist movement is at last dying, thank God, and is possibly being replaced by a Christ-centered men’s movement which may become the foundation for a desperately needed national spiritual awakening.” – Jerry Falwell on women’s rights

“There is a passage in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) where Jesus is reported as having insulted a woman. He referred to her as a dog, a sub-human. However, his treatment of the woman was apparently based on racist feelings, not on sexist beliefs. In Matthew 15:22-28 she was described as a Canaanite; Mark 7:25-30 identified her as Greek/Syrophenician. She had pleaded with Jesus to cure her daughter who was possessed by a demon. He first ignored her, but then explained that he was sent only to bring the Gospel to the Jews, not to the Gentiles such as she. Jesus cruelly replied to the desperate mother that it was not right for him “to take the children’s bread and to cast it to dogs.” i.e. it is not appropriate to take the Gospel, which was intended only for the Jews, and offer it to Gentiles as well—here described as sub-humans, as dogs. (Observant Jews in the 1st century CE often referred to Gentiles contemptuously as “dogs.”) She quipped back to Jesus that even the “dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Jesus relented and, from a distance, cured the daughter of demonic possession because of the mother’s faith.” - This selection taken from http://www.religioustolerance.org

Of course Jesus didn’t condemn the practice. He didn’t exist and this passage was written to sooth possible Jewish converts that the Gentiles weren’t such bad sorts as “dogs” go. In a back handed manner it also opened Christianity to Gentile converts who were accustomed to being considered “dogs” by the Jews. Jews had been persecuted at various times and treated other tribes subordinate to them in kind. This story was written for recruitment.

Notice it was not a man that Jesus called a “dog”. Thus male Gentiles, who were as sexist as Jews, would not be so insulted. Notice also he cured the girl by walking away with no mention of how that cure was manifest. The “miraculous” avoidance of tangible proof. An off hand, throwaway miracle. Ta da! The change effected in the daughter should be of particular importance to a story that is not simply a recruitment advertisement, don’t you think? Once again a woman, not so important. The Gospelers (Paulists) were not recruiting women.

Loaves and Fishies

Gentlemen and Ladies,

Like MMC, I too had misgivings regarding Paul and the “Paulist” traditions of the Church. I took it one step further in that I find Jesus does not exist as a historical figure prior to Paul. So, my contention is that Jesus is a compilation of various real and mythical figures rolled into one story by the very devious and evil Saul of Tarsus. Saul/Paul wanted to get even with the Jewish hierarchy that hired him to do their dirty work and then would not allow him to ascend to an equal status with the high priests. This was a hit man who suffered extreme guilt for his actions and then turned it around on the corrupt mob bosses that hired him. Yadda, yadda, yadda, you’ve heard my rant before.

The sexist traditions of the early Christian Church were reflections of the Jewish male dominated tradition. Paul tied his new religion, via prophetic manipulation, to historical Judaism to attract Jewish converts but it never worked, as we now know. That the Church was similar to historical Judaism in treatment of women is hardly surprising. Paul had a “problem” with women so why change what had come before? He was trying to attract men and the women were simply possessions that would follow. See also the “Twelve Apostles”, only men. Very few men of that era, including the mythical Jesus, were willing to consider women as equals. That some Christian sects today are moving away from that is only a result of societal evolution and not revelation. The body of Biblical quotes and later interpretations does not promote equality between the sexes.

“Woman is the gate of the devil, the road to iniquity, the sting of the scorpion, in a word, a dangerous species.” - St Jerome circa 400

(Apparently St Jerome considered women a separate species, like dogs, from men. Very interesting.)

“Woman is the daughter of falsehood, a sentinel of hell, the enemy of peace.” - St John Damascene circa 700

(By inference, Saint John had a low opinion of the “Virgin Mary”. Why is that? Could it be that the Church had not yet derived she was “blessed” by God? Their thinking had not “evolved” to that point.)

“Christ called as his Apostles only men. He did this in a totally free and sovereign way.” - Pope John Paul II

(Sovereign as in ruler as in my own papal infallibility. So, if I let women take on a more significant role in the Church, that would start unraveling the fabric of this myth I am charged with carrying into the future.)

“Please, my dear brothers, let your wives and sisters go to the voter registration process. Later, you can control who she votes for, but please, let her go.” - Hamid Karzai

(Obviously an attitude sprung from the Judaic roots of his faith.)

The above quotes gathered by Cliff Walker http://www.positiveatheism.org/
The comments are mine.

To be continued…