Fadel, our resident Zionist nutcases, Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach and lilmamzer have moved into a new post, “Hamas holds the high cards.”  You might want to check it out and, oh I don’t know, confront some of their propaganda with truth.  But then, I am beginning to think that Zionists think it unduly rude for anyone, especially a Palestinian like yourself, to confront their little minds with truth.

Eliyahu, a former Israeli chief rabbi, advocates carpet bombing Gaza, and says there is no moral prohibition against killing civilians to save Jews. To read the full story, go the Jerusalem Post @ http://www.jpost.com

Then, compare this to how a fanatic atheist Zionist in our own backyards sees the solution by advocating and instigating that Israel should nuke the whole Arab-Muslim world; just check some of these Fascist Zionist visions of “Lefty” on this by going to the comments of few days back on this thread.

Puting these two posiitions in comparative perspective, one can find that fanatic religious Jews are one degree milder than fanatic atheist Fascist Zionists, but obviously both are the product of a savage mentality and evil teachings!

In light of this, the question begging an answer is: How many good Jews are there to neutralize the danger to world peace posed by these two fanatic extreme groups? I personally don’t know, and thus would like any comforting statistics by any informed reader.

THE 1948 ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINE ILAN PAPPÉ

“This article, excerpted and adapted from the early chapters of a new book, emphasizes the systematic preparations that laid the ground for the expulsion of more than 750,000 Palestinians from what became Israel in 1948. While sketching the context and diplomatic and political developments of the period, the article highlights in particular a multi-year “Village Files” project (1940–47) involving the systematic compilation of maps and intelligence for each Arab village and the elaboration—under the direction of an inner “caucus” of fewer than a dozen men led by David Ben-Gurion—of a series of military plans culminating in Plan Dalet, according to which the 1948 war was fought. The article ends with a statement of one of the author’s underlying goals in writing the book: to make the case for a paradigm of ethnic cleansing to replace the paradigm of war as the basis for the scholarly research of, and the public debate about, 1948.

ON A COLD WEDNESDAY AFTERNOON, 10 March 1948, a group of eleven men, veteran Zionist leaders together with young military Jewish officers, put the final touches on a plan for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine1. That same evening, military orders were dispatched to units on the ground to prepare for the systematic expulsion of Palestinians from vast areas of the country2. The orders came with a detailed description of the methods to be used to forcibly evict the people: large-scale intimidation; laying siege to and bombarding villages and population centers; setting fire to homes, properties, and goods; expelling residents; demolishing homes; and, finally, planting mines in the rubble to prevent the expelled inhabitants from returning. Each unit was issued its own list of villages and neighborhoods to target in keeping with the master plan. Code-named Plan D (Dalet in Hebrew), this was the fourth and final version of vaguer plans outlining the fate that was in store for the native population of Palestine3. The previous three plans had articulated only obscurely how the Zionist leadership intended to deal with the presence of so many Palestinians on the land the Jewish national movement wanted for itself. This fourth and last blueprint spelled it out clearly and unambiguously: the Palestinians had to go.

The plan, which covered both the rural and urban areas of Palestine, was the inevitable result both of Zionism’s ideological drive for an exclusively Jewish presence in Palestine and a response to developments on the ground following the British decision in February 1947 to end its Mandate over the country and turn the problem over to the United Nations. Clashes with local Palestinian militias, especially after the UN partition resolution of November 1947, provided the perfect context and pretext for implementing the ideological vision of an ethnically cleansed Palestine.

Once the plan was finalized, it took six months to complete the mission. When it was over, more than half of Palestine’s native population, over 750,000 people, had been uprooted, 531 villages had been destroyed, and 11 urban neighborhoods had been emptied of their inhabitants. The plan decided upon on 10 March 1948, and above all its systematic implementation in the following months, was a clear case of what is now known as an ethnic cleansing operation.”
—————————————————————————

Here is the link to Ilan Pappe’s article “The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine”:

http://71.18.226.238/final/en/journals/printer.php?aid=7175

Fadel, Thank you for your kind words.  While I am sure most of our resident Zionists would cite your being Palestinian as somehow discrediting what you have to say, we both know the reverse is true.  Frankly, there have been far too few Palestinian voices heard over the American airwaves, especially these past six years. 

The reference to Muhammed Declan was made by Ali Abunimah during a June 15, 2007 broadcast on Democracy Now.  According to Mr. Abunimah, Mr. Declan and other Fatah commanders have been receiving weapons from Egypt, with the transfer facilitated by Israel.  Recently, Israel has turned down several resupply requests because some of the Fatah commanders are so corrupt, they had been selling the weapons to the highest bidders.  During the broadcast, both Mr. Abunimah and Laila El-Haddad referred to these Fatah units as “death squads,” and Mr. Abunimah compares them to the Contras who had mercilessly attacked soft civilian targets during the Reagan administration’s not so covert effort to effectuate regime change in Nicaragua in the 1980s—Elliot Abrams.

Fadel, if there is any insight you could add to our understanding of the current clash between Fatah and Hamas, I am sure most Truthdiggers would appreciate it.

To Tony Wicher:

“Yes, ITW sounds like a humane and progressive individual who just can’t quite get his head out of the Zionist box. Perhaps we can yet manage to straighten him out.”
========
I have been reading with great interest, admiration and love all the sound and reasonable arguments you posted lately, especially in response to ITW. I concur with your words above, but instead of “perhaps we can yet manage to straighten him out”, I would say, “I hope you manage to help him find his real soul which is buried under a thick layer of fog due to insecurity and confusion. I, as a real Palestinian, would like to assure him that, if after real and sincere efforts at ending the conflict are under way, he will find me fighting on the side of the Jews against this Palestinian minority that might still be advocating the wishful thinking of “throwing the Jews in the sea.” The Jews, but not the Zealot Zionists, are there to stay. I will be honored and pleased to share with my good cousins this beautiful and Holy Land of God; neither the Jews nor the Arab-Muslims are this land’s owners; all are just transient inhabitants of the land.

To Ernest Canning:

Thank you for all the wonderful effort you put in educating the participants on this thread. In one of your latest comments you alluded to this character called “Muhammad Dahlan.” This evil character is a disgrace for all Palestinians and Muslims, since he is dishonoring the name of “Muhammad” given to him mistakenly at birth. Dahlan is the henchman of both Israel and U.S. neocon governments. He has sold his soul and people to the highest bidder, and who can be a higher bidder than Israel and the Bush administration?! Believe me! When I first saw the face of this man surface in the political life of Palestine, some gut feeling made me very uncomfortable about this evil traitor. This is exactly the same feeling I had when I first saw Bush’s face and heard his speech as the Republican front runner for the presidency in 2000. Though psychology is not my field of education and specialty, I think that I am a natural psychologist who is capable of recognizing evil when he first sees the face of one, even at a distance.

Re #78598 by Ernest Canning on 6/16 at 2:32 pm

Ernest,

Yes, ITW sounds like a humane and progressive individual who just can’t quite get his head out of the Zionist box. Perhaps we can yet manage to straighten him out.

Tony, excellent post.  It is not possible to “equate” your principled opposition to Zionist, ethnic cleansing to “driving the Jews out of Israel.”  ITW and the other Zionist posters are thus forced to “conflate” these two very different positions.

The difference I see between ITW and some of the other mindless Zionist posters, however, is that I sense he is conflicted between his intellectual ability to consider the evidence that all is not well on the Zionist front and the emotional pull of Zionism’s blinding ideology.  His responses to my posts, and most recently to yours, suggest that so far, his emotionalism has prevailed over his ability to reason.  This explains his effort to avoid the powerful facts contained in Robert’s video through the less-than-intellectually-honest dismissal of the documentary as “propaganda” followed by flight from this site altogether when your comments struck at the very core of his emotionally charged, Zionist beliefs.

I don’t know whether he will ever read the comments you and I posted since his parting remarks, but if he does, I hope he will come to understand that you and I had made a sincere effort to reach out to his better self.

#78505 by Inherit The Wind on 6/16 at 4:17 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“TW,
I’m disappointed in you.”
==================================================
Well, ITW, I hope you have a meditative vacation. Perhaps you will reach an epiphany and change your mind. I myself have not much to do on this quiet Saturday afternoon, so I am going to spend a little time to address some of your charges. You may never read my replies, but maybe somebody else will.
—————————————————————————
“I guess we’re back to you and your buddies “knowing” that everything Jews do, especially Israelis, is automatically evil, and nothing the wonderful, peaceful Arabs do ever is, and is always justified.”
—————————————————————————-
ITW, Will you please tell me where I or anyone else on this thread, even the most pro-Palestinian, has said this? Apparently you are willing to say anything, no matter how wildly ridiculous. You should be ashamed. Can’t you try to exercise a little restraint, a little scholarly integrity? How can we possibly have a constructive discussion this way?

I believe the point that I and “my buddies” on this thread all agree on is that the Zionist project, the idea of a “Jewish state” is inconsistent with univeral principles of democracy and human rights. It is not morally sustainable. It has led those who have adopted this ideology to commit crimes against humanity. Those crimes are ongoing, and they will not stop so long as the principle of having a “Jewish state” in Palestine remains the fundamental policy of the Israeli government.
—————————————————————————
“Like the 19 assholes who took over 4 airlines on 9/11 and killed nearly 3,000 people.  I guess they were justified, too, and it’s just another piece of Israeli propaganda.  Like the crap put up on Al Jazeera that it was really the Jews who were behind it and all of them were notified to get out of the WTC that day? (death lists prove that wrong).”
——————————————————————————-
ITW,

Nobody here has brought 9-11 up that I know of. I certainly haven’t. I have never been a 9-ll conspiracy theorist. I have always thought bin Laden is a real Arab/Muslim militant, and a brilliant, ruthless strategist, perhaps the equal of Ben Gurion. Both regard mass murder as an acceptable means of acheiving their glorious goals. Bin Laden has apparently run circles around the moronic Bush administration; as of this writing he is free as a bird and winning on all fronts. But I think this is only possible because he has help. As there is a synergy between Nazism and Zionism, so there is also a synergy between Muslim extremism and Western Imperialism. The imperialists in the Bush administration have never been interested in catching bin Laden. He is far, far more useful as a bogeyman to justify an endless “Global War on Terror”.

Re #78505 by Inherit The Wind on 6/16 at 4:17 am
Continued from above)

“I cannot believe that people with brains can watch the Palestinians slaughtering each other and STILL blame all their atrocities and problems on ... those evil Jews, oops “Zionists” (chortle).”
—————————————————————————
ITW,

“Jew” is one thing; “Zionist” is another. I know this is hard for you, but please try to understand. A Zionist is a Jew who believes in a Jewish state. A hundred and twenty years ago there were no such Jews. I am hoping that in another twenty years the great majority of Jews will have given up on this terrible idea. When Zionism is gone from the Earth, there will still be millions of Jews, and I wish them all happiness and long life, wherever they live.
—————————————————————————
“I don’t object to legitimate criticism of Israel, and there sure is plenty they deserve, but the clear-cut anti-semitism “the answer to all our problems is to drive all the Jews out of Israel” is garbage.  It’s not fair to Israelis, and it’s not fair to Palestinians either because it replaces reality and real solutions with ideal fantasies.”
—————————————————————————-
ITW,

I do not believe that one single poster on this thread has advocated “driving all the Jews out of Israel”. What has been advocated is an end to Zionist policies and a righting of the wrongs that have been committed because of these policies. In my view the only way this can be done is by a process of reunification that will correct a partition that should never have ocurred, where all people residing in the country will be equal and where those who have suffered because of the immoral Zionist policies are as far as possible made whole. This is not at all the same thing as “driving the Jews out of Israel”. I don’t know why you insist on equating them.

Robert, Fisk’s article exposes the sham in the corporatocracy’s claims that all it seeks is to “spread democracy.”  Whether we are talking about Palestine or Venezuela, the process is always the same.  Regimes, no matter how undemocratic, will be labeled as “democratic” so long as they are willing to be pliant cogs in the neoliberal “new world order.”  As Fisk has noted elsewhere, America favors democracy only when it advances its interests.  When a people select a leader, like a Massadegh in Iran (1953) or Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, who seek to advance the interest of their own people rather than the corporate bottom line, these leaders are demonized as empire’s covert dimension springs into action, seeking ways to destabilize and overthrow the democratically elected regimes.  It is for this reason that it matters not if Hamas makes genuine overtures for lasting peace with Israel.  It will never be accepted as “legitimate” by the corporatocracy.

The Wages of Corruption and Occupation

Welcome to “Palestine”

By Robert Fisk

June 16/17, 2007

“Who can we negotiate with? To whom do we talk? Well of course, we should have talked to Hamas months ago. But we didn’t like the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people. They were supposed to have voted for Fatah and its corrupt leadership. But they voted for Hamas, which declines to recognize Israel or abide by the totally discredited Oslo agreement.

No one asked - on our side - which particular Israel Hamas was supposed to recognize. The Israel of 1948? The Israel of the post-1967 borders? The Israel which builds - and goes on to build - vast settlements for Jews and Jews only on Arab land, gobbling up even more of the 22 per cent of “Palestine” still left to negotiate over?”

Here is the link to Robert Fisk’s article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk06162007.html

Crocodile Tears

The Gaza Cage

By Uri Avnery

June 16/17, 2007

“WHAT HAPPENS when one and a half million human beings are imprisoned in a tiny, arid-territory, cut off from their compatriots and from any contact with the outside world, starved by economic blockade and unable to feed their families?”

Here is the link to Uri Avnery’s article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery06162007.html

ITW, conflating disagreement with your take on the conflict into an anti-Semitic desire to “drive all the Jews out of Israel” is an act of intellectual dishonesty.  Not one of the critics of Zionism on this post has suggested that Jews should be driven out of Israel.  When I first entered the dialogue between you and Tony Wicher, suggesting that UN Resolution 242 and a two-state solution had a better prospect of success than his proposed one-state solution, Tony responded:  “Whatever brings peace.”

Not that it makes any difference, by I am personally the product of mixed parentage.  My father was British.  My mother was a Russian Jew.  My Jewish friends tell me that if my mother is Jewish, that makes me Jewish, to which I usually respond, “What does that make my father?  Chopped liver?” 

My father was tortured by the Japanese in 1942.  My parents met in a Japanese internment camp in Shanghai during World War II.  I, myself, am a Vietnam vet.  My personal and familial experience with war has led to a committment to peaceful resolutions of conflicts.

I regard myself not as Jewish, Christian or of any other religious affiliation but instead consider myself a secular humanist.  I have no interest in religion beyond a personal committment to the First Amendment guarantee that each individual has a right to believe or not to believe as he or she sees fit.

I see you as an individual caught between a principled recognition that much of what has been done in the name of the state of Israel by its “leaders” (just as much of what has been done in the name of the US by its so-called “leaders”) is morally reprehensible and the sway of years of Zionist propaganda that prevent a more fundamental recognition that it is the very continuance of the “occupation” that lies at the core of endless conflict. 

I sincerely hope that you (1) have a nice vacation and (2) return with a willingness to enter an honest, self-critical dialogue from which all of us can learn from one-another.

Ernest Canning…you are more than welcomed. I don’t know you in person, but your comments tell a lot about you as a person and what you stand for. You are one of those Americans who does NOT just sit on the sidelines and does NOTHING.

I too watch Amy Goodman on “Democracynow”. I think she has integrity & she is a very competent professional & has all the ingredients for humanity.

Ernest…I don’t know if you watched the debate between former Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben Ami and Norman Finkelstein.

In Case that you haven’t, here is the link to this very informative & important debates on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.

“Fmr. Israeli Foreign Minister Shlomo Ben Ami Debates Outspoken Professor Norman Finkelstein on Israel, the Palestinians, and the Peace Process (02/14/2006).”

Here is the link:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/14/1518230

Tony and Robert:  I thank you again for your always insightful comments.

Getting back to how corporate media can distort what we see and hear, we have the immediate coverage of the clash between Hamas and Fatah.  Today, on Democracy Now, Ali Abunimah, founder of electronic intifada, presented a view that you have not and will not read in the corporate press.

“Since January 2006 when Hamas won the legislative election…, the United States refused the election results and has been arming several Palestinian militias, particularly those controlled by Gaza warlord, Mohammed Declan.”  Abunimah compared Declan’s death squads to the Contras and noted that “the architect of this policy is none other than Elliott Abrams…who was convicted for lying to Congress in the Iran-Contra scandal.”

Abunimah contends this is part of a larger U.S. strategy of installing puppet regimes throughout the region to “fight proxy wars…against this phantom enemy of an Islamic caliphate that George Bush and his friends have dreamed up.  And everywhere it’s failing.  In Afghanistan the Taliban are resurgent.  [In] Iraq…the US can’t even trust the Iraqi militias and the Iraqi army that it set up….And now we see the US-backed Palestinian Contras being routed in Gaza.”

Abunimah, who like Tony advocates a one-state solution, suggests that the Israeli policy of trying to isolate Palestinians in separate ghettos is failing; that “Palestinians are the majority population in Israeli-ruled territory between Jordan and the Mediterranian Sea.  And it’s only a matter of time before the world wakes up to this reality.”

“When Killings Don’t Count”

“A Week of Israeli Restraint”

By Tanya Reinhart

6/22/2006

“In Israeli discourse, Israel is always the side exercising restraint in its conflict with the Palestinians….”

“During the week of Israeli restraint, the army killed a Palestinian family who went on a picnic on the Beit Lahya beach in the Gaza Strip; after that, the army killed nine people in order to liquidate a Katyusha rocket.

But in the discourse of restraint, the first killing does not count, because the army denied its involvement, and the second was deemed a necessary act of self-defense.”

Here is the link to Tanya Reinhart’s article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/reinhart06222006.html

Re #78457 by Ernest Canning on 6/15 at 8:54 pm
(332 comments total)

“I would not have had a problem if ITW had merely advanced the conventional view as to the immediate cause of the six day war.  My problem is that he used this difference as an “excuse” to dismiss the entirety of a documentary as “propaganda.” 

I agree with you on that point. That’s why I also thought ITW’s response was uncalled for.

ITW may believe that Israel would withdraw from the occupied territories if its “right to exist” were recognized. I doubt this, since there is ample evidence that Zionists have always planned on conquering all of Palestine and have never been serious about a Palestinian state.

Billy, most of the targets in the six day war were military.

TW.  You are partially correct in asserting that the American corporate media portrayed the six-day war as a pre-emptive strike launched because Arab forces, especially Egypt’s were massing at the border.  Actually, some of the initial reporting erroneously suggested that that Syria and Egypt had struck first.  (But then, I was in the U.S. military at the time, and the reporting we received was subject to a greater level of censorship). 

This video touched upon that issue.  It involves the fact that planning for this pre-emptive strike had been going on for quite some time within the Israeli military, and, as the video notes, the principle reservations pertained to how the Johnson administration would react.  If you accept the notion that Pearl Harbor was a defensive strike, then perhaps you can accept the six day war as a defensive strike.  I, for one, don’t buy it.

Surprise as well air superiority had a great deal to do with the lopsided level of Israeli success in the six-day war, just as it explained the lopsided results at Pearl Harbor.  In 1973 the suprise was on the part of the Arab states which launched the Yom Kippur war suddenly and without provocation.  It produced results that were very different from those that occurred in 1967.

I would not have had a problem if ITW had merely advanced the conventional view as to the immediate cause of the six day war.  My problem is that he used this difference as an “excuse” to dismiss the entirety of a documentary as “propaganda.  Actually, Robert’s video contains one of the most powerful “factual” statements as to the moral depravity that is the occupation. 

In short, ITW used this classic historical dispute as a means by which he could simply change the subject—a tactic that is, quite frankly, intellectually dishonest.

Finally, many of our resident Zionist posters keep repeating the mantra that “land-for-peace” won’t work because all Arabs must be regarded as “murderous thugs” bent on the destruction of the state of Israel.  Odd, I seem to recall that in the one instance in which Israel gave back conquered lands (Sinai), it led to a treaty and normal diplomatic relations with Egypt which has held to this day.  Are we to believe that there is some fundamental difference between Egyptians and Palestinians that would facilitate peace and security in the first instance, yet result in a supposed Israeli suicide in the other?  Or is the continued violence simply a reflection of an oppressed people striking out against their continued subjugation?

Re #78260 by Ernest Canning on 6/15 at 7:04 am
(329 comments total)

TW—You mistake vigorous disagreement with anger.  Have you watched Robert’s video?  If so, do you agree with ITW that it is propaganda?
———————————————————————-
Ernest,

Yes, I had watched it before, but ITW’s response threw me off and I had to watch it again. The video begins with the occupation. It does not go into the war or the events preceding it. So I thought ITW’s response was off target. As a description of the occupation itself, it looks perfectly reasonable to me. It is true that there is an Arab version of events which tells a different story, and I have never been inclined to believe it. It does sound like propaganda to me as ITW says.

Since neither you nor the video were asserting the Arab version of events, I don’t see what ITW is objecting to. Perhaps it is that we don’t see the context; that the occupation was the result of Arab aggression.

You say that the official version of the 67 war is propaanda. What then is your version?

TW—You mistake vigorous disagreement with anger.  Have you watched Robert’s video?  If so, do you agree with ITW that it is propaganda?

Gaza’s Reality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhOa5hv3zas&eurl;=

Story of student from Gaza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Vu7WjxPAyY&mode=related&search;=

Ooops…Please disregard my comment #78229. That was supposed to go to another comment/response.

My sincere apologies.

(continued from previous comment)

We stayed there for about 9 weeks. My family and I made a commitment to tell the truth about what we saw, witnessed and experienced from our trip to the Holy Land. So there you go…just wanted to share that with you. It may help to understand where my drive for the TRUTH on this topic comes from.

I am NOT anti-Jewish. I am anti-Zionism, Israel’s RACISM/APARTHEID policies that the Israeli government and its brutal IDF have gruesomely enforced on the Palestinians for decades.

It is fortunate that the are many JEWS who are for TRUTH, peace, moral justice and against the many horrible crimes committed by Zionists against the Palestinians from the 1940’s to this date.

I have high respect for Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Sara Roy, Tanya Rheinhart, Amira Haas, Uri Avnary, Gideon Levi, Nurit-Peled Elhanan and many other Jews who are on the side of TRUTH, moral justice, peace, human rights, international law, UN Resolutions.

They are NOT on the side of the brutal / racist zionism of Ariel Sharon, Menachem Begin, Izthak Shamir, Ben Netanyahu, Ehud Olmert, Israeli military generals, Israel’s brutal IDF and the fanatic zionist zealots.

I would like to ask/request for you to read an article by Dr. Nurit-Peled Elhan, an Israeli professor. This compassionate Jewish mother writes about the children of the Israelis & the Palestinians…the victims of this tragic conflict.
————————————————————————

“We Are All Victims of the Occupation”

Let Our Children Live

By Nuri Peled-Elhanan 01/29/2007

Here is the link to this outstanding article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/peled01292007.html

A Grave Injustice at DePaul University

Why I Plan to Boycott the Catholic Church

By Bill Christison

Former CIA Analyst, 6/13/2007

“If anyone reading this thinks I am overreacting, that is unfortunate. The Israel lobby simply should not be allowed to win this round. There is little doubt that some will argue that the Catholic hierarchy in Rome had nothing to do with the decision against Finkelstein. But there is also little doubt that the hierarchy can overrule that decision if it wishes. And it says something that, to me, is utterly despicable if the hierarchy of the church refuses to overrule its own underlings at DePaul.”

Here is the link for the rest of this article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/christison06132007.html

June 12, 2007

Prof. Norman Finkelstein reflects on DePaul university’s decision to deny him tenure and the 40 year old Israeli occupation.

Here is the link for an 8:48 minutes audio (Chicago Public radio) of Prof. Finkelstein. He is truly a man of great courage & integrity. He is NOT going to budge a fraction of an inch from what he believes in…the TRUTH.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1083

ON ITS 40TH ANNIVERSARY OF THE JUNE 1967 ARAB-ISRAELI WAR…

Norman Finkelstein on Chicago Public radio:

June 6, 2007

“Norman Finkelstein: In order to understand the build up to the war the best place to begin is November, 1966. There was an Israeli retaliatory, as they call it, attack on a Jordanian village called Samu. In the course of the attack on Samu they blew up 125 buildings and killed a large number of Jordanian soldiers.

When that attack happened the Jordanians and also the Syrians began to attack Nasser for not coming to their defense. Here was this Egyptian president claiming to be the leader of Arab nationalism and Pan-Arabism and impotence in the face of Israeli aggression.”

Here is the link for the transcript-or- audio of Norman Finkelstein’s interview on the 40th anniversary of the 1967 Arab-Israeli war:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1067

#77937 by Inherit The Wind on 6/14 at 7:10 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Ernest Canning on 6/13 at 9:30 pm
(322 comments total)

“Actually, I started by providing a fact: The film begins by OMITTING that in 1967, Israel was facing massing armies on her borders, that had the stated intention of obliterating her.” 

OK, I did watch this film before. It starts with the occupation, not with the war. ITW’s description of the war could be true, and it would not make the film false. Arabs obviously have their own version of how the war began. I will have to consult scholarly sources I consider reliable.

As to the accuracy of the film, it agrees with everything I know about the occupation.

Re #77959 by Lefty on 6/14 at 8:15 am
(259 comments total)

“Greetings Tony, I love you and appreciate your being a WARRIOR FOR PEACE AND JUSTIC [sic][emphasis added] for the Palestinians. . . .
===================================================
Fadel, in addition to all of the other pejorative things I’ve said about you, in case I left it out, YOU’RE ALSO AN IDIOT! “

——————————————————————————-
Lefty,

You have got to be getting desperate when you are reduced to criticizing someone for a typo. You’re starting to like Fadel. Admit it.

Re #78170 by Ernest Canning on 6/14 at 7:47 pm
(323 comments total)

I remember the 67 war as reported in U.S. newspapers and it was reported there as ITW describes it. I took it at face value at the time. Could you and ITW have a learned discussion about this without getting angry, not as people on opposite sides, but as two friends together seeking the truth? I’d be interested. Please give sources. Meanwhile I will go and watch Robert’s video.

ITW:  I don’t want to burst your bubble but the tale that Arab armies were gathering, getting ready to strike, so Israel struck pre-emptively is a piece of propaganda that ranks up there with Bush’s claim that we had no choice but to invade Iraq before the smoking WMD gun became a mushroom cloud.

#78100 by Tony Wicher on 6/14 at 4:21 pm
(105 comments total)

“I see this as a pathological condition requiring compassion and therapy which attempts to remove the scales from their eyes. Condemning them as human beings serves no good purpose; it merely deepens their conviction that they are right and you are the enemy.”
=================
Tony: Thanks for your elaboration; I concur with your suggested ideal approach to dealing with the people in question.

As a man of peace and reason, my love and respect for you is increasing! Please keep up the good and noble work! And may your approach bear fruits, especially with this character who calls himself “Lefty.”

Fadel, in #77856, writes:

“My point is that ideologies do not exist in a vaccum; they are created by men with souls and flesh; they are implemented by men with souls and flesh; and they are sustained by men with souls and flesh. Ideologies based on theory and thought do not kill others, dispossess them, steal their land and cause any harm by themelseves, but followers of these idelogies do. So by necessity, if you condemn Zionism, you must condemn Zionists.This is like saying that guns don’t kill by themselves, it’s people with guns and intent who do killing. You cannot take the gun or the gun manufacturer to court, but you can take the owner of the gun who used it to kill.”
——————————————————————-
Fadel,

I think everybody starts out believing whatever their parents told them when they were young and trusting children. These beliefs determine how most people see the world for the rest of their lives; they fit their experiences into these early belief systems, so that the belief systems themselves rarely change. Some people do transcend these beliefs, but most do not. Zionists, for example, were educated as children to believe that Zionism is noble, that the founders of Israel were heros, etc. Their parents tell them nothing about the Nakba or Palestinian suffering. When they grow up, they have a blind spot. Given the distorted way they see the world, their responses are understandable. They may be perfectly good people of conscience outside of this one area. I see this as a pathological condition requiring compassion and therapy which attempts to remove the scales from their eyes. Condemning them as human beings serves no good purpose; it merely deepens their conviction that they are right and you are the enemy.

Re #77862 by Robert on 6/13 at 10:34 pm

Thanks, Robert. That’s a great post.

Comment #77628 by “lefty” on 6/13 at 9:39 am

“Lefty=ephraim pesach”...keeps throwing at us what Nelson Mandela said about Israel…Well…here is a response that might be of interest to ALL on board here & everywhere:

=====================================================

A LETTER FROM NELSON MANDELA TO THOMAS FRIEDMAN

MARCH 30, 2001

TO: THOMAS FRIEDMAN (columnist New York Times)

FROM: NELSON MANDELA (former President South Africa)

“Thomas, if you follow the polls in Israel for the last 30 or 40 years, you clearly find vulgar racism that includes a third of the population who openly declare themselves to be racist. This racism is of nature of “I hate Arabs” and “I wish Arabs would be dead”. If you also follow the judicial system in Israel you will see there is discrimination against Palestinians, and if you further consider the 1967 occupied territories you will find there are two judicial systems in operation that represent two different approaches to human life: one for Palestinian life and the other for Jewish life. Additionally there are two approaches to property and to land. Palestinian property is not recognized as private property because it can be confiscated.

As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called “Palestinian autonomous areas” are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.

The Palestinian state cannot be the by-product of the Jewish state, just in order to keep the Jewish purity of Israel. Israel’s racial discrimination is daily life of most Palestinians. Since Israel is a Jewish state, Israeli Jews are able to accrue special rights which non-Jews cannot do. Palestinian Arabs have no place in a “Jewish” state.

Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.

The responses made by South Africa to human rights abuses emanating from the removal policies and apartheid policies respectively, shed light on what Israeli society must necessarily go through before one can speak of a just and lasting peace in the Middle East and an end to its apartheid policies.

Thomas, I’m not abandoning Mideast diplomacy. But I’m not going to indulge you the way your supporters do. If you want peace for democracy, I will support you. If you want formal apartheid, we will not support you. If you want to support racial discrimination and ethnic cleansing, we will oppose you.
When you figure out what you’re about, give me a call.”

Now for the the rest of the STORY…here is the link:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/arjan28.html

#77846 by Tony Wicher on 6/13 at 9:13 pm
(103 comments total)

I am not condemning Zionists but Zionism, the ideology, the project of a Jewish state in Palestine. I think it is and always was essentially pernicious. I am not attacking any person; you will notice that I do not engage in personal invective.
====================
Greetings Tony, I love you and appreciate your being a warrior for peace and justic for the Palestinians. However, I beg to disagree with you on this point. My point is that ideologies do not exist in a vaccum; they are created by men with souls and flesh; they are implemented by men with souls and flesh; and they are sustained by men with souls and flesh. Ideologies based on theory and thought do not kill others, dispossess them, steal their land and cause any harm by themelseves, but followers of these idelogies do. So by necessity, if you condemn Zionism, you must condemn Zionists.This is like saying that guns don’t kill by themselves, it’s people with guns and intent who do killing. You cannot take the gun or the gun manufacturer to court, but you can take the owner of the gun who used it to kill.

ITW—Your effort to dismiss this documentary as propaganda reminds me of the effort by Rumsfeld et al to dismiss as propaganda the live al Jazeera TV broadcasts during the seige of Falluja—as if the photographic images, instead of the Rumsfeldian Newspeak were the lie.

Facts, ITW!  You’ve provided nary a one!

Tony Wicher, I wholeheartedly agree that Zionism is a pernicious, racist ideology that has led its adherents to commit crimes against humanity.  My statement was limited to a very narrow issue—the 1941 effort by a tiny faction of the Zionist movement to strike an accord with Adolf Hitler.  Setting aside questions of ideology, that effort was a despicable act that all—including the Zionists posting on the site, should condemn.  My only point is that we should avoid anything that resembles “guilt by association” that might be misconstrued as an effort to lay this despicable act on the doorstep of all Zionists.

Re #77780 by Ernest Canning on 6/13 at 5:44 pm
(319 comments total)

“However, I think it no more appropriate to condemn all Zionists for Stern’s despicable attempt at a Zionist/Nazi alliance then it would be to condemn all Catholics because the current Pope was once a member of the Hitler Youth.”

I am not condemning Zionists but Zionism, the ideology, the project of a Jewish state in Palestine. I think it is and always was essentially pernicious. I am not attacking any person; you will notice that I do not engage in personal invective.

Tony Wicher:  The quote you provided of the effort by Avraham Stern of the “National Military Organization” to enter a pact with Hitler so as to further his twisted, Zionist goals is one of the more disturbing that I have ever read, especially when it was by then, 1941, obvious that the Nazi goals were genocidal.

However, I think it no more appropriate to condemn all Zionists for Stern’s despicable attempt at a Zionist/Nazi alliance then it would be to condemn all Catholics because the current Pope was once a member of the Hitler Youth.

The real criticism of present-day Zionists lies in the fact that they have become so blinded by their ideology that they resemble the mindless Party members in George Orwell’s “1984” who would daily participate in a ritual of hate.  These people have no interest in any facts that do not fit their preconceived notions of what this conflict is all about.

Take, for example, my effort to reach out to ITW by suggesting that he actually watch the marvelously factual one hour, 9 minute documentary which Robert linked to in comment #76638 and to then return so that we could entertain an honest, intellectual discussion.  I was not at all surprised that my olive branch triggered a spiteful response from our resident Zionist sociopath, Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach, who simply called me “scum.”  But I actually thought there was a prospect that ITW and perhaps Charles Barton would rise to the challenge.

Boy was I wrong!  Their subsequent posts reveal that they have no interest in acquiring the knowledge that the Robert-linked video offers.  They have no interest in honest intellectual discussion—a point underscored by their repetition of Zionist propaganda about the supposed strength of Palestinian armaments. 

I don’t want to sound as if I am belittling the Palestinian armed resistance, but the fact is that their puny collection of arms has about as much chance of succeeding against the IDF as a minnow would have if it sought to attack a great white shark.

While I would never down play civilian casualties on either side, our resident Zionist propagandists chose to ignore the vast disparity where far more Palestinian civilians have been killed by the IDF as compared to Israeli civilians killed by the Palestinian armed resistance, and most deaths, on either side, have occurred “within” the occupied territories.  But, of course, since the Orwellian U.S. press does not cover the death of Palestinian children, yet plays to the hilt the death of even a single Israeli child, the picture is skewed.

Since we are worrying about who is getting blamed, here is my idea of the order of blame. The original sin belongs to the Roman Catholic Church (later continued by Protestant churches) which for millenia taught that “the Jews killed Jesus”. This is the origen of anti-Semitism as I understand it. This led to widespread persecution and scapegoating of Jews. Anti-Semitism, then, is about 2000 years old. Modern Zionism as the project for a Jewish state arose in the 19th century as a reaction to anti-Semitism. The basic idea was that Jews are persecuted everywhere, so they must have a state of their own to be safe. The idea to found such a state in Palestine was born out of anti-Semitism. The right response to anti-Semitism is to oppose it by strengthening democracy. The movement to establish a Jewish state in Palestine, on the other hand, is the wrong response because it does not oppose anti-Semitism; in fact, it benefits from it. I do believe wise rabbis have understood this about Zionism from the beginning. Perhaps under difficult circumstances the Jewish people will listen to them again before it is too late.

“#77349 by Inherit The Wind on 6/12 at 10:38 am
(Unregistered commenter)”

“And you want Israel to open its doors and lay down its defenses and trust THESE maniacs with their childrens’ lives? You go first and we’ll see if YOU survive!

TW, you missed my point: The Palestinians would MURDER any Gandhi or Mandella who appeared, and do it summarily, then get back to their internecine gang war.”
—————————————————————————-
You must think I’m really naive not to know this. I know very well that peacemakers everywhere are in danger of martyrdom, because they are not on anyone’s “side” and fanatics from every side hate them and consider them traitors. But you once again make the mistake of confusing the leadership with the people, both on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side, and you tar all Palestinians with the same brush.

Re #77628 by Lefty on 6/13 at 5:39 pm
(240 comments total)

Lets try this again:

“I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel, within secure borders.” — Nelson Mandela
—————————————————————————
Lefty,

If a two-state solution is assumed, this statement of Manela is perfectly reasonable. Under the one democratic state solution that I propose, however, Israel does not have to withdraw from anywhere, Israel’s existence within secure borders from the river to the sea would be recognized by the world community. But only if it becomes a real democracy and includes the Palestinians. In which case, of course, it will no longer be “Israel” as we know it. It will be something much better. But first the Jewish people must repudiate Zionism.

Re #77564 by Inherit The Wind on 6/13 at 11:52 am

Here is another clip from the Liebermann article on jewsagainstzionism which shows the synergy between Nazism and Zionism in concrete form. 

“In early January 1941 a small but important Zionist organization submitted a formal proposal to German diplomats in Beirut for a military-political alliance with wartime Germany. The offer was made by the radical underground “Fighters for the Freedom of Israel”, better known as the Lehi or Stern Gang. Its leader, Avraham Stern, had recently broken with the radical nationalist “National Military Organization” (Irgun Zvai Leumi - Etzel) over the group’s attitude toward Britain, which had effectively banned further Jewish settlement of Palestine. Stern regarded Britain as the main enemy of Zionism.

This remarkable proposal “for the solution of the Jewish question in Europe and the active participation on the NMO [Lehi] in the war on the side of Germany” is worth quoting at some length:

“The NMO which is very familiar with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its officials towards Zionist activities within Germany and the Zionist emigration program takes the view that: 1.Common interests can exist between a European New Order based on the German concept and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as embodied by the NMO. 2.Cooperation is possible between the New Germany and a renewed, folkish-national Jewry. 3.The establishment of the Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, and bound by treaty, with the German Reich, would be in the interest of maintaining and strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East.

“On the basis of these considerations, and upon the condition that the German Reich government recognize the national aspirations of the Israel Freedom Movement mentioned above, the NMO in Palestine offers to actively take part in the war on the side of Germany.

“This offer by the NMO could include military, political and informational activity within Palestine and, after certain organizational measures, outside as well. Along with this the “Jewish” men of Europe would be militarily trained and organized in military units under the leadership and command of the NMO. They would take part in combat operations for the purpose of conquering Palestine, should such a front be formed.

The Seventh Million

“The indirect participation of the Israel Freedom Movement in the New Order of Europe, already in the preparatory stage, combined with a positive-radical solution of the European-Jewish problem on the basis of the national aspirations of the Jewish people mentioned above, would greatly strengthen the moral foundation of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.

“The cooperation of the Israel Freedom Movement would also be consistent with a recent speech by the German Reich Chancellor, in which Hitler stressed that he would utilize any combination and coalition in order to isolate and defeat England”.

(Original documentin German Auswertiges Amt Archiv, Bestand 47-59, E224152 and E234155-58. Complete original text published in: David Yisraeli, The Palestinian Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Israel: 1947) pp. 315-317).

#77564 by Inherit The Wind on 6/13 at 11:52 am

“I stand by my original statement.  Neither Jews in general nor Zionists in particular are responsible for the Holocaust. It is morally reprehensible to blame the victims and inferentially excuse the Nazis, which of course, is what you are both doing.”
—————————————————————————-
IHW

I am not excusing or justifying Nazis, and I don’t believe Teitelbaum is either. I am saying that both Nazis and Zionists are racists, and that both are to blame. Zionist racism is the compliment of anti-Semitism, of Nazi racism. Zionism and Nazism together have a synergy which produces effects greater than either by itself. Zionism exacerbates anti-Semitism all over the world, and this does force Jews who lived peacefully in their own countries for generations to migrate to Israel, which is what Zionists want.

Here is another clip from the Jews against Zionism site. These statements ring true to me.

THE ROLE OF ZIONISM IN THE HOLOCAUST
Article by Rabbi Gedalya Liebermann - Australia

From its’ inception, many rabbis warned of the potential dangers of Zionism and openly declared that all Jews loyal to G-d should stay away from it like one would from fire. They made their opinions clear to their congregants and to the general public. Their message was that Zionism is a chauvinistic racist phenomenon which has absolutely naught to do with Judaism. They publicly expressed that Zionism would definitely be detrimental to the well being of Jews and Gentiles and that its effects on the Jewish religion would be nothing other than destructive. Further, it would taint the reputation of Jewry as a whole and would cause utter confusion in the Jewish and non-Jewish communities. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is not a race or a nationality. That was and still remains the consensus amongst the rabbis…
All of the leading Jewish religious authorities of that era predicted great hardship to befall humanity generally and the Jewish People particularly, as a result of Zionism. To be a Jew means that either one is born to a Jewish mother or converts to the religion with the condition that he or she make no reservations with regard to Jewish Law. Unfortunately there are many Jews who have no inkling whatsoever as to the duties of a Jew. Many of them are not to blame, for in many cases they lacked a Jewish education and upbringing. But there are those who deliberately distort the teachings of our tradition to suit their personal needs. It is self understood that not just anyone has the right or the ability to make a decision regarding the philosophy or law of a religion. Especially matters in which that person has no qualification. It follows then that those individuals who “decided” that Judaism is a nationality are to be ignored and even criticized. It is no secret that the founders of Zionism had never studied Jewish Law nor did they express interest in our holy tradition. They openly defied Rabbinical authority and self-appointed themselves as leaders of the Jewish “nation”. In Jewish history, actions like those have always spelled disaster. To be a Jew and show open defiance of authority or to introduce “amendment” or “innovation” without first consulting with those officially appointed as Jewish spiritual leaders is the ideal equation to equal catastrophe. One can not just decide to “modernize” ancient traditions or regulations. The spiritual leaders of contemporary Judaism better known as Orthodox rabbis have received ordination to judge and interpret matters pertaining to the Jewish faith. These rabbis have received their rights and responsibilities and form a link in the unbroken chain of the Jewish tradition dating all the way back to Moses who received the Torah from Almighty G-d Himself. It was these very rabbis who, at the time of the formation of the Zionist movement, foresaw the pernicious outcome that was without a doubt lined up…

To all those who know nothing about my faith, would they kindly refrain from lecturing me about it!

It seems to me that the zionists in their wishful fantasies want to believe that we -the Muslim women- suffer from degradation.

The only degradation I see is that when the criminals, oppressors, occupiers (men and women) fail to see the degradation they are doing to themselves, to their souls and to their humanity, by their sadistic barbaric and cruel actions.

When their sick minds see nothing wrong with nuking and annihilating others just because they are not “chosen”

When they shamelessly advocate for another holocaust, thinking that it’s quite acceptable and even desirable as long as it’s done against the none-chosen ones.

THIS IS THE REAL DEGRADATION

Only for those interested, this is what the Qur’an says about women:

“O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know each other. Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (one who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)” (Qur’an 49:13)

“O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, Who created you from a single soul, created, of like nature, its mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women-reverence God, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for God ever watches over you” (Qur’an 4:1)

“It is He Who created you from a single soul and made its mate of like nature, in order that he might dwell with her in love”… (Qur’an 7:189)

“Never will I suffer to be lost the work of any of you, be he/she male or female: you are members one of another…” If any do deeds of righteousness, be they male or female, and have faith, they will enter paradise and not the least injustice will be done to them” (Qur’an 4:124)

“Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has Faith, verily, to him will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions”. (16-97)

“The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey God and His Messenger. On them will God pour His mercy: for God is Exalted in power, Wise”. (9:71)

“If any do deeds of righteousness, be they male or female - and have faith, they will enter Heaven, and not the least injustice will be done to them”. (3-124)

“Then shall anyone who has done an atom’s weight of good, see it! And anyone who has done an atom’s weight of evil, shall see it”. (99:7-8)

“And among His Signs is this: He created for you soul-mates from among yourselves that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He plants love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect. (30-21)

“Glory be to Him Who created all the pairs: of what the earth produces, as well as their own (human) kind and (other) things of which they have no knowledge of”. (36; 36)

“For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God’s praise; for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward”. (33:35)

and Some of Muhammad’s sayings:

“Women are but shaqa’iq (twin halves or sisters) of men”

“I commend you to be good to women”

“Heaven lies at the feet of mothers”

“The best of you are the kindest to their wives”

“Seeking knowledge is mandatory for every Muslim male and female”

About anti-Semitism

Enough is enough

People talk with liberty about Muslim extremists, and Christian fundamentalists; but they stop short of uttering the forbidden word “Jewish extremists”

read the reast here:

http://www.ichblog.eu/content/view/1190/58/

London demo:

http://www.ichblog.eu/content/view/1647/58/

Israel, ‘Zionist ghetto’ not state‎
Sat, 09 Jun 2007 08:50:36
Israel’s former parliament speaker Avraham Burg has branded Israel as a ‘Zionist ghetto’ in ‎his newly-published book , scoffing at the regime’s self-definition as a Jewish state.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=12519§ionid=351020202

In an interview published in Ha’aretz daily on Friday, Avraham Burg said that this self-definition is the key to the regime’s ruin.

“It [Israel] can’t work anymore. It’s explosive. It’s dynamite.” said Burg, parliamentary speaker from 1999 to 2003.

Burg has newly written a book, Defeating Hitler in which Ha’aretz says he describes Israel as a “Zionist ghetto” and compares Israeli behavior in the occupied Palestinian territories against Palestinians to that of Nazi Germany.

Also a former chairman of the semi-governmental Jewish Agency responsible for immigration to Israel, Burg took issue with the law of return, under which any Jew is able to come to live in the occupied lands.

“The law of return is the mirror image of Hitler. I don’t want Hitler to define my identity,” he said.

A former activist in the anti-settlement Peace Now movement, Burg is today a businessman who considers Israeli society paranoid and comparable to pre-Nazi Germany.

Burg slammed Israel for construction of a separation wall in the West Bank, saying, “The separation fence is a fence against paranoia ... There is something so xenophobic about it. So insane,” he said.

He also criticized targeted assassinations carried out by the Israeli army against Palestinian resistance fighters, comparing them to murder.

Jewish Protests Against The Occupation

Jews around the world defy the Zionist governement’s demand for blind support, step out of their homes today to say NO! We won’t keep quiet! We reject Israel’s brutal violations of Human Rights and International Law. Reports from NYC, London, Sydney, Montreal, Toronto, Paris, Boston, Edinburgh, Berne
oznik-news
11 Dec. 2000

We held banners (in the rain!) in berkeley and oakland (california) during morning and evening rush hour at major intersections (on monday), with slogans like JEWS FOR JUSTICE SAY STOP AID TO ISRAEL, JEWS FOR JUSTICE CALL FOR PROTECTION FOR PALESTINIANS, JEWS FOR JUSTICE SAY END THE OCCUPATION!
in solidarity—
penny rosenwasser, Middle East Children’s Alliance

read article:

http://www.oznik.com/news/001211.html

Re #77349 by Inherit The Wind on 6/12 at 10:38 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“Teitelbaum is an criminally idiotic and morally bankrupt.  Jews weren’t responsible for the Holocaust and anyone who says they were, like Teitelbaum, is scum.”

But that isn’t what Teitelbaum says. He precisely does NOT say that “Jews were responsible for the Holocaust”. What he does say is that ZIONISTS were responsible for the Holocaust. According to him, Jews were their innocent victims. I know you are having a hard time distinguishing Jews from Zionists in your own mind, because Zionists have done everything possible to identify them, but the fact is that they are completely different things. To me Zionists are apostate Jews who have substituted this secular nationalism for their former religion, and they are misleading Jewish people into an untenable situation which will ultimately result in their destruction, unless they repudiate Zionism. Rabbi Teitelbaum understands this, and so do many other rabbis.

The Rot of Occupation

40 BAD YEARS

By Uri Avnery

6/11/2007

“IT CANNOT be denied: 40 years of occupation have changed the state of Israel beyond recognition.

That is obvious in all spheres of life. All of them have been contaminated.

18-year old youngsters, most of who have been brought up by decent parents as moral human beings, are drafted into the army, enter the brutal subculture of their units and receive an indoctrination that justifies every act of brutality against Arabs. Only a few rare individuals are able to withstand the pressure. After three years, the majority leave the army as tough men with blunted sensibilities. The brutality in our streets, the routine killings around the discotheques, the proliferation of rape and violence within the family - all these have undoubtedly been influenced by the day-to-day reality of the occupation. After all, it’s the same people who are doing it.

A policeman who is sent to Hebron and the Hawara checkpoint, who treats the inhabitants there as inferior creatures, who acts sadistically or condones the sadism of his comrades - will return into a different person when he returns the next day to Tel Aviv, Haifa or Shefa-Amr? Will he wake up the next morning, miraculously, as a devoted servant of his fellow-citizens in a democratic society?

For years now, the security services, the police and the army have been lying about events in the occupied territories. Lying has become routine. Few journalists in the world now accept these statements unquestioningly. And when lying becomes norm in one sector, the mendacity doesn’t stop there. The liars of the army, the police and the other services have gotten used to lying about other matters, too.

In the “territories”, corruption has a ball. Military government officers take off their uniforms and get involve in shady businesses. Capitalist barons also profit from connections with them. Of course, this is not the only source of the corruption that has become a bane of the state, but it is surely a contributing factor.

THE OCCUPATION causes rot, which penetrates all the pores of the national organism.”

Here is the link for the rest of Uri Avnery’s article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery06112007.html

Billy…I think that “looney/lefty=ephraim” is low on his sedative/depression pills. He just woke up from a deep delusional sleeping period.

I must say that he is trying to “post” something new on this forum, but so far I have NOT SEEN a “ball of fire”. Its the ...SOS!

One can see that loves & craves attention. He is trying to win some form of recognition for wanting to NUKE the Arab population from the face of this earth.

One really wonders about his insane and hysterical behavior. “Loonie/lefty” is dead serious with his wishes to cause a mass killing.

What form of “terrorism” teaching, brainwashing & massive infection did this disturbed “looney zionist” receive & where?

“Looney/lefty”...that BABOON is perched on your abscessed pus filled skull. You are looking pretty bad in that lonely manure filled stall.

THEY NEED YOU IN ISRAEL. YOU MOTIVES & YOUR ZIONIST GARBAGE RESEMBLE THE ISRAELI ASSASSIN…BARUCH GOLDSTEIN. HE MASSACRED MORE THAN 2 DOZEN PALESTINIANS WHILE THEY WERE PRAYING IN THEIR MOSQUE.

“LOONIE/LEFTY” IS DOING OUR HARD WORK FOR US. HE IS SHOWING US WHAT A REAL ZIONIST BELIEVES IN…PURE RACISM & HATRED!

I DON’T THINK THAT YOU KNOW ANY BETTER…LOONEY/LEFTY. A BABOON WITH 2 WEEKS OF TRAINING HAS MORE COMMON SENSE & HUMANITY THAN YOU OR WILL EVER HAVE!

Let me ask you, Charles Barton, if the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto had the rockets and weaponry you describe, would you have critized them for using those weapons against the Nazis? 

The words “terrorist” and “terrorism” are Orwellian as is the so-called “war on terror.”  The tactic which governments describe as “terrorism” is, in fact, the tactic that weaker foes in a conflict must resort to.  It is also known as guerilla warfare. 

During World War II, the Nazis used a word to describe the resistance movements throughout occupied Europe.  They called them “terrorists.”  Franco’s fascists used the same word to describe the remnants of the Republican forces which had taken to the hills in southern Spain after the end of the civil war.  No doubt the British forces in the American Revolutionary War would have regarded the irregular forces, Minute Men, who picked them off from hidden positions as “terrorists.”  When I served in Vietnam, most often it would have been suicide for the VC or NVA to attack head on, so they resorted to planting mines; placing pungee stakes in hidden pits; firing rockets at our APCs from hidden positions; lobbing a few mortars at our base camps in the dead of night, then fleeing so they could live to fight another day.  While I lost some close friends to these tactics, I don’t condemn them from using it.  What other choice did they have?

So the Palestinians possess a few rockets with which to strike back.  Israel possesses the world’s fourth most powerful military.  In just the past six months Israel has not only unleashed terror from above on the hapless Palestinians of Gaza and the West Bank.  Israel assaulted neiboring Lebanon with massive numbers of cluster bombs.  Israel’s use of collective punishment against the civilian populations of Palestine and Lebanon amount to war crimes under the principles of both the UN and Nuremberg Charter.

But then the continued occupation is itself a violation of UN Resolution 242 passed in the aftermath of the 6-day war.  It never ceases to amaze me how people can demand that countries like Iran and Iraq comply with UN Resolutions on pain of a threatened US invasion, yet Israel has wilfully violated the Charter and Resolutions over the past 40 years and all we can hear from apologists, like yourself, is how bad these Palestinian “terrorists” are.

Does that mean I approve of either suicide bombers or the launching of rockets?  No! Of course not.  I long ago posted that violence is self-defeating and that those who resort to it become what they despise.  Indeed, there is a sad and twisted irony in this mess.  The Zionists have become so consumed with their hatred of the objectified “other” that the children and granchildren of the oppressed in the Warsaw ghetto have become the oppressor—and that, my friend, is a real human tragedy, not only for Palestinians but for Israelis and, indeed, the rest of the world which has been dragged into this endless quagmire—all to allow the persistence of an occupation which by law should have ended in 1967.

P.S., Just a suggestion, but I think you would do well to proof read before posting.

re comment #77349 by Inherit the Wind.  I would agree that “Jews weren’t responsible for the Holocaust.”  I would not suggest, as you do, that anyone who suggests otherwise is “scum.”  I suspect that such individuals would run the gammut from neo-Nazis to the utterly uninformed. I will not label as “scum” those who are merely ignorant.

My problem with you, and your fellow Zionists, is that you refuse to recognize the extent to which the roles have been reversed.  As I posted elsewhere, I believe that present-day Gaza bears a striking resemblance to the Warsaw Ghetto, complete with a walled in and increasingly desparate multitude.  The only thing missing is for someone in the Zionist camp to begin proposing a “final solution,” though your pal, Ephraim “Lefty” Pesach came close to it in suggesting that Palestinians do not have a right to live.  If my assessment is accurate, while I personally detest violence and feel it is self-defeating, I would question whether I would have any more right to criticize Palestinians for taking up armed resistance than I would have had to criticize the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto for their armed resistance to the Nazis.

The problem I have with a number of posters on both sides, but especially those eminating from lilmamzer and “lefty,” is that they are only willing to focus on acts of the other side.  They never recognize the humanity of the other or the disparate impact of this brutal 40 year occupation.

I am writing this post to you, not to lilmamzer and “lefty,” because I sense in you a spark of humanity, which, quite frankly, I hope to ignite.  I would ask that you take the time to watch the 1 hr. 9 min. documentary video which Robert linked to in comment #76638. 

When I was in college, my professors often noted that when you undertake a subject you would otherwise be disinclined to accept, receive it with a sympathetic mind so as to understand first what an author has to say.  If you reject a topic as out of hand before you have thoroughly explored it, you will never gain an understanding.

I would ask that you use a sympathetic approach in watching the video.  If after doing so, you have substantive criticism (as opposed to name-calling rejection) as to why the documentary’s central thesis regarding the occupation is wrong, I would be delighted to consider it, and I am sure many of the other posters, e.g. Peter RV, Robert, Tony Wicher, would welcome this as well.

Comment #77335 by Billy TD on 6/12

Billy…your short and precise comment to “looney/lefty” is to the damn point. ONLY a truly sick & a beyond help infected “jackass” would post such vile. After all…let us consider the SOURCE!

Looney/lefty truly needs to shut the hell up & join his IDF humanity department. HE FITS THEIR STANDARDS & QUALIFICATIONS! KILL ARABS/PALESTINIANS AND CRY ANTI-SEMITISM!

Comment #77311 by Peter RV on 6/12 at 8:06 am

PRV…your assessment of our peace loving/nuke advocates zionists on this forum is correct.

THESE ZEALOTS ARE NO STRANGERS TO EACH OTHER. THEY ALL SOUND AS “ONE”...DEPENDING ON THE “ORCHESTRATED PLAN” OF THE MOMENT AND/OR DAY.

ITW & Barton…are just frothing and moaning at the mouth. They have NO substance at all.

I think ITW needs to join his pal “looney/lefty=ephraim” psyche ward. No one in his/her NORMAL state of mind would make or advocate what “stenchy/lefty’s” posted. NOTICE that ITW is staying low & not even making a sound about it. He is SILENT! Just imagine if someone posted a comment to nuke Israel/Jews/zionists…what would ITW say? Would he remain “SILENT” as he is doing right now…in regards to his “dear” pal ‘looney/lefty’?

Who knows, maybe ITW shares and advocates the same message and/or agenda of the abscessed pus filled skull of…looney/lefty=ephraim ?

re #77254 by Inherit The Wind on 6/12 at 4:26 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“I would love to see a Mandela or Gandhi emerge, with strength, dignity, moral force—and a bullet-proof vest.  The Palestinians need one—and the Israelis would do well with one too.”

IHW,

Now you are talking my language. The Palestinians, the Israelis and also the Americans need leaders genuinely committed to peace and democracy above and beyond all else. Then there will be peace and democracy. It’s that simple. What the people have now are are gangs of phonies and liars dragging them into endless war. All three peoples have had lies and hate dinned into their ears for generations and that is why they have such leaders. 

On the relationship of Judaism to modern Zionism, you can argue with Grand Rebbe Joel Teitelbaum:

“Six million Jews were killed as a result of the Zionists”

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/vayoelmoshe1.cfm#6Million

Comments #77297, #77296. #77295 by Nahida on 6/12

Nahida,

Your comments are really powerful. Israel’s brutal IDF using Palestinians civilians & children as “NUMAN SHIELDS” on “youtube” videos.

Those IDF killers are armed to their teeth, but they are still using children as human Shields? Wow…what a gruesome killing machine!

I am sure that we are only seeing a fraction of a percent of what really goes on over there.

Imagine if these videos were seen by a large portion of the American people…I think that it will start an outrage by people who stand up & believe in fairness, TRUTH, justice.

JUST THINK WHAT ISRAEL’S IDF ARE USING TO KILL PALESTINIAN CHILDREN AND UNARMED INNOCENT CIVILIANS? THEY ARE USING OUR AMERICAN MADE WEAPONS THAT ARE GIVEN TO ISRAEL…FOR FREE…AT NO COST TO THE ISRAELIS!

LOOK AT THE COSTS THAT PALESTINIANS AND THEIR CHILDREN HAVE TO PAY? THEY ARE PAYING WITH THEIR LIVES!

To all terrorist zionists (here and elsewhere):

If you could only learn one simple fact from your existence on this planet, you would’ve achieved something:

“As you sow you shall reap”

Israeli Soldiers using Palestinians as Human Shields

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjEd4hJNVCE&mode=related&search;=

Video Israel Doesn’t Want You to See

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0&eurl;=

Israeli troops shoot Hebron family - 05 June 07

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_CRzdlA5To&eurl;=

Comment #77253 by Peter RV

PRV…our hysterical ranting zionists on this forum have been screaming & flailing at us with all sorts of racist names, racist labels & racist attacks. Their trails of their racist agenda are well documented in practically all their posts.

Apparently to these zionists bigots’ logic, it is quite appropriate & acceptable to label anyone who criticizes Israel & zionism’s ideolodies as Arabs, Moslems, Islamists, Jihadists…and other racist names.

TO THESE PEOPLE…THESE LABELS/NAMES ARE “NOT” RACIST. THEY DON’T BELONG IN THE SAME CATEGORY AS “ANTI-SEMITIC”.

Isn’t calling someone an “ARAB” or a “MOSLEM” or a “Jihadist” in a derogatory way the SAME AS THE “N” word? Isn’t that RACISM and BIGOTRY?

So why is it acceptable for zionists/Israelis and others to use these derogatory names and/or racist labels and apparently its ok for them to use in their every day conversations, talk shows, internet forums and so on…?

Why is it NOT ok to use the same as above on Israelis, Jews…etc…? Why is ITW screaming on this forum & keeps sarcastically hinting directly and indirectly about “anti-semitism?

Why “DOESN’T” ITW hold the same “logic/standards” when his zionist pals spew their labels/names, such as, Arabs, Moslems, Jihadists…etc… on us? Isn’t that RACISM & fits in the same definition category as ...anti-semitic and the “N” word?

Why is ITW SILENT when the worst form of RACISM is being used by his zionist pals on this forum?

Can ITW see further than his zionist ideology’s circle allows him to see? Where is the application & LOGIC?

Gaza air strikes footage - 17 May 07:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLUfUvciSbQ&eurl;=

but “peaceful” zionist, ( jewish terrorist) lefty is not happy still, he wants to nuke Gaza and the rest of the Arab world!!

Burning Conscience: Israeli Soldiers Speak Out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37MFa7ZKQWo&mode=related&search;=

#77225 by Tony Wicher:
Amen, sister. In the face of the incredibly onerous Israeli oppression, do you think it is possible for Palestinians to unite around a leadership comnmitted to democracy and nonviolence? Can your people elevate from among themselves a Mandela, a Gandhi?

Amen, Amen, Amen.

Here’s what happened in Gaza today:
—————————
Ismail Haniyeh unscathed in RPG attack
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
GAZA CITY, June 12, 2007 -

A rocket-propelled grenade (RPG) hit the home of Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh of Hamas on Tuesday, in what Hamas said was an attempted assassination. The house was damaged, but Haniyeh and his family, who were inside, were not harmed.

The attack came during the bloodiest 24-hour period yet in latest round of Hamas-Fatah fighting, which erupted again in May, after several weeks of lull. Seventeen people were killed Monday and Tuesday, including several in street executions, as hospitals turned into battle grounds.

Both Hamas and Fatah, on Web sites and in text messages to activists, called for the execution of the other side’s military and political leaders.

A Hamas Web site described the incident as an assassination attempt. Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum accused Fatah of targeting Palestinian institutions to undermine Hamas rule. “They crossed all the red lines,” he said.

Late Monday, gunmen, apparently from Hamas, laid siege to the house of Jamal Abu al-Jediyan, the senior Fatah official in northern Gaza, then dragged him outside and killed him. Medics said he was hit with 45 bullets.

Early Tuesday, three women and a child were killed when Hamas militants attacked the home of a senior Fatah security official with mortars and grenades, security officials said. The gunmen seized Hassan Abu Rabie and killed his 14-year-old son and three other women in the house, hospital officials said.

Also, Fatah gunmen stormed the house of a Hamas lawmaker and burned it to the ground.

A bloody clash took place Monday in the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun. Fatah and Hamas gunmen exchanged fire near the hospital, killing a Hamas supporter. The battle then moved to the hospital, where three men - a father and two sons from the Fatah-allied al-Masri clan - were shot dead.
———————————

The article goes on and on…......

These are Palestinian Arabs killing other Palestinian Arabs.

What do you think they would do to the Jews?

The Jews already know the answer to that question.

That’s why Israel exists - so Jews won’t ever have to live as a minority under the rule of people like this.

That’s self-determination.

Tony Wicher - you are such a passionate advocate for the destruction of Israel - why don’t you convert to Judaism and thn go live in Gaza amongst these people and demonstrate for us how a “one-state” solution would work.

That would be the empirical way to prove your point.

You would fail of course, by being slaughtered. But at least you would have honorably tried to make your point instead of demanding, from the safety of California, that Jews offer themselves up to the slaughter to satisfy your oddball ideas.

Re #76969 by nahida on 6/11 at 2:20 am
(52 comments total)

Amen, sister. In the face of the incredibly onerous Israeli oppression, do you think it is possible for Palestinians to unite around a leadership comnmitted to democracy and nonviolence? Can your people elevate from among themselves a Mandela, a Gandhi?

Re #77081 by Inherit The Wind on 6/11 at 2:09 pm
“So the anti-Semites, oops, “Anti-Zionists” are coming out of the closet again.  I keep waiting for them to say, “You know, Hitler might have been right about the Jews, oops, ‘Zionists’(chortle)”

They self-righteously have come up with “new” ways to justify their anti-Semitism, oops, “anti-Zionism” that are all exactly the same old lies.  Just substitute “International Jewry” for “International Zionism” and you see it the same damn thing all over again. “Jewish World Domination” is now “Zionist Imperialism”.

Nothing but code words, pioneered by the American Nazi Party.

—————————————————————————-
We have to be very careful to understand who the real “anti-Semites” are, for sure. Now racism comes in many forms, and I say Nazism is one and Zionism is another.

One of the major deceptions of Zionism is identification of Zionism with Judaism. Judaism has existed for thousands of years. Anti-semitism as I understand it begins with the Roman Catholic Church and the idea that “the Jews killed Jesus”. This idea was put into the heads of little children for two millenia, and it spawned all kinds of persecution. The Nazis just took advantage of this pre-existing condition for a scapegoat to misdirect the German people’s attention while they went about taking power.

Zionism, the idea of a “return” of Jews to a Jewish state in Palestine, is not thousands of years old. It was born toward the end of the 19th century, born in the fevered brain of Theodore Herzl only a generation before Nazism was born in the equally fevered brain of one Adolph Schickelgruber. I wouldn’t doubt it if Hitler read Herzel and got his inspiriation there.

Zionism is racism, and calling those who call it what it is “anti-Semitic” is precisely to give those very Nazis that you are talking about the cover and respectablility they need. When Jews support Israel no matter what it does, no matter how immoral its behavior, this also gives real anti-Semites cover and respectablility. Thus, objectively, Zionism and Nazism work hand in hand, and they always have. Both are a danger to democracy, and both should be seen as such by all Americans, especially Jewish Americans. They should be more alarmed than any other group. They must see where this is all heading and dissociate themselves from Zionism.

Here is an article from the “Jews Against Zionism” website.

“Zionism Promotes Anti-Semitism”

Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”

Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.” In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

Zionist reliance on Anti-Semitism to further their goals continues to this day. Studies of immigration records reflect increased immigration to the Zionist state during times of increased anti-Semitism. Without a continued inflow of Jewish immigrants to the state of “Israel”, it is estimated that within a decade the Jewish population of the Zionist state will become the minority.

In order to maintain a Jewish majority in the state of “Israel”, its leaders promote anti-Semitism throughout the world to “encourage” Jews to leave their homelands and seek “refuge”.

The rest of the article may be viewed at

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/zionismpromotes.cfm

There goes “stenchy/lefty” he gets knocked down by a “baboon” with “ONLY” one weeks training.

Its been one knockdown after another for ole…stenchy/lefty=ephraim. We are all witnessing his failures and humiliations…almost on a daily basis. I think that he still has a black/blue lump on his left jaw…it was that left hook from Peter RV !!! Lefty…Just can’t seem to forget that! Who could?

HAVE YOU GOT SOMETHING NEW…LEFTY=EPHRAIM? ARE YOU NOT CAPABLE OR WHAT? TELL YOUR HELPERS TO GIVE YOU SOMETHING BEYOND “BABOON” IQ LEVELS…FOR YOU TO TYPE & POST.

COME ON STENCHY…GIVE US YOUR BEST. YOU ARE LOOKING PRETTY BAD TO ALL OF US & THE TRUTHDIG READERS.

PRODUCE SOMETHING ...NEW ! DON’T LET YOUR PALS DOWN..YOU IDIOT!

GAZA CITY, June 11, 2007 - Militants battling on the rooftops of Gaza fired on the Palestinian government headquarters on Monday, forcing the ministers to flee the building. The unusually brazen factional fighting left seven Palestinians dead, including three killed in a hospital gunbattle.

  Fighting between Fatah and Hamas forces resumed over the weekend, and the attacks have grown bolder. Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh’s home was shot at early Monday, and hours later a Hamas supporter was killed in a firefight near Beit Hanoun Hospital, witnesses said. The fighting shifted into the hospital, where three people with ties to Fatah were killed.

  On Sunday, two militants from the rival sides were dragged onto high-rise rooftops and thrown to their deaths.
======================
That’s the same way Uday Hussein used to murder his victims. Let’s give them a state!

Hey Nahida - what do you think your beloved Palestinian Arabs would do to the Jews in your absurd “one-state genocide” scenario if this is what they do to each other?

No need to answer - that’s a rhetorical question. Besides, we already know what you intend to do - it’s in the Hamas charter, it’s in the PLO covennant, it’s in your Palestinian Arab textbooks, it’s in all the terror attacks against Jewish civilinas for years and years and years.

Comment #76926 by Billy T D on 6/10 at 7:36 pm

Billy,

Your comment has a message to our hysterical hecklers. They are still using those methods/tactics that you & I listed in our previous comments, a couple of days ago.

WE CLEARLY SEE THEIR DECEPTIVE WAYS/TACTICS.

- Character attack/lie, lie, lie…

- Attempt to change the topic when the truth/facts expose their true colors & their zionist propaganda.

- Sidetrack the issues.

- Attempt to plant doubt to the readers.

- Label comments/commenters as…Arabs, Islamists, Jew haters…etc…and hoping to discourage readers from reading our factual comments/information. In other words, attempt via deceptive methods/ways to blindfold & muffle ‘trudig’s’ readers from paying attention to our input/comments.

Notice that this zionist gang’s “PATTERN” has been consistent with what I have just described.

These fanatic zealots have an agenda to all readers. And that is to shield them from the TRUTH about Israel’s NAZI, Apartheid policies against the Palestinians. ALL BECAUSE THE PALESTINIANS ARE NOT JEWISH! They don’t meet Israel’s “RACIST” standards.

Notice that they have NO substance. Its ALL the same ole malarkey. Their main goals are just post zionist propaganda garbage, hoping to counter our information.

Ill-lie-mam & “stenchy/lefty=pesach” sound very similar. Its almost the same broken beat after beat…stenchy/lefty is lost in all this information. He can’t cope with his competition…who is perched & watching every one of his moves. Ephraim=lefty just keeps typing & posting whatever his helper(s) is/are giving him. That is his ONLY ROLE. He has NO choice in the matter

These guys have NO shame nor any self respect. They all got exposed & knocked down several times for their zionist propaganda.

They are probably celebrating that you have exited from this forum due to their ...SOS. They probably said that is one less nemesis that we have to deal with.

NORMAN FINKELSTEIN WILL CONTINUE WITH THE SAME ENERGY TO EXPOSE ZIONIST’S DECEPTIONS & SPEAKING OUT FOR THE OPPRESSED.