Skruff

You may not realize it but you also have your “religion” in that you are firmly planted in your dogma no matter what the other side says.

Skruff #73513 writes:

<<<You haven’t done your homework. I’ve outlined this position already.  Read my posts if you are interested. >>>>

This is some of my homework:
OUR OWN BACKYARD: the United States in Central America, 1977-1992 by William M. Leogrande
BITTER FRUIT: The story of the American Coup in Guatemala by Stephen Schlesinger and Stephen Kinzer
PARADISE IN ASHES: a Guatemalan journey of courage, terror, and hope by Beatriz Manz.
ZAPATA LIVES! Histories and Cultural Politics in Southern Mexico by Lynn Stephen.

You ask:
<<How is a legally qualified Honduran, playing by the rules, less important than one who cuts ahead of the others? >>>

The legally qualified Honduran would not be one who is desperately poor.  I have met some “legal” immigrants from Guatemala and Cuba and they were middle class in their home countries, and I might add white. 
Your simile does not accurately reflect the true reality:
<<<Like leaving a burning building, some guy who pushes by others attempting exit would be considered a coward?>>>

It’s more like someone breaking into a house to escape a vicious hound to sve himself while another has no such threat.

Skruff, I can only conclude that you continue to focus on the “you” vs. “they” despite your knowing that I had no foreknowledge of your Dutch ancestry because you really have no response to the core issue—your assertion that history doesn’t matter; that all that is important is the here and now; the fact that these people are “illegal” in your eyes.

As to “personal attack,” how about your unjustified assertion that “I” am “promoting anarchy”—a claim you made “before” I provided an intellectual rebuttal to your history doesn’t matter comment.  So get off your high-and-mighty pedestal.

It is obvious that you are incapable of mustering an intellectual justification for your “history doesn’t matter” thesis, so you do the next best thing—change the subject. 

By the way, I am wondering—Was Rosa Parks “promoting anarchy” when she refused to give up her seat?

To Scruff #734356 who writes:

<<<Finally, I am not anti Immigrant. I am opposed to illegal immigration.  Why should folks waiting, sometimes for years, be forced to the rear of the line by folks ignoring the law.  The argument that Oliver North broke the law so immigrants should also be free to do the same sounds like strains of Nixon’s Watergate lamment “all tthe other presidents did it”>>>

So you think the US bears no responsibility for the political and economic status quo in Latin America?  Guatemala?  El Salvador? Nicaragua?  Chile?  Southern Mexico? etc. etc.

And do you honestly think that the people risking their lives just to just to work in support of their families have any chance of legal entry?

Can you answer these questions?

Skruff, you may be here to tally points.  I’m here to have an honest intellectual dialogue with fellow truthdiggers.  It is truly unfortunate that you do not have the good sense to accept a heart felt apology, but your lack of good sense won’t cause me to retract my position.  Only sound, intellectual reasoning that convinces me I am wrong can do that.

I suspect that your overreaction is the product of the fact that my words struck home.  Your convenient historical amnesia was worthy of a solid intellectual rebuttal, which is precisely what was provided both by myself and by thenewworld.  I stand by the central thesis of my remarks.  So far, you’ve done no more than to tell us you were offended.  You have offered not one cogent argument as to why thenewworld and I have not set forth cogent, racist historical antecedents for present day immigrant bashing.

You make much of so-called “illegal” status, while chosing to ignore the devastating neoliberal policies that have driven these unfortunate individuals into economic refugee status.  You may not personally be a racist, but that does not remove the undercurrent of racism within the anti-immigrant movement—a racial animus that was on display during the May Day melee in Los Angeles.  The only thing separating the vigilantes who describe themselves as “Minutemen” and the KKK are the white sheets. 

As far as legality, it must be kept in mind that our immigration laws have always been the product of Anglo control of our government and culture, hence where an influx of Asian immigrants in the late 19th Century produced a “Chinese Exclusion Act,” you will not find any instance of a British, Canadian or Australian Exclusion Act. 

We live in a country where it was once the law in many states that blacks and whites were forced to eat at separate lunch counters, travel on different sections of a bus, attend separate schools. It was also illegal, prior to the civil war, to take part in the underground railroad where numerous Americans of good conscience assisted runaway slaves in fleeing to Canada. If the only measure is whether someone has violated the law, then we would have to condemn Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and Sojourner Truth—just as you now condemn the economic refugees who have violated immigration laws in their search for survival.  And yes, Skruff, I realize that you never condemned Dr. King, Mrs. Parks or Ms. Truth as “illegals,” but such condemnation is the logical extension of the limited insight you have offered to the thorny issue of immigration reform.

re comment #73414 by thenewworld:  On the flip side, it is that history of racist colonialism that makes the electoral successes of Evo Morales and Hugo Chavez all the more remarkable.

What an irony.  These daya Sean Hannity, Col. Oliver North and Newt GIngrich are taking their show on the road, the Freedon Concert, in part to fan more anti-Hispanic rage.  Colonel North broke the law with his involvement in the Iran-Contra conspiracy but that’s ok while desperately poor people are condemned as law-breakers for struggling to survive.  Even more ironic, Col. North sponsored a US intervention in a Latin American country, one of a long string of such US interventions.  So much for sovereignty of other countries.  This year he even went to Nicaragua to try and help defeat Daniel Ortega!

Skruff #73253 writes:

<<<I don’t ignore history, but I live in today.  I prefer doing something useful to ruminating on past human mistakes.>>>

You cannot separate the past from the present because the present is often a consequence of the past.  As someone who proudly claims native ancestry, I would think you would have more empathy for the people victimized by both their countries or origin and the US anti-immigration rage.
Considering that the US has played a strong role in Latin American it is only fair and just that the people who have fled to the US would be given a chance for citizenship.  Furthermore, if there has to be that Super Fence, the US should stop demonizing Latin America leaders who are doing something about the inequality in their countries.  Demand that the US stop training the military of Latin American countries, stop meddling in their elections- in other words keep on its side of the border.

Arthur # 73122 writes:

<<<You’re too hung up on race.  The fact that the monied and ruling elite are mostly white is really irrelevant.  What’s important here as well as with the rest of the world is not race, but money.>>>>

Your statement reveals that you know very little about Latin America.  Race has definitely determined who owns most of the land and who is wealthy and powerful today.  In most Latin Americ an countries, there is the legacy of Colonialism in that the descendants of the conquerors still hold all the power and money.  The class system there follows the descending order of white/European descendants or immigrants, mestizos or other mixed race creolles with the Amerindians at the bottom.  You might also find that the legal immigrants from Latin America tend to be from the upper classes while the “illegals” are mestizo or Indians.  And the US has very much played a strong role in mainting this staus quo to serve its own economic and political interestest.
Morally, the US should take responsibility for this and therefore, the immigration law is justice for the people whose countries the US has dominated.

Skruff:  It was not my intent to insult you personally.  “Our ancesters” would no doubt have been better than “your ancestors.”  To the extent that my choice of words was taken by you as a “personal attack,” you have my must humble apology.  That said, I think the point I made about the anti-immigrant movement ignoring history is not merely a far-cry from “hate speech” but intellectually valid.  There is a sense in which much of what is taking place today must be placed within the context of a 500 year history of Anglo-European conquest—a history that not only entails the racist ideology of Manifest Destiny but the horrors of Middle Passage and the Peculiar Institution.

Interesting retort, Skruff, ignore history.  Only the here and now is important.  Thus, it doesn’t matter that your Anglo ancestors, with captured African slaves in tow, stepped onto this land without the permission of those who already lived here, then carried out a sea-to-shining sea genocidal campaign under the racist dogma of Manifest Destiny.  To the victor goes the spoils including the right to disrupt the natural migratory patterns of the indiginous peoples with the reddish brown skin who once roamed free.  Any who dare cross the border we have drawn sans permission can be branded “illegal” even if their very survival is threatened by U.S. imperial control of the south of the border economies where, under NAFTA and the WTO, peasants are driven from their lands because they find it impossible to compete with the heavily subsidized U.S. agricultural products that are being dumped into Mexico and elsewhere at below the local cost of production. 

But then, I do not understand your opposition to what the Bush regime is doing in Iraq.  After all, aren’t they just carrying out the Manifest Destiny of your forebearers—a right to go anywhere in the world, uninvited, to exploit any people’s natural resources, to subjugate peoples of color and to claim that any land on which Anglos set foot is theirs? 

Sure they lied about WMD and links to 9/11 and al-Qaeda in order to justify this unprovoked war of aggression, but that is so “yesterday.”  Today we are there.  It’s ours!

Hmmm?

to thenewworld #72953 who wrote:

<<a >>

You’re too hung up on race.  The fact that the monied and ruling elite are mostly white is really irrelevant.  What’s important here as well as with the rest of the world is not race, but money.  What determines your station in life is no longer the ethnicity of your parents, but their wealth.  If you think that a poor white child has more opportunity that a child of rich minorities, then you are quite naïve.

Historically the ruling class used slave and cheap labor to control the working class. Look at management, labor struggles.  The way management tried to break a union was by using scab labor.  Divide and conquer has always been their strategy.  Threaten to replace your workers with an even more desperate group of workers.  Get trade policy changed so you can threaten to move manufacturing over seas if workers get demanding. and then move manufacturing overseas anyway and blame the unions. Outsource service and computer jobs and for those jobs that can’t be outsourced import as much labor as you can with H1B visas.  This new bill will along with Amnesty remove the limitations of the H1B visas by allowing all immigration to be based upon work skills, degrees and knowing English.  The rich are now going after the American middle class as well as the working class. A recent study confirmed this.  It stated that American men in their 30’s are making less in inflation adjusted dollars than what their fathers made.  The richest 1% of Americans receive 22% of the total income of the country, a percentage that rose 50% in the last 15 years.

The rich have been involved in an undeclared stealth class war for decades now.  But they don’t want you to know about it.  They want you to believe that your economic problems are the result of racism so that you will fight the very people who share your economic interests. 

Have you wondered why this bill was drafted primarily by corporate lobbyists.  Why the bill is being championed by President Bush and other rich Republicans?  And why the Democrats that support it seem to be able to raise tens of millions of campaign dollars from rich corporate donors.

If you are a citizen and not rich, then there is no reason to support this new bill.  More workers means lower wages for all, and its doesn’t matter if they’re coming from Mexico or India.  This bill hurts more citizens than it helps, so if democracy is working the way it should then the bill should fail.

To Arthur #72873 who wrote:

<<If affluent Americans would stop hiring them, there jobs would dry up and those here would go home.  If jobs were not available there would be no motive to come here in the first place.>>

If the US had not treated Latin America as if it was its own backyard via the illegal, unilateral Monroe Doctrine for the past 150 years, Mexicans, Guatemalans, Salvadorans, Nicaraguans, etc. etc. would most likely have decent countries to live in today and would not need to come here.  The US always intervened to keep the status quo which in most of Latin America still means a tiny minority own most of the land, have all the wealth and power and are generally white/European descent exploiting the mestizo, creolle and indigenous population.  Have you ever noticed the difference in appearance between Latin American leaders and the so called “illegals”?  On moral grounds we owe them a path to citizenship because the of the heavy US hand that determines their fate.

Hey Skruff, tell me something.  Did the Pilgrims obtain papers from Native Americans before embarking onto Plymouth rock, or would you consider them to be “illegal immigrants?”

Supporters have worked hard to make a bill that they could claim was Not amnesty.  They put in a lot of stuff in it about returning home and taking 8 to 13 years for permanent residency and citizenship.  But the fact is that it is AMNESTY.  As soon as the bill becomes effective all 12 to 20 million illegal aliens are legal to work in the US and their employers can hire or continue to employ them without breaking the law.  Most illegal aliens are here not to become citizens, but to compete with Americans for jobs that pay more than what they could earn in their home country.

Deportation is not necessary.  If affluent Americans would stop hiring them, there jobs would dry up and those here would go home.  If jobs were not available there would be no motive to come here in the first place.  Costly increased border security and deportation would be unnecessary.  The solution is to go after their employers.  Fine people that hire illegals and it would no longer be profitable to hire them.  It’s only a matter of political will.

To Scruff #72631 who, among other things said:

<The sobbing citizen bashing, and amazing compassion for poor Mexicans, at the expense of poor US citizens makes me puke.

I’ve seen many folks in this country who are “devoted” to their families, I >

You took one sentence from my description of what is happening in Mexico but ignored all the rest.  Why so defensive?  Do you know anything about what NAFTA has done to the poor of Mexico?  And have you heard of the Monroe Doctrine?

In my town, there was a robbery/murder of a worker from El Salvador just when he was on the phone with his girlfriend telling her he is coming home.  Four thugs broke into the trailer where he lived with several other probably illegal worker and shot him dead when he fought back to keep his hard earned money.  These were young, able bodied men who rather than work would steal from another man who worked hard.  This climate of the agrieved America invaded by “illegals” makes it OK to committ murder.  If only you knew what America has done to other people in our hemisphere.

Skruff, you are one confused individual.  Thenewworld was not “citizen bashing.”  He was explaining the impact of neoliberal policies embodied in NAFTA and the WTO upon the indigenous population of Mexico; explaining its devastating consequences for the ordinary folks of that culture South of the border. 

My concern is that the entire neoliberal scheme must be examined for its impact world-wide.  NAFTA and the WTO have permitted outsourcing of America’s manufacturing base not only to Mexico but to wherever the ruling class can secure production at below poverty level wages. In China that often entails individuals working sixteen hours/day for $2/day.  In the end, it is not merely the Mexican peasants and working classes that are damaged but the middle class aspirations of ordinary folks everywhere, including here in the U.S.  Read Jeff Faux’s “The Global Class War.”  His analysis that the ruling classes of various nations have more loyalty to one another than they do to the nation-states wherein they reside is spot on.  Certainly that is true for the American ruling class which has long placed personal greed ahead of the interests of this nation.

Except to the extent that it involved the economic engines that are the driving force for the massive northward migration and how the ruling classes of both Mexico and the U.S. are relying upon the existence of an overabundance of labor created by that migration—in the form of temporary residents to be exploited if the new immigration “reform” passes—the intellectual exchange between thenewworld and I pertained to his focus of its impact being most devastating on Mexico’s indiginous peasants and working class and my point that neoliberalism is designed to destroy the middle class aspirations of the working class everywhere.  Neither his nor my postings had anything to do with bashing of “U.S. citizens”—that is unless your definition of “citizen” is limited to the ruling elites who make up less than 1% of the population.

I hope I am wrong, but I suspect your readiness to launch into derogatory comments about “poor Mexicans” arises in part from the racism that underscores so much of present day anti-immigrant bashing.  Not racist, you say?  When is the last time you heard someone complain about illegal Canadian immigrants?  When was the last time you heard someone suggest building a wall along the Canadian border?  Could it be never?  Could it be because Canadians are mostly white?  Hmmmm!

Re 72483 by Ernest Canning.

In Mexico, the people hurt most are the lower classes, especially the indigenous farmers in southern Mexico who were put into competition against subsidized corn growers of the US.  Thousands have lost their land and there are no jobs to support their families.  Moreover, in Chiapas, Oaxaca they have found oil and gas which multinationals crave.  In order for NAFTA to be put into effect. the Mexican government had to amend article 27 of the Mexican Constitution which protected indigenous lands.  Now, people who used to support themselves plus sell their corn, have been driven off their land with the choice of moving into slums of Mexico City or risk their lives by trying to get to El Norte.  All this to support their families.  What a description of a felon: “a person who risks his life to get to the US, live under horrible conditions, work hard just to support his family.”  If only some of the “natives” of our country had that sense of devotion.

re comment 72256 by Thenewworld.  NAFTA and the WTO have not simply been a disaster for Mexico.  They have served to derail the middle class aspirations of working people everywhere, including within this country.  Both are tools by which a tiny economic elite seeks to subjugate everyone else.  See, Jeff Faux, “The Global Class War.”

The Best Thing this country could do right now, after we eliminate the tyrannical government we have, is to get our troops home from Iraq, and every where else in the WORLD, close our borders completely and make sure they stay CLOSED, and PROTECTED, remove the devastating destructive cheap labor force that has invaded our country, then tell CORPORATE AMERICA… you want to do business in this country, better be here and treat theamericanpeople with the respect we deserve. Who made them the BIG CORPORATE GIANTS they became?

The one Ace in the hole we have, is the consumer power to make this happen. How anyone can even walk in a Wal-Mart is beyond me. They remind me of King Bushit telling everyone how “AMERICAN” he is. My ASS !!!

If corporations want to expand into other countries, good deal. But not at the expense of theamericanpeople! If another country wants to TRADE FAIR with us, good deal. If they need our help from someone that causes them harm, let’s go help. But leave their government or religion or culture to them to deal with on their own.

And if someone wants to cause us harm… let’s go kick their ass! Then come back home and leave the job done, done. Not some 1/2 ass attempt to “help out” like the Viet Nam War, and our current situation in Iraq, that is only as bad as the Nazi regime, and ends up being an occupation and forced situation of our lifestyle instead of how they want to live.

Didn’t Poland take care of their labor dilema a few years ago by the whole damn country going on strike? So what doesn’t Idiot America understand about our situation? It only takes Patriotic people who love our country to STAND UP & STAND FOR WHAT IS RIGHT!!!
What is so difficult to understand about that one.

Instead of being bitchers & naggers, get up off our dead ass and let’s do something positive about it. Starting with the Consumer Power thing. It’s already been proven, “WASHINGTON” could care less what theamericanpeople think anymore.

Someone pass a law refusing to pay for “REPRESENTATIVES” that aren’t doing the jobs they were elected to do in the first place. Do any of you get paid for doing nothing at your jobs? Didn’t think so, unless your some corporate executive.

NAFTA has been a disaster for Mexico, especially southern Mexico.  It is an agreement that is unequal, bad for Mexico’s people.  The US citizens ought to demand that their government keep its hands off Latin America or take responsibility for the people its policies have harmed.  Currently,it is providing military aid and training for Mexico’s military despite there being no external enemy.  Who is the enemy?  The poor and indigenous who have been exploited by the elites of Mexico and who have no other recourse but to demonstrate as in Oaxaca recently.  The one candidate in Mexico’s election whose primary interest was to address poverty and rewriteNAFTA or sign off on NAFTA was defeated by a couple of thousand votes, thanks to ferocious attack ads, helped by the sleazy Dick Morris.  The vicious hatred I see in some of the posts here are possible through ignorance about our own country’s culpability in perpetuating poverty and hopelessness in Latin America.

Comment #71807 by Nitro:

“Let’s just run an ad that says,“Terrorists Welcome.”“

Strawman.

Remember those crazy young men and their flying machines? The 9/11 hijackers were here legally.

But let’s just be scared. Let’s just listen to the stupidly false data the “liberal press” keeps telling us about.

Stop being unimaginative.

The “Terrorists” from without, by which I mean religious fundamentalists who would plot to come to this country to blow things up, will do so via legal avenues. That is how they got away with it. They will exploit the system. They will not need, nor want, to cross the desert at night.

The “Terrorists” from within, by which I mean religious fundamentalists who would plot to control this country, will do so by spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt. That is how they get people to fear the border. They will exploit the uneducated populous. They will not need, nor want, a questioning public.

Comment #71938 by Skruff:

“You are free to “call them” anything you want, BUT no name can remove the fact that their first act on our soil was to break our laws.”

The “They” that you talk of are 60% visa overstays, which means they came here legally.

And if you have ever driven your auto faster the speed limit, you break the law. Are you then an “illegal driver?” Yes.

Oh yeah. Ever hear about American companies who import workers for cheap labor? It is those companies whose practices, supported by the government, and ignored by the press, who really drive down waged.

But, of course, these things are never talked about by anti-immigration forces.

“What’s crazy is to fantasize about hunting down millions of men, women and children and forcibly driving them away.”

Yeah. What we’ll do is jail them.

There is no such thing as a labor shortage.  According to standard economic theory, if a business is too inefficient to pay prevailing market wages, it should close down rather than squander resources that could be put to better use elsewhere.

Cesar Chavez Opposed Illegals

Cesar Chavez, in his day, was no more tolerant of illegal immigration than the Minutemen are now. Worried about the illegal immigrants driving down wages, Chavez–-according to numerous historical accounts-–instructed union members to call the Immigration and Naturalization Service to report the presence of illegal immigrants in the fields and demand that the agency deport them. United Farm Workers union officials were even known to picket INS offices to demand a crackdown on illegal immigrants.
In 1973 the union set up a “wet line” to prevent Mexican immigrants from entering the United States. Under the guidance of Chavez’s cousin Manuel, UFW members tried at first to convince the immigrants not to cross. When that did not work, they physically attacked the immigrants and left some bloody in the process. It happened where the Minutemen now gather: the U.S.-Mexico border.

Amen, Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD. I’m not quite sure, but I liked that “Demagougery” word. I think it’s another word for selling “Wolf Tickets.” Or creating chaos & confusion amongst the populus.

And I couldn’t agree more than with the Biggest Issue being, HOW THEY KEEP GETTING AWAY WITH WHAT THEY ARE DOING! It would really be nice to have leaders, that could lead us somewhere in a positive direction, instead of into their mire & pits of shit.

ASHAMED?! You’re damn right I’m ashamed! Ashamed to the point if something isn’t done soon, something will surely happen that will only be labeled as, “Something EVIL DOERS OR TERRORISTS would do.” I prefer to label it as something only AN AMERICAN PATRIOT would do.

I just commented on the Gonzales article how maybe it’s time for the 2nd Revolution. Maybe some good old fashioned tarring & feathering or hangings on the White House Lawn. Since they all seem to be thumbing their noses at the American People and our Representatives that want to do something about it.

Maybe it’s time we paid them with the same respect. I’ll be damned if I vote for any more Liars & Deceivers and right now,... I’m not seeing too many prospectable candidates that aren’t already just “PROFESSIONAL CAREER POLITICIANS” and Liars and Deceivers in the first degree.

I’d come closer to voting for someone with NO POLITICAL CAREER AGENDA, that had just 1/2 a thimble of good old common sense. Why we need to keep “SUBSIDIZING” damn near every industry to keep them afloat, when some good common sense tactics COULD, balance our budget, get this country back on it’s SOLID FEET, without subsidizing everyone, and have some leadership we could be proud of, instead of having to hide our faces. They keep throwing such a shit fit to make sure there is a “SEPARATION OF CHURCH & STATE.” I THINK IT’S TIME FOR TH SEPARATION OF CORPORATION & STATE AS WELL!”

AND… protect our borders from being INVADED! Talk about kids going to bed hungry, and no heat?... I’m just a dumb as a post cowboy, that is going to have to borrow money again this fall, just to pay the feed bill? Bull Shit! Really hope my 2nd job to pay the feed bill this year, isn’t outsourced somewhere. And I guess I could rip out my fence posts to heat the house this next winter…

So in response to Dennis D. (#71845)... I’ve got over 300 head of Red Angus cows w/calves here, that I’d be more than glad to donate to run our country. And I know, there would be less crap to clean up than the mess we have now. AMEN!

To a Better Day…

After hours of watching Congressional debate of this immigration ‘compromise’ scam I feel this is a bad bill and will harm Americans in the short & long run. It might be a boon for Big Business, but will cost America treasure, social upheaval, and security. What’s the rush? This thousand page documentneeds a month of study & debate before a vote.

On a more important issue, and one I was warning about a year ago, take a look at this article I ran across:

Bush Anoints Himself as the Ensurer of Constitutional Government in Emergency
By Matthew Rothschild
The Progressive
Friday 18 May 2007

Google theprogressivemagazine for a shocker of an article.

This was the final piece of the puzzle toward dictatorship. A Presidential Directive dated & quietly signed May 9, 2007 that gives Bush complete control over ALL branches of government in the event of a man-made or natural disaster causing a ‘State of Emergency’.

The rich think that U.S. workers are overpaid.

Nitro, terrorism and unsecure borders are two relatively unimportant issues in the lives of the majority of Americans.  The Bush administration and Congress would like to keep us focused on those two non-issues and they’re doing a great job.  It’s called demagougery.  This is so they don’t have to deal with the real issues of health care, poverty, education, energy, and global warming among others.  Since 2001, terrorism in this country has taken probably 3-4000 lives.  Stop to think about how many have died from traffic accidents, inadequate health care, malnutrition, in just the last year.  If our president and our congress are so ignorant and heartless to lead us, LEAD us, to that brand of thinking, then we need to get them all the Hell out of their jobs and get people in there who understand what’s important.  Why doesn’t one of them have the balls to stand up and tell the truth. Say, “What the hell are we doing here?  We’ve got kids going to bed hungry, families without health insurance, people unable to heat their homes, those who have them, an education system fast becoming a laughing stock in the developed world, bigotry and racism and all we can do is build a freakin’ wall along the Rio Grande to hinder—not stop—a few Mexicans.  Aren’t we ashamed of ourselves?”  How can we continue to let them get away with it?  THAT’S THE BIGGEST ISSUE!

“Undocumented migrants or Illegal Aliens.” A spade is a spade is a spade. The Bushit Tyranny does not want to deal with the Immigrant issue, how else would he be able to cripple the American Economy and Cheapen the Labor Force. Just like 9/11… we had to have an eminent threat to our National Security to give way to the excuse for war. But did we go after the criminal who allegedly did it?

To make a point… I, like beelzabush666, have worked in the construction industry, agriculture and transportation industries for nearly 40 years & in the early ‘70’s worked for $10.-$13.00 an hour. Two years ago, top construction wages were $8.00 an hour! Agriculture?... $7.00 an hour! And where did all our “GOOD JOBS GO ?” Outsourced, OverSeas and to the countries where all the “MIGRANT WORKERS ARE COMING FROM?”

And like so many other Americans, have your wages went up, say with the price of gas? Just this last week while at the license branch, the branch operator came out and wanted me to get the license # of a certain vehicle, from another neighboring state, where 4 “undocumented migrants” had tried to receive a drivers license from our state.

She commented that they were speaking Spanish, she played dumb while they said, “WE better get out of here, we’re not going to get a free drivers license or food stamps!” She did however find out they were from Guatamala. And that they were not up here for “migrant work,” only a free hand out with documentation. The Sale of Iraq ? How about the Sale of America ?!

It’s already been documented and proven that “terrorists,” are coming up through Central America then Mexico to reside in the U.S. I’m sure they’re up here looking for work…

So why don’t we just open up the borders and let everyone in? Let’s just run an ad that says,“Terrorists Welcome. We Americans are too lazy to terrorize our own country, pay commensurable with experience!”

Come on folks. Let’s get real. LEGAL MIGRATION & WORK VISAS ARE ONE THING. ILLEGAL BORDER CROSSING IS ANOTHER. A spade, is a spade,is a spade! Is the general American public gotten that ignorant and stupid, or is that what the Bushit Administration and Mainstream just want us to think?

I challenge all of you commenting and reaserching on all these issues to visit the web site below.

To a Better Day…

http://www.millionphonemarch.com/thankyou7m.php

They’re at it again!  At the same time we see a “bi-partisan” effort to sneak through immigration “reform,” the so-called “Democratic leadership” has engaged in secret negotiations for yet another trade agreement with the same type of unenforceable “side-agreements” that Clinton rammed down our throats with NAFTA.  As noted by Rick MacArthur, the publisher of Harper’s Magazine and author of the book, “The Selling of ‘Free Trade: NAFTA, Washington, and the Subversion of American Democracy,” when he was interviewed on May 22, 2007 by Amy Goodman on Democracy Now!  “This is a fundraising gambit by the House leadership.  Nancy Peolosi and Charlie Rangle…are putting out their sandwich board on Wall Street to say, ‘We’re ready for business.’...This is a fundraising tactic, which was pioneered by Bill Clinton in the NAFTA fight in 1993, when he essentially said, ‘The Democratic Party, or at least my administration, is going to be corporate-friendly…”  Clinton set out to prove it “by pushing a trade agreement that is absolutely hostile to everything the Democratic Party used to stand for….”

If this latest back-room deal is not enough to get people to stop selecting from the so-called “electable” candidates—Obama, Clinton & Edwards—corporatist sell-outs all, and to turn in droves to the Kucinich campaign, (while simultaneously opposing these bogus trade and immigration “reforms”) then there truly is no hope for the middle class aspirations of American labor.

re comment #71762 bu Jonathan.  Just what we need.  Another irrelevant, racist, anti-semitic rant to muck up an already difficult academic issue.  Other than that minute percentage of Native Americans, the rest of us are either immigrants or the decendents of immigrants. That, I suspect, includes you, Jonathan.

Mr. Robinson:

Why have you failed to mention that the bill allowing illegals legal status is around 1,000 pages long?
And that only 400 pages have so far been written, yet the Congress is supposed to pass this bill with nearly 600 pages left blank, to be filled in later.

And corporations like “SPRAWL-MART” are too busy jumping for joy at the thought of all that cheap labor.
Just think of how many Americans they can lay off.  Of course, their jobs will be offered back, at half wages and only one a part- time basis.

You know what, very few people want a free ride.  They recognize that it’s better all the way around if they work for what they get.  It’s a pride thing.  I’m not an economist, but I bet that if you add up all the “help” given to individuals in this country, illegal aliens or otherwise, it would be a drop in the bucket compared to what our gov. has taken from honest, hard-working, taxpayers to bail out the S&L, the airlines, tax credits for large corps, subsidies, etc.—or to finance an illegal war.  People lucky enough to be born in this altruistic society think they have some gawd given, exclusive right to it, and can’t stand the thought of some poor, hard-working bastard coming across the border to pick up some change to feed his/her kid.  That those people are undocumented doesn’t matter; entitled people would find some other reason, with Bush’s help, to bitch about their being here taking something that rightfully belongs to the entitled ones.  Selfish bastards. “Give me your tired, your poor, but you’d better make sure they’re documented, first.”  Get a life!!!  How about $160,000 info trips for congressmen on a private gov. plane?  STOP PICKING ON POOR INDIVIDUALS AND START DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE DOCUMENTATED THEFT OF THE US TREASURY BY RICH PEOPLE.  WHAT ABOUT THE BILLIONS GONE MISSING IN IRAQ?  GET A LIFE!

This bill is all part of The North American Union that the imbecile is ramming down our throats, like everything else he does. His goal is to destroy the USA as a sovereign country as we now know it. They’re already building the superhighway in Texas that will run up to Canada.

Can the American sheeple stop watching American Idol long enough to stop it? Or even care?

God Bless The North American Union, formerly, America.

Google videos: 9/11 Press for Truth, Loose Change 2nd Edition, America: Freedom to Fascism

“Immigrating babies”                                    (968 words)

Nothing confusing about immigrating babies.
Foreigners, are quite adept at tapping American resources. Their countries are dominated more than America, by the European Jewish Coalition, the World’s industrial monopoly. Corruption among Government officials, there and elsewhere (including here in America) renders foreigners, as well as legal citizens, subject to lessor humane health benefits. No socialist (or) communist, in his right mind’ will stay in his Communist country! Therefore; patriotism is not one of their virtues, and they say it blatantly - they simply don’t care about the 4th of July or any other, US American event. Having practically ruined their own country with this “couldn’t care less” attitude, foreigners bring their babies here for the benefits (payed for and earned) by legal US American citizens. Immigrants, wanting and getting something for nothing: are Communal & communistic. (whatever else they may say!
From their country, they export, their often illegitimate babies, by hurrying across the border - often, at the very last final minute. Their newborn, American baby will eventualy and gradually import, the entire family - when he matures as an established “native” - US American, citizen.
Thereby further taxing US Citizens - overloading the costs of US Social Security and “welfare benefits.” (while taking on jobs that Americans do not prefer)
Whether any one likes it or not, Mexico is in “North America” has never been part of “Latin America.”  ( Therefore; Mexicans are not Latins, from Latin America) they are North Americans, from North America. ( Mexican Americans) already North Americans.

In 1913 AD - the Jewish “Federal Reserve Board” was installed and every American pair of lungs is now paying “Income Taxes.”  (which are prohibited in our US Constitution)
We pay the Federal Reserve Board, prime rate interest for the use of our own currency. The way they operate is constitutional subterfuge!
. .
We Gentiles, are “all subject” to the Jewish exploitation, that began when Columbus, Cristoforo Colon, the “Colonizer” discovered America, while looking for “new land to accommodate – the displaced Jewish population.”
Betelgeuse, Jews - were expelled from Spain in April 1492 - six months later - Columbus (not his real name) discovered America, on 12 October 1492. The expulsion of the Jews, “never happened.”  They had been in Spain for 8oo years, so it was not possible. Some scholars say Jews occupied Spain for 1200 years.

” Wealthy European and Asian investors are our enslavers, the “Seven Governors” of the “Federal Reserve Board.” They Manage the “Treasures of Zion” and flood our banks with Fiat dollars, which is paper money not backed by Silver or Gold. (which is prohibited in our US Constitution)
They get the Prime rate interest - for nothing !
Since they Crucified “Jesus Christ.”  Pharisaic and Saduceean Jews insist on the application of “the Law” upon Gentiles, but sanctimoniously hold themselves and everything they do “above and beyond” any application of the Law!
Elohim-Eloign, they say - God giveth and God taketh away.
Moreover; Jewish Pharisaic and Saduceean Jews, do not believe in Angels (or) an after life. Catholics now have us on our knees, pounding on our chest, saying “per mia culpa!  Jews deny, they crucified Jesus Christ, saying “the Romans crucified him.”  ( but they screamed and cheered for his death )
Several times the Federal Reserve Board. has drafted funds from our “Social Security” trust fund, to pay themselves the prime rate of interest, for the use of our own currency. The illegal (non Government) “Federal Reserve Board” has it’s own Inspector General, far removed from our own legal Judicial system. (a fourth branch)
As per the Constitution, it is supposed to be, three branches of Government, not Four.

Contribution by - Jonathan

once upon a time admission to the usa was open to all. it says so on the statue of liberty. there are 14 houses on my street,where i have lived for 10 years.of these 14 only 4 are still occupied by the people who were there when i first moved here. now there are three families from cuba. one family from iraq. one family from yugoslavia. one family from the dominican republic. a family from chad. two families from iran. only one family from mexico. there is a walmart 1 mile from my house. the majority of employees there are immigrants. many of them are obviously muslims,you can tell from the womens clothes. i know at least 6 people working there are from iraq. i know these people from their previous employment, a grocery store that closed.i am sure the ones from iraq are legals. i guess all of my neighbors are legal. my point; i don’t care one way or the other. these people all work,they are not living off welfare or food stamps. they are all nice quiet people. the whole immigration issue is nothing more than a republican voting issue.

I just read your comment, Earnest, and I agree.  Then it made me wonder, is it the black, brown, red, and yellow people around the world who need straightening out by the US?  Thank goodness there were some exceptions in the last century, or one could begin to accuse us of being white supremacists.
Hmmm?

Beelzabush666:  I understood that your comment was directed at the article and not at my post when I first read it.  But thanks for making this clear.

Immigration issues are a distraction.  Undocumented workers pretty much amount to domestic outsourcing.  Our gov. has made it possible for corps. to profit heavily from using “slave labor” in foreign countries, but when it happens on our soil, its a no-no.  I realize it’s ok to do that because we’ve created zillions of poverty level jobs in places where no jobs existed before.  Goodie for us!  I think we should cut to the chase, do the inevitable now, and annex Mexico, that is if they’d have us, and stop all this BS.  They probably wouldn’t even need bombing like Iraq.  We’d save all that money “securing” our borders and take away from Bush and congress a convenient bit of demogougery so that they’d have to deal with real issues, like selling the bombing of Iran to the American people.

my comments were directed to the author of this piece not the previous poster. Not many Americans are aware of the other side of the Nafta coin. Family farms in Mexico and elsewhere are being destroyed by cheap imports from the US and these former owners are now working as tenant farmers or are driven from the land. It seems that the elite of both parties have struck their bargain with the devil. Frightening? will the US economy be indistinguishable from the third world in another generation?

Obviously, you don’t do construction work, or factory work. This huge influx of low wage no benefit cost labor is hurting millions of Americans. This isnt anti Latino or zenophobic in any way. Its just practical economics. Those who say “jobs Americans dont want to do” are insulting the working class. People see real wages slip further and further and cant get benefits are fear losing what they have. At one time, in this country, labor was given honor and respect. I dont know the answer, but whatever happens has to recognize the real harm to working class Americans.

There can be no true immigration “reform” until Congress is prepared to take on the economic engine that is the driving force for this massive northward migration.  Under NAFTA and the WTO America’s agricultural conglomerates have been permitted to dump heavily subsidized food products south of the border at below the local cost of production.  (Your tax dollars at work.) This has driven Mexican and Central American peasants off of their lands to overcrowded cities, allowing the multi-national corporations who absconded with America’s manufacturing base to utilize the over-abundance of labor to force people to work at subsidence wages and creating massive numbers of unemployed laborers.

The people who migrate northward, brown-skinned laborers whom the racists in the U.S. brand as “illegals”, are economic refugees.  Hidden within the so-called immigration “reform” are measures designed to permit American capitalists to exploit a stream of “temporary” workers so as to now create competition for U.S. jobs, allowing for further “concessions” by U.S. labor, whose attention is diverted by the racist ideologies that misdirect their anger at these economic refugees when, in truth, they should be focused on the Machivellian maneurverings of the ruling class.