Transcript:

okay, don’t hold it against me i had a scotch and soda

Thanks ardee!!!

Wow, idiot, jackoff, stupid....and you proclaim yourself an “intellect”...? Quite the intellectual I must say, I am in awe…

“makes dp almost a tragicomic figure. A hint, dp, when calling an entire nation stupid one might check for mispelled wordage, not to mention mischaracterisations of the stance of those who defend Cuba from the slings and arrows of the folks who spout the right wing party line and get all the facts wrong.”

I laugh at the “tragicomic figure” reference...just curious, would you know the working end of a machete if it hit you?

Bautista, Batista

Tomata, tomato....

Oh, and by the way, you mispelled “MISSPELLED"…

Get it ardee???

Srivelings of the intellectually challenged Athens whatever...Im sure that is Athens, Georgia and not the one in Greece....:

“Again, if you want to lecture those that have “mispelled wordage” and then can’t get it straight....then who is the fool here?

And the comment regarding the stupidity of Americans and extermination...Tongue in cheek perhaps? Or was that too much for just one swallow?”

----
Some folks are just so enamored of themselves, and that would be you jackoff, that they cannot be bothered with the reality of the facts. If you just want to be insulting, and by doing so reveal how stupid you can be, be my guest.

Most with an intellect noted, I am certain, the humor
intended in mildly chiding bp for his calling of all American stupid while making a spelling error. Of course, after reading two childish efforts by you I begin to see the possibility of his being more correct than I at first assumed.

I gave you several links to the spelling of Bautista vs. Batista. Idiot that you are you fail to note the ones specifically refering to the Cuban ex dictator. How this makes a point, if indeed you have one other than atop your head I cannot fathom. I understand that, now that school is out, we get a much unqualified few who come here instead of doing homework, but you have fun now, post as you wish, go and commit an anatomically impossible task upon yourself (ask an adult), and I will simply give you a time out in the form of skipping any future efforts from you. I doubt I will be missing anything at all......

Yeah ardee, funny you should reference the following regarding “Bautista”...a site that gives a bio of Gloria Estefan, one of Miami’s biggest “gusanos” (your big buddy Fidel’s term, certainly not mine...)

http://archive.recordonline.com/archive/2005/11/19/que pasa1.htm

Again, if you want to lecture those that have “mispelled wordage” and then can’t get it straight....then who is the fool here?

And the comment regarding the stupidity of Americans and extermination...Tongue in cheek perhaps? Or was that too much for just one swallow?

Oh yeah, Dawg, while we are discussing my egregious error....Reading comprehension being what it is I guess you missed the factoid that my reference to dp’s spelling error was in response to her calling all Americans stupid. One shouldnt call others stupid when making stupid mistakes, now should one?

#73288 by athensugdawg on 5/27 at 3:58 pm
(1 comments total)

hey dawgboy

I hope you dont hurt yourself falling off that high horse...In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny,"What a maroon!”

I give you only three examples from one of my favorite search engines, Dogpile:
... was a schoolteacher, her father a bodyguard to President Fulgencio Bautista. When Fidel Castro overthrew the Bautista government, the Fajardo family fled ...
archive.recordonline.com/archive/2005/11/19/quepas… [Found on Ask.com, Yahoo!
and
Political <On March 10th, general Fulgencio Bautista staged a military coup and ... Castro was an early and vocal opponent of the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista. ...
codesign.scu.edu/coldwar/1959/ColdWar_Date/page2.h… [Found on Google, Windows Live]
and again

Amazon.com: Castro (Profiles in Power): Books: Sebastian Balfour The U.S. backed dictatorship of Gerardo Machado was overthrown in 1933 and Fulgencio Bautista emerged to crush the movements of workers who had overthrown ...
http://www.amazon.com/Castro-Profiles-Power-Sebastian-Bal… [Found on Google, Windows

Apparently we have a dichotomy (look it up type Fulgencio Bautista at Dogpile.com and check for yourself.)or perhaps the spelling is flexible, either way your comments tell me reams about you and nothing about much else.....

ardee....if you are going to be lecturing those that disagree with your position, and then condescendingly point out “mispelled wordage”, it’s “BATISTA”....not “Bautista”...Bautista is Spanish for those of the Baptist persuasion:

http://www.abaptist.org/spanish/home.html

Also a province in the Philippines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bautista

Now, here’s “BATISTA"…

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulgencio_Batista

GET IT???

#73039 by Krag on 5/26 at 2:32 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Gore Vidal: “the US has one polictical party, the party of Property, with two brances, the democrats and the republicans.
(playboy interview 198?)

---
Thanks for that, you have given Mr. Vidal even more credibility, at least in my eyes.

“People are mostly afraid of reason. They should be afraid of stupidity. If only they knew what was really fearful.”
JW Goethe

With commentary th elikes of Rafael and Max Shields this site promises to be one well worth the visit.
Thanks to both of you, and note that your literacy and accuracy has helped rid us of the agendised parrots who are not at all concerned with truth or honesty.

Rafael,

Thank you for this updated piece on Cuba. I took a look at Ginsberg’s biography that was mentioned in an earlier post, and that was from a mid- 1960s experience. The changes cited in the piece you’ve posted indicate a dynamic and progressive nation which has been able to move beyond it’s prejudices and entrapments. This is how a vibrant living society transforms itself.

Ardee,
There is an assault on reason. We see it every day through the mainstream media. A sound and well documented comment (9/11 occured due to blowback of US policies and occupation in the ME) like that of Ron Paul’s at the last Republican presidential “debate” was reported as a Guiliani “moment”. How absurd! I think our demands for authenticity and reason are actually heightened; but I do think we can over-play that sense of improved consciousness. For instance, it’s said that it took 5+ years to get a stir of protest on the Vietnam war, and Iraq was protested by millions world-wide before the invasion began. But this is a false comparison. The US did not announce its invasion of Vietnam - it was a relatively slow creeping escalation. Iraq was announced to the world and coupled with high-speed communication technology, the world resoundingly responded. BUT, the invasion happened in spite of nearly every call to postpone or cancel it.

Whether any of this portends a decline is unclear. Chomsky - the philosopher - once stated that the human species is not at the pinnicle of some hierarchy of life, and is not particularly adaptive. He cites that if humans were truly “superior” then there’d be a greater number of species who would have similar capacities - language, and other cognitive facilities. I don’t think this means the demise of the human species, but it does put into perspective the natural equality - stability - of the network of life rather than a hierachy.

The US needs to transform itself. What will bring that about and how it will be accomplished still remains to be determined. I think there is a powerful movement - Cuba is an example. Cuba has become one of a number of catalysts to lead the way from US hegemony in the South. As a life force, human are perpetually self-organizing and that natural order is being understand by this powerful movement - think 1999 protests against the WTO, and subsequent integrated (not just anti-war) movements.

re:71093

A truly perceptive response, Mr Shields, and thanks for it. If I may I would indulge my passion for the words of perceptive people by citing a quote of a personal favorite of mine:

“If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance with his instincts he will accept it, even on the slightest evidence.” Bertrand Russell in Roads to Freedom.

We are, all of us, prone to such defense of that which we support and rejection of that which we wish was untrue. With this vast internet and its almost limitless access to events and opinions it might seem easier to arrive at conclusions with both factuality and comity.

Alas it is far from such. I have been at this sort of discussion since the Aarpanet days and we have slid farther into rancor and the citing of myth as fact as we have gained greater ability to research and arrive at thoughtful decisions. I wonder if there are concrete sociological reasons for mankinds decline?

#70937 by ardee on 5/18 at 4:35 pm

What I find so interesting is what’s been happening in Cuba over the past 4 decades. This is an emerging society, experimenting with levels of participatory socialism. Let me be clear I’m talking about participation at the grass-roots.

The history of Cuba is one of a strong central government personified by Fidel Castro, and what appears to have emerged today - a stablization of the conditions, an equalibrum whereby Cuba stands vis a vis its nemesis - the US government -and the rest of the world, the loss of the Soviet Union which seems to have proved a blessing - dependent relationships rather than inter-dependent ones - are rarely healthy, EXCEPT when a nation is going through a fragile trans-formation with the threat of a superpower 90 miles away.

If Castro could step back and provide an account of what he would do if he had it to do over again many of us would find it interesting.

Many of the anti-Cuba/Castro posts seem stuck in the past. A past framed in the Cold War of bi-polarism and when Communism was a “threat”. Today, Communism is no threat - if any thing, it is the US who through its hegemony and global preditory capitalism supported by the world’s most powerful military with its 10,000 nuclear war head - that is viewed as the threat.

Political prisoners are an issue - and seem to be an issue for most states - including the US. Cuba’s reaction to endless intrusions by the US and its surrogates has made the whole situation troublesome. Many “political prisioner” releases have occured through US diplomatic negoiations - Jesse Jackson, Bill Richardson, Jimmy Carter, Pope John Paul II, to name a few, have all been successful at gaining releases. There has been a willingness to negoiate. Cuba is not a belligerent nation. The arguments come down to due process. And here I must say I know less about Cuba’s jurisprudence. But Cuba should never be equated with the likes of a number of East European, African, Asian, or Middle Eastern styled dictatorships.

The intent, the great pains to build a nation brick by brick in spite of incredible odds seems highly noteworthy, even if there are significant disagreements.

While Mr. Shields has posted the definitive response to dp I would humbly note that the inclusion of this in a post that finds actual trade between two nations peculiar:

“You americans have several social problems, but none as grave as your utter-cronical-almost-epic stupidity. All the arguments that I’ve read here are somewhat patronizing (the situation in Cuba is ok for them but not for us. I prefer to live in the US). That is so rude that I could argue that before anything works in the world, all americans must be exterminated. “

makes dp almost a tragicomic figure. A hint, dp, when calling an entire nation stupid one might check for mispelled wordage, not to mention mischaracterisations of the stance of those who defend Cuba from the slings and arrows of the folks who spout the right wing party line and get all the facts wrong.

Noone here, to my knowledge, called Cuba a paradise or Castro a saint. But Cuba is far better off without Bautista and if a misguided and frankly stupid American policy towards Cuba were not in effect we would have a valuable ally and Cuba would have a bit more financial stability.

Im uncertain as to why the bugs come out of the woodwork when Castro is mentioned, or why they get almost nothing correct about the situation in Cuba. I would advise that folks get used to nations standing up to American hegemony, Daniel Ortega, Hugo Chavez, Lula DaSilva and Fidel are only the beginning.

#70684 by dp on 5/17 at 5:41 pm

I really don’t understand the knocks on Cuba. First, you claim their health care doesn’t match ours - and yet US health cares services was just ranked lowest of the leading industialized nations. And US citizens (when not penalized) regularly travel thousands of miles to India for all kinds of medical care.

Then, the issue of trade between Venezuela and Cuba is raised as if there’s something “wrong” with two nations trading - to my knowledge this is a fair trade agreement. The health care services Cuba provides many other nations (South America and Africa) are not based on the kind of Washington Concensus free trade agreements - with their hegemonic strings. Beyond that I know of no demands Cuba makes when they provide such services.

It seems dp, that ideology trumps all else. But you’re not alone. So, far most of the Cuba critics seem to come from that place.

re: 70301

Despite Nicholas’ revisionist crack ( at least he spelled it right) the truth is what it is...To be certain there is only one authorised party, just as it is true that there are several “illegal” political parties that are in existence in Cuba and noone who is a member of these is jailed.

Politics in Cuba is far more a local matter than most Americans envision and discussions of Cuba always bring out the scurrying little small minded or agendised folks, a real shame.

Per Wikipedia: (only a part)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Cuba#Politica l_parties_and_elections

The national elections for the 609 members of the National Assembly of People’s Power were held according to this system at 19 January </wiki/January_19> 2003 </wiki/2003>. There was only one candidate for each seat. Next to the Communist Party of Cuba </wiki/Communist_Party_of_Cuba>, various political parties are illegally active in the country. The most important of these are the Christian Democratic Party of Cuba </wiki/Christian_Democratic_Party_of_Cuba>, the Cuban Socialist Democratic Current </wiki/Cuban_Socialist_Democratic_Current>, the Democratic Social-Revolutionary Party of Cuba </wiki/Democratic_Social-Revolutionary_Party_of_Cuba> , the Democratic Solidarity Party </wiki/Democratic_Solidarity_Party>, the Liberal Party of Cuba </wiki/Liberal_Democratic_Party_(Cuba)> and the Social Democratic Co-ordination of Cuba </wiki/Social_Democratic_Co-ordination_of_Cuba>.

Of course there are injustices in Cuba, of course there are injustices here in the USA (again I mention Jose Padilla), of course many have fled from an economic hardship caused, in very large part, by US efforts to ostracize Cuba for daring to accept aide from the USSR when spurned by us.

As to the poster who claimed Castro nationalised US owned industry, sorry Charley, the industry abandoned Cuba at the behest of our government. Unable to operate factories without parts or technical skills, Castro turned most into schools and educated the entire population. I would ask those rabid haters of Castro how many despots, in their own experience, actively seek to have an educated populace? Cuba has a higher rate of literacy than do we!

The USA propagandises an awful lot, our nation has much to be ashamed of in fact, one of those shameful occurances was turning our backs on post revolutionary Cuba when Fidel was seeking close relations with us.

I havent been to Cuba in a rather longish time, twice
with Venceramos a very long time ago to assist with the sugar cane harvest, but I havent closed my mind to truth and fact as have some here...........I was reminded by the ceaseless propaganda here of another Cuban revolutionary figures statement about living here in the USA...Dr. Ernesto ‘Che’ Guevarra noted that of all the peoples of the world he envied those who live in the USA the most, because, living in the belly of the beast, we had the most important job of all.......

Max Shields is right in suggesting that I haven’t done adequate research on Cuba.  All that I’ve done so far is to comment on Vidal’s remarks and to respond to Mr. Shield’s posts.  Those comments and responses were based on what I’ve read over the years and picked up anecdotally from travellers to Cuba.  And I thought I made that fairly clear.

Also, for the record, let me say that I was not implying that Shields himself was taking an anti-union stance; if it came out that way, my error.

Some encouraging news, perhaps:  the editorial board of the National Review, a venerated right-wing, staunchly anti-communist publication, came out several years ago in favor of lifting the embargo.  Why?  Because it makes sense to do so.  But Congress is terrified of those 27 electoral votes controlled by Florida.  Still, there are cracks in the facade.

#70438 by David Macaray on 5/16 at 3:26 pm
“Max Shields argues that even as an avowed and open homosexual, GV would be welcome in Cuba.  All I can say to that is (1) I hope he’s correct in that assurance (as it would be evidence of tremendous social growth), and (2) my assertion was based solely on Allen Ginsberg’s unfortunate experiences in Cuba as an openly gay man.”

David, as I indicated in my post on this topic, homosexuality is NOT illegal as you had stated. I also mentioned there is prejudice. I don’t know what Ginsberg’s experience was - for sure Cuba is not a “liberal” nation in the sense of its mores. But, again, homosexuality is not illegal. Also, since this was in Ginsberg’s bio, it’s probably dated; and my let’s take a look at what exists here in the US - the hypothetical seat of democracy, liberty for all, and freedom and how Gays have been treated. Only very recently have we seen some improvement.

“As for unions, I don’t buy any version of the “unions aren’t permitted there, because they aren’t necessary” argument.  Collective bargaining is a fundamental right of working men and women all over the world.”

I didn’t say that. My point (and the link I provided) indicates that there are workers’ rights in Cuba which seem on par with those provided by the kind of unions that USE to exist in the US. Whether there is a bevy of unions seems besides the point. It’s worker’s rights (including collective bargaining) that matters.

For one so supportive of Cuba and Castro it seems, David that you haven’t done much fact checking to support your contention.

Max Shields argues that even as an avowed and open homosexual, GV would be welcome in Cuba.  All I can say to that is (1) I hope he’s correct in that assurance (as it would be evidence of tremendous social growth), and (2) my assertion was based solely on Allen Ginsberg’s unfortunate experiences in Cuba as an openly gay man. 

Ginsberg honestly believed that, as a leftist radical in a revolutionary society, he’d be more or less embraced by the Fidelistas.  Instead, as he notes in his bio, any citizen claiming (on his passport) to be a “practicing” homosexual would not be allowed to travel to Cuba. Incidentally, Ginsberg got the same treatment in Poland and the Czech Republic. 

Leftist socialism did not equate to American-style liberalism (drugs, porn, sexual orientation, divorce, et al).  Soviet bloc countries may have been left-wing economically, but they were always fairly “puritanical” socially. Again, if Cuba welcomes all homosexuals (and not just lefty, celeb Fidelistas like Gore), then, as I indicated, all the better.

As for unions, I don’t buy any version of the “unions aren’t permitted there, because they aren’t necessary” argument.  Collective bargaining is a fundamental right of working men and women all over the world. 

In Communist China, the state runs/owns the labor unions, and look at the shape of “workers’ rights” (not to mention the existence of 77--at last count--Wal-Mart stores in China).  That whirring sound in the background is Chairman Mao spinning in his grave.

#70387 by David Macaray on 5/16 at 12:25 pm

I think the real question is work’s rights. A fairly thorough study of Cuba’s Worker’s rights was undertaken in 2002 provides some answers to that question. here’s the link:
http://www.nlg.org/programs/l_ec/cuba_report_2002.pdf

I’m not trying to defend an economic system, but if that system is sustainable (which, here, means that it is an emerging system which does not exploit human or natural resources to subsist) and works for the people than I think it may be quibbling to speak of “unions” as if having or not having a union is the real point.

Here’s something on homosexuality in Cuba - the article notes that it is not illegal.

http://www.angelfire.com/pr/red/cuba/homosexuality_in_ cuba.htm

As far as representative government, most officials are elected and the turnout is high. Democracy is such a sticky wichet - given the lack of a true representative government in the US - that I’m sure much debate could be had over this issue as it is addressed Cuban style.

http://www.cubanet.org/CNews/y03/jan03/21e1.htm

But it is really your, what seems to be fallacious, point about homosexuality legality that needs to be cleared up. GV would most certainly be allowed to live in Cuba. Whether he would meet with discrimination may be another matter which is pervasive world-wide.

You may want to check this links out.

David Feinberg on 5/16 at 6:39 am

I’m left to wonder why you lived in Cuba for 3 years?

Your ideological differences seem ill-equipt for Cuba. But nothing in your post states what you experienced as a foreigner in a foreign land for 3 years. You did say 3 years you endured to be in a placed you thought poorly of (perhaps you have a stronger word for your deep resentment).

We all know that nothing morally compares to the US -the pinnacle of morality, but certainly we have cracks in that morality that makes you wonder. Then there’s the long (has it been 100 years?) deceased old Lenin and Marx (who’s even older, much older than Lenin) that seems to plague your stay. But again, you never mention how this made your stay - 3 long years - in Cuba sooooo much of a hardship.

Yes, one is left to wonder, Mr. Feinberg. Perhaps you’ll explain.

Excellent interview--excellent topic for Gore Vidal to discuss! 

The embargo against Cuba must be ended--it’s just another example of the insane foreign policy of the US Government.  Our government should lift all restrictions imposed upon Cuban-American relations and commerce/trade, and respect Cuban sovereignty.

Comment #12345 by Christian Welch on 5/15 at 10:50 pm

Re: #70153 by JKoch on 5/15 at 2:41 p.m.

I must take issue on your comments from the very opening line: ‘Neither Scheer nor the aging Vidal seem to know or care much about current events or conditions in Cuba.’

In fact, J, I believe it is evident that at least the “aging” (reeks of buzz-code by the way) but still quite lucid Mr. Vidal, not only qualifies that he doesn’t know what may be happening behind the scenes, he also reiterates what many of us who have been
conscientious - and, I dare say, hopeful US citizens - have known for some time now.

The medical system in Cuba is - and has been for some time - par excellence. As GV also states, you would not know this because of our completely manacled fourth estate. Certainly this condition has become all but absurd in these all but absurd past six years of US calamity.

Jerry Falwell died today, and I sense that your reference was on some level emotionally based. Well, I know exactly who Mr. Falwell was, and while I despise the fool he played, I mourn the passage from this mortal coil of a fellow flawed human being.

I also, it seems to me, quite obviously know a bit more about Fidel Castro than you appear to. There is a perfectly legitimate explanation for this.

The fact that you were not aware of the tremendous advances in medical research, education, and infrastructure taking place in Cuba these past few years was a dead-give away. Again I must lay partial blame on our sad, cheaply-won mainstream media for lack of dissemination of real NEWS. And I dare say that it is extremely likely that we will, in fact receive - following Castro’s demise, all manner of
nonsensical allegations of dealings between Castro and the incestuous, inbred, corporate fabulists you extract so easily out of thin air - i.e. “Uncle Walt” et al.

And as for not speculating upon the future - how much of this interview did you actually watch? The hangers, meant not for weapons facilities, nor even educational laboratories per se, no - anticipatory facilities for - get this - manufacturing of useful and needed items for distribution among a wonderfully hopeful, certainly deserving and undeniably lacking people, these denizens of a potentially new and exciting experiment in humanity.

Yes, M(s) Koch, our beloved US is on the wane - in large part due to our own negligence. It is a tough, and huge pill to swallow. It is not communism - the myth, nor Bushian-rehashed-terrorism - the myth; no, it is the dawning of a new, possibly enlightened and enlightening alternative to the failed Corporate-Post-Marxian-Smithian-Keynesian (aka Greenspanian) templates of the inexorably and well-misunderstood 20th century domination of the economic Leviathan over a multitudinous meek who stand now to gain in reality nothing more - as
time and circumstance has shown - than ghettos, shanty-towns, and cardboard hotels.

Look around you sir/madam, there are neo-Hoovervilles cropping up everywhere in this, our great betrayed wonderful experiment should you choose to look.

As for the Flor-cubians, may the walls our delusional, dry-drunk dullard of a Decider-in- Chief (who, incidentally, recently had the incredible temerity and audacity to present in public with a “gifted” Purple Heart Badge affixed to his left
breast) keep them safe and sound in the former land of the free while a credible- unless and until-proven otherwise new world finds its wings.

Believe me, friend, it could do us no more harm than we have done ourselves.

Regards,
Christian Welch

For some reason , this paticular “interview” has really brought on some significant disenchantment in my mind , both concerning the pretense of two old left wingers romanticizing on Castro and Cuba . I would have to draw the conclusion from this “interview” that the Cuban citizens who have risked their lives escaping from Cuba , some of them forced by so many restrictions and the risk of being detected by Cuban military or police patrols to make multiple attempts to escape - that the real reason for them leaving is Claustrophobia !!! Their fleeing Cuba had nothing to do with oppression , poverty , limited civil rights , suspension of freedom of speech , being jailed for political dissent .
Maybe instead of interviewing Gore Vidal , Mr. Scheer should find the stamina to fight off his claustrophobia , and ask permission from the Cuban government to interview these Cuban Journalists , all in prison .
José Luis García Paneque, serving a 24-year sentence, suffers from intestinal disorders, allergies, asthma and psychiatric problems. Garcia has lost about 80 pounds in prison.

Normando HernÁndez GonzÁlez has stomach ulcers and tuberculosis. He is serving a 25-year sentence.

José Gabriel Ramon Castillo, serving a 20-year sentence, is afflicted with advanced cirrhosis of the liver, circulatory problems and hypertension.

Juan Carlos Herrera Acosta has heart disease, hypertension, asthma and a psychiatric condition. He is serving a 20-year sentence.

Alejandro GonzÁlez Raga, serving a 14-year sentence, suffers from a bronchial condition and severe digestive disease.

Julio Cesar GÁlvez Rodríguez has hypertension, liver disease, cervical arthritis and various nervous disorders. Galvez is serving a 15-year sentence.

Ricardo GonzÁlez Alfonso, serving a 20-year sentence, had gallbladder surgery in 2005, two subsequent surgeries for complications and infections and suffers from a congenital heart murmur.

Pedro Arguelles Moran is afflicted with pulmonary emphysema, severe arthritis and loss of vision with cataracts in both eyes. He is serving a 20-year sentence.

For these and other imprisoned Cuban journalists, their long prison terms amount to de facto death sentences. For many, their only hope is early release and permission to leave Cuba.
I am beginning to believe that truthdig is more about promoting a far left wing agenda and less about drilling beneath the headlines .
This interview is one of the saddest excuses for journalism , the only good aspect being that it reveals that there is just as much to be wary of from liberals as from conservatives . Maybe in truth , Mr. Scheer and Mr. Vidal are actually closet communists .