re comment #69269 by archeon of thrace.  While I do not believe that name-calling is productive, I see a significant difference between Point Blank calling you “pinko peacenick” (comment #69130) and your response that he was an “asshole” and a “fuckhead” (comment #69221).  Had that been its extent, I probably would have “stayed out of it.”  But when you later called Point Blank “a murdering scumbag,” you stepped over the line.

While Point Blank and I represent opposite ends of the political spectrum (he an ultra-conservative while I am a progressive), Point Blank and I share a common experience that it is obvious from your many mumblings you could not begin to understand—an experience that makes us brothers of sorts.  When you used that despicable label, you defamed not only Point Blank but every individual who ever served this country in uniform.

Other than a profound and heartfelt apology, I would sincerely hope I will not see a further posting from you on this topic.  Of course, it’s a free country.  You can say whatever you want.  But you do not have a right to further replies from me.  You forfeited that right when you abandoned civility.

Pointy why not try to address the substance of my points.  I can only assume that your grasp of world and US history is lacking.  You are a disgrace to your nation, and indeed to the princples of “honourable” conduct.

The USA is guilty of genocide and humanrights violation on par with Nazi Germany.  I will list some: 300+ years of slavery, the genocidal policies against the American Indians, the misstreatment of Mexican Americans after the theft of half of Mexico, the CIA and the murder of Salvador Allende, the installation of the monarchy in Iran in the 1950’s, the fabrication of the Spanish-American war, etc….

I suppose you also condone the abuses in Iraq?  Wasn’t the invasion of Iraq dishonourable?  Where are the WMDs?  Those poor bastards, were sent to kill and destroy on false information and lies.  The great travesty is that those young men are forced in to dishonour by a group of men who risk nothing, and indeed have only to gain (wealth wise) from thier dishonour and ignobility.

You of course chose not to deal with the idea that because we paint war as noble, glorious, and honourable, we actually make war easier.  And particularly easier for false reasons.  Especially when we can present the “enemy” as less human than us.  When we deny empathy for the bastards on the other side, who most likely are just victims of the same lying propaganda as ours.  Who like us are forced in to dishonour, by men with personal goals that have little or nothing to do with the grand ideas of liberty, justice, and equity.  Especially as these ideas apply to you and me.

You and I calling each other names is pointless and does nothing to advance the debate.  I am sorry that you had to go and kill other humans Ssorry for you that you where put into a position where that was the only option of self preservation left open to you.  Sorry for those you killed, for similar reasons.  Even though I called you a “murdering scumbag”, I would not assume never having met you that you “enjoyed” the killing act.  I would not presume to “know” what the battle field is like, yet I grieve that young humans are put there to kill each other. Killing and death is a part of my daily life, just not of humans.  I ask no-on to kill on my behalf, indeed I ask everyone not to kill.

angers me that war is always about economics, yet always sold to the people as a fight for liberty.  It is not, it never has been, and it will never be.  I am sure the Iraqi’s are so happy and enjoying their liberal democractic freedoms.

I have clearly stated that those who kill are immoral and evil.  I did not think I had to qualifiy that.  Yes there were relatives of mine that fought in the war.  They too were guilty of crimes - it is irrelevant which branch or service they served in - all war and killing is evil.

The USA, France, Belgium, and Britain continued to be colonial powers after the war.  These same countries used quasi-military force and direct military force to repress selfdetermination movements within thier colonies.  The British did so in India and Kenya.  The Americans in the Philippines, the French in Vietnam, the Belgians in the Congo, the Dutch in Indonesia.

WWII was fought not for liberty, freedom, and democracy, it was fought over money, domination, and power.  It was fought to put money and wealth in the hands of a economic elite.

Point Blank, what did you mean by “care to test me?”.  Was that some kind of threat?  Don’t make me laugh!  Jesus mother fucking christ, you really are a pseudo-macho fuckhead.  It really takes a lot of courage to challenge a pacifist to a pysical fight.  Don’t get me wrong, I have engaged in my share of violence, it is what has led me to understand it is NOT the solution, merely a perpetuation of the problem.

Ernest it is best you confine your comments to me to the issue of the history of the war - my issues with Point Blank originate with his calling me pinko hippy.  I was attacked personally by him, so let me “fight” back in a like manner and keep out of it.  If you want to talk about the history of the war then do so.

War is dehumanizing to ALL involved.  Killing is evil.  There is NO way to justify war.  The history of WWII is not as cut and dryed as we have been propagandized to believe.  The origins of the conflict are complex.  The lies, propaganda, deceptions, intriques, and political motivations of all the leaders on all the sides makes a determination of who is to blame impossible, and pointless.

BTW, didn’t segregation still exist in the USA until well after the end of WWII?  Wasn’t the killing, raping, and abuse of Negros a weekly and daily event in the USA until well after the war?

Both you vets will have to come to terms with the fact that you were forced to dishonour your humanity by going to war.  This dishonour was not I assume of your own chosing, but rather came from forces beyond your control.  The idea that war involves glory and honour, and that in war there is a “right” and a “wrong” side makes war all to easy.  But most importantly it makes it all to easy to get people to fight a war FOR you.

I am willing to take this discussion out of the gutter, and I see that Ernest is willing to discuss issues, Point Blank on the other hand well - pinko, hippy, peacenik, are not any less offensive because of their connotations than the words I used.

Poland, France, Belgium, Holland had governments in exile in England during the war. The assertion that these countries ceased to exist during the occupation of their home territories is quite simply WRONG.  These governments in exile did not repudiate their colonial expansionist argressive imperialist past, nor did they grant independance and self determination upon thier colonies.  Belgium and France used their American and African colonies profits to finance thier governments in exile during the war.

Neither Point and Ernest did adress the issue of the refusal of the USA to allow the entry of Jewish refugees during the war.  Even after it had become known that the death, extermination, slave labour, and concentration camps existed.  Even after it was know that Jews by the 100’s of thousands were being deported to places unkown.  Neither of you addresed the issue of how this contributed to the final death toll of the holocaust.

Hey Point Blank.  I know you and I are at opposite ends of the political spectrum, but I can’t sit by quietly when someone calls a fellow vet a “murdering scum bag.”  I heard enough of that “baby killer” crap when I first came home from Nam back in ‘69.

Re multiple comments by Archeon of Thrace.  I am not going to interject myself into the running war of hostile words between yourself and Point Blank.  Even before you and he began that amusing colloquy I had taken note of the lengths to which you went to try to bridge the gaping holes in your logic.

You are correct in stating that before World War II, the U.S., the U.K., France and Belgium were colonial powers.  Your statement that all of those countries continued to be colonial powers “during” the war is flat-out wrong.  With Hitler’s blitzkrieg came the dissolution of first Belgium, then France.  The governments of Belgium and France ceased to exist.  They became occupied countries.  While Vichy France might, technically, have remained the governing force in places like Casablanca, in reality, all of those places were under Nazi control, as the Vichy government was merely the puppet government of the Nazi regime.  The remnants of what was France and Belgium either fled to the U.K. or joined the resistance—a resistance which the Nazis called “terrorists.”

British Hong Kong and French Indochina were overrun by the Japanese.  So too, the international settlement in Shanghai, leading to the placement of innocent civilians into Japanese internment camps, including my parents.  In my father’s case that included torture by “water boarding”—the same shameful technique being utilized by the fascist Bush regime.

Until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, the only thing preventing a complete Nazi/Fascist take-over in Europe was the brave souls of the R.A.F., including my uncle who was shot down three times during the Battle of Britain, eventually losing his life when later shot down in North Africa during a battle not to extend British imperial domination in that region but fighting your (hopefully distant) relatives in Wehrmacht.  I suppose, in your view, that makes my uncle a—oh, what were those delicate words you used to describe Point Blank—“murdering scumbag?”

The fact that, after the war, France tried to re-establish imperial control in such places as Vietnam, does not alter the fundamental nature of what occurred during World War II. 

I do have a few questions for you, Arche.  Since you identify yourself as someone of German decent, can you tell me, how many of your relatives fought on the side of Germany during that war?  Were they Nazis?  Gestapo?  Have you referred to any of those relatives as “murdering scumbags?”

Point Blank you are a murdering scum bag.  I have great pity for you.

You are right, I don’t believe in god and the bible is fiction and lies.

I suppose you are incapable of empathy, how do you think the mothers of those you killed felt?  Are you happy that you contributed to the measure of hate and violence in the world.

I didn’t say I wasn’t an AMERICAN, nor did I say that I didn’t live in the USA.  I also did not indicate whether or not I had been a “warrior”. You are making assumptions again.  In any case these are pointless and irrelevant to the debate.

You didn’t answer if you were a christian.  I will assume that because you did not turn the other cheek, you are not one.  I am happy that your god will send you to hell.  The wars in the bible occured in the OLD TESTAMENT, under Mosaic Law.  Christ came as the redeemer and prince of peace, and brought the new law - which superceded the laws of Moses.  No more eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth.  But rather giving of shirts, and turning of cheeks.  Christ was quite clear on that point.

Soldiers are murderers.  Warrior is a grandious meaningless word that merely is part of the killing justification.  So my murdering friend which war did you fight in?  Are you happy that you killed for GM, General Electric, Ford, Dupont, etc?

I await your rebuttal to my presentation of historical facts.  Where are my facts wrong?  Show me - bring the proof and evidence.  Until then you are merely a silly ignorant asshole.

Point Blank, why do you assume I am in the USA?

I am anything but an old hippie, and far from a pinko commie.

I got my info re WWII for real history research, not some American propaganda crap.

Please tell me and let me know exactly where I was in error about what I presented as historical fact.  I would be willing to examine your evidence and counter claims.  Name calling and neo-con slander against anyone who does not fall into the GW Bush school of historical knowledge is not enough.

So you have been in battles have you?  Did you kill anyone?  Did you enjoy it?  How did you feel about taking another humans life?

BTW are you a christian?

Soldiers are not warriors, they are murderers.  They kill other humans.  Justification of war is evil.

I doubt that a naive fool as your self has ever pulled the trigger and killed anything.

Bring on the debate asshole.  But be prepared to be exposed for the ignorant fuckhead you are.

Ernest I just read over your comment re mine again.  What I get is that you don’t seem to want to acknowledge that DURING and AFTER WWII the USA, Britain, France, and Belguim continued to be colonial powers - who actively and with military force resisted the self determination movements within their colonies.  These imperialist colonial powers continued after Hitler, Nuremburg, the holocaust to deny full human rights, sufferage, and the econonmic benefits of the colonies, to the inhabitants of those colonies.

If you think for a moment that Britain declared war on Germany because it worried about the human rights, liberties, and freedoms of the Polish people, then you are naive.  If you think that Britain wanted to protect the French republic, again sadly naive.

Ken Burn’s “documentary” is just going to be another glorified whitewash.  It will ignore the much higher price some other nations paided for the war.  WWII was won not by American money, but rather by Russian blood.  It will ignore that the USA and Britain refused to open a second front, so that the USSR would suffer higher casualties, and a greater cost in material and resources,  and be left weakened when the final end of the war would come.  The “real” story of WWII is the the war between the USSR and Germany, everything else is like a cheap side show.  It will ignore that Canada, the USA, and Britain refused to admit Jewish refugees - the USA even interfered in the afairs of Cuba and pressured it to reject Jewish refugees.  It could be argued that the Allied Powers knowingly and willingly contributed to the holocaust by this policy of not admiting Jewish refugees.  There is of course the whole issue of the deliberate bombing of civilian targets in Germany, which according the Nuremburg principles would have been a war crime.

To continue to speak of the war in a patriotic, honourable, and glorified way, does nothing to mitigate the horrors of the war, and indeed only makes war seem tolerable, palatable, and even desirable.  When I see old men talk about the battles they fought, without ever shedding a tear for the dead of the other side just proves to me that out ideas about honour, glory, and humanity are nothing.

Opps, I don’t know how my one post was posted several times….it was not intentional! Sorry - computers can be such a pain…

And sorry Ernest I did not mean to say “Stupid”, but rather “Misinformed”....sorry for the unintentional insult….must try to keep the debate civil….

Ernest you are either naive or stupid.

“Your suggestion that the Allied Powers engagement of the Axis Powers during World War II was not honorable because the U.S., Britain, France, Belgium and Holland were all colonial powers is so absurd that it is diffult to even comprehend the confused and twisted logic that led you to say it.  Yes, those countries had been colonial, and now neocolonial, powers.”

The aforementioned countries were at the time of the WWII full colonial powers, and opressed the colonial masses often quite violently.  These countries practiced both physical and cultural genocide in thier colonies.  The British in particular were very very abusive and RACIST in India.  The Congo was basically a personal feifdom of the Belgian king, the abuses there where on par with that of Nazi Germany.  The Dutch and the French where racist and genocidal in Vietnam and Indonesia.

“Yes, there is nothing in imperialism that we should be proud of.  But, news flash!  World War II was not a war waged to extend the imperial powers of the Allies.  It was a war waged to confront the wars of aggression launched by German Nazis, Italian Fascists and Imperial Japan.”

How did the French, Americans, British, Dutch, and Belgians obtain their colonies? Through wars of agression and expansion, through diplomatic intriques and phoney wars, through lies, cheating, threats, etc. AND often through proxy genocide - ie getting two non-white ethnic groups to kill each other off. NEW FLASH - the second world war was fought to PRESERVE the imperial hegemonies of the afore mentioned imperial nations.

“I do not doubt that there are German-Americans who acquitted themselves well in the fight against Fascism and whose stories, like those of the Native-American Windtalkers, the African-American Tuskegee Airmen, or the highly decorated Japanese-American units, deserve to be told.  But let us not forget the genocidal evil that these brave souls confronted.”

What about the genocidal evil that westward American expansion practiced against the American Indians?  OR the invasion and theft of half of Mexico?  Which brings me to Texas, where American settlers demanded the Mexican government allow them to keep slaves, and when they didn’t they started an independance war.  What about the sham of the Spanish-American war, that was orchestrated by the Hearst family?  What about the virtual totalitarian “private” states of the East Indian Company and the Dutch East Indian Company?

“If there is to be shame, it is that today we have a California Governor whose father was a Nazi”

The fact Arnold’s father was a Nazi is irrelevant

“a governor who once praised Adolph Hitler.”

I grant this is a shame.

continued below:

continued from above:

“Today we have a President whose paternal grandfather, Senator Prescott Bush, funded the Nazi war machine even as son George H.W. was fighting in the Pacific (tells you something about the value of a dollar in the Bush household)”

And so you make my point for me…...include the fore fathers of the Kennedys and the Rockefellers, the Fords, and almost all of American captains of industry before and during WWII

“—a President and a cabal whose vision of a “Unitary Executive” would create an office of unchecked and unlimited dictatorial power, an American Fuhrer.”

This is the unfortunate result of National Socialism masquerading as Neo-conservatism.  Yes I really do believe that George W Bush, and his Cabal are Nazis, fascists, and evil.  Neo-conservatism is Nazism.  It started with Reagan.

I stand by my assertion that WWII, and ALL wars are not honourable.  That WWII was a “good” and “honourable” war is a fiction and a lie.  To go out and kill humanbeings is ALLWAYS dishonourable.  War is never glorious, and individual acts of “courage” are a very small compensation for the great evil and ignobility of war.  For a soldier to be a hero, some other human must die.

Surely even accepting that Hitler and company was evil, you would not suggest the averate German soldier, or munitions factory worker was even remotely evil?  What about the average German citizen?

War is death! War is about money!  War is about power!

What Americans like to forget is this: The Soviet Union, a personal dictatorship of Joseph Stalin, was an allie - it was anything but democractic, and there was no respect for freedom or liberty there.  It too engaged in wars of agression (when Hitler invaded Poland, the Soviet Union invaded from the east, and took half of Poland, a part that Poland never got back).

continued from above:

What about the genocidal evil that westward American expansion practiced against the American Indians?  OR the invasion and theft of half of Mexico?  Which brings me to Texas, where American settlers demanded the Mexican government allow them to keep slaves, and when they didn’t they started an independance war.  What about the sham of the Spanish-American war, that was orchestrated by the Hearst family?  What about the virtual totalitarian “private” states of the East Indian Company and the Dutch East Indian Company?

“If there is to be shame, it is that today we have a California Governor whose father was a Nazi”

The fact Arnold’s father was a Nazi is irrelevant

“a governor who once praised Adolph Hitler.”

I grant this is a shame.

“Today we have a President whose paternal grandfather, Senator Prescott Bush, funded the Nazi war machine even as son George H.W. was fighting in the Pacific (tells you something about the value of a dollar in the Bush household)”

And so you make my point for me…...include the fore fathers of the Kennedys and the Rockefellers, the Fords, and almost all of American captains of industry before and during WWII

“—a President and a cabal whose vision of a “Unitary Executive” would create an office of unchecked and unlimited dictatorial power, an American Fuhrer.”

This is the unfortunate result of National Socialism masquerading as Neo-conservatism.  Yes I really do believe that George W Bush, and his Cabal are Nazis, fascists, and evil.  Neo-conservatism is Nazism.  It started with Reagan.

I stand by my assertion that WWII, and ALL wars are not honourable.  That WWII was a “good” and “honourable” war is a fiction and a lie.  To go out and kill humanbeings is ALLWAYS dishonourable.  War is never glorious, and individual acts of “courage” are a very small compensation for the great evil and ignobility of war.  For a soldier to be a hero, some other human must die.

Surely even accepting that Hitler and company was evil, you would not suggest the averate German soldier, or munitions factory worker was even remotely evil?  What about the average German citizen?

War is death! War is about money!  War is about power!

What Americans like to forget is this: The Soviet Union, a personal dictatorship of Joseph Stalin, was an allie - it was anything but democractic, and there was no respect for freedom or liberty there.  It too engaged in wars of agression (when Hitler invaded Poland, the Soviet Union invaded from the east, and took half of Poland, a part that Poland never got back).

What I don’t understand is why Ken Burns is so successful at what he does.  I’ve always found his documentaries extremely boring.

I am certainly not ignorant enough to await for Burns’ documentary to explain the events of WW II. However, the rest of America who is unaware of the contributions of minorities during WW II will continue believing the ‘fantasy’ reality of how the greatest generation fought for freedom. Minorities contributed greatly to a cause (fighting for freedom)while the country they lived in denied them freedom.

In public school, I love the story we were told of Jesse Owens and how Nazi Germany despised him. Yet, here in America he was a second-class ‘citizen.’ Therefore, why should Owens’ story be mentioned in textbooks? Pointing out the injustices of the past will only serve to make us a better nation.

Documentaries are essential learning tools in this media age because it educates the masses who fail to take an analytical approach to the past.

re comment #68712 By Archeon of Thrace.  Your suggestion that the Allied Powers engagement of the Axis Powers during World War II was not honorable because the U.S., Britain, France, Belgium and Holland were all colonial powers is so absurd that it is diffult to even comprehend the confused and twisted logic that led you to say it.  Yes, those countries had been colonial, and now neocolonial, powers.  Yes, there is nothing in imperialism that we should be proud of.  But, news flash!  World War II was not a war waged to extend the imperial powers of the Allies.  It was a war waged to confront the wars of aggression launched by German Nazis, Italian Fascists and Imperial Japan.

I do not doubt that there are German-Americans who acquitted themselves well in the fight against Fascism and whose stories, like those of the Native-American Windtalkers, the African-American Tuskegee Airmen, or the highly decorated Japanese-American units, deserve to be told.  But let us not forget the genocidal evil that these brave souls confronted.

If there is to be shame, it is that today we have a California Governor whose father was a Nazi; a governor who once praised Adolph Hitler. Today we have a President whose paternal grandfather, Senator Prescott Bush, funded the Nazi war machine even as son George H.W. was fighting in the Pacific (tells you something about the value of a dollar in the Bush household)—a President and a cabal whose vision of a “Unitary Executive” would create an office of unchecked and unlimited dictatorial power, an American Fuhrer.

I as a person of german heritage, am very upset that the contribution of German-Americans during the war is and has been downplayed.  Native german speaking service personel provided an invaluble and unique service.  They like their Japanese-American counterparts, often fought with greater dedication and zeal - against an enemy that was composed of their uncles, cousins, brothers, and fathers.

I for one am actually getting fed up with the whitewash WWII gets.  It was not an honourable war, and it was not fought to defend “freedom” and “liberty”!  And any one who claims that is full of crap.  Britain, France, Belgium, Holland, and the United States all were imperialist colonial powers, who subjugated and abused their colonial subjects.  The only major country fighting on the allied side that did not have oversees colonies was Canada, but it was busy abusing and subjugating the Aboriginals within it’s borders.  The second world war was not about anything noble or honourable, it was about money, power, and economics.  It was no different that the wars the preceded it, nor those that came after.

It is time that we simply aknowledged that EVERYONE who died in that conflict died in vain and for false causes.  It is time that we came clean and admitted that ALL military conflicts are dehumanizing and completely and totally without honour or glory.  Wars create NO heroes.  Every time a person is killed by another person it is an affront to humanity.

What is it the Latino groups want? To prove that the latino community is as bloodthristy, cruel, and inhumane as “white anglo saxon protestants”?  I say sure, come on over share the guilt.

Unless Burn’s documentary brings a new and truthfull perspective about this conflict, I don’t think it much matters whether or not he was ethnically or culturally inclusive.

But a true examination of the war will not be possible, because of the “myth of the good war”.

While historians, like everyone else, are subject to human shortcomings, I think it is important that they be bear a race and class consciousness so that the history they cover is not seen through the narrow prism of an elite worldview.

Latinos, American Indians (and many Mexican-Americans with Indian bloodlines), Japanese-Americans and others have served in the US military and combat, often under very difficult circumstances. It seems appropriate that we should all be aware of this. Related to this issue, see:

“Secret WWII Army Intelligence Unit Has Lessons for Us Now”

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=3312

-  -  -

“Modern consciousness research, World War II lessons combine to win hearts and minds, war and peace”

http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=14783

Your last paragraph is self contradictory. 

Let the Latinos and Native Americans writetheir own history.  Surely it will be better than the tripe I grew up with.

If the only history you know came from school, then to quote a very articulate friend of mine; “You don’t know nuthin!”