“# 60533 Claudia Angeli, wrote that we shouldn’t waste anymore taxpayer money on Pat Tillman’s investigation.” Have you considered the death of Pat Tillman means more to his family and friends than others. “That is natural” It does not mean they don’t feel sorrow for others who have lost loved ones to this war. The difference for the Tillman family, and the reason they can’t let go of investigating his death is that they were lied to by this administration. When Bush spoke of Pat being killed by the enemy, he knew what he was saying was a lie. Fact is: Bush was sent an e-mail warning him not to lie about Pat’s death as the facts were going to come out. As usual Bush didn’t listen, just rambled on, spining lie after lie. The family wants and has a right to know the facts leading up to their son’s death. All families have a right to know the truth about how their child died while fighting Bush’s idiotic war.
You probably wouldn’t care about taxpayer money if it was you being lied to about the way a family member died. I sincerely hope you never have to be tested on this.

Police Officer Credo: Courtesy, Professionalism & Respect.Got it.
Soldier Credo: Truth, Honesty & Integrity.Got it.
Boot Camp Credo:Lead,Follow or Get the Hell Out of the way.  Got it.  Come to think of it it translates the same in Spanish.  What’s wrong here?

Those of you attacking Mickey Z obviously don’t understand what he wrote (which is not surprising, considering how poorly you write). You’re reacting emotionally, which is the opposite of rationality.

Then you attack him for saying he understood why millions of Muslims think of Osama as a hero. Understanding something doesn’t mean you agree with it, you boneheads.

In Vietnam I knew a bunch of guys who enlisted so they could “bring indiscriminate death and destruction on Vietnam.” Angry kids with small penises. It was gooks then, it’s ragheads or hajis now.

there are too many conspiracy theories abounding here.

As a vet myself, let me suggest a simpler explanation that is being overlooked: The military is a very paternalistic organization. Most of us would have gone along with a story of Pat dying a hero’s death for the benefit of his family, than insult them with a wasted death in friendly fire.

Look, I’m as much of a Radical liberal as the next guy, and read Robert Scheer in Ramparts magazine in the 60’s and 70’s; I’m just not dumb enough to attribute something negative like a cover-up where more likely there was a simple desire to spare his family some pain.

It may have been wrong but it was honestly American; respecting people when they are sorrowed by a family member’s death; sparing people pain is part of our national character, who we are as a people, and more power to us for that.

Stan,
What an outstanding series of articles.  Very vivid recounting of the information flow in crisis and its aftermath.

What a tragedy for the Tillman family to have to endure this.  I never met Pat Tillman, but I can’t help to wonder what he would think of the controversy surrounding his death.  I was in Iraq when Tillman was killed, and I remember the media focus on the million dollar contract that he left on the table to join the Rangers. 

I’m sure you know better than anyone, Stan, that the last thing you think about when you are getting some rack in wartime is money.  You think about your loved ones and friends, children’s birthdays you’ve missed, and most importantly, getting yourself and your comrades home alive. 

Every servicemember serving in OIF/OEF is leaving behind something far greater than a football contract when they get on that deployment bird.  Time passes that they will never get back.  They will sacrifice at a minimum - a year with their children, wives, husbands, parents and friends. 

I’m sure Pat Tillman realized that all he left on that table was a piece of paper.  I would like to believe that Pat Tillman would say that he was no more a hero than any other American who puts the uniform on voluntarily and puts their life on the line.

Pat Tillman joined the service because he was told the same lies the american people heard over and over from George W.. Right or wrong, left or right,for or against the war means nothing.
  Mr. Tillman believed in our country and therefore went to war to defend the people of United States. Whether he later changed his views on the war and our reasons for being there has no bearing on the insults and insinuations now being made against a man who cannot defend himself.
I am against the war; and yes I can care and worry about our people in war zones as I march against it.
Unless you have been to war you may think you know what war is like, but you will never truly understand the horrors of and the effects of war that will stay with you until the day you die. “My 82 year old father told me that; the one who fought in World War II, lost his beloved brother and friends over there.” My husband and brother, Vietnam vets concur with that statement, and are also appalled by this administration and Bush’s desire for war and taste for blood. As long as that blood isn’t his family’s or friends.
No one has a right to judge Pat Tillman, or make-up little stories about what happened, when you don’t know. Write nothing negative about this man or any service person until you do a tour or two in Iraq or Afghanastan, fighting at ground level.
It sickens me that the Tillman family has been lied to and treated like imbeciles. Send Bush, Cheney, and the twins, to war and leave the children of those who truly believe in honesty, integrity, and loyalty to one’s fellow countryman here at home to do the honest work.

I love Pat Tillman for being an atheist, Chomsky-reading marine. He was an individual, unlike partisan boobs to the left and right who don’t piss before talking it over with their comrades.

I can understand Stan’s anger at Mickey Z’s article, because he has a personal connection to Pat Tillman and his family. The trouble with essays that build on individual example is not unlike the trouble with war that builds on the blood of individual soldiers: both require stripping away genuine humanity in the service of whatever it is writer is writing for or the country is fighting for. There’s a lot more on Mickey Z’s mind than this, but certainly this is one of them: when we lionize and buy into the myths of a valient soldier, whether it be Pat Tillman or some other self-sacrificing fodder of any war, are we being romotely honest with ourselves either about the man or the war? It’s a valid question.

It drive me nuts that this age-old tactic works like clockwork every time.  Take a docile, sheltered, over educated, yet highly opinionated member of the leisure class and pit him against a woefully uninformed member of the working poor and who benefits?  I understand Tillman was a well paid football star.  I’m referring to whom he represents.  If you don’t believe our armed forces are the working poor, check out their tax returns.  Who needs CoIntelPro when a bonehead like Mickey Z shoots his mouth off?  Thanks for drawing attention to this, Stan.  Keep up the good word.

One year ago I would never have thought of this but now… 

Pat Tillman was against the war in Iraq.
Pat Tillman was very high profile.
Pat Tillman was a recruitment poster for the war in Iraq.
Did Pat express his anti-Iraq war views?  Yes.
Did he express them to his commrades?  Probably.
Can he speak now?  No.
Did the pro war military cover up the circumstances of his death?  Yes.

Was he fragged for anti-war activisim?  No one can be sure at this point.  How sad is that?

Just before I read this article I was thinking about how much the lunatics on the far right and far left have in common… and here I was confronted with yet another example.  Vicious personal attacks and over-the-top ranting with little or no basis in reality are their stock in trade.

Interesting to me that so few from the far fringes have ever worn a uniform, but sound off like they think they are experts on the military.

So very annoying.

Thanks Stan.  It was pleasure talking with you after your talk in Grand Rapids, MI last year.

I thought you and your readers might be interested in the connection between Pat Tillman and Yoni Netanyahu:

Yoni(Jonathan) Netanyahu has largely been forgotten in the US (his younger brother Benjamin is well-known as a former Israli Prime Minister) Yoni led the 1976 Raid on Entebbe.  The truth of his death has been covered up by the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) for the past 30 years.  His brother Iddo had to perform his own investigation into his brother’s death.  Iddo has published two books about his brother’s death (the latest 800 page tome is only available in Hebrew) In a recent article, he called the government’s official story about his brother’s death “ridiculous”. 

I feel the Tillman family would benefit from talking with Iddo (he’s a doctor in New York State.  Besides the coverup of their deaths, both Yoni and Pat were remarkable men, driven totally by integrity and honesty and lived their lives intensely.

I believe Senator James Webb could assist the Tillman’s in their battle for the truth.  Webb’s only son is a Marine grunt in Iraq, he is on the Senate Armed Service Committee, and as a novelist he has dealt with themes of betrayal, justice, and honor. 

Coincidentally, Webb’s 1991 novel “Something to Die For” features a Marine whose death is covered up and used by the President for political purposes.  Even though Webb is a bit too “patriotic” for my tastes and I disagree with his assessment of the Vietnam War; I trust him.  He is a man of integrity.

For he who will die
Is he who kill

Joe Strummer

I have not read the Mickey Z article nor am I interested in doing so. I have seen others that are probably similar. I’d like to elaborate on some other thoughts expressed here by the posters.

First, one does not have to serve in a War to understand the stupidity and uselessness of a war. Reading about all the wars that have been fought on this planet over bloody human history should convince people that absolutely no good has ever come out of any war, not even WW II. If humans really understood that and worked harder at solving the underlying causes of war we would all be better off.

Anyone who says that they joined the military to serve their country is either naive, a fool, or a liar. These are the lies young foolish males, and now females are told to get them to do something that no one in their right mind would ever do. While one does not have to be in a war to understand war, one does have to be in combat in order to understand the nature of why we fight. It is a hedonistic experience. All senses are heightened. Colors richer, smells stronger, everything is sharp and acute. It is dancing on the sharp edge of the sword and it is exhilarating. Soldiers fight for themselves and each other because of a bond that is never there in the more mundane life most people lead. Team sports is about the only thing I can think of that comes close.

If it is so important that we have a military ready to defend our country, and I would not deny that there is a case for that, then I would suggest two years of compulsory military service for every male and female. The total service would be four years but after two years you would have the option of another 2 years of military service or two years of a domestic or foreign service. The only exceptions would be for severe medical reasons.

I was 26 when I was drafted and then sent to Viet Nam as a crewchief on a Huey. I felt it was my duty to serve my country even tho I had just finished serving 2 years in Africa in the Peace Corps.  I didn’t know much about the war but it did not take long to see that the skepticism about my government I had acquired in the Peace Corps was made stronger by what I saw in Viet Nam. I came back grateful for those protesters. I was at the burning of the Bank of America in Isla Vista. By doing what they did they saved countless lives. i still do not understand the hate that some veterans have for them. They say that if it weren’t for the protesters hadn’t done what they did that we could of won in Viet Nam. They fail to realize that it was not ours to win but rather the Vietnamese to reconcile. I wonder if they feel deprived of their glory. There was no glory to be won their. There was only saving our own lives from a situation we should not have been in.

And so it is with Afghanistan and Iraq. By joining the military, good people become the iron fist of oppression for the rich and powerful of not only this country, but of every country who has ambitions of empire. And that is one of Pat Tillman’s legacy. Just as someone else pointed out, to do the right thing is to do the right thing, not the easy thing. Watanada has done the right thing and understands its consequences. To be against this war is not enough. One has to not participate in it. I feel bad about Tillman. But I also feel bad for all the other guys who have died to further not good ideals but bad ones for bad people.

Leftist, non-men?  Please.  Are we bringing sexism into this?

What we’ve done to Iraq is unforgiveable. In a short time, the lies of the Bush administration became clear to Pat Tillman. Enough time has since passed that these crimes should be clear to everyone. There’s no excuse not to know. Bring the dupes home now.

Great work Stan!  Mickey Z is one uninformed person who too many look to and think him knowledgeable and truthful without questioning his need for self gratification.  He has no idea what type of man, solider, patriot or scholar Pat was.  And, it is also regrettable that Pat isn’t here to debate the issues with “All seeing, all knowing Mickey”.

As for Claude Angeli… Mr. Angeli, you don’t get it either!  Although his death was very tragic the questions remain ... why did the government officials lie and cover up how he died? ... was there CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE in the fratricide?  How did one of “the best of the best” [Army Rangers] get shot by one of “the best of the best” [Army Rangers]?  Was it BAD training or something else?

Mr. Angelie, ask yourself, Does how FAR beyond the military general staff does this go, and WHY?

I can understand where Stan is coming from. Though, I myself, wrote an entry in my blog that is not completely sympathetic to Pat Tillman. Stan writes that “Under no circumstances was Pat Tillman interested in “bringing indiscriminate death and destruction upon Iraq and Afghanistan,” any more than my volunteering for Vietnam in 1970 was based on a wish to “bring indiscriminate death and destruction on Vietnam.””

I agree with Stan that Mickey went over the top on Pat Tillman, however, what was it that both Pat and you, Stan, signed up for? Last time I looked, the military, no matter of what country, is in the business of killing. For whatever grand or noble reason(s) for engaging in this war or that war, which might or might not stand up in the light of history, this is what the military is about.

Ultimately, Pat Tillman should be judged for what he actually did. And what he did was he signed on to serve in the military of a country that was, and still is, engaged in one blatantly illegal war and another war that is pointless and both of which are lost. He could have, like Ehren Watada, refused to be deployed when he figured out this went against what he thought he signed up for. But he did not. You can be as complex an individual as you like; the bottom line is who are you serving and who are you not. That is the way folks staring at the wrong end of a gun HAVE TO look at it and so should we.

I am upset to see the “left/right” separation here.  I was quite unaware of “mickey z” until this article and I am disgruntled with his comments - - but because of what he says not what “party” he belongs to.  Overall, I would have to say there are far more “left” leaners opposing this administrations actions in iraq than “real” conservatives - but it is nice to pretend that we are one “american” opposition.

I thought Mr. Tillman was great.
I opposed the war from the get go but thought him the most couragious for his reasoning and resolve - his BELIEF that he was a “liberator” and “patriot”.
It upsets me more to know that he realized he was deceived and felt maybe he had made an incorrect analysis of what his participation was for.  I think rather than attack each other - the free press and political affiliation we should make the military heirarchy and the government accountable - it serves no purpose to divide on an issue like this.

Stan,
Your ability to verbalize the facts are once again appreciated by many of us.  Don’t ever stop.

Todd: I agree with your sentiment, but pause to consider the irony of making a character attack (“Leftist non-men like Mickey”) against someone you don’t even read, let alone know (“I haven’t read Mickey Z”) ... in response to an article highlighting how it looks when someone makes character attacks against someone they don’t take the time to know.

Stan: excellent article. Thank you so much.

Upon returning from the Vietnam War, I promptly joined the activist Vietnam Vets Against the War organization.  Interestingly, the prevalent feeling at the time was not only intense animosity toward those who keep us in that ill advised war, but also those fellow protesters who had successfully evaded going there.  We initially adopted the (admittedly irrational) position that you had not earned the right to dispute the war unless you had been there.  Essentially, we believed there were both right and wrong reasons to oppose something.

Over time, that view moderated.  We still pretty much despised those who had not gained first hand experience as to why the war was so stunningly stupid, but it became more important to save lives of our comrades in uniform than to question the motives of others who said they too wanted the war ended.  Ending it was what counted most and by whatever means.

As to the present war in Iraq, it comes down to this.  Self defense is important and anyone who does not believe that is hopeless naive.  We obviously need a strong military and those who devote their time to that endeavor should be given strong support.  Similarly, there are wars genuinely worth waging if all else fails. The first Gulf War was probably one of those. 

HOWEVER, as to this second Iraq incursion, it was not only unjustified, it has been executed by our present “leaders” with a previously unimagined level of incompetence that borders on outright treason.  It is so bad it demonstrates we desperately need a Constitutional amendment adding incompetence to the grounds for impeachment.  It certainly is not worth one single further life destroyed or maimed.  Even on a purely mercenary cost/benefit ratio economic analysis leaving out the mental and moral aspects, it cannot justified to continue even if we “won” which looks to be impossible now thanks to the four years of fiasco that have brought us to this point.  There is no way, even if we stole every last drop of oil there, for “benefits” to exceed the costs.

Consequently, I do not care what is done to end it so long as it is ended immediately and our troops removed from Iraq.  Although Bush has been wrong on just about every word coming out of his mouth, perhaps he was right in saying “Either you are with us or against us.”  He is against the American people getting out of that particular fiasco.  Let us not lose sight of that unifying fact even though we might internally disagree as to why. 

So, get off your duff, stay together and take militant action to let your ineffectual Congressional representatives and presidential candidates know that either they neutralize Bush’s Iraq war delusions themselves or we will find someone else who can.

Death of Pat Tillman was a horrible mistake.  There is no way to equate this accident. To spend more time on this is a waste of taxpayers money. I am sorry for the family and friends.  Let him go there is no justice to be found in going further. His life is no more nor less than any other serving member of the armed services.

We ALL need to STAND up for a TRUE American Patriot, Pat Tillman.

Visit://OsiSpeaks.com or http://OsiSpeaks.org

Keep it up Stan. I love your writing.

I haven’t read Mickey Z but I am not at all surprised. Leftist non-men like Mickey don’t understand why we, the soldier, do our jobs. Our reasons have nothing to do with Halliburton, empire or anything else althought I must admit that those corroding influences are making it harder and harder to put our all into our efforts. It is about being with soldiers and serving selflessly. Selfless service is something so remote to the Jacobin left that it can hardly be explained. Tillman would have understood though.

To hell with Howard Zinn and Chomsky and go read Kirk and Russell instead. One doesn’t have to be a Marxist to hate imperialism. Plenty of REAL conservatives hate this thing too.