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A World Where Lies Are True

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Posted on Mar 26, 2007
museum
AP Photo / Ed Reinke

An exhibit depicting two archeologists coming to very different conclusions while unearthing the same skeleton is part of the Creation Museum, now under construction near Petersburg, Ky.  Ken Ham’s $25-million facility will argue that God created the Earth and its inhabitants just a few thousand years ago—never mind what modern science says.

By Chris Hedges

“Before they seize power and establish a world according to their doctrines, totalitarian movements conjure up a lying world of consistency which is more adequate to the needs of the human mind than reality itself; in which, through sheer imagination, uprooted masses can feel at home and are spared the never-ending shocks which real life and real experiences deal to human beings and their expectations.  The force possessed by totalitarian propaganda—before the movements have the power to drop iron curtains to prevent anyone’s disturbing, by the slightest reality, the gruesome quiet of an entirely imaginary world—lies in its ability to shut the masses off from the real world.”

                        —Hannah Arendt, “The Origins of Totalitarianism”

In the middle of the lobby of the 50,000-square-foot Creation Museum in Petersburg, Ky., a 20-foot waterfall tumbles. Two life-size figures of children with long black hair and in buckskin clothes play in the stream a few feet from two towering Tyrannosaurus Rex models that can move and roar. The museum, which cost $25 million to build and has a sea of black asphalt parking lots for school buses, has a scale model of Noah’s ark that shows how Noah solved the problem of fitting dinosaurs into the three levels of the vessel—he loaded only baby dinosaurs.  And on the wooden model, infant dinosaurs cavort with horses, giraffes, hippopotamuses, penguins and bears.  There is an elaborate display of the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve, naked but strategically positioned so as not to display breasts or genitals, swim in a river as giant dinosaurs and lizards roam the banks. 

Before Adam and Eve were expelled from paradise, museum visitors are told, all of the dinosaurs were peaceable plant-eaters.  The evidence is found in Genesis 1:30, where God gives “green herb” to every creature to eat.  There were no predators.  T-Rex had such big teeth, the museum explains, so it could open coconuts.  Only after Adam and Eve sinned and were cast out of paradise did the dinosaurs start to eat flesh.  And Adam’s sin is a key component of the belief system, for in the eyes of many creationists, in order for Jesus’ death to be meaningful it had to atone for Adam’s first sin. 

The museum has a theater equipped with seats that shake and gadgets that spray mist at the audience as the story of God’s six-day creation of the world unfolds on the screen and the sound system rocks the auditorium.  There are 30-foot-high walls that represent the cliffs of the Grand Canyon, floors that resemble rocks embedded with fossils, and rooms where a “Christian” paleontologist counters the claims of an “evolutionist” paleontologist.  It has the appearance of a real science museum, complete with a planetarium, a gift shop and plaques on the wall with quotes from creationist “scientists” who have the title doctor conspicuously before their names.  It has charts, timelines and graphs with facts and figures.  It is meant to be interactive, to create, like Universal Studios, a contrived reality with an array of costly animatronic men and women as well as moving dinosaurs. 

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The danger of creationism is that, like the pseudo-science of Nazi eugenics, it allows facts to be accepted or discarded according to the dictates of a preordained ideology.  Creationism removes the follower from the rational, reality-based world.  Signs, miracles and wonders occur not only in the daily life of Christians but in history, science, medicine and logic.  The belief system becomes the basis to understand the world.  Random facts and data are collected and made to fit into this belief system or discarded.  When facts are treated as if they were opinions, when there is no universal standard to determine truth, in law, in science, in scholarship, or in the reporting of the events of the day, the world becomes a place where people can believe what they want to believe, where there is no possibility of reaching any conclusion not predetermined by those who interpret the official, divinely inspired text.  This is the goal of creationists.

Other creationist museums are going up in Arkansas, Texas, California, Tennessee and Florida.  Museums are part of a massive push to teach creationism in schools, part of a vast Christian publishing and filmmaking industry that seeks to rewrite the past and make it conform to the Bible.  The front lines of the culture wars are the classrooms.  The battle is one we are slowly losing.  Twenty states are considering changing the way evolution is taught in order to include creationism or intelligent design.1  Only 13 percent of Americans in a 2004 Gallup poll, when asked for their views on human origins, said life arose from the strictly natural process of evolution.  More than 38 percent said they believed God guided evolution, and 45 percent said the Genesis account of creation was a true story.2  Courses on intelligent design have been taught at Minnesota, Georgia, New Mexico and Iowa State universities, along with Wake Forest and Carnegie Mellon*, not to mention Christian universities that teach all science through the prism of the Bible. 

The museum is an illustration of the movement’s marriage of primitive and intolerant beliefs with the modern tools of technology, mass communication, sophisticated fundraising and political organization.  Totalitarian systems usually start as propagandistic movements that ostensibly teach people to “believe what they want.”  This is a ruse.  This primacy of personal opinion, regardless of facts, destabilizes and destroys the primacy of all facts.  This process leads inevitably to the big lie.  Facts are useful only if they bolster the message. The use of mass-marketing techniques to persuade and convince, rather than brainwash, has led tens of millions of followers to accept the toxic totalitarian line by tricking them into believing it’s their own.  Ironically, at the outset the movement seemingly encourages people to think “independently” or “courageously.” 

At first all have, in the totalitarian belief system, a right to an opinion, or, in short, a right to believe anything.  Soon, under the iron control of an empowered totalitarian movement, facts become worthless, kept or discarded according to an ideological litmus test.  And once these movements achieve power, facts are ruthlessly manipulated or kept hidden to support the lie.  Creationism is not about offering an alternative.  Its goal is the destruction of the core values of the open society—the ability to think for oneself, to draw independent conclusions, to express dissent when judgment and common sense tell you something is wrong, to be self-critical, to challenge authority, to advocate for change and to accept that there are other views, different ways of being, that are morally and socially acceptable.  We are beginning to see the growing intolerance that comes with the empowerment of these ideologues. There is a bill in the Texas Legislature to strip all mention of evolution from Texas school textbooks and institute mandatory Bible classes for all students.  This is just the start.

And yet, coming from the modern age, these Christo-fascists cannot discount science.  They employ jargon, methods and data that appear to be science, to make an argument for creationism.  They have created parallel research and scholarly institutions.  They pump out articles in self-published journals to provide “evidence” that homosexuals can be cured, that global warming is a myth, that abortion can cause breast cancer, that something they call “post-abortion syndrome” leads to deep depression and suicide and that abstinence-only education is an effective form of birth control.  This pseudo-science has seeped into the public debate.  It is disseminated by nervous and timid media anxious to give both sides in every argument.  Those who have contempt for facts and truth, for honest research and inquiry, are given the same platform by the press as those who deal in a world of reality, fact and rationality. 

The movement desperately needs the imprint of science to legitimize itself.  It achieves this imprint by discrediting real science and claiming creationist science as true science.  All attempts to argue the creationists out of their mythical belief, to persuade them with logic, evidence, scientific inquiry and fact, will fail.  They have created a “fundamentalist science.”  They know they cannot return to the pre-Darwinian innocence that let them believe the Bible alone was enough.  They need, in the midst of their flight from reality, to reassure their followers that science, science not contaminated by secular humanists and nonbelievers, is on their side.  In this they are a distinctly modern movement.  They seek the imprint of science and scholarship to legitimize myth.  This is a characteristic they share with all modern totalitarian movements, which co-opt the disciplines of law, science, medicine and scholarship to give a modern veneer to their primitive and superstitious belief systems, systems that allow the rulers to dictate reality and truth.  The “paraprofessional” organizations formed by the Christian right, organizations of teachers, journalists, doctors, lawyers and scientists, mimic the activities of real professional groups.  They seek to challenge the legitimacy and the power of the traditional organizations.  The duplication of the structures and methods employed by the non-totalitarian world, the use of pseudo-science to dress up fantasy, is slowly undermining our legitimate scientific and educational institutions.  It is destroying the foundations of our open society.  It is ushering us into a world where lies are true.

* Correction: A representative of Carnegie Mellon University states “Carnegie Mellon University does not teach a course on intelligent design. The contemporary issue of intelligent design is sometimes raised in discourse in courses such as Christianity and Science: A Multidisciplinary Approach. This fulfills an elective in the religious studies minor.”

1 Scott LaFee, “Local scientists, doctors and professors talk about ‘intelligent design,’ ” The San Diego Union-Tribune, F-1, June 8, 2005.

2 Frank Newport, “Third of Americans Say Evidence Has Supported Darwin’s Evolution Theory,” The Gallup Poll, Nov. 19, 2004, http://poll.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=14107&pg=1.


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By Jim H. 6/26/2008, June 26, 2008 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

—————————THE UNIVERSE
Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
Is a lie, and impossible superfluous nonentity!
————And that goes “double” for “Ghosts”!

————————————OR
————————-Find a “Beginning”!

Report this

By Jim H. 6/2/08, June 2, 2008 at 7:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: DevinMacGregor, June 1 at 6:49 pm

Devin, to even ‘acknowledge’ the existance of that pile of dog shit they call the “Bible” you are playing into the hands of the rotten charlatan thiefs who use that lump of stinking detria to confuse and muddle the minds of the naive fools who get sucked into their criminal schemes to drive the whole world mad.
Beware!  Now that you are hooked into referring to that “dung heap” (Thomas Jefferson) and countering their diatribe with references therefrom, they’ll keep playing with you (if you let them) until they drive you totally nuts! 

Don’t expect any attempt by those hopelessly delusional idiots to explain why they are renouncing REASON in favor of fairytales! Once indoctrinated, they are like cocaine addicts. If they were ever to admit they are not sure of their “Ghost”, their inflated ego would instantly deflate like a punctured balloon “PHLAAT”, and they would crumble up mumbling to themselves, in a corner, like the “Hunchback of Notre Dame!
None of those fools have the strength of character that it takes to admit to themselves and the world that they were conned into being a patsy for a bunch of conmen. And, that they have finally come to there senses after finding out there is no possible proof of, or ‘way’ to prove any of the garbage regarding a “Ghost”.
  ===============================================
———————-Find a beginning before you claim
—————————You know what “caused” it!

Report this

By Jim H. 6/2/08, June 2, 2008 at 7:34 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Sue, June 1 at 5:31 pm
——————————-DELUSIONS   REVEALED!
NOSY Sue Says: “(Question?) What is the business of this site?”  Imagine!  After writing all that CRAP about ‘her’ “ghosts” she apparently is lost?

Sue, if you want to know about this site, either go to the top, or if that don’t help, see Dave!

Dave, knows everything about this site! And he MEMORIZES all the GREAT comments that ‘I’ provide for the enlightenment of mental cases like you, Sue!

Dave is helping me, (Un-solicited of courrse!) to spread the word about all those rotten fakers that torture the minds and bodies of innocent children and naive fools like you, Sue, with mesmerizing indoctrination into their criminal intrigue ponzi-like web where they spread their poison of ‘leprosy-of-the-mind’ that is used to hook you into a life of robotic slavery so you will follow their orders and entice others, just as you are trying to do with your asinine “Ghost Stories”!  You are a ‘good’ little “robot”!
But, who was the FIRST one to inject you? with the absurd idea that “Ghosts” are real? When did you first learn of this? How old were you? did you ever ask your mother if it was true? Or do you believe anythinng that anyone tells you?
Did anyone ever suggest to you that you should not believe something that cannot be PROVED POSITIVELY?
Or is that one of your many mental problems?
You use the WORD “delusion”, have you any idea at all what that WORD “DELUSION” means?
When you finally learn the meaning of the word delusion, compare your “ghost” ‘beliefs’ with the definition of delusion?  You may be suprised to learn that you are very seriously DELUSIONAL!
Then, go see a ‘Shrink’ immediately!

—————————THE UNIVERSE
Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
Is a lie, and impossible superfluous nonentity!
————And that goes “double” for “Ghosts”!

Report this

By Sue, June 2, 2008 at 5:55 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Many times Christians have been referred to as being delusional within this site. As someone who has worked with mentally ill patients in the past (ones that have been hospitalized due to mental illness against their will) I thought it would be interesting to study up on what delusional really means. Here is a thought:

Psychiatric definition

Although non-specific concepts of madness have been around for several thousand years, the psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:

  * certainty (held with absolute conviction)
  * incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
  * impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

These criteria still continue in modern psychiatric diagnosis. In the most recent Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a delusion is defined as:

  A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everybody else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person’s culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith).

There is some controversy over this definition, as ‘despite what almost everybody else believes’ implies that a person who believes something most others do not is a candidate for delusional thought.

Now my question is this: Are the millions/billions of Christians throughout the world all mentally ill? Better yet, only on one subject, their faith in God Almighty?
Since we have a Christian President, Christians in Congress and the Senate, Doctors, Lawyers, nurses, school bus drivers, teachers, President’s of Colleges, fireman, policeman, and so on and so on…...is our world in deep danger because of these delusional people? How do they hold down jobs, pass tests, accomplish so much and lead other people with “this subject only” disorder? Believing all of these believers are delusional in itself unrealistic since a person does not pick and choose the delusions he sees or understands- you cannot be part-time crazy just like you cannot be part-time sick. You either are or your not. Of all the times I have dealt with people with mental illness I have never seen one that had a normal conversation more than 30 seconds. They are not up to par in dealing with life, other people,  and do not function properly in the environment. They are in need of therapy/medications and may never recover in some cases.
So if you believe that so many people are seeing things that are not true and these very people are helping to run the world…you’ve in your mind got a big crisis on the horizon. If this is what you believe my thought is this: is it scary inside your head? Because I know if I believed that….I would be rather freaked out! I mean I would be saying “get my kid off that Christians school bus before he does something crazy”, call the cops (a non-christian one) we need help, I need surgery… find me someone who doesn’t believe in God, and so on and so on. That attitude is downright flipped out and beyond applying the word delusional to.

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By DevinMacGregor, June 1, 2008 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Again more claptrap from Sue.  Sue I do not have to prove your god does not exist.  You have to prove that it does.  To which you have not and will not be able to.

Stop acting like some martyr.  You belong to an old cult so get over it.  Christians aren’t perfect *sniff*

Well why not? Isn’t the holy spirit perfect?  Yet it allows you to be imperfect.  If you are imperfect then how can your interpretations be perfect?

Your flippant use of logic is laughable.  Spare us your semantics and prove Zeus, Osiris, Odin, then is not real or even Santa Claus?  All of them cults who said the same thing you do that their god was real and they have a relationship.  And though Santa is not worshiped as a god per say you still need to prove he does not exist and not that he does not exist in capacity as described but does not exist at all.  Santa at least does not threaten people will eternity in hell but a simple lump of coal.  At first that gift may seem worthless but the recipient could use the coal to write with or use it to help keeps their family warm or help cook a meal.  See it teaches people to be unselfish without threatening them because we all know Christians all behave themselves knowing that Hell exists.

What is boring is the same christian claptrap Sue that we hear from Christians over and over again who act like they are being logical when they are not at all.  What is even funnier is that you act like we have not heard that argument before.  Like Dave saying he listens to both sides when he does not.  He tries to validate his bronze age belief by finding things today to validate it.  The same as some Christians who say Genesis is not literal but allegory.  Do you see a problem in that?

Archeology is not proving the bible to be true but quite the opposite and that a group of Jews much later in time than what we have been historically told decided to codify their beliefs due to fear of their culture being lost.

Studies have also not proven prayer at all but quite the opposite.  Funny how people only focus on the hits and not the countless millions of misses but then again they will explain that one away that those people simply were not faithful enough or well God works in mysterious ways.  Puritans used to string up a quaker or two whenever the weather turned bad and calamity struck their community saying God was angry at the quakers for not worshiping him correctly and God was anger with them for allowing them.  This kind of religious ostracizing exists today.

So what is next?  Evolution is just throwing logs off a cliff and a cabin forms at the bottom?  Or some more crap about Evolution and the Laws of Thermodynamics.  Or some more BS of saying monkey when one does not even know the argument is ape and know the difference between an ape and a monkey.

I know Muslims who will point to their Koran as being scientific as well and thus proof it is correct.

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By DevinMacGregor, June 1, 2008 at 7:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dave that is not proof of anything at all other than lack of knowledge of why something is.

We have no idea exactly WHEN Job was written.  It is pretty funny the date you try to use as authenticity when others claim Moses has not even left Egypt yet.  Moses would have to predate Job wouldn’t you think?

Report this

By Jim H. 6/1/ 08, June 1, 2008 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: ve, May 31 at 8:10 pm

Dave says: “—-Jim H is back.” 

And, I swear, I never even asked Dave to tell everyone!  Aint Dave nice to be so kind?

Now, be sure to read all my great stuff!

Dave MEMORIZES IT! So, if you forget what I write, ask Dave to fill you in. He’s a good scout, you know.

—————Here’s some News from Africa:
  “The time has come to abolish Christianity”
———-By Alan Tacca of The Kampala Monitor
The time has come to abolish Christianity, said Alan Tacca in the Kampala Monitor. Most Western societies are now only nominally Christian. Even for churchgoers, “God is clearly a cultural construct.” True believers are a dying breed, and Catholic and Protestant churches alike are struggling with a chronic shortage of priests and ministers. Rather than bemoaning this trend, the West should embrace it. Religion is doing little these days but provide fuel for conflicts: Muslims against Christians, Hindus against Buddhists, and everyone against the Jews. So let’s dispose of the Christian God, the way the Western colonial powers got rid of African deities long ago. Back then, colonizers “actively undermined those gods until they were stripped of all dignity. It is now time to declare their God also primitive.”

All references to God should be removed from currencies and national anthems, sand-blasted off government buildings.

  “Only after faith in the supernatural is gone can people take responsibility for generating “virtue and beauty” in “the human realm.”

—————————THE UNIVERSE
Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
Is a lie and impossible superfluous nonentity!

———————THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground.
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end.
RELIGION’S POLLUTION IS NO SOLUTION FOR DAWIN’S EVOLUTION
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence.
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!

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By Sue, June 1, 2008 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Now seriously Jim H. what is your business on this site? Is it to bust the chops of the Christians that may tap in on it or to make the non-believer look insane? Or maybe both? I have looked at what you write and it is just downright weird crap. You make statements that relate to nothing and have no meaning but hateful content. You don’t represent the opinion of the others and totally ignore the topics being discussed. You are not serious about anything you say. Your sense of humor is unique but probably funny to none. I think you need to look at really why you are here at all. Right now you are like a fly at a picnic that you either ignore or try to shoo away. Consider yourself “shooed”.

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By Sue, June 1, 2008 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Myronh:
You have been a vehicle in convincing me to go ahead and write the book I mentioned a few postings back. You made some crazy statements about a “cult” and being 1 of someones many wives (which is not of the Christian faith but is practiced by the false religion of Mormons). There are many things that I will clarify in my book and you are the fourth person to give me some direction at some of the contents that it will contain. At least you made me the “best educated and best writer of this guys wives. I know a writer and they have encouraged me recently, so has my husband, and friends. God confirms things to us through all people and situations (not just Christians). I see that there are many questions that people like you have and I have done by best to answer you - not always to your liking and approval and that is understandable. However, that doesn’t mean that their aren’t others that will understand what I communicate through my life with Christ. You have given me some insight into your needs as well as some of the others who have posted here. I thank God for the pain that took me out of my busy work right now so that I can focus on doing His will within this book. The funny thing is I stopped the medicine and the pain is getting better over the past 2 days. Praise God! smile

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By Sue, June 1, 2008 at 6:32 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

mitochondria,
You answered just like I thought you would. Talking about ghosts and the same old crap because you have no evidence. The Word is our evidence. It is the manual to life. It is self proving. Why don’t you put your effort where your mouth is. Get a Bible out and try and disprove it. Many people like you have tried to do that time and time again only to become believers. I tell you what…....when you figure out the basis for life why don’t you come back and post it here. Back to the original question many days ago. Who is Jesus to you? You have answered that….you believe He was a liar and you think all the billions of Christians in the world are liars too. That’s okay by us we are used to it - your feelings are already revealed to us in advance within the Word. However, by the power of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit we will continue to bring the world the Christ. Amen.

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By mitochondria, June 1, 2008 at 6:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oh come on now .... You can’t be serious and if you are you have problems . Delusions are one of two things say psychologists . A delusion is Paranoic in nature or Grandiose . Which type of delusion are you under Sue ? It’s not up to me to prove anything since I say God doesn’t exist anyway . It’s up to you to produce evidence and so far all I’ve heard is jibber jabber about a ghost that flies around the room waiting for you to do something so that he can come to your rescue . That’s nonsense and you know it and perhaps you should look up the dictionary definition of the word “CULT” :” A system of religious worship especially with reference to rites and ceremonies ” (Like Baptism and blessings) ,but I suppose you deny meanings of words too. You are brainwashed Sue and you’re beginning to sound more and more like a child that’s confused . A teenager seeking attention but is to immature to understand the meaning of education. I also notice your peers have infiltrated this board . They are like a mystic support group who also think as irrationally as you. You all are under the influence of fables and fantasy’s in a supernatural world that doesn’t exist. You folks need to reread the article ....

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By Sue, May 31, 2008 at 9:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dave,
I’m impressed with your ability to focus on both sides - can’t wait to see what you come up with later….please stay with us…..I’m very interested to watch how God is going to use you on this site. I can see you have a special gift and that you enjoy it. That’s very cool. God’s timing is awesome!

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By Sue, May 31, 2008 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What the heck is wrong with you???? Do you read what you write?
Come back when your writing reflects at least some sort of normal thought pattern activity.

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By Dave, May 31, 2008 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Jim H is back. I do not even have to read his stuff it’s the same old drivel over and over again. OK Devin MacGregor proof, one at time Biblically and Scientifically.

1.  Job 26:7  
He spreads out the northern skies over empty space; he suspends the earth over nothing. The book of Job was written approximately 2000-1800 B.C.

Astronomers have discovered that there is a great empty space in the North. It contains no moving planets and shinning stars. By turning their telescopes to the South, East and the West, men may behold countless millions of stars invisible to the naked eye but when the telescope is set exactly to the North there is a great empty space. For this astronomers have been unable to account. They did not know until recently that there was such an empty space.

SCIENTISTS in the US have discovered a vast tract of space devoid of galaxies, stars and dark matter.

The team at the University of Minnesota said the void was nearly a billion light years across and that they had no idea why it was there.

“Not only has no one ever found a void this big, but we never even expected to find one this size,” astronomy professor Lawrence Rudnick said.

I guess they do not study the Bible it sure seems Job knew about this 4000 years ago (I wonder who told him).

See I study and look at both side. So if you are up to it let’s LEARN.

God bless

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By Sue, May 31, 2008 at 9:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mitochondria,
Nice try at changing the subject again…..but back to my challenge. Where’s your proof that Jesus doesn’t exist and that God is not in control of this universe right now? Where is your proof that the Bible is a lie. Show me the proof it is like any other religion (which it is not a religion but a relationship). I’m waiting for the proof not your noise. I’m not as passive as you accuse me of. Always ready to search “My Father’s Word” for truth.
While you are at it please come up with the answer to the basis of life - I’m waiting.
DevinMacGregor
Since your are chiming in come with some proof of your own. Prove to me that I don’t have a relationship with Christ, that I don’t have answered prayers, that I don’t walk in the Holy Spirit and that I don’t see miracles throughout the world everyday; since I’m connected with over a half million volunteers and missionaries there are tons of miracles continually. Prove to someone who is content with their life that the life they live is not real. You cannot - you can only mouth off it’s a cult its a bunch of lies blah blah blah blah blah. I’m getting really bored at the same type of statements. Show me some proof that Jesus isn’t standing in the room behind you right now. And prove to me you aren’t going to a place called hell at the end of your days on this earth. Christians are people not perfect - if you know someone who prays for something - so what - as long as they understand the Father is in control - all is well.

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By DevinMacGregor, May 31, 2008 at 7:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Dave:

All one has to do is look around to see God. I was 40 years old when I learned that from a 3 year old child. Amazing!

Devin:  ... and then the 3 year old reached under the coffee table and pulled a piece of gum from under and stuck it in its mouth.  The 3 year old later picked its nose and wiped it on the furniture.

Why is it that Christians do not seem to bother saying what else the 3 year old does.  They love to use that fallible ... out of the mouths of babes ... strategy.

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By DevinMacGregor, May 31, 2008 at 7:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Andrew,

Why is it that Christians pour on the persecution complex?  Why is that Christians bleat out what they think are facts and act like they are offering anything counter to science and act like they are challenging anything?

I have yet from one board to the next to see any Christian who can understand any of the principles that they say Science is wrong about.  I only see belief and convoluted logic to include constant circular reasoning.

I rented Heroes from work.  It so grossly misstates what evolution is and interjects this spiritual element into that that here we have a whole other group of people who are going to misquote evolution and think Man jumping in the air and flying is evolution.

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By DevinMacGregor, May 31, 2008 at 7:32 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

No, Dave.  Archeology is not new.  Biblical Archeology has become a joke.  It is NOT proving the bible happened at all as described.  Proving a town did exist does not prove any claimed story about said town actually happened.  This is no more evidence that to find Baltimore, open up a Tom Clancy novel and conclude that a dirty bomb went off there.

Good old Nebby NEVER destroyed Tyre.  Tyre was never forgotten.

What you just stated in your last paragraph is a bunch of clap trap.  It is hollow and meaningless.  You are making accusations that anyone who does not believe the stone says what you think it says is simply a sinner and deaf to your belief.

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By DevinMacGregor, May 31, 2008 at 7:14 pm Link to this comment
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Sue,

What a bunch of crock.  You state nothing but belief Oand have not offer any fact.  Prove that the word you speak of was actually written by some entity other than man.  Saying one will find out when they die is not a fact nor proof of anything.  It is just more cult brainwashing. There is no period other than at the end of your sentence.  When you die remember to come here and post for us.  Remember to go on live TV and tell the world ... Hey I am Sue and I am dead.

Christianity’s length of time proves nothing as the Egyptians believed the way they did for 1000s of year.  Why no stock in Osiris?  Do you have any stock in any of the other savior conquered death gods that have existed in man’s history?  Do you have any facts that they do not exist and never have?

What you have is simply a belief which helps you cope with life.  This bullshit that needless suffering is needed for trials etc is more cult brainwashing.

Btw many Christians do in fact pray to get things and not simply pray to be closer to God.

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By mitochondria, May 31, 2008 at 4:27 pm Link to this comment
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You are writing with invisible ink again. You are claiming a ghost is real and trying to convince us of it though you know it’s not there . ( except maybe in your imagination ) Every god has been “THE” god according to the people who worship them whoever they may be . Do you not think that the Hindu’s believe like you that there god is the righteous one. If you were born in India would you not worship there trinity? If you had been born Greek would you not worship the Greek “GODS” or if you were islamic the ISLAMIC version of GOD .God is simply myth. Wherever he exists in the platitudes of an individual"s god . Is your concept of god not different from other people’s concept of god . Is a Baptist’s the same as a Methodists or a Catholic the same as a Jew ? Come on Sue get real!!
Conservative Christianity is trying to undermine the truth and they will stop at nothing to block research that would continue to dispel the notion that we were created by some mythical ghost through fantasy and fable. They simply have to much invested in the lies !!

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By Sue, May 31, 2008 at 5:44 am Link to this comment
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1st off there is no “fact” that what Christians believe in is mythical. You make statements like Christianity came about a couple hundred years ago or something.???????? Are you joking and for real? Since you made this statement give me the “facts” as you call them. No opinions or studies - that is a bunch of crap. Put down your facts and I will demolish it with the direct word of God. Your facts are going to come from man’s word, I guarantee, and my facts will come from God’s word. And let’s see ....who will the readers believe. Man or God. That will be the real question. That will give me a way to break into this forum full force. Cults are brainwash not truth. They do not bring people to God but tear people away from Him. Talk about a cult. Money is being spent to prove to you that you were a monkey. Talk about crap to control people with and wasted time - come on. These guys are just looking for jobs - high paying ones and don’t have a clue. Sad but true. Maybe you could build a big shrine with your scientist’s faces on it and bow down waiting for the next lie to arrive on their tongues? I would like you to back this up also with some proof… “It’s been proven time and time again by those who allow death based on an antiquated myth and written by the medicine men of yore (what the heck -who are these guys?) who only sought control of the ignorant and wanting”. You see we don’t have to prove anything to you because the proof will come the day you die. Period. We believe those who do not follow Jesus will go to hell and those who do will not - instead they will reign in a place called heaven and will worship Him eternally. We believe our God is alive - not dead like every other religion practiced out there (with the exception of your god(s)Scientists they are also still alive but are more like money hungry geeks seeking the mighty dollar instead even appearing like a man made god of some sort) We believe that we are not an accident but were specifically created to have a relationship with God. We believe that God created everything you see, use, eat, smell, feel (including angry and love) and that He did an excellent job of it. That again is the real difference in you and I.

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By mitochondria, May 30, 2008 at 1:32 pm Link to this comment
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Doesn’t change the fact that your entity is mythical and that calling upon him/her in any setting is a tear jerker clouded by all sorts of emotional dogma. A cult is just a cult whether it be Christianity or Scientology . There is absolutely no difference in the two . The original article is right on Sue and you are the proof that I offer on this thread . Mr. Hedges hit’s the bullseye when he characterizes the Christian rights movement (and that some will go so far as deny such participation) as an attempt to discredit real traditional science and make claims for a mythical Creationism . There goal is to dispel scholarship and legitimize myth..When it comes to looking forward with the hopes of someday curing all that ails man myth will stand in the way while millions expire just to worship a ghost ....It’s been proven time and time again by those who allow death based on an antiquated myth and written by the medicine men of yore who only sought control of the ignorant and wanting . That’s the origin of the following of Jesus Sue .

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By Sue, May 30, 2008 at 10:19 am Link to this comment
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Hi Myronh:
Just to wanted to clarify the reasons why Christians pray. Contrary to what the movies show we do not pray to receive things from God like some genie. Why we pray is to have a relationship with Him and to tell him our feelings, desires, and to respond to Him. As Christians we do know that God is in control overall and we know that His will will be done in the long run. However, our prayers reflect our heart to connect with Him not to get things are way. God could remove the pain from my back right now if He desired this to be. Comfort does not develop us it is the trials that do. You do not build a strong person by making his life easy. Hard work, pain, and sticking to the mission always has deep rewards. I’m sure you know that by the accomplishments you have to show in your life. We are not Christians because we want it our way - we are Christians because we want it to be God’s way in our lives. You have some really good questions and I’m glad you are asking them to me. Honestly if you didn’t ask the questions and just said you believe me then I would think you were nutty. Pain is acceptable by those who are happy and have peace. Is it easy - no way - is it necessary - yes. See Myronh, once someone accepts Jesus he knows inside that it is no longer about himself but a bigger more important picture that he is apart of. The focus on Christ creates the mental attitude of submission of ones life resulting in a true freedom that I cannot explain. It would be like explaining what colors look like to a blind man. Another reason it is easier (not easy but easier) for us to accept the bad with the good is because we know this is a temporary place we are in right now. I can see if someone does not believe that and this is “all they have” how devastating it would be to lose a leg, loved one, suffer financially, etc. etc.
I do think Christians are helping Myronh, we do feed the hungry, assist the poor and homeless with housing and dental care and help to provide medicine where people are sick and dying throughout the world. There are many other places Christians are that provide help even to those who hate them. However, we don’t care about that - remember it’s not about us at all - it’s for Him.

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By Myronh, May 30, 2008 at 6:42 am Link to this comment
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If the effects of religion weren’t so bad, it could be funny. However, there is nothing as sad as the time and money wasted on the worship of something that no one has ever seen or has any positive evidence of existence. Prayer to this something is the most ridiculous action ever conceived by mankind. There is positive proof that prayers are not answered. Of coarse anyone can pray for a sunny day for their outdoor party, and there is at least a 50-50 chance it will be nice; unfortunately, there is 100 percent evidence that hundreds or thousands of prayers for the restoration of a severed limb have never been answered. If this something is so powerful and benevolent, why out of the thousands of limbs lost isn’t there at least one person that would be worthy of restoration? If, as you Deists proclaim, suffering may be part of the plan, why would anyone worship something that apparently enjoys witnessing the suffering of man, which according to the Bible, included his only son. This type of thinking and logic belongs in a horror novel or a movie such as Saw. It is time for the Deists to awaken from their horrible dream and start making worthwhile contributions to the well-being of mankind.

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By mitochondria, May 30, 2008 at 6:26 am Link to this comment
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To Sue : It is sad that you have to endure this even though the God that you worship “created” a PERFECT body for you.To think that in the midst of his creation he would insert mutations that would cause you pain and misery just for the fun of it. Kinda like a test pattern to see what kind of grit you’re made from all told . Well , let me be the first to tell ya that it’s sick. Don’t ya agree ? Maybe this GOD inserted these mutations every time we were out of line through the years and he/she were mad at us . Now does that make rational sense to you ? Imaginary God fits in where ever you wish to place him .

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By Sue, May 30, 2008 at 6:02 am Link to this comment
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Dave,
Great books to recommend to Myronh! However, I disagree with encouraging him to tell a Christian on their death bed or with a dying spouse/relative on of his view of their belief. It could break their heart and hurt them deeply. I don’t think the Christian would believe it to be true (what he believes) but I do think it would surely make them feel bad. Myronh did the right thing in encouraging her not to worry. No one knows where George is right now but God. I don’t think you really wanted him to tell her that….I think you are just maybe challenging him to think about what he believes.

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By Sue, May 30, 2008 at 5:41 am Link to this comment
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Hi Myronh:
Your comments are very logical as you are looking from the outside in. Let me clarify something really important here. Christians are not, I repeat, are not “special” in the way that they will not suffer. Sometimes we suffer more than other people as a test of our faith (book of Job reveals this type of suffering).  Personally I have been in pain for over a year. Every day all day. I recently had a operation to relieve the pain and instead of relieving it the pain has amplified to the point I cannot return to work as scheduled. At least not yet. I cannot sit in a chair for more than 5-10 minutes, ride in a car, go to a movie, go out to dinner. I can only walk or lie down. Why is God letting this happen to me? Well it could be for several reasons…....none I will know until it is over. Test of faith, strength of character, so I take the time to write a book I’ve been needing to write, ..whatever a soldier needs God will provide it someone way some how. Jesus suffered more than anyone else - I am not better than Jesus - by far and why would I think God would treat me better than an only son who is holy.
Healing does sometimes come with death. Sometimes it takes disease and death to bring upon salvation to an individual (lost a relative to cancer last year who came to know the Lord at the 11th hour). Death to a Christian isn’t “death” as you know it. It is the beginning of life. We are human and we all (non-believers and believers) will endure human things. Laughter, sadness, sickness, etc. But those that trust in the Lord will overcome what is given to them one way or another - through faith - they will make it through. I didn’t tell you my story so you would feel sorry for me…but I’ll tell you this. If you wrote me back one day and said to me - “I know who Jesus is now and I believe”.... I would be happy that God gave me the time to talk to you and tell Him thank you for the pain because it gave me the time at home to tell Myronh how very much you love him. I’m glad you said what you said to your mother-in-law because guess what? Only God knows the heart of a man…..and the fact that he didn’t go to church is not the point. He may have asked Jesus into his heart and therefore she will see him again anyway. THere are different level of Christians in the amount of faith they have. I feel that God has given me many trials to build me into the soldier I need to be through these events. Blessings to you.

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By Dave, May 29, 2008 at 8:20 pm Link to this comment
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Myronh, you say “I told her that when I die I want to go wherever George goes, wherever that is, because it will certainly be a better place with the presence of George. I am confused, why did you not tell her what you believe. Talk about fake and not real. From some of the writing’s here I believe Sue’s faith and beliefs are solid and real. It sounds like Sue will tell it like it is, good or bad. Stop comparing Christianity with media religion. As for prayers for healing not answered, one has to understand prayer, it is not ask for something and bam there it is. sometimes the ultimate answer for healing is death.  If you like to study both sides I challenge you to read “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel and “Evidence That Demands A Verdict” by Josh McDowell.   

God Bless

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By Myronh, May 29, 2008 at 5:21 pm Link to this comment

Comments made by Sue are primary examples why I shudder to think of all the harm that religion does to mankind.  She said Christ gives cancer victims hope. I have known many cancer victims (friends and relatives). Most were dedicated Christians; all died an agonizing death. Where was G/J when they needed him? I witnessed the grief of my Mother-in-law at the death of her father (George), as she was afraid that he would not be accepted into God’s kingdom because he wasn’t an active church member. I reminded her that her father was one of the kindest, most generous, most respected, hard working persons in the community, and was loved by everyone. I told her that when I die I want to go wherever George goes, wherever that is, because it will certainly be a better place with the presence of George.

Again Sue fails to understand that Atheists are not trying to prevent anyone from following their faith. However, we do want to minimize the heartbreak that the deist has as they die from cancer or their small child is killed in an accident, knowing that their prayers for healing were not answered.

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By mitochondria, May 29, 2008 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment
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I stand by my most recent comment about the ignorance that goes along with undermining education just so you can promote a ghost and spirits . Once people are educated properly they generally separate themselves from cultish folly . Many gods have been espoused’ and all have been dubbed “THE ONE” of the times but no one has ever actually seen any of them because they are only imaginary and nothing more. Some teenagers searching for identity will be taken by all of this in a moment of peer pressure and sad music but as life goes on many move away from such nonsense when they realize how doubtful it seems to be in light of reasonable rational thought. Some hold on because of parents who insist upon it or it’s no inheritance for you. The same with employers . If you are thought to be religious and one day announce you are atheist you won’t be around long . Cults are extremely powerful..

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By Sue, May 29, 2008 at 5:12 am Link to this comment
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I do understand where you both are coming from and also understand that due to your lack of spiritual insight. You mentioned the “newest discoveries in science” and also the “basis of life” in a former e-mail; what I would like to know is what you feel the basis to life is? As to the “newest discoveries in science” - this statement is the proof they “haven’t arrived yet”. We believe we have complete truth, a purpose for life, and a future of hope. It is not complex and searching, it is final, clear, organized and complete. In your world many have died before you not knowing the truth yet because you don’t even have all the data yet. In our world we and those before us of know the same info and it has never changed. Truth cannot change. This is the overall picture that God has given us in scripture -unchanging truth. It is not a fad, the latest info but steadfast & infallible. If you take your story to the deep jungle, place it on a huge movie screen in front of 10,000 people,how many do you think are going to believe you? I’m sorry, but it just doesn’t make sense. Nothing happens by accident and to convince someone of that takes a lot of brainwashing. Millions of people are coming to Christ each year - why? Because truth is simple, hope is necessary (just ask any cancer victim) and we seek all seek our true purpose. You continue to call us foolish. You see foolishness to us is waiting around for some person who has the name of scientist to reveal truth to me. The scientist is your god. You worship them and believe and follow them. Everyone has a god of some sort. Would you be willing to die for your belief -if not -why not? If you aren’t going to hell then what would be the risk? Because many of us risk our lives for the love of Jesus Christ, and if that makes us foolish in your eyes - we say “so what”. It’s not a shock to us and never has been. Only what God thinks about us matters. That is why we take the high road - live a life full of adventure - and know with peace that we will reign with God forever. As for your mother-in-law Myronh… I am sorry for her illness and for the family struggles.  Her mind is lost and ill now -it is malfunctioning. It is not the great life that she lived that makes her a Christian but the fact that she accepted Him into her heart. And since that heart (pertaining to soul) already belongs to Jesus that part is final. I just guided a 93 year old woman to Christ 4 weeks ago. She lived her whole life without Jesus but now she has a destiny. Whether your mother-in-law is officially dead or alive in anyones eyes is not the important thing here. But her destiny is. A fetus also has both a brain and a heart and both are stopped at the time of the abortion. This is why we consider it murder. Yes, our bodies decay and that is not the issue or subject - our soul is the subject to the Christian and your belief is you just don’t have one. Someone is right and someone is obviously wrong but we all have a right to tell our story to the world while we are here. You are going to have to get used to us because according to the Word we aren’t going anywhere until Christ returns.
Maybe we could meet in the streets of LA before that and tell some of the homeless people your story. Let’s see how well it goes over there. The real test of what is true will come after death. If we are wrong and you are right - well then we lose nothing - however, if you are wrong and we are right - well that’s a sad story with “no end” ever at least for you. I suggest that you stop focusing on fake TV people, priests on the news, abortion clinic bombers, and the other oddball negative pieces on the news, and seek deeper for truth and the real people behind the scenes. You are both deeply uninformed of what a life in Christ really is.  You won’t find it anywhere but in the Word of God. The study of our world is not separate from God - it’s the false and changing information in society that is.

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By Myronh, May 28, 2008 at 7:20 am Link to this comment

Mitochondria’s comments on 05-27 are 100 percent relative to the real world we all live in. It is so foolish to spend an entire life fantasizing about a new life after death. I have living proof of what happens when the brain dies. My Mother-in-law has Alzheimer’s disease. She has been the most dedicated disciple of Jesus that I have ever known. This includes her participation in all church activities, donation of time and money to every cause, helping those that are sick and disabled, etc. She never uttered a curse word, consumed alcoholic beverages, drugs, or smoked; she was literally cloaked in purity. Today she is angry all the time, curses, refuses to bathe, only recognizes her children, but not their names. She has no recollection of God or church. Where is G/J when she needs him? It is truly a shame that the money wasted in the name of religion isn’t being used to improve life on earth, as it is obvious that life ends when the brain ceases to function. Our end is no different than that of all of the other life on this earth. We will eventually decay and return to the elements of the earth from which we originated.

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By mitochondria, May 27, 2008 at 5:32 pm Link to this comment
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Again we are straying from the topic . Obviously everyone isn’t going to believe like everyone else . I think that’s what this is about and based on the newest discoveries in science (molecular biology)  and all of the current natural sciences I am receiving confirmation after confirmation scholatically . On the other hand there are people speaking out of turn who have no insight with regards to evolution and what the process entails or does to enhance the findings and advance knowledge of physiological systems and identification and treatments for diseases . T.V. ministers are outraged at the thought of science suggesting life began in an entirely different light many millions of years ago and because of the consistency of that theory we can look at and understand the basic premise of all life in a much more reasonable , rational way. The fact that it undermines all of Genesis is secondary to the reality it projects . Instead of trying to understand the theory in principal clergy are on the attack and they look foolish . Many hold doctorate’s in totally different fields and they know the educational process but they deny educational principles and deliberately berate thousands of scientists who have agreed with evolution as a foundation . They immediately contend that all of them are wrong and they are right based on the writings in a book written decades ago that even the best scholars call hearsay and contradictory. Then when scholars point this out to believer’s they cry foul and immediately interject the victim card . It’s sad that we have people who are willing to risk the lives and well being of millions of people in the coming decades because they insist there belief in ghosts and spirits are more important . That is so selfish in my eyes because I know there have been thousands of god’s and they weren’t real so what makes anyone believe this guys any different . Do you not think that those who worshiped god’s before you felt that there god was the ultimate god and that only he could change the world . It is time to change that perspective and look at spirituality in a totally different light

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By Sue, May 27, 2008 at 7:31 am Link to this comment
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Please accept by apology for I did not intentionally mean to ignore your questions.
Yes, I totally understand why atheists are concerned about the role religion is playing in others lives.  I am disgusted as some of the things I see going on in the world. However, because I truly have a relationship with Christ and walk with many others who also do I am on the inside looking out not on the outside looking in. A true Christian is not perfect or should never claim to be. We struggle like everyone else and have battles of our own. ......... Christ lived and died (sacrificed)on this earth to remove our sins from us so that we can have a relationship with God through him. By accepting Christ we are freed from our own sin and can approach God’s throne through prayer while promised eternal life. Greedy people out there often use the cover of Christianity for gain. It is sad but it happens. It happens in everything out there if you just take the time to notice. However, people are also sinful even after salvation and therefore must continually focus on Christ to stay on the path that He would desire for us. You are not seeing the good that is done by real followers of Christ when you hear something bad about someone who claimed to be a Christian. So yes, when someone hurts another person delibertly, bombs an abortion clinic, tries to convince you they are sinless, you can fairly assume they are either a LIAR or have strayed from the faith.
The reason missionaries go into other countries and do not hide their faith is through obedience to the scripture regarding the “great commission” (this directs us to spread the news of Christ to all nations). It’s not an option for a Christian it is necessary for obedience. These missionaries also go into into 3rd world countries, deep into jungles and remote places where people would never be reached. The people are poor and there is much risk & loss, not gain (except for spiritual). They risk getting diseases, eat weird foods that are sickening, and risk death on these trips. But it is all a matter of the heart.
On the question on whether I am telling the truth to you (the fact that I love Jesus and have a relationship with Him -all other truth is revealed by God himself not I)- well the same rule would follow as you test things daily in your life. You would learn my character by by questioning me, watching my reactions to others, how I live my daily life behind the scenes, what I focus on (what is important to me),etc. I guess it would be good for you to just know someone who truly follows Jesus so you could watch and understand what it is really like instead of having to rely on the ‘world’ to show you the bad guys. That is not accurate information to base an opinion on. Police Officers are a wonderful blessing in this world - however, if you relied only on the news to understand who they are you would begin to think they just beat people, pick up hookers, and write speeding tickets. That is not an accurate picture of a policemen. Many years ago I had a friend who was a policemen and I cannot begin to say how much of his life he gave for others. He was unselfish and treated others with respect. He risked his life daily and even took the time to have a great sense of humor. No, he was not a Christian that I know of - but a great policeman. What the media shows about some sicko is not a reflection of a Christian either. I do not consider myself religious. I am a follower of Christ though. There is a difference. A true Christian’s basic character and intentions will be good - but remembering that no one is perfect is important - we all fall down and get back up again and again. Just like children riding bikes we make mistakes. I hope I was able to answer your questions accurately and I am grateful that you took the time to ask me again. Thanks.

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By mitochondria, May 27, 2008 at 5:27 am Link to this comment
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How do I get rid of this guy? What can I say to him that will make him believe in the same ghosts and spirits that I do . Oh come to me “holy ghost ” and tell me what to do. This character refuses to believe that you’re the one true god out of thousands that will carry him off to the spirit world . He doesn’t realize he doesn’t need to worry cause you’ll give him an eternal life . Make him passive and receptive like us . Keep him vulnerable and wanting(yearning)fantasy and fable while he ignores the basis for all life . Don’t allow him to discover truths about life cause then our gig would be up. All that we have worked for would be maginalized and there would be no more fun and games at the pearly gates . Help him see the visions that aren’t really there .

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By Myronh, May 26, 2008 at 7:09 pm Link to this comment

Sue,

You never answered my questions regarding pedophile Priests and Ministers obtaining the services of prostitutes. Are they following the orders of God? Or, are they lying about their devotion to God/Jesus? How do I know that you are telling the truth? If I was to meet you on the street, what proof do I have that G/J hasn’t told you to kill me? Why would someone kill a doctor that provides abortions for women who don’t want a child or who’s life is in jeopardy if the baby is carried to full-term? Was the killer only following G/J commands?

Can you possibly understand why atheists are concerned about the role that religion is playing in our lives? Why isn’t the freedom to practice religion in your church, home and family adequate? Why are missionaries needed to spread the gospel? A good product usually sells itself; advertizing is only needed to increase the profit margin. Who holds the religious stocks? Someone or some entity is getting richer whenever religion is sold to the weak and vulnerable.

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By Jim H. 5/26/08, May 26, 2008 at 5:30 pm Link to this comment
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Re: Sue, May 26 at 11:34 am

Sue says: “I do not believe in Ghosts—-(that) look like something on a Saturday movie.” “—-my ghost is omnipresent ( Present everywhere, but) “you cannot see—- it—-” (Sorta like Santa Claus, and Mickey Mouse, you know?)
Sue says: “I believe that people—-should share their—-evidence(?) of why and what they believe.”  (I’ll tell you later!)   
(Sue calls the above evidence) (It’s)—-revealed—-”.(?)      (What “evidence?)
But only Sue can see it! She lives in a fantasy world where all the “Fairy Tale” characters abide!  And the “Cow jumps over the moon”! After High diddle diddle the cat’s in the fiddle—-”.
Proof is not important to Sue, She even believes we put a man on the Moon!
And that Bush is not sadistic!

I tell you, Sue believes everything she hears!

—————————-THE UNIVERSE
Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
————Is an impossible superfluous nonentity! 
—————————-J.H.  5/8/07

————————THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground.
Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end.
Religion’s pollution is no solution for Darwin’s Evolution.
Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence.
The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind! 
——————————J.H. 8/29/06

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By Sue, May 26, 2008 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment
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I have ignored you up to this point for the very reason of your unacceptable demeanor in responding to others. I don’t know who you think you are but you do not have the right to demean people because they believe different from you. If we all acted the way you act and respond to others on this site - we would be in a “hell” of are own right now! Just in case you don’t know it respecting others and being nice isn’t just taught by Jesus and the Bible but by the “world” too. So overall you can be nice to other people and believe me don’t worry, no one will mistake you for a Christian. Chill out. You’re giving the non-believer a really bad name by your behavior.

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By Sue, May 26, 2008 at 12:34 pm Link to this comment
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Thank you for your response and honesty. There is one thing I would like to clarify though. I do not believe in Ghosts as the world would portray. The Holy Spirit that I believe in is one of the three parts of God and lives within a Christian. It is omnipresent and does not look like something on a Saturday movie. You cannot see the Holy Spirit - it is what guides us into all truth though.
I do believe that people, no matter what they believe, should share their thoughts, experiences, and evidence of why and what they believe. As I was sitting very still while recovering from my surgery (not something I prefer to do - sitting still) I realized that the world in which we live in so detailed. I watched a bird in my garden pick weeds (funny their food is something we try to eliminate) and take them to her babies nest. I watched the bird pick the weed, fly in the opposite direction, turn around, land on a limb a short distance from the nest and then go to the nest. It repeated this time and time again in the same pattern. Even a bird is intelligent enough to protect it’s family and the future of it’s existence. The bird has never read a book, watched a movie, or graduated from college. However, he is smart enough to survive. I feel that as humans we are built (which yes, involves creation) the same way at even a higher level. Deep down we have the instinct of what it takes to survive daily, but I also believe that we have a soul that requires the same. It is not a fairytale existence to live a true Christian’s life. Many of us go through many trials and hardships just because we have chosen to serve our God. The Bible is not about happily ever after until you leave this world - it’s all about putting up with a ton of crap until this life is over. I’m in for the long haul because my mission is to complete what I was made to do. Nothing else matters to me but to complete the mission in a way that is acceptable to God not man. The economy is in trouble, our government is in a pitiful state, the so called medical scientists are poisoning us daily with drugs, and you know what - it really doesn’t matter. You and I are both dying - you think it’s over and I think it begins after death. That is basically the difference between what we really believe. I believe in heaven and hell and you believe it ends here the day you die. People who want to discredit others or what others stand for try and seek the negative to connect them to. It is not about who is right and who is wrong in my eyes or my heart. It is about who is going to have eternal life with Christ and who has not had the opportunity to at least hear the truth and decide for themselves. I do not blame you because you don’t believe what I believe. It is not a Christian’s job to convince anyone of truth. Again that is an act of God and He alone chooses to reveal Himself and His truth through people (they are just instruments). The fact is He has not called you - at least not yet. If and when you are revealed truth by God you will know it. He comes to people in many ways and in many circumstances. Understanding that truth is why we cannot become angry at our differences. Take care.

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By mitochondria, May 18, 2008 at 10:49 am Link to this comment
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I don’t have any problem with anyone believing anything they want to believe but I do have a problem when they try to teach it as absolute proof of a god or spirit ghosts and everyone else should be made to believe just like them or be shunned by society . If you go back to the original topic of this piece you will see that the author was questioning whether or not Religion should play a part in science since , like in your own experience ,it is totally subjective . I’m not saying those things you claim didn’t happen but I am saying that I, like you, have an imagination and I could label any experience in life and credit anything I like with the goodness and ignore the bad when it’s harmful to my ego or sense of realism . My point is ID is just a sly way of introducing creationism and trying to equate it to science without allowing objective testing . Science doesn’t care about god , God has never been questioned ,but it seems as though religion has a problem with science and I think it’s because they see it as a threat to the overly egotistical format that is being challenged by evolutionary thought . That is a scary road for religious leaders so they’ll lie ,cheat and steal to make it go away. In the meantime they are undermining the truth and understanding of children everywhere . It’s selfish and greedy in my opinion ....

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By Jim H. May 18, 2008, May 18, 2008 at 5:50 am Link to this comment
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Re: Sue, May 17 at 4:24 am

(SILLY) Sue Says: “—-Being skeptical—-is a sign of normal intellegence.” “I—-am skeptical—-I do not trust people—-and am always cautious—-.”

“However, when it comes to things “not of this world” the rules are—-different”. I see—-(a GHOST’s) presence through—-my conversations—-(with “IT”) (And, I just love Mickey Mouse!)

(Of course that means I was not “SKEPTICAL” of the “PEOPLE” who convinced me to believe in GHOSTS, but I was young and stupid then!)

THE UNIVERSE
Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
is an impossible superfluous nonentity!  J.H.  5/8/07

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By Sue, May 17, 2008 at 5:24 am Link to this comment
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Dear Mitochondria:Being skeptical is good and is a sign of normal intellegence. I also am skeptical of many things. I do not trust people easily and am always cautious when making financial, medical, and other daily decisions. Understanding things we cannot “see” can be challenging. It is not always easy. We depend on our environment to reveal things to us continually and directly. However, when it comes to things “not of this world” the rules are a little different. I see God’s presence through the relationship between my conversations (prayer with Him) and how my life continues to unfold. I have been through many trials in my life and have been rescued in many ways through prayer. I have seen miracle healings because of faith - not by some nut ball TV Evangelist trying to make a buck- but in my own family within an ICU Unit. There are days in my life when I doubt which is not a sign that God doesn’t exist but is a sign that I can become overwhelmed. I have spent the last year in severe pain and just went through major surgery Tuesday. Sometimes I ask why? But in my heart a small voice reigns - “not a hair on my head can be touched unless I (God) says so”. Telling a non-believer this opens me up for ridicule and insult. However, I cannot let my pride interfere with the truth of my relationship with Jesus. You have every right to believe what you believe. However, please understand that evil loves to hide within good because it is a perfect cover. A gun is smuggled inside a hollowed out Bible not a book of murder. The terrorists came in on commercial passenger jets not on enemy attack planes on 9-11. Please understand that what you see in the media or hear about within some organizations does not necessarily represent Christianity and Christ. We are taught this within our faith but those on the outside must rely on what they see on TV or read in magazines. And honestly there are some sick puppies out there saying they believe and are contaminating the name itself. If you meet me I am probably similar to you…I love to shop, I love music of all types (except country:)), I love eating out, going to the beach, nature walks, growing flowers and plants, and picnics. However, Jesus goes with me everywhere I go because He lives in my heart. Because He lives there I also love to help people know what He has done for me. I do believe Jesus loves you….in fact maybe that is why I am here recovering stuck in my house - just to have the time to let you know. Blessings to you.

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By Jim H. 5/14 /2008, May 14, 2008 at 8:40 am Link to this comment
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Re: Dave, May 13 at 6:16 pm

Dave says: “—-to see God.”(?)  “I learned—-from a 3 year old—”

I say: So, you admit that your knowledge and intelligence is no better than that of a “3 year old”?
Did the “3 year old” also tell you that “Men walked on the Moon”?
And that he once saw “Santa Claus” and his “Reindeers”?
Do you know what the word GULLIBLE means?
How many “Pigs-in-a-poke” have you bought?

Do you know what the word PROOF means?

What “PROOF” do you now have, and can offer in support of your ‘beliefs’? 
Now, don’t give me that book of make-believe fairytales and pornography, the “Bible”!
That is not proof of anything but a lot of garbage ussed to enslave idiots like you and other naive, and little “3 year olds”!

Come up with ‘REAL SOLID PROOF’! 

And, ‘NO’ television “Pictures” of “The Men on the MOON”, taken in a Nevada desert!

——FOR ALL YOU RELIGIOUS ENSLAVED ROBOTIC IDIOTS!

———“JESUS” AND “GOD” ARE “FAIRYTALE” FARTS!

——————————-THE UNIVERSE
Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
Is a lie and impossible superfluous nonentity!

—————Wake up Dave? You have been dreaming! “3 year olds” know ‘only’ “Fairy Tales”!

“3year olds” do not have enough sense to know “Fact” from “Fiction”!

Have a literate adult explain all this to you?

If you weren’t always ‘that way’, you have now successfully managed to (regress or increase,)  lower or raise your mentality to that of a “3 year old”!——————————-Congratulations!

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By Dave, May 13, 2008 at 7:16 pm Link to this comment
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mitochondria: I have never seen, heard or felt your brain but I do believe you have one.

All one has to do is look around to see God. I was 40 years old when I learned that from a 3 year old child. Amazing!

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By mitochondria, May 12, 2008 at 3:10 pm Link to this comment
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If anyone is imagining it has to be the person who believes in something he/she’s never seen. For me its difficult to reconcile the images with the faculties I’ve been given . My focus is reality based in the here and now not on some golden streets or entering some pearly gates . I refuse to be drawn into such nonsense no matter how cushy it sounds . From the time we are a child we are taught that someone we’ve never seen or heard loves us very much (Jesus loves me tis “I KNOW”) It is drilled into our heads and we must accept this guy to please our parentsIf he doesn’t he no doubt feels his parents will be mad at him and it’s a childs desire to be loved by his parents. It doesn’t sound like free will to me it sounds more like brainwashing . When Muslims act out in such a manner we label them criminal. Have you ever seen the documentary “Jesus Camp” with Haggard and company . Order it from Amazon and watch it . Talk about brainwashing . In summary if anyone is picking on anyone it’s the majority who claim to be Christians , even though I doubt many know the meaning, who gang up on those of us who are skeptical about ghosts , gods , and spirits aplenty

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By Sue, May 12, 2008 at 11:58 am Link to this comment
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To play direction setter here let me respond to the beginning of this article - the drama.

“Before they seize power (What the heck does this mean??? we’re not bossing you around with some plot or plan to rule the world - this is a paranoid statement to the max!”) ..... which is more adequate to the needs of the human mind than reality itself; in which, through sheer imagination, (hilarious - manuscripts into the Word of God, healings, personal relationship with Christ does not equal imagination -but the statement is quite dramatic and eye catching) uprooted masses can feel at home and are spared the never-ending shocks which real life and real experiences deal to human beings and their expectations (we are very familiar with real experiences - we are taken hostage in other countries, suffer trials and tribulations and are asked to shut-up in a freedom to speak country - don’t even go there). (You could take off my head for   proclaiming the truth in some countries) The force possessed by totalitarian propaganda— (this is a description of this article - not the Word of God.) before the movements have the power to drop iron curtains (reflective of more paranoia) to prevent anyone’s disturbing, by the slightest reality, the gruesome quiet of an entirely imaginary world—lies in its ability to shut the masses off from the real world.” (Why do you care so much - protesting others opinions to this point truly reveals doubt of your own beliefs.)

Great job Chris….if you are a local sensationalist reporter on Fox News! Chris do you have a bomb shelter in your backyard to protect you from the boogy man Christians. Are you paranoid of everyone who disagrees with you or is it just us? News flash:
we aren’t scary but your personal destiny is.

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By Sue, May 12, 2008 at 11:22 am Link to this comment
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Dear Myronh:
Let’s talk about this—-My self-worth comes from the fact that I have raised a family of wonderful children (now adults) who are now raising their own families. All our children and grandchildren lead a life filled with love and assistance for their fellow man.
Now I really am I’m glad you are happy with yourself and your accomplishments on this earth to date. It is important to feel productive and meet your objectives. The major problem with this is that when you’re speaking of your view of yourself is this: if you had been born sterile and stupid you would have no worth in your own eyes. You have created your own measurement of worth. It is from the world and is a made up measurement. However, I do believe our difference of opinion may very well lie in the difference of applying the word “worth” to ourselves. I believe that I deserve “hell” and nothing else because I am a sinner. I believe that only the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are worthy indeed. Because I have accepted Jesus God sees me through His son. Everything is good now - spotless. I have wonderful children too, have impacted many people throughout my life, and have recently reached into arenas I never imagined possible. But overall “So What!”. These days we live within are passing and will soon end. People have come and gone and some have made a mark on others and some have not. There is some guy working at the burger drive-through that knows more about life than some professor with a swelled head of ridiculous knowledge made up by other swelled headed professors. What I leave behind is not as important as what I stand for in my eyes. If I was a blind, deaf, uneducated person I would be equal to who I am today….a child of God. Again my worth is from God, through God and about God. God loves me whether I do great things today or whether I am mad at the world and not speaking to a soul. My performance is not the focus but what I focus on is the most important subject. I would not want to make you feel you are “worth” nothing as a human - you are important to God and I’m sure you are loved by family and friends.  However, don’t expect a Christian to rely on a self proclaimed self worth. Why? Again it doesn’t compute—Sorry to repeat myself but I’m speaking the truth.
To make this “I have self worth statement” would also say “hey, it’s all about me..me..me”. You might find some person who just shows up to church to agree with you. But that will be the extent of their walk with God. A true Christian that relies on the Son will deny his life (accomplishments and agenda) and live a life of sacrifice. Regarding suicide….....I truly believe that depression is a condition caused by separation from Christ. This disorder has been removed by many people after accepting Christ never to return to them that state again (and without medication). Amazing things happen when someone realizes that life is not about “them” but about others through Christ. Please understand that when the “world” speaks a true Christian listens then applies God’s word and that is when truth is revealed to that individual by and through the Holy Spirit. We work under a different authority and things appear quite different. We are not disagreeing with you just to disagree but we are disagreeing because it does not line up with our faith and the Holy Spirit that lives within our hearts.

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By Myronh, May 12, 2008 at 5:51 am Link to this comment

Sue,

Your latest Reply contains some very interesting, but also disturbing information. I have often wondered why a young teen-ager would commit suicide or take the life of others. Apparently they have no “self-worth”, as your direct quote indicates “Nothing we can do can make us worthy of anything”. You go on to say “Self worth does not even compute. What would make a man worthy? His money? His status? His appearance? What?”  A statement such as yours is exactly the reason I am an Atheist. My self-worth comes from the fact that I have raised a family of wonderful children (now adults) who are now raising their own families. All our children and grandchildren lead a life filled with love and assistance for their fellow man. I have worked, and continue to work part-time after retirement, in a technically challenging job in which I was able to contribute information and service that has provided value to many people and you certainly might be one of the many that have unknowingly benefited. I contribute what money I can afford to those in need, especially those stricken with cancer or other debilitating diseases. My question to you is: How dare you proclaim I have no worth without Jesus? What about the other four or five billion people in the world that don’t believe in Jesus?

You brag about the good things the church does, and what terrible things the non-believer does. I don’t know any Atheists that rape little altar boys, as has and is being done by Priests who have pledged to become a disciple of Jesus. I don’t know any Atheist who has stood in front of a large church congregation on Sunday and pledged their dedication to Jesus, as have numerous Ministers, and then on Monday cruise the streets looking for a prostitute to fxxk while their wife and children are forced to play the role of the saintly Minister’s family.

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By mitochondria, May 12, 2008 at 4:56 am Link to this comment
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Once again I commend you and your fellows for the work that you do. I to know that being of assistance to those in need can be labor intensive and I’m glad there are people who are willing to help out in times of emergencies . Once more however I’d like to remind you that we’re getting off topic. This forum speaks to the validity of the ID museum and whether or not it’s a hindrance or help to the educational process. Religion deals with the supernatural. Its primary theme stems from an understanding of majik in a mystical sense . God’s , ghosts and personal spirits being the primary source of wisdom and a book that can be seen as controversial at best fill the bill. The first chapter of that book deals with how the earth and man came about and science has cast doubt on that . Proof has been offered that a worldwide flood never occurred for example and since then more than 207 similar stories from as many as 290 religions , many predating Christianity,  have uncovered similar stories of flooding and death on a grand scale . In my eyes foundations are the most crucial element of understanding anything. I have no problem with people wanting to use Christ as a mentor but when it rises to the level of a God and you want to pass it on to my children, I have problems with that. The Christian god , in my opinion , is not the flawless character he’s portrayed as in some of the writings . In fact he’s rather bloodthirsty and , as we are finding now , far from perfect.Uncovering the secrets to all life through DNA/RNA and the Genome processes and how all life is so very much alike have given us new insights into origins and a solid foundation with which to work . We are now very much aware of disease processes and what we need to do to combat them . In addition we are now able to make bladders in the lab for transplant ( 6 so far) . We have created a miniature heart that beats and by 2010 we will be able to create human lungs and hearts . We didn’t need to rely on hocus pocus or mysticism . We simply had to discover things that were once restricted by the church with threats of eternal punishment and cultural mayhem.. We don’t have all of the answers but the scientific process offers a much more logical system of discovery

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By Sue, May 11, 2008 at 5:06 pm Link to this comment
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Thank you for your comments:
I am enjoying sharing thoughts with both of you. But maintaining a healthy respect for others opinions is important to me no matter what the discussion is about. Using facts to share ones views also helps to create a clear and untainted discussion. I work with many true Christians. Not people who use this name to gain from it, but who have a heart to serve a God who loves them.
“True” Christians are not here to come to your house or block your streets etc. We are not here to cause you grief or heartache. We are here at the direction of our God and are chosen by Him alone. Nothing we can do can make us worthy of anything. Self worth does not even compute. What would make a man worthy? His money? His status? His appearance? What? We are seen through His Son’s life through one event. That event is asking Jesus to live in our hearts. This is why we are there when the floods come, to feed others in need, to assist families of divorce, unwed Mother’s that society shuns, etc. We have nothing to gain - we give 10%+ to the ministry of God in whatever way we want and we have a lasting eternal relationship with Christ that is sacred to us. God was asked to remove himself from the public school system decades ago - and He did just that. Once that happened the school system began to go broke in every state, and now no mother will be at peace when her child goes to public school. There are kids killing kids and security within the walls where children were once laughing and sharing their lives in peace. Ironically many schools now depend on Christian churches to rent their facilities on Sunday mornings to make ends meet. In the war on good and evil there is a simple formula. Where there is God there is 100% good. Where God is not there is 100% evil. How strange things are when God is not present. Please be careful what you ask for because it may come true. Less God more strife, more God more life. Peace in the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ - who is coming again!

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By Myronh, May 11, 2008 at 9:11 am Link to this comment

Sue,

I truly feel sorry for you and all others that think and feel the way you do. You should read a very small book titled APH0RISMS, collected from the writings of the two Mayo Brothers, founders of the world famous Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. In all their years they believed in each other, their families, their father that taught them humility and dedication to mankind. You will not find one work about God.

You should also be aware that Atheists are not persecuting any religious people. Atheists only want deists to keep their religious beliefs in their home, their church, temple or synagogue. Keep it out of the public places. I know of no Atheist interfering with any religious activity that is conducted in a designated place of worship. I wish I could say the same for those Deists pounding on my door, blocking my walk down a public street, etc. WAKE-UP SUE AND SMELL THE ROSES OF TRUE BELIEF IN SELF-WORTH, NOT SOME ANCIENT BELIEF.

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By mitochondria, May 11, 2008 at 5:29 am Link to this comment
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Personally , I don’t think you’re giving yourself enough credit but that’s me. This board has a specific topic and that is whether or not there are any truths offered by what some consider a psuedo museum that’s falsifying the efforts of academia. What is presented at the museum are all lies that have been disputed by reputable scientists using reputable methods . You my dear are an enabler . Without considering relevance you insist on defying logic by going off into some fantasyland and skirting the actual topic as though we were attacking Christianity. No one is attacking Christianity per se’ , you can be as Christian as you wanna be and I would be willing to die to protect your rights , what many of us are attacking however are the unsubstantiated attempts at distorting the truth to satisfy your ego’(s) . Science has negated much of the book of Genesis by showing that those events most likely didn’t happen as is claimed . Those are not empty research results they are often challenged scientific methods. Maybe it’s me but it seems that every time Christians or Jewish people are challenged they cry foul . You are attacking us and we are persecuted at every level . All I have to say to that is “oh how powerful the brainwash”>>>

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By Sue, May 11, 2008 at 4:38 am Link to this comment
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Per Andrew’s comment:
Yes, I agree with you Andrew. However Christians are persecuted here in the US just as they are abroad. People can agree to disagree on about anything including if they should marry an individual; but whooo to the man who doesn’t agree with someones belief in TOE. What I see here on the board is this: People judged by age, on their educational level and on their desire to exercise their God given free will. My thoughts are as follows:
(remember this is one persons thoughts so chill out if you don’t believe the same way I do)

Worship: everyone worships something - I could spend 30 minutes with you and tell you exactly what or who you worship (food, money, your job, your degree, your spouse, your kids, your car, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit (all three in one), on an on.

Faith: you have faith is something and practice it every day. It might be the mighty paycheck, TOE, Jesus, or whatever you alone may have conjured up. Again 30 minutes alone with you would reveal what you have faith in.

Destiny: you have one whether or not you ignore that fact or not. I have chose mine and selected to “believe” in Jesus (my choice not yours)it is called “free will”.

Purpose here: everyone wonders what they are doing here whether they admit it or not. There has to be a method to this madness called earth - the world. Again I choose to believe that God has chosen me to do what I do (ministry) and to share the love and assistance to others that Jesus would want me to share.

Now if the discussion board was healthcare, drug abuse or any other subject why would people be less insulting and judgmental????

Again my thoughts are: If someone suspects he is going to hell because he has not accepted the free gift of Christ, it would be an instinct to rebel against the one bearing this news. In order to agree with the Christian one must realize he is a sinner and is not connected with God because of that fact.
Now those are just “my thoughts” combined with some of the knowledge God has given me from the Word.

If you are hungry I will give you food. If you are old I will come and visit you. If you need a friend I will be loyal to you. If you need an ear I will listen to you. Why? Not because of me - because it is not at all about me - it is about Jesus. smile

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By mitochondria, May 11, 2008 at 4:38 am Link to this comment
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First of all if you look at the definition of cult: ” A system of religious worship with references to rites and ceremonies ” and analyze what goes on in Christianity you will find that it most definitely fits and as far as the brainwashing goes it stands to reason , at least in some people’s mind, that the worship of ghosts and spirits takes on a certain amount of fanatical thinking and that amounts to brainwashing in my eyes . Think about it , no one would fall to his knees in the center of New York and say don’t you feel,see my friend there . He is going to save the world from all of its horror. Don’t ya see how great he is and what he can do for us humans ?? No doubt you’d be taken in to be evaluated because they wouldn’t want you to get hit by a car, etc. I don’t go around naming groups of people and offering prejudicial remarks but it’s clear that Christianity has its problems .

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By Jim H., May 10, 2008 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment
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RE: Sue, May 8, 2008 at 3:10 pm

————-SUE, YOU ARE A BEYOND HOPE IMBERCILE!
——————————-ATTENTION ALL!
Sue says: “Jim H. you are using words from a Catholic book of some sort.” (?)(?)
————————OBVIOUSLY SUE CANNOT READ!

——-“Sue” is a lying ‘RELIGIOUS FANATIC NUMB-SKULL!
If this IDIOT could read, she would discover that not only is “AN ENSLAVING FORCE” my personally copyrighted material, but, that it is a “CRITIQUE AND EXPOSE’ OF THE CRIMINAL THIEVING MIND WARPING CHILD MOLESTING PEDOPHILES WHO ‘ARE’ THE————“CATHOLIC CHURCH”!!!!!!!!

This MINDLESS Sue A//Ho, is a perfect example of what happens when someones mind is WARPED by proselytizing indoctrination,and association with those fanatical imberciles who believe “Santa Claus” and the “The Tooth Fairy, are real!  She also no doubt, would donate money to buy “Mickey Mouses” food.
After that inane assertion, from an insane fool it should be obvilus that anything this nit-wit writes, or ‘says’ is tainted by the puke that abides within her skull, instead of brains!
She has the AUDACITY to state that My PERSONALLY COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL “AN INSLAVING FORCE” is “—-words from a Catholic book of some sort”!
————————READ “AN ENSLAVING FORCE” BELOW!  ———————————-V V V

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By Devin_MacGregor, May 10, 2008 at 11:39 am Link to this comment
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Seriously Dave ... what is your point?  Multiple flood stories do not validate Bible God.  It does not validate that the biblical flood story happened.  This seems to be a ploy by many Christians in the last few decades.  That is to keep playing the shell game.  That is to ignore that Bible God is THE story and not just one of them.  The fact that we have different flood stories points to a common theme for all of humanity and a story that may go back far farther than we will ever know.  To all of them the flood was the world but it was actually a region flood and not a world encompassing flood.

The Bible is like a Tom Clancy novel.  If I go on an archeology find I will discover a Baltimore.  I will discover evidence that dirty bombs do exist.  If I look in a phone book I will find a Jack Ryan.  Does this mean that Tom wrote about events that actually happened or that he wrote about an event to convey some form of morality while using something contemporary to make the story more real sounding.

All those factors above are more or less common sense. If I am in a flood then I want to be on a boat.  If I am in a flood then I will eventually find higher ground and to anyone in a non flood situation would look up at the mountains around them and point to them.  People will ask the story teller, hey how did all the animals survive then. The story teller will than have to say well that is simple ... they were all taken on the boat and saved.  Primitive man would not understand the delicate ecosystems that some animals live in could not have been taken from that environment and if so would had died. Primitive man did not know how to explain his world other than through some supernatural means.  It was our fault the crops died.  It was our fault it rained so much that the fields got washed out.  It was our fault that the sun heated up the ground so much water was hard to find etc.  So they made up stories to explain it.  Then the stories became a way to control people.

Archeology is NOT proving a Bible God.  It is not proving any of the stories actually took place or even took place as described.  Finding Babylon does not prove Bible God etc any more than it proves the existence of Babylonian gods etc.

What is intolerance is bearing false witness against all other religions of the world and trying to use them to legitimize a belief in Bible God.  Because no Christian is actually accepting that these other gods do in fact exist but will arrogantly say well they just worship “our” god with another name.

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By Andrew, May 10, 2008 at 11:27 am Link to this comment
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Why is it that anyone who challanges “science” is attacked on this board? The intolerance does not come from christianity, it comes from ignorant people such as yourselves who arent willing to listen to both sides of the story. Many people disagree with you and you still make the claims into “fact”. Many people on this board have called christianity a cult and claimed that it tries to brainwash children and weakminded people, yet you are the ones saying that anyone who doesnt believe what you believe is “idiots”.

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By Dave, May 9, 2008 at 8:09 pm Link to this comment
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Scientists and scholars have learned a great deal about the history of the early times of which the Bible speaks. This method of study, now known as archaeology, is quite useful.

In giving thought to this branch of study. I consider it as the echo of God’s voice. If men will not praise God as they ought, then even the stones will cry out in praise. When people, through pride and ignorance, fail to give God’s Word the honor that it should have, then God Himself will defend His Word by showing us the evidence that the Bible is true.

The stones of the earth will collaborate the truth of the Bible. In speaking originally, God is to be believed; but if in man’s rebellion he will not hear, then the echo of what has already taken place will doubly convict him. But the fact remains that if sinful man is not willing to hear God’s voice he is not likely to appreciate the validity of the echo.

This Website could keep you busy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_archaeology

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By Dave, May 9, 2008 at 7:48 pm Link to this comment
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Flood stories have been discovered among nearly all nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on all the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270.

Although these traditions have been modified through the ages and some have taken on fantastic elements, most of them have certain basic elements in common.

1. 88% of them single out a favoured individual or family.

2. 70% point to survival due to a boat.

3. 66% see the Flood coming as a result of human wickedness.

4. 67% speak of animals saved along with human beings.

5. 57 % record that the survivors end up on a mountain.

6. 66% indicate that the hero receives warning of the coming catastrophe.

The assertion that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in vindicating the Bible. Moreover, they are filled with fanciful and pagan elements, evidently the result of transmission for extended periods of time in a pagan society. A third factor is that the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.

Most important of all the flood stories is the Babylonian account. Interest in it rises because it comes from the same Semitic context and the same geographical area as the Genesis narrative and because it is similar to the Genesis account in so many ways.

The Babylonian flood story was part of the library of King Ashurbanipal of Assyria (668 - 627 B.C.) found during the British excavations at Nineveh in 1853 and 1873. The story was the eleventh tablet of a twelve-tablet piece entitled the Gilgamesh Epic, an account of Gilgamesh’s search for immortality. Gilgamesh (king of Uruk, biblical Erech) interviewed Utnapishtim, the “Babylonian Noah,” and learned from him the story of the flood and his securing of immortality.

Subsequently an early Akkadian story of the flood, written in Mesopotamia about 1600 B.C. and known as the Atra-hasis Epic, and a Sumerian version of the Babylonian flood story (dating circa 1700 B.C.) have come to light. The story in all these texts is similar and the flood hero is known variously as Ziusudra in Sumeria and Atra-hasis or Utnapishtim in Akkadian.

Amazing work of Archaeologists!

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By Jim H. May 9, 2008, May 9, 2008 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: Sue, May 8, 2008 at 3:10 pm

————-SUE, YOU ARE A BEYOND HOPE IMBERCILE!
——————————-ATTENTION ALL!
Sue says: “Jim H. you are using words from a Catholic book of some sort.” (?)(?)
————————OBVIOUSLY SUE CANNOT READ!

——-“Sue” is a lying ‘RELIGIOUS FANATIC NUMB-SKULL!
If this IDIOT could read, she would discover that not only is “AN ENSLAVING FORCE” my personally copyrighted material, but, that it is a “CRITIQUE AND EXPOSE’ OF THE CRIMINAL THIEVING MIND WARPING CHILD MOLESTING PEDOPHILES WHO ‘ARE’ THE————“CATHOLIC CHURCH”!!!!!!!!

This MINDLESS Sue A//Ho, is a perfect example of what happens when someones mind is WARPED by proselytizing indoctrination,and association with those fanatical imberciles who believe “Santa Claus” and the “The Tooth Fairy, are real!  She also no doubt, would donate money to buy “Mickey Mouses” food.
After that inane assertion, from an insane fool it should be obvilus that anything this nit-wit writes, or ‘says’ is tainted by the puke that abides within her skull, instead of brains!
She has the AUDACITY to state that My PERSONALLY COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL “AN INSLAVING FORCE” is “—-words from a Catholic book of some sort”!
————————READ “AN ENSLAVING FORCE” below V !

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By JIM H., May 9, 2008 at 7:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

—————————THE UNIVERSE
Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God” is an impossible superfluous nonentity!  J.H.  5/8/07

————-AN ENSLAVING FORCE   J.H.  2/8/08
Few people realize the extent of the reach, influence and overwhelming power of religion! Nor do many people have any idea as to the enormity of the Vatican’s financial resources!  Very likely, the Vatican is the wealthiest entity by a factor of 100 that the world has ever seen.  And its tax-free status, weekly and “willed” donations of millions, when added to income from all its many worldwide investments, positions those who control that fabulous bottomless pool of wealth as the world’s most influential lobbyist or purchaser! This may be one of the reasons the Pledge of Allegiance was plagiarized and altered from “one nation indivisible” to the bigoted “one nation (divided) under God.” And why 100 senators disgraced our country and themselves by reciting the religious pledge on the steps of the senate and before television beamed to the entire world! The time has come to discredit the outrageous assertions by the Ponzi-racketeering charlatans who promote the plague-like mind destroying disease religion that survives by warping the minds of innocent children and fools, robbing them of their candy and toy money, and enslaving them to a life as shills who help perpetuate the criminal religion schemes. “Secular humanists,” “non-believers” and other sane and rational people know that no proof survives the fairytales of a magician named Jesus or his magic miracles, nor is there any proof whatsoever that there is or ever was a supreme creator God! Yet this and other lies are used to perpetuate their rotten scheme religion. People who live in the “real” world refuse to accept silly lies, fairy tales and farce as fact, whether it be about “Santa Claus” “The Tooth Fairy,” “Donald Duck,” a “Jesus” or a “Creator God.” Nor should they be lumped with or considered analogous with a gang of thieving, lying, mind-warping pedophiles who use a how-to manual of pornography, pillorying, stoning to death and other forms of outright bigotry, for their weekly stimulus to more proselytizing. The senators who said that fallacious rendition of our once great Pledge of Allegiance shall be remembered as the promoters of a criminal enterprise and the abettors or cohorts of a bunch of thieving slavers who invade every phase of society with their lying assertions that “our country was founded as a Christian nation.
Their plagiarism of our once great Pledge of Allegiance, their repeated attempts to force their “Godism” on all schoolchildren, and their ever increasing use of all forms of media and gimmicks to mesmerize, indoctrinate and bludgeon American people with their outrageous, endless efforts to dominate us all with a “Theocratic” form of government renders them heinous felonious criminals!
And the likes of George W. Bush and his ilk, including Ilinois Governor Rod Blagojevich by giving millions of dollars to faith-based groups, are bidding them “Godspeed” with our hard earned tax money!
——————-THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground. Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end.
Religion’s pollution is no solution for Darwin’s Evolution. Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence. The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!  J.H.  8/29/06

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By Jim H. May 9, 2008, May 9, 2008 at 9:31 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE: Sue, May 8, 2008 at 3:10 pm

————-SUE, YOU ARE A BEYOND HOPE IMBERCILE!
——————————-ATTENTION ALL!
Sue says: “Jim H. you are using words from a Catholic book of some sort.” (?)(?) 
————————OBVIOUSLY SUE CANNOT READ!
 
——-“Sue” is a lying ‘RELIGIOUS FANATIC NUMB-SKULL!
If this IDIOT could read, she would discover that not only is “AN ENSLAVING FORCE” my personally copyrighted material, but, that it is a “CRITIQUE AND EXPOSE’ OF THE CRIMINAL THIEVING MIND WARPING CHILD MOLESTING PEDOPHILES WHO ‘ARE’ THE————“CATHOLIC CHURCH”!!!!!!!!

This MINDLESS Sue A//Ho, is a perfect example of what happens when someones mind is WARPED by proselytizing indoctrination,and association with those fanatical imberciles who believe “Santa Claus”  and the “The Tooth Fairy, are real!  She also no doubt, would donate money to buy “Mickey Mouses” food.
After that inane assertion, from an insane fool it should be obvilus that anything this nit-wit writes, or ‘says’ is tainted by the puke that abides within her skull, instead of brains!
She has the AUDACITY to state that My PERSONALLY COPYRIGHTED MATERIAL “AN INSLAVING FORCE” is “—-words from a Catholic book of some sort”!
————————READ “AN ENSLAVINNG FORCE”  BELOW!

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By mitochondria, May 9, 2008 at 6:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well I guess I eat crow but it does sound like you’re very young nonetheless , Perhaps it involves your educational maturity. I find your work very commendable because I know it must be difficult at times . I have friends who strive to make the world a better place in much the same way, but without the religious hodgepodge . I think we’re straying from the main theme however so I’ll try to readjust . I have a problem with worshiping ghosts and interpretations of the same . For eons people have taken orders from imaginary gods and all that results are wars challenging the validity of one god versus another . To me that’s all nonsense and goes beyond reasonable , rational thought . The study of molecular biology and the Theory of Evolution have lifted me above that level of reasoning and given me what I consider to be a believable premise with which to work. Your understanding of “scientific” theory may a bit off. The Theory of Evolution as all other theory in science will forever be theory no matter how long they exist. The ToE has many profound answers that have contributed to the advances in all of the sciences . It is a great foundation that has already helped us find cures and treatments for diseases that once baffled us . Looking far beyond 6,000 years of development and considering it to be millions has given us insight and hope . The bible on the other hand has been a hindrance . It placed restrictions on us and now we are actually proving that events in the bible never occurred . Take the Noah’s Ark event for instance . Archaeologists have concluded that there has never been a worldwide flood and especially not 10,000 years ago . Most of Genesis has been negated . So much for foundations hey, so in conclusion we need to ask ourselves if that is the case what about the credibility of the rest of the bible . Again, what you do is certainly commendable but attaching ghosts and spirits to it is merely what you do ,but that doesn’t make it true.

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By Sue, May 8, 2008 at 4:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Greetings to both of you:
Thank you Mitochondria for the compliment that I sound young. My life was renewed several years ago and I began a fresh walk with Christ. I am 51 years old and assist 10 of thousands of missionaries in the ministry I am working in. We are in bringing the “truth” not theory to the hearts of the hurting, sick, and lost people throughout the world. God has blessed us in many ways and has blessed our missions with thousands upon thousands of miracles you will never see on the evening news (you see this world has a hard time believing you know). Jim H. you are using words from a Catholic book of some sort. I am not of this religion and don’t plan on ever being connected with this practice/false teaching. Pure and simple I am a follower of Christ - Jesus Freak or whatever you might think to call me that may explain whom I walk with. The Word of God pulled me to Christ then the work began. I risk who I am every day to follow him. I live by this Word and plan on sharing love with others so that they may understand they are not alone in this world - but loved by the Son of God. It sounds like you think Jesus was a liar - that is okay because you know no more and have not been called to him at this time. However, if you died tonight where will you be and do you have peace about that. God is not a theory. An Indian standing on a mountain by himself hundreds of years ago can figure this out alone. It is in us to know truth. However, man is unreliable, tends to lie, and is totally selfish. These are traits that occur from sin. God is none of these which makes Him the perfect source of truth. God is holy and therefore cannot lie. Studying things that the world has conjured up is a waste of time in a life that is full and surrounded by a mission. Contentment only comes when you know who you are and why you are assigned to a specific mission in this life. I have my mission - I love Jesus - I hope one day you have the same peace.

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By Jim H., May 5, 2008 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

———————————————AN ENSLAVING FORCE  
Few people realize the extent of the reach, influence and overwhelming power of religion! Nor do many people have any idea as to the enormity of the Vatican’s financial resources!  Very likely, the Vatican is the wealthiest entity by a factor of 100 that the world has ever seen.  And its tax-free status, weekly and “willed” donations of millions, when added to income from all its many worldwide investments, positions those who control that fabulous bottomless pool of wealth as the world’s most influential lobbyist or purchaser! This may be one of the reasons the Pledge of Allegiance was plagiarized and altered from “one nation indivisible” to the bigoted “one nation (divided) under God.” And why 100 senators disgraced our country and themselves by reciting the religious pledge on the steps of the senate and before television beamed to the entire world! The time has come to discredit the outrageous assertions by the Ponzi-racketeering charlatans who promote the plague-like mind destroying disease religion that survives by warping the minds of innocent children and fools, robbing them of their candy and toy money, and enslaving them to a life as shills who help perpetuate the criminal religion schemes. “Secular humanists,” “non-believers” and other sane and rational people know that no proof survives the fairytales of a magician named Jesus or his magic miracles, nor is there any proof whatsoever that there is or ever was a supreme creator God! Yet this and other lies are used to perpetuate their rotten scheme religion. People who live in the “real” world refuse to accept silly lies, fairy tales and farce as fact, whether it be about “Santa Claus” “The Tooth Fairy,” “Donald Duck,” a “Jesus” or a “Creator God.” Nor should they be lumped with or considered analogous with a gang of thieving, lying, mind-warping pedophiles who use a how-to manual of pornography, pillorying, stoning to death and other forms of outright bigotry, for their weekly stimulus to more proselytizing. The senators who said that fallacious rendition of our once great Pledge of Allegiance shall be remembered as the promoters of a criminal enterprise and the abettors or cohorts of a bunch of thieving slavers who invade every phase of society with their lying assertions that “our country was founded as a Christian nation.
Their plagiarism of our once great Pledge of Allegiance, their repeated attempts to force their “Godism” on all schoolchildren, and their ever increasing use of all forms of media and gimmicks to mesmerize, indoctrinate and bludgeon American people with their outrageous, endless efforts to dominate us all with a “Theocratic” form of government renders them heinous felonious criminals!
And the likes of George W. Bush and his ilk, by giving millions of dollars to faith-based groups, is bidding them “Godspeed!”

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By mitochondria, May 5, 2008 at 7:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

First of all we DO know how apes came about but this is not the forum to teach , however I think you should undertake a study of your own. You will be enlightened I assure you. I have never questioned whether or not Christ roamed the earth for 33 years . That is not a concern of mine . I am concerned with what was taught though , for instance , he being the son of god and all of the miracles . He and the apostles were preaching to desperate people and tricking them would have been incredibly easy.There primary need was food and shelter. Very few were educated . Christ on the other hand was very intelligent , he and many of the characters in the bible were with the Essenes for some time studying middle eastern religion (Hindu,etc .) and much of the teaching of Christ bears a striking resemblance to the teaching of Hinduism . The bible is hear say and if you feel a need to believe every word then there would be no use trying to persuade you of anything but I will say that you need to study biology in its current form so that you can master the theory of evolution . Then if you still want to challenge you won’t reflect the same ignorance and embarrass yourself . I realize many young Christian people aren’t allowed to study evolution but you need to ask yourself why and embark on a 6 month study of your own . Start with Darwin’s writings and work forward to modern day biology and the study of molecules of the cell. If by then you still have doubts you will have at least given yourself a firm background from which to argue your points . You seem intelligent but you sound young . I think you need to give every credible subject the benefit of the doubt until you understand ideas that are opposing to you.

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By Sue, May 4, 2008 at 10:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I believe… because I have been chosen to… by His revealing of truth through the Word (taken from the manuscripts and within them is evidence that demands a verdict).. and from the personal healing I have experienced in my life since I was 9 (now 51).Many miracles, many stories, much total peace! No fear of man, death or financial ruin. Enjoying the full life and friends who can testify to similar happenings. Knowledge does not come from man…....man is ignorant and has a pea sized mentality - our God teaches us that any knowledge we receive most certainly comes from Him alone. As I watch the world fret over the price of gas, the housing market, the war Iraq and famine throughout the world, it makes me smile because I know that “not a hair on my head can be touched unless God says so”. Peace through Christ. Simple gift from God - the owner of knowledge itself.

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By mitochondria, May 4, 2008 at 8:12 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

occasionally when I address a person as young as you on this board I need to be careful not to offend . Obviously , you are very intelligent, but you need to continue to study so that you can begin to understand the topics we are discussing . Nothing in the subject matter of evolution suggests we come from a monkey .(you need to read about the subject and tell your folks you are trying to understand ) That is a religionists description that was designed to get followers of Christ to steer clear of the true understanding for it may undermine your belief in a ghost who may or may not have claimed he was the son of a ghost who called himself god . Scientists are pretty much in agreement that the events in the Genesis chapter most likely never occurred and that it’s allegorical. Even the pope agrees with that assessment . If that is the case then all that is written in the bible is merely hear say (my opinion)and credibility has certainly been lost in the interim . Believers need to study the Theory of Evolution themselves . If you read about the topic and sincerely make an effort to understand it should take you about a year @ 1to2 hours a day. I have read the bible and quite frankly I don’t agree with much of it . There are some nice little fictional stories there but not much else

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By cann4ing, May 4, 2008 at 7:24 am Link to this comment

Belief does not equate to knowledge.  The mere fact that you chose to “believe” that there is a God or that the man Jesus was God (as opposed to a first century Ghandi) cannot be equated to scientific evidence that there is (a) a God or (b) that Jesus was either the son of that God or God Himself.

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By Dave, May 4, 2008 at 7:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

mitochondria. microevolution YES. macroevolution or “supraspecific evolution” NO.

Jim H. What did the ape evolve from and where is your physical evidence. Where is the physical evidence of any of it.

Frank. OK no mention of God by scientist but I have heard and seen in writing the use of designer, if you have not heard or seen this I would have to question how much you read, They just can not bring themselves to use his real name.

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By Sue, May 4, 2008 at 5:06 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The question isn’t if Jesus was here - even the false teachings of Mormons - Jehovah Witnesses - Muslims know of His existence, it’s been here for over 2000 years. That is not the question at all - the question is who do you believe Jesus is? A liar? An insane man? Or the Son of God (who He said He is)? I believe He is God and will return as He said He would. Just like you believe you came from a monkey? By the way, in your belief - who made the monkey? I would like to know because of the grand designer details in his eyes, nose, lungs, teeth, and every other part of his being ;how they all work together to form such an animal. Also why is 13% of the human population RH Negative (monkeys have the RH factor)? Please understand that renewing cells and aging bodies are a sign of life and creation to a believer - the thought that we came from an accident is foolishness to us. So “Who do you think Jesus is”? You really must decide. Using words like fairytale reflects your lack of overall knowledge of evidence available. I suggest you do more research and then respond back to me with your thoughts about Jesus instead of denying His existence. Even evolution scientists are laughing at your crazy statements.

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By Jim H. 4/26/2008, April 26, 2008 at 2:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Sue, April 25

Sue: Wise up!
There NEVER, NEVER, NEVER WAS ANYONE “JESUS”! OR “GOD’!
They are FAIRYTALE CHARACTERS used to screw-up the minds, and bodies of innocent children and naive fools LIKE YOU so the charlatans, who pretend they are “Agents of God” can steal money from you, and convert you into a slaving shill, and cohort proselytiser, to entice more of your kind of imberciles into their web of ever broadening ‘Ponzi-like’ criminal scheme!

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By JIM H. 4/26/2008, April 26, 2008 at 1:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: andrew, April 19

This poor specimen of living creatures has the audacity to presume, and assert ‘pedantically’, comprehension of things far beyond his juvenile mentality!  ROTE teaching has not afforded him, nor, has his ‘keepers’ added to the mesmerizing indoctrination he has been succored upon, any means by which he could possibly discern fact from fiction, or fiction from truth!
First, idiot, everything known to man, and every sound or utterance used to convey anything at all, has derived from LIVING beings, not FAIRYTALE CHARACTERS.  The words we use are conglomerations of sounds that have evolved over time and have been accepted as meaning certain things. 
Anything not PROVABLE FACT, IS EITHER A FAIRYTALE, OR A LIE!
Unproven conjectures, such as those proffered by LYING CON MEN, or CHARLATAN “RELIGIOUS” THIEVES, are absurd, audacious devices used to entrap innocent children, and naive simpletons LIKE YOU into a life of slavery as a shill, and a proselytizing cohort, in their efforts to control, and dominate the entire World with a Theocratic form of Government.  And, you, with your asinine assertions are an example of the disastrous results!
Although books may contain information relating to knowledge, the knowledge contained therein does not ‘derive’ from a book!    Books are means of conveying information.  But, the information in a book is not necessarily FACT!
Some idiots LIKE YOU, base their whole outlook, and ‘way of life’ on some things contained in a book that has no relation to reality or fact, and merely amounts to conjecture or, are actually FAIRYTALES.
You are a disgraceful example of what happens to those who suffer ‘mind-warping’ when too young to fight it, or at a later age when the sponge-like filling of the head is still too soft to have matured!

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By mitochondria, April 26, 2008 at 6:38 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

God and Christ are images you’ve conjured in your mind and you hope above all else that your particular imagination supercedes all that others believe in today. Supernaturalism is a belief in ghosts and spirits that always reward us “tomorrow” if we endure the hardships of today. It is a soothing invisible ointment that we apply to keep us safe in an unstable world, but it’s all make believe . If it works for you though and it gives you comfort then perhaps you should continue to believe but realistically it’s just very impractical,good luck to you

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By mitochondria, April 26, 2008 at 6:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

You need to adopt a better understanding of just what evolution means . Evolution was “not” invented . Evolution has always been!!! Your body is in the process of evolution right this very minute . Cells are dying and cells are being born not to mention the cells that are in the middle of the lives . You have a very cynical view of evolution and you need to read to understand it better . Then if you want to debate at least you will understand the basics .Don’t let your belief get in the way of truth

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By Sue, April 25, 2008 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

All of mans opinions are nothing but that…..hot air and noise. Truth is about deep understanding all the way to the soul of oneself. It is not about what someone told you but what God has told you. A relationship with Christ is not a religion. It is a relationship with God Himself. Unless you have walked with Jesus (God who came here as man) and submitted your life to Him you have know idea of who He is. Civilizations can be blessed by God and they can be cursed by God. But the man who fears the Lord is always safe. Peace to all of you and may you learn of the love of Christ before the destruction of this world. It is sooner than you think.

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By andrew, April 19, 2008 at 2:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have to start by saying that I am very shocked by the comments in this “column”. Chris, you are doing exactly what you say that this “cult” is supposedly doing. That is, being intolerant. I hardly think that a religion that is thousands of years old is a “movement”. If you remember correctly, evolution was only invented in the 1700’s. Christianity does drive its followers to explore all answeres and to question and validate what the Bible says. You are a hypocryt and a liar sir. Just because you believe in evolution, doesnt mean that everyone who doesnt is stupid.

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By Jim H., March 17, 2008 at 7:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

———-AN ENSLAVING FORCE (FOR IMBERCILES)
Few people realize the extent of the reach, influence and overwhelming power of religion. Nor do many people have any idea as to the enormity of the Vatican’s financial resources!  Very likely, the Vatican is the wealthiest entity by a factor of 100 that the world has ever seen. And its tax-free status, weekly and “willed” donations of millions, when added to income from all its many secretive worldwide investments, positions those who control that fabulous bottomless pool of wealth as the world’s most influential lobbyist or purchaser! This may be one of the reasons the Pledge of Allegiance was plagiarized and altered from “one nation indivisible” to the bigoted “one nation (divided) under God.” And why 100 senators disgraced our country and themselves by reciting the religious pledge on the steps of the senate and before television beamed to the entire world! The time has come to discredit the outrageous assertions by the Ponzi-racketeering charlatans who promote the plague-like disease religion that survives by warping the minds of innocent children and fools, robbing them of their candy and toy money, and enslaving them to a life as shills who help perpetuate the criminal religion schemes. “Secular humanists,” “non-believers” and other sane and rational people know that no proof survives the fairytales of a magician named Jesus or his magic miracles, nor is there any proof whatsoever that there is or ever was a supreme creator God. Yet this and other lies are used to perpetuate their rotten scheme religion. People who live in the “real” world refuse to accept silly lies, fairy tales and farce as fact, whether it be about “Santa Claus” “The Tooth Fairy,” “Donald Duck,” a “Jesus” or a “Creator God.” Nor should they be lumped with or considered analogous with a gang of thieving, lying, mind-warping pedophiles who use a how-to manual of pornography, pillorying, stoning to death and other forms of outright bigotry for their weekly stimulus to more proselytizing. The senators who said that fallacious rendition of our once great Pledge of Allegiance shall be remembered as the promoters of a criminal enterprise and the abettors or cohorts of a bunch of thieving slavers who invade every phase of society with their lying assertions that “our country was founded as a Christian nation.  With their plagiarism of our once great Pledge of Allegiance, their repeated attempts to force their “Godism” on all schoolchildren and their ever increasing use of all forms of media and gimmicks to mesmerize, indoctrinate and bludgeon the American people with their outrageous, endless efforts to dominate us all with a theocratic form of government renders them criminals!
And the likes of George W. Bush and his ilk, by giving millions of dollars to faith-based groups, is bidding them “Godspeed!”  Jim H.

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By frank, March 17, 2008 at 6:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

One of the toughest things for me to wrap my mind around is what the fanatical fundies envision from a stowaway god. They babble on about a god that “exists” without an ounce of proof only in there sometimes boisterous expressions .One thing to remember is that all cults, and there are no exceptions, wrap you in an umbrella that forbids you from seeking verification outside of the scope of worship you aspire too. That is why it’s so difficult to realize you are captivated by that entity . The god that you “imagine” is genuine( to you) and you are convinced that he’s real because he helped you get out of that ditch on thanksgiving day 1999 after you offered a prayer as a last resort . You stroked his ego and he stroked yours . Sort of like a give and take situation that allows you to justify what you believe in one neat little package of ” I told ya so” wisdom passed down perpetually by grandma and gr.grandma etc. Well anyway you get the picture .  Real science cares less about the concept of god . No scientist that I know has ever ever mentioned a god in the course of his/her work. It is the fundies that feel threatened because of what science has disovered in the past 50 or so years . In the past religion had control . They were able to burn people at the stake when they dodged doctrine but today they are not permitted to behave that way in civilized society. Let’s hope it stays that way and religion remains religion and science , science..

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By Austin, March 16, 2008 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Wow… all I really have to say is WOW… Those are some pretty bold statements… Some pretty bold statements… All I have to say is that I am praying for you and i am shocked by these accusations you are making, and might I add you have no support to these claims. THERE IS A GOD!!! and HE still loves you.

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By Austin, March 16, 2008 at 9:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hi, it is probbablly strange that i am commenting on this because you left this comment over a year ago… well anyways to answer your question: It is clearly stated throughout the Bible and in the book of Genesis how God intended for us to be. I says That we were supposed to live perfect like him and have a perfect and pure loving relationship with him. We actually were created to be with him in the Garden Of Eden and were supposed to live with Him forever. But God gave us a choice. He gave us the decision of whether or not to love him. Because forcing someone to love you is not true love. True love only comes through the choice of loving. Anyways back on the topic of giving us a choice: He gave us a choice whether or not to love him by place the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the Garden. He said not to Eat from this tree and that was his one law. But unfortunately Satan tempted us to eat the fruit. So we did and we were cast out of the gardedn of Eden. We were cast out because of ONE sin, the eating of a piece of fruit. ANd it says in Romans that through one mans sin came death. And it also mentions in the Bible several times that we are in a Post-Fallen world and because of sin we become less and les perfect and through our choices have been made this way. But I want to finish this message with a promise that God made to us. He said after Adam sinned that He would fix it. He would fix the broken relationship so we could be made perfect again and live with HIm forever in heaven. So he sent his only Son, Jesus Christ, down. Jesus lived a perfect life and He died on the Cross. And when he died on the cross, He died for ever sin that has been committed or will be. He died thinking personally of both your sins and of My sins. God sent all his wrath down at that momment and Jesus interceded and took the punishment for OUR mistakes so that we can be covered by the blood of Jesus and be made perfect again so that we can be with Him forever. And he says that all you have to do is accept it and you will be saved. I am sorry i made this so long but a long story short, God created us perfect, we sinned and messed it up and now we are in a post Fall and imperfect world, BUT GOD has fixed it so that when we die we can be with him forever. Thank you , Austin

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By Jim H., September 8, 2007 at 4:57 am Link to this comment
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____________________ATTENTION

———————-Mass/energy never disappear
—————————-Ever were ever here!
—-With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God”
————is an impossible superfluous nonentity!
———————————-J.H. 5/8/07

—————————-THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
———Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground
———Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end
———Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence
———The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind!
—————————————8/29/06

————http://anoraclesworld.blogspot.com/

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By Mark Van Horn, September 3, 2007 at 9:31 pm Link to this comment
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Creationism, Intelligent Creationsim, Evolution, no matter how things got to be here the way they are now, that is the way God whatever our personal concepts of God might be.  If that is the way it is can we not say that is the way God meant it to be?

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By Ignorance Isn't Bliss, June 7, 2007 at 12:50 pm Link to this comment
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Reading over the comments, I find it interesting to see conservatives equating intelligence with arrogance. Where will we end up as a culture if we continue this trend of besmirching those who are well-spoken and well-educated simply because they are well-spoken and well-educated? The world is becoming increasingly more complex, and I know that I, for one, would like to see our leaders and commentators showing more intelligence and understanding, not less.

Of course, as the article points out, ignorance is the goal of the religious right. Evidence of their success can be found throughout this thread. How many posts on this thread make the claim that evolution is not fact, but theory and therefore has no real standing? Many on this thread also claim that it requires “faith” to “believe” in evolution. This shows both ignorance of how scienctific theories are formed, and ignorance of how the scientific community governs itself.

Theories are not “guesses”, they are frameworks for facts. These frameworks allow scientist to say “If A is true, then B should happen.” If B doesn’t happen, then the theory is changed or, if the evidence is strong enough against the theory, the theory is falsified (and thus is no longer taken seriously). So far, the facts continue to support the theory of evolution, facts that span many disciplines of science from geology to cell and molecular biology. Concepts have been adjusted as new facts come in, but nothing has been discovered to overturn the original premise. On the contrary, volumes of data have been discovered to support it.

So to say that believing in evolution takes faith is the equivolent of saying that believing in gravity takes faith (gravitational theory). Or atoms and molecules (atomic theory). Or magnets (electromagnetic theory).

I challenge those who believe that evolution is just a pet theory of godless scientist devised to shield them from having to admit there is a god to actually study evolution - not what creation scientists say about evolution - but evolution itself. If it’s really so flimsy, you shouldn’t have any problems at all. Of course, it might require you to become well-educated so that you can understand it, and that, my friend, could very well lead to arrogance.

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By one in California, June 1, 2007 at 8:40 am Link to this comment
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HAHAHAHAHA. I have to give credit where it is due. Chris has overcome the triteness test. None of what you said was trite. it was “original” gobbledygook!
There are so many intellectual Word circles I had to reread it to figure out where he stood on the issue. You have to be real smart(arrogant) to confuse your readers.
oh, he’s against it. hmm.
Funny how intolerant those are who accuse others of intolerance.
Oh yeah, we are real worried about the “dangers” of those who disagree on how stuff got started.
OOOO boogyman.
Sorry Chris, you blew it and only showed us unfounded fear of the “bad guys” the Christians.
I am so worried about the local Methodists, perverting my kids to doing bad things like not lying, and like cutting my head off for disagreement.
oh wait, that is the other guys isn’t it.

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By Anyart, May 29, 2007 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment
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I have two sons, 11 and 13.  They have a lot of fundie acquintances and are often slagged for believing in evlolution.  I think my advice to them is probably applicable to many of you out there:  Don’t worry about the fundie kids.  In 10 or 15 years, you will be on your way to being a doctor, scientist, lawyer or other professional career that entails critical thinking.  The fundie kids will either be washing your cars and mowing your lawn, or 5 years or more behind you as they will have to learn real science.  They certainly won’t be in cometition for the same jobs.

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By my left foot, May 27, 2007 at 3:23 am Link to this comment
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Evangelical leaders with little or no scientific background are encouraging the young people in there charge to question the validity of darwinian theory simply by offering uneducated opinions about theory and its purpose . First of all let me say this : Yes evolution “is” theory and so is the theory of relativity. Just ask the people of Nagasaki. “All” scientific thought will forever be theory. The reasoning being that if someone else can show “experimentally ” that the current thinking about an entity is “wrong ” then we have accomplished what “science ” has attempted to attain and that is the open endedness of inquiry that forever allows us to learn . As scientists we are attempting to understand our natural surroundings . To date evolution has been heralded as one of the best available theory’s . It is the very foundation for all of the biological sciences and certainly provides a foundation for many more natural sciences At this juncture nothing comes close to providing the base that evolutionary theory does . It’s led us to genetics which in turn has given us a look at dna which is the very foundation or the building blocks of life . It has given us a peek at the entire genome system that has already yeilded results scientifically and given us tools for further discovery . You need only to study biology and molecular biology to understand the processes of life and the complexity that surrounds us and everyday we are learning more and more and the basis for all of this rests with the “Theory of Evolution ” Evidence keeps piling up in all of the sciences in support of evolution . Join us as we search for answers. Study science and search for the answers . Inspire and be inspired .

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By creations, May 26, 2007 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment
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You say, “Its goal is the destruction of the core values of the open society—the ability to think for oneself, to draw independent conclusions, to express dissent when judgment and common sense tell you something is wrong, to be self-critical, to challenge authority, to advocate for change and to accept that there are other views, different ways of being, that are morally and socially acceptable.” Yet you accuse them of doing exactly what you are accusing them of destroying. Science has never proved evolution to be fact. Why is it wrong to question it? Is freedom of speech only for the non-religious? Your faith is in the lie you call evolution. How truthfull is teaching a theory as fact to millions on children for decades?

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By Devin MacGregor, May 23, 2007 at 2:40 am Link to this comment
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Webster: ... A legitimate journalist would do research and discover that truth is the absolute foundation of the Christian faith. ...

Devin:  No Webster if you actually read your bible you would know that FAITH is the foundation of your religion. Truth is in the pudding.  You have faith that you have Truth.  And each christian sect has just a tad different Truth than the other but they all rest on FAITH as their bedrock. 

Webster: ... any “pseudo-science” is involved, just the assumption that anyone questioning scientific orthodoxy (as Copernicus & Galileo once did) must be an enemy.  ...

Devin: Psst, Webster those two you mentioned especially the latter questioned established CHURCH science.  That would be the same people as those “creation scientists” of today.  Apparently your counter-arguments are weakened by anyone who actually knows what and who those two men argued about and against.

Webster: Surely his most absurd and self-defeating claim ...

Devin:  LOL, you are joking right?  How many religions do we have in the world today?  Each professing the order of things etc.

He is talking of scientific method, logic, etc as a universal standard as opposed to hmmm I do not know why this is so it must be supernatural. Then jump to your own conclusion that it was Bigfoot that created the world or Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, etc. Again in christianity alone how many read those scriptures differently according to their own interpretations and then claim their interpretations are the correct ones and divinely inspired?

Webster: ... First of all, does he not know that universities first grew out of church schools?  Is he really ignorant of the fact that science, as a discipline, arose only in Christian-influence Western Europe, where inquisitive minds believed in a “God of order”, who would create a world of order, who commanded people made “in His image” (hence, also of orderly mind) to have dominion (not ownership or tyranny) over that world, hence requiring them to do their best to understand it?  Is he not aware that Galileo, Kepler, Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton were all creationists, (Newton (at least) very explicitly a young-earth proponent)?

Devin:  It is obvious that you do not know that schools existed before christianity.  So did science, medicine, govt, law, engineering, etc. When christianity took over the governoring of Rome it was decreed that no more learning was necessary.  God is all that one needed.  The masses enlarge were no longer taught. Scrolls were burned.  Libraries burned to the ground. We called these the Dark Ages.  It it were not for some Irish monks and largely muslims outside of christian controlled territory we would have lost much more but it was with the advent of the crusades that brought back to backward Europe this knowledge that was suppressed.  This sparked the rennaissance.

And gee what else could those men actually be other than christian?  To be anything else then meant you were killed.

Webster: In short, ...

Devin:  No Webster it is you that charged back with those truckloads of manure.  What, can’t find the nearest federal building?

When you speak of contradictions in the future it is best that you look at your own contradictions in creation, adam/eve, flood, etc.  All bound with contradictions.

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By James M, May 22, 2007 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment
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Thanks for this expose on the museum. I’ve posted some of the great parodies of and responses to the notorious “Bananas: an atheist’s nightmare” clip on my blog at http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/blog/  I hope everyone finds them as amusing as I did. I find that I need a good dose of humor lest I burst into tears at the hard work and large sums of money being pumped into institutions that are opposed to science, reason and education…

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By my left foot, May 22, 2007 at 11:15 am Link to this comment
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It’s no child left behind except in matters involving supernaturalism ,and the ghosts , spirits and gods that inspire the ignorance is bliss population . Hopefully, these children won’t always be exposed to fiction, but they’ll have a lot of catching up to do when they finally do break free of the nonsensical fables and fairy tales . Everything even remotely related to biology has a standardized base that starts with evolution . To correctly understand this data you must have a sufficient background if you are to be successful in your studies , but no matter how you present it to them that hand goes up and the la la la la la la’s begin. They are taught to ignore you the minute evolution is mentioned and no amount of reasoning will suffice . It’s classic brainwashing !!

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By Eloise999, May 22, 2007 at 7:41 am Link to this comment

I think we should consider it child abuse when kids are deliberately fed creationist garbage to make them stupid. There is not the slightest evidence to support the idiotic notions that dinosaurs and humans co-existed, that T-rex was a herbivore (!), or that the universe is only about 6000 years old. Only the mentally ill could believe such nonsense in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. If Christians had their way, we’d all be living little better than the Bronze Age goat herders who wrote Genesis. They believed the Earth was a flat circle with a big dome of sky overhead. The dome was a solid structure with stars and planets embedded in it, and God could move them about like game pieces on a board. Oh, and you could reach the sky if you built a tall enough tower, but God would get angry and confuse your language. People believed this as the truth because they did not know any better, and now it’s in the Bible, and if you’re a Christian you have to accept it as truth, also, or else admit that the Bible is full of misinformation and nonsense. I suppose that’s Ken Hamstring’s next job—a museum devoted to the wonders of our flat Earth and its pretty sky-dome so that Christian children will be further compelled into the black hole of ignorance to which their parents have already consigned them. No wonder American kids are the dumbest in the industrialized world.

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By Webster, May 21, 2007 at 11:06 pm Link to this comment
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Chris Hedges claims, against *all* the evidence, that creationists inhabit, “A World Where Lies Are True.” A legitimate journalist would do research and discover that truth is the absolute foundation of the Christian faith.  As Paul wrote, “If Christ be not raised, [that is, if our claims about historical events are not true,] then your faith is worthless,” (1Cor 15:17).

I see much propaganda here, and very little in the way of factual data.  There is not a single fact listed that is to be “discarded”.  There is no argument that any “pseudo-science” is involved, just the assumption that anyone questioning scientific orthodoxy (as Copernicus & Galileo once did) must be an enemy.  He claims that “facts are treated as opinions” with no evidence and no specifics, (apparently, his case would be weakened if anyone were able to check his “facts”).

Surely his most absurd and self-defeating claim is this sentence, taken directly from the text:
“When facts are treated as if they were opinions, when there is no universal standard to determine truth, in law, in science, in scholarship, or in the reporting of the events of the day, the world becomes a place where people can believe what they want to believe, where there is no possibility of reaching any conclusion not predetermined by those who interpret the official, divinely inspired text.” 
I count at least two SEPARATE pairs of contradictions, just in this sentence alone!  Near the beginning, he says that “there is no universal standard,” but he finishes with reference to “the official, divinely inspired text.”  In between, he says that, “the world becomes a place where people can believe what they want to believe,” amazingly, not even a single word separated from the description of this place as being, “where there is no possibility of reaching any conclusion not predetermined”!

Beyond his transparent self-contradiction and irrational fear of fact-checking, perhaps his most laughable scare-mongering is against, “universities that teach all science through the prism of the Bible.”  First of all, does he not know that universities first grew out of church schools?  Is he really ignorant of the fact that science, as a discipline, arose only in Christian-influence Western Europe, where inquisitive minds believed in a “God of order”, who would create a world of order, who commanded people made “in His image” (hence, also of orderly mind) to have dominion (not ownership or tyranny) over that world, hence requiring them to do their best to understand it?  Is he not aware that Galileo, Kepler, Francis Bacon and Isaac Newton were all creationists, (Newton (at least) very explicitly a young-earth proponent)?

In short, Hedges plays fast and loose with what few facts he uses, and buries them in emotionally-charged innuendo like diamonds in truckloads of manure.

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By my left foot, May 21, 2007 at 9:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comments that are taken from the bible can be fielded in many literary works that are similar in philosophy worldwide . Take Islam, Hindu , The Torah , etc . Collectively I suppose I could find all of the works of the bible in a combination or combinations of works. Trinity’s and virgin births were abundant 600 years before Christ showed up . So what you are professing isn’t new it has however been packaged very cleverly over time. I don’t understand why Christians can’t reason in a similar manner and realize there book of mores isn’t the only one out there . I know , I know , this is the part where you feel the need to convince me that your book is the ultimate translation from god and that you worship the one true imagined god . There have been so many I’ve lost count. Your various sects have even omitted books claiming they didn’t contain the “breath of god ” like that macabees for instance . Although the catholic church offers this book still and its pronouncements of purgatory etc. There are so many others I just don’t have time here to list them all .

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By Christian, May 21, 2007 at 6:45 am Link to this comment
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“Creationism is not about offering an alternative.  Its goal is the destruction of the core values of the open society—the ability to think for oneself, to draw independent conclusions, to express dissent when judgment and common sense tell you something is wrong, to be self-critical, to challenge authority, to advocate for change and to accept that there are other views, different ways of being, that are morally and socially acceptable.”

Interestingly, if you’ve studied the Bible yourself (not relying on an explaination “predetermined by those who interpret the official, divinely inspired text”) then you would see this statement about what creationism is destroying is actually a statement exposing the self-centeredness of human nature Satan appealed to in Genesis 3:4 (“knowing good and evil”).  This theme is throughout the Bible and, as your statement shows, man wants to be self-reliant on his own Knowledge and Will as opposed to submitting to a perfect God, and ultimately submitting to Jesus for salvation from our sinning against God.

Your statement also is a fulfillment of 2 Timothy 4:3-4 “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.”

The Bible (and Christianity as described in the Bible) is all about living peacefully together because we need to first humble ourselves by acknowledging there is a Living God who is much bigger than us, trusting in Jesus to forgive your personal sins of disobeying God, and then loving our fellow man as we love ourselves.

Don’t solely rely on what people say about the Bible and Christianity—read it yourself and remove all doubt!

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By my left foot, May 19, 2007 at 7:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I agree with Yezbok sometimes when you are dealing with vulnerable people you need to give them something to run paralell and then let them choose . I think the museum Yezbok describes would be an excellent alternative followed by a darwinian narrative that simplifies the process. Placing it across the street from a creationist museum with plenty of glitter and circumstance would also make sense ,Let’s select a board of directors and make it happen…. Good thinking Yezbok

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By yezbok drahcir, May 18, 2007 at 9:18 pm Link to this comment
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Forget censorship; build a ‘Totalitarian Museum’ across the street.  Feature past dictators, showing how they were empowered by the exploitation of religion and the suppression of reason, and how crucifixions, inquisitions and genocide happened in the name of “saving nations” from “the wrath of God”.

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By Your Mom, May 10, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Get a job! Get off this site and get busy! Stop laying around eating potato chips and talking to crazy people on a computer. Can’t you think of anything else to do with your life?  Is this how I brought you up? To be some kind of bum? Find a hobby worth doing. Get a life worth living. Yours is obviously in shambles.

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By Jim H., May 10, 2007 at 9:39 am Link to this comment
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To: 69060
Need a   Doc?
Look in the mirror!  And, repeat after ‘me’:
“Your jibber jabber would be funny if it wasn’t so bizarre.
Are you on crack, alcohol, and meth at the same time? It seems that way!!!!! Whatever, get help and don’t talk to me until you do. You type nothing but wasted garbage. It almost looks like UNIX programming information that was affected by a serious computer virus. Senseless.”    INANE!

But at least I am not an enslaved robotic GODIST denying reality for insanity!

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By Agree w/Doc, May 9, 2007 at 6:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

RE:68473

Jim Bob:
Let me introduce you this thing called Eastern Time. Ever heard of it? It means there is a 3 hour difference with these postings. No your not keeping me up, I get up to go to a full time job everyday. Something I wonder if any of you people have or have had in the past. You see I sleep just fine and wake up with peace.
Your jibber jabber would be funny if it wasn’t so bizarre.

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