I’m surprised that I don’t find the word agnostic used in Mr. Stark’s article or in the comments that follow. While I prefer “secular humanist”, I will admit to being an agnostic in the sense that, one, I simply acknowledge that I don’t know and cannot know. and two, I am perfectly comfortable in not knowing. I am a devotee of the arts, particularly poetry and the theatre.  Only through the arts are we afforded an occasional glimpse into the otherwise incomprehensable, and I find this exciting and fulfilling. I have no need for superstition. I’d like to think that the spirtualism Mr. Stark refers to is similar to mine.

If Pete Stark is the first to “come out”, shame on this country. I’m sure there are many more of us than we think. We just don’t have Pete’s guts.

The tide of free independent thinkers seems to have peaked several centuries ago during the Age of Reason. Maybe we can now begin to re-discover our spines. Come on people. Confront! Dispute! Don’t just let bigotry and hypocrisy prevail just because it makes people uncomfortable or social situations awkward. If not us, who?

Those who demand acquiescence to their beliefs demonstrate, in the most fundamental way possible, their terror that they might be wrong.

Contrary to the musings of Dostoyevsky, who claimed that if God does not exist anything is permissible, if God does not exist we become ultimately responsible. To accept this challenge suggests true courage. To rely on the constructions and countless reinterpretations of ancient writings is to abdicate oneself, and by extension, the society of others.

Whatever the ideals that may share editorial space with some of the horrors that constitute the Bible, a god that we can understand is probably not worth believing in. By contrast, the fact that the universe is an ongoing miracle that renews (or should renew) our wonder daily is the foundation of true religious feeling.

To put religious zealots of whatever persuasion in charge of the apparatus of state affairs is to put the lunatics in charge of the asylum—and they love the lobotomized.

As a native of Hayward, California, (Stark’s district) I’m glowing with pride for my congressman. Not to say that I share his non belief, but I’m proud of him none the less. It takes courage to stand up to the religous right, I’m glad he felt empowered to do it.

It’s about time we grew up and quit
   
    longing for a “big daddy” in the sky.

Finally!  And about time too.  Can our country at last come to its senses and see that people like me are citizens, thinking people - just like anyone else - who live their lives in the same way as everyone else? 

We, atheists, believe in many things - just as many as any other human beings do.  Just not in a religion. 

And I vote - and always have done.  Nothing bursts into flame while I’m behind the curtain - that I’ve ever noticed!

I used to be a Christian, raised through 12 grueling years in Catholic schools. Lately I have been put off my spiritual feed by these born again evangelicals.  If these neo-con traitorious war-mongers are Christ driven I think they need to read the gospels. The above prayer by Mark Twain seems their creedo. It is so timely it should be chiseled into the Pentagon just where the 16 foot Boeing crashed through.  God save us from the Christian right which is neither. Hallejula brother pass the political plate and leave some bomblets for the
little kids in Afghanistan

Re: “Death Wish”

I think perhaps that the tendency for people to readily believe in and to put faith in a supreme being that will “help those who believe” is actually due more to LAZINESS.

One can be simply more lazy with a God on your side.

Environment? God will take care of us.

Global warming? God will take care of us.

Pollution, Corruption, Federal Deficits, Richer get Richer, Poorer get Poorer… God will take care of us.

The trouble with America is that YOU ARE NOT PRAYING HARD ENOUGH!!!!

As an 82 year old vet of WWII and a atheist in the fox hole, on leaving the service I composed my epitaph.
With open mouth and open mind,
I came into the world to find,
Life’s riddle in one word defined
BELIEVE:
And now that life is left behind,
And though I know they meant be kind,
With open mouth and open mind,
I leave.

THANK YOU CONGRESSMAN It’s about time.

We only have to look at the estimable folks who might share Mr. Stark’s position to realize that people don’t have to be religious to be good, generous and trustworthy.  Humanism has become a pejorative term, but the truth is something a whole lot different. Furthermore, the vile history of much that has been called “religious” can only illuminate the alternatives.

And he hasn’t been burned at the stake yet? There is hope for the country after all.

There have been just a couple things in my life that have totally “destroyed” me because they were so funny.  One was “Bad things happen when a screech trumpeter meets Mahler” and another is the prayer by Mark Twain that Greg Bacon posted.  Thanks, Greg, I’m gonna get off the floor when I get my strength back.  I thought I hated everything religious, but I sure love that.

A PRAYER by MARK TWAIN

“O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle—be Thou near them! With them—in spirit—we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it—for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

How refreshing; someone who speaks the truth. Why are so many Americans willing to let the Christian Right screw up the Constitution. There is no God in the Constitution.

Freud spoke of a “Death WIsh”. That so many of us through the ages have put our faith in a super-being that we believe to be all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful, despite all the evidence to the contrary, and despite all the human misery brought on by this absurd and curious belief, seems proof (without the need for faith)that the good Doctor was on to something.

After reading these posts, I am amazed that some of you continue to insist that Stark called himself an atheist when he actually called himself a non-theist.  Must people either be on one “side” or another?  What is with this dualistic thinking? 

I don’t believe in a supreme being, but I don’t consider myself an athiest. I’m a non-theist. I simply do not define my religious beliefs by the absence of a supreme being. Someone who is a non-theist may have an experienced-based mystical sense of the universe (or not). It would seem that according to some on this post someone with such a world view would have to be seen as being filled with mumbo jumbo and unable to be a part of the reality-based community. Not true.

I have a very practical approach to mystical experience, which requires me to subject these experiences to the rigors of reason and practical application of knowledge gained—e.g., Can this experience teach me something about life and can it reasonably lead me to behaviors that will affirm and enhance life, bring harmony and beauty to the world?  (If not, it is simply enjoyed; if so, it becomes part of my world view—that which informs my actions.)

And yet I know “athiests” who have a less rational approach to their experiences of nature (though they would not describe them as mystical even though others might)—that is, I know athiests who are enthralled by the mystery of the universe and yet would never label their awe in religious terms. For all of their reliance on science and reason, they are left speechless when confronted with what IS. 

I don’t see these athiests, with their well-worked out codes of ethics and appreciation of the awe inspiring universe to be any less religious than most folk, but they would deny that viewpoint of mine and that’s fine.

I suggest we stop trying to people people into camps and judging everyone who does not think like us as someone who would force his/her religious beliefs on the majority us—say, through turning this country into a Christian nation.

Good for Mr. Stark!
Now maybe more political folks will feel free to speak honestly about their views.
We continue to allow our intrinsic spirituality to be hijacked by religion and the sooner we rid our society of these ridiculous mythological views the better off we will all be.

Pete Stark’s my congressman, and I like him a lot.

I’ve voted for him every time he’s run since I’ve lived in his district, and I’m proud of him.  He’s a damn fine congressman, and he has the courage of his convictions.

give me reality based governance any day.

if you are fool enough to believe in santa claus in the sky, then you’re fool enough to believe all the bushco lies.

it’s all about gullibility.

Speaking AS a heathen-american, I think it’s long-overdue for a lot of these religious institutions to get their well-deserved haircuts and get out of the CITIZENS’ hair with their money schemes, their faux piety(ref. rev. Haggard on THAT one),
and their strong political leanings. We don’t need de-facto american ‘mullahs’ out riling people up over this or that, Pat Robertson’s unforgettable slams on Venezuela should give anyone pause before they throw money in that collection plate or order their personalized gilt-edged religious literature of ANY denomination,
frankly yes it’s been a long time coming that
they sort themselves out ecumenically AND politically.  If you are of the faith, or at least literate, there’s a relevant reference in one of the books of the Bible, and likely repeated in other religious tracts, that discusses Jesus’ take on having people turn religion into a profitable business. If you’re so inclined reference the book of Matthew, and ‘money changers’, and Jesus’ lost sandal. Well, the book doesn’t exactly SAY where his sandal ended up, but you can kind of infer what probably happened, there. Anyway, if it goes against the doctrine of the faith that they’re trying to prosyletize, out there, AND it goes against good judgement and anything resembling common sense, sends up a red flag on the old B.S. detector, there’s likely something rotten in Denmark, there, something not quite cricket, not quite kosher, doesn’t point north, etc etc etc., and I think the public SHOULD get informed about the actions and monetary goings-on down at their local chapter of the First Church Of The Perpetually Faithful etc. I’m all for people enjoying their religious freedoms, as long as that’s an informed and politely skeptical take on the old religious freedom, doesn’t involve scalping people for billions of dollars, machine guns, or attempting to use the pulpit to campaign for high office when the podium is instead indicated. We may be ‘one nation, under God’ and so forth, but the money says ‘in God we trust’(all others pay cash). That last part is written in Lincoln’s hair, look really really close under a magnifier, and you’ll find it….
(If you believe this, please make note of MY religious charity, no donation too large, no monetary denomination too small! Best of all, give ME your money, and I won’t send you a damn thing!)LOL P.T. Barnum and his competitor never had it so good…

The dawning of the Age of Reason?

It’s about time.

It always is consistent how seriously the religious believe in a god, but if you study the history of the Christian religion, it is astounding the number of Christian sects that have been established because one or a few decide they don’t like the way things are going so let us go off and devise a version of religion the way we want it to function:  you know, Lutherans, Mormons, Catholics, Episcopalians, etc., etc.  So why not allow non-believers in the mix?

Although organized religion is mythology misrepresented, it’s deviseiveness has been the cause of violence, mayhem, and murder for centuries.The present wars are mainly the result of religious differences .

We need clear thinking people in leadership, not superstitious or delusional types. How can I expect rational thought on the important issues we face from someone who believes in devils or who claims to communicate with dieties? This isn’t the dark ages and the stakes are to high for decision making based in mysticism.

I can’t believe Stark’s the first to come out as an atheist, and I hope he’s only the beginning. Hopefully his courage will inspire others to come out, too…

Ellen, thanks for not letting this issue die.

There’s likely a story breaking today that John Edwards wife has relapsed in her battle with cancer. Edwards will give us the “it’s God’s will and we will get through it with our faith” deal. This will be a heart-tugging story and will have most Americans rightly empathizing with the Edwards family. We shouldn’t care how the thought of “God’s will” can comfort this family. The truth is we need to explore how “God’s will” plays into the decision making of anyone running for public office.

When (and it always does) “God’s will” causes our nation to go to war, leave New Orleans in disarray and allow veterans hospitals to degrade we have a problem. God is not coming to back us or fix these problems. God is not on our side or anyone’s side. There in fact, IS NO GOD!

Stark’s comments that he is a non-theist is very telling.  In the public sphere when it comes to religion and religious belief, we Americans act as if we are stuck choosing between being an atheist, an agnostic, or a theist—that is, a monotheist, as if theists who are not mono-theists do not exist.

We also ignore, at least in the public sphere, that there are non-monotheistics ways to conceptualize God. This leaves many people believing that atheists or non-theists are without religion and without God when, in fact, they may conceptualize God differently.  Indeed, there are Christians, Jews, and Muslims—people of monotheistic faiths—who do not believe in a supreme being (a father in the sky, or God in the box), but do believe in God…in ways that may be similar to people of other non-monotheistic religions.  Indeed, some who attend monotheistic churches are pantheists, others are panantheists, and still others are monists, and the list goes on.

Many people, when they come to realize that they don’t believe of the God-In-The-Box of their childood church, believe that they must be either atheists or agnostics, and their spiritual growth can be somewhat crippled by this focus on not believing rather than turning their focus to what they do believe about the universe that cannot be seen but may be experienced.  By narrowly defining monotheism to mean the belief in a Supreme Being, some if not many feel compelled to leave the churches of their youth rather than enrich it with their other than God-In-The-Box conceptualizations of God.

The choice that Stark made in calling himself a non-theist is key to demontrasting that he hasn’t bought into this false choice and he furthers this understanding of the false choice by making it clear that he does not believe in a supreme being (no father in the sky).  What his statement doesn’t tell us is what he does believe in.  Perhaps that’s because he has no need to broadcast his religious beliefs, perhaps he has no need to seek our approval, perhaps he has no need to convert anyone…perhaps he simply lives his religious convictions like so many of us non-theists do.

Now why should any one be astounded that we have a politician who has evolved away from religious chicanery? We have had up close and personal an Administration that is so blinded by religous light that they can’t read the constitution, do not believe they have to follow the laws and whose actions have led to un-needed use and abuse of our military in a country that didn’t attack us and had nothing to do with 9/11, or anything else to do with reality.

Many of the best thinkers at the time the country was established, certainly had their doubts about the religion that had brought us most of 2000 years of torture, killing, stealing and oppresion in the name of GOD. Thank goodness there is at lest one politician who understands this.

It’s about time. Mind you, there are probably a good many other atheists in office, who are simply too cowed by the vile shrills of derision spouted against those who don’t subscribe to the predominant mythology.

As a Mormon living in New York, I have certainly come across a lot of ignorance and some bigotry concerning my religion.  So one would think that is something I would be used to by now.  The reaction to Mitt Romney from some of the ‘Christian right’, however has left me stunned.
I understand, though I may not agree, with some of my more liberal friends reasons for not supporting Mitt Romney.  They and I, certainly have some differences of opinion over abortion, gay rights, etc.  They will not vote for Mr. Romney because of the issues.
Sadly though, that does not seem to be the case with a good portion of the Chistian right.  They agree with Mitt Romney on the issues.  But will not vote for him because of his religion.  The amazing thing, is how many are willing to abandon their ‘values’ and support Rudolph Giuliani instead. (I have nothing against Mr. Giuliana, but let’s be honest, he is a bit of a liberal.)  Anything, but vote for a Mormon. 
Apparently, quite a few of them are scared of the competition -  worried that a Mormon President would further the cause of LDS missionary work.  Far be it for me to point out to them that not voting for Mitt Romney because of his religion will diminish them, their religion, and their influence in this country.  It will hurt them far more than any ‘Mormon competition’.
I believe that most Americans are against bigotry, though we may all struggle at times with our own biases from time to time.  But when we let these biases influence public life, hopefully most Americans will be able to see it for what it is - bigotry.  When that happens, whatever group it is that harbors those biases will thankfully see their influence diminish among the great citizens of this nation.

Our Founding Fathers and Religion
posted by The Liberal Avenger @ 6:09 PM

One of the most established memes on the right these days is that America’s founding fathers were to the one devout Christians, that they created The United States of America as a Christian Nation and that in fact the concept of “The Separation of Church and State” is a modern construct that has the founding fathers turning in their graves.

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

While it is beyond dispute that the founding fathers were likely mostly if not all Christians, they did in fact deliberately create The United States as an areligious entity, for they were suspicious of organized religion and well aware of the pitfalls of state religion as the following quotes demonstrate:

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.  This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose.”
  Jefferson - to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

“Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the Common Law.”
Jefferson -letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, 1814

Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.

- George Washington

Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.

- George Washington

...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction.

- George Washington, 1789 (responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ)

The primary leaders of the founding fathers of our nation were not Bible-believing Christians; they were deists including:

George Washington
Benjamin Franklin
Thomas Jefferson
James Madison
Thomas Paine
Ethan Allen
James Monroe

Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects. [James Madison, letter to William Bradford, Jr., Jauary 1774]

Benjamin Franklin wasn’t sure if Jesus was God or not, but said he didn’t plan to spend time worrying about it.
————

“As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion…”

From Article 11 of the Treaty of Tripoli 1797. Unanimously ratified by the U.S. Senate and signed by President John Adams.

Thank God I’m an Atheist!

How many politicians who say they believe in “a supreme being” don’t?