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 When They Came for the Homosexuals…Posted on Mar 11, 2007
By Chris Hedges On the morning of March 8 in Sioux Center, Iowa, two buses parked outside a hotel were found covered with anti-gay slurs, along with a hate-filled message on a piece of cardboard reading: “God does not love feary fags.” The buses were transporting some 50 lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender students, along with supporters, on the start of a two-month trip to 32 Christian colleges with policies that discriminate against those who are not heterosexuals. The Equality Ride, as it is known, organized by Soulforce, had first traveled to Sioux Center to visit Dordt College, a school that counts “sexual activity with someone of the same gender” as possible grounds for “an employee’s discharge or a student’s dismissal.” The harassment is not new. During a similar series of protests last year, someone in Cleveland, Tenn., scrawled “fags-mobile” on the side of the bus. Members of the Equality Ride have been arrested for trespassing, at the West Point military academy and elsewhere, and greeted at many of their stops with active hostility. The night before the buses were spray-painted with hateful slogans, three vehicles circled the hotel where the activists were staying to harass those inside. The website has more on the ride, including pictures of the bus graffiti. But what is important is not this specific incident, or any other recent examples of public intolerance, but the seismic shift in public mood in much of the United States, a shift largely engineered by the radical Christian right. The Christian right has begun to strip gays and lesbians of their constitutional rights and render them second-class citizens. The gay rights movement, which made many gains over the past couple of decades, is reeling backward. And the mounting persecution of gays and lesbians is ominous not only for them but for the rest of society. I spent two years reporting and writing “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America.” At the numerous gatherings I attended around the country, one of the driving forces and most effective mobilizing agents was the issue of sexuality. This mass movement, led by figures such as James Dobson, claims that tolerance of “alternative lifestyles” is eroding the American family. They describe “same-sex attraction” as a disease that can be cured. And they condemn all sexual love that is not heterosexual as an abomination in the eyes of God. Gays and lesbians still within the church, seeking desperately to deny their sexuality and remain in the Christian collective, often suffer severe depression and blows to their self-esteem. The U.S. surgeon general’s office has published data indicating that those who are young and gay are two to three times more likely to commit suicide. Those who conform, no matter what the personal cost, will find acceptance. Those who remain militant, who stand up for another way of being, must be silenced. The methods that will finally sever them and their supporters from a Christian America are often left unmentioned, but the rhetoric makes clear that there will not be a place for them. Gays and lesbians, like other enemies of Christ, are not fully human. They are “unnatural.” And preachers in the movement argue that if America does not act soon to eradicate homosexual behavior, God will punish the nation. These attacks mask a sinister agenda that has nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with power. The radical Christian right—the most dangerous mass movement in American history—has built a binary worldview of command and submission wherein male leaders, who cannot be questioned and claim to speak for God, are in control and all others must follow. Any lifestyle outside the traditional model of male and female is a threat to this hierarchical male power structure. Women who do not depend on men for their identity and their sexuality, who live outside a male power relationship, challenge this pervasive cult of masculinity, as do men who find tenderness and love with other men as equals. The lifestyle of gays and lesbians is intolerable to the Christian right because its existence is a threat to the movement’s chain of command, one they insist was ordained by God. This hypermasculinity, which crushes the independence and self-expression of women, is a way for men in the movement to compensate for the curtailing of their own independence, their blind obedience to church authorities and the calls for sexual restraint. The images of Jesus often show him with thick muscles, clutching a sword. Christian men are portrayed as powerful warriors. Jesus’ stoic endurance of the brutal whippings in Mel Gibson’s movie “The Passion of the Christ” presages the brutal, masculine world of this ideology, a world that knows little of tenderness, personal freedom, nurturing and even pleasure. Jerry Falwell, in a New Yorker interview, said Christ was not a gentle-looking, willowy man: “Christ was a man with muscles,” he insisted. Falwell and Gibson see real men, godly men, as powerful, able to endure physical pain and suffering without complaint. Jesus, like God, has to be a real man, a man who dominates through force. The language of the movement is filled with metaphors about the use of excessive force and violence against God’s enemies. The unspoken truth is that Christian men are required to have a personal, loving relationship with a male deity and surrender their will to a male-dominated authoritarian church. The submission to church authority is a potent form of emasculation. It entails a surrendering of conscience and personal control and deadens emotions and feelings. Glorified acts of force and violence against outsiders, against nonbelievers, compensate for this unquestioning submission. The domination that men are encouraged to practice in the home over women and children becomes a reflection of the domination they are taught to endure outside the home. This cult of masculinity keeps all ambiguity, especially sexual ambiguity, in check. It fosters this world of binary opposites: God and man, the saved and the unsaved, the church and the world, Christianity and secular humanism, and male and female. There runs through this radical belief system a dread of disorder and chaos. The belief in a binary universe helps believers avoid confronting the confusion of human existence. Reality, when it is defined in these absolutes, is made predictable and understandable. All configurations of human life that do not conform to the rigid Christian model, such as homosexuality, are forms of disorder and tools of Satan and must be abolished. A world that can be predicted and understood, a world that has clear markers, can be managed and controlled. This petrified world of fixed, immutable and established roles is a world where people, many of them damaged by bouts with failure and despair, can bury their chaotic and fragmented personalities. They can live with the illusion that they are strong, whole and protected. Those who do not fit into these rigid categories, who are not subservient to dominant Christian males, must be proselytized, converted and “cured” through quack therapy. The Christian right believes the decline of male prowess has caused the decline of America, which has led to weakness and moral decay. This decline has resulted in a bewildering human and social complexity that, often seen as feminine, is the work of Satan. By submitting to the Christian leader, and to a powerful male God who will destroy those who misbehave, followers avoid dealing with life. The movement seeks, above all, to banish mystery, the very essence of faith. Not only is the binary world knowable and predictable, but finally God is knowable and predictable. This parallel reality creates a world where unconscious motives, lusts, passions, sexual yearnings, deep longings and fears are buried and denied. The capacity we all have for evil is no longer something that torments the human soul, something that must be confronted and acknowledged, but instead evil is transformed into a purely external force that can be eradicated. The cut-and-dry absolute truth, the division of the world into us and them, allows followers to surrender their consciences and moral responsibility to male demagogues. It also makes them very dangerous. The Rev. Mel White, who founded Soulforce and is one of our country’s most important if unacknowledged civil rights leaders, has spent most of his life, since coming out as a gay man, mounting nonviolent protests against these “Christian” bigots. But he and most gays and lesbians who resist usually resist alone. “They [the Christian right] want to end homosexuality in America,” White told me, “and by doing that one step at a time, first the federal marriage amendment and then comes no adoption, no service in the military, the restatement of the sodomy laws and driving us back into our closets, or worse. They do not want to compromise, but they begin with compromise, after compromise, after compromise.” The advance, White says, is demoralizing the gay community, which he warns “is losing the will to fight.” “It’s safer back in the closet anyway, and since we can pass, or the gay leaders can pass, the ones who wear suits and have good jobs and have plenty of money, they will go underground,” he said. “It is the gay people out there in the hinterlands who have no options. They are being rejected by their families, discarded by their parents, kicked out of their jobs, harassed, ‘outed’ and killed. The gay leaders don’t have a clue about this suffering.” “There are no fountains or cafeterias or bus stations we can integrate,” White continued. “There are no symbols that we can attack. Marriage, the one great act of defiance, in San Francisco and Massachusetts showed to the country gay couples lined up to get married. This is something they [right-wing Christians] didn’t like. The faces looked normal. They had children. These pictures were killing the caricatures. That for me is one of the great things we’ve done, just go to get married no matter what.” “What frightens me most are gay people who don’t understand what’s happening and who are unwilling to take a stand,” he said. “Once they take away our rights they’re going to start wanting to register us because we’re the ones who have the most sexually transmitted diseases. They’re going to say ‘we want to register you so we can give you special medical attention.’ Quarantine comes next, along with taking away our children, the children we’ve adopted. They will take away the partnership rights the corporations put in place, because they can put pressure on the corporations. My bleakest description is that we’ll not only be driven back into our closets, but we’ll have to leave the country. Right now, we have to leave the state of Virginia, because of the law that says we can’t have any agreements, or any contracts, or any powers of attorney that represent marriage. So every gay person who has a business here lives in fear.” My ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, Dr. James Luther Adams, told us to watch closely what the Christian right did to homosexuals. He had seen the same tactic in Nazi Germany, where he spent 1935 and 1936 working with the underground anti-Nazi church known as the Confessing Church. The Nazis also used “values” to launch state repression of opponents. Hitler, days after he took power in 1933, imposed a ban on all homosexual organizations. He ordered raids on places where homosexuals gathered, culminating in the ransacking of the Institute for Sexual Science in Berlin and the permanent exile of its director, Magnus Hirschfeld. Thousands of volumes from the institute’s library were tossed into a bonfire. The stripping of these Germans’ civil rights was largely cheered by the public and the German churches. But it legitimated tactics, outside the law, that would soon be employed against others. Adams said homosexuals would also be the first “social deviants” singled out and disempowered by the Christian right, but not the last. Should another catastrophic attack such as 9/11 occur, should we enter into a period of prolonged instability and fear, what will prevent these preachers from calling for the punishment, detention and quarantining of gays and lesbians, as well as abortionists and Muslims and other nonbelievers to safeguard the nation? What will staunch hate crimes and physical attacks against those deemed immoral by fearful and angry Christians, against those whom these preachers have condemned as responsible for the nation’s abandonment by God? How will the nation function rationally if homeland security depends on an elusive piety as it is interpreted by the Christian right? And most ominously, the fringe groups of the Christian right believe “Bible-believing Christians” have been mandated by God to carry out Christian terrorism, to murder doctors who perform abortions and godless Muslims. In a time of anxiety and chaos, of overwhelming fear and uncertainty, how many more will be prodded by this talk of terror and divine vengeance to join the ranks of these Christian extremists? Correction: Only one (the Eastbound bus) of the two buses went to Sioux Center, Iowa. The bus was spray painted with “God does not love gay feary fucks.” A piece of cardboad contained other anti-gay remarks. The Eastbound bus only had 26 riders, the others were on the Westbound bus. Thanks to reader Brandon Greeson for the catch! Previous item: Bush Strips Libby of Nickname Next item: The Forgotten War Elsewhere: . CommentsAre you a Truthdig member yet? Login now, or register with Truthdig. |
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By Kathy, September 3, 2007 at 5:43 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I’m with Carlos. It’s not my job to tell others how to live or what to believe. I figure that’s Gods job. I just pray, literally, that all Christians aren’t judged by the loons on the far Christian right.
Report thisBy Skruff, May 7, 2007 at 5:49 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
60829 by Matt Kremer on 3/27 at 4:57 pm says:
“Does anyone want Hedges to run our military? We’d be beaten by the Swiss.”
Now the only question remains… Are the Swiss better soldiers than Iraq1is or Vietnamese? Historically, the Swiss have repelled some far superior invaders… Which begs another question: Would Mr. Hedges be a better commander-in-chief than GWB?
Report thisBy j.a.m., May 5, 2007 at 10:03 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Jesus is often depicted brandishing a sword? Huh?
Of Hedges’ many bizarre, unsubstantiated claims, that’s merely the most egregious.
Not content with garden-variety bigotry, Hedges allows his febrile imagination to transport him into a delusional, fantastical realm of paranoia and pure hate.
I pray he seeks help. Very soon.
Report thisBy old benjamin, April 5, 2007 at 9:51 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Speaking as an elder jarhead, it ain’t healthy to declare yourself a homo in that outfit. Those guys carry real guns. If you wanna stay top side, keep it to yourself. Not PC, just common sense, and it’s not likely to change much, I hope.
Report thisBy Skruff, March 28, 2007 at 4:35 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #60829 by Matt Kremer on 3/27 at 4:57 pm
Boy, what a rant.
Although I’m not totally convinced by Hedge’s argument, I find the attacks from the other side to be historically...humm shall we say tepid?\
The same arguments used by Mr. Kremer
unit cohesion as an excuse to keep gays out of military services was used by various countries to block women, Blacks, christians and jews from serving. While acient Rome had no equal rights laws, our country has a history of “inclusion” (although sometimes hard fought. If a woman, person of color, or a gay can be required to pay taxes, they must be allowed to fully participate in our “cultural process” if that process takes us to war, than everyone who owns a piece of these united states should be able to enlist.
I personally believe even the age laws are discriminatory.. bet the Army, Navy, or Airforce could use the civilian experience of a 50-year-old book-keeper, cook, or teacher.
Ditto the “Icon” of marrige. If the State performs marriages, then they should provide this service for everyone. The alternative 9and one I support) is to get the State out of the marriage business, allow the government to tax everyone as single folk, and put marriage back (exclusively) in the church where it belongs.
As to the “no war on gays” statement, I suggest one asks Matt Sheppard of Wyoming or Charlie Howard of Maine about the “war.” oops can’t. they are dead at the hands of people who CLAIM to be christian.
Report thisBy Matt Kremer, March 27, 2007 at 4:57 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hedges is just Christian-phobic. And that from a Jew.
The issue is not gayness, it is, in the case or military, unit cohesion. Does anyone want Hedges to run our military? We’d be beaten by the Swiss.
In the case of gay marriage, it is historical, cultural and logical. I believe gays should not suffer tax-wise and etc. from not being allowed to “marry”, but marriage itself is too much of a cultural icon to turn into “anybody can do it”. Historically, culturally and logically it has been a hetero union. Gays are not going to change that in any timeframe shorter than 50 years, at least, even if then (unless you’re an idiot on the MA supreme court).
From the Right, there is no intent for a war on gays. The Right sees a war on traditional values. Whose to say they’re wrong?
From the Left, there is a phobia against religion. Hedges is just one manisfestation of that irrationale belief. Somebody should make sure he doesn’t run around with scissors.
Report thisBy racetoinfinity, March 21, 2007 at 8:56 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
This is precisely the SAME LEVEL of dim consciousness and behavior as the fundamentalist Muslims ("Isalmo-fascists"), it is plain for anyone with clear eyes and a rational modern mind to see. Same deep fascist structure and belief system(s) with different surface features ("Christianity" and “Islam").
The same polarized black-and-white, us vs. them, authoritarian, dogmatic, no independent thinking allowed,, cult of masculinity, denigration of the feminine and devaluation of women, etc. etc.
It’s called the mythic-membership level of consciousness and it’s medieval, pre-modern, and dangerous, whether in the Middle East or in America.
Report thisBy Carlos, March 21, 2007 at 10:44 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
The problem here is that the majority of Christians do not hate homosexuals, it is just that the extremist, wacko, and uneducated Christians are the ones getting the press.
I am a Christian pastor and have had friends who are gay. Do I hate them? No, never did, never will. If I hated people because they are gay, then I have no business being a pastor. When I accepted Christ and gave my life to Him, I was overwhelmed with love and compassion for everyone...including homosexuals.
Does this mean I condone a homosexual lifestyle. No. It doesn’t. Plain and simple. But, the last time I checked, I am not God and so it is not up to me to condemn or judge what a person does. I am called to pray for them, whatever the circumstance, and to love them. I am to love the sinner (I am one myself) and to try and help them anyway I can.
This just hit home with me on a whole different level not too long ago.
I was watching the national news and they were reporting on the war in Iraq. They showed Iraquis dancing about our guys being killed at a roadside bomb, burning our flag, etc. In my anger, I remember thinking, “God, just wipe out that whole area over there and get rid of them.”
His reply was immediate.
“No, I died for them too. Pray for them.”
So, judge me as you will. And yes, the church is full of hypocrites/humans/sinners, join us some Sunday, you will you? Heck, I have never met someone who hasn’t been guilty of hypocrisy at some point in their lives. But through Christ, we can love and help each other through all the storms, all the hurts, and all the pains.
diggin Jesus,
Pastor Bald Dude
Report thisBy Broiler, March 19, 2007 at 5:59 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
The correct answer is to configure and accept rights and laws based on HUMAN equality. If hetero marriages are acceptable so are homo marriages. Everyone has a right or no one has. There is no reason-based argument against this thinking. We can only promote what is known to all not what is believed by some.
“Sins of the flesh” is a petty subject and not worthy of the time and resources being devoted to control them. What sort of faith promotes this hounding of non-believers over more pressing matters? It’s time to clear the temple of hypocrites and crystal-meth dabblers. Clean your own house. Your salvation is based on being true to “your faith” not enslaving others in it.
Report thisBy Skruff, March 17, 2007 at 3:09 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
ACTUALLY, this is more than a gay/straight issue. It is a fairness issue. If I’m a single man who works for a company that offees health insurance for “family members” should I not be able to get that benefit, because society has defined “family” as offspring and sopuse?
Why not my non-working sister, my aged parent who worked for a company now in bankrupcy, or my brothers child not covered under his policy?
I Reject the US IRS based notion of “family” My family is the people I choose to include.
Report thisBy connor, March 17, 2007 at 11:37 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
“This is what I believe. End of story.”
exactly, christianjoe. you have pointed out the problem more concisely than anyone else...whether or not you meant to.
Report thisBy tyler, March 16, 2007 at 5:01 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
to christian joe:
intolerance of intolerance is not bigotry. Denying someone’s rights because of a belief system specific to one group of people (christians who don’t like homosexuals) is. Figure it out christian joe.
To say that homosexuality is not a human rights issue is just stupid, plain and simple. Last time I checked, all my gay friends and business associates are human, and the issue is over their rights!
What does it matter anyway wether a person is born gay or chooses to be gay? I don’t understand how one couple’s relationship, gay or straight, can be of any affect to anyone else? If two people are in a loving, productive relationship, wether MM, MF or FF, how is that in any way a bad thing? How does it affect your daily life christian joe? If you can tell me how, in any way, how a gay couple’s existence affects you and your freedoms in any negative way, I will shut my mouth on the subject.
To say right now that individuals are, or are not born gay is an opinion, and arguing your opinion is pointless christian joe, it just further paints you as the bigot you are.
You say you THINK you’ve found the truth, joe christian? You don’t sound too convinced, and I’ll tell you why, YOU HAVEN’T. Your far from it, and you’re not getting any warmer.
Report thisBy christianjoe, March 15, 2007 at 2:13 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Homosexuality is not a human rights issue. Individuals are not born gay. This is what I believe. End of story. But this isn’t a black and white issue. There is not a standard way to determine whether someone will be gay or not...jock of femm...or even to predict it.
I am on the search for truth. And I think I’ve found it...but there’s always the possibilty I’m wrong. Many of you feel like truth is telling you that individuals are born gay. Neither one of us can empirically prove our beliefs. So now what? I’m fine with your beliefs. I’m not forcing mine onto you. And I won’t deny my beliefs, either. But that doesn’t make me a bigot. Intolerance for my beliefs...I’m pretty sure that’s bigotry...especially since neither side has proven anything.
Report thisBy Firewalker, March 15, 2007 at 8:58 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Paige (from 58449),
notice #58449 by bob zimmeran and #58223 by thea quoting Martin Niemoller’s poem.
speak out. the silent majority is just as bad as the fundamental minority because they let it happen. and that applies to many groups beside chrisians as well.
Report thisBy tyler, March 14, 2007 at 8:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
To christian joe:
Your comment #58175 is a real laugh! When you say, “Child development psychology tells us..”, do you mean thats a title of a book? Is it a person? Is there one definitive authority on the subject? Where can I find this info and read it for myself, because what you say is totally inconsistent.
“..if a gay man does not fit in with “the boys” throughout childhood, then he will be attracted to males later in life because he always related to females.”
Are you being serious? Again, please tell me where you learned this, does your church offer psychology classes? What about the kids who were ‘jocks’ growing up, and still came out as being gay? A good friend of mine’s older brother was a total jock in every sense of the word in high school, all the girls wanted to date him, and he dated a lot of ‘em! While in med. school though, he came out. Good family, lots of brothers and sisters, no abuse, stereo-typical jock, so how do your theories explain that? I have a cousin, who while in elementary school, enjoyed playing with barbies, ALL the time. He’s in his early twenties now, and has a healthy dating life, DATING GIRLS.
Your theory is so ambiguous, how can you justify laying down judgement on a group of people that have NO IMPACT ON YOUR LIFE? Why do you care to?
What this issue is over is human rights, NOT psychology, and NOT religion. Human rights transcends both those things.
Oh, and christian joe, I see something in your eye, looks like a beam, and its got BIGOTRY carved on the side of it.
Report thisBy Ottovstar, March 14, 2007 at 7:44 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Re#58616 by billy:
Oh,come on, Billy, it’s obvious! Christianjoe is victimized because he is jealous. He gets a chub every time he sees a couple of good looking guys holding hands. It’s one thing to fantasize about Angelina when you’re alone, but oh, Sweet Jeebus, Cristianjoe just can’t get Jake Gyllenhaal’s pouty mouth out of his mind....that’s why he can legitimately play the victim card, CTPatriot.
Hollywood is tempting Christianjoe! Let’s all chip in and send him to Ted Haggard’s Christian Camp for Hypocritical Homos. In just three short weeks Christianjoe will walk like a man, talk like a man, and think...well, he’ll act like a man, anyway. And he’ll be able to watch all those old Tarzan movies with that oiled up Johnny Wiessmuller and his big...chest and he’ll be proud to be a man again.
Ted Haggard did it! You can do it too, Christianjoe! Don’t be ashamed! Jeebus loves you, you big hunk, you.
And be sure and tell us all how it went Christianjoe! We’re all just dying to hear how three weeks of listening to adulterers, pederasts, thieves and liars could cure anyone of anything, let alone change them from how THEY WERE BORN, you self-loathing little closet queen.
Report thisBy madcap, March 14, 2007 at 7:06 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I don’t have much love for Christian bigotry. However, in particular about the students bussing around to colleges, I can’t say I have a whole lot of sympathy.
They’re going around (I’m guessing to hold protests) to colleges known to have hostile policies toward homosexuals, and yet the author is shocked (shocked!) to discover that some folks get so worked up over it that they (*gasp*) graffiti hateful (and yet, somehow hilariously misspelled) words on their busses. They decry being arrested for trespassing on West Point. It’s West Point… what did you think would happen? They’re lucky arrests were all that happened to them.
Contrast this Bloody Sunday during the Selma to Montgomery marches. I’m sure it felt bad to come out of a hotel and find graffitti (or even harassing motorists), but I bet it didn’t feel as bad as billy clubs and tear gas.
The difference with the Civil Rights marches, and maybe something these kids can learn from, is that they typically would be marching (or boycotting, or sitting-in, etc.) in response to particular incidents of discrimination, and these were often chosen for their mass sympathetic appeal. The Selma marches were in protest for voter registration violations, for instance.
Just having a policy at a private school isn’t enough for the intended audience-- potentially sympathetic moderates-- to take note. In fact, they’re more likely to consider the protesters to have brought it on themselves.
Report thisBy Broiler, March 14, 2007 at 5:22 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Re: Comment #58587 by halhiker
Good point on the provocative bus tour.
If these are private institutions, why are you there?
IF the institution is in any way supported
Report thisby tax dollars the bus tour and further
actions are appropriate to highlight any
unconstitutional agenda promoted and enforced
by the institution. One would hope that this
would not be needed at such universities but
we know better.
By christianjoe, March 14, 2007 at 2:58 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Deeb, you got a point. But my point was, under the New Covenant, we won’t be killed if we screw up and miss a rule. It’s funny how many of you who openly claim to want nothing to do with Christianity or God, but also portray yourself to know what the Bible is saying. Impossible.
Canadianguy, True Christianity is not fascism, but you said some good things.
HeatherInfestation, exactly! Well said!
Frank Avalon, well stated!
MadAsHell is just as ignorant about what Jesus did on the cross as many others on here seem to be. Ever read “Jumpers” by Tom Stoppard? I thought of that play when you said right and wrong are a natural result of being alive and human. Archie would say the same thing in the play. Just a friendly fyi.
CTPartriot, I refuse to address all of your blubbering falsities when your post is riddled with false assumptions about who I am. And never did I say that homosexuality is a choice. I don’t believe it is. But that doesn’t mean gays are born that way.
And another thing CTPatriot...you need to lighten up. Do you really think I would stoop to the level of many on here and begin to call names and broadly classify people as Liberal Fascists? Ha. You amuse me. It was a joke. And a pretty funny one from this side of the monitor. But then again, if you read what BCBud wrote, my statement may not be too far from the truth.
And why are we comparing sexual orientation to skin color? I never quite understood that. I know some would argue “well, they were both being discriminated against...so...there.” Okay, that’s fair. But race doesn’t give us any precedent. Unless you’re Michael Jackson, skin color doesn’t change. Orientation is changeable. There are men going through the process of change everyday. Exodus International is one of the few groups leading the charge of change.
Report thisBy Blueboy1938, March 14, 2007 at 11:18 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Whether or not a “gay gene” is found, the fact that each generation individuals identify as same sex oriented, despite all the societal, religious, governmental, economic, and legal forces that militate against it, is enough to justify ensuring that the Constitutional Guarantee of “equal protection under the law” applies to them. The “christian right,” which is neither, wants to end homosexuality, and is abetted in a multitude of ways by those and other factors. However, their women continue to give birth to baby faggots and lesies despite everything their patriarchal husbands and preachers say or do. That’s why it will be a great irony, after Roe v. Wade is overturned by the current conservative Supreme Court majority, when the “gay gene” is discovered and all those red neck women cross over the borders to neighboring “blue states” for the abortions of their “gay fetuses” their “red states” will have outlawed in the wake of that decision.
Report thisBy billy, March 14, 2007 at 11:09 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Christianjoe never answered the question.
HOW DOES GAY MARRIAGE VICTIMIZE YOU?
Report thisBy RAE, March 14, 2007 at 10:42 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
In #58265, Matthew Doyle wrote “Be careful; the term ‘sexual preferences’ feeds right into their prejudice. We are talking about sexual orientation here.
That fact that one might prefer blondes has nothing to do with one’s orientation.”
Agreed. Your analogy is worth amplification… a person’s “preference” for blonds is no more under his/her control or direction than is another person’s preference for redheads or brunettes!
“Preference” doesn’t mean a conscious CHOOSING. If you prefer RED to BLUE, or WARM to COLD, or DAYTIME to NIGHTTIME, SO WHAT? That’s just the way it is.
A sexual orientation is an INBORN preference… it’s whatever “turns you on.” In drink, some people prefer scotch, some rum, some beer. If you don’t like scotch there’s no way you should be forced to drink it. By the same token, there’s no way you should assume you have the right to prevent others from doing so. You’d sure be offended if someone assumed the right to prevent you from enjoying YOUR preference. The fact that far more people enjoy beer than scotch doesn’t mean anything more than that (more enjoy beer… PERIOD.)
Just because some anal-retentive, ignorant, religious blowhards spout slurs against any sexual preferences they don’t happen to like, doesn’t mean either they or YOU have the right to take any action on these biases.
Oh, yeah, I forgot… it’s more important to most people to be seen as PART OF THE CROWD than to be fair to those who aren’t. It gives the INFERIOR folks the illusion of SUPERIORITY… and that’s important to small, fearful minds.
Report thisBy dpk, March 14, 2007 at 9:58 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Point of information: liberal fascist is a contradiction.
Do y’all even know what fascism is?
Report thisBy halhiker, March 14, 2007 at 9:48 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I have read a large number of Chris Hedges writings and have generally enjoyed them. I agree with a number of his assessments regarding the Christian Right but this article seems to be just a bit over the top.
First, why do we need a bus tour to provoke animosity at colleges around the country? The people who attend these colleges have the right to believe what they want and the right to free association. If you do not believe what these institutions teach, don’t go there! Start your own university, call it Diversity U if you like.
Secondly, the militant on both sides are those who are giving each “movement” a bad name. I am a married Christian man who has several gay friends (OK, we don’t hang out together but we work together; I have young kids so I don’t hang out much with anyone these days). We respect each other. We talk about issues that effect us. We help each other as friends. Every year I oversee a program that donates to the local AIDS foundation. Both straight and gay people give. We understand that fighting AIDS is not about who you sleep with but about helping people in need. But we know where the other stands. I have said to them that I don’t care if gays get married, just don’t try to do it in my church. And they’ve said they wouldn’t want to.
To foment anger and reprisal by going out on a bus tour is certain to bring yet another gay bashing backlash but I’m sure that is what the trips organizers were planning on. It makes for good press.
The Christian Right is certainly dangerous but more for it’s heresies regarding wealth and power than it’s anti-gay rhetoric. My biggest problem with the anti-gay paranoia is that it is distracting from the mission of loving one’s neighbor.
It is also the most annoying and bigoted in the gay movement who have the loudest voices. Rosie O’Donnell is not your best spokesperson. She’d be a fat loud idiot if she were straight.
And Chris, how about an article on something Christians have done to benefit society for once? Make it about someone besides Bono.
Report thisBy TheVideoQueen, March 14, 2007 at 9:48 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
If you resonate with this article then you should read the book, The Chalice and The Blade. One friend described the book this way, “It explains where the human race went wrong.”
In essence cultural hierarchy is based on this self-made rational “because my God says” and has been perpetuated by every ruling group for at least 5,000 years. Before that humans lived, explored and traded in far more peace than war.
Nerissa
Report thisBy deeb, March 14, 2007 at 8:09 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
christianjoe, you say the rules of the old covenant are done away with, but by whom? In the 5th chapter of Matthew (verses 17-18) Jesus himself said that he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He said that “until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law until all things have taken place.” All things, that means the end of time. But I guess you have to read your bible to know that.
The christians who harass these noble activists are equivalent to the christians- such as the leadership of the southern baptist convention- who denounced and resisted Dr. King. They are hate mongers.
Report thisBy Canadianguy, March 14, 2007 at 7:39 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Why is it that we have to give so much importance to the gay gene? As if finding or confirming the existence of a gay gene will “legitimize” being gay! The women’s liberation movement, the racial civil rights movement, and the gay liberation movement, are fundamentally about prejudice and intolerance, and how these can permeate every level of society in suppressing minorities; whichever one happens to be the flavour of the times. Muslims everywhere in the Western world are getting their own first-hand experience of intolerance. I don’t really care if you find a gene that will prove that I am gay. I am gay, I have come out as a gay man, I know I am gay, and that’s that. If anyone has a problem with that, it’s their problem and not mine. It is called tolerance of others’ rights to be what they want, when they want. Except when they wanna lock me up and throw away the key. Religion over the centuries has proven itself a most capable judge, jury and executioner in promoting its fascist values, whenever a particular sect or following becomes fascist, which always seems to be inevitable. Oh, yes: Cheney doesn’t give a damn about Mary’s sexual orientation because in his arrogant world, money erases all those “inequalities”, substituting hypocrisy for values. If you are gay and rich, you can afford the lawyers and the contracts and fend off the riff-raff, living in your gated community, where all the other rich and ladeeda folk are more than willing to have you over for drinks, if not dinner. After all, business is business. Just ask around Hollywood. Palm Springs probably has one of the highest concentrations of (older)rich gay folk anywhere, and many, many of whom are in long-lasting relationships. That doesn’t stop Bush senior and other right wing Republicans from living and playing there, now, does it? Never has, really! Follow the money! The people who are making it, and the people who have less and less of it. The latter are those who will be most vulnerable to any pogroms enacted anywhere, as usual. And the poor folks who ain’t got no money and not much education at all, well, many of them are the foot soldiers who will be carrying out the orders. Forgive them because they know not what they do? Oh yes, that was quite the lynching, wasn’t it? Crucifixion, lynching, who cares as long as you can blame the mob!
Report thisBy Kitty Tanaka, March 14, 2007 at 7:09 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hemi:
That wasn’t Thor you saw, it was a cyborg clone created by Reed Richards and Hank Pym as part of the Initiative program designed to enforce the Superhuman Registration Act.
Of course, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t fear it, after all it recently malfunctioned and killed Goliath in combat, and though Hercules ended up smashing it’s head in with it’s own hammer they’re expected to make another one very soon.
In addition, the true Thor will be returning from the dead (again) just as soon as they relaunch his series. Thus, the true words of Thor are:
“Thou shalt have no false Thors before me, and when the clone Thor appears before thee, thou must shun him, crying out ‘Get thee behind me, Clor!’
Thou must buy my new comic book, and read my words and Marvel at my mighty deeds! Thou must spread the word of Thor, and bring thy friends to the altar of thy local comic shop so that they too might be converted to the true faith.
Ignore me in this, and verily I shall strike thee down like Loki or that idiot kryptonian! Bow before my mighty hammer of uru, or feel the crushing thunder of Mjolnir!
By Odin, By Lee and Kirby, so swears Thor!”
Report thisBy Richard Shimpfky, March 14, 2007 at 6:31 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Chris uses the phrase “cult of masculinity” to good effect. There is everwhere in our culture a drive for comformity that makes ambiguity intollerable for very many people and the “cult” and its drive toward a world where mem are men (and women glad) deprives the bulk of us - not just homosexuals - of legitimate being.
Thank you Chris for your insight!
Report thisBy HeatherInfestation, March 14, 2007 at 6:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
christian joe...i know i’ll take some heat for this, but you do make some good points.
personally, being neither a democrat or republican, religious or atheist, my views will not make a bit of difference to any of you out there, but i’m going to put my two bits in just as food for thought.
here’s my biggest question about most issues, including the many “alternative” lifestyles...why do we have to legislate people’s lives?
if you feel a certain way, fine. you don’t have to bother anyone else about it and certainly have no right to belittle others based on their opinions.
is it not possible to simply agree to disagree and let’s all go on about our lives?
and, when we reduce ourselves to petty insults and attacks, are we not avoiding the discussion altogether?
just remember that while you are labeling people for their lifestyles, your own lifestyle is alternative to many people (whatever that lifestyle is). we all come different and it takes all kinds to make this global tapestry.
when you’re making rude comments, i always assume that’s because you can’t make your point at all.
i understand frustration with the system. i don’t think there is a person out there that isn’t frustrated with the system, although for various reasons.
the problem comes when we have all the infighting. are we all so brainwashed that we can’t see the whole “divide and conquer” thing working for the government?
or does it seem too simple an explanation for what’s been going on here?
just wondering. i hope you all have a great day and, please, think about how you feel when someone picks on you or makes you feel small before you start casting about hurtful remarks.
even though i doubt that made a dent, i feel better having said it. peace and happiness to you.
Report thisBy Broiler, March 14, 2007 at 4:28 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Regarding #58302 by Hemi.
I believe Hemi has it summed up:
“THERE IS NO GOD!!!”
Get that thought through to the brainwashed
and everything becomes transparent.
Blood for oil.
Blood for industry.
Blood for capitalism.
Blood for power.
Poor men (women too) shed blood for all
the above so that rich men keep the power.
The only thing greater than Jerry Falwell’s
hunger for food is his hunger for power.
His only posession larger than his rotund
carcass is his blessed bank account.
It’s “God’s way or the highway to hell”.
God’s place is a little too chilly for me.
I’m with Jimmy Buffett; “I’ve gotta go where it’s warm”!
(What kind of a world have we made where the
drunken, doped up, trailer park, song writers
make more sense than the clergy and statesmen?)
Reverend Haggard: “The joke’s on him, on not gay!”
Have a nice god fearin’, homo hatin’ day!
Report this(And I mean that in a nice way.)
By BC Bud, March 14, 2007 at 3:50 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Just give me control of the government for one month and I would require all Christians/Jews/Muslims to have a large Crucifix/Star of David/Crescent tatooed on their foreheads so at least the rest of the population could see them coming. I would prosecute anyone who attacks gays or anyone else on the basis of religion. And if they quote God in their defense then I would require God to testify on their behalf or else they would be found guilty, period. All Christians would be taxed 1/3 of their income which would be given to the poor (I believe this is what Jesus preached) and if they are Republicans then make it 2/3. Evangelicals would lose all their assests (if they believe The Rapture is just around the corner then what need do they have for money and property?). All churches would be converted into shelters for the homeless. Serious consideration would also be given to castrating all Catholic priests to prevent further cases of sexual abuse and official recognition of the Vatican would be revoked.
Report thisBy CTPatriot, March 13, 2007 at 11:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
christianjoe: Like so many cultist wingnuts, you do a good job of trying to sound reasonable. But your membership in the church of the sheeple is laid bare by your cries of liberal fascism and your implication that the gay minority are attempting to force their will upon the majority.
What you’re really doing here is playing the victim card. If gay people are given equal rights to you, such as the ability to marry, then they are forcing their will upon the majority. That’s really what it’s about, isn’t it, joe?
And it’s kind of funny how that seems to conflict with your belief that the rights of the minority deserve to be protected, doesn’t it? After all, if you truly understood that minority’s deserved rights, and that our constitution was written so as to assure that the rights of the minority were equal to that of the majority. Yet, despite that, the majority, usually dominated by white, christian males, has throughout our history, managed to find some minority whose rights they justify trampling.
Women, slaves, blacks, japanese, latinos, immigrants, gays - all have had to fight for years to establish equal rights in this country. And the one great thing about America is that we learned and grew over time to become a more inclusive and accepting society. At least, that is, until G W Bush and the power he has granted to the radical christian right.
You fear liberal fascism with this crowd in power?! Are you insane?! Have you by any chance looked at what the right wing Bush administration has accomplished in just 6 years? Warrantless wiretapping, every manner of intrusion into our private lives and private records (secret searches, national security letters), elimination of habeas corpus, elimination of posse comitatus, use and justification of torture, secret prisons, indefinite detentions without charge or trial, secret evidence, placing of political loyalists in every position of power. And that’s just a start.
You want to talk about a fascist’s wet dream, it’s happening right before your very own eyes. But you don’t care because the people doing it share your ideology. You don’t even consider the fact that the next president given these tools of democratic destruction might be your worst nightmare - Hillary!
Now, why is it so important to you that gayness be the result of choice? Is it because then you would be able to impose your will on those people and “cure” them so that you wouldn’t have to have a gay man, his partner and their child living next door to you? Because, correct me if I am wrong, but in your world, joe, that would be seen as the minority imposing their will upon you, wouldn’t it?!
Report thisBy Mad As Hell, March 13, 2007 at 8:06 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
“The bible says many things that should not be practiced today. But for him/her to make that statement must be ignorant on the differences b/t the Old and New Covenants. Many of those rules have been done away with. But you would know that if you read the entire Bible, right?”
I just LOVE this! So, when God gave Moses The Law and said “These are my Commandments” one of the following must be true:
1) God goofed in His Laws and had to fix them.
2) God was lying because he didn’t really mean it and all the plagues of Egypt were a red herring.
3) God forgot to tell us that these were only interim laws until the Messiah came.
1) implies God’s not omniscient.
2) implies God is not honorable.
3) implies God is fallible.
How about this instead: Jesus, being a CIRCUMCISED Jew, followed God’s Laws, and NEVER said it was OK not to. It’s only later Christians, seeking to gain converts whose faith isn’t strong enough to endure circumcision--God’s FIRST Law--the Covenant, that took the politically expedient road and rationalized away God’s Laws.
The Law was too tough so they invented a loophole. It’s interesting that some Christian sects have preached closing that loophole and going BACK to Torah--"The Law”.
Me, I’m Agnostic. I like arguing. I just believe that Right and Wrong are a natural result of being alive and being human, as vital as food, clothing and shelter. It doesn’t include worrying about what happily consenting adults do.
Report thisBy Lefty, March 13, 2007 at 7:30 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
And some people just don’t understand how I can be a leftist, liberal and strongly support the right of U.S. citizens to own guns. In fact, not only do I think U.S. citizens have the constitutional right to own firearms, I submit that Americans have a duty, an obligation, to have a loaded weapon, ready to use, in your home, at all times. JMHO! YMMV!
Report thisBy Bob Zimmerman, March 13, 2007 at 6:36 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
In Germany, they came first for the communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists but I didn’t speak up because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time nobody was left to speak up.”
Martin Niemoeller, Dachau, 1944
We are living in dangerous times in America. The next election will bring forth the battle to return this country to its honorable place in the world.
Report thisBy Frank Avalon, March 13, 2007 at 6:13 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Why is it always the gays or their supporters who are seeing the end of civilization as we know it, if we don’t do everything they want? In the old days, someone who wanted things that way was considered an extremist, a threat to society, a danger to be confronted.... the gay-at-all-cost movement has made itself the enemy, if you ask me. When you constantly rant and rave about your rights, fight to change laws that for eons were holding civilization intact - you make people worry. Chill out, hang out, and get a life that doesn’t require you having sex with everything that moves, and you won’t have to face the ire of Christian zealots. They won’t even care what you do, as long as you don’t seek to destroy the world in the process.
Report thisBy Paige, March 13, 2007 at 6:12 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
im a christian.
one of my best friends is gay.
we dont hate gay ppl
i personally have no problem w/ them @ all
i think that they should have rights.
put that in ur statistics.
Report thisBy Joe Schmoe, March 13, 2007 at 4:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Tolerance doesn’t force christians to accept the gay lifestyle, it forces christians (and others) to respect others’ right to differ from their chosen religious viewpoint.
As for the gays who’re touring repressive religious schools in the hopes of “changing” their anti-gay policies, take it from someone who’s been there...it ain’t gonna change. A private school CAN discriminate if it wants to. Public school is a different matter, of course.
Tolerance doesn’t tolerate intolerance...with one exception--intolerance of intolerance. Its difficult for a lot of people to grasp this concept, apparently. Bigotry isn’t an acceptable point of view; bigotry is intolerable. Refusing to tolerate bigotry isn’t intolerance.
Anti-gays want tolerance for their bigotry--whether it originates from their religious views, social traditions, etc.
As for christians against gays, they were also against interracial marriage not too long ago (some still are). As I recall, christians were extremely vocal in their belief that interracial marriage was an abomination in the eyes of God...until people realized how stupid and bigotted that concept really is.
Private organizations will always discriminate against someone. Its the nature of “private organizations”. However, they should not receive public support of any kind--which is why Federal support of “faith-based” organizations is unacceptable when those “faith-based” organizations discriminate.
Religous views in America are not a valid reason to deny equal rights under the law.
Report thisBy 127001, March 13, 2007 at 4:03 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I’m enjoying the comments more than the article again.
Regarding Comment #58302 by Hemi ...
That’s so ..... “cute” ...
I’m not disagreeing. People forget that G*d is a perception, and for some reason (fear?) humans assign a religion to spiritual beliefs.
As for whether there is a “higher being or purpose” ... Well, try being dead a couple of times.
Funny, but your comment made me realize the only “hierarchy” I’ve ever been aware of is the human one. When you’re dead, there ain’t one.
But there is a purpose to everything, and we are just specks of dust in that purpose.
I was thinking when I read that (and laughing) that you must at least believe in yourself, which is as close one can get to believing in “G*d” ... and you’re a lot closer than those who identify with an external religion while living out this existence.
Go for it!
Report thisBy christianjoe, March 13, 2007 at 2:33 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I see my comment spurred some feedback.
I’m finding it perplexing that there is so much mis-information on here based on fear and ignorance.
Stratman said that Christians believe that if you associate with gays, they’re afraid you may become gay. This is false if you imply that the majority of Christians believe this.
Democrat Soldier is right. The bible says many things that should not be practiced today. But for him/her to make that statement must be ignorant on the differences b/t the Old and New Covenants. Many of those rules have been done away with. But you would know that if you read the entire Bible, right?
I strongly believe that people should be able to live the way they want to. If you believe there’s a gay gene, and you’re gay, then fine. But I don’t believe that. So now what are you gonna do? Where are the liberal voices screaming “tolerance” for me? Why am I being discriminated against? Our country has a responsibility to protect the minority, but forcing the will of the minority onto the majority is unconstitutional.
Eclaire, you wondered why my faith should be accepted by you? Well, I don’t care if you accept it or not. But I believe homosexuality is a psychological issue. So faith can very much be out of the picture.
Jim, you said some good things. I think you’re right on. It’s sad that Christian men, and non-Christian men are so often insecure in their masculinity. Our culture needs to encourage masculinity. It must be promoted. Not for the sake of the man dominating or abusing others...but for his own health and well-being.
Again I ask, if there’s any glimmer of reasonable doubt that there isn’t a gay gene, as nunya pointed out, the gay gene hasn’t been proven entirely, why wouldn’t we seek truth? Why are we politicizing everything? Defeat the right? Defeat Bush? Is it because the left feels like Gore should’ve won the 2000 election? My guess is all of the above. Watch out for liberal fascism.
Report thisBy Skruff, March 13, 2007 at 2:25 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #58269 by Jim on 3/13 at 4:52 am says:
“One reason the Christian right makes such an outcry against the gays is because by their existence the gays send the social message that the church has failed in its mission to have a positive influence on society, thus sending the message to them that all their ‘good works’ agendas are redundant, and nobody likes to be told that what they’re doing is redundant. So this partly explains the anger owned by the so-called ‘Christian Right.’”
I suppose that could be one reason, but in studying xtian lore I find that there is a strong link between xtianity and capitalism. Missonaries first, then the bankers.
Now I’m not saying that these folks are “in it for the money” but look at the abortion issue.... They don’t just want to not practice it themselves… they want NO one not jews, Athiests, or Pantihists to have an abortion.... Examine the why?
Because we’re losing future shoppers… Ditto the gay issue. No children born of a same sex marrige. No Walmart shoppers, no GM stock holders… and no little procreaters to advance the profits the necessary 3% a year…
No, I don’t buy “the bible made me do it” theory… It was the wallet!
Report thisBy a voice from the wilderness, March 13, 2007 at 2:07 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
To Thea (comment #58223), who wrote:
“Who will it be this time? Most likely the Arabs, and Muslims in general. “
Don’t forget the women, the intellectuals (again), the homosexuals (again), the Jews (again), the secular humanists, the scientists. In short, anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their twisted, fearful, hate-filled world view.
They are everywhere, they vote, and they contribute time and money to their cause.
Report thisBy Dr. Knowitall, PhD, PhD, March 13, 2007 at 12:03 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
58258 Recluse, of course everything’s still about “the dick.” You live in a very dickcentric world. Boobs run a close second but only insofar as they affect the dick. Then there’s beer. Dick, boobs and beer, that’s what life is about. Honestly, men can’t help it. Sorry.
Report thisBy Derek, March 13, 2007 at 11:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
nunya d. beezwax, you don’t know what you are talking about. There is no gay gene like there is no eye color gene or hair color gene. Eye and hair color are determined by several genes. Scientists believe that sexuality is determined by multiple genes as well.
Report thisBy Bill Weems, March 13, 2007 at 11:34 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Dear Kate, I agree that institutionalized religion can be horrible but that is not always the case. My church is a moderate sized inner-city Episcopal Church. Approximately half of our active membership are gay and lesbian. They have had leadership roles for over a decade. You can find other Episcopal churches like this in most major cities. In the bigger cities multiple churches of this type exist. Look at the assault being made on the Episcopal Church. It is because we are inclusive, loving and have a place for you.
Report thisBy nunya d. beezwax, March 13, 2007 at 8:52 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
christianjoe wrote:
Report this“No one can prove there is a gay gene.”
Sorry, Joe, there IS a ‘gay gene’ that has been found, at least in men, and it resembles genes in women. While it hasn’t been fully proven, since straight men do NOT have this genetic difference, it stands to reason that there is, in fact, a genetic cause of homosexuality. What causes homosexuality in women has yet to be found, but I would expect that it will prove to be similar to what is seen in gay men.
As for your ‘not fitting in’ hypothesis, the facts don’t support the idea. I ‘didn’t fit in’ with the other boys when I was a kid (none of the other kids wanted to associate with me because I was a ‘fat boy’), but I didn’t become gay. In fact, my girlfriend finds me a very satisfying lover, and I find women very attractive. I also know I’m far from the only one who had problems belonging as a child who grew up straight.
By Kate, March 13, 2007 at 7:49 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Religion itself is the problem. It requires human beings to rely not on reality - but on mythology. That’s where it gets hinky, because anyone with charisma enough to attract a following can preach whatever he wants - and people will believe. Think Jim Jones, think about those poor sheeple who committed suicide to hitch a ride on Hale-Bopp.
These people are dangerous, and we need to treat them as such. Religion is not beneficent - it’s dangerous.
Report thisBy Hemi, March 13, 2007 at 7:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Ahem, it’s been mentioned in earlier posts.
THERE IS NO GOD!!!
No Yahweh, Zeus, Isis, Allah, or even Clapton.
Well maybe a Clapton but I digress.
Get the message out; there is no god, end of discussion.
All of you fence sitters come to grips with it.
When did you see him, her or it last?
“I saw the face of Thor on a Twinkie.
And then I witnessed his supreme Thoriness
in the birth of my children. He came to me in
a dream with his father Odin and together
they used his war hammer, Mjolnir, to hammer
me into believing they are the one true fairy tale.
We must make a shrine, it’s a miracle!”
Pretty silly right? Just replace Thor with
the invisible saint or deity of your choice
and you will realize how the rational world
looks at you. Jesus? He’s alive. Yep, he’s
waiting outside of Home Depot right now
and he can replace your roof for about half
what a licensed contractor would charge.
I believe in Jesus!
Now that’s just wrong. Jesus forgive me!
Leave the dark side and come into the enlightenment.
All are welcome. We are not immoral, just without
an invisible hierarchy and ancient literature to make us
choose morality over immorality. I know, it’s scary to
leave the mythical comfort zone, what would the neighbors
think if you developed a sense of reason?
Sex is not immoral people are immoral. Sex is how you
got here unless your mother was a petrie dish.
No offense intended, I’m sure she was lovely
and sparkled fresh from the dishwasher.
That’s must be where you got your good looks!
Now, that settled, what do we do next?
Report thisBy rogar131, March 13, 2007 at 7:01 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
RE: Comment #58213 by SAM_O on 3/12 at 6:08 pm
I disagree with the fundamentalist Muslims that would take such scripture as literally, but with all due respect, they for the most part are not the ones depriving gays of their rights and trying to party like it’s 1099. Supposedly we are fighting two wars in the Middle East to defeat such people, why should we ignore the same kind of hate and ignorance on our own doorstep? Taliban is as Taliban does.
Report thisBy Democrat Soldier, March 13, 2007 at 4:54 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
When I hear the phrase “Don’t blame us for following what’s in the Bible!” I usually follow that up with:
“Why do you pick and choose which verses to follow? Why don’t you say we should kill children that curse at their parents? That’s written in the Bible! Why don’t you burn everything a woman touches when she’s menstruating? That’s written in the Bible! Why don’t you call for slavery to be legal? That’s written in the Bible!”
Those who claim to follow the Bible generally don’t know everything what’s written in the Bible. I pity these people.
Report thisBy Jim, March 13, 2007 at 4:52 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
One reason the Christian right makes such an outcry against the gays is because by their existence the gays send the social message that the church has failed in its mission to have a positive influence on society, thus sending the message to them that all their ‘good works’ agendas are redundant, and nobody likes to be told that what they’re doing is redundant. So this partly explains the anger owned by the so-called ‘Christian Right.’
Most of the males of the so-called ‘Christian Right’ are emasculated not only by the top down control setup of the system church, but also (and mostly) by their wives by allowing their women to wear the pants.The first thing an emasculated male does is to try to find ways to reinforce his own self perception of being masculine, usually by doing macho things, or by becoming powerful in some way, but also by trying to find ways to have control over others, all as a compensation for the emasculation he feels. And the greater the emasculation the greater the need to compensate for it, which explains the impetus behind a guy like Dobson who looks like the quintessential wimp and who speaks with an old woman’s voice inflection.
There is a Christian principle that says “What you judge you become"(per Romans 2:1), and what the so-called ‘Christian Right’ have succeeded in doing to themselves by judging the gays is to give rights to the spirit controlling the gays to rebound onto them to produce in them an equally aberrant male-female social style, only in the opposite extreme, and equally bizarre. And the inner and subconscious awareness of it sets up an overbalanced need to defend it, and a need to try to force it on everyone else. And this is not to mention the spirit driving the ploy who seeks to use the so-called ‘Christian Right’ as pawns for him to use to extend his range of control.
Report thisBy Matthew Doyle, March 13, 2007 at 4:23 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Be careful; the term ‘sexual preferences’ feeds right into their prejudice. We are talking about sexual orientation here.
That fact that one might prefer blondes has nothing to do with one’s orientation.
Report thisBy eClaire, March 13, 2007 at 4:17 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Christian Joe, I respect your opinion, but pray tell why should any gay man or lesbian woman or heterosexual who believes in treating all humans equally and who live in a civil society care what you think? I mean, why should a particular belief system that says change is possible, and therefore by inference that all gay men and women should try to change (and if not, perhaps be discriminated against because...what?...they have resisted change) be allowed to dominate?
What makes your religious belief trump mine in a civil society?
Why should we tolerate religion being wielded like a weapon against a minority that simply wants to contribute to society like most in America? (I have yet to see the research, but given my experience, I would bet that homosexuals are over-represented in the helping fields.)
Oh, I’ve heard the spurious arguments, the comparing of homosexuals, who want only to live their own lives, to all sorts of “evil doers.” Every group that has ever wanted to damn another either out of fear or to maintain control or gain power has turned the “other” into child seducers and murderers. Christians were branded with this tragic tactic early on. THIS is just more of THAT.
Worry about what you do in the privacy of your bedroom and leave me alone.
Report thisBy 127001, March 13, 2007 at 4:10 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
If you haven’t already seen it, you should go read Glenn Greenwald’s article ”Our right-wing arbiters of masculinity” where he shows what some of the name-callers of Edwards LOOK like.
The people who are doing all of this, including the friggin! Administration (I hate Gonzalez!) are wimps and bullies and can’t do a thing without another bully or two around them, propping them up.
They are cowards!
I thought it interesting that Americans need citizens ... students no less ... from other countries to openly protest in the streets against the Twig for them.
This society would never have become a democracy with the society we have today. It appears that a couple of generations (now adults) just never grew past needing a “paternalistic” role in their lives, and are now dependent on that type of government.
Ummm… We’re adults now. We can (and have to) stand up to the bullies ourselves.
Yeah. Sometimes its not fun. Sometimes you even end up with consequences. I know. But you sleep well at night.
Report thisBy eClaire, March 13, 2007 at 3:59 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
First off, Sam_O, it is NOT the Muslim right in America who is currently threatening our democracy--it is the Christian Right. There are Muslims that believe in live and let live and are friends to the gay community just like there are Christians who are not Pharisees draping themselves in the mantle of Christ. And whatever happened to the new covenant that Jesus ushered in? You know the one...where you interpret the old testament with the most important law noted by Jesus: love your neighbor as yourself.
Also, Hedges says, “This cult of masculinity keeps all ambiguity, especially sexual ambiguity, in check.” If this were true, we wouldn’t be reading in the paper with great frequency about some self-professing fundamentalist preacher or politician who was outed because his homosexual behavior.
For much of my life, there was a kind of comic that showed a dishelved person holding a sign that read, “The end of the world is near.” It was a joke that the vast majority of Americans could laugh about. Now we have the biggest “the end of the world is near” cult probably ever found in one place on the planet at any time in history, and they are doing their best to bring about the end of the world. What lunacy! Eveyone likes to feel important--you know, the big one will happen in their lifetime and THEY will be on the side of good...ta da! I HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH A TREMENDOUS FORCE FOR EVIL IN MY ENTIRE LIFE THAN THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT!!!
The Christian Right are modern day Pharisees, concerned not with the spirit of the law, but the letter of the law. All that Jesus said about this issue is entirely lost on them, which only goes to prove that they are Pharisees and not Christians (e.g., from the man with the paralyzed hand whom Jesus healed on a Sunday, while the Pharisees looked on hoping to catch him break God’s law, to the admonition that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath).
God save us from your followers!!!
Report thisBy Recluse, March 13, 2007 at 3:37 am