I’m with Carlos.  It’s not my job to tell others how to live or what to believe.  I figure that’s Gods job.  I just pray, literally, that all Christians aren’t judged by the loons on the far Christian right.

60829 by Matt Kremer on 3/27 at 4:57 pm says:

“Does anyone want Hedges to run our military?  We’d be beaten by the Swiss.”

Now the only question remains… Are the Swiss better soldiers than Iraq1is or Vietnamese?  Historically, the Swiss have repelled some far superior invaders… Which begs another question: Would Mr. Hedges be a better commander-in-chief than GWB?

Jesus is often depicted brandishing a sword? Huh?

Of Hedges’ many bizarre, unsubstantiated claims, that’s merely the most egregious.

Not content with garden-variety bigotry, Hedges allows his febrile imagination to transport him into a delusional, fantastical realm of paranoia and pure hate.

I pray he seeks help. Very soon.

Speaking as an elder jarhead, it ain’t healthy to declare yourself a homo in that outfit. Those guys carry real guns. If you wanna stay top side, keep it to yourself. Not PC, just common sense, and it’s not likely to change much, I hope.

Comment #60829 by Matt Kremer on 3/27 at 4:57 pm

Boy, what a rant. 

Although I’m not totally convinced by Hedge’s argument, I find the attacks from the other side to be historically…humm shall we say tepid?\

The same arguments used by Mr. Kremer
unit cohesion as an excuse to keep gays out of military services was used by various countries to block women, Blacks, christians and jews from serving.  While acient Rome had no equal rights laws, our country has a history of “inclusion” (although sometimes hard fought. If a woman, person of color, or a gay can be required to pay taxes, they must be allowed to fully participate in our “cultural process” if that process takes us to war, than everyone who owns a piece of these united states should be able to enlist. 

I personally believe even the age laws are discriminatory.. bet the Army, Navy, or Airforce could use the civilian experience of a 50-year-old book-keeper, cook, or teacher.

Ditto the “Icon” of marrige.  If the State performs marriages, then they should provide this service for everyone.  The alternative 9and one I support) is to get the State out of the marriage business, allow the government to tax everyone as single folk, and put marriage back (exclusively) in the church where it belongs.

As to the “no war on gays” statement, I suggest one asks Matt Sheppard of Wyoming or Charlie Howard of Maine about the “war.” oops can’t. they are dead at the hands of people who CLAIM to be christian.

Hedges is just Christian-phobic.  And that from a Jew.

The issue is not gayness, it is, in the case or military, unit cohesion.  Does anyone want Hedges to run our military?  We’d be beaten by the Swiss.

In the case of gay marriage, it is historical, cultural and logical.  I believe gays should not suffer tax-wise and etc. from not being allowed to “marry”, but marriage itself is too much of a cultural icon to turn into “anybody can do it”.  Historically, culturally and logically it has been a hetero union.  Gays are not going to change that in any timeframe shorter than 50 years, at least, even if then (unless you’re an idiot on the MA supreme court).

From the Right, there is no intent for a war on gays.  The Right sees a war on traditional values.  Whose to say they’re wrong?

From the Left, there is a phobia against religion.  Hedges is just one manisfestation of that irrationale belief.  Somebody should make sure he doesn’t run around with scissors.

This is precisely the SAME LEVEL of dim consciousness and behavior as the fundamentalist Muslims (“Isalmo-fascists”), it is plain for anyone with clear eyes and a rational modern mind to see.  Same deep fascist structure and belief system(s) with different surface features (“Christianity” and “Islam”).

The same polarized black-and-white, us vs. them, authoritarian, dogmatic, no independent thinking allowed,, cult of masculinity, denigration of the feminine and devaluation of women, etc. etc.

It’s called the mythic-membership level of consciousness and it’s medieval, pre-modern, and dangerous, whether in the Middle East or in America.

The problem here is that the majority of Christians do not hate homosexuals, it is just that the extremist, wacko, and uneducated Christians are the ones getting the press.

I am a Christian pastor and have had friends who are gay.  Do I hate them?  No, never did, never will.  If I hated people because they are gay, then I have no business being a pastor.  When I accepted Christ and gave my life to Him, I was overwhelmed with love and compassion for everyone…including homosexuals.

Does this mean I condone a homosexual lifestyle.  No.  It doesn’t.  Plain and simple.  But, the last time I checked, I am not God and so it is not up to me to condemn or judge what a person does.  I am called to pray for them, whatever the circumstance, and to love them.  I am to love the sinner (I am one myself) and to try and help them anyway I can.

This just hit home with me on a whole different level not too long ago.

I was watching the national news and they were reporting on the war in Iraq.  They showed Iraquis dancing about our guys being killed at a roadside bomb, burning our flag, etc.  In my anger, I remember thinking, “God, just wipe out that whole area over there and get rid of them.”

His reply was immediate.

“No, I died for them too.  Pray for them.”

So, judge me as you will.  And yes, the church is full of hypocrites/humans/sinners, join us some Sunday, you will you?  Heck, I have never met someone who hasn’t been guilty of hypocrisy at some point in their lives.  But through Christ, we can love and help each other through all the storms, all the hurts, and all the pains.

diggin Jesus,

Pastor Bald Dude

The correct answer is to configure and accept rights and laws based on HUMAN equality. If hetero marriages are acceptable so are homo marriages. Everyone has a right or no one has. There is no reason-based argument against this thinking. We can only promote what is known to all not what is believed by some.

“Sins of the flesh” is a petty subject and not worthy of the time and resources being devoted to control them. What sort of faith promotes this hounding of non-believers over more pressing matters? It’s time to clear the temple of hypocrites and crystal-meth dabblers. Clean your own house. Your salvation is based on being true to “your faith” not enslaving others in it.

ACTUALLY, this is more than a gay/straight issue. It is a fairness issue.  If I’m a single man who works for a company that offees health insurance for “family members” should I not be able to get that benefit, because society has defined “family” as offspring and sopuse?

Why not my non-working sister, my aged parent who worked for a company now in bankrupcy, or my brothers child not covered under his policy? 

I Reject the US IRS based notion of “family”  My family is the people I choose to include.

“This is what I believe. End of story.”

exactly, christianjoe. you have pointed out the problem more concisely than anyone else…whether or not you meant to.

to christian joe:

intolerance of intolerance is not bigotry.  Denying someone’s rights because of a belief system specific to one group of people (christians who don’t like homosexuals) is.  Figure it out christian joe.

To say that homosexuality is not a human rights issue is just stupid, plain and simple.  Last time I checked, all my gay friends and business associates are human, and the issue is over their rights! 

What does it matter anyway wether a person is born gay or chooses to be gay?  I don’t understand how one couple’s relationship, gay or straight, can be of any affect to anyone else?  If two people are in a loving, productive relationship, wether MM, MF or FF, how is that in any way a bad thing?  How does it affect your daily life christian joe?  If you can tell me how, in any way, how a gay couple’s existence affects you and your freedoms in any negative way, I will shut my mouth on the subject.

To say right now that individuals are, or are not born gay is an opinion, and arguing your opinion is pointless christian joe, it just further paints you as the bigot you are. 

You say you THINK you’ve found the truth, joe christian? You don’t sound too convinced, and I’ll tell you why, YOU HAVEN’T.  Your far from it, and you’re not getting any warmer.

Homosexuality is not a human rights issue. Individuals are not born gay. This is what I believe. End of story. But this isn’t a black and white issue. There is not a standard way to determine whether someone will be gay or not…jock of femm…or even to predict it.

I am on the search for truth. And I think I’ve found it…but there’s always the possibilty I’m wrong. Many of you feel like truth is telling you that individuals are born gay. Neither one of us can empirically prove our beliefs. So now what? I’m fine with your beliefs. I’m not forcing mine onto you. And I won’t deny my beliefs, either. But that doesn’t make me a bigot. Intolerance for my beliefs…I’m pretty sure that’s bigotry…especially since neither side has proven anything.

Paige (from 58449),

notice #58449 by bob zimmeran and #58223 by thea quoting Martin Niemoller’s poem.

speak out.  the silent majority is just as bad as the fundamental minority because they let it happen. and that applies to many groups beside chrisians as well.

To christian joe:

Your comment #58175 is a real laugh!  When you say, “Child development psychology tells us..”, do you mean thats a title of a book?  Is it a person?  Is there one definitive authority on the subject?  Where can I find this info and read it for myself, because what you say is totally inconsistent. 

“..if a gay man does not fit in with “the boys” throughout childhood, then he will be attracted to males later in life because he always related to females.”

Are you being serious? Again, please tell me where you learned this, does your church offer psychology classes?  What about the kids who were ‘jocks’ growing up, and still came out as being gay?  A good friend of mine’s older brother was a total jock in every sense of the word in high school, all the girls wanted to date him, and he dated a lot of ‘em! While in med. school though, he came out.  Good family, lots of brothers and sisters,  no abuse, stereo-typical jock, so how do your theories explain that?  I have a cousin, who while in elementary school, enjoyed playing with barbies, ALL the time.  He’s in his early twenties now, and has a healthy dating life, DATING GIRLS.

Your theory is so ambiguous, how can you justify laying down judgement on a group of people that have NO IMPACT ON YOUR LIFE?  Why do you care to? 

What this issue is over is human rights, NOT psychology, and NOT religion.  Human rights transcends both those things.

Oh, and christian joe, I see something in your eye, looks like a beam, and its got BIGOTRY carved on the side of it.

Re#58616 by billy:

Oh,come on, Billy, it’s obvious!  Christianjoe is victimized because he is jealous.  He gets a chub every time he sees a couple of good looking guys holding hands.  It’s one thing to fantasize about Angelina when you’re alone, but oh, Sweet Jeebus, Cristianjoe just can’t get Jake Gyllenhaal’s pouty mouth out of his mind….that’s why he can legitimately play the victim card, CTPatriot.

Hollywood is tempting Christianjoe!  Let’s all chip in and send him to Ted Haggard’s Christian Camp for Hypocritical Homos.  In just three short weeks Christianjoe will walk like a man, talk like a man, and think…well, he’ll act like a man, anyway.  And he’ll be able to watch all those old Tarzan movies with that oiled up Johnny Wiessmuller and his big…chest and he’ll be proud to be a man again.

Ted Haggard did it!  You can do it too, Christianjoe!  Don’t be ashamed!  Jeebus loves you, you big hunk, you.

And be sure and tell us all how it went Christianjoe!  We’re all just dying to hear how three weeks of listening to adulterers, pederasts, thieves and liars could cure anyone of anything, let alone change them from how THEY WERE BORN, you self-loathing little closet queen.

I don’t have much love for Christian bigotry. However, in particular about the students bussing around to colleges, I can’t say I have a whole lot of sympathy.

They’re going around (I’m guessing to hold protests) to colleges known to have hostile policies toward homosexuals, and yet the author is shocked (shocked!) to discover that some folks get so worked up over it that they (*gasp*) graffiti hateful (and yet, somehow hilariously misspelled) words on their busses. They decry being arrested for trespassing on West Point. It’s West Point… what did you think would happen? They’re lucky arrests were all that happened to them.

Contrast this Bloody Sunday during the Selma to Montgomery marches. I’m sure it felt bad to come out of a hotel and find graffitti (or even harassing motorists), but I bet it didn’t feel as bad as billy clubs and tear gas.

The difference with the Civil Rights marches, and maybe something these kids can learn from, is that they typically would be marching (or boycotting, or sitting-in, etc.) in response to particular incidents of discrimination, and these were often chosen for their mass sympathetic appeal. The Selma marches were in protest for voter registration violations, for instance.

Just having a policy at a private school isn’t enough for the intended audience—potentially sympathetic moderates—to take note. In fact, they’re more likely to consider the protesters to have brought it on themselves.

Re: Comment #58587 by halhiker

Good point on the provocative bus tour.
If these are private institutions, why are you there?

IF the institution is in any way supported
by tax dollars the bus tour and further
actions are appropriate to highlight any
unconstitutional agenda promoted and enforced
by the institution. One would hope that this
would not be needed at such universities but
we know better.

Deeb, you got a point. But my point was, under the New Covenant, we won’t be killed if we screw up and miss a rule. It’s funny how many of you who openly claim to want nothing to do with Christianity or God, but also portray yourself to know what the Bible is saying. Impossible.

Canadianguy, True Christianity is not fascism, but you said some good things.

HeatherInfestation, exactly! Well said!

Frank Avalon, well stated!

MadAsHell is just as ignorant about what Jesus did on the cross as many others on here seem to be. Ever read “Jumpers” by Tom Stoppard? I thought of that play when you said right and wrong are a natural result of being alive and human. Archie would say the same thing in the play. Just a friendly fyi.

CTPartriot, I refuse to address all of your blubbering falsities when your post is riddled with false assumptions about who I am. And never did I say that homosexuality is a choice. I don’t believe it is. But that doesn’t mean gays are born that way.

And another thing CTPatriot…you need to lighten up. Do you really think I would stoop to the level of many on here and begin to call names and broadly classify people as Liberal Fascists? Ha. You amuse me. It was a joke. And a pretty funny one from this side of the monitor. But then again, if you read what BCBud wrote, my statement may not be too far from the truth.

And why are we comparing sexual orientation to skin color? I never quite understood that. I know some would argue “well, they were both being discriminated against…so…there.” Okay, that’s fair. But race doesn’t give us any precedent. Unless you’re Michael Jackson, skin color doesn’t change. Orientation is changeable. There are men going through the process of change everyday. Exodus International is one of the few groups leading the charge of change.

Whether or not a “gay gene” is found, the fact that each generation individuals identify as same sex oriented, despite all the societal, religious, governmental, economic, and legal forces that militate against it, is enough to justify ensuring that the Constitutional Guarantee of “equal protection under the law” applies to them.  The “christian right,” which is neither, wants to end homosexuality, and is abetted in a multitude of ways by those and other factors.  However, their women continue to give birth to baby faggots and lesies despite everything their patriarchal husbands and preachers say or do.  That’s why it will be a great irony, after Roe v. Wade is overturned by the current conservative Supreme Court majority, when the “gay gene” is discovered and all those red neck women cross over the borders to neighboring “blue states” for the abortions of their “gay fetuses” their “red states” will have outlawed in the wake of that decision.

Christianjoe never answered the question.

HOW DOES GAY MARRIAGE VICTIMIZE YOU?

In #58265, Matthew Doyle wrote “Be careful; the term ‘sexual preferences’ feeds right into their prejudice. We are talking about sexual orientation here.

That fact that one might prefer blondes has nothing to do with one’s orientation.”

Agreed. Your analogy is worth amplification… a person’s “preference” for blonds is no more under his/her control or direction than is another person’s preference for redheads or brunettes!

“Preference” doesn’t mean a conscious CHOOSING. If you prefer RED to BLUE, or WARM to COLD, or DAYTIME to NIGHTTIME, SO WHAT? That’s just the way it is.

A sexual orientation is an INBORN preference… it’s whatever “turns you on.” In drink, some people prefer scotch, some rum, some beer. If you don’t like scotch there’s no way you should be forced to drink it. By the same token, there’s no way you should assume you have the right to prevent others from doing so. You’d sure be offended if someone assumed the right to prevent you from enjoying YOUR preference. The fact that far more people enjoy beer than scotch doesn’t mean anything more than that (more enjoy beer… PERIOD.)

Just because some anal-retentive, ignorant, religious blowhards spout slurs against any sexual preferences they don’t happen to like, doesn’t mean either they or YOU have the right to take any action on these biases.

Oh, yeah, I forgot… it’s more important to most people to be seen as PART OF THE CROWD than to be fair to those who aren’t. It gives the INFERIOR folks the illusion of SUPERIORITY… and that’s important to small, fearful minds.

Point of information: liberal fascist is a contradiction.

Do y’all even know what fascism is?

I have read a large number of Chris Hedges writings and have generally enjoyed them.  I agree with a number of his assessments regarding the Christian Right but this article seems to be just a bit over the top.

First, why do we need a bus tour to provoke animosity at colleges around the country?  The people who attend these colleges have the right to believe what they want and the right to free association.  If you do not believe what these institutions teach, don’t go there!  Start your own university, call it Diversity U if you like. 

Secondly, the militant on both sides are those who are giving each “movement” a bad name.  I am a married Christian man who has several gay friends (OK, we don’t hang out together but we work together; I have young kids so I don’t hang out much with anyone these days).  We respect each other.  We talk about issues that effect us.  We help each other as friends.  Every year I oversee a program that donates to the local AIDS foundation.  Both straight and gay people give.  We understand that fighting AIDS is not about who you sleep with but about helping people in need.  But we know where the other stands.  I have said to them that I don’t care if gays get married, just don’t try to do it in my church.  And they’ve said they wouldn’t want to.

To foment anger and reprisal by going out on a bus tour is certain to bring yet another gay bashing backlash but I’m sure that is what the trips organizers were planning on.  It makes for good press.

The Christian Right is certainly dangerous but more for it’s heresies regarding wealth and power than it’s anti-gay rhetoric.  My biggest problem with the anti-gay paranoia is that it is distracting from the mission of loving one’s neighbor.

It is also the most annoying and bigoted in the gay movement who have the loudest voices.  Rosie O’Donnell is not your best spokesperson.  She’d be a fat loud idiot if she were straight.

And Chris, how about an article on something Christians have done to benefit society for once?  Make it about someone besides Bono.

If you resonate with this article then you should read the book, The Chalice and The Blade. One friend described the book this way, “It explains where the human race went wrong.”

In essence cultural hierarchy is based on this self-made rational “because my God says” and has been perpetuated by every ruling group for at least 5,000 years. Before that humans lived, explored and traded in far more peace than war.

Nerissa

christianjoe, you say the rules of the old covenant are done away with, but by whom? In the 5th chapter of Matthew (verses 17-18) Jesus himself said that he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He said that “until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law until all things have taken place.” All things, that means the end of time. But I guess you have to read your bible to know that.

The christians who harass these noble activists are equivalent to the christians- such as the leadership of the southern baptist convention- who denounced and resisted Dr. King. They are hate mongers.

Why is it that we have to give so much importance to the gay gene? As if finding or confirming the existence of a gay gene will “legitimize” being gay! The women’s liberation movement, the racial civil rights movement, and the gay liberation movement, are fundamentally about prejudice and intolerance, and how these can permeate every level of society in suppressing minorities; whichever one happens to be the flavour of the times. Muslims everywhere in the Western world are getting their own first-hand experience of intolerance. I don’t really care if you find a gene that will prove that I am gay. I am gay, I have come out as a gay man, I know I am gay, and that’s that. If anyone has a problem with that, it’s their problem and not mine. It is called tolerance of others’ rights to be what they want, when they want. Except when they wanna lock me up and throw away the key. Religion over the centuries has proven itself a most capable judge, jury and executioner in promoting its fascist values, whenever a particular sect or following becomes fascist, which always seems to be inevitable. Oh, yes: Cheney doesn’t give a damn about Mary’s sexual orientation because in his arrogant world, money erases all those “inequalities”, substituting hypocrisy for values. If you are gay and rich, you can afford the lawyers and the contracts and fend off the riff-raff, living in your gated community, where all the other rich and ladeeda folk are more than willing to have you over for drinks, if not dinner. After all, business is business. Just ask around Hollywood. Palm Springs probably has one of the highest concentrations of (older)rich gay folk anywhere, and many, many of whom are in long-lasting relationships. That doesn’t stop Bush senior and other right wing Republicans from living and playing there, now, does it? Never has, really! Follow the money! The people who are making it, and the people who have less and less of it. The latter are those who will be most vulnerable to any pogroms enacted anywhere, as usual. And the poor folks who ain’t got no money and not much education at all, well, many of them are the foot soldiers who will be carrying out the orders. Forgive them because they know not what they do? Oh yes, that was quite the lynching, wasn’t it? Crucifixion, lynching, who cares as long as you can blame the mob!

Hemi:

That wasn’t Thor you saw, it was a cyborg clone created by Reed Richards and Hank Pym as part of the Initiative program designed to enforce the Superhuman Registration Act.

Of course, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t fear it, after all it recently malfunctioned and killed Goliath in combat, and though Hercules ended up smashing it’s head in with it’s own hammer they’re expected to make another one very soon.

In addition, the true Thor will be returning from the dead (again) just as soon as they relaunch his series. Thus, the true words of Thor are:

“Thou shalt have no false Thors before me, and when the clone Thor appears before thee, thou must shun him, crying out ‘Get thee behind me, Clor!’

Thou must buy my new comic book, and read my words and Marvel at my mighty deeds! Thou must spread the word of Thor, and bring thy friends to the altar of thy local comic shop so that they too might be converted to the true faith.

Ignore me in this, and verily I shall strike thee down like Loki or that idiot kryptonian! Bow before my mighty hammer of uru, or feel the crushing thunder of Mjolnir!

By Odin, By Lee and Kirby, so swears Thor!”

Chris uses the phrase “cult of masculinity” to good effect.  There is everwhere in our culture a drive for comformity that makes ambiguity intollerable for very many people and the “cult” and its drive toward a world where mem are men (and women glad) deprives the bulk of us - not just homosexuals - of legitimate being.

Thank you Chris for your insight!

christian joe…i know i’ll take some heat for this, but you do make some good points.

personally, being neither a democrat or republican, religious or atheist, my views will not make a bit of difference to any of you out there, but i’m going to put my two bits in just as food for thought.

here’s my biggest question about most issues, including the many “alternative” lifestyles…why do we have to legislate people’s lives?

if you feel a certain way, fine. you don’t have to bother anyone else about it and certainly have no right to belittle others based on their opinions.

is it not possible to simply agree to disagree and let’s all go on about our lives?
and, when we reduce ourselves to petty insults and attacks, are we not avoiding the discussion altogether?

just remember that while you are labeling people for their lifestyles, your own lifestyle is alternative to many people (whatever that lifestyle is). we all come different and it takes all kinds to make this global tapestry.

when you’re making rude comments, i always assume that’s because you can’t make your point at all.

i understand frustration with the system. i don’t think there is a person out there that isn’t frustrated with the system, although for various reasons.

the problem comes when we have all the infighting. are we all so brainwashed that we can’t see the whole “divide and conquer” thing working for the government?
or does it seem too simple an explanation for what’s been going on here?

just wondering. i hope you all have a great day and, please, think about how you feel when someone picks on you or makes you feel small before you start casting about hurtful remarks.

even though i doubt that made a dent, i feel better having said it. peace and happiness to you.

Regarding #58302 by Hemi.
I believe Hemi has it summed up:

“THERE IS NO GOD!!!”

Get that thought through to the brainwashed
and everything becomes transparent.
Blood for oil.
Blood for industry.
Blood for capitalism.
Blood for power.
Poor men (women too) shed blood for all
the above so that rich men keep the power.
The only thing greater than Jerry Falwell’s
hunger for food is his hunger for power.
His only posession larger than his rotund
carcass is his blessed bank account.
It’s “God’s way or the highway to hell”.

God’s place is a little too chilly for me.
I’m with Jimmy Buffett; “I’ve gotta go where it’s warm”!
(What kind of a world have we made where the
drunken, doped up, trailer park, song writers
make more sense than the clergy and statesmen?)

Reverend Haggard: “The joke’s on him, on not gay!”

Have a nice god fearin’, homo hatin’ day!
(And I mean that in a nice way.)

Just give me control of the government for one month and I would require all Christians/Jews/Muslims to have a large Crucifix/Star of David/Crescent tatooed on their foreheads so at least the rest of the population could see them coming. I would prosecute anyone who attacks gays or anyone else on the basis of religion. And if they quote God in their defense then I would require God to testify on their behalf or else they would be found guilty, period. All Christians would be taxed 1/3 of their income which would be given to the poor (I believe this is what Jesus preached) and if they are Republicans then make it 2/3. Evangelicals would lose all their assests (if they believe The Rapture is just around the corner then what need do they have for money and property?). All churches would be converted into shelters for the homeless. Serious consideration would also be given to castrating all Catholic priests to prevent further cases of sexual abuse and official recognition of the Vatican would be revoked.

christianjoe: Like so many cultist wingnuts, you do a good job of trying to sound reasonable. But your membership in the church of the sheeple is laid bare by your cries of liberal fascism and your implication that the gay minority are attempting to force their will upon the majority.

What you’re really doing here is playing the victim card. If gay people are given equal rights to you, such as the ability to marry, then they are forcing their will upon the majority. That’s really what it’s about, isn’t it, joe?

And it’s kind of funny how that seems to conflict with your belief that the rights of the minority deserve to be protected, doesn’t it? After all, if you truly understood that minority’s deserved rights, and that our constitution was written so as to assure that the rights of the minority were equal to that of the majority. Yet, despite that, the majority, usually dominated by white, christian males, has throughout our history, managed to find some minority whose rights they justify trampling.

Women, slaves, blacks, japanese, latinos, immigrants, gays - all have had to fight for years to establish equal rights in this country. And the one great thing about America is that we learned and grew over time to become a more inclusive and accepting society. At least, that is, until G W Bush and the power he has granted to the radical christian right.

You fear liberal fascism with this crowd in power?! Are you insane?! Have you by any chance looked at what the right wing Bush administration has accomplished in just 6 years? Warrantless wiretapping, every manner of intrusion into our private lives and private records (secret searches, national security letters), elimination of habeas corpus, elimination of posse comitatus, use and justification of torture, secret prisons, indefinite detentions without charge or trial, secret evidence, placing of political loyalists in every position of power. And that’s just a start.

You want to talk about a fascist’s wet dream, it’s happening right before your very own eyes. But you don’t care because the people doing it share your ideology. You don’t even consider the fact that the next president given these tools of democratic destruction might be your worst nightmare - Hillary!

Now, why is it so important to you that gayness be the result of choice? Is it because then you would be able to impose your will on those people and “cure” them so that you wouldn’t have to have a gay man, his partner and their child living next door to you? Because, correct me if I am wrong, but in your world, joe, that would be seen as the minority imposing their will upon you, wouldn’t it?!

“The bible says many things that should not be practiced today. But for him/her to make that statement must be ignorant on the differences b/t the Old and New Covenants. Many of those rules have been done away with. But you would know that if you read the entire Bible, right?”

I just LOVE this!  So, when God gave Moses The Law and said “These are my Commandments” one of the following must be true:

1) God goofed in His Laws and had to fix them.
2) God was lying because he didn’t really mean it and all the plagues of Egypt were a red herring.
3) God forgot to tell us that these were only interim laws until the Messiah came.

1) implies God’s not omniscient.
2) implies God is not honorable.
3) implies God is fallible.

How about this instead: Jesus, being a CIRCUMCISED Jew, followed God’s Laws, and NEVER said it was OK not to.  It’s only later Christians, seeking to gain converts whose faith isn’t strong enough to endure circumcision—God’s FIRST Law—the Covenant, that took the politically expedient road and rationalized away God’s Laws.

The Law was too tough so they invented a loophole.  It’s interesting that some Christian sects have preached closing that loophole and going BACK to Torah—“The Law”.

Me, I’m Agnostic. I like arguing. I just believe that Right and Wrong are a natural result of being alive and being human, as vital as food, clothing and shelter.  It doesn’t include worrying about what happily consenting adults do.

And some people just don’t understand how I can be a leftist, liberal and strongly support the right of U.S. citizens to own guns.  In fact, not only do I think U.S. citizens have the constitutional right to own firearms, I submit that Americans have a duty, an obligation, to have a loaded weapon, ready to use, in your home, at all times.  JMHO! YMMV!

In Germany, they came first for the communists, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists but I didn’t speak up because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time nobody was left to speak up.”
Martin Niemoeller, Dachau, 1944

We are living in dangerous times in America. The next election will bring forth the battle to return this country to its honorable place in the world.

Why is it always the gays or their supporters who are seeing the end of civilization as we know it, if we don’t do everything they want? In the old days, someone who wanted things that way was considered an extremist, a threat to society, a danger to be confronted…. the gay-at-all-cost movement has made itself the enemy, if you ask me. When you constantly rant and rave about your rights, fight to change laws that for eons were holding civilization intact - you make people worry. Chill out, hang out, and get a life that doesn’t require you having sex with everything that moves, and you won’t have to face the ire of Christian zealots. They won’t even care what you do, as long as you don’t seek to destroy the world in the process.

im a christian.

one of my best friends is gay.

we dont hate gay ppl

i personally have no problem w/ them @ all

i think that they should have rights.

put that in ur statistics.

Tolerance doesn’t force christians to accept the gay lifestyle, it forces christians (and others) to respect others’ right to differ from their chosen religious viewpoint.

As for the gays who’re touring repressive religious schools in the hopes of “changing” their anti-gay policies, take it from someone who’s been there…it ain’t gonna change.  A private school CAN discriminate if it wants to.  Public school is a different matter, of course.

Tolerance doesn’t tolerate intolerance…with one exception—intolerance of intolerance.  Its difficult for a lot of people to grasp this concept, apparently.  Bigotry isn’t an acceptable point of view; bigotry is intolerable.  Refusing to tolerate bigotry isn’t intolerance.

Anti-gays want tolerance for their bigotry—whether it originates from their religious views, social traditions, etc.

As for christians against gays, they were also against interracial marriage not too long ago (some still are).  As I recall, christians were extremely vocal in their belief that interracial marriage was an abomination in the eyes of God…until people realized how stupid and bigotted that concept really is.

Private organizations will always discriminate against someone.  Its the nature of “private organizations”.  However, they should not receive public support of any kind—which is why Federal support of “faith-based” organizations is unacceptable when those “faith-based” organizations discriminate.

Religous views in America are not a valid reason to deny equal rights under the law.

I’m enjoying the comments more than the article again.

Regarding Comment #58302 by Hemi ...

That’s so ..... “cute” ...

THERE IS NO GOD!!!
...
Get the message out; there is no god, end of discussion.
...
Now, that settled, what do we do next?

I’m not disagreeing. People forget that G*d is a perception, and for some reason (fear?) humans assign a religion to spiritual beliefs.

As for whether there is a “higher being or purpose” ... Well, try being dead a couple of times.

Funny, but your comment made me realize the only “hierarchy” I’ve ever been aware of is the human one. When you’re dead, there ain’t one.

But there is a purpose to everything, and we are just specks of dust in that purpose.

I was thinking when I read that (and laughing) that you must at least believe in yourself, which is as close one can get to believing in “G*d” ... and you’re a lot closer than those who identify with an external religion while living out this existence.

Go for it!

I see my comment spurred some feedback.

I’m finding it perplexing that there is so much mis-information on here based on fear and ignorance.

Stratman said that Christians believe that if you associate with gays, they’re afraid you may become gay. This is false if you imply that the majority of Christians believe this.

Democrat Soldier is right. The bible says many things that should not be practiced today. But for him/her to make that statement must be ignorant on the differences b/t the Old and New Covenants. Many of those rules have been done away with. But you would know that if you read the entire Bible, right?

I strongly believe that people should be able to live the way they want to. If you believe there’s a gay gene, and you’re gay, then fine. But I don’t believe that.  So now what are you gonna do? Where are the liberal voices screaming “tolerance” for me? Why am I being discriminated against? Our country has a responsibility to protect the minority, but forcing the will of the minority onto the majority is unconstitutional.

Eclaire, you wondered why my faith should be accepted by you? Well, I don’t care if you accept it or not. But I believe homosexuality is a psychological issue. So faith can very much be out of the picture.

Jim, you said some good things. I think you’re right on. It’s sad that Christian men, and non-Christian men are so often insecure in their masculinity. Our culture needs to encourage masculinity. It must be promoted. Not for the sake of the man dominating or abusing others…but for his own health and well-being.

Again I ask, if there’s any glimmer of reasonable doubt that there isn’t a gay gene, as nunya pointed out, the gay gene hasn’t been proven entirely, why wouldn’t we seek truth? Why are we politicizing everything? Defeat the right? Defeat Bush? Is it because the left feels like Gore should’ve won the 2000 election? My guess is all of the above. Watch out for liberal fascism.

Comment #58269 by Jim on 3/13 at 4:52 am says:

“One reason the Christian right makes such an outcry against the gays is because by their existence the gays send the social message that the church has failed in its mission to have a positive influence on society, thus sending the message to them that all their ‘good works’ agendas are redundant, and nobody likes to be told that what they’re doing is redundant. So this partly explains the anger owned by the so-called ‘Christian Right.’”

I suppose that could be one reason, but in studying xtian lore I find that there is a strong link between xtianity and capitalism.  Missonaries first, then the bankers.

Now I’m not saying that these folks are “in it for the money” but look at the abortion issue…. They don’t just want to not practice it themselves… they want NO one not jews, Athiests, or Pantihists to have an abortion…. Examine the why?

Because we’re losing future shoppers… Ditto the gay issue.  No children born of a same sex marrige.  No Walmart shoppers, no GM stock holders… and no little procreaters to advance the profits the necessary 3% a year…

No, I don’t buy “the bible made me do it” theory… It was the wallet!

To Thea (comment #58223), who wrote:
“Who will it be this time? Most likely the Arabs, and Muslims in general. “

Don’t forget the women, the intellectuals (again), the homosexuals (again), the Jews (again), the secular humanists, the scientists.  In short, anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their twisted, fearful, hate-filled world view.

They are everywhere, they vote, and they contribute time and money to their cause.

58258 Recluse, of course everything’s still about “the dick.”  You live in a very dickcentric world.  Boobs run a close second but only insofar as they affect the dick. Then there’s beer.  Dick, boobs and beer, that’s what life is about. Honestly, men can’t help it.  Sorry.

nunya d. beezwax, you don’t know what you are talking about.  There is no gay gene like there is no eye color gene or hair color gene.  Eye and hair color are determined by several genes.  Scientists believe that sexuality is determined by multiple genes as well.

Dear Kate, I agree that institutionalized religion can be horrible but that is not always the case.  My church is a moderate sized inner-city Episcopal Church.  Approximately half of our active membership are gay and lesbian.  They have had leadership roles for over a decade.  You can find other Episcopal churches like this in most major cities.  In the bigger cities multiple churches of this type exist.  Look at the assault being made on the Episcopal Church.  It is because we are inclusive, loving and have a place for you.

christianjoe wrote:
“No one can prove there is a gay gene.”
Sorry, Joe, there IS a ‘gay gene’ that has been found, at least in men, and it resembles genes in women.  While it hasn’t been fully proven, since straight men do NOT have this genetic difference, it stands to reason that there is, in fact, a genetic cause of homosexuality.  What causes homosexuality in women has yet to be found, but I would expect that it will prove to be similar to what is seen in gay men.
As for your ‘not fitting in’ hypothesis, the facts don’t support the idea.  I ‘didn’t fit in’ with the other boys when I was a kid (none of the other kids wanted to associate with me because I was a ‘fat boy’), but I didn’t become gay.  In fact, my girlfriend finds me a very satisfying lover, and I find women very attractive.  I also know I’m far from the only one who had problems belonging as a child who grew up straight.

Religion itself is the problem. It requires human beings to rely not on reality - but on mythology. That’s where it gets hinky, because anyone with charisma enough to attract a following can preach whatever he wants - and people will believe. Think Jim Jones, think about those poor sheeple who committed suicide to hitch a ride on Hale-Bopp.

These people are dangerous, and we need to treat them as such. Religion is not beneficent - it’s dangerous.

Ahem, it’s been mentioned in earlier posts.
THERE IS NO GOD!!!
No Yahweh, Zeus, Isis, Allah, or even Clapton.
Well maybe a Clapton but I digress.
Get the message out; there is no god, end of discussion.

All of you fence sitters come to grips with it.
When did you see him, her or it last?
“I saw the face of Thor on a Twinkie.
And then I witnessed his supreme Thoriness
in the birth of my children. He came to me in
a dream with his father Odin and together
they used his war hammer, Mjolnir, to hammer
me into believing they are the one true fairy tale.
We must make a shrine, it’s a miracle!”

Pretty silly right? Just replace Thor with
the invisible saint or deity of your choice
and you will realize how the rational world
looks at you. Jesus? He’s alive. Yep, he’s
waiting outside of Home Depot right now
and he can replace your roof for about half
what a licensed contractor would charge.
I believe in Jesus!

Now that’s just wrong. Jesus forgive me!

Leave the dark side and come into the enlightenment.
All are welcome. We are not immoral, just without
an invisible hierarchy and ancient literature to make us
choose morality over immorality. I know, it’s scary to
leave the mythical comfort zone, what would the neighbors
think if you developed a sense of reason?

Sex is not immoral people are immoral. Sex is how you
got here unless your mother was a petrie dish.
No offense intended, I’m sure she was lovely
and sparkled fresh from the dishwasher.
That’s must be where you got your good looks!

Now, that settled, what do we do next?

RE: Comment #58213 by SAM_O on 3/12 at 6:08 pm

I disagree with the fundamentalist Muslims that would take such scripture as literally, but with all due respect, they for the most part are not the ones depriving gays of their rights and trying to party like it’s 1099.  Supposedly we are fighting two wars in the Middle East to defeat such people, why should we ignore the same kind of hate and ignorance on our own doorstep?  Taliban is as Taliban does.

When I hear the phrase “Don’t blame us for following what’s in the Bible!”  I usually follow that up with:
“Why do you pick and choose which verses to follow?  Why don’t you say we should kill children that curse at their parents? That’s written in the Bible!  Why don’t you burn everything a woman touches when she’s menstruating? That’s written in the Bible!  Why don’t you call for slavery to be legal?  That’s written in the Bible!”

Those who claim to follow the Bible generally don’t know everything what’s written in the Bible.  I pity these people.

One reason the Christian right makes such an outcry against the gays is because by their existence the gays send the social message that the church has failed in its mission to have a positive influence on society, thus sending the message to them that all their ‘good works’ agendas are redundant, and nobody likes to be told that what they’re doing is redundant. So this partly explains the anger owned by the so-called ‘Christian Right.’

Most of the males of the so-called ‘Christian Right’ are emasculated not only by the top down control setup of the system church, but also (and mostly) by their wives by allowing their women to wear the pants.The first thing an emasculated male does is to try to find ways to reinforce his own self perception of being masculine, usually by doing macho things, or by becoming powerful in some way, but also by trying to find ways to have control over others, all as a compensation for the emasculation he feels. And the greater the emasculation the greater the need to compensate for it, which explains the impetus behind a guy like Dobson who looks like the quintessential wimp and who speaks with an old woman’s voice inflection.

There is a Christian principle that says “What you judge you become”(per Romans 2:1), and what the so-called ‘Christian Right’ have succeeded in doing to themselves by judging the gays is to give rights to the spirit controlling the gays to rebound onto them to produce in them an equally aberrant male-female social style, only in the opposite extreme, and equally bizarre. And the inner and subconscious awareness of it sets up an overbalanced need to defend it, and a need to try to force it on everyone else. And this is not to mention the spirit driving the ploy who seeks to use the so-called ‘Christian Right’ as pawns for him to use to extend his range of control.

Be careful; the term ‘sexual preferences’ feeds right into their prejudice. We are talking about sexual orientation here.

That fact that one might prefer blondes has nothing to do with one’s orientation.

Christian Joe, I respect your opinion, but pray tell why should any gay man or lesbian woman or heterosexual who believes in treating all humans equally and who live in a civil society care what you think?  I mean, why should a particular belief system that says change is possible, and therefore by inference that all gay men and women should try to change (and if not, perhaps be discriminated against because…what?...they have resisted change) be allowed to dominate? 

What makes your religious belief trump mine in a civil society? 

Why should we tolerate religion being wielded like a weapon against a minority that simply wants to contribute to society like most in America?  (I have yet to see the research, but given my experience, I would bet that homosexuals are over-represented in the helping fields.) 

Oh, I’ve heard the spurious arguments, the comparing of homosexuals, who want only to live their own lives, to all sorts of “evil doers.”  Every group that has ever wanted to damn another either out of fear or to maintain control or gain power has turned the “other” into child seducers and murderers.  Christians were branded with this tragic tactic early on.  THIS is just more of THAT. 

Worry about what you do in the privacy of your bedroom and leave me alone.

If you haven’t already seen it, you should go read Glenn Greenwald’s article “Our right-wing arbiters of masculinity” where he shows what some of the name-callers of Edwards LOOK like.

The people who are doing all of this, including the friggin! Administration (I hate Gonzalez!) are wimps and bullies and can’t do a thing without another bully or two around them, propping them up.

They are cowards!

I thought it interesting that Americans need citizens ... students no less ... from other countries to openly protest in the streets against the Twig for them.

This society would never have become a democracy with the society we have today. It appears that a couple of generations (now adults) just never grew past needing a “paternalistic” role in their lives, and are now dependent on that type of government.

Ummm… We’re adults now. We can (and have to) stand up to the bullies ourselves.

Yeah. Sometimes its not fun. Sometimes you even end up with consequences. I know. But you sleep well at night.

First off, Sam_O, it is NOT the Muslim right in America who is currently threatening our democracy—it is the Christian Right.  There are Muslims that believe in live and let live and are friends to the gay community just like there are Christians who are not Pharisees draping themselves in the mantle of Christ.  And whatever happened to the new covenant that Jesus ushered in?  You know the one…where you interpret the old testament with the most important law noted by Jesus: love your neighbor as yourself. 

Also, Hedges says, “This cult of masculinity keeps all ambiguity, especially sexual ambiguity, in check.”  If this were true, we wouldn’t be reading in the paper with great frequency about some self-professing fundamentalist preacher or politician who was outed because his homosexual behavior.

For much of my life, there was a kind of comic that showed a dishelved person holding a sign that read, “The end of the world is near.”  It was a joke that the vast majority of Americans could laugh about.  Now we have the biggest “the end of the world is near” cult probably ever found in one place on the planet at any time in history, and they are doing their best to bring about the end of the world.  What lunacy!  Eveyone likes to feel important—you know, the big one will happen in their lifetime and THEY will be on the side of good…ta da!  I HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH A TREMENDOUS FORCE FOR EVIL IN MY ENTIRE LIFE THAN THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT!!!

The Christian Right are modern day Pharisees, concerned not with the spirit of the law, but the letter of the law.  All that Jesus said about this issue is entirely lost on them, which only goes to prove that they are Pharisees and not Christians (e.g., from the man with the paralyzed hand whom Jesus healed on a Sunday, while the Pharisees looked on hoping to catch him break God’s law, to the admonition that the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath). 

God save us from your followers!!!

Be sure and visit Iblamethepatriarchy.com.  I’ve been blaming them for fifty-six years. And it IS all their fault!  As a girl I thought, surely by the year 2007 everything wouldn’t still be about the dick.  Silly me.

I’d like to wish all gay and lesbian TDer’s an especially delightful day with your partner(s).  If there’s anything the world could use more of, it’s great sex.  Same to you heteros, too.  Great sex is one of life’s joys.  If you don’t need it, fine.  If you don’t want it, fine.  It’s just sex.  Sex, sex, sex.  Be glad when you’re having it and then go on to something else.  Don’t concern yourself with other people and their sex.  Sex, except group sex, is a private thing.  Have the kind of sex you want and then do something else; don’t worry about some else’s sex.  It’ll make you crazy.  Besides, you need to accept the possibility that someone out there is liking their sex more than you like yours and they may even be homosexual.  Rest assured, though, they have a non-sex facet to their lives like you have.  It’s probably not just sex, sex, sex, all the time with them.  For some of them, sex just might be minor.  I suggest finding a good book on the behavior of homosexuals to help you dispel some of the myths and fears about it and then you can get on with more important issuse in your own life.  Sex is sex; nothing more, nothing less.  Incidentally, what perfect creator would have created something so problematic in humans?

I cannot see how gay marriage can possibly have a negative effect on MY marriage. I cannot see how it can have a positive effect either.

But I DO see that what lucid, happily consenting adults do is nobody’s damn business.

Dr. William Spier: The transfiguration you describe in Christianity took place far, far earlier. By the mid-400’s there were 5 Christian churches.  And by that time Saint Cyril, the bishop of Alexandria had already ordered the great Library of Alexandria burned—the greatest intellectual crime ever committed in the Western world.

One of these 5 churches was the Catholic church and, at this time, it was militant, tyrannical, absolutist and tolerated no deviation or questioning of dogma.  In 475 AD, it completed destroying the Arian Church, the most liberal of the 5, declaring Arians heretics and killing anyone who wouldn’t repent.

What was the great heresy? The Arians believed that God was all powerful, and, if he so chose, he could (not would) create another savior.  Of course, this would mean that the priests as the SOLE means of communicating to God (another travesty) would lose their uniqueness.  Naturally, the only logical path for the followers of The Prince of Peace was to slaughter the “blasphemers”.  Excuse me, the SO-CALLED followers of “The Prince of Peace”...As little as I know about scripture I doubt there’s anything in ANY scripture where Christ advocates slaughter people over a difference of opinion.

Today’s “Soldiers for Christ” are the same vile slime that put aside everything good about Christ and solely concentrate on getting to Heaven.  They actually believe Armageddon is a good thing, and want to bring it about.  They actually think that by bringing about cataclysm the Rapture with occur and they will be yanked up to Heaven out of their socks.

They believe that God will accept bastards who brought about destroying His world and the deaths of millions of innocents as holy, simply because they PROFESS to love Jesus.  Yet they love NOTHING he stood for even according to their own scripture.

Why are so many right wingers and crazies like James Dobson speaking for God. They each seem to think they know exactly what God wants. Sorry but my God doesn’t preach hate and intolerance.
These religous leaders that get rich preaching to us would not welcome the poor man with long hair and sandals, no money in his pockets to give to them, a mere carpenter preaching love..Jesus would be turned away,and all the while would be getting a sermon on the proper ways of the bible.
My knowing a gay person will not make me want to be gay, as these crazies want us to believe.
These anti-gays must really think they are hot as they are afraid if in a room with a gay person that he or she would be drooling over them. Give me a break! Just as I know that every male I meet doesn’t find me resistable sexually, neither does every gay person I meet.
If someone is not coming on to me or mine, against our wishes whatever their sexual preference, then let them live their own lives as they see fit.

I think the strong stench of power is apparent here. The Christian leadership demands obedience from its members, who are males of course. This is the status quo and homosexuals represent a threat to this power structure. The threat is: that a homosexual could live a satisfactory life and cause the faithful to become not so faithful by witnessing a competing role model or life behavioral system. The Christian leadership and any male benefitting from current beliefs and practices would surely feel this threat. The issue then is power.  And, what is power? It is the ability to control and effect the behavior of others. For the system to work requires the obedience of the female. Surely by now the obedient female is an anachronism in our quickly changing society.

A quarter of the way through Chris’s article I thought of Nazi Germany. It seems to me that everything is already in place here, or soon will be. Wire tap capabilitys, ID cards or Driver’s license needed for practically everything. Cell phones can track one’s whereabouts.

Last time it was the Jews, homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Poles… Who will it be this time? Most likely the Arabs, and Muslims in general. The propaganda and stereotyping against them seems reminiscent of the propaganda and stereotyping against Jews years ago, except perhaps the violence factor. I guess the Holocaust wasn’t horrifying enough to wake people up. Chris seems to suggest we’re on the road to reliving it.

Framing the Debate By George Lakoff is a book that sheds light on how Chris’s premise is accomplished.

But the most disturbing of all is, that most of us go only as far as the nearest blog to voice our concern, even outrage. Most of us feel powerless to do something or to know what to do to stop the madness. Our politicians are bought and paid for and perhaps all have their own dirty little secrets that could be exposed if they rebel. But most likely, it’s that they like their privileged jobs and know who’s paying the bills to keep them in power. And most don’t see or want to see the big picture. It’s every man for himself and the country be damned.

Remember the poem by Pastor Martin Niemöller (1892–1984). He wound up in a Nazi concentration camp for speaking out.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

Which reminds me of my favorite from John Dunne, Meditation XVIII believe the last lines of which go like this:

“No man is an island entire to itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main …. Any man’s death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”

In my St Louis neighborhood is an unkempt little house with JESUS spray painted on a window.  On the fence are large KEEP OUT, NO TRESPASSING signs.

I don’t think this family has anything to say that I need to hear.

Sexually, I’m a hetero.  Nothing could change how I was born.  I assume everyone’s as they were born.  No reason to expect others to change.  Why on earth would anyone want them to?

What is particularly disturbing to me is the images of the “prince of peace” as warrior.  The militarization of our very lives has got to stop!  It can have no good end.

Here’s hoping that the Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, and the like are dinosaurs, desperately gasping for one last breath before mercifully fading away into the sunset.  Maybe someone should unmask the sexual proclivities of these stalwarts (or just warts) of conservative Christianity.

Why is there no outrage about the Muslim faith rejecting gays? “We also sent Lut: He said to his people: Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, “Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!”” (Qur’an 7:80-82)
“Let God be true and every man a liar.” [Romans 3:4]
Hedges is a man lost in his hubris.

Most of my life I’ve followed a personal philosophy of “live and let live.” I’ve never considered I had a right to dictate to anyone how he or she should lead his/her life, and I’ve ASSUMED that all sane others would grant me the same opportunities.

I now understand the rather massive error of my assumptions. It has become crystal clear that there are MILLIONS of lobotomized sheep amongst us who piss their woollies about anything or anyone who doesn’t baaaa like they do. (Apologies to all real sheep - but let’s face it, my wool-bearing friends, your kind isn’t known for critical thinking or independent action.)

All those who just stand by and allow these hypocritical fascists to intimidate and lie and cheat their way to power and control DESERVE WHAT THEY WILL GET (and it won’t be either power or control).

Dick Cheney has to be terribly conflicted about Mary. His dilemma is not uncommon.  All those religious people who hate one sort or another sinner should be making plans about what to do if one of their own loved ones turns out to be one sort or another sinner.  It will present you with problems.  You may have to flip-flop.  And you don’t want to do that, or at least let it be known you’ve done that. Consider taking a vacation from the church to rely on your own intelligence to make decisions about your life and others.  It’s quite empowering to learn how capable and resourseful you can be despite what you were taught by your religious parents and their church.  The church exists in perpetual fear that you will someday discover you don’t need it.  They need your money.  Your life, you may find, may take an upswing.

As a Christian myself, most individuals of this faith don’t believe in these acts of hate. Those acts are committed by extremists. But, we do believe that change is possible. Child development psychology tells us that boys and girls are faced with “tests”, if you will, as they are maturing. By the time they reach the age of dating, they will automatically be attracted to the opposite sex of the group they identified with throughout their childhood. Now, identity formulation can occur for any given number of reasons and circumstances. No gay man or woman’s childhood is the same. But if a gay man does not fit in with “the boys” throughout childhood, he will then be attracted to men later in life because he always related to female’s.

As a Christian myself, I wish the real church would step up and address this issue compassionately.

No one can prove there is a gay gene. No one has proven there isn’t one. But what if there isn’t a gay gene? Why is the gay community so stubborn and arrogant to seek out the truth? Why settle for the status quo.

I know this view is unpopular…but I believe seeking truth is the only way to go when uncertainty comes knocking.

God cannot endure without hate; nor can hate truly flourish without God.  The source for this view is simply human history.  It’s all around us.  Every bit as evident in so-called “Godless Communism” as in “Islamofascism” or Christian Fundamentalism.  All the communists did was substitute State for God.  The idea’s the same: something nebulous holding absolute dominion over physical reality.  And only the Chosen Ones can properly understand, interpret and bring to fruition the essence of this all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful entity.  So, too, is the mechanism of its objectification always the same: human behavior.  There must be Outsiders whose differences highlight correct behavior by demonstrating everything behaviorally corrupt.  And these Outsiders must be constantly punished as proof to the masses that differences always lead to dire consequences.
God is the fountainhead of terror.  No terrorist would take so much as a single step without God lighting his way.  Until man comes to the realizatiion that the concept of “God” is the embodiment of evil, there can never be peace, freedom or justice on earth.

Fundamental religion poses a grave threat to world peace. Fundamentalism denies freedom of thought and expression. It is summed up by a popular bumper sticker in Dread states which reads: “God said it. I believe it. That settles it.” Christianists have shown their disdain for state authority. By claiming allegiance only to their god, they resist accountability for their hateful prejudice. They deny near-contemporaneous accounts of Jesus’ life such as the Essine gospel and seek to nullify any historical mention of women’s prominence in the church. Initially, their tax-exempt status should be revoked. Ultimately, their hate-filled propaganda will be exposed as secular venom.

Hate begets hate.  The way to fight these guys is to overtly infiltrate their numbers in small or large groups.  And then we quietly start laughing amongst ourselves whenever we hear the words of hate, the perversion of a religion’s peaceful message.  We laugh at the absurdity, we laugh through our fear and so we diffuse and defuse the hate.  We do not become our enemies.  We do not escalate the vitriol.  Joy is infectious and so more empowering than hate.

This article, and Hedges’ book “American Fascists” should be required reading and trumpeted by the MSM, many of whom will undoubtedly themselves be banished once the take-over is complete.

Christian patriarchalism underwent epochal transformation from the Middle Ages onward.  Then it found its symbiosis with clan strong arm men, dukes, kings and others who kept the masses in line at the butt end of a sword.  Over centuries it seems this patriarchal power forms and overtakes all institutions under rationalism.  The Church comfortably becomes some sort of theater where the male power (within the family, city, country etc.) is reified and made sacred.  The uneducated masses who suffered so much turned to priest to assure them that the male god would promise them a better life. First of all though, the remnants of animism had to be beaten out of the community.

To try to understand the pathology that ensued in Western society is the stuff that that takes up volumes.  But, whenever a Western society is in crisis—be it Germany in the 20’s, or the U.S. now, Christian leaders make pacts with corporatists and a ruling elite past their creative period—in order to bolster what Chris Hedges calls the “Cult of Masculinity.”

Look back to the 1970’s for the current evangelical/fascist movements nascent period.  Church mysticism had to compete with that other religion, the self help movement (EST, etc) for a population led astray by the liberated 60’s. The current evangelical/fascist group coalesced around defeating the Equal Rights Amendment.  This was a time when male authority was taking a hit with a long recession that forced women to take on a more important role in support of the family. The ERA was pummeled in the South and Ohio; just the places where chronic unemployment was the order.  Spousal abuse cases were on a big upswing at the time.

Reagan becomes the great white father for the masculinity cult; praise the lord; and open the back door to the Treasury.

Well put, really. Thoughtful analysis followed by thoughtful comments. Pity that the majority of people in the US (and the rest of the world, for that matter) don’t have the personal will to inform themselves of the dynamics of the forces truly at play. If they did, the religion-peddling bigots full of self-proclaimed piety who yield so much power would have seen their end, and the world would be a better place. I wonder, what will it take for humanity to wake up to the fact that our religions are yolking us to misery?

Why are the christianists obsessed with sex?  ‘Obsession’ is the only word I can find to appropriatley describe it.  I mean, really - all of their top “issues” are related to sex.  They don’t get excited about something unless there’s a sex component.

I have taken to, when confronted by such types, very calmly asking them “Why are you obsessed with sex?”  Try it sometime; the reactions are astonishing.  Denial, rage, threats of physical reprisal.  Yep - don’t do this unless you’re ready to avert those attacks.  One of ‘em actually pulled out a gun and demanded “take it back! That’s a lie!”  I am not making this up.

During the early days of Hitler’s rise to power he was openly ridiculed, mocked and belittled as a silly little man with a ridiculous mustache and an elevated sense of his own importance.  The most vocal among his German taunters were the very rich and the intellectuals, many, many of whom just happened to be Jews. 

Historians studying the man and his reign argue that his eventual war on the Jews stemmed from what he saw as their threat to his very existence - not to his reign necessarily - but to his very existence and NOT because they were Jews. (The fact that they were an identifiable minority didn’t hurt either.) His jeering detractors kept reminding him that he really was a silly, weak and insecure mass of quivering nothing.  His actual survival depended, therefore, on their elimination.

Although I haven’t read it, it may be that a goodly number of German intellectuals were homosexuals to explain why they were also singled out for extermination.

Is it possible that this obsessive hatred of homosexuals in today’s America by the self-identified Christian-right bullies stems from their perceived sense that the homosexual community finds them ridiculous, reminds them that their elevated sense of their own importance is based on nothing? 

(Maybe it’s because they found out that Alexander the Great was a homosexual so who knows there might be another one lurking among America’s homosexuals.  Now that would be a REAL threat.)

I am baffled by cristofascists championing heterosexuality, while demonizing sexuality itself, and damning homosexuals and bisexuals, meanwhile observing total silence against the one missing group, the asexuals.

There are people who not interested in sex.

I suspect the asexuals frighten the cristofascists so much they can’t even bear to think about them.

Which of course encourages me to shout the news from the rooftops.

made my skin crawl, thank you chris

The problem here isn’t gays, or straights, it’s a self-perpetuating semi-criminal enterprise called “Organized Religion”. Oh, the shame, O, the hypocrisy, when Rev. Haggard, that guardian
of the faith, that holy speaker from On High, brought to you in 24/7 surround-sound HDTV Holyvision, got caught with a nose full of crank, and his hand down another man’s pants. Oh, the outrage! ROTF

I’m for weekly open-book public audits of each and every religious institution that wants to hold their business in our country anymore. Jesus(Ref. Matthew, look it up) put the moneychangers out of the temple, and likely lost a sandal in an unmentionable place in the process. Just because people broadcast scripture, or seemingly aspire to piety, does not make them either pious, or even necessarily religious. Religion(R) and Salvation(R), are registered trademarks(TM) of
Jesus, Inc. If the REAL jesus showed up here next week, there’d sure as hell be a lot of salt pillars standing around…still holding their religious literature, no doubt(Only 6 easy payments of $49.99 for your very own, gilt-edged, 100% corinthian leatherbound King James edition. Order now, get a second bible absolutely free! Operators are standing by, call now, at 1-800-FLEECE-U!). What a sad and pathetic spectacle we’ve collectively allowed to persist. Martin Luther had it right when he took these bastards to task…

I disagree that people are “prodded” into these groups. A majority simply follow the path of least resistance, seeking simply to belong to something and viewpoints and beliefs be damned.

I recall all the battles the various groups went through for rights: women, gays, disabled, even religion (non-Christian Fundamentalist), etc.

That has been destroyed by the current regime and society itself, whether through culture or apathy. It began with a few “leaders” and the media, and drew others for popularity, not principles.

It was and is sanctioned by every branch of government, particularly the legal profession and courts which should have been on top of it to provide the checks and balances of the system.

For example, as Blog4Brains said in the past couple of weeks, Texas has a completely Republican State Supreme Court, and it is showing in the loss of basic rights and government in the State of Texas. How many other state governments have that. Or communities themselves.

So much is said about the violations of BASIC rights of those accused of terrorism, or the prisoners overseas, but I can tell you THOUSANDS of American citizens who are denied their “rights” daily in the lowest levels of government and the courts.

When they protest, they are abandoned and distanced by their families and neighbors.

Geesh! Wouldn’t it be obvious that sexual orientation would be openly attacked without fear of reprisal or accountability when non-Christians, the disabled, and others are so obviously attacked on a daily basis?

And its’ within the mindset of the community, especially those who are supposed to be serving the interests of the public, or at least their clients. Less than two weeks ago an online attorney who maintains a Constitutional Rights blog told me he wouldn’t ever communicate with someone, including a potential or actual client, via TTY. That is the norm, not an exception.

THAT is reality in this country, and no amount of protest will change it until the people change, which is unlikely to happen.

Those who do not educate themselves to history’s evil actions are doomed to repeat them.  Jesus Christ as a compassionate, gentle, kind, loving teacher is totally lost from many pulpits of America…..It does not bode well for the homosexuals; for the women; the children; people of other faiths; of no faith; nor for any educated thinker.  This regression to the dark ages must be countered by freedom loving people of every persuasion everywhere!

I have followed Chris for a few years now and am struck by his passion and depth of perspective. His rise on the mainstream radar is key to my belief a dialogue is being undertaken and the right will not walk away with our country.

Likewise framing the argument correctly helps.

To that end, his as well as all of our according right wing extremists the moniker “christian” with any adjective is wrong. It only legitimizes their use of the word. As if (2+2) has other answers than (4).

Any true dissection of the challenge our country faces needs to begin with charectarizing the leaders of this group as what they are - and whatever they are the word “christian” should not be included in description of.

Once we correctly context the situation and the players then we can properly address each others concerns, motivations and goals. Allowing the leaders to define themselves as christian allows for them to hid behind large groups of people.  Individuals like all of us who are searching for a security that comes from the seeking, learning and acquiring of comfort in and an understanding of our existence. Allowing them to find that solace in power hungry divisionists we call christians - right wing or otherwise - short changes not only them but makes the whole dialogue much more difficult.

...and it looks might challenging over the next few years…let’s not make our task more difficult.

A powerful article with some good insights.  It is past time for non-heterosexuals to get militant.  Freedoms don’t last if one doesn’t continually fight for them. 

I’ve just never understood why anyone would care what others do consensually with their bodies.  I don’t care who has consensual sex with whom.  But then, I’m not a terror-stricken Christian trying to beef up my insecurities with god-talk.

I have long considered - and not just jokingly - that gays should reclaim the word “gay-bashing” and make it literal: Gays beating the crap out of rednecks who attack.  Most of the gay-hating hets I know are flabby wastes of space (Falwell, Phelps, Robertson, their congregations of fools), while most of the gays I know have great builds and lots of muscle.  Why not put that to use?  Give the hets something real to fear.

I know, I know, it’s politically incorrect and immoral to beat people up, even gay-bashers.  But since most of those gay-baiting hets would run screaming like little girlies if someone fought back, I think it might be fun to try.

Anyway, with vast overpopulation and its intendant collapse of our economy, non-breeders should be praised, and rewarded with huge tax breaks.  It’s the breeders who will eventually be ostracized for poisoning our planet with more hungry mouths and SUV-drivers.

Some People may be made uncomfortable by the comparison and parellels between the far right of WWII Germany and the far right in this country. However, I believe there is a leason to learn from what happened in Germany and what is beginning in this country. We should remember that at lest in the Urban areas of Germany prior to WWII the social climate was for the time very liberal and accepting.

The constant need of the far right to create enemies to justify their over reaching for power and their need to dominate even on the level of people’s personal choices in life lead to repression, oppression and extreme physical violence and will do so here.

It is so irrational for the Religious to abandon the Bill of Rights in the interest of forcing their often minority views upon everyone else. It is a crime most peculiar to Abrahamic Religions. It is a natural result of the conceit that GOD would dictate their beliefs to some, but some how, on something so important (if true) that he forgets the vast majority of mankind.

What I am saying GOD would not leave such an important matter to a 3rd party, he would tell each of us individually and we would all be free. Instead Relilgion wants us to believe that GOD only speaks to Prophets and clergymen and those who follow them and not to each of humanity.

A very strange GOD with an appetite for murder, torture and slavery. The crimes of this current administration and its refusal to follow the dictates of the majority of our population is no accident. It is a threat to the welfare of everyone including the ones who follow fundamentalist over the edge of the abbess.

Scary and correct assessment. The conservative agenda props up the non-existent deity to retain their power. “Don’t blame us, it’s God’s law”.

Stop screwing around with the “secular humanist” title. Skeptics of the country unite and force the lion, scarecrow and woodsman to look behind the curtain where there is not so much as a wizard.

Who cares what is eroding the institute of marriage? It’s a man made travesty. Ask Limpbow, Gingrinch and Julie Annie how the “fags” caused their wedding vows to disintegrate. Julie Annie must be under their gender-confusing spell as often as he throws on a dress and make-up. “Not that there’s anything wrong with that!”

The truth is these phonies know there is no god. They are too bright despite what you might think. They play the god card because they know it pleases the rubes, keeps them in power and allows for perverse statements the likes of “I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.” The other side plays the god card too. Bubba hooking up with Jazzy Jackson to soul search on why they both sought extramarital blow jobs. I feel their pain, it’s called blue balls.

No god equals no Christian agenda, no conservatives, no liberals only humans. But then everyone would be looked upon as equals and there is no power to be squeezed out of that.

Imagine a world where people having sex had nothing to do with the human rights afforded anyone else in the society. Nearly heaven on earth, don’t you think?

Too much analysis paralysis!

All of their hypocritical evil can be expressed in one word: Haggard.

They are the American equivalent to the Taliban and the Madrassa schools.  They aren’t as violent—yet, but the murderous campaign against women’s health clinics (I mean murdering the doctors) DID have a chilling effect.  That’s not how it’s supposed to work in America.

Yet the attacks on homosexuals is only the tip of the iceberg—that is why I say this is analysis paralysis.  EVERY area of human freedom and diversity are under attack by these bastards.

Like the Taliban, they want to impose a narrow, brutal, mind-deadening control on America, and ultimately the world.  As we shudder to read that Al Qaeda and other radical Islamic groups seek to eventually force the ENTIRE world into conformance with their form is Islam, so too should we fear the christo-fascists.  They have EXACTLY THE SAME GOAL!

Under the banner of “Christianity” they attack EVERYTHING we hold sacred about the United States…and then they sing “God Bless America”—a song written by an immigrant Jewish man named Irving Berlin—someone, whom, if they get their way, would be barred from entering this nation.

We are all in danger.

it looked so easy, our heritage beckoned
the nation was, after all, christian
and so they began their crusade marching toward theocracy
and as they plodded the children wailed, “are we there yet?”
and god whispered “you’re going the wrong way”

I think they are far more sinister in their intentions and with goals more widespread.  This also goes for other religions like Islam.  They are very similar in their regard for others and attempt to hold down those they don’t like or feel are inferior.

It is an enigma to me that seemingly ordinary people around the globe consider themselves qualified to judge their neighbors sexual preferences. How is it the business of anyone to judge what any other person chooses to do in their bedrooms (assuming what is done is by consenting adults)? What effect do people that lead homosexual lives have on the lives of heterosexuals, i.e; those that set themselves up as judges?
To me this represents just one more effort of the church working in conjunction with governments acting as a devisive wedge to create tension and splintering among their citizens.
More of the old divide and conquer.
                            Anything that can be done to distract populations from the real crimes that are being commited by their governments will suffice. If Americans are encouraged to hate people of a different color, people of a different culture, people of a different religion, people that exhibit the least differences from themselves then this hate can be channeled to use by organized religion and government to its on neferious ends.

Governments and religions want to acchieve ‘group think’ and they do it by dummying down their populations. Organized religion strives for ‘faith’ among its flock. Governments strive for educational systems that teach by rote, and thus leaving little room for one to learn to think for ones self.

I have seen much handwringing of late by newspapers that are loosing circulation and tv ‘news broadcasts’ that are loosing viewers. The ‘experts’ that comment on such losses act as if their disappearing audiences are some great mystery. There is no mystery at all. The fact is that they are loosing out because anyone can get on the internet and read/view what is really going on in the world.

Do not believe for a minute that governments and religions do not fear the internet. They definitely do and will work to control content and limit the exchange of ideas.