Comment #60562 by Jeff Badura on 3/26 at 2:05 pm

to the Comment #60424 by Skruff !!

i believe you are fooling yourself if you think with time the Muslims cannot severely damage our way of live ???

Yeap.. They CAN damage the way we live, BUT only with Chinese and soviet and even US weapons bought on the international marketplace in Indonesia.

Someday, The US, like previous colonial powers, will learn that action abroad, results in reaction at home.  The weapons we give to “our friends” will return in the hands of our enemies to kill our troops.  It’s simple economics.

to the Comment #60424 by Skruff !!

i believe you are fooling yourself if you think with time the Muslims cannot severely damage our way of live ??? i don’t believe the Chinese have it in them to attack us out of hand were as the Islamics do ??? the time to prevent the next attack is before the fact not after??  but I’m being redundant now !!

i did not, or do not, intend to sound insulting to you!! pardon me if i come off that way  

to the Comment #60402 by tyler,

i am being serious ?? your right about being suspicious of 100% of the content about any info you get !! but the site has some merit in the fact that it points out all the (terror attacks) acts of war going on globally!! as far as the “Guardian” goes its an anti USA English paper sort of tabloidish and leans such !! does that mean everything they print is lies ??? no !! but you have to consider their agenda !! just like any thing else!! 

I’m not just “afraid” I’m prudent !! 9/11 was no hoax, believing the bad guys who open declare war against the USA and are actively attack the US, is not being afraid !! I would say the opposite that ignoring them is being overly naive !!

Jeff… There is no need to be insulting. Believe it or not, some people have long considered opinion studied carefully, and come to conclusions not similaar to yours.

Trace the Nuclear technology found in Iran back to its roots, and you will see “Made in China” lables just like the ones on your shoes.

Please don’t ASS-U-ME anything about my thought process that I have not written.  I am so conservative (Fiscally) that I probably (and I say this advisedly) make you look like Mike Dukakis…. BUT I do not buy the mainstream media’s accounts of events (This includes FOX, CNN, and the NYT) We are in a economic race with folks who still call themselves “Communists” and no one seems to notice…

I really don’t fear the folks in the Middle East, BUT I never said I doubted Muslim extremism (anymore than I doubt xtian extremeism.) However, the Chinese are smart, many and dangerous (The silkworm CAN reach LA) and the Muslims are the three stooges.

to jeff badura:

Thanks for the link, explains why you’re so scared. 

You dismiss ‘The Gaurdian’ as being of the same thread as ‘Star’, and ‘The Enquirer’, and then you give us this site!

Be serious.

to Tyler and Skruff and Jackie and any others who questions “the existence of Islamic Extremism” check out this site http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

to the Comment #60087 by Skruff who says “Saudi Arabia is “the heart of the middle East.  It contains two of the Muslims holiest shrines & There were 15 (out of 19) Saudi nationals on the planes that hit the WTC,” 

Skruff,  Bin Ladden hand picked the Saudis to do that job, for that reason you have stated, he was trying to drive a wedge between us and and Saudi Arabia, it was his wish and plan to have us cut off relations with the Kingdom, and then we would be facing off against them too as well as Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya, his plan was to have us strike back for a short while, get tired, then leave the Middle East completely, (what the Dem’s are up too)  then he, or his kind, could wage the religious civil war against the moderates without our interference !! look the problem we have is not with bordered nations, it is with a cultural movement, called Islamic Extremism so Bin Ladden who is one of the gang leaders in this movement, could have picked many different kind of nationalist if he wished !! he picked the Saudis so that you would react the way your reacting !!  if the attacks we and British foiled last summer would have went off !!  all the attackers would have been English born Muslims, so if you expand on your logic than we would and should attack England ??? of coarse not !! its not nations we are war with, its radical Islam and they exist in almost every nation !! but there born from the Middle East.  so yes “we do what we can do” first Iraq, because of the many problems of the last 20 yrs caused by Saddam !! then Libya surrendered, now we have to finish Iraq and by doing so probably will have to bomb Iran, either way Iran cannot be allowed to acquire nukes !! then Syria and Sudan will have to be dealt with militarily too !! hopefully in time the Saudis will liberalize if they don’t then that’s another problem to deal with at a latter date !!

skruff also said as far as Russia and China goes, “these folks will begin to move.  40% of the world’s population lives in less than adaquate conditions in two contries.  Both these countries have nuclear weapons.  Both have indicated a resolve to use them”…

well,  China and Russia definitely did not attack us on 9/11, I’m a hawk, and consume all the news i can, Ive never heard them threaten us with a nuclear attack or even chants of “death to the USA” like Iran does,  both countries are tired to us economically !!  so i don’t know were you get your info,  sure there is an implied threat by them having nukes, but its more defensive in nature, both countries have bureaucratic systems set up with checks and balances, so i don’t think a sneak attack by either is due anytime soon!! Russia and China both must be dealt with using diplomacy ! and we need to build a missile shield and work to reduce all our nuclear stockpiles

were as the Islamic extremist will use the WMD’s once then get their hands on them,  we cannot use diplomacy on the Islamic zealots for they have already stated there demands : 1) leave all countries on the middle east. 2)stop supporting Israel. 3) convert to Islam and follow Sharia law. !! maybe we could do #1 and #2 but the third is a non starter, no, its Jihad and they have declared it,  only killing off the leaders and changing the more belligerent governments of the region one by one will give us a lasting peace for our grandchildren !! 

again skruff don’t use one problem or misdeed as an excuse not fix another one, that stagnates and paralyzes us !! one step at a time “a journey of 1000 miles begins with one foot step” but your argument would have us fall to the ground and say its to far !! 

also i hope your not implying that the Pentagon hit luckily at the construction site was planned ??? that the USA planned 9/11 ???  this argument is so blatantly ridiculous, that it says volumes about the character of anyone who would dare to float it !! -illgramaticus knee o’kaun

Comment #59969 by Jeff Badura on 3/22 at 5:18 pm states:

“Iraq is in the heart of the Middle East !! a democratic Iraq will be a huge blow to Islamic extremist and hopefully would cause other populations to demand the same rights of there governments !! after 9/11 we saw that the political environment in the Middle East was so toxic it had spilled over into attacks against the West, open blatant acts of war ?? ignoring them as Clinton did was a failed policy so Bush decided to be pro-active to try to change the political culture of the region and Iraq was 2nd on the list after Afghanistan, Iran is 3rd and Syria is 4th !!

I’m no fan of China or Russia, but we have to be practical !! a war with either of them would make Iraq look like tea party !!  we do what we can, when we can, you point out in that statement, a flaw in the logic of Dem’s and the left they always point to a misdeed to dismiss another wrong or point to a impossible task (war with china) to avoid doing a possible one (war with Iraq) this kind of thinking makes no sense, and if you follow it to its end, then we stagnate never doing anything about anything !! Rome wasn’t built in a day and world wide freedom wont happen overnight either, but just because it takes time and is hard to do is no reason to forsake doing it !!”

I’m probably stupid, BUT I don’t get this argument.  Saudi Arabia is “the heart of the middle East.  It contains two of the Muslims holiest shrines. 

There were 15 (out of 19) Saudi nationals on the planes that hit the WTC, the Defense Department Building (under construction and empty except for hourly workers at the time) and a field in Pennsylvania.  The other four terrorists were 2 Yemenese, 1 Egyption, and a Palestinian.  So rationally we attack Iraq.

Iraq never posed any threat to the US, during the 1970’s Saddam was on the CIA payrole.  China (on the other hand) and Russia pose great threats to the US. 

To say “we do what we can” is akin to the captain of the Titanic saying “forget about the iceburg, it’s too big.  but be sure we have the correct number of chairs in the diningroom. 

There is a serious problem in our world today. I at late middle age may not live to see the results of so many people engaged in grabbing what they can from others who have little to begin with…. BUT soon, these folks will begin to move.  40% of the world’s population lives in less than adaquate conditions in two contries.  Both these countries have nuclear weapons.  Both have indicated a resolve to use them…

Those are problems which must be resolved….and us dicking around in Iraq isn’t doing the job.

to the Comment #59726 by Skruff

Iraq is in the heart of the Middle East !! a democratic Iraq will be a huge blow to Islamic extremist and hopefully would cause other populations to demand the same rights of there governments !! after 9/11 we saw that the political environment in the Middle East was so toxic it had spilled over into attacks against the West, open blatant acts of war ?? ignoring them as Clinton did was a failed policy so Bush decided to be pro-active to try to change the political culture of the region and Iraq was 2nd on the list after Afghanistan, Iran is 3rd and Syria is 4th !!

I’m no fan of China or Russia, but we have to be practical !! a war with either of them would make Iraq look like tea party !!  we do what we can, when we can,  you point out in that statement, a flaw in the logic of Dem’s and the left they always point to a misdeed to dismiss another wrong or point to a impossible task (war with china) to avoid doing a possible one (war with Iraq) this kind of thinking makes no sense, and if you follow it to its end, then we stagnate never doing anything about anything !! Rome wasn’t built in a day and world wide freedom wont happen overnight either, but just because it takes time and is hard to do is no reason to forsake doing it !!

illgramticus knee o’kaun

Comment #59706 by Jeff Badura on 3/21 at 10:33 am Says:

“... the only problem is religion mixed with politics (Islamic extremism) will not allow sanity to appear !!”

I would have agreed wholeheartedly IF you had deleted the “(Islamic extremism)”

Religion…. ANY religion mixed into the politics of governance denies free individual will….wholeness, shall-we-say. Our founding fathers knew this and although they were (mostly) religious folk, they made allowences for folks not sharing their beliefs… I personally feel that this understanding of “diverse ideas” was what allowed this country to prosper and become a inventitive powerhouse of ideas.

Teach children to think and fend for themselves and you will gain market share.

That’s old fasioned conservativism….largely out-of-style today.

Us Yankees have always believed THE STATE has no business in our business….this includes our church attendence or lack of it….

Read “Johnny Tremain” an interesting (if a bit light) prespective about a western society under the yoke of the church.

Comment #59550 by Jeff Badura on 3/20 at 1:17 pm points out:

whether we gave Saddam his weapons or not??it doesn’t matter !! after 9/11 ,once he proved to be a threat to the future it was time he had to go !!  and just let me reassure you !! Bush did go into Iraq for all of us!! 

I’d have an easier time buying this argument IF we acted in the interests of American citizens in places where a threat (more serious than Saddam) exists.  China, the murderers and admitted possessors of nuclear weapons are our MFN trading partners.  The former Soviet Union (Russia) has almost as many nuclear weapons as we do….but we have yet to demand accountability.  Indoniesia, one of the most dangerous places on earth serves as a marketplace for terrorists to purchase WMDs but we are friends with them… and the lias goes on.  I think of Saddam as one of the stooges, incapable of even aquiring necessary material to bring the second largest known reserves of oil up to full pumping capacity.  forget launching a missle that would get even halfway to US shores.

Why Iraq?  maybe because an easy win would have been politically expedient after a stolen election?

to the Comment #59655 by Skruff,
    was it Mao that said politics comes from the end of a gun ?? and i say that religion comes from end of a sword !! then sanity must therefore come from the spoken or written word, the only problem is religion mixed with politics (Islamic extremism)  will not allow sanity to appear !! then we need to use the gun (political intervention) to allow the word to be heard !!

illgramaticus knee o’kaun

correction !! on my last comment meant to say “show me a conservative at 20 and ill show a man with no heart, show me a liberal at 50 and ill show you a man with no brains”

sorry all,

typing fast and not proof reading as i work for a living and don’t have all day !!

“illgramaticus” knee o’kaun

to the Comment #59568 by tyler “show me a liberal at 20 and ill show a man with no heart !! show me a liberal at 50 and ill show you man with no brain”!!  why do a a lot of people as they age and learn more about the world around them become conservative ??? are they growing stupid ??  your characterization only shows you basic intolerance for others point of view !!  i would match my IQ (grammar aside) against yours any day and squash you !! also smarts or no smarts !! Treason has never been an admirable trait !! so dump on your country all you like, it says volumes towards your character, instead of singing in the choir why don’t you branch out and face the fire as i do ?? me thinks you ain’t got the guts for it !!  did you watch the protests this weekend !!! a pack of fools all !!! is that your idea of the intelligent left ??? i read lots of it here too, its real smart !!! as you mentioned a few posts ago, about not lumping you in with those who blame the USA for 9/11 or those who call our leaders Nazis ?? but, i read your posts and you say nothing to contradict them ??? your silence says volumes, you go after patriots and leave traitors alone !! you made your choice who you stand with, and don’t like being called on it !!

illgramaticus knee o’kaun

Comment #59545 by Jeff Badura on 3/20 at 12:41 pm
notes:
Islam has been spread by the sword

But xtianity has been spread by????

to skruff:

Didn’t mean to offend you friend. As I said in the last sentence of my last statement, I have a problem taking the high road and not responding to the ignorant thoughts and words of some of the less-knowledgable ‘neo-cons’ we here from.

Call it a personality flaw, but i’m intolerant of intolerance, and I can be pretty stubborn against stubborness. 

We can walk the higher ground and not dignify certain comments or points of view that we might find ultra-conservative, offensive, whatever.  The problem, however, is that its the very people we choose to ‘take the high road’ from that elected this administration in to power.

Anyone who is familiar with the report that ‘The Economist’ put out after the ‘04 elections concerning voter demographics, knows that more people who were less-knowledgable of key issues voted than knowledgable people. (thats a PC way of saying more stupid people voted for bush, than smart people voted for Kerry.  Sorry for the offense.)  I honestly feel like some liberal minded people need to get a fire lit under their asses to get them actively supporting those who are in positions of power to do something. 

There seems to be a lack of passion in persuing what one really believes among the left.  I mean, look at jeff badura, he’s VERY passionate about voicing his opinion, and he doesn’t even know what he’s talking about! (sorry jeff, you don’t)  How long are we going to ‘take the high road’ and let certain people get away with preaching bigotry, rascism, elitism, etc. before we call them out on it and hold them accountable for it?

My persuit of supporting what I believe to be what is right goes far beyond posting comments on this web site (which for the record, I think is pretty great!), so i don’t feel like i NEED to participate.  I’m all for constructive conversation and debate, and I would LOVE to sit face to face with some of the people that post on this site.  It’s easy to talk tough on your keyboard, isn’t it?  I just that I can’t sit idly while some people post the garbage that they do.  Sorry.

to the Comment #58516 and #59485 by Skruff, whether we gave Saddam his weapons or not??it doesn’t matter !! after 9/11 ,once he proved to be a threat to the future it was time he had to go !!  and just let me reassure you !! Bush did go into Iraq for all of us!!  even for Tyler too !!! ha ha ha

illgramaticus knee o’kaun

to the Comment #59508 by tyler.  yes i have a Koran, I’ve read about 1/4 of it every other prayer has a punishment for the infidel !!  by the way Tyler you and me are those infidels !! when we hide behind PC we prevent ourselves from knowing the truth ! Islam has been spread by the sword !! Mohammad was a warrior and Jihad is a pillar of the faith !!

yes i go by recall i write many posts here, i speak the truth !! i dont see footnotes on your post ?? so i asume your doing the same too !!
and you cant hurt my feeling !!

illgramaticus knee o’kaun

to jeff badura:

Did i hurt your feelings jeff?  buck up.  Please point out to me my hypocracies from my statements, because your reaching for something you cannot grasp because it isn’t there.  How can you expect to be taken seriously when you admit to generalizing, speaking from ‘recall’, and present no real fact in anything you say? 

You say, “for the most part the religion of islam in my book is a religion of intolerance..”  Again jeff, thanks for showing us your true colors.  I guess BIGOT might be a better term for anyone who makes a statement like that.  Have you ever picked up a Koran jeff?  Why don’t you do that before you cast your generalizing judgements on millions of muslims, the VAST majority, who are honorable people. 

I guess attacking something you don’t have the mental capacity to understand, or even TRY to, is an easy cop-out.  You’re weak jeff, and so are your arguements, your logic, and your writing.  You rant and posture behind your ‘tough guy’, right wing ignorance, but your soft, and I guess I just have a hard time taking the high road and not calling you on it.

Comment #59435 by Jeff Badura on 3/19 at 5:05 pm

to the rude Comment #59338 by tyler !! you make my point about the intolerance of the left, the vitriol in you speech and the the hypocrisy in your statements !!!  me thinks your talking about yourself not me and your words prove it !!

liigramaticus knee o’kaun

Comment #59338 by tyler on 3/19 at 7:31 am

to jeff badura:

“motivated out of love for my fellow man” my ass jeff.  You spit hate because you lack the ability to comprehend, or even TRY to understand what is going on.

If “words prove” anything, they tell a story of one-upsmanship and lack of respect. 

Now out here on the internet it is easy to “dump a load” and not care who it offends, BUT that proves nothing in the real world…. too bad we can’t have a discussion… Then maybe that is the point of all this “rudeness”

to the rude Comment #59338 by tyler !! you make my point about the intolerance of the left, the vitriol in you speech and the the hypocrisy in your statements !!!  me thinks your talking about yourself not me and your words prove it !!

liigramaticus knee o’kaun

to jeff badura:

“motivated out of love for my fellow man” my ass jeff.  You spit hate because you lack the ability to comprehend, or even TRY to understand what is going on.

to the Comment #58690 by Tyler, i don’t know why all exclamation points ?? I’m illgramticus!!  its just my style, i guess ?? as far as speaking about 9/11 plots and Nazi accusations, yes I’m generalizing !! painting all the posters in the nut roots with a wide brush, i know sometimes that might not be fair,  but if a large portion the posters believe this garbage to be true, it taints the environment on this site !! keep in mind your one poster, I’m disagreeing with about 10 regularly, so some times i get you guys blurred !! putting a Swastika on Captain America’s crotch makes my point and supporting Chavez over Bush makes my point, but i was pleasantly surprised to read “all” the posts condemning the cartoon !! so maybe I’ve read many here wrong ?? as far as shooting at UN and British planes constantly during the yrs of the no fly zone I’m speaking out of recall, but its save to say it happened all the time !! regardless your nit picking again, i google it to find you prof and there too many stories to weed through it happened so much !! the spirit of the statement was that Saddam was in violation of the UN sanctions and resolutions and that is all that matters !! yes I’m being serious about not finding WMD’s !! if we didn’t find the weapons when we invaded, it doesn’t matter, because his use of them before is prof that he is able and willing to possibly use them again !!  the Middle East is a festering pile of hate !! Iran chants death to the USA at every national holiday !!! look at the riots that happened over the silly Mohammad cartoons !! sure the majority of the people are under the yolk of these hate full wackos !! but the hate full ones are the ones who are causing all the trouble there’s a war going on that’s been raging for 30 yrs, to state that the place is screwed up is not racist, and i am not a racist !! but not say the truth for PC reasons,  in this case, is threatening to our future !! for the most part the religion of Islam in my book is a religion of intolerance far worse than modern Christianity is today !! i want nothing but a better life for all people everywhere, I’m motivated out of love for my fellow man not bigoted racism or hatred, so you read me wrong on that one, i also live in my own home work hard every day, pay my bills, pay my taxes ,take care of family members ,and other life forms in the community,  so i think your description of the pimpled face dork living in his mothers basement would fall on a guy who wears a Chavez T-shirt not call himself a knee o’kaun

to jeff badura:

Why all the exclamation points jeff?  Your arguements aren’t falling on deaf ears, they just make no sense.  For example, to ‘compartmentalize’ anyone who is against the war by saying we all believe that 9/11 was some sort of GOP plot is irresponsible, and a pretty large generalization(?).  It would be naive to think that 9/11 was a blatant GOP plot.

Your comments about the UN sanctions doesn’t really hold any water either. Were saddam’s planes really shooting at planes enforcing the no-fly zone ‘every day’? Really jeff, every day?  Could you please give me a link and a timeline to support that?

You also said that the absence of WMD upon invasion was ‘immaterial’.  Are you being serious? Really?  I would think that the presence of WMD would be very relevant, since thats the reason we invaded in the first place.  But you said it was because Saddam used them all on the Kurds and Iran.  Well if thats the case, then why would colin powell go before the senate and show them pictures of suspected WMD sights?  Did Saddam use those on the Kurds and Iran?  I never heard of any attacks on the Kurds or Iran between the time that colin powell went before the senate, and the time we invaded.  Would you like to know why?  Because the intel reports were false, there were no WMD at that time, and the administration knew it.

Lastly, you made some extremely generalizing statements that were terribly offensive. You say that, “the middle east is one big pile of festering hate”, and, “the entire middle east is the problem and thats why iran is next.”  You should read your statements before you post them, jeff, because you risk exposing yourself for what you really are, a scared, insecure, racist shell of a person.  You, who attempt to chastise everyone else opposed to this war for being ‘hateful’, the hypocrasy is astounding.  The FACT is, jeff, that islamic extremists make up a miniscule fraction of the global muslim population.  It has been said that extremists, or fundamentalists, have a general disdain or hatred towards the west, and everyone in the west, but what does that say about you jeff? You’re the flip-side to that coin.  To generalize everyone in the middle east as a ‘pile of festering hate’, is offensive and racist, and it makes you exactly the the same as the islamic fundamentalists, just on the other side of the fence. 

Apologies for getting personal, but jeff, you really need to get out of your mom’s basement and go to a library, a bookstore, or how about a muslim mosque.  Sit the next one out, go get some real knowledge, and come back to the table when you’re ready to be objective.

to the Comment #58344 by tyler and the Comment #58337 by Skruff i keep repeating myself here ??? 12 yrs of UN sanctions to no avail !! 16
Comment #58393 by Jeff Badura on 3/13 at 1:30 pm says:

“resolutions to no avail !! Saddam violated almost
every accord of the 91 gulf war treaty !! Saddam was shooting at our planes enforcing the no fly zones every day !! he used the WMD we never found on both Iran and the Kurds, so to say he didn’t have them the day we invaded is immaterial !! the fact is simple there could be no peace in the middle east with Saddam in power !!! look at the big picture guys, don’t compartmentalize every thing !!! the Middle East is one big pile of festering hate and Saddam was part of that, and now he is gone !!! look forward not back !!! root for the home team, not the enemy !!! “

I really don’t know where to start.

First of all, I surely never said Saddam didn’t have WMD’s I KNOW he had them, and used them on Iran and the Kurds.  We gave them to him because he was fighting our proxy war at the time.

Second I don’t believe it’s “immaterial” that SAddam no longer had WMD’s when we invaded.  It was the Bush administration stated reason for the invasion, and the only possible legal reason for entering Iraq.  We have WMD’s would you suggest we be invaded by say Sweden \?

I reject the sports annology. Bush and his minions are NOT on my side. They didn’t invade Iraq to protect me… unlike others, I refuse to speculate on why he did this invasion… I just can see that he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about me or anyone else in Washington County Maine. 

Before you say this is a partisan comment, Clinton didn’t give a shit about us either.

Finally you failed to address my post on the subject of Israel.  They have admited WMD’s, have invaded their neighbors, and are in violation of 18 UN resolutions…. Should they be invaded also?

Comment #58005 by Amicusbriefs says “We know with absolute certainty that the government’s version is false”.?? .” 9-11 has been the linchpin for Republican military aggression, torture, suspension of habeas corpus, illegal spying on Americans and countless civil rights abuses.”  and then he wrote- “Conservatives’ disconnect from reality extends well beyond politics.” 

come on !!! you guys who believe 9/11 was some sort of GOP plot, are the ones who have a disconnect from reality !!  any conspiracy theory will do, for the far-left !! no matter how ridicules !! “not only does Bush steal elections ?? he also paned 9/11 to kill his own citizens, so that he can torture and wire tape you” ???  if you believe that? you are beyond any reason and logic !!

to the Comment #58344 by tyler and the Comment #58337 by Skruff i keep repeating myself here ??? 12 yrs of UN sanctions to no avail !! 16 resolutions to no avail !! Saddam violated almost every accord of the 91 gulf war treaty !! Saddam was shooting at our planes enforcing the no fly zones every day !! he used the WMD we never found on both Iran and the Kurds, so to say he didn’t have them the day we invaded is immaterial !! the fact is simple there could be no peace in the middle east with Saddam in power !!! look at the big picture guys, don’t compartmentalize every thing !!! the Middle East is one big pile of festering hate and Saddam was part of that, and now he is gone !!! look forward not back !!! root for the home team, not the enemy !!! is that too much to ask ??? we are war with Islamic extremists who want all of us dead, and you guys just want to blame your own government !!! the entire Middle East is the problem that’s why Iran is next !!!  9/11 was not just a criminal act by Bin Ladden and his gang !!! it was a spillover of civil war and religious warfare that’s been going on in this region for 30 yrs!!  its WW IV if we don’t do something about the whole region, we will have more 9/11’s and they will be worse !! so come guys please? think about what you say?? to your friends ?? to your colleagues?? on these post?? it ain’t really cool to dump on your own country !!  think about were we are as a nation!!  and join in for the big win!! we are at war !!! all of us whether you like it or not !! this war is for the protection of your children and there’s too (Middle East peoples)!!

and you wonder why there’s such a big divide in our political environment !! its cause progressives believe the US government is the bad guy around the world !! that is the reason for Hyperpartisanship !!!

to jeff badura:

You know how it is said that people can’t turn away from an accident or catastrophic event, that we just have to keep watching if there were a train wreck happening in front of our eyes?  Thats what reading your posts is like.  For someone who is ‘very, very knowledgable’ and has ‘studied the facts extensively’, you still didn’t present any fact in your statement.  In fact, presenting your own conclusions and opinion as fact is irresponsible and quite frankly in this case, laughable.  Your example of the guy shooting up his neighbors?  Priceless.  Only in the U.S.A. right!  Your comments on the Libby trial and the events therin don’t make any sense.  Please help me to understand you jeff, give me a link or something this mystical ‘fact’ haven where you get all your ‘knowledge’ from. 
Oh, and here’s something else to chew on while you’re digging, could you please lecture me on Saddam’s affiliation with the CIA while he was in university in Egypt?  What was up with that?  Thanks jeff, happy reading!

Comment #58167 by Jeff Badura on 3/12 at 1:36 pm says:

“...have studied the facts extensively and we had every right to go into Iraq !! 16 resolutions 12 yrs of sanctions a corrupt UN being paid off by Saddam and his refusal to allow the inspectors to do there job unfettered!!”

The Israelis have weapons of mass distruction, Have invaded neighboring countries, and are currently in violation of 18 UN resolutions. 

They also are our “enforcers” in the mid-east.

Islamic extremism wasn’t a problem in SAddam’s Iraq as he was (until invaded) a secular leader.  He had no use for the extremist islamists UNTIL he needed them.

We need both parties…..to keep each other in check…..to prevent the extremes on either side from taking over.

The current extreme Republicanism is not acceptable to moderate Republicans, but with their dominance in both houses, it was imposssible to hold back the extreme right.

I’m not so sure that there is an extreme Democrat party.  Today’s Democrats are yesterday’s Republicans.  Clinton was the best president the Republicans had in a long time.  He put through NAFTA and welfare reform, etc…. programs Daddy Bush held dear, but couldn’t put into action.

to the Comment #58129 by tyler, I’m very, very knowledgeable about the reasons for war in Iraq, Islamic extremism, the history of terrorism and 9/11!! and many posts i read here prove to me, some in these parts have no clue about the mess we are in!! as Ive mentioned before, on many posts, its impossible to give the reasons for the war on Islamic extremism in less than 4000 characters !! i have studied the facts extensively and we had every right to go into Iraq !! 16 resolutions 12 yrs of sanctions a corrupt UN being paid off by Saddam and his refusal to allow the inspectors to do there job unfettered!! (lib’s call it a rush to war?)  because we haven’t found the WMD’s, is no indictment on Bush, even though those in these parts are sure it is!! If he was the bad guy you are all calling him? why didn’t he just plant said weapons?? look!! if your neighbor shoots at the house to his right, shoots at the house to his left, kills a member of his family, and the police kick open the door and don’t find a weapon?? is he innocent?? the logic of the left is simplistic and flawed!! there could be no peace in the middle east with Saddam in power!! no, he was not to blame for 9/11 but he was a supporter of Terror!!

the “hate” i speak of, is directed at the GOP and Bush all over theses posts!! when you call the leaders of your country “Nazis” like i read here in every 4th post or so then i call that hate speech!! when you hope your country looses a war i call that “treason”!! if those things don’t apply to you? then I’m not talking about you!!

as far as Libby is concerned?? the investigation began to see who was outing an undercover agent? (if she was one? i would say shoot the leaker) since its come to light she wasn’t an undercover agent, the investigation should have been over but as in most special prosecutions (Ken Star included) it becomes a fishing expedition!! its a political hit job and he is a fall guy!! how can it be smearing when Armatage (state department) was telling the truth !! she did send her husband. then Wilson tried to lie about it as say Cheney sent him? and then Wilson lied about his findings?? Saddam was Trying to buy yellow cake he just didn’t succeed!!  so the White House (Rove and Libby) confirmed the story that Armatage Gave to Novak!! and Libby cant recall who said he said 4 yrs ago?? the whole thing is ridicules just cannon fodder for Chris Mathews and the left!! where’s all the indignation from the left for the NY Times treasonous stories of the last 3 yrs ??? 

and about the Comment #58134 by Skruff, i don’t believe its my way or the highway for Bush !!! he has shown to be flexible many occasions !! maybe not as much as you like but the partisan ship in my opinion for what ever that’s worth is not the White House’s fault !! and thank you for reading my posts

illgramaticus knee o’kaun

False-flag terror operations are well documented in world and US history. Their intent is to mislead the general populace into support for wars that serve no purpose but to enrich a handful of ultra-wealthy individuals. Disinformation exists among efforts to determine what actually took place on 9-11 and prior to it. What we do know is that the government’s version of events has changed several times, that hundreds of news stories at the time have been censored or removed from public view, that the White House aggressively resisted any investigation, that any mention of Israeli involvement or foreknowledge results in hysterical cries of anti-semitism and that equally hysterical cries of conspiracy nut come from those who seek to further enable the human rights abusers who occupy the highest levels of US and allied governments. When even a partial revelation of the real 9-11 becomes a part of everyday parlance, the neocons will be finished-regardless of their current political affiliation.

Comment #58002 by jeff Badura on 3/11 at 3:48 pm asks:

“how can a writer of this divisive and ultra-partisan site, dare to complain about the partisanship of the White House ???”

Because I, and others, although we do not agree with you, respect your right to an opinion, other than the one we hold. I read all your stuff and give it my consideration.

The white House has no such policy.  Sort-of-a MYWAYORTHEHIGHWAY mindset.

To jeff badura:

Based on your comments, i would suggest to you that you do a little more study on what you’re commenting about.  Maybe let some of the more knowledgable conservatives make their case, because your comments are full of holes.  Your blatent omission of established fact when trying to defend your beiefs is offensive.

When you say that there is ‘total ignorance on reasons for war’ (english courtesy of Borat?), have you not heard the news?  I find it hard to believe that someone with access to a computer can’t find out that THERE WERE NO WMD’S, and NO IRAQI INVOLVMENT IN 9/11, facts that have been supported by republicans and democrats alike who have reversed their stance on this illigal war.

Stop dismissing and labeling those who use logic and reason to question the treasonous acts of this administration as hateful people.  Whats hateful about holding people accountable and demanding an explanation?  Whats hateful about wanting to put an end to bloodshed?

Stop telling everyone else about the ‘essence of hypocrasy’ when you openly call for the pardoning of a man found guilty by a jury in an american court of law.  How can you pretend to believe in truth, justice, and the american way, if you believe that an individual found guilty by that very system should be pardoned without reason?  Do you even know what Libby was on trial for?

Please, for your own sake, give your eyes a good rub and open them up a little more than you’re currently capable.  I’m not telling you to hop the fence into the heathon world of us liberal traitors, just get a little knowledge before you go blogging for blood.  You’ll be taken more seriously, trust me.

Comment #58005 by Amicusbriefs says “We know with absolute certainty that the government’s version is false. The government must demonstrate that this is a crucial issue. If left unanswered, their credibility will never recover. 9-11 has been the linchpin for Republican military aggression, torture, suspension of habeas corpus, illegal spying on Americans and countless civil rights abuses.”

and then you wrote- “Conservatives’ disconnect from reality extends well beyond politics.” 

come on !!! you guys who believe 9/11 was some sort of GOP plot, are the ones who have a disconnect from reality !!

any conspiracy theory will do for the far-left !! no matter how ridicules !! not only does Bush steal elections ?? he also kills his own citizens, so that he can torture and wire tape ???  if you believe that? you are beyond any reason and logic !!

and you wonder why there’s such a big divide in our political environment !! its cause you guys are crazy !!

this is the reason for Hyperpartisanship !!! because a small minority on the fare left are clueless of the truths we face in the world !! web sites like this do the country a service by exposing your ridiculousness

illgramaticus knee o’kaun

The fear factor induced by 9-11 has diminished largely due to the efforts of the 9-11 truth movement. People have realized that their government has been engaged in a conspiracy to cover-up what actually occurred that day. The onus is not on professional and lay investigators, who are operating in a non-governmental capacity, to determine the actual chain of events. We know with absolute certainty that the government’s version is false. The government must demonstrate that this is a crucial issue. If left unanswered, their credibility will never recover. 9-11 has been the linchpin for Republican military aggression, torture, suspension of habeas corpus, illegal spying on Americans and countless civil rights abuses. Hyperpartisan conservatives have largely used 9-11 as a pretext for racial and ethnic prejudice, as well as personal attacks on those they perceive as not tough enough. This fake machismo, personified by George Bush, has lost its intended effect. Conservatives’ disconnect from reality extends well beyond politics.

how can a writer of this divisive and ultra-partisan site, dare to complain about the partisanship of the White House ??? its the essence of hypocrisy !!! look, the nation is partisan on the fringes because of abortion and because of war !!  and because of the 2000 election fiasco (were Gore tried to steal the election leaving libs feeling they were robbed ???) the post and stories you read here are filled with nothing but hate !!! hate for your government hate for your country, and total ignorance on reasons for war and the dangers we face in the world !!! you guys are blaming the messenger !!!

then the article dares to tell “me” what a good conservative should stand for ??? who are you to tell me what a conservative is ??? especially us new -conservatives also know as the much hated Neocons in theses parts !!  but ill take part and tell you guys !!  that libs should stand for tolerance !!! something your kind has been lacking in in the last decade!! (FOX News and Nevada debate)

conservatives love there country, for the most part believe in the war, for the most part think the country is in the wrong place morally (abortion )  so as long as libs or progressives or what ever you call yourself believe Bush is the biggest terrorist in the world, or that America is the evil empire or that the GOP is another name for the Nazi party “” than there will be hyper-partisanship but its not the White House’s d fault its the “nut-roots” in blog-la-land that’s too blame and all you guys need to just look in the mirror !!!

oh yea pardon Libby too

illgramaticus knee okaun

You are so right!!  Bobby did go to jail   Fall guy…  What I meant, and should have written was no elected officials went to jail…. just like now….  Scooter may be this generations Bobby Baker

Democrats investigate their own?.... Hummm

and you tell me to stop “distorting.”

When is it that Dionne will develope sufficient depth to see past recrimination or lamentating over partisanship as having much meaning whatsoever? The lack of imagination in much of Dionne’s recent analysis points directly to why it is that so much of establishment journalism is considered tripe. And people actually pay him for this kind of thinking?

John Lowell

Comment #57827 by Skruff on 3/10 at 12:15 pm

What do the camps at Indian Town Gap Pa./Fort Chaffee Ark., The bobby baker affair. The Tonkin Gulf resolution, and The Burt Lance affair have in common?

1.) All happened while Democrats controled the White House and both houses of congress. 

2.) hardly anyone remembers any of them

3.) No one went to jail, lost their job, or was impeached.

Boy Howdy… The Republicans (when their turn came) did the same thing… NOW everyone’s shocked

****To he or she who posted above:no one remembers because Dems investigate their own.What did the 109 congress investiagte?nothing the WH did,10 billions of our tax dollars missing in Iraq the Repuke controlled congress sat on their hands.And for your info Bobby Baker went to jail for his crimes.So stop distorting the truth.

“in 1967 Baker was found guilty of seven counts of theft, fraud and income tax evasions. This included accepting large sums in “campaign donations” intended to buy influence with various senators, but had kept the money for himself. He was sentenced to three years in federal prison but served only sixteen months. Baker later wrote about his experiences in the book”

Skruff, very few individuals realize why you listed Indiantown Gap and Fort Chaffee as evidence of abuses under Democratic administrations…I will let you explain why.

Vitriolic, self-righteous hyperpartisanship.  The self-righteousness (I think Dick Cheney is probably the best example) of these reactionary zealots, and the failure of the Republicans in congress who know better to do anything but enable this is genuinely disgraceful.  I hope we are able to turn out a significant number of these spineless Republicans in the next election.  I expect nothing of the sanctimonious zealots who apparently have a voter base not much different from themselves, but spineless “moderate” Republicans I fault for the leadership they helped elect and the way they cowered.  The most appalling was when Trent Lott was driven out as Senate majority leader and the Republican senators asked the White House (Karl Rove, I assume) who it wanted as majority leader, and was told to choose Bill Frist.

Democrats had a lot more backbone than their Republican counterparts, but far less than was required, especially immediately after 9/11 and carrying through the ‘02 and ‘04 elections. They did, however, have a lot more political integrity and intellectual honesty.  Would that those virtues actually mattered in national electoral politics.

What do the camps at Indian Town Gap Pa./Fort Chaffee Ark., The bobby baker affair. The Tonkin Gulf resolution, and The Burt Lance affair have in common?

1.) All happened while Democrats controled the White House and both houses of congress. 

2.) hardly anyone remembers any of them

3.) No one went to jail, lost their job, or was impeached.

Boy Howdy… The Republicans (when their turn came) did the same thing… NOW everyone’s shocked!

Fish stink when they rot, and politicians steal, lie and cheat when in power… BFS!

Republicans are stupid because they are people who look for simple-minded answers to everything.  They are twice-stupid because because it is hard to tell them anything after they have made up their minds…often, it appears, around the Seventh Grade.

The Republican party has taken over.  We’ll know for sure in 2008 when there will be no election.

Actually, the two parties took over years ago.  Nothing in our constitution provides for political parties. 

All we’ve had is Tweedle Dee or Tweedle Dum.  What a waste of a beautiful idea!

“The Bush administration “IS” a poisonous atmosphere”. I just wish someone in it would get a blow job so Congress could start the impeachment proceedings. Nothing else it does seems to matter.

Here is Eric Alterman:

Remember that the Libby story began when Novak—alone among at least six professional journalists approached by Bush officials—proved willing to reveal the identity of CIA agent Valerie Plame, wife of Bush administration critic Joseph Wilson. (Wil­son, a former diplomat, had investigated, and found wanting, administration claims that the African nation of Niger had sold uranium to Iraq, thereby undermining the administration’s case for war.)

Recall also that it was George W. Bush’s father who, speaking at CIA headquarters in 1999, said, “I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors.”[1] This view is consistent with that articulated by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, who told reporters, “Leaks put people’s lives at risk. And I think that the people in any branch of government have an obligation to manage their mouths in a way that does not put people’s lives at risk. Folks that leak and put people’s lives at risk ought to be in jail.”

Bush Sr. and Mr. Rumsfeld might get his wish with Libby—if Bush Jr. doesn’t pardon him—but in the case of the Novak feed, the reporter was handed the information by the president’s employees. As Novak would explain, “I didn’t dig it out [Plame’s identity], it was given to me ... They thought it was significant, they gave me the name and I used it.”

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/03/think_again_libby.html

Hyperpartisanship? Worse. Hyperhypocrisy, hyperpatholgy, hypercriminality, hyperdisgusting….

I think that they are all just scared of Osama bin Laden and have been making all these mistakes and stupid actions because of deeply rooted insecurity and fear of being perceived as “wimps”.

Beyond hyperpartisanship, it’s a coup d’etat.  What do we do?  We do the equivalent here in the good old USA of what the Venezuelans did a few years ago, after they woke up to find out that there’d been a CIA engineered military overthrow of President Hugo Chavez.  They took their country back. 

Peacefully,  of course, as anyone who advocates the use of violence has to be either completely deranged or a paid provacateur.  So what do we do?  Well, if this is the chosen moment, somehow, we figure it out. 
.

Kurt Vonnegut said it best back in ‘03:

I myself feel that our country, for whose Constitution I fought in a just war, might as well have been invaded by Martians and body snatchers. Sometimes I wish it had been. What has happened, though, is that it has been taken over by means of the sleaziest, low-comedy, Keystone Cops-style coup d’etat imaginable. And those now in charge of the federal government are upper-crust C-students who know no history or geography, plus not-so-closeted white supremacists, aka “Christians,” and plus, most frighteningly, psychopathic personalities, or “PPs.”

To say somebody is a PP is to make a perfectly respectable medical diagnosis, like saying he or she has appendicitis or athlete’s foot. The classic medical text on PPs is The Mask of Sanity by Dr. Hervey Cleckley. Read it! PPs are presentable, they know full well the suffering their actions may cause others, but they do not care. They cannot care because they are nuts. They have a screw loose!

And what syndrome better describes so many executives at Enron and WorldCom and on and on, who have enriched themselves while ruining their employees and investors and country, and who still feel as pure as the driven snow, no matter what anybody may say to or about them? And so many of these heartless PPs now hold big jobs in our federal government, as though they were leaders instead of sick.

What has allowed so many PPs to rise so high in corporations, and now in government, is that they are so decisive. Unlike normal people, they are never filled with doubts, for the simple reason that they cannot care what happens next. Simply can’t. Do this! Do that! Mobilize the reserves! Privatize the public schools! Attack Iraq! Cut health care! Tap everybody’s telephone! Cut taxes on the rich! Build a trillion-dollar missile shield! Fuck habeas corpus and the Sierra Club and In These Times, and kiss my ass!

http://www.inthesetimes.com/comments.php?id=38_0_4_0_C

That sums up so much, doesn’t it? They have no sense of shame.

I mean, how does one year after year lie and deny so much? All the people in the Whitehouse Administration lie and deny. All the Right Wing talks show “mediawhores” lie and deny as well as say extremely vile, hateful things.

(And Clinton, what did he do? Horror of horrors! He had “sex”! Oh my fucking god! How disgustingly horrible! And he lied about it! IMPEACH! IMPEACH! IMPEACH!)

And all the Right Wing “pundits” simply write stupid, illogical things all the time; just see The Daily Howler and The NonSequitur for some analysis.

http://dailyhowler.com/
http://thenonsequitur.com/

It is not frightening to me that a majority of the GOP act in this manner.
Much like a scorpion, which will naturally sting you, it appears that it is just naturally how the GOP behaves. You learn to expect the behavior. The leadership is mandated to continue this style of politics.

What does frighten me, beyond any measure, is that more than fifty percent (50%) of the general public (based on certain polls and election results) seems not to be materially angry about the actions of this GOP and it’s leadership.

Why?

Bravo, E.J.—very well put.

“The Bush administration has created a poisonous atmosphere that principled conservatives should deplore.” In all fairness, I don’t know that the Bush administration should be blamed for having *created* the “poisonous atmosphere”—it was well on its way to being poisoned by the Republican congress and conservative pundits years before GWB first took office—but this administration has certainly done absolutely nothing to alleviate the problem and has done a lot to exacerbate it.  It’s almost at the point by now when a liberal like me—someone whose parents drummed into her the virtues of fair play, politeness, and the importance of trying to consider the other person’s perspective—becomes convinced that the phrase “principled conservative” can’t be anything other than an oxymoron…

The Bush-Cheney administration has thoroughly discredited itself in the eyes of honorable Americans.

Yet, supporters of the Bush-Cheney gang remain, including neocons, warmongers, chicken hawks and war profiteers.

Whether the Dems can offer a reasonable alternative is yet to be seen.

Maybe Americans are ready to take a look at independent, third-party and centrist candidates. The article below kicks this idea around:

“A much-needed new path for 2008: Time for independent and third-party candidates to emerge, transcend and unite?”

By Steve Hammons
Columnist, PopulistAmerica.com  
Populist Party of America
March 5, 2007

http://www.populistamerica.com/a_much_needed_new_path_for_2008

There’re no Republican and Democrat ! Only the people of the U.S. is above all !

TREASON. IMPEACHMENT. JAIL.

lie down with hyperpartisan cheats and opportunists get up with pleas.

This isn’t about partisan suffering. It’s about societies… peoples’ suffering. Screw narcissistic parties and lobbyists that have vandalized America!

To quote the rhetoric of those who seek to misrepresent and deceive American people and the world , and then to respond using their terms of rhetoric (“bureaucratic obstacles” preventing us from reaching…goals”)is to validate them. I suggest that the goals be identified in action, rather than in debate.
The intent of the Iraq war was repeatedly put in terms of reorganizing their national oil industry as a commercial enterprise, with US based international corporations allowed ownership of what previously had been the property of Iraq in whatever form the government took.
There is no press investigation given to the most likely reason for failure to capture Osama bin Laden. Instead, the closed clique in power in America purposely lied to begin two wars, imperially invading to change their governments, and to establish permanent military bases in the area. A third is threatened.
The most likely reason for failing to capture bin Laden was and is that he and Al Quaeda are beautifully smelly red herrings dragged across the media, distracting us from the actualities: breaking of law, Constitutional articles, treaties, destroying civil liberties and rights, coprorate/government empire-building.
Using patriotism to effect these ends is now looking so close to 20th century fascism as to be indistinguishable. Hitler and others did exactly this.
Follow the actions, not the rhetoric.

I see the real problem with our two party system.  Each is concerned about its own position and image and neither cares about the welfare of the country.

These are some of the very same people who defend torture and spying on the public, denial of habeas corpus, preemptive wars. Why should the perjury trouble them?

.

Impeach/impeach/fire/fire/fire/fire/jail/jail/jail/jail/jail/mental home/work-release/fire/fire etc.

You virtually NEVER hear or see a “conservative” or a Republican who is NOT hyperpartisan. You NEVER hear or see a “conservative” commentator take their comrades to task for their extremism or logical contradictions or sheer duplicities or obvious lies and blatant distortions.

It would appear that Rush Limbaugh’s success has revealed a very dark underbelly to the old (and defunct) conservative ideology and given them permission to “act out” without consequences. And the American people have been scared into complicity.

Oh, yeah—“Conservatives Without Conscience”—rings exactly right.

Couldn’t agree more. I also wonder at adults who keep arguing that because someone else did something wrong they are allowed to do it too. My parents taught me better than that when I was 6 years old.