#62399 by Ernest Canning on 4/05 at 6:15 pm

“How did an article on whether Hillary Clinton’s calculations add up to war wind up with an endless diaglogue between Hondo, d.alon, Tao Walker and Skruff on ‘illusions of individuality?’”

If you read the progression (whole thread) you would see.... BUT to make it short, it seems that attacking other posters tends to change and move the discussion to a different level (and subject)

even shorter....we were manipulated.

It’s the nature of these threads, Ernest. When they’re fresh and new, people comment on the topic at hand. As they get older and stale, the persistent chatterers tend to reply to each other, and other people move onto something different. Just like at a party, not everyone stands in the same spot talking about the same thing.

How did an article on whether Hillary Clinton’s calculations add up to war wind up with an endless diaglogue between Hondo, d.alon, Tao Walker and Skruff on “illusions of individuality?”

Tao Walker,
Thank you, and I appreciate your purity of vision.  One aspect to your philosophy that puzzles me though (and perhaps I misunderstand), is that ALL mankind - from Neandertal to modern day man - has maintained some semblance of a heirarchical structure.  To put it simply - a cheif to every tribe.  And man is and was a communal and immitative animal by nature - there will always be the few natural leaders and many followers. Groups of people working together in support of the common good. Granted, world economics is a snowball that’s been gaining mass and momentum for some time, and will inevitably hit the bottom. But nevertheless, it seems to me that civilization is nothing more than a natural outgrowth of tribalism.

Something d.alon (#58807) might notice right away here among us free wild natural human beings is the total absence of pyramid schemes and other hierarchical contraptions of any kind....something no civilization ever known has been able even to exist (nevermind operate) without.  The civilizing process itself seems to be the archetype, in fact, for all the subordinate pecking-orders within its suffocating confines.

Another “feature” is that us Indians learned long ago the wisdom, and have ever since enjoyed the considerable benefits, of travelling light.  The incidental furnishings of our living arrangement are everywhere available, even if of somewhat different shapes and content from time-to-time and place-to-place.  So there’s no need to haul a bunch of stuff laboriously along with us as we go singing and dancing and playing on our way.  Those inclined to load-up with a lot of personal “possessions” inevitably find they’re always having to choose between the increasingly unbearable onus of “property” and the just plain pure fun of fulfilling, with integrity, our given organic function here.  The excess baggage inevitably gets jettisoned much sooner than later.

We can live this way, and live fully and well, by virtue of not being caught in the seductive illusion of “individuality.” We are persons by nature, but we know and appreciate the fact we come into life here only as members of an already up-and-running living arrangement that has not merely engendered us, but without which we aren’t a viable form of Life here at all.  The human element in this Great Hoop of Life that welcomes us in is of course but a relatively small part of the whole.....no more nor any less vital to the health of the whole than anyone and everyone of all our relations.

Life for us, as persons and as a people, as Two-leggeds among the children of our Mother Earth and SunFather, as natural born belongers-in (and -TO) the Living Universe, is growing from circle to circle....each seemingly “bigger” from one way of looking at it, but also more and more “distilled” to its essence looked at another way.

Our human shape begins as a tiny roundness, within the round belly of our mother, inside the circle of her lodge, set in the circle of all the lodges of all the mothers of her tiyoshpaye....which has in-turn a place in the circle of her band within that of her nation within that of all the nations of Turtle Island within that of all the islands of the Earth within that of SunFathers’ family of worlds within that of all the Star Families of our Great Nourishing Way Star Nation within that of the all-but innumerable living star islands “populating” this one living Universe in an Omniverse of living Universes.  Like the Old Woman told the frustrated anthropologists seeking “closure"...."Sorry, but I have to tell you that it’s Turtles all the way down.”

So the rule of fear to which all the civilized peoples are so hideously subject holds no sway here.  No one is ever “lost” or thrown-away.  All are free to do the dance-steps and hit the notes, high or low or in-between, that Life Herownself expresses through them in her own endless balancing act.

This old Indian hopes d.alon can get, from this glimpse, some idea of what s/he is missing, stuck there in that virtual world-o-hurt called the “global” civilization.  All of our domesticated brothers and sisters are welcome to rejoin us here in The Wilderness anytime at all.

HokaHey!

Skruff - I think the system I am referring to is inclusive of the one as you are thinking about.  “Not a “constant” to me… If we are all cogs in the system, why does it break down so often?  No, it is my belief that some are cogs, and some are monkey-wrenches. When one throws a monkey wrench into cogs....they break.” The system you are speaking to must be predicated upon personal preferences and expectations.  I am speaking of a universal system of creation, preservation, and dissolution, the material and immaterial, and the human condition therein. Certainly you can’t argue that we are not a cog in that system. It never breaks down, just changes.

Tao Walker - You have sparked my interest.  I am curious as to what mankind’s state of being would look and feel like in the world you envision.  You are correct that I have never lived outside of civilization, and therefore do not have the benefit of experience to draw upon for comparison.

Comment #57430 by d.alon on 3/08 at 2:35 pm claims:

“We’re all individuals every bit as much as we are communal animals Tao Walker.  Cogs in a system.  No matter what form the system takes as a result of human attitudes and philosophies, that much is constant.”

Not a “constant” to me… If we are all cogs (I wrote CONS by an accident....think it may have been freudian?)in the system, why does it break down so often?  No, it is my belief that some are cogs, and some are monkey-wrenches. When one throws a monkey wrench into cogs....they break. any union auto plant worker knows this WITHOUT a college degree. 

(I’ve always wondered, when contemplating the cog idea in the past,what this many-cogged machine does, and who it serves if we are all a part of it???)

d.alon (#57430) makes some assumptions about the nature and origins and purposes of civilization this Indian clearly doesn’t share.  S/he also makes the mistake, common among the civilized breeds, of confusing “individuals” with persons.  The former are in actual observable fact nothing but products of the civilizing process itself, while the latter do occur freely and spontaneously in Nature.  It is perfectly accurate to describe “individuals” as civilization’s cheap imitation plastic substitute for the organic persons found in Nature.

It seems a pretty safe bet, based on d.alon’s comments here, that he/she (whatever her/his “...proximity to nature...") has no actual experience at all outside the confines of civilization, and thus no knowledge, really, of what might or might not be available there....actually, HERE.  So any conclusions s/he offers about either civilization or us Indians’ free wild natural living arrangement must at best be only partially informed....and is probably grotesquely dis-informed by the instigators and wannabe beneficiaries of that captivating contraption d.alon and his/her fella and gal inmates are systematically mis-led to believe is entirely their own idea, construction, and most important project.

Other observers over the years have noticed that human beings, to be whole and healthy, must be free and wild....pretty much like every other kind of living thing here.  Domesticated humans can only exist, like those of our relatives that’ve been subjected to the same degradation by tame two-leggeds, as more-or-less diseased livestock....or “pets.” So your choice does indeed come down to one between the organic wholeness of your native humanity and an artificially contrived and partly self-inflicted condition perhaps briefly more “comfortable,” but inevitably and brutally (and quite pre-maturely) terminal....because that is after all the entire purpose and programmed fate of factory-farmed foodstuffs.  If d.alon can stay “stoic” (clear to the bitter end) in the face of that prospect, then s/he’s not as good a wo/man as he/she could be....which may be pitiful but is hardly “hate"-ful.

If d.alon has commented elsewhere and awhile back (and in a similar vein) as just plain “alon,” s/he might re-visit that exchange (appended to an article called “Patreus...Is Bagdad Burning?") for a more comprehensive look at where this old Indian is coming to you from.  Meantime, take it from one who lives here, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever “private” on the Rez, where we just can’t help but know everything there is to know about one another.  We avoid bloodshed (much of the time, anyway) by observing a scrupulous respect for each others’ persons.

“Individuals,” on the other hand, tend to be sort of invisible here, so generally gravitate to the virtual world, which is always “....just a shot away.”

HokaHey!

Tao Walker,

In this thread I’ve been labeled a liberal (Hondo) and an individualist (Tao Walker).  Slightly ironic, don’t you think?  And I would assume the liberal label stems from my expressed opposition to the policies of the current US administration, and the individualist label is a result of recognizing the existence of private property.  Or is it a result of choosing to live in closer proximity to nature than many others in the US? 

We’re all individuals every bit as much as we are communal animals Tao Walker.  Cogs in a system.  No matter what form the system takes as a result of human attitudes and philosophies, that much is constant.  Throughout history civilizations have chosen to tip the scale in one direction or another, and to varying degrees in the form of one particular governmental structure or another.  Nature, with its cures, its nourishment, its boundless creative powers, and abundant beauty, of which we are part and parcel, must be cherished and respected as it is as much a part of us all as are the noses on our faces.  But that doesn’t mean that all of humanity’s contributions to one another and their ability to do so freely (but responsibly) must be negated.  Yes, this is where we disagree my friend:  “Rights,” “privileges,” and “powers” are only artifacts of “civilization.” They don’t occur in Nature.  Neither, of course, do human “individuals.” Oh yes they do! And everything that mankind does, thinks, was and is, is in fact natural as all we are is precluded in our collective and respective existences by nature.

The fact is, the truth always lies in that thin belt in the middle between two extremities. 

Must we choose civilization or the absence thereof? No. 

Are we first individuals, or are we first a community?  Take your pick!  You’re not wrong either way, because one and the other are the same, just different poles of our species’ being. 

Regardless, don’t hate me for my stoicism.  I just play a part in the drama in which I was cast.  And sometimes I like to write to my own lines.  Unfortunately though, the director has final say because its his baby. 

And you seem so certain we are all in for certain doom.  Well, I hope you are wrong.  But in any case, all the freedom in the universe can be found within, and in death, whenever its time to part the world, I’ll go where all other once-living things go.  So you can’t worry me with your apocalyptic premonitions.  In the mean time I will make the most of the life with which I have been graced in the time that I have in this world. Oh and by the way, even you consistently recognize that private property exists.  You live on “the reservation” right?

Well, as long as d.alon (#56383) is happy doing his/her thing, all must be right with her/his own little world.  Meantime, though, millions’ve already been thrown overboard (with billions more soon to follow), which d.alon (who is definitely somewhere down that list of expendables, and probably not nearly as far down it, either, as s/he might like to believe while happily hoeing the corn) seems to concede.

The individualists’ delusions of “self-sufficiency” couldn’t be better illustrated than they are in d.alon’s latest comment here.  To indulge in them, though, one is compelled to also buy-into to the lunatic notion that any person (living or artificial) can actually “own” the land.  In fact, everybody in America can own only a revocable “right” to pay the county sheriff to protect their occupation of a designated plot, using the police power of the state, if necessary, to exclude others not welcome by the temporary taxpaying occupant.

In the actual living arrangement there is nothing whatsoever to ownership except total responsibility.  “Rights,” “privileges,” and “powers” are only artifacts of “civilization.” They don’t occur in Nature.  Neither, of course, do human “individuals.”

Most Americans today are slap-happily “crapping” in their drinking water, one way and another.  This is no doubt evidence of something to do with the condition their condition is in, but this old Indian is pretty sure it is not a testimony to anything even remotely resembling native intelligence. 

Reflexively projecting the insanity rampant in the civilized world onto our free wild natural living arrangement might give cold comfort to those too terrorized to risk escaping from their increasingly suffocating confinement, but it won’t do a thing to stop the process from reaching its immanent dead-end.  Five bucks to some homeless person is a decent gesture, maybe, but remember, your tormentors have hung that refugee out there as a warning to you that there but for the state-sponsored “privilege of property ownership” go you. 

d.alon sure got that message.  It’s not lost on most of the rest of theamericanpeople, either, who still believe they have something left to lose besides their wannabe owners.

HokaHey!

Ooooh, Hee-Haw has a long memory! Hondo hasn’t called any Canadian grandmothers (Eleanore) a “slut” since last September…

Hondo,

Didn’t you once promise to never post on truthdig again if the democrats took control of either house?

Not that we want you to go away.  You do us valuable service reminding us how hateful you christian conservatives really are...you know, like calling other forum contributers “sluts.”

Please continue to post your comments so the rest of us sane people can keep an eye on the direction of your fascist movement.

I’ve been a registered Dem for more than 20 years but won’t support Hillary because she’s still standing behind her man, anticipating that support for him will shoo her into the WH. Not from this babe. Don’t compare her with Margaret Thatcher. Mrs.  Thatcher did not have an obvious “Mr. Thatcher” working for her as a PR front man. She was intelligent, independent, and tough.

Hondo & Tao:

You both make me laugh (in a light-hearted way, of course).  Hondo...All I’m saying is that as far as we’re told, Clinton and Gore supported the invasion, and other intelligence services around the world supposedly believed Iraq had a WMD program.  Is it true?  I don’t know.  But I do know that invading Iraq had nothing to do with that.  And as far as Sadaam using weapons on us?  I don’t believe that anyone anywhere in any government agency believed that.  Who says I’m a liberal anyway?  I hold no allegiance to any party’s agenda - economically or socially.  I just try to see the light through the smoke and vote for who’s gonna do the least harm to the interests of myself and those I care about.

Tao Walker, I’m not refuting what you’re saying at all.  I’m agreeing with you, at least to the point that there is a concerted effort to enslave the majority of the world - and, in fact, in many, many ways its already been achieved.  But the fact is, that all the land is owned by someone, and no matter how much of an attitudinal change I undergo, stepping outside of the system completely will...well lets just say, I just gave a five bill to someone who did (willingly or not I don’t know).

But you are right, it certainly wouldn’t be easy!  In fact, I don’t know if roaming the range like the buffalo, crapping where I stand, and warring with the nearest tribe over land to farm is quite my cup of tea either (obviously the “neo-con equivalent mind-set” tribe would invade my peace-loving commune, rape and kill the women and enslave me and my brothers so that I would do their farming for them, lol).  I already grow all my own food, and as long as I can create in the manner of my choosing, I’m happy. 

But I certainly care about the state of the world I live in, and would like to see the most options possible available to as many people as possible so that they may fulfill their life with the work they believe is the best suited for whatever talent they choose to develop.

Hondo, I have told you several times that the Clinton administration was no better than Bush as far as “We the people” fared.  Clinton and his wife sold us out for money and power just as Bush has done.

AND of course Saddam (once) had weapons of mass destruction....we gave them to him....and turned away when he used them on his own people.

I always remind Bush critics that if we didn’t have Bush, we’d have someone doing EXACTLY the same thing, cause the people we see running the country are not the folks REALLY running things.

Puppets...the lot of them.... Bush isn’t the problem...he’s the result of a lax and lazy population.

d.alon, you are amazing! Did everybody participating in this discussion see the comment (#56142)? d.alon says that I am right about Clinton, Gore, and the rest of that administration agreeing that Sadaam had WMD and was prepared to use them against the U.S. Praise the Lord! I finally accomplished my goal! I got one liberal to see the light! My work here is done! I think I’ll go open a refreshing Leinenkugel and celebrate!

“Things....” are already “....getting way worse even faster....,” (d.alon, #56142).  And it only says, in big scary red letters, “WELDED SHUT” on those “doors” that don’t even exist anyway, except in the state-sponsored terror-stricken perceptions that are all there is trapping the domesticated peoples aboard the hell-bent express.

Granted, there is certainly no painless or easy way “....to get off the train.” It’ll take some real attitudinal changes and substantial material sacrifices.  d.alon, and others in the same (at least partly self-inflicted) predicament, still have a chance to voluntarily MAKE those sacrifices....before “things” reach their bitter end, which “....they inevitably will,” and any hapless passengers still clinging fearfully to their on-board illusions BECOME the ultimate sacrifices.

So the “solution” really is to get together with family, friends, and neighbors (where you live right now) and jump!  Odds are very few of you are so high-up in the pyramid-scheme pecking-order that you’re more than inches from the ground anyway....and “speed” is relative, as Einstein “proved” and us free wild natural human beings have known all along.

d.alon illustrates this Indian’s “point,” even in trying to refute it.  Because if all this is already so “obvious” it’d be equally so that the whole damned death-trap in which our domesticated relatives have gotten their selves caught is nothing but make-believe....a clever illusion that collapses the second you step outside its suffocating confines.  You have to actually take that step, though.  Just claiming you know it’s there simply won’t serve.  That’s why us Indians always say....

HokaHey!

Hondo,

There is no need to respond to that portion of your comments.  Its true.  The issue is larger than partisan hackery.  Hopefully you will see that the government is applying the same divide and rule strategy here at home that they are in the middle east.

Tao Walker,

My scope is not narrow.  What you “point out” is obvious and has been a work in progress for a long time.  Unfortunately, I’m not smart enough to come up with a solution to get off the train.  The doors are all welded shut.  Best I can do is help to work on the current state of affairs and hope that enough people will see through the smoke and prevent things from getting way worse even faster than they inevitably will.

I agree with Lefty. period!

When a woman doesn’t know how to zip her spouse’s pants, that woman is not suitable to run a country.

From here on the Rez the liberals and conservatives all look to be confined together “....in a fantasy world.” (Hondo #55640) Most of ‘em like to think of it as civilization, even though domestication is a lot more accurate and honest....calling-up as it does images of industrially abused livestock.

This old Indian freely acknowledges that the confinees are programmed to believe there is nothing of any real value, nor anybody worth listening to, even existing outside the artificial limits of their smothering captivity....which they are also programmed to mistake for actual organic freedom.  So their petty squabbles over incipient garbage and make-believe notions loom larger than Life Herownself, in their intentionally growth-stunted perceptions.

Meantime, their tormentors enjoy easy pickings among nearly six billion tame two-leggeds who are kept blissfully oblivious to both their own degraded condition and the shadowy presence of those others who introduced the process here ten thousand years ago and have been slap-happily exploiting its subject populations ever since.  No wonder MADness is rampant and depression epidemic among most especially those who are serving their womb-to-tomb sentences in the over-developed nation/states of the civilized virtual world.

That world is becoming everyday more irreversibly defined by the internecine idiocy its victims and perpetrators alike try to glorify and justify by calling it WAR.  It is unfortunate (Hondo and d.alon say “sad") these inmates, no matter the truly trivial differences in their made-up beliefs, have had their once fertile and free roaming human imaginations trapped and constricted along with their bodies and their minds.  Otherwise it’d be not merely possible but inevitable that they would realize at least a few of their brothers and sisters have been able to avoid capture, and so have a much more complete sense of just how much greater, than it appears from within the exploitive system, the real “big picture” actually is.

Us free wild natural human beings have been here all along, though....living proof the tormentors’ ambitions are impossible of realization on Earth.  These cosmic imbeciles themselves have come finally to see this, and so are now trying desperately to engineer some kind of escape mechanism, before their ruthless scheme self-destructs.  Of course the condition their own condition is in leaves them totally dependent on their purposely handicapped human slaves to build and launch any such vessels.

Talk about being too smart for your own good, eh?

HokaHey!

A Hillary Democratic presidential campaign will be celebrated by the fascist right, the Republicans and the war mongers.  She can’t win the liberal vote, she can’t win the election, it will be a slam dunk for whatever incompetent and vile candidate the Republicans put forward.

This continent of North America will only be saved from itself once the States assert their independence and stop paying into the national treasury which has become nothing but a slop trough for the wealthy war industrialists.

The United States is going to go the way of all oppressive colonial powers.  California, and presumably other states, cannot sustain the burden of Washington DC’s endless wars and self destructive domestic policies.

Us out of California.  Now.

Hillary Clinton is not my 1st, 2nd or 3rd choice for President.  BUT SHE’S LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF THAT P.O.S. BUSH, AND ANY OF THE CURRENT CROP OF REPUBLICAN PIMPS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT.

So much fear and loathing of Jews on this website, as evidenced by the paranoid comments about AIPAC, Israel, and all that nasty Jewish influence.

Jews, Jews, Jews.

Always a problem, never a solution.

What’s a good lefty Democrat to do?

I’m sad too, d .alon. I’m sad that you chose not to speak to the easily-verifiable facts I presented in my comment. I’m sad that you chose instead to demonize me. I’m sad that liberals are incapable of dealing with reality. I’m sad that, as of yet, I haven’t found one single liberal on this thread to respond to the fact that a former president, a former vice president, and numerous former national security advisors all believed that Sadamm had stockpiles of WMD---all before Bush became president. I’m sad that liberals live in a fantasy world.

Hondo.  Uh, me thinks thee doth protest too much.  As this recent article on Gore’s Sept. 2002 speech to the Commonwealth club of San Francisco points out.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/022507.html

Thanks to revelations about the organized program of disinformation and innuendo concerning WMDs in Iraq, Saddam’s links to Al Qaeda, and the threat to London, New York and elsewhere, what people believed in 2002/3 is now about as relevant as what theologians thought about the central position of the earth in the universe before Kepler’s proofs of the Copernican system were widely published in the early 17th century.

My 12 year old nephew engages in the game of sowing differends.  One common one is to poison the legitimacy of your interlocutor by claiming they are too young to debate the subject at hand.

“If the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast a vote [to authorize the war] or has said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from,”

This is reasonable proposition. She did not, as paraphrased by Robert Sheerer, for whom I have great respect and admiration, that if you are against the war, vote for someone else.

I’m convinced “Hondo” is Ann Coulter - incapable of intelligently debating or discussing an issue without stuffing the opponent into the narrow framework that the label in his/her head comrehends the label to be.  Sad that there are people like this.

>>Comment #54907 by Sue on 2/22 at 12:44 pm

Mike, Hillary has said her “yes” vote on the war was a mistake and she takes responsibilty for it, but she don’t feel the need to apologize for something she felt was the right thing to do at the time. That is not being weak. She’s standing her ground. Sticking by what she thought right at the time. To the contrary it shows strength and conviction for her beliefs, on her part not to fold and shy away from those who are trying their hardest to make her do so. She as much said so by telling all unhappy about her approach that there are “other choices” to choose from.
I see her not looking back, but moving forward in trying to correct a mistake made in the past. And that’s the picture we all should be concerned about no matter who the candidate.<<
Funny, but I have yet to hear Mrs. Clinton offer even a half-hearted apology for casting a vote that HAS GOTTEN PEOPLE KILLED.  The woman is not being consistent in her vote on Iraq.  Unlike Edwards and Kerry, who recognize the need to at least appear remorseful for having cast their ‘aye’ votes, Clinton insists on passing all the blame on Shrubya for deceiving Congress.  Granted, that’s exactly what he did.  But that does not excuse the ‘aye’ vote of anyone who voted to authorize war against Iraq.  There were people in Congress, both the House and the Senate, who saw the same cooked intel Clinton and the others did yet voted ‘nay.’ They knew full well they were being lied to, that the case for war was not strong at all.  For Clinton or anyone else to not take responsibility for his or her own part in a war that has resulted in so much death and destruction, even if that part came about as the result of deception by others, just is more of the same bullshit passing of the buck that Bush has been doing.  No one wants another Shrubya in the White House.  THAT is the point you keep missing.  And for Clinton to be so flippant in dismissing the concerns of people who want to know that a prospective president of the United States can actually accept responsibility for mistakes...that is another sign this person is not fit to be president.  I’m voting for Kucinich.  He at least had the sense and the conscience to vote against the resolution.

As you liberals and liberal democracts continue to shoot one another in the foot.....what have you done to end the war.  The last Congressional election was clearly a vote for ending the war and its the platform you Dems. ran on.....name one thing you have done to end the war and one thing you have done to send BUSH a message to change his policy.....YOU HAVE FAILED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND YOU LIED WHEN YOU SAID YOU WOULD END THE WAR!

You don’t have to be anti-semitic to hate the control that Zionists and Israel have over this country’s policies, candidates, media and public discourse.  Hillary and Lieberman are both in the pockets of AIPAC and they are willing to offer up American lives for Israel’s goofy interests.  Half of the Neocons are Zionists who collaborated with Israeli generals to bring about our current catastrophe.  If we get rid of the money subversion, we can get rid of all the “foreign” influences including the moonies, the Saudis, etc.

“MUST VIEW VIDEO TESTIMONY OF U.S. DR. DAHLIA WASFI EXPOSING FRAUD & MISERY OF BUSH/OLMERT/BLAIR OCCUPIED IRAQ, COVERS ALL ASPECTS.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELjgVq6GtPA

Fear and hate-mongering for profit.

Since World War II, the Military Industrial Complex has been the engine that powers the US economy. When the war ended, we could have could have changed our national priorities and invested our great wealth in programs to enhance our educational system, infrastructure and to improve the living standards for all Americans. That didn’t happen because our political leaders chose instead to protect the interests of those who own or profit from the MIC.

All government contractors profit handsomely from government contracts because they all over charge the government for products and services at prices many times more than they can in the private sector. That’s called pork and all politicians do it with little restraint or regard for oversight or national interest to glean campaign contributions and votes. Defense contractors on the other hand are better described as the “Pheasant under Glass” contractors. When it comes to “National Defense,” there are no restraints on spending, no oversight, and no penalties for outrageous corruption.

The Military Industrial Complex invented the Cold War and every war since as a means to maintain and enhance their profits in perpetuity. Both political parties conspired in this fraud, but Democrats do occasionally throw scraps to the people, which Republicans furiously oppose. Republicans are the Military Industrial Complex, with Democrats acting not as junior partners, but merely as midlevel associates.

That’s where we are now and everyone knows it.

AIPAC, JCPA, ADL, AEI, B-B, GIYUS, etc, how many lobby’s can a country/religion have? Especially in proportion to the population.

Moni: You wrote that Australia is reducing its troop committment in Iraq. That, unfortunately, is 180 degrees from the truth.

Crime Minister John Howard, ever the arse-licker to his colonial masters, is sending 70 MORE troops to the hellhole. They will be “trainers” (not the running-shoe sort), and Oz’s Diggers have so far stayed so far from anything resembling combat that they have not suffered one combat death. (One bloke did manage to shoot himself through the head skylarking with his rifle in barracks, and another died as a passenger when a plane full of Brits crashed.) Howard’s move is unpopular with the populace here, and I hope it will help sink him in the Commonwealth election scheduled this year.

As for the rest of you responding to Hondo, take my advice: DON’T BOTHER. No one could reason with the cultists who drank the poisoned Kool-Aide at Jim Jones’ camp in 1978, and no one can talk sense to a dedicated Cheney Death Cultist either.

Hondo is a disciple of Rush Limbaugh. He chants the praises of that drug-addled draft-dodger on his blog, which can be found at ChristianConservatives.blogspot.com He claims to be a Christian, but he writes posts saying that Iran should be bombed until it resembles a parking lot. Must be a follower of Genocide Jesus, who said “Bring the little children unto the grave.”

Hondo pops up on threads every few months to irritate people. I think he does it to get traffic at his blog, which never gets any comments to its puerile posts except from outraged liberals. He responds to arguments on TruthDig with the same trite phrases: “I have PROVED with FACTS that you SOCIALIST LIBERALS are WACKY and out of touch with REALITY.” Reply if you must, but you’re blowing hot air into an empty skull.

I’m of the opinion that Hillary made this statement because she believes that it will help her campaign—but I think it will backfire on her.  In order to avoid a repeat of the 2000 and 2004 elections, one party or the other needs to choose a nominee whose moderate views can potentially attract voters from the opposing party. Would Clinton have made it to the White House without the “Clinton Republicans”?  Doubtful. Despite her efforts at a hawkish, “Republican-lite” stance, Hillary is not moderate enough to attract Republican voters (many of whom continue to absolutely despise her just as much if not more than they did her husband)—and this same stance is quite likely to drive away more than a few Democratic voters who may be inclined to vote Green as a protest or possibly even to vote Republican if the nominee were truly a moderate (even though this seems unlikely). Then again, if she really wants to commit political suicide, that’s her affair.

Another advantage that I see in the Democratic Party choosing a moderate candidate is that if there is to be any hope whatsoever of healing the political divide in this country (which Bush admittedly did not start but which he has greatly exacerbated), then this will probably only be accomplished by a moderate.  Again, Hillary is not that person.  I’m not entirely certain who is (if indeed there is anyone) yet, but I know who isn’t—and Hillary is one who isn’t.

I’m glad to read so many of the posters are picking up on the fact that Hillary is bought and paid for by the warmongering Zionist over at AIPAC. As one French politician said,"How can one shitty little country (Israel)be behind so much trouble in the world today?”

Remember when Bubba was handing out pardons, one of the pardons went to a Jewish group who lived in their own enclave in upstate New York. Several of their leaders were in jail for bilking the US government of funds meant to build schools in their community.

Hillary convinced Bill to pardon these criminals in order to strenthgen her hand with the Zionist here in America and in Israel.Don’t forget about Marc Rich who also got a pardon by giving large sums to Clinton’s mobile home looking library.

My problem with Israeli lobbying groups, AIPAC and AEI, is that they are the only ones promoting war.

from comment #54691 by Doug Tarnopol:

“We can’t “shop” for a “leader;” we must organize from below to pressure the leadership (such as it is) to respond. This is possible. So, stop reading this and get out there! Waiting for a white knight is childish and lazy.” (end of quote)

I just thought that was worth re-posting. OOOOKAAAYYYY, takin’ my big nose home now. Good luck to good people, and

Peace.

Maybe i’m stupid but i’ve always gotten the impresson that Hilary is very anti-war. Be careful you guys—if she is your strongest-polling candidate don’t cut her down and wind up with a true Republican in the White House. If she’s your strongest it’s probably because she’s riding the center right now. We can take it for granted she knows how to play the game.
Where’s Al Gore? Is he going to run? How would he poll? (I confess that i like this guy)

wow a hundred and ten comments ??? libs eat there young !!! ha ha ha ha Dem’s are going to beat the hell out of each other for the next 16 months !!

illgramaticus knee o’kaun

Doug, what is it about reality that you don’t understand? Bill Clinton, the Commander-In-Chief of the United States military, and Al Gore, his Vice President, BOTH said that Iraq had WMD, that Sadaam was a threat to use them against us, and that the U.S. had a responsibility to take him out. What part of that do you not understand? Do you have a mental disorder that prevents you from understanding that very simple fact? I swear, a conversation with a liberal is like talking to a 2-year old!

Re: Comment #54870 by Hondo

Well, last I checked, lying, murder, and profiteering were not high on Jesus’ list of ethical behaviors. You may be experiencing coginitive dissonance given your professed ethical views and the policies you supported, especially if Fox was your main source of information (but the New York Times was just as bad in the run-up to the war).

But, no, not EVERYONE was wrong. With the information known at the time, if one was not naive and took being an informed citizen seriously, war with Iraq was neither necessary nor inevitable. In fact, most of the world’s people, including some of the largest demonstrations in many nation’s history, were dead set against the war, for reasons too obvious to state. That anyone was convinced by Powell’s performance at the UN is testimony to the malleability of judgment through fear and revenge. Not to mention that there was plenty of mainstream-media dissension from people who knew, like Ritter, Joe Wilson, and a host of scientists who know what aluminum tubes used in reactors look like. This, too, was in the NYT, but one had to actually read past A1 and down to the lower paragraphs.

Do yourself a favor and do a LEXIS/NEXIS search and see what you missed. It’d be instructive.

Anyway, now that you’ve lost your innocence, perhaps you can do the right thing vis-a-vis saber-rattling toward Iran.

Or you can continue trolling, and carrying water for Hillary Clinton. Exculpating her is a epiphenomenal: the real phenomenon is exculpating yourself.

Marie2 and Sylvia Barksdale Morovitz have got to be kidding; Hillary Clinton, Obama Barack, Al Gore, John Edwards would make a Good President/Vice President combination?!?
Are we asking them to run the Kennel Club or our Nation?!? If they are in charge of ‘dumb’ animals at teh local pound.........yes they are ‘excellent’ candidates; if we are asking for competent leaders to be the mouthpiece of a Nation and make decisions affecting millions......they are the last names that need be spoken.
Face it they can’t even agree with one another within their own Party. Hillary and Obama have been trash-talking each other for months......Edwards after the fiasco of 2000 virtually disappeared from the fore-front....and now he wishes to announce interest in the Presidential Race!! Please Mr. Edwards for once be true to your nature and remain the weasel in the henhouse......America doesn’t believe your lies that you have the Nation’s interests in mind.

When Hilary failed to zip Bill’s pants and unable to manage her spouse, I don’t know how she is able to manage a nation.

Bill went out of control under Hilary’s stewardship. Hilary’s mind was out of control when she casted the vote for war and
is unable to control her mind to admit the wrongdoing, I really see her as a person incapable of managing anything.

Doug Tarnopol:  Absolutely on the mark ! Chomsky is brilliant. 

The movie << Iraq in Fragments >> describes the reaction of young boys and men from the Sunni, Shia and Kurds as to how they have understood and experienced this unending war.  They ALL conclude that it has been a war in vain . . . and that they are certain that it has been fought only for the oil. The rich are profiting but the poor will only suffer more.
Even an old Kurdish man admits that it is time to put down their weapons.

Notice how Howard of Australia ridiculed Barack Obama for speculatively setting a date for withdrawal from Iraq if he were to be elected.
To this the Senator responded with “unless Howard is willing to send MORE troops from his own country to Iraq whatever “defense” Howard is offering to Bush is a moot point.’ Now paradoxicaly we are hearing of impending troop reductions among several countries including Australia, Britain and Denmark.

This morning I heard Tony Blair say that he was unaware of any intentions of attacking Iran.  As he put it IRAN is NOT Iraq.  How eloquent! Did he, however, think that Iraq WAS Afghanistan ?

Apparently we have a world-wide crisis of leadership.

From The Daily Howler: http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh021907.shtml

Has Clinton “owned up” to her “mistake?” Has she “admit[ted] past error?” For ourselves, we think it’s odd that Clinton won’t use the specific word “mistake” in describing her 10/02 vote. But in our judgment, she has owned up to her mistake—in fact, she did so long ago. Other readers might agree with that assessment—if Krugman would have the decency to tell them what Clinton has actually said.

The history: Clinton cast that awful vote in October 2002. (So did Kerry. So did Edwards.) But omigod! As early as August 2004, she had clearly rethought the vote. On August 29, she appeared on Meet the Press (where she staunchly defended Kerry and Edwards). Here’s part of what she said—well over two years ago:

RUSSERT (8/29/04): Jay Rockefeller, the vice chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee, was on this program a few weeks ago and this is what he said: “...We in Congress would not have authorized that war—we would not have authorized that war—with 75 votes if we knew what we know now.” Do you agree with him?

CLINTON: There would not have been a vote, Tim. There would never have been a vote to the Congress presented by the administration. There would have been no basis for it.

All the way back in 8/04, Clinton said there would have been “no basis” for that vote if we’d known there were no WMD. There wouldn’t even have been a vote, she told Russert (also Wolf Blitzer). Since then, she’s continued making that statement, even spelling things out for the very slow by adding the obvious corollary—she herself would have voted “no” if she’d known there were no WMD. Do you mind if we make a simple statement? In our view, Clinton did “say that she was wrong to vote for the Iraq war resolution” when she made that statement to Russert. (When she said she’d have voted the other way if she knew about the WMD.) Indeed, we were actively impressed with Clinton’s formulation; at the time, we’d been wondering why Dems weren’t offering this obvious presentation.

...

As one can tell by reading it, the Daily Howler is very good at analysing the Media and the Pundits.

She was wrong then, Hondo, as she basically has admitted.

Invading Iraq was wrong unless one adheres to the ideological view that 650,000 deaths and sheer misery across Iraq, the growth and expansion of Al Qeada and other terrorist groups, the utter contempt of the US by more and more people throughout the world, was worth it.

The U.S. invasion and occupation of Iraq was and is the worse foreign policy disaster in the history of the U.S. and can only be trumped by doing the same to Iran. It was caused by an absolute fool and supported by absolute fools.

It is utter arrogance and bigotry and ignorance to remain clutching to the absurdity that brute force is a way to foster peace.

Just try punching people in the face as you strut your way through life and just see how many people you piss off. That’s is the foreign policy of the U.S. as supported by the Christian Conservatives who believe utterly that it is entirely OKAY to reign down bombs and misery on the people of the Middle East simply and only because they are non-christian.

It is sick and it CAUSES terrorism. Only a fool does not understand that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, we need to weild a stick now and then, carrots will not always work nor would one one to use carrots all the time. But neither should one weild nothing but a stick. Apparently, a stick is all a Christian Conservartive knows how to wield. Yeah. We need to bring stoning back. That’ll fix everything.

Sue --

A pro-Iraq war candidate shouldn’t win regardless of their gender.

I am happy that Hillary Clinton has come out and stated that “If the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast a vote [to authorize the war] or has said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from,”.  Now I would not feel guilty for not voting for her in the primary election since she is a woman. I never liked her for flip flopping on major issues in the past to get elected as a senator, toe the AIPAC line just like Lieberman to get enormous funding. 

We need a president who does not make stupid decison of supporting a war that has cost a trillion dollars with more than 3000 American lives.

Hondo:

You need a vacation (long) as your posts depict same.

Here I’ll even give you a plane ticket with a beautiful, peaceful destination:

http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=27

If that fails to “clean” your brain cells.  Try the new stem cells coming to a theater near you.
nite,nite

I am saddened to see that even at this late date there are individuals like Hondo who are still taken in by the Bush administration’s WMD canard.  I had considered adding Scott Ritter’s “Iraq Confidential” to Chris Scheer’s suggested readings, the 2002 NIE and “Five Greatest Lies,” but when I read the testy response to Mr. Scheer’s respectful suggestion, I realized that Hondo is one of those individuals who goes through life within a disinformation bubble erected by the faux news at Fox--a bubble that is impervious to information that does not fit a distorted right-wing perception of reality.

You still don’t get it, Sue, do you?

<What would all of you be whinning about her if she voted “no” I wonder?>

There are DEFINING VOTES that make up a congressman or congresswoman’s tenure while in publice office. The vote to give Bush authority to invade Iraq was ONE OF THOSE DEFINING VOTES. And Hillary FAILED MISERABLY. And I don’t want to see a Democratic candidate affiliated with SUPPORT FOR BUSH’s WAR ON IRAQ to be elected President!

It is that simple. Hillary has not proven herself AT ALL in foreign affairs and her stance on the key domestic issues of the day are unknown to me. Hillary is NOT a leader and is NOT Presidential material. Neither, of course, was/is George W. Bush. But it just goes to show you that the most incompetent of public officials can be elected to the highest public office and that says more about the American electorate than anything else!

Your candidate, Obama, is also very ambitious, in case you haven’t noticed. Running for President of the most powerful country in the world at age 45? Very very ambitious. Deeply deeply ambitious.
Oh, but i see your point: Hilary is a woman.
It should be about the policies, not about who’s ‘ambitious’.
What are Hilary’s policies?
What are Obama’s policies?
Hilary is a known quantity. What the heck is Obama? Really, i would like to know, so i can choose whether to support him.

ENOUGH ALREADY, WITH THE BUSHES AND THE CLINTONS!  Let’s get a “crossover” candidate that goes against type, in the casting sense (Hagel, Webb and Smith of Oregon come to mind), and can elevate this nation above the - forgive me - Clintonian partisanship that has rebounded with the likes of “Dubya” as our hare-brained representative to the rest of the world.  ‘Nuff said?

KUCINICH: A ‘BLACKER’ CANDIDATE THAN OBAMA

Man, Robert Scheer couldn’t be more correct in his analysis of Hillary Clinton’s lawyeristic gyrations...what a phony. I can’t comprehend how so many Democrats in the rank and file think that she’s the Messiah in feminine garb and remain enamoured of this pair (I mean Hillary & Bill) as if they had been the greatest thing that we ever had in political leadership...In Europe, Latin America and otehr places they laugh at us because they see these folks as utterly compromised centrists, not much different in their allegiance to the empire’s priorities than that beneath contempt politician in Britain, Tony Bliar. It borders on the ludicrous.

In any case, I just read this eye-opening piece on this webzine, Cyrano, after being disgusted with the pirouettes of Hillary Clinton and her triangulating, disgustingly unprincipled cohorts at the DLC, and I thought for a moment that, as the media, and so many lieberals (like “lieberman, get it?) seemed to be saying, Obama represented a viable alternative—a man of principle. Boy was I wrong.  It took none other than Glen Ford, a distinguished African American journalist who currently helms the Black Agenda Report, and his colleague Bruce Dixon, all with impeccable authority on this issue, and terrific credentials as solid progressives, to set me straight about this guy and many other matters. Now, it’s good-bye Obama for me, and c’mon Kucinich.  We’re for you!

Those of my fellow readers at Truthdig may find these pieces at Cyrano’s Journal.  Here’s the link to the Kucinich piece: http://www.bestcyrano.org/bruceDixon.Kucinichblacker.htm

Also, Glen Ford recently filed a mighty important piece at the same Cyrano Journal, addressing the imposture by the GOP and the establishment in general (it’s done by both so-called parties) of putting black faces in positions of imperial power. It ought to be read by every American, starting with African Americans. Again, here’s the link for those who’d like to check it out—

http://www.bestcyrano.org/fordGlenPuttingblackFaces218 07.htm

Incidentally, my sincere thanks to the editors of Truthdig, its writers, and to these invaluable information resources for their deep devotion to truth and public service, in this case in the defense of peace and democracy—at a critical point in our history.

To Hondo,
There were plenty of people who questioned the available information during the run-up to war in Iraq.  Of course, much of the MSM and particularly Fox News were trumpeting loudly for war.  I suspect many of those who accepted the rationale at the time were shell-shocked in the aftermath of 9/11 and wanted revenge, regardless of whether it was aimed in the right direction.

It’s ironic that Cheney was among those who, in 1991, cautioned against trying to take Baghdad for reasons that proved prescient in 2003.

I can’t help but wonder how much of the Christian Right’s eagerness for a wider Middle East war was simply a desire to hasten the End Times.  And that’s without adding in the influence of AIPAC on neocon ideology.

Experience of having women as heads of state was not a very fortunate one,so far.
There was Indira Gandi who started war on Pakistan, then there was Golda Mayer with her war on Egypt followed by Bandarique of Sri-Lanka who started a sloughter which still lasts.
Now, Hillary Clinton promises, if elected, to continue this beautifull female tradition.
I don’t know about the others but Hillary shows all signs of being a costantly frustrated woman who is trying to take it on somebody.S