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 Christianists on the MarchPosted on Jan 28, 2007
By Chris Hedges Chris Hedges, who graduated from seminary at Harvard Divinity School and worked for many years as a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, warns that the Christian Right is the most dangerous mass movement in American history. After two years reporting on the movement for his new book “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America”, he writes that its engine is profound personal and economic despair caused by mounting social and economic inequities that fuel the creation of an American oligarchy. This despair, he said, has led tens of millions of Americans into the arms of demogogues who offer a world of miracles and magic, who sanctify and fuel the rage of America’s dispossessed and who plot the destruction the democratic state.
Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, told his students that when we were his age—he was then close to 80—we would all be fighting the “Christian fascists.” The warning, given 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and television evangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts toward taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global Christian empire. This call for fundamentalists and evangelicals to take political power was a radical and ominous mutation of traditional Christianity. It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible. He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He had been in Germany in 1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as the Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Adams was eventually detained and interrogated by the Gestapo, who suggested he might want to consider returning to the United States. It was a suggestion he followed. He left on a night train with framed portraits of Adolf Hitler placed over the contents of his suitcases to hide the rolls of home-movie film he had taken of the so-called German Christian Church, which was pro-Nazi, and the few individuals who defied the Nazis, including the theologians Karl Barth and Albert Schweitzer. The ruse worked when the border police lifted the tops of the suitcases, saw the portraits of the Führer and closed them up again. I watched hours of the grainy black-and-white films as he narrated in his apartment in Cambridge. Adams understood that totalitarian movements are built out of deep personal and economic despair. He warned that the flight of manufacturing jobs, the impoverishment of the American working class, the physical obliteration of communities in the vast, soulless exurbs and decaying Rust Belt, were swiftly deforming our society. The current assault on the middle class, which now lives in a world in which anything that can be put on software can be outsourced, would have terrified him. The stories that many in this movement told me over the past two years as I worked on “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America” were stories of this failure—personal, communal and often economic. This despair, Adams said, would empower dangerous dreamers—those who today bombard the airwaves with an idealistic and religious utopianism that promises, through violent apocalyptic purification, to eradicate the old, sinful world that has failed many Americans.
These Christian utopians promise to replace this internal and external emptiness with a mythical world where time stops and all problems are solved. The mounting despair rippling across the United States, one I witnessed repeatedly as I traveled the country, remains unaddressed by the Democratic Party, which has abandoned the working class, like its Republican counterpart, for massive corporate funding. The Christian right has lured tens of millions of Americans, who rightly feel abandoned and betrayed by the political system, from the reality-based world to one of magic—to fantastic visions of angels and miracles, to a childlike belief that God has a plan for them and Jesus will guide and protect them. This mythological worldview, one that has no use for science or dispassionate, honest intellectual inquiry, one that promises that the loss of jobs and health insurance does not matter, as long as you are right with Jesus, offers a lying world of consistency that addresses the emotional yearnings of desperate followers at the expense of reality. It creates a world where facts become interchangeable with opinions, where lies become true—the very essence of the totalitarian state. It includes a dark license to kill, to obliterate all those who do not conform to this vision, from Muslims in the Middle East to those at home who refuse to submit to the movement. And it conveniently empowers a rapacious oligarchy whose god is maximum profit at the expense of citizens. We now live in a nation where the top 1 percent control more wealth than the bottom 90 percent combined, where we have legalized torture and can lock up citizens without trial. Arthur Schlesinger, in “The Cycles of American History,” wrote that “the great religious ages were notable for their indifference to human rights in the contemporary sense—not only for their acquiescence in poverty, inequality and oppression, but for their enthusiastic justification of slavery, persecution, torture and genocide.”
His critique of the prominent research universities, along with the media, was no less withering. These institutions, self-absorbed, compromised by their close relationship with government and corporations, given enough of the pie to be complacent, were unwilling to deal with the fundamental moral questions and inequities of the age. They had no stomach for a battle that might cost them their prestige and comfort. He told me, I suspect half in jest, that if the Nazis took over America “60 percent of the Harvard faculty would begin their lectures with the Nazi salute.” But this too was not an abstraction. He had watched academics at the University of Heidelberg, including the philosopher Martin Heidegger, raise their arms stiffly to students before class.
Two decades later, even in the face of the growing reach of the Christian right, his prediction seems apocalyptic. And yet the powerbrokers in the Christian right have moved from the fringes of society to the floor of the House of Representatives and the Senate. Forty-five senators and 186 members of the House before the last elections earned approval ratings of 80 to100 percent from the three most influential Christian right advocacy groups—the Christian Coalition, Eagle Forum, and Family Resource Council. President Bush has handed hundreds of millions of dollars in federal aid to these groups and dismantled federal programs in science, reproductive rights and AIDS research to pay homage to the pseudo-science and quackery of the Christian right.
The radical Christian right, calling for a “Christian state”—where whole segments of American society, from gays and lesbians to liberals to immigrants to artists to intellectuals, will have no legitimacy and be reduced, at best, to second-class citizens—awaits a crisis, an economic meltdown, another catastrophic terrorist strike or a series of environmental disasters. A period of instability will permit them to push through their radical agenda, one that will be sold to a frightened American public as a return to security and law and order, as well as moral purity and prosperity. This movement—the most dangerous mass movement in American history—will not be blunted until the growing social and economic inequities that blight this nation are addressed, until tens of millions of Americans, now locked in hermetic systems of indoctrination through Christian television and radio, as well as Christian schools, are reincorporated into American society and given a future, one with hope, adequate wages, job security and generous federal and state assistance. The unchecked rape of America, which continues with the blessing of both political parties, heralds not only the empowerment of this American oligarchy but the eventual death of the democratic state and birth of American fascism. Previous item: Annie Nelson on the 'Fuel That Doesn't Kill Us' Next item: Will the Big States Please Stand Up? Elsewhere: . CommentsAre you a Truthdig member yet? Login now, or register with Truthdig. |
Washington’s Overrated ‘Old Hands’
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By morgan-lynn lamberth skeptic griggsy, March 23, 2007 at 12:12 pm #
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Skruff , right . I meant serious child abuse. My computer is my higer power . I lacked faith for awhile: I thought that my higer power had abandoned me and thought that was why I was so listless and not wanting to use it . But the power came through -hallelujah !I am saved! Once saved, always saved .
Report thisBy Skruff, March 23, 2007 at 5:32 am #
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Comment #59915 by morgan lamberth on 3/22 at 11:19 am claims:
“Child abuse -the rod- is prohibited”
Wish it were so Ms Lamberth. BUT from Blue Blue Maine to Red Red Mississippi, Children may be subjected to corporal punishment. Many from their teachers as well as their parents. The standard in Maine (for example) is that corporal punishment for discipline may not leave bruises or abrasions which last more than 10 days.
BY The Way.... The passage in the Bible allowing use of “rod” is a King James variation. The passage origionally used “shaft” the shaft was a sheep’s crook, used to lead, not to hit.
Report thisBy John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 7:54 pm #
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Basically, enlightened people are prejudiced against every pack of humans. It is not our duty to pretend that anyone is particularly worthwhile or virtuous.
Most Americans have lower middle class values because those values have become a national dogma which is constantly reinforced by the media. Lower middle class values are a direct descendant of peasant values. They are described in numerous sociology texts.
The corrupt everything that is decent in this society and they breed a climate of endless lies and dishonesty. They are one of the worst tyrannies ever devised.
Report thisBy John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 5:15 pm #
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We must tax all the manifestations of lower middle class human waste. That means the bogus blockhead churches as well.
Report thisBy morgan lamberth, March 22, 2007 at 11:19 am #
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Skruff , no ,not back then . Nowadays they use ours if they reason about morality and not go by those horrible morals of yore.Oh, many now still follow that nonsense , harming others .Certainly, the religious right does wrong , but even its members use ours iff they reason with facts, not their tastes .That is , slavery is gone pretty much .Women have more rights.There is less sexual repression. Child abuse -the rod- is prohibited .Contrary to traditionalists , we are more moral now.There has been moral progress.
Report thisBy John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 10:03 am #
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Which is worse? Mainstream religions get their strength from their character as cults. If they ever saw God, they would shoot him, her, or it on sight. On the other hand, enlightened religions are basically physical cowards. They allow the “religious” abuses to go on without picketing a single catholic church, a synagogue, or a fundamentalist church. It takes 20 suckers to support a crook, and it takes 50 lazy cowards to support both.
Report thisBy Skruff, March 22, 2007 at 6:55 am #
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Comment #59697 by morgan-lynn lamberth on 3/21 at 10:06 am
Ana right to an extent. I do however, object to their silly doctines. But most religious people most of the time act morally as we,using our humanist morality
The Spanish inquisition
The Crusades
The British hostilities against Catholic Ireland
The Puritan burning of Witches
The KKK
The Nazis (Gott Mit uns)
Jerry Falwell’s assault on a cartoon
Jim Bakers theft from old folks
and this is the short list.
Christians more moral than whom?
Report thisBy morgan-lynn lamberth, March 21, 2007 at 10:06 am #
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Ana right to an extent. I do however, object to their silly doctines. But most religious people most of the time act morally as we,using our humanist morality !
Report thisBy Ana, March 20, 2007 at 9:23 pm #
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I find no problems with the Christian (or almost any other) religion when it is kept at just that, religion. My problem (and rightly so) begins when religious beliefs become law--especially when such beliefs replace or interfere with science. I have seen that happening in this country and feel sick. It is so sad to watch our country move backwards, to see people fight to take away another’s civil rights, and all the while claiming they are doing it in the name of God. I thought we were founded on seperation of church and state, and that it was those crazy Taliban-run countries that based their laws on religion?
The most recent example of our nation’s regression can be found in the debate over the recently available HPV vaccine for women. This vaccine may prevent up to 70% of cervical cancer. Why is there any question as to making this available to every female in every state? Sadly, many religious organizations ("Christian" organizations) are lobbying against providing it b/c they feel that doing so would promote promiscuity. Perhaps they are right (though I doubt it), and yet that is just too damned bad. Can they not realize that it is only wrong to those who share similiar beliefs? It is not their right to make it into law for the rest of the country?
Again, I have no problems with the Christian religion. I have serious problems when religious beliefs start leaking into legislation, as they have so clearly begun to do already (gay marriage, stem cell research, “intelligent design”, etc). It is disgusting to have scientific fact dismissed and replaced by religious theory. (As our president has proudly done with the introduction of “intelligent design”. That may be what he believes, but who the hell is he to demand that his belief be taught to every child in America? Who is he to force the dismissal of years and years of scientific fact? ) The act of doing so gives way to a very slippery slope. Making religion into law. Hmmm...I wonder how the Taliban got started?
Report thisBy IRQ Conflict, March 14, 2007 at 5:02 am #
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Why does anybody give any credence to this liar? You would be best served to research people before taking any of his tripe to heart. He is nobody.
http://herbertsobel.blogspot.com/2005/03/open-letter-t o-chris-hedges.html
http://www.rrstar.com/localnews/your_community/rockfor d/20030520-4814.shtml
Report thisBy Skruff, March 13, 2007 at 9:56 am #
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Comment #58226 by John Hanks on 3/12 at 7:54 pm says:
“I am prejudiced against lower middle class values, but not lower middle class people. The American way of life is lower middle class with its infantile infatuation with symbols and not substance, its inability to compare and contrast, and its perpetual anger and condescension toward anyone who enjoys lively conversation, reads good books, or writes a letter to the editor.”
I don’t know what stereotypical “lower-middle-class-values” you mean. The values you suggest below might belong to William Randolph Hurst, John D Rockefeller, or any number of VAnderbildts.
My friends who live in trailers, three-decker walk-ups, and pre-built trac-homes have values as different from each-others as they are from thefolks listed above.
Some even embrace loyalty to family and friends, a desire to see their children achieve more, and a a strong work ethic.
Come on John, admit your bigotry and use “trailer-trash” & “swamp-nigger” in your posts… I understand what you are saying....even if you do not.
Report thisBy John Hanks, March 12, 2007 at 7:54 pm #
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I am prejudiced against lower middle class values, but not lower middle class people. The American way of life is lower middle class with its infantile infatuation with symbols and not substance, its inability to compare and contrast, and its perpetual anger and condescension toward anyone who enjoys lively conversation, reads good books, or writes a letter to the editor.
This is the fertile soil for every sort of monstrosity from fundamentalism to fascism to nazism and to corporate media culture. To keep lower middle class values, you have to fight every day to ignore and stay away from the facts and ideas that determine our increasingly pathetic destiny.
Report thisBy Skruff, March 12, 2007 at 11:44 am #
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Comment #57750 by John Hanks the scribe writes:
“Democracy was born of the enlightenment, not of Christianity. Christianity did contribute to the rise of individualism by emphasizing the fate of the individual soul. However the naval gazing aspect of Christianity has always made it subject to every sort of crook. Fear fuels every protection racket and especially the fear of the unknown or punishment in the hereafter. The rise of modern fundamentalism paralleled the rise of the lower middle class, which is fearful and angry at everything that is unfamiliar.”
There is no democratic country in the world today. These united states have never been a democratic country. Ben Franklin, when asked told a citizen that we had “A republic if we can keep it” No democracy would allow a party system like ours, an electorial college, or a senate system based on geography rather than a one man one vote system.
Wyoming had a population of 509,204 Vermont had a population of 621,394 Both statea have 3 electors a system which disenfranches over 100,000 Vermont citizens. That isn’t anywhere near “democracy” and it doesn’t matter how many “enlightened folks” say it is.
Second, I suppose some “lower middle class folk” are the angry zenophobic people you contend they are. I worked on the textile looms ($1.45-an-hour in 1969) in Lawrence with the most wonderful “lower-middle-class folk” They shared everything they had, they laughed, joked, cried and questioned the concept of “god” just as “the enlightened” few do on this board.
I seriously doubt that the inner-city black folks (who vote almost as a solid Democratic block) fit your classification either. Or the native folks who occasionally pray to a different diety.
No, I think your concept is repulsive and wrong. I would hope you reconsider.
Report thisBy morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 12, 2007 at 7:16 am #
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Hanks, except for the bit about the lower middle class, I do agree with you. Their egos are so tied into the supernatural or the paranormal , that they feel they would lose a friend or source of help , if they changed .It will take emotions to help them overcome their superstition .Anyway, most are just fine .But we do have to take on these Christianists, faith -healers and frauds . Bizby ,can you add anything? I applaud my fellow skeptics .
Report thisBy John Hanks, March 9, 2007 at 9:27 pm #
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Democracy was born of the enlightenment, not of Christianity. Christianity did contribute to the rise of individualism by emphasizing the fate of the individual soul. However the naval gazing aspect of Christianity has always made it subject to every sort of crook. Fear fuels every protection racket and especially the fear of the unknown or punishment in the hereafter. The rise of modern fundamentalism paralleled the rise of the lower middle class, which is fearful and angry at everything that is unfamiliar.
Report thisBy morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 9, 2007 at 3:59 pm #
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I abjure all thought control movements. I do not care for the supernatural and the paranormal, despite my schizotypy. I objurate faith healing and religious fraud. I find that most of those who engage in the supernatural and the paranormal do fine .I think that most fundamentalists would not follow the Dominionists!
Report thisBy susan 28, March 8, 2007 at 1:02 pm #
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#56754 by Moe Hare “CIA missionaries”.
Moe, the linked article goes into that in full detail - the pastor of Antipas Ministries, from whose site that article was taken, is a Vietnam vet and former intelligence pro who is also an evqangelical preacher, whose ministry is dedicated (among other things) to exposing the Dominionist movement for what it is, so he speaks from experience in both realms.
the site details the whole history of the movement from its inception to modern day, citing missionary use in political terorrism in Haiti, Latin America and elsewhere. there are literally hundreds of articles, all useful in and of themselves but because he’s a preacher all include biblical references to back up their claims that the Christian Right is an apostate (heretical) movement, and ties it directly to the Antichrist in Revelations, for those who put stock in that, as well as to debunk the Right’s claims that “Godless liberals” are the Antichrist; he clearly shows that the Abtichrist as described will emerge from the Christian church itself (the False Messiah, who will not be overtly anti-Christian but rather will masquerade as Christian and preach “global unity under Christ” - not UN secularism) when it will be corrupted by an alliance with “the Beast”, which will be a singular superpower with hegemonic military might ("who can make war with her?”, etc).
i must say that the parallel is startling. it’s disturbing enough to me as an agnostic (who was raised Catholic and had years of Bible study) but to true believers it should be downright horrifying. worth a read for everyone, but i warn it’s not for the squeamish or those who prefer to cling to the notion that “it can’t happen here”..
*sigh* it’s like watching a trainwreck in slow motion, only from *inside* the train..
Report thisBy morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 8, 2007 at 9:28 am #
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Surely, we have to have a consensus ! We should agree on the fundamentals that murder,rape,slavery and theft are wrong and that altruism is right against Ayn Rand .Our morality follows Jeremy Bentham in using the pleasure -pain principle and moralists who have adviocated the silver or golden rules. We discern what is good or bad for humans , other animals and the enviornment.In that sense , morality embraces objective values . It is provisional and debateable. It is contextual, not absolute or relative. We do have to free ourselves of presentism or ethnocentrism , but I think ours is valid for all persons at all times taking those two measures into account. I favor the Nanny State to take care of our welfare when private measures lack as they sorely do .Others can debate that . Fine, but we do so with reason and facts. I recommnend Michael Shermer’s “ The Science of Right and Wrong”, Paul Kurtz’s “Forbidden Fruit “ Michael Martin’s “Atheism , Morality and Meaning” and RIchard Robinson’s “An Atheist Values.” for atheist defenses of morality .
Report thisBy Moe Hare, March 4, 2007 at 7:35 pm #
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Susan, you forgot to mention the special CIA missionaries.
Report thisBy susan28, March 3, 2007 at 10:08 pm #
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#53928 by Skruff
“My father believes that missionaries aare sent to other countries to make them safe for capitalism”.
PAT ROBERTSON, ROBERTO D’AUBUISSON & THE DEATH SQUADS
everything you ever wanted to know about American “missionary” work but were scared sh*tless to ask.. and this article is by a group of fundamentalist evengelicals, mind you. they’ve been there and back with these people and aren’t afraid to name names. they take the whole movement apart bolt by bolt. the site is just mindblowing. even *i* was shocked and i thought i’d heard it all. brave folks.
Report thisBy John Hanks, February 17, 2007 at 5:37 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I think some of my posts have not been passed on.
The point I always try to make is the it is not our morals that are at fault for the mess we are in. Our institutions must be blamed instead. Neocons, and religionists of all sorts have launched a direct assault on our schools, government, courts, media, etc. with little understanding or resistance.
A lower middle class society that is constantly pandered by a media that exploits lower middle class values cannot stand outside of the box and see these right-wing traitors for what they are.
Report thisBy John Hanks, February 17, 2007 at 1:27 pm #
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Nazis, Neocons, Religionists, etc. all have one thing in common. They reify (sp) ideas so that self-serving abstractions (ie master race) are real. They believe that they have a right to lie, cheat, steal and even kill to further some inherently impossible agenda. They are extremely dangerous because they are criminals.
I would like to have them spending the rest of their lives in Leavenworth and on the net so people can tune in and see just how ordinary most criminals are.
Report thisBy Skruff, February 17, 2007 at 11:14 am #
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Comment #54097 by morgan lynn lamberth on 2/17 at 1:54 am
“… we have always had the moral sense,but it is a matter of developing it to be world wide in scope; for the world...”
What is “morality” and how do you define it across cultures?
What is “moral” to me, may be immoral to you. I, for an instance, do not believe in “charity” I believe is a “natural selection” way of propigating the race. I believe in “Commonwealth” over Statehood,
What’s moral? What’s not?
Don’t we have to have a consensus before we export it?
Report thisBy morgan lynn lamberth, February 17, 2007 at 1:54 am #
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I was peluccid[quite clear.]I am a college graduate whose English professors did not object to my syntax. I could read better as I was only two years better than my peers . One more point to my economic points: unions could play a more vibrant role in the new social contract. Now please everyone, get onto the subject : how do we oppose the Christianists? Would public service ads work? Christianist quotes on billboards ? It might help to have the more tolerant fundamentalists sound out that they ,too, oppose the Christianists. Most of the fundamentalists do not want the Biblical version of law .Willian, good points.And the golden rule was taught long before Yeshua .No fingers in the sky gave us morality; we have always had the moral sense,but it is a matter of developing it to be world wide in scope; for the world is our neighbor.
Report thisBy Skruff, February 16, 2007 at 3:37 pm #
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Comment #54031 by Jeff Badura on 2/16 at 1:56 pm says
“we live in a culture that has the highest standard of living in the history of mankind point blank so step back and smell the roses don’t let others filthy wealth discourage you from enjoying your relatively good existence !!”
You’re right Jeff, the conversation has gone stale. I’m glad you have a good life, and believe all others in the US share your good fortune.
About that last....You’re wrong… but I’ll never convince you!
I really wish you could see the trailer park a bit east of Machias. Little children about seven and eight play in the stacks of garbage heaped to the rear of the park. the cracked windows are stuffed with rags and the whole place stinks (especially in the winter) because an open sewer runs down next to the trailers to the lake-sized cesspool off to the side. The parents in this park often use drugs, including alcohol, and they don’t seem to have much ambition, BUT wwhat about the children? Do they deserve an existance like this because of their bad luck?
Pine Ridge in South Dakota is another place which looks (and smells) more like the third-world than here where wealth lives. But who cares about Indians?
maybe that education you plan to obtain will open your eyes.
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 16, 2007 at 1:56 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
hello all !!!
this conversation has become stale and redundant we just keep saying the same things back and forth to each other ??
i will say in regards to the article at hand i find myself in an interesting position defending Christianity for I’m usually arguing against it, religion is the scourge of mankind its been used since the beginning of civilization to suppress your fellow man !! so i understand were some get there angst toward the religious right in American but to be redundant i will say again that the christian zealots and TV Evangelist we have in American thought they might be misguided and a annoyance, they are nothing like the real religious scourge the earth faces with jihadist, the Islamic extremist believe we can either convert or die !!! they want to kill us they even want to kill themselves all for jihad and 72 virgins in paradise its a horrible predicament we are in when you factor in the nexus of WMD’s !! so i ask all you progressives out there who are so ready to condemn Christians and compare them to the evil of the Nazis (way off base ) you need to look towards the middle east to the real danger and evil that is religion of Islamic extremism !! if you took the moral issue of abortion away from Christian religious groups, they would be left with gay bashing and the believe in a magical being !! in a way abortion has given the religious right a lot of steam and ammo to gather and be politically active !!
as far as economics goes many socialists have very good PC points when they talk of equity and the such but we live in free country, free to be greedy and free to be self centered the government doesn’t have a right to impose its tyrannical rules on independent businesses as as long as there not braking laws !! companies have a right to chase the bottom line to buy goods were they are cheapest and to try to maximize there profits !! companies do not exist to supply jobs and benefit’s to there workers or country !!! companies exist to make a profit for there ownership !! its that simple !! and to be honest we have it really good here in the USA (something libs refuse to ever admit) i will be redundant again and say we live in a culture that has the highest standard of living in the history of mankind point blank so step back and smell the roses don’t let others filthy wealth discourage you from enjoying your relatively good existence !!
as far as the war on terror goes!! just because you don’t like the idea of war ( who does) doesn’t mean war isn’t necessary at time for it is !!! Bush might be a goober he might be verbally challenge but hes a good man at heart he’s trying to do what right by his country and these are dangerous times we face and his primary responsibility to the nation is to protect us and future generations to come from the dangers we face !!! not to avoid them because its politically unfavorable at the time the best presidents in our great history were men who did the hard job who weren’t always popular at the time but history barred them out to be right in the end !!
i have enjoyed our banter Anne and Eleanore (your stats are still way off) and the rest of you lost souls and i hope to read you on other posts? look for me? ill be around but as for this one I’m out of here !!! see ya !!!
- from the soapbox of, Da IllGramaticus KneeO’Kaun
Report thisBy morgan -lynn lamberth, February 16, 2007 at 9:41 am #
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I stand unchallenged.We receive outsourcing also !Our use of machinery as Einstein long ago observed makes us the top dog .If we had the European social contract , our workers wouldn’t suffer.So,I stand with those unemployed workers !Don’t fault trade with no argument ! Textile jobs benefitted workers of South Carolina against those of Massachusetts; now it is Chineses workers in textiles who benefiT. Push for a new social contract .We have less unemployment than Europe, so Europe needs to get a better employment enviornment.We certainly indeed need to press the Chinese government to give the citizens a new liberal social contract as far as they can do so, step by step . I am with Sen . Charles Schumer to get the Chinese to buy more from us. Do not forget the export workers who stand to gain from free trade. A serious discusssion is in order, not my villification .Now we must oppose the Christianists ! That is the subject at hand.How do others challenge them ? As a naturalist, I will unite with others to oppose them through civil liberties groups. We need to oppose mightily the Roushdoonies !
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 16, 2007 at 6:38 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
thanks Terry Sloth for pointing that out !! i didn’t know i was grammatically challenged???
i thought we were discussing history, politics and religious philosophy and global economies??? whats the population of Pakistan? whats the unemployment rate in the USA? whats the difference between Christian zealots and Islamic extremist’s and what is a Nazi??? that’s what we are talking about?? i thing the diction class is on another site, you might have sent your post to the wrong place?
must not have anything intelligent to say about the topics so you need to point out spelling errors???
Report thisBy Skruff, February 16, 2007 at 5:43 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Interesting that a article entitled “christianists of the march” has evolved to a discussion about wages, and profits.
My father believes that missionaries aare sent to other countries to make them safe for capitalism.
SO, maybe the discussion hasn’t “evolved” at all. maybe God, religion, and particularly xtianity have always been about money!
Report thisBy Polly Ester, February 15, 2007 at 6:46 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
This article explains why it is imperative for the U.S. to rethink their policies on economics, globalization and energy consumption:
http://www.petrodollarwarfare.com
“Revitalize the US Manufacturing Base with Energy Reconfiguration. Alan Greenspan, the former chairman of the Federal Reserve, gave Americans the peculiar impression that it does not matter where American products are made, as long as people can continue to buy them. Nothing could be further from the truth. The loss of over 3 million US manufacturing jobs since 2000 has led to decreased real income, growing personal debt, and record numbers of personal bankruptcies. A superpower that loses its manufacturing base will not be a major power for very long.
The most viable careers in the 21st century will likely revolve around the “green” job sector. The US must substantially invest in alternative/sustainable-energy technologies, and other export sectors to gradually but earnestly move the economy from a trade deficit back to a trade account surplus. This will take decades, but the imperative for large-scale domestic energy reconfiguration projects and the deployment of alternative energy would provide the US with new employment opportunities that would be safe from overseas outsourcing, while also enhancing our long-term national security.”
Report thisBy John Hanks, February 15, 2007 at 5:04 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
We have been plagued with Fundamentalists, Zionists, Moonies and other bogus religious movements almost forever. Most of them are criminally subversive and their leaders belong in Leavenworth for sedition and treason.
As long as liberals and progressives continue to insist on saving their souls and providing a good example, they will be fighting crooks with one arm tied behind their back. When dealing with this kind of lower middle class filth anger is a waste of time. Only a continuous black hatred will do.
These people are criminals. They are not moral actors. They are deaf to any human appeal.
Report thisBy Terry Sloth, February 15, 2007 at 4:51 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Morgan-Lynn and Jeff,
I think you both mentioned that you’re going back to college to improve your employment opportunities, let me suggest two college classes that will be helpful--reading comprehension and expository writing.
After reviewing your comments, it is quite clear that both of you have difficulty expressing yourselves in a literate fashion. English classes could enhance your chances of obtaining a higher position. However, nothing is guaranteed since we do live in a global, competitive, and “non-protectionist” economy, so it is very possible, that a worker in China or India will have a far superior command of the English Language—-that’s life.
Report thisBy Anne, February 15, 2007 at 3:54 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Jeff (and Morgan)
Report thisYou replied that Eleanor’s stats on poverty must’ve been way off b/c “if that were the case, it would show up at the ballot box”. You are a perfect example of why it isnt showing up in the ballot box. You earn (as Eleanor said) what, in most cities, would be on-level witht the working poor. Im sorry that you dont believe that you deserve more. Also, Eleanor said that some dont have the academic ability to attend college. When you acknowledged her assertion, you changed it to “those who DO NOT WISH TO FURTHER THEIR EDUCATION are doomed...”. You changed her point in order to make yours, which, Im sorry, weakens your arguments since you cannot counter your oppositions position unless you change it. First of all, you have a very niave perspective on the world. “If you dont like your current job, quit,go to school and earn a more prosperous living...” I believe that was your argument for those struggling at minimum wage jobs. Has it ever occured to you that it is unable for some (probably all who are in minimum wage jobs) to up and quit and go back to school? In addition, and most importantly, a great deal of people at minimum wage jobs DID go to college, DID earn a degree and DID have their jobs outsourced. Such people were earning far over minimum wage (which is necessary to support ones self and one’s family) at their previous, degree-earned job. Where will such people find new jobs at which they will be paid a comperable wage at the “starting out” level? Again, these are people who did go to college and earn a degree, only to have their career pulled out from under their feet. I have heard so many of these stories, one specifically where a college educated couple was forced to sell their wedding rings at one point just to pay the bills. I guess your advice would be to “just go back to school and find a new career”. Even if that were as easy as you make it sound, and not nearly impossible as the reality of this country makes it to be, what guarantee would they have that their NEXT career would not be outsourced?
Outsourcing, by definition, is just that. It is not made inevitable by progression, ie: the “invention” of new technology, as Jeff previously inmplied. Jobs which are made obsolite by progress (Jeff’s example of the Blacksmith and the car) actually CREATE more jobs. Outsourcing is (again, by definition) taking jobs OUT of America (for various reasons, all boiling down to money and greed) and sending them to countries so very poor that the employees there will work for a wage too low for the American worker’s survival.
This isn’t any form of progress, in fact it is regression. Jeff, you seem so apathetic to all of it w/statements such as “we might cry about not having this or that"… Jeff, in this country, “this or that” is medicine. “this or that” is food. “this or that” is health care for our children. We will continue to “cry” about not having “this or that” as you so coldly put it, until our leaders stop exporting our jobs and importing our workers.
And Jeff, congrats on going back to college. I only hope for your sake that the degree you earn doesnt get wasted on a good job that is outsourced, leaving you as an entry level Walmart employee.
PS: I believe I have refrained from any personal attacks on the character of you or any other conservatives. Your statement of us “smug” liberals reflects just the opposite. Ad hominem is not a recognized form of debate, it is instead, a sign of desperation in an argument.
By Skruff, February 15, 2007 at 12:57 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #53773 by morgan -lynn lamberth on 2/15 at 10:15 am says:
“Protectionism is nothing more than anti-competiveness”
It is hard to be civil to folks who advocate the abandonment of the American worker in favor of the nameless hords abroad.
When you speak of “competiveness” you fail to mention that workers in China are often paid in rice and live in prison cells. How can an American worker “compete” with someone who has no expenses?
So while you sell us out in the name of “social justice” maybe you should find out what type of “justice” exists where we are exporting jobs.
AND
while you are at it, you might wish to visit Lawrence Massachusetts, Patterson New Jersey, or Gary Indiana and tell the displaced workers attempting to feed their (American)children how they can cut their wages enough to compete with chinese prisoners.
Report thisBy morgan -lynn lamberth, February 15, 2007 at 10:15 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Protectionism is nothing more than anti-competiveness , the protection of some at the expense of the majority.We need to sell more and buy more abroad to up wages and buying power. That is modern history . As Dr. Paul Krugman notes , we need an industrial policy for workers .Buying from your neighbor or from Beijing is the same thing .Without government involvement , there is economuc royalism; with, there is fairness, Americanism.Pat Choate, Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs’s solutions would beggar us .Americanism- fair play for all- is the ultimate solution!Protectionism is just like saying it is your money in arguing for tax cuts when social needs arise- it just does not work !
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 15, 2007 at 9:13 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hello Eleanore
yes you are correct we do not share the same world view !! i understand your point about some aren’t ready able or willing to go to college and your right, but unfortunately in today’s hi-tech world those who do not wish to further there education are doomed to a more sparse existence than those that do !!(im going back and im an old man) we have to face facts and change with the times!! American labor has gotten really out of hand i don’t think it would ever be feasible to buy 200 dollar shoes, or the like that it would cost if things were made here in the USA!! just look at whats happening in Detroit to see the mess we are in!! the planet is getting smaller every day so globalization ans outsourcing is a fact we have to deal with and adjust too!! regardless of our world views!! and no, if the cost of the medicated food for one on my many animals was to increase 100% to 200% he would die because unfortunately i could not afford to keep him alive at those costs!! when ever possible i do buy American and if the entire country agreed to cut off all foreign trade and be protectionist than maybe i would patriotically join in but you know that will never happen!! but as i say over and over things aren’t that bad we have it pretty good so don’t fret we will all be okay in the end (economically at least)
PS not to cast this barb at you but have you ever noticed that a bi-coastal smug liberal wouldnt be caught dead in a American made car??
Report thisBy morgan lynn lamberth, February 14, 2007 at 8:42 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
I should have stated PPI[Progressive Policy Institue, arm of centrist liberal Democratic Leadership Council.] What the study there states is that our our companies and laborers beat the cheap manufactures with tools.So, it is just the old story of innovation making for fewer jobs after all, not cheap labor itself.As always , new jobs open up elsewhere.That is where the Europeans do well: they have worker protections . Did cheap Japanese and Korean goods do us in? No, we were better at producing other goods- comparative advantage or we competed well with them .Their wages have gone up ! As far as college and tech, many just cannot handle them alright. Yes, they can do better otherwise ! What societal aid do others advocate for displaced workers ?
Report thisBy Eleanore Kjellberg, February 14, 2007 at 6:44 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Jeff, it is obvious that we do not share the same world view—-yes, everyone should have the best education possible, but not everyone as the academic ability to attend college. Not everyone is capable, that’s just reality. The entire U.S. population will not attend college; those with academic limitations should not be inhibited from obtaining a good paying job.
Blue collar and manufacturing jobs, should not be arrogantly viewed as occupations not worthy of Americans, but only worthy of laborers in India, China and Indonesia. Historically these manufacturing jobs were unionized, paying excellent wages and providing good
benefits—-they are not the “service industry” positions at mega-stores that you redundantly claim are the realm of the young, who willingly accept $10.00 per hour positions with no benefits. THIS IS A LIE—-propaganda that is used by multinationals, in hopes that the American population will passively accept their exploitation.
Yes, times have changed, not to the benefit of American workers, times have changed because both Democrats and Republicans no longer represent the working-class, they only represent the “corporatocracy”–-passing NAFTA and WTO and other such legislation, obliging multinationals who incessantly lobby politicians for favors.
We are all sick of hearing that third world populations are doing jobs that Americans won’t do—-that’s another lie. Americans will take these jobs, but they want a decent wage and benefits. BTW, Jeff, thousands of white-collar computer positions are being outsourced-—it’s called off-shore outsourcing.
So even if all Americans obtain a college degree, they are economically doomed, unless legislation is enacted to protect American employment--establishing tariffs, making it no longer quite so attractive to hire third world workers.
So maybe Americans need to cut-back on their consumption, buy fewer cheap items, and purchase items manufactured by American
Report thisworkers—-Jeff, I’m sure your cat will survive; they all have nine lives. http://www.usc.edu/org/InsightBusiness/archives/spring 2005/outsourcing.htm
By John Hanks, February 14, 2007 at 4:40 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
The American people consists of three groups. There are the crooks,the suckers, and the lazy cowards. Lower middle class religions consist of crooks and suckers. The rest of the people (with authentic religion) consist of lazy cowards.
Report thisBy John Hanks, February 14, 2007 at 4:23 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Lower middle class religion reflects the values of the lower middle class. It grovels before economic and political authority (just as it once defended slavery). It makes up lies and then believes them. It despises wisdom and learning. And ultimately it resorts to force and/or fraud to get its way. Jesus rightly despises them as blockheads and phonies. They are almost totally devoid of any genuine religious, moral, or honest impulse.
Report thisBy morgan -lynn lamberth, February 14, 2007 at 12:14 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Check out the Center for Progress to see that out-sourcing is not the problem.Trade aids the poor. What we need is give the lay offs job retraining and interim incme as Europeans get.
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 14, 2007 at 11:21 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Dear Eleanor and Anne!!
hello ladies i do enjoy your banter but lets be real ??
FYI- i am lower-lower middle class my 32,000/35,000 a yr is low for the urban area, i do live in, but i don’t want to give to much info away, in case I’m looking for a job?? don’t want a hateful so called lib to blackball me when they google my name? and see I’m a proud neo-con !!! so i cant tell you guys all? but I’m no christian i told you before, i don’t go to church i don’t even believe in a judging god, i think religion is one of the biggest problems the world faces but i have to be fair too!! just because I’m no christian bible thumper doesn’t mean that Christians are on a par with the crazies in the middle east or with Nazis !! that’s simply foolish ignorant talk !!
Eleanor your stats are way off !! you statement that our country had a 30% rate of workers in the USA earning poverty wage is just wrong !!! if that was the case it would show up in the streets and at the ballot box we have a steady 11% or 13% poverty rate just google poverty and after you weed through all the third world horrible real poverty! then you might find the US numbers and its about 11 to 13 % as far as economics are concerned I’m not apologizing for corporate greed in American, but times change ,its no longer profitable for America labor to be manufacturing goods that can be sold on the world market !! we have become a white collar nation we outsource our labor to the developing world !!! that’s not going to change ladies and in the big picture that is progress for in the end it will improve the “real” poverty of the world in those countries !! walmart and the such are careers for only the handful of white collar management, the rest are entry level service jobs, and that’s just the way it is !!! i have had many bad experiences with tyrannical bosses! I’m fully aware that corporations can be mean to there employee’s, but this is a free country, if you don’t like a job !! quit !! go to school, start a new career, move to a more prosperous area of the country (i did ) we live in a free capitalist society, not a socialist workers utopia that only exists in the mind or dreamers!! every time a nation has tried Marx’s ideas it hasn’t happened as planed !! with out the sin of greed, there is no progress!! our system works !! it really does !! we might cry about not having this or that, but the things we really need we have in abundance! we are are really rich in any historical context !! we have food, water, lodging, clothing,heat, medical (no one is turned away from the emergency room or the county health care facilities, so yes, we have medical too) history, is the only fair judge of our current society, for humans are inherently dissatisfied !! we live into our early 80’s our biggest problem right now is obesity? and i think that says it all, our gluttony is our problem not the lack of goods !!! yes, the rich are getting richer,(so what) but the middle class has stayed roughly around the same, a kid getting out of high school today has to go to college and not the factory if he wants to succeed in life, but like i said times change!! so ladies, i say to both of you, go to walmart buy some flowers and smell the roses !!! living in the USA ain’t as bad as you progressives make it out to be !! (glass half full vs half empty)
PS- say a prayer for George Bush, he needs your help and support to bomb Iran !!
Report thisBy Anne, February 14, 2007 at 12:03 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hi Jeff, Long time no see,
Report thisYour response to parts of the Walmart discussion included that surely blacksmiths were unhappy with the invention of the car, ice carriers unhappy w/the invention of the refridgerator (spelling??)...and etc. These were jobs lost due to progress, industrial and technological progress
-Currently, jobs are not lost due to progress of any sort, these are jobs OUTSOURCED. (taken away to lower the wage.) These are jobs lost due to corporate GREED. Sure it may help third world countries, (though I doubt it since outsourcing exists only to pay LESS) this may help such countries, but its HURTING ours. This is sheer greed and nothing else. Those who have lost hard earned jobs are then forced to find one, many only able to do so earning minimum wage. They aren’t responsible for outsourcing, yet they pay the price. Could you support a family on $10 an hour, without insurance or sick days? Without insurance, have you any idea the cost of medications? Could you do it on a Walmart’s salary? How about $6.5 an hour, as that is the minimum wage in my home state. You know you couldnt support even yourself and your cat on that, no matter where you shopped. Why do you think minimum wage is only for teenagers? Go into Walmart for the cheaper price and take a good look at the employees. They are the reason you’re paying less. It’s there you’ll find the struggling people of this country, and they will not be as young as you think. Its a sad thing to face, but its there.
By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 13, 2007 at 4:24 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Jeff is an expert on $10.00 per hour wage earners—-Jeff’s income is about $30,000 a
Year, in most urban cities he would be considered working poor. How surprising, that someone who is exploited enjoys licking the boots of their exploiters.
Perhaps you’re involved with too many bible study groups; mythology is beginning to affect your judgment.
It’s nice to know that your cat can find a cheap meal—-but feeding your cat does not justify the exploitation of workers. CEOS are making more than 450 times the salary of an average
worker—-is that your definition of progress. If that is the case, than you in vision American workers as nothing more than third world slave laborers.
“But our capitalist system has worked very well for all of us, you live in a country with the highest standards of living ever (last 60 yrs) in the history of mankind so it must be working!!”
Jeff, you have assumed the role of apologist for multi-national corporations, who have no loyalty to any country; in fact globalization allows them to avoid taxes in the U.S. and in the country where they manufacture their junk.
“The truth of the matter is that in the ‘booming economy’ of this, the richest country on earth, 30 percent of American workers earn poverty or near-poverty wages because the minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation and we have lost millions of decent-paying manufacturing jobs. Low-wage American workers are now the lowest-paid in the industrialized world. In this nation of ‘’family values,’’ more than 20 percent of our children live in poverty.”
http://home.earthlink.net/~local1613/boom.html
Jeff—-take time off from reading the bible, and start to read non-fiction books about the economy--start with “Nickel and Dimed,” by Barbara Ehrenreich.
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 13, 2007 at 2:06 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Mr Skruff did you read the next line in that comment?? i said some are going to point out dictator’s we are dealing with to point out the supposed hypocrisy of the statement, and you did!! as i said Skruff one dictatorship one despot at a time !! some might say that dealing with China is opening them up from the inside (i don’t always agree) and that economic freedoms will bring social freedoms, the point was, that Bush had made it, for the first time in our history due to the Neo-cons, the stated policy of the USA, that we would or should no longer be placating dictators at the guise of a false security!! that had never been said so like that before !! you guys can nit pick my words, and turn them around, cut and paste them like Micheal Moore, to your liking, but the facts are still the facts!! and no one is happy about having to deal with the Saudi’s or China? but one thing at a time! Skruff look at the big picture !! would you have us do nothing? because we cant topple the government of China? so we should just give up, retreat from the world stage cause we cant change the whole planet tomorrow?? and pretend that Bush is the enemy? not despotism or Islamic extremist!! the logic of the left make no sense, its all complaint’s, some valid and some not, but zero solution !! its so cool to dump on your country?? with no solutions for a better future!! just blame the USA for everything and oppose anything the government tries to do !!! that’s the plan of the left !! and that’s why you get no real traction or respect nationally !!
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 13, 2007 at 9:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Eleanore
we are talking about service jobs! 10 bucks an hour to start for entry level service jobs not life long careers !!! yes times change things change you can either be flexible and go with the times or you go the way of the dodo bird !! outsourcing does and is uplifting the third world just look in China or India to prove my point !!!
again i will say cause you guys just cant grasp it, minimum wage is entry level pay for kids, 10 dollar an hour job is entry level pay for service jobs !! the market determines the cost and pay for product and wages !! if you are already opposed to the free market then you can always find some reason to complain, but our capitalist system has worked very well for all of us, you live in a country with the highest standards of living ever (last 60 yrs) in the history of mankind so it must be working !!! you left wing socialist are letting your ideology cloud your reason! like with most issues your lost !!! when you save 10% to 25% a week on the costs of products than that’s a pay raise too, you fail to see that !!!
FYI- at walmart medicated cat food cost 16 bucks !! at Main street pet store is 22 and they never have it in stock ??? if i had to rely on Main street my cat would die and or i would pay 33% more !! just so that our economy can stagnate !!
Report thissorry Eleanore, nothing stays the same, its called progress, I’m sure blacksmiths were not happy about the invention of the car!!! ice carriers were not happy about the invention of the refrigerator!!! progress at times comes with the loss of jobs, how may secretaries and printers have lost there jobs due to computers?? its easy to hate walmart, and home depot if you wish to hate !!! so have at it !!
By Skruff, February 13, 2007 at 8:45 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Comment #53105 by Jeff Badura on 2/12 at 9:20 am states:
“Sorry John, your point blank wrong, a neo-con is simply a “new-conservative” its from a change in our attitudes toward foreign affairs were we no longer support the tyrannical dictators of the planet”
You think?
What about China’s dictator who has recieved Most Favorable trade status from three administrations (including the current one, although they no longer call it MFN)?
What about Pakistan’s dictator who is ourr new best friend, even though his countrymen likely harbor Osama Bin Laden?
How about our cozy relationship with the House of Saud, the Kuaiti Emirate, and our former enemy in Lybia?
No, I believe the difference is now we support dictators for economic benefit, rather then political idology.
Report thisBy Eleanore Kjellberg, February 12, 2007 at 5:46 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
“second Wal-Mart does hurt Main St. yes, I will agree, but have you tired to shop on Main st ??? they have lots to be desired, and the prices are too high, and the stock is too low, and the hours are worse than banking hours !!! so Wal-Mart might not offer good health insurance ( a much bigger problem than just Wal-Mart- you can blame the retiring baby-boomer’s for sky rocketing health costs) but Wal-Mart doe save me 20 to 50 bucks a week on everything from clothing to cat food !! I know international mega corporations are frowned upon by the socialist left, but I’m sorry to say its called progress !!! the super grocery stores, the home depots, and the rest bring down costs and give much better service than Main street !!! times change, things change, you have to be flexible in the global marketplace or you fail? its that’s simple !!! it’s called capitalism !!! if your already angry at the notion of capitalism? you’re going to hate Wal-Mart, and the such, but so be it !!”
Jeff,
No wonder the Right Wing are theists, the above mentality is so politically distorted and replete with illogic thinking, that these folks need to pray for “God’s help,” because their lunacy if left unchecked, and allowed to dominate government policy will lead to our doom.
The fact that Jeff, can buy a few cheap “shmattehs” each weak, is all that is needed for him to formulate his economic assessment of multi-national corporations.
As far as Jeff is concerned, the entire U.S. can look like one giant mall inundated with super-stores, filled with cheap merchandise manufactured in China and Indonesia, sold by workers earning 10 dollars per hour and purchased by workers who are nothing more than indentured servants.
So the great plan of globalization is not to up “uplift” the workers in third world countries, it is only to make workers in the U.S. more like “wage slaves” in China, India, and Africa—-but according to Jeff that’s ok, because that’s our future and we need to be flexible.
So the next time you hear capitalists, the Christian Right, or your local politicians talk about globalization, and how it benefits the American middle-class, you will know that they are nothing more than TRAITORS who are undermining the workers of the U.S.
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 4:03 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Anne, i said popular music amongst other things, we saturate the globe with our culture and that is “one” of the handful of reasons we are hated !! all other countries measure there success on a scale were the USA on top so you get envy and hate cause were on top!! then the french and others will say “we like Americans we just don’t like Bush!!!” that’s just a line to hide their bigotry!! sure they don’t like Bush too!!!! but to be honest if we have a president that’s loved world wide and by the likes of french he wont be looking out for our best interests!!
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 1:59 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
hello again!!
sorry to be redundant but here is another “Nazi or Fascist” statement according to John H.:
the words of JFK- “Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” -John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961
those words are the words of a modern Neo-con!! that says it all, right there !! thats what a neo-con believes in !!! freedom and liberty for all!! even for you John !! freedom to call us Nazi’s !!!
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 1:42 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
orginal Neo-cons types were men like Pres. W.Wilson!! they just didn’t name them as such at the times, he was pro-active, he started the league of nations, and tried to promote democracy worldwide after the Great War (WW I)with his 14 points? well ahead of his time, http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/wwi/1918/14points.htmand a Neo-con type of statement from Bill Clinton, while signing the “Iraq Liberation Act” on October 31, 1998, Clinton said: “It should be the policy of the US to seek to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace the regime “. This “law” was ratified by both houses of congress, in, I will say again because it begs repeating, 1998!
Report thisso much for “Bush’s” war of agression??
sounds like a fascist’s and a Nazi’s to me ??? come on John H. you really should think before you write such slanderous garbage!!
By morgan-lynn lamberth, February 12, 2007 at 11:14 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Even Orthodox Jewry do not call for stoning and some other commandments to enforce themselves !One hopes the author and Harris will make in roads on getting others warned about these evil-minded folk. As Sydney Hook warned against the communists, it is the perversion of tolerance to let such people get their way !Their god ,Yahweh, is such an evil god !
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 10:32 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Anne
when Bush made the comment the rich being about his base, he was joking !! his real base is the grass roots pro-life christian right that are demonized here !! yes, the business rich vote for him, so do the neo-con “intellectuals"(ha ha ha )!!
second walmart does hurt Main st. yes, i will agree, but have you tired to shop on Main st ??? they have lots to be desired, and the prices are too high, and the stock is too low, and the hours are worse than banking hours !!! so walmart might not offer good health insurance ( a much bigger problem than just walmart- you can blame the retiring baby-boomer’s for sky rocketing health costs) but walmart doe save me 20 to 50 bucks a week on everything from clothing to cat food !! I know international mega corporations are frowned upon by the socialist left, but I’m sorry to say its called progress !!! the super grocery stores, the home depots, and the rest bring down cost’s and give much better service than Main street !!! times change, things change, you have to be flexible in the global marketplace or you fail? its that’s simple !!! its called capitalism !!! if your already angry at the notion of capitalism? your going to hate walmart, and the such, but so be it !!
as far as being afraid got Bush elected? i beg to differ !!! its facing facts !! we have enemy’s that want to kill us, stated in there own words!! because of our way of life, and understanding that, is not living in fear!! its addressing the biggest problem of our time (the war against Islamic extremism)!! sticking your head in the sand, and ignoring this grave problem, because it doesn’t fit you political outlook, is plain ignorant! and i mean no disrespect, but that’s what it is !! 9/11 is not theory or fear mongering it is historical fact!!
PS - i sleep very well at night, knowing I’m doing all i can (very little in the big picture) to preserve democracy for you and your friends so your children can live in this wonderful culture long after we are gone !!! we owe that to them, and those that gave there lives before, so we could have it so good !!! freedom is not always free, its paid for by the blood of our dead hero’s !! deposing Saddam and soon to be the Mullahs of Iran and changing the hate filled middle east for the good of mankind puts necessary blood on all our hands!! so i dont lose sleep!! doing nothing like the left wishes, is what caused 9/11!! and that’s were you need to look for blame !! the PC wonder land left: who’s political views are come by their wishful thoughts, instead of by the hard ugly truth of reality !!
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 9:20 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
john hanks- Neoconism: A subversive political movement that believes that a Nazi or Fascist end justifies the means which include subversion and terrorism.
Sorry John, your point blank wrong, a neo-con is simply a “new-conservative” its from a change in our attitudes toward foreign affairs were we no longer support the tyrannical dictators of the planet, in the guise of a false security !!! I know many are going to point out some despot we are buying oil from, or we are not apposing at the minute to point out the hypocrisy in my statements, but keep in mind things take time, one country one despot at a time!! Neo–cons believe in the spreading of freedom, spreading pluralistic democracies as our stated national policy!!
see- http://www.newamericancentury.org/ to get the meaning of a neo-con !!
how you can equate that with fascism is beyond me, for fascism loathes freedom ! ??? again you make my case in my previous arguments !!
Report thisBy c, February 11, 2007 at 4:44 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
A side note on the “Jesus Camp” documentary. You can view it, full length on “Youtube.com”. Again, the fundie children in this movie are indoctrinated to commit their loyalty to a “war” against non-christians. One boy is interview who says, “When I walk down the street and run into a non-christian, I know it immediatly; it makes me feel icky, yuckie...” These children are taught to be repulsed at non-christians! Does this worry any of you, because it creeps me out! They take one look at people, as if they are street smart, and sit in judgement others; no wonder they feel “icky”! Imagine having to judge everyone you meet on the basis of their religious affiliation.
Report thisBy Jeff Badura, February 11, 2007 at 4:24 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Patryk you said “I attacked your spelling solely because this is an argument where intelligence and sanity (something spelling can indeed represent), are in question.... . I see my prior argument as on-topic, and not a random attack of character as you defended it to be.
Report thiswell I’m bringing this up again not to scold you for pointing out the evident facts, of my bad grammar !!! but to argue about your observations ??? in this context what is most important to have, is a sound knowledge of history, geography, and religious philosophies !!! we are talking geo-politics and religion !!! when i hear comparisons to the republicans and Islamic extremists ??? or the christian right and Nazism ??? it it very clear that those making such comments are either just casting nonsensical barbs for the sake of name calling or they have no real clue about the topics we are discussing !! that’s were you should spend your time judging intelligence and sanity!! as i do every other 1st Tue in Nov. history history history people if your ignorant of were we came from, how can decide on were we are going!! if you have no real knowledge of geography and the worlds government and history then you tend to operate on emotion only instead of logic and your political view are such !!! I’m reading all the articles on the site and its clear the writers know how to spell but most leaving comments don’t know what there talking about !! and I’m not just talking about this post, all of them, on this site print a not so pretty picture for the lefts point of view !!! Hench my comment of days ago saying reading this stuff gives me strength !! and amusement !!!
By Anne, February 10, 2007 at 10:56 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hey Jeff--
I don’t think America is hated for exporting their rap music, though if we were, I’d understand. I think you are right in the fact that being hated (out of envy) is what you get for being on top, and that we’ve been hated by many in the middle east long before 9/11. But by starting and leading a war with such contumaciousness against a country that did not attack us, we have estranged ourselves from our most valuable resource: our allies, the U.N. And, as everyone can plainly see, his war has breathed new life into(and new reasons for) hating America. Bush has succeeded in making us more vulnerable by diverting our attention, our military and our money to Iraq when more immenent threats exist. We will have no support when we really need it, and at this rate, we really will. I know the Bush campaign wouldnt succeed without their fear tactics, t