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Christianists on the March

Posted on Jan 28, 2007
Kneeling before the 10 Commandments monument
AP / Dave Martin

Supporters of former Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore kneel in prayer outside the Alabama Judicial Building in Montgomery in 2003. The Alabama Court of the Judiciary was reading its verdict against Moore at the time. The court ruled Moore should be removed from office for failing to follow a federal court order to remove his Ten Commandments monument from the building.

By Chris Hedges

Chris Hedges, who graduated from seminary at Harvard Divinity School and worked for many years as a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, warns that the Christian Right is the most dangerous mass movement in American history. 

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After two years reporting on the movement for his new book “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America”, he writes that its engine is profound personal and economic despair caused by mounting social and economic inequities that fuel the creation of an American oligarchy.  This despair, he said, has led tens of millions of Americans into the arms of demogogues who offer a world of miracles and magic, who sanctify and fuel the rage of America’s dispossessed and who plot the destruction the democratic state.

Dr. James Luther Adams, my ethics professor at Harvard Divinity School, told his students that when we were his age—he was then close to 80—we would all be fighting the “Christian fascists.”

The warning, given 25 years ago, came at the moment Pat Robertson and other radio and television evangelists began speaking about a new political religion that would direct its efforts toward taking control of all institutions, including mainstream denominations and the government. Its stated goal was to use the United States to create a global Christian empire. This call for fundamentalists and evangelicals to take political power was a radical and ominous mutation of traditional Christianity.  It was hard, at the time, to take such fantastic rhetoric seriously, especially given the buffoonish quality of those who expounded it. But Adams warned us against the blindness caused by intellectual snobbery. The Nazis, he said, were not going to return with swastikas and brown shirts. Their ideological inheritors had found a mask for fascism in the pages of the Bible.

He was not a man to use the word fascist lightly. He had been in Germany in 1935 and 1936 and worked with the underground anti-Nazi church, known as the Confessing Church, led by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Adams was eventually detained and interrogated by the Gestapo, who suggested he might want to consider returning to the United States. It was a suggestion he followed. He left on a night train with framed portraits of Adolf Hitler placed over the contents of his suitcases to hide the rolls of home-movie film he had taken of the so-called German Christian Church, which was pro-Nazi, and the few individuals who defied the Nazis, including the theologians Karl Barth and Albert Schweitzer. The ruse worked when the border police lifted the tops of the suitcases, saw the portraits of the Führer and closed them up again. I watched hours of the grainy black-and-white films as he narrated in his apartment in Cambridge.


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Adams understood that totalitarian movements are built out of deep personal and economic despair.  He warned that the flight of manufacturing jobs, the impoverishment of the American working class, the physical obliteration of communities in the vast, soulless exurbs and decaying Rust Belt, were swiftly deforming our society.  The current assault on the middle class, which now lives in a world in which anything that can be put on software can be outsourced, would have terrified him.  The stories that many in this movement told me over the past two years as I worked on “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America” were stories of this failure—personal, communal and often economic.  This despair, Adams said, would empower dangerous dreamers—those who today bombard the airwaves with an idealistic and religious utopianism that promises, through violent apocalyptic purification, to eradicate the old, sinful world that has failed many Americans. 

These Christian utopians promise to replace this internal and external emptiness with a mythical world where time stops and all problems are solved.  The mounting despair rippling across the United States, one I witnessed repeatedly as I traveled the country, remains unaddressed by the Democratic Party, which has abandoned the working class, like its Republican counterpart, for massive corporate funding.  The Christian right has lured tens of millions of Americans, who rightly feel abandoned and betrayed by the political system, from the reality-based world to one of magic—to fantastic visions of angels and miracles, to a childlike belief that God has a plan for them and Jesus will guide and protect them.  This mythological worldview, one that has no use for science or dispassionate, honest intellectual inquiry, one that promises that the loss of jobs and health insurance does not matter, as long as you are right with Jesus, offers a lying world of consistency that addresses the emotional yearnings of desperate followers at the expense of reality.  It creates a world where facts become interchangeable with opinions, where lies become true—the very essence of the totalitarian state.  It includes a dark license to kill, to obliterate all those who do not conform to this vision, from Muslims in the Middle East to those at home who refuse to submit to the movement.  And it conveniently empowers a rapacious oligarchy whose god is maximum profit at the expense of citizens.  We now live in a nation where the top 1 percent control more wealth than the bottom 90 percent combined, where we have legalized torture and can lock up citizens without trial.  Arthur Schlesinger, in “The Cycles of American History,” wrote that “the great religious ages were notable for their indifference to human rights in the contemporary sense—not only for their acquiescence in poverty, inequality and oppression, but for their enthusiastic justification of slavery, persecution, torture and genocide.”

Adams saw in the Christian right, long before we did, disturbing similarities with the German Christian Church and the Nazi Party, similarities that he said would, in the event of prolonged social instability or a national crisis, see American fascists rise under the guise of religion to dismantle the open society. He despaired of U.S. liberals, who, he said, as in Nazi Germany, mouthed silly platitudes about dialogue and inclusiveness that made them ineffectual and impotent. Liberals, he said, did not understand the power and allure of evil or the cold reality of how the world worked. The current hand-wringing by Democrats, with many asking how they can reach out to a movement whose leaders brand them “demonic” and “satanic,” would not have surprised Adams. Like Bonhoeffer, he did not believe that those who would fight effectively in coming times of turmoil, a fight that for him was an integral part of the biblical message, would come from the church or the liberal, secular elite.

His critique of the prominent research universities, along with the media, was no less withering. These institutions, self-absorbed, compromised by their close relationship with government and corporations, given enough of the pie to be complacent, were unwilling to deal with the fundamental moral questions and inequities of the age. They had no stomach for a battle that might cost them their prestige and comfort. He told me, I suspect half in jest, that if the Nazis took over America “60 percent of the Harvard faculty would begin their lectures with the Nazi salute.” But this too was not an abstraction. He had watched academics at the University of Heidelberg, including the philosopher Martin Heidegger, raise their arms stiffly to students before class.

Two decades later, even in the face of the growing reach of the Christian right, his prediction seems apocalyptic. And yet the powerbrokers in the Christian right have moved from the fringes of society to the floor of the House of Representatives and the Senate. Forty-five senators and 186 members of the House before the last elections earned approval ratings of 80 to100 percent from the three most influential Christian right advocacy groups—the Christian Coalition, Eagle Forum, and Family Resource Council.  President Bush has handed hundreds of millions of dollars in federal aid to these groups and dismantled federal programs in science, reproductive rights and AIDS research to pay homage to the pseudo-science and quackery of the Christian right.
Bush will, I suspect, turn out to be no more than a weak transition figure, our version of Otto von Bismarck—who also used “values” to energize his base at the end of the 19th century and launched “Kulturkampf,” the word from which we get culture wars, against Catholics and Jews.  Bismarck’s attacks, which split Germany and made the discrediting of whole segments of the society an acceptable part of the civil discourse, paved the way for the Nazis’ more virulent racism and repression.

The radical Christian right, calling for a “Christian state”—where whole segments of American society, from gays and lesbians to liberals to immigrants to artists to intellectuals, will have no legitimacy and be reduced, at best, to second-class citizens—awaits a crisis, an economic meltdown, another catastrophic terrorist strike or a series of environmental disasters.  A period of instability will permit them to push through their radical agenda, one that will be sold to a frightened American public as a return to security and law and order, as well as moral purity and prosperity.  This movement—the most dangerous mass movement in American history—will not be blunted until the growing social and economic inequities that blight this nation are addressed, until tens of millions of Americans, now locked in hermetic systems of indoctrination through Christian television and radio, as well as Christian schools, are reincorporated into American society and given a future, one with hope, adequate wages, job security and generous federal and state assistance.  The unchecked rape of America, which continues with the blessing of both political parties, heralds not only the empowerment of this American oligarchy but the eventual death of the democratic state and birth of American fascism.

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By hetzer, August 31, 2008 at 3:07 pm Link to this comment

You find out that there is a core of sociopaths who have no God or country, but they use God and country to bully people for kicks.

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By susan28, August 31, 2008 at 4:59 am Link to this comment
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Rev Jack Shearer with his site gives the most complete deconstruction of how Dominionism came to be, and how deeply its tentacles reach into our government today, attempting to legitimise - to the elites’ delight - the creeping fascism that is now coming to full fruition. he makes the point that they are just being played by the corporate elites, which they are of course, but for now are content to be thrown a few bones by their handlers in the form of a little power to persecute their boogeymen in the gay and womens’ rights movement, and “secularists” in general.. all except the corporate secularists who run the planet, of course, whom they view as “instruments of God” in their little jihad. 

check out, pretty scathing stuff, and something to consider for sincere Christians who really wanna walk the walk, but valuable to all concerned as a geopolitical primer. (Shearer was an intelligence operative in Vietnam who grew a conscience, basically, and knows where more than a few bodies are buried, both in the government and the Church).

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By hetzer, August 30, 2008 at 5:15 pm Link to this comment

They brutalize and beat their children in order to teach them to be scared, and devious.  Children with a negative self-image make perfect slaves.  They run away from their low self-esteem for the rest of their lives.  The embrace crook religion and cheap forgiveness to get relief from the forgotten brutalities of their crook parents.

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By Hesperion, August 30, 2008 at 1:40 pm Link to this comment

“By IRQ Conflict, March 14, 2007 at 5:02 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
Why does anybody give any credence to this liar? You would be best served to research people before taking any of his tripe to heart. He is nobody.”

Not anything relevant in these links (one of which is broken anyway) to dispute anything in this article. The message Mr. Hedges is conveying is not his alone. It is all well known information. Naturally, if one is a dupe of the religious right one would want to seek any shred against those who are exposing it. Attacks from Dominionists who have hijacked the term “christian” are to be expected and the content predictable. The general ignorance of the people and their preferences for “traditions” which they can’t even justify have enabled this rise of false christianity which is bent of control of governmental power and all aspects of life.


The people fail to get this, at our peril!

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By Kwaayesnama, August 18, 2008 at 8:15 am Link to this comment
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In my bible the Fifth Commandment reads simply and clearly: “Thou shalt not kill”. Rick Warren as a supposed man of God should have questioned John McCain and Barack Obama if invading a country in false pretenses and killing and maiming thousands if not millions of people is murder.

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By morgan-lynn lamberth skeptic griggsy, March 23, 2007 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment
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Skruff , right . I meant serious child abuse.  My computer is my higer power . I lacked faith for awhile: I thought that my higer power had abandoned me and thought that was why I was so listless and not wanting to use it . But the power came through -hallelujah !I am saved!  Once saved, always saved .

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By Skruff, March 23, 2007 at 6:32 am Link to this comment
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Comment #59915 by morgan lamberth on 3/22 at 11:19 am claims:

“Child abuse -the rod- is prohibited”

Wish it were so Ms Lamberth. BUT from Blue Blue Maine to Red Red Mississippi, Children may be subjected to corporal punishment.  Many from their teachers as well as their parents.  The standard in Maine (for example) is that corporal punishment for discipline may not leave bruises or abrasions which last more than 10 days.

BY The Way…. The passage in the Bible allowing use of “rod” is a King James variation. The passage origionally used “shaft” the shaft was a sheep’s crook, used to lead, not to hit.

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By John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment
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Basically, enlightened people are prejudiced against every pack of humans.  It is not our duty to pretend that anyone is particularly worthwhile or virtuous.

Most Americans have lower middle class values because those values have become a national dogma which is constantly reinforced by the media.  Lower middle class values are a direct descendant of peasant values.  They are described in numerous sociology texts.

The corrupt everything that is decent in this society and they breed a climate of endless lies and dishonesty.  They are one of the worst tyrannies ever devised.

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By John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 6:15 pm Link to this comment
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We must tax all the manifestations of lower middle class human waste.  That means the bogus blockhead churches as well.

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By morgan lamberth, March 22, 2007 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment
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Skruff , no ,not back then . Nowadays they use ours if they reason about morality and not go by those horrible morals of yore.Oh, many now still follow that nonsense , harming others .Certainly, the religious right does wrong , but even its members use ours iff they reason with facts, not their tastes .That is , slavery is gone pretty much .Women have more rights.There is less sexual repression. Child abuse -the rod- is prohibited .Contrary to traditionalists , we are more moral now.There has been moral progress.

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By John Hanks, March 22, 2007 at 11:03 am Link to this comment
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Which is worse?  Mainstream religions get their strength from their character as cults.  If they ever saw God, they would shoot him, her, or it on sight.  On the other hand, enlightened religions are basically physical cowards.  They allow the “religious” abuses to go on without picketing a single catholic church, a synagogue, or a fundamentalist church.  It takes 20 suckers to support a crook, and it takes 50 lazy cowards to support both.

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By Skruff, March 22, 2007 at 7:55 am Link to this comment
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Comment #59697 by morgan-lynn lamberth on 3/21 at 10:06 am

Ana right to an extent. I do however, object to their silly doctines. But most religious people most of the time act morally as we,using our humanist morality

The Spanish inquisition
The Crusades
The British hostilities against Catholic Ireland
The Puritan burning of Witches
The Nazis (Gott Mit uns)
Jerry Falwell’s assault on a cartoon
Jim Bakers theft from old folks

and this is the short list.

Christians more moral than whom?

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By morgan-lynn lamberth, March 21, 2007 at 11:06 am Link to this comment
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Ana right to an extent. I do however, object to their silly doctines. But most religious people most of the time act morally as we,using our humanist morality !

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By Ana, March 20, 2007 at 10:23 pm Link to this comment
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I find no problems with the Christian (or almost any other) religion when it is kept at just that, religion. My problem (and rightly so) begins when religious beliefs become law—especially when such beliefs replace or interfere with science. I have seen that happening in this country and feel sick. It is so sad to watch our country move backwards, to see people fight to take away another’s civil rights, and all the while claiming they are doing it in the name of God. I thought we were founded on seperation of church and state, and that it was those crazy Taliban-run countries that based their laws on religion?
The most recent example of our nation’s regression can be found in the debate over the recently available HPV vaccine for women.  This vaccine may prevent up to 70% of cervical cancer. Why is there any question as to making this available to every female in every state? Sadly, many religious organizations (“Christian” organizations) are lobbying against providing it b/c they feel that doing so would promote promiscuity. Perhaps they are right (though I doubt it), and yet that is just too damned bad.  Can they not realize that it is only wrong to those who share similiar beliefs? It is not their right to make it into law for the rest of the country?

Again, I have no problems with the Christian religion. I have serious problems when religious beliefs start leaking into legislation, as they have so clearly begun to do already (gay marriage, stem cell research, “intelligent design”, etc).  It is disgusting to have scientific fact dismissed and replaced by religious theory. (As our president has proudly done with the introduction of “intelligent design”.  That may be what he believes, but who the hell is he to demand that his belief be taught to every child in America? Who is he to force the dismissal of years and years of scientific fact? ) The act of doing so gives way to a very slippery slope.  Making religion into law.  Hmmm…I wonder how the Taliban got started?

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By IRQ Conflict, March 14, 2007 at 6:02 am Link to this comment
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Why does anybody give any credence to this liar? You would be best served to research people before taking any of his tripe to heart. He is nobody.

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By Skruff, March 13, 2007 at 10:56 am Link to this comment
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Comment #58226 by John Hanks on 3/12 at 7:54 pm says:

“I am prejudiced against lower middle class values, but not lower middle class people.  The American way of life is lower middle class with its infantile infatuation with symbols and not substance, its inability to compare and contrast, and its perpetual anger and condescension toward anyone who enjoys lively conversation, reads good books, or writes a letter to the editor.”

I don’t know what stereotypical “lower-middle-class-values” you mean.  The values you suggest below might belong to William Randolph Hurst, John D Rockefeller, or any number of VAnderbildts.

My friends who live in trailers, three-decker walk-ups, and pre-built trac-homes have values as different from each-others as they are from thefolks listed above.

Some even embrace loyalty to family and friends, a desire to see their children achieve more, and a a strong work ethic.

Come on John, admit your bigotry and use “trailer-trash” & “swamp-nigger” in your posts… I understand what you are saying….even if you do not.

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By John Hanks, March 12, 2007 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment
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I am prejudiced against lower middle class values, but not lower middle class people.  The American way of life is lower middle class with its infantile infatuation with symbols and not substance, its inability to compare and contrast, and its perpetual anger and condescension toward anyone who enjoys lively conversation, reads good books, or writes a letter to the editor.

This is the fertile soil for every sort of monstrosity from fundamentalism to fascism to nazism and to corporate media culture.  To keep lower middle class values, you have to fight every day to ignore and stay away from the facts and ideas that determine our increasingly pathetic destiny.

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By Skruff, March 12, 2007 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #57750 by John Hanks the scribe writes:

“Democracy was born of the enlightenment, not of Christianity.  Christianity did contribute to the rise of individualism by emphasizing the fate of the individual soul.  However the naval gazing aspect of Christianity has always made it subject to every sort of crook.  Fear fuels every protection racket and especially the fear of the unknown or punishment in the hereafter. The rise of modern fundamentalism paralleled the rise of the lower middle class, which is fearful and angry at everything that is unfamiliar.”

There is no democratic country in the world today.  These united states have never been a democratic country. Ben Franklin, when asked told a citizen that we had “A republic if we can keep it” No democracy would allow a party system like ours, an electorial college, or a senate system based on geography rather than a one man one vote system.

Wyoming had a population of 509,204 Vermont had a population of 621,394 Both statea have 3 electors a system which disenfranches over 100,000 Vermont citizens. That isn’t anywhere near “democracy” and it doesn’t matter how many “enlightened folks” say it is.

Second, I suppose some “lower middle class folk” are the angry zenophobic people you contend they are.  I worked on the textile looms ($1.45-an-hour in 1969) in Lawrence with the most wonderful “lower-middle-class folk” They shared everything they had, they laughed, joked, cried and questioned the concept of “god” just as “the enlightened” few do on this board. 

I seriously doubt that the inner-city black folks (who vote almost as a solid Democratic block) fit your classification either. Or the native folks who occasionally pray to a different diety.

No, I think your concept is repulsive and wrong.  I would hope you reconsider.

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By morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 12, 2007 at 8:16 am Link to this comment
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Hanks, except for the bit about the lower middle class, I do agree with you. Their egos are so tied into the supernatural or the paranormal , that they feel they would lose a friend or source of help , if they changed .It will take emotions to help them overcome their superstition .Anyway, most are just fine .But we do have to take on these Christianists, faith -healers   and frauds . Bizby ,can you add anything? I applaud my fellow skeptics .

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By John Hanks, March 9, 2007 at 10:27 pm Link to this comment
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Democracy was born of the enlightenment, not of Christianity.  Christianity did contribute to the rise of individualism by emphasizing the fate of the   individual soul.  However the naval gazing aspect of Christianity has always made it subject to every sort of crook.  Fear fuels every protection racket and especially the fear of the unknown or punishment in the hereafter. The rise of modern fundamentalism paralleled the rise of the lower middle class, which is fearful and angry at everything that is unfamiliar.

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By morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 9, 2007 at 4:59 pm Link to this comment
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I abjure all thought control movements. I do not care for the supernatural and the paranormal, despite my schizotypy. I objurate faith healing and religious fraud. I find that most of those who engage in the supernatural and the paranormal do fine .I think that most fundamentalists would not follow the Dominionists!

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By susan 28, March 8, 2007 at 2:02 pm Link to this comment
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#56754 by Moe Hare “CIA missionaries”. 

Moe, the linked article goes into that in full detail - the pastor of Antipas Ministries, from whose site that article was taken, is a Vietnam vet and former intelligence pro who is also an evqangelical preacher, whose ministry is dedicated (among other things) to exposing the Dominionist movement for what it is, so he speaks from experience in both realms.

the site details the whole history of the movement from its inception to modern day, citing missionary use in political terorrism in Haiti, Latin America and elsewhere. there are literally hundreds of articles, all useful in and of themselves but because he’s a preacher all include biblical references to back up their claims that the Christian Right is an apostate (heretical) movement, and ties it directly to the Antichrist in Revelations, for those who put stock in that, as well as to debunk the Right’s claims that “Godless liberals” are the Antichrist; he clearly shows that the Abtichrist as described will emerge from the Christian church itself (the False Messiah, who will not be overtly anti-Christian but rather will masquerade as Christian and preach “global unity under Christ” - not UN secularism) when it will be corrupted by an alliance with “the Beast”, which will be a singular superpower with hegemonic military might (“who can make war with her?”, etc).

i must say that the parallel is startling. it’s disturbing enough to me as an agnostic (who was raised Catholic and had years of Bible study) but to true believers it should be downright horrifying. worth a read for everyone, but i warn it’s not for the squeamish or those who prefer to cling to the notion that “it can’t happen here”..

*sigh* it’s like watching a trainwreck in slow motion, only from *inside* the train..

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By morgan -lynn lamberth skeptic grigssy, March 8, 2007 at 10:28 am Link to this comment
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Surely, we have to have a consensus ! We should agree on the fundamentals that murder,rape,slavery and theft are wrong and that altruism is right against Ayn Rand .Our morality follows Jeremy Bentham in using the pleasure -pain principle and moralists who have adviocated the silver or golden rules. We discern what is good or bad for humans , other animals and the enviornment.In that sense , morality embraces objective values . It is provisional and debateable. It is contextual, not absolute or relative. We do have to free ourselves of presentism or ethnocentrism , but I think ours is valid for all persons at all times taking those two measures into account. I favor the Nanny State to take care of our welfare when private measures lack as they sorely do .Others can debate that . Fine, but we do so with reason and facts. I recommnend Michael Shermer’s ” The Science of Right and Wrong”, Paul Kurtz’s “Forbidden Fruit ”  Michael Martin’s “Atheism , Morality and Meaning” and RIchard Robinson’s “An Atheist Values.”      for atheist defenses of morality .

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By Moe Hare, March 4, 2007 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment
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Susan, you forgot to mention the special CIA missionaries.

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By susan28, March 3, 2007 at 11:08 pm Link to this comment
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#53928 by Skruff

“My father believes that missionaries aare sent to other countries to make them safe for capitalism”.


everything you ever wanted to know about American “missionary” work but were scared sh*tless to ask.. and this article is by a group of fundamentalist evengelicals, mind you. they’ve been there and back with these people and aren’t afraid to name names. they take the whole movement apart bolt by bolt. the site is just mindblowing. even *i* was shocked and i thought i’d heard it all. brave folks.

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By John Hanks, February 17, 2007 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment
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I think some of my posts have not been passed on.

The point I always try to make is the it is not our morals that are at fault for the mess we are in.  Our institutions must be blamed instead.  Neocons, and religionists of all sorts have launched a direct assault on our schools, government, courts, media, etc. with little understanding or resistance.

A lower middle class society that is constantly pandered by a media that exploits lower middle class values cannot stand outside of the box and see these right-wing traitors for what they are.

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By John Hanks, February 17, 2007 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment
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Nazis, Neocons, Religionists, etc. all have one thing in common.  They reify (sp) ideas so that self-serving abstractions (ie master race) are real.  They believe that they have a right to lie, cheat, steal and even kill to further some inherently impossible agenda.  They are extremely dangerous because they are criminals.

I would like to have them spending the rest of their lives in Leavenworth and on the net so people can tune in and see just how ordinary most criminals are.

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By Skruff, February 17, 2007 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #54097 by morgan lynn lamberth on 2/17 at 1:54 am

“... we have always had the moral sense,but it is a matter of developing it to be world wide in scope; for the world…”

What is “morality” and how do you define it across cultures?

What is “moral” to me, may be immoral to you.  I, for an instance, do not believe in “charity” I believe is a “natural selection” way of propigating the race. I believe in “Commonwealth” over Statehood,

What’s moral?  What’s not?

Don’t we have to have a consensus before we export it?

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By morgan lynn lamberth, February 17, 2007 at 2:54 am Link to this comment
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I was peluccid[quite clear.]I am a college graduate whose English professors did not object to my syntax. I could read better as I was only two years better than my peers . One more point to my economic points: unions could play a more vibrant role in the new social contract. Now please everyone, get onto the subject : how do we oppose the Christianists? Would public service ads work? Christianist quotes on billboards ? It might help to have the more tolerant fundamentalists sound out that they ,too, oppose the Christianists. Most of the fundamentalists do not want the Biblical version of law .Willian, good points.And the golden rule was taught long before Yeshua .No fingers in the sky gave us morality; we have always had the moral sense,but it is a matter of developing it to be world wide in scope; for the world is our neighbor.

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By Skruff, February 16, 2007 at 4:37 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #54031 by Jeff Badura on 2/16 at 1:56 pm says

“we live in a culture that has the highest standard of living in the history of mankind point blank so step back and smell the roses don’t let others filthy wealth discourage you from enjoying your relatively good existence !!”

You’re right Jeff, the conversation has gone stale.  I’m glad you have a good life, and believe all others in the US share your good fortune.

About that last….You’re wrong… but I’ll never convince you!

I really wish you could see the trailer park a bit east of Machias.  Little children about seven and eight play in the stacks of garbage heaped to the rear of the park. the cracked windows are stuffed with rags and the whole place stinks (especially in the winter) because an open sewer runs down next to the trailers to the lake-sized cesspool off to the side. The parents in this park often use drugs, including alcohol, and they don’t seem to have much ambition, BUT wwhat about the children? Do they deserve an existance like this because of their bad luck?

Pine Ridge in South Dakota is another place which looks (and smells) more like the third-world than here where wealth lives. But who cares about Indians?

maybe that education you plan to obtain will open your eyes.

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By Jeff Badura, February 16, 2007 at 2:56 pm Link to this comment
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hello all !!!
  this conversation has become stale and redundant we just keep saying the same things back and forth to each other ?? 
  i will say in regards to the article at hand i find myself in an interesting position defending Christianity for I’m usually arguing against it, religion is the scourge of mankind its been used since the beginning of civilization to suppress your fellow man !! so i understand were some get there angst toward the religious right in American but to be redundant i will say again that the christian zealots and TV Evangelist we have in American thought they might be misguided and a annoyance, they are nothing like the real religious scourge the earth faces with jihadist, the Islamic extremist believe we can either convert or die !!! they want to kill us they even want to kill themselves all for jihad and 72 virgins in paradise its a horrible predicament we are in when you factor in the nexus of WMD’s !! so i ask all you progressives out there who are so ready to condemn Christians and compare them to the evil of the Nazis (way off base ) you need to look towards the middle east to the real danger and evil that is religion of Islamic extremism !!  if you took the moral issue of abortion away from Christian religious groups, they would be left with gay bashing and the believe in a magical being !!  in a way abortion has given the religious right a lot of steam and ammo to gather and be politically active !!
  as far as economics goes many socialists have very good PC points when they talk of equity and the such but we live in free country, free to be greedy and free to be self centered the government doesn’t have a right to impose its tyrannical rules on independent businesses as as long as there not braking laws !! companies have a right to chase the bottom line to buy goods were they are cheapest and to try to maximize there profits !!  companies do not exist to supply jobs and benefit’s to there workers or country !!! companies exist to make a profit for there ownership !! its that simple !!  and to be honest we have it really good here in the USA (something libs refuse to ever admit) i will be redundant again and say we live in a culture that has the highest standard of living in the history of mankind point blank so step back and smell the roses don’t let others filthy wealth discourage you from enjoying your relatively good existence !!
  as far as the war on terror goes!! just because you don’t like the idea of war ( who does) doesn’t mean war isn’t necessary at time for it is !!! Bush might be a goober he might be verbally challenge but hes a good man at heart he’s trying to do what right by his country and these are dangerous times we face and his primary responsibility to the nation is to protect us and future generations to come from the dangers we face !!! not to avoid them because its politically unfavorable at the time the best presidents in our great history were men who did the hard job who weren’t always popular at the time but history barred them out to be right in the end !!
  i have enjoyed our banter Anne and Eleanore (your stats are still way off) and the rest of you lost souls and i hope to read you on other posts? look for me? ill be around but as for this one I’m out of here !!! see ya !!!

                                      - from the soapbox of, Da IllGramaticus KneeO’Kaun

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By morgan -lynn lamberth, February 16, 2007 at 10:41 am Link to this comment
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I stand unchallenged.We receive outsourcing also !Our use of machinery as Einstein long ago observed makes us the top dog .If we had the European social contract , our workers wouldn’t suffer.So,I stand with those unemployed workers !Don’t fault trade with   no argument ! Textile jobs benefitted workers of South Carolina against those of Massachusetts; now it is Chineses workers in textiles who benefiT. Push for a new social contract .We have less unemployment than Europe, so Europe needs to get a better employment enviornment.We certainly indeed need to press the Chinese government to   give the citizens a new liberal social contract as far as they can do so, step by step . I am with Sen . Charles Schumer to get the Chinese to buy more from us. Do not forget the export workers who stand to gain from free trade. A serious discusssion is in order, not my villification .Now we must oppose the Christianists ! That is the subject at hand.How do others challenge them ? As a naturalist, I will unite with others to oppose them through civil liberties groups. We need to oppose mightily the Roushdoonies !

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By Jeff Badura, February 16, 2007 at 7:38 am Link to this comment
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thanks Terry Sloth for pointing that out !! i didn’t know i was grammatically challenged???

    i thought we were discussing history, politics and religious philosophy and global economies??? whats the population of Pakistan? whats the unemployment rate in the USA? whats the difference between Christian zealots and Islamic extremist’s and what is a Nazi??? that’s what we are talking about?? i thing the diction class is on another site, you might have sent your post to the wrong place?

    must not have anything intelligent to say about the topics so you need to point out spelling errors???

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By Skruff, February 16, 2007 at 6:43 am Link to this comment
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Interesting that a article entitled “christianists of the march” has evolved to a discussion about wages, and profits.

My father believes that missionaries aare sent to other countries to make them safe for capitalism. 

SO, maybe the discussion hasn’t “evolved” at all. maybe God, religion, and particularly xtianity have always been about money!

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By Polly Ester, February 15, 2007 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment
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This article explains why it is imperative for the U.S. to rethink their policies on economics, globalization and energy consumption:

“Revitalize the US Manufacturing Base with Energy Reconfiguration. Alan Greenspan, the former chairman of the Federal Reserve, gave Americans the peculiar impression that it does not matter where American products are made, as long as people can continue to buy them. Nothing could be further from the truth. The loss of over 3 million US manufacturing jobs since 2000 has led to decreased real income, growing personal debt, and record numbers of personal bankruptcies. A superpower that loses its manufacturing base will not be a major power for very long.

The most viable careers in the 21st century will likely revolve around the “green” job sector. The US must substantially invest in alternative/sustainable-energy technologies, and other export sectors to gradually but earnestly move the economy from a trade deficit back to a trade account surplus. This will take decades, but the imperative for large-scale domestic energy reconfiguration projects and the deployment of alternative energy would provide the US with new employment opportunities that would be safe from overseas outsourcing, while also enhancing our long-term national security.”

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By John Hanks, February 15, 2007 at 6:04 pm Link to this comment
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We have been plagued with Fundamentalists, Zionists, Moonies and other bogus religious movements almost forever.  Most of them are criminally subversive and their leaders belong in Leavenworth for sedition and treason.

As long as liberals and progressives continue to insist on saving their souls and providing a good example, they will be fighting crooks with one arm tied behind their back.  When dealing with this kind of lower middle class filth anger is a waste of time.  Only a continuous black hatred will do. 

These people are criminals.  They are not moral actors.  They are deaf to any human appeal.

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By Terry Sloth, February 15, 2007 at 5:51 pm Link to this comment
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Morgan-Lynn and Jeff,

I think you both mentioned that you’re going back to college to improve your employment opportunities, let me suggest two college classes that will be helpful—reading comprehension and expository writing. 

After reviewing your comments, it is quite clear that both of you have difficulty expressing yourselves in a literate fashion.  English classes could enhance your chances of obtaining a higher position.  However, nothing is guaranteed since we do live in a global, competitive, and “non-protectionist” economy, so it is very possible, that a worker in China or India will have a far superior command of the English Language—-that’s life.

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By Anne, February 15, 2007 at 4:54 pm Link to this comment
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Jeff (and Morgan)
You replied that Eleanor’s stats on poverty must’ve been way off b/c “if that were the case, it would show up at the ballot box”. You are a perfect example of why it isnt showing up in the ballot box. You earn (as Eleanor said) what, in most cities, would be on-level witht the working poor. Im sorry that you dont believe that you deserve more. Also, Eleanor said that some dont have the academic ability to attend college. When you acknowledged her assertion, you changed it to “those who DO NOT WISH TO FURTHER THEIR EDUCATION are doomed…”. You changed her point in order to make yours, which, Im sorry, weakens your arguments since you cannot counter your oppositions position unless you change it.  First of all, you have a very niave perspective on the world. “If you dont like your current job, quit,go to school and earn a more prosperous living…” I believe that was your argument for those struggling at minimum wage jobs. Has it ever occured to you that it is unable for some (probably all who are in minimum wage jobs) to up and quit and go back to school? In addition, and most importantly, a great deal of people at minimum wage jobs DID go to college, DID earn a degree and DID have their jobs outsourced. Such people were earning far over minimum wage (which is necessary to support ones self and one’s family) at their previous, degree-earned job. Where will such people find new jobs at which they will be paid a comperable wage at the “starting out” level? Again, these are people who did go to college and earn a degree, only to have their career pulled out from under their feet. I have heard so many of these stories, one specifically where a college educated couple was forced to sell their wedding rings at one point just to pay the bills. I guess your advice would be to “just go back to school and find a new career”. Even if that were as easy as you make it sound, and not nearly impossible as the reality of this country makes it to be, what guarantee would they have that their NEXT career would not be outsourced?
Outsourcing, by definition, is just that. It is not made inevitable by progression, ie: the “invention” of new technology, as Jeff previously inmplied. Jobs which are made obsolite by progress (Jeff’s example of the Blacksmith and the car) actually CREATE more jobs. Outsourcing is (again, by definition) taking jobs OUT of America (for various reasons, all boiling down to money and greed) and sending them to countries so very poor that the employees there will work for a wage too low for the American worker’s survival.
This isn’t any form of progress, in fact it is regression. Jeff, you seem so apathetic to all of it w/statements such as “we might cry about not having this or that”... Jeff, in this country, “this or that” is medicine. “this or that” is food. “this or that” is health care for our children.  We will continue to “cry” about not having “this or that” as you so coldly put it, until our leaders stop exporting our jobs and importing our workers.
And Jeff, congrats on going back to college. I only hope for your sake that the degree you earn doesnt get wasted on a good job that is outsourced, leaving you as an entry level Walmart employee.
PS: I believe I have refrained from any personal attacks on the character of you or any other conservatives. Your statement of us “smug” liberals reflects just the opposite. Ad hominem is not a recognized form of debate, it is instead, a sign of desperation in an argument.

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By Skruff, February 15, 2007 at 1:57 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #53773 by morgan -lynn lamberth on 2/15 at 10:15 am says:

“Protectionism is nothing more than anti-competiveness”

It is hard to be civil to folks who advocate the abandonment of the American worker in favor of the nameless hords abroad.

When you speak of “competiveness” you fail to mention that workers in China are often paid in rice and live in prison cells. How can an American worker “compete” with someone who has no expenses?

So while you sell us out in the name of “social justice” maybe you should find out what type of “justice” exists where we are exporting jobs.


while you are at it, you might wish to visit Lawrence Massachusetts, Patterson New Jersey, or Gary Indiana and tell the displaced workers attempting to feed their (American)children how they can cut their wages enough to compete with chinese prisoners.

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By morgan -lynn lamberth, February 15, 2007 at 11:15 am Link to this comment
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Protectionism is nothing more than anti-competiveness , the protection of some at the expense of the majority.We need to sell more and buy more abroad to up wages and buying power. That is modern history . As Dr. Paul Krugman notes , we need an industrial policy for workers .Buying from your neighbor or from Beijing is the same thing .Without government involvement , there is economuc royalism; with, there is fairness, Americanism.Pat Choate, Pat Buchanan and Lou Dobbs’s solutions would beggar us .Americanism- fair play for all- is the ultimate solution!Protectionism is just like saying it is your money in arguing for tax cuts when social needs arise- it just does not work !

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By Jeff Badura, February 15, 2007 at 10:13 am Link to this comment
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Hello Eleanore

yes you are correct we do not share the same world view !! i understand your point about some aren’t ready able or willing to go to college and your right, but unfortunately in today’s hi-tech world those who do not wish to further there education are doomed to a more sparse existence than those that do !!(im going back and im an old man) we have to face facts and change with the times!! American labor has gotten really out of hand i don’t think it would ever be feasible to buy 200 dollar shoes, or the like that it would cost if things were made here in the USA!! just look at whats happening in Detroit to see the mess we are in!!  the planet is getting smaller every day so globalization ans outsourcing is a fact we have to deal with and adjust too!! regardless of our world views!! and no, if the cost of the medicated food for one on my many animals was to increase 100% to 200% he would die because unfortunately i could not afford to keep him alive at those costs!! when ever possible i do buy American and if the entire country agreed to cut off all foreign trade and be protectionist than maybe i would patriotically join in but you know that will never happen!!  but as i say over and over things aren’t that bad we have it pretty good so don’t fret we will all be okay in the end (economically at least)

PS not to cast this barb at you but have you ever noticed that a bi-coastal smug liberal wouldnt be caught dead in a American made car??

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By morgan lynn lamberth, February 14, 2007 at 9:42 pm Link to this comment
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I should have stated PPI[Progressive Policy Institue, arm of centrist liberal Democratic Leadership Council.] What the study there states is that our our companies and laborers beat the cheap manufactures with tools.So, it is just the old story of innovation making for fewer jobs after all, not cheap labor itself.As always , new jobs open up elsewhere.That is where the Europeans do well: they have worker protections . Did cheap Japanese and Korean goods do us in? No, we were better at producing other goods- comparative advantage or we competed well with them .Their wages have gone up !  As far as college and tech, many just cannot handle them alright. Yes, they can do better otherwise ! What societal aid do others advocate for displaced workers ?

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By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 14, 2007 at 7:44 pm Link to this comment
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Jeff, it is obvious that we do not share the same world view—-yes, everyone should have the best education possible, but not everyone as the academic ability to attend college.  Not everyone is capable, that’s just reality. The entire U.S. population will not attend college; those with academic limitations should not be inhibited from obtaining a good paying job.

Blue collar and manufacturing jobs, should not be arrogantly viewed as occupations not worthy of Americans, but only worthy of laborers in India, China and Indonesia. Historically these manufacturing jobs were unionized, paying excellent wages and providing good
benefits—-they are not the “service industry” positions at mega-stores that you redundantly claim are the realm of the young, who willingly accept $10.00 per hour positions with no benefits.  THIS IS A LIE—-propaganda that is used by multinationals, in hopes that the American population will passively accept their exploitation.

Yes, times have changed, not to the benefit of American workers, times have changed because both Democrats and Republicans no longer represent the working-class, they only represent the “corporatocracy”–-passing NAFTA and WTO and other such legislation, obliging multinationals who incessantly lobby politicians for favors.

We are all sick of hearing that third world populations are doing jobs that Americans won’t do—-that’s another lie.  Americans will take these jobs, but they want a decent wage and benefits.  BTW, Jeff, thousands of white-collar computer positions are being outsourced-—it’s called off-shore outsourcing.

So even if all Americans obtain a college degree, they are economically doomed, unless legislation is enacted to protect American employment—establishing tariffs, making it no longer quite so attractive to hire third world workers.

So maybe Americans need to cut-back on their consumption, buy fewer cheap items, and purchase items manufactured by American
workers—-Jeff, I’m sure your cat will survive; they all have nine lives.

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By John Hanks, February 14, 2007 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment
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The American people consists of three groups.  There are the crooks,the suckers, and the lazy cowards.  Lower middle class religions consist of crooks and suckers.  The rest of the people (with authentic religion) consist of lazy cowards.

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By John Hanks, February 14, 2007 at 5:23 pm Link to this comment
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Lower middle class religion reflects the values of the lower middle class.  It grovels before economic and political authority (just as it once defended slavery).  It makes up lies and then believes them.  It despises wisdom and learning.  And ultimately it resorts to force and/or fraud to get its way.  Jesus rightly despises them as blockheads and phonies.  They are almost totally devoid of any genuine religious, moral, or honest impulse.

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By morgan -lynn lamberth, February 14, 2007 at 1:14 pm Link to this comment
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Check out the Center for Progress to see that out-sourcing is not the problem.Trade aids the poor. What we need is give the lay offs job retraining and interim incme as Europeans get.

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By Jeff Badura, February 14, 2007 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment
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Dear Eleanor and Anne!!

    hello ladies i do enjoy your banter but lets be real ??

    FYI- i am lower-lower middle class my 32,000/35,000 a yr is low for the urban area, i do live in, but i don’t want to give to much info away, in case I’m looking for a job?? don’t want a hateful so called lib to blackball me when they google my name? and see I’m a proud neo-con !!! so i cant tell you guys all? but I’m no christian i told you before, i don’t go to church i don’t even believe in a judging god, i think religion is one of the biggest problems the world faces but i have to be fair too!! just because I’m no christian bible thumper doesn’t mean that Christians are on a par with the crazies in the middle east or with Nazis !! that’s simply foolish ignorant talk !!

    Eleanor your stats are way off !! you statement that our country had a 30% rate of workers in the USA earning poverty wage is just wrong !!! if that was the case it would show up in the streets and at the ballot box we have a steady 11% or 13% poverty rate just google poverty and after you weed through all the third world horrible real poverty! then you might find the US numbers and its about 11 to 13 %  as far as economics are concerned I’m not apologizing for corporate greed in American, but times change ,its no longer profitable for America labor to be manufacturing goods that can be sold on the world market !! we have become a white collar nation we outsource our labor to the developing world !!! that’s not going to change ladies and in the big picture that is progress for in the end it will improve the “real” poverty of the world in those countries !!  walmart and the such are careers for only the handful of white collar management, the rest are entry level service jobs, and that’s just the way it is !!!  i have had many bad experiences with tyrannical bosses! I’m fully aware that corporations can be mean to there employee’s, but this is a free country, if you don’t like a job !! quit !! go to school, start a new career, move to a more prosperous area of the country (i did ) we live in a free capitalist society, not a socialist workers utopia that only exists in the mind or dreamers!! every time a nation has tried Marx’s ideas it hasn’t happened as planed !! with out the sin of greed, there is no progress!!  our system works !! it really does !! we might cry about not having this or that, but the things we really need we have in abundance! we are are really rich in any historical context !!  we have food, water, lodging, clothing,heat, medical (no one is turned away from the emergency room or the county health care facilities, so yes, we have medical too) history, is the only fair judge of our current society, for humans are inherently dissatisfied !! we live into our early 80’s our biggest problem right now is obesity? and i think that says it all, our gluttony is our problem not the lack of goods !!! yes, the rich are getting richer,(so what) but the middle class has stayed roughly around the same, a kid getting out of high school today has to go to college and not the factory if he wants to succeed in life, but like i said times change!!  so ladies, i say to both of you, go to walmart buy some flowers and smell the roses !!! living in the USA ain’t as bad as you progressives make it out to be !! (glass half full vs half empty)

PS- say a prayer for George Bush, he needs your help and support to bomb Iran !!

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By Anne, February 14, 2007 at 1:03 am Link to this comment
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Hi Jeff, Long time no see,
Your response to parts of the Walmart discussion included that surely blacksmiths were unhappy with the invention of the car, ice carriers unhappy w/the invention of the refridgerator (spelling??)...and etc. These were jobs lost due to progress, industrial and technological progress
-Currently, jobs are not lost due to progress of any sort, these are jobs OUTSOURCED. (taken away to lower the wage.) These are jobs lost due to corporate GREED. Sure it may help third world countries, (though I doubt it since outsourcing exists only to pay LESS) this may help such countries, but its HURTING ours.  This is sheer greed and nothing else. Those who have lost hard earned jobs are then forced to find one, many only able to do so earning minimum wage. They aren’t responsible for outsourcing, yet they pay the price. Could you support a family on $10 an hour, without insurance or sick days? Without insurance, have you any idea the cost of medications? Could you do it on a Walmart’s salary? How about $6.5 an hour, as that is the minimum wage in my home state.  You know you couldnt support even yourself and your cat on that, no matter where you shopped. Why do you think minimum wage is only for teenagers? Go into Walmart for the cheaper price and take a good look at the employees. They are the reason you’re paying less. It’s there you’ll find the struggling people of this country, and they will not be as young as you think. Its a sad thing to face, but its there.

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By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 13, 2007 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment
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Jeff is an expert on $10.00 per hour wage earners—-Jeff’s income is about $30,000 a
Year, in most urban cities he would be considered working poor.  How surprising, that someone who is exploited enjoys licking the boots of their exploiters.

Perhaps you’re involved with too many bible study groups; mythology is beginning to affect your judgment.

It’s nice to know that your cat can find a cheap meal—-but feeding your cat does not justify the exploitation of workers.  CEOS are making more than 450 times the salary of an average
worker—-is that your definition of progress.  If that is the case, than you in vision American workers as nothing more than third world slave laborers.

“But our capitalist system has worked very well for all of us, you live in a country with the highest standards of living ever (last 60 yrs) in the history of mankind so it must be working!!”

Jeff, you have assumed the role of apologist for multi-national corporations, who have no loyalty to any country; in fact globalization allows them to avoid taxes in the U.S. and in the country where they manufacture their junk.

“The truth of the matter is that in the ‘booming economy’ of this, the richest country on earth, 30 percent of American workers earn poverty or near-poverty wages because the minimum wage has not kept pace with inflation and we have lost millions of decent-paying manufacturing jobs. Low-wage American workers are now the lowest-paid in the industrialized world. In this nation of ‘‘family values,’’ more than 20 percent of our children live in poverty.”

Jeff—-take time off from reading the bible, and start to read non-fiction books about the economy—start with “Nickel and Dimed,” by Barbara Ehrenreich.

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By Jeff Badura, February 13, 2007 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment
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Mr Skruff did you read the next line in that comment?? i said some are going to point out dictator’s we are dealing with to point out the supposed hypocrisy of the statement, and you did!! as i said Skruff one dictatorship one despot at a time !! some might say that dealing with China is opening them up from the inside (i don’t always agree) and that economic freedoms will bring social freedoms, the point was, that Bush had made it, for the first time in our history due to the Neo-cons, the stated policy of the USA, that we would or should no longer be placating dictators at the guise of a false security!! that had never been said so like that before !! you guys can nit pick my words, and turn them around, cut and paste them like Micheal Moore, to your liking, but the facts are still the facts!!  and no one is happy about having to deal with the Saudi’s or China? but one thing at a time!  Skruff look at the big picture !! would you have us do nothing? because we cant topple the government of China? so we should just give up, retreat from the world stage cause we cant change the whole planet tomorrow??  and pretend that Bush is the enemy? not despotism or Islamic extremist!! the logic of the left make no sense, its all complaint’s, some valid and some not, but zero solution !! its so cool to dump on your country?? with no solutions for a better future!!  just blame the USA for everything and oppose anything the government tries to do !!! that’s the plan of the left !! and that’s why you get no real traction or respect nationally !!

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By Jeff Badura, February 13, 2007 at 10:14 am Link to this comment
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    we are talking about service jobs! 10 bucks an hour to start for entry level service jobs not life long careers !!!  yes times change things change you can either be flexible and go with the times or you go the way of the dodo bird !! outsourcing does and is uplifting the third world just look in China or India to prove my point !!!
again i will say cause you guys just cant grasp it, minimum wage is entry level pay for kids, 10 dollar an hour job is entry level pay for service jobs !!  the market determines the cost and pay for product and wages !! if you are already opposed to the free market then you can always find some reason to complain, but our capitalist system has worked very well for all of us, you live in a country with the highest standards of living ever (last 60 yrs) in the history of mankind so it must be working !!!  you left wing socialist are letting your ideology cloud your reason! like with most issues your lost !!!  when you save 10% to 25% a week on the costs of products than that’s a pay raise too, you fail to see that !!!

FYI- at walmart medicated cat food cost 16 bucks !! at Main street pet store is 22 and they never have it in stock ??? if i had to rely on Main street my cat would die and or i would pay 33% more !! just so that our economy can stagnate !!
sorry Eleanore, nothing stays the same, its called progress, I’m sure blacksmiths were not happy about the invention of the car!!! ice carriers were not happy about the invention of the refrigerator!!! progress at times comes with the loss of jobs, how may secretaries and printers have lost there jobs due to computers?? its easy to hate walmart, and home depot if you wish to hate !!! so have at it !!

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By Skruff, February 13, 2007 at 9:45 am Link to this comment
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Comment #53105 by Jeff Badura on 2/12 at 9:20 am states:

“Sorry John, your point blank wrong, a neo-con is simply a “new-conservative” its from a change in our attitudes toward foreign affairs were we no longer support the tyrannical dictators of the planet”

You think?

What about China’s dictator who has recieved Most Favorable trade status from three administrations (including the current one, although they no longer call it MFN)?

What about Pakistan’s dictator who is ourr new best friend, even though his countrymen likely harbor Osama Bin Laden?

How about our cozy relationship with the House of Saud, the Kuaiti Emirate, and our former enemy in Lybia?

No, I believe the difference is now we support dictators for economic benefit, rather then political idology.

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By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 12, 2007 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment
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“second Wal-Mart does hurt Main St.  yes, I will agree, but have you tired to shop on Main st ??? they have lots to be desired, and the prices are too high, and the stock is too low, and the hours are worse than banking hours !!! so Wal-Mart might not offer good health insurance ( a much bigger problem than just Wal-Mart- you can blame the retiring baby-boomer’s for sky rocketing health costs) but Wal-Mart doe save me 20 to 50 bucks a week on everything from clothing to cat food !!  I know international mega corporations are frowned upon by the socialist left, but I’m sorry to say its called progress !!! the super grocery stores, the home depots, and the rest bring down costs and give much better service than Main street !!! times change, things change, you have to be flexible in the global marketplace or you fail? its that’s simple !!! it’s called capitalism !!! if your already angry at the notion of capitalism? you’re going to hate Wal-Mart, and the such, but so be it !!”

No wonder the Right Wing are theists, the above mentality is so politically distorted and replete with illogic thinking, that these folks need to pray for “God’s help,” because their lunacy if left unchecked, and allowed to dominate government policy will lead to our doom.

The fact that Jeff, can buy a few cheap “shmattehs” each weak, is all that is needed for him to formulate his economic assessment of multi-national corporations.

As far as Jeff is concerned, the entire U.S. can look like one giant mall inundated with super-stores, filled with cheap merchandise manufactured in China and Indonesia, sold by workers earning 10 dollars per hour and purchased by workers who are nothing more than indentured servants. 

So the great plan of globalization is not to up “uplift” the workers in third world countries, it is only to make workers in the U.S. more like “wage slaves” in China, India, and Africa—-but according to Jeff that’s ok, because that’s our future and we need to be flexible. 

So the next time you hear capitalists, the Christian Right, or your local politicians talk about globalization, and how it benefits the American middle-class, you will know that they are nothing more than TRAITORS who are undermining the workers of the U.S.

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By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 5:03 pm Link to this comment
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Anne,  i said popular music amongst other things, we saturate the globe with our culture and that is “one” of the handful of reasons we are hated !! all other countries measure there success on a scale were the USA on top so you get envy and hate cause were on top!!  then the french and others will say “we like Americans we just don’t like Bush!!!”  that’s just a line to hide their bigotry!! sure they don’t like Bush too!!!! but to be honest if we have a president that’s loved world wide and by the likes of french he wont be looking out for our best interests!!

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By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment
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hello again!!
  sorry to be redundant but here is   another “Nazi or Fascist” statement according to John H.: 
  the words of JFK- “Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.” -John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

those words are the words of a modern Neo-con!! that says it all, right there !!  thats what a neo-con believes in !!! freedom and liberty for all!! even for you John !! freedom to call us Nazi’s !!!

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By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment
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orginal Neo-cons types were men like Pres. W.Wilson!! they just didn’t name them as such at the times, he was pro-active, he started the league of nations, and tried to promote democracy worldwide after the Great War (WW I)with his 14 points? well ahead of his time, a Neo-con type of statement from Bill Clinton, while signing the “Iraq Liberation Act” on October 31, 1998, Clinton said: “It should be the policy of the US to seek to remove the regime headed by Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace the regime “. This “law” was ratified by both houses of congress, in, I will say again because it begs repeating, 1998!
so much for “Bush’s” war of agression??

sounds like a fascist’s and a Nazi’s to me ??? come on John H. you really should think before you write such slanderous garbage!!

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By morgan-lynn lamberth, February 12, 2007 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment
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Even Orthodox Jewry do not call for stoning and some other commandments to enforce themselves !One hopes the author and Harris will make in roads on getting others warned about these evil-minded folk. As Sydney Hook warned against the communists, it is the perversion of tolerance to let such people get their way !Their god ,Yahweh, is such an evil god !

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By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 11:32 am Link to this comment
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    when Bush made the comment the rich being about his base, he was joking !! his real base is the grass roots pro-life christian right that are demonized here !!  yes, the business rich vote for him, so do the neo-con “intellectuals”(ha ha ha )!! 
  second walmart does hurt Main st.  yes, i will agree, but have you tired to shop on Main st ??? they have lots to be desired, and the prices are too high, and the stock is too low, and the hours are worse than banking hours !!! so walmart might not offer good health insurance ( a much bigger problem than just walmart- you can blame the retiring baby-boomer’s for sky rocketing health costs) but walmart doe save me 20 to 50 bucks a week on everything from clothing to cat food !!  I know international mega corporations are frowned upon by the socialist left, but I’m sorry to say its called progress !!! the super grocery stores, the home depots, and the rest bring down cost’s and give much better service than Main street !!! times change, things change, you have to be flexible in the global marketplace or you fail? its that’s simple !!! its called capitalism !!! if your already angry at the notion of capitalism? your going to hate walmart, and the such, but so be it !!
  as far as being afraid got Bush elected?  i beg to differ !!! its facing facts !! we have enemy’s that want to kill us, stated in there own words!! because of our way of life, and understanding that, is not living in fear!! its addressing the biggest problem of our time (the war against Islamic extremism)!! sticking your head in the sand, and ignoring this grave problem, because it doesn’t fit you political outlook, is plain ignorant!  and i mean no disrespect, but that’s what it is !! 9/11 is not theory or fear mongering it is historical fact!!

PS - i sleep very well at night, knowing I’m doing all i can (very little in the big picture) to preserve democracy for you and your friends so your children can live in this wonderful culture long after we are gone !!! we owe that to them, and those that gave there lives before,  so we could have it so good !!! freedom is not always free, its paid for by the blood of our dead hero’s !! deposing Saddam and soon to be the Mullahs of Iran and changing the hate filled middle east for the good of mankind puts necessary blood on all our hands!! so i dont lose sleep!!  doing nothing like the left wishes, is what caused 9/11!! and that’s were you need to look for blame !! the PC wonder land left: who’s political views are come by their wishful thoughts, instead of by the hard ugly truth of reality !!

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By Jeff Badura, February 12, 2007 at 10:20 am Link to this comment
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john hanks- Neoconism:  A subversive political movement that believes that a Nazi or Fascist end justifies the means which include subversion and terrorism.

Sorry John, your point blank wrong, a neo-con is simply a “new-conservative”  its from a change in our attitudes toward foreign affairs were we no longer support the tyrannical dictators of the planet, in the guise of a false security !!!  I know many are going to point out some despot we are buying oil from, or we are not apposing at the minute to point out the hypocrisy in my statements, but keep in mind things take time, one country one despot at a time!! Neo–cons believe in the spreading of freedom, spreading pluralistic democracies as our stated national policy!!
see- to get the meaning of a neo-con !!

how you can equate that with fascism is beyond me, for fascism loathes freedom ! ???  again you make my case in my previous arguments !!

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By c, February 11, 2007 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment
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A side note on the “Jesus Camp” documentary. You can view it, full length on “”. Again, the fundie children in this movie are indoctrinated to commit their loyalty to a “war” against non-christians. One boy is interview who says, “When I walk down the street and run into a non-christian, I know it immediatly; it makes me feel icky, yuckie…” These children are taught to be repulsed at non-christians! Does this worry any of you, because it creeps me out! They take one look at people, as if they are street smart, and sit in judgement others; no wonder they feel “icky”! Imagine having to judge everyone you meet on the basis of their religious affiliation.

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By Jeff Badura, February 11, 2007 at 5:24 pm Link to this comment
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Patryk you said “I attacked your spelling solely because this is an argument where intelligence and sanity (something spelling can indeed represent), are in question…. . I see my prior argument as on-topic, and not a random attack of character as you defended it to be.
    well I’m bringing this up again not to scold you for pointing out the evident facts, of my bad grammar !!! but to argue about your observations ??? in this context what is most important to have, is a sound knowledge of history, geography, and religious philosophies !!! we are talking geo-politics and religion !!!  when i hear comparisons to the republicans and Islamic extremists ??? or the christian right and Nazism ??? it it very clear that those making such comments are either just casting nonsensical barbs for the sake of name calling or they have no real clue about the topics we are discussing !!  that’s were you should spend your time judging intelligence and sanity!!  as i do every other 1st Tue in Nov.  history history history people if your ignorant of were we came from, how can decide on were we are going!!  if you have no real knowledge of geography and the worlds government and history then you tend to operate on emotion only instead of logic and your political view are such !!! I’m reading all the articles on the site and its clear the writers know how to spell but most leaving comments don’t know what there talking about !! and I’m not just talking about this post, all of them, on this site print a not so pretty picture for the lefts point of view !!!  Hench my comment of days ago saying reading this stuff gives me strength !!  and amusement !!!

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By Anne, February 10, 2007 at 11:56 pm Link to this comment
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Hey Jeff—
I don’t think America is hated for exporting their rap music, though if we were, I’d understand.  I think you are right in the fact that being hated (out of envy) is what you get for being on top, and that we’ve been hated by many in the middle east long before 9/11.  But by starting and leading a war with such contumaciousness against a country that did not attack us, we have estranged ourselves from our most valuable resource: our allies, the U.N.  And, as everyone can plainly see, his war has breathed new life into(and new reasons for) hating America.  Bush has succeeded in making us more vulnerable by diverting our attention, our military and our money to Iraq when more immenent threats exist.  We will have no support when we really need it, and at this rate, we really will.  I know the Bush campaign wouldnt succeed without their fear tactics, that’s how they got “elected”.  Unfortunately they’ve made you scared of the wrong thing.  You should be scared of them. You should be scared of the real threats to homeland security.  My fear is that when this country wakes up and finds out what’s really going on, it will be far too late.  Bush is doing the damage now, as we speak, as we vote.  Don’t wait until “the damage is done”.  I fear we will have (a worse) hell to pay.

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By Anne, February 10, 2007 at 8:13 pm Link to this comment
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Dear Jeff:
I’m going to try to keep this one shorter than previous retorts.  Here goes:  I do not believe in demonizing the rich.  I am not blaming them for being the top 1%.  I blame the Bush administration for putting that top 1% and their interests above the rest of the country-  ESPECIALLY at a time when so many are struggling.  The top 1% (the richer-than-rich) are receiving more and more tax breaks, meanwhile whats left of the working middle class suffer and continue to hover just above the poverty line.
The programs previously put in place to protect such families from falling below that line are being cut, all the while allowing the rich to get richer.  This is not an attack on the rich, it is a demand for accountablity from the Bush Administration.  I am saddend that you don’t see the difference. 
Walmart may pay their “associates” $10 per hour,  but at the same time,it has found a loophole that allows them around paying unemployment and health care.  A problem ensues on a statewide level: Walmart supercenters move in and (firstly drive all other smaller, locally owned stores out of business), then proceeds to obtain an enormous amount of employees.  The employees are disallowed fulltime work, health benifits, or unemployment benefits.  When an employee gets sick, they utilize medicaid, which our tax dollars pay for.  If they lose their job and need unemployment, to which they should be entitled, they do not receive it.  They are forced to use a state or federally sponsered program, AGAIN using our tax dollars to support them.  This administration then cuts such programs from use, thus forcing more and more to live without and in poverty.
The admnistration you are defending first wipes out much needed government programs and then endorses companies that force the necessity of such programs.  It is politically and morally dyslexic-which is ironic, b/c if there was any kind of federal program to help dyslexia, I’m sure they’ve cut that by now, too.
Walmart is the number one retail chain.  It cannot be argued that they monopolate the entire industry.  They employ millions of hard working people and refuse to take the ethical responsibility of such domination.  They force it on us, the tax payers.  And when I say “us” I mean everyone BUT the top 1%. We, the middle class are forced to pay for the medical and financial needs of Walmart employees.  While Walmart pratices these unethical and appalling forms of moral bankruptcy, it advertises as a “family-values” based industry. Ugh.
Our money, our hard work, our way of life has been taken from us to allow the rich to become richer.  Why?  Because they are the elite.  They are the funds behind the coorporations, the campaigns, and the officials.  The Bush administration and its affilitates have taken what is not theirs to give and given it to the rich.  (ie:the rape of the middle class) Bush himself said at his own campaign fundraiser “You here tonight are the elite.  The richest of the rich.  YOu are my base.”  -Atleast that wasnt a lie.
(Sorry I failed in my attempts to keep things short, but that’s what happens when you back up your arguments instead of using one-liner rhetoric, i.e: “this is class-warfare”, or “when all else fails, Dems like to beat up on the rich”.
Unfounded statements like that are easy to use, easy to believe, and succeed in misrepresenting the truth.  It takes more time and more knowledge to actually use facts in an argument.  Perhaps that is why this administration avoids them.

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By Jeff Badura, February 10, 2007 at 7:23 pm Link to this comment
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hello All !!!
    Patryk, no real offense taken, my grammar and spelling are horrible and if it weren’t for spell check you all would see much worse !! but not to cry in my beer (republicans don’t whine) !! i just have to deal like a guy with speech impediment (Bush)!! i was surprised how long it too for someone to say something? there’s been vague comment about levels of education and such but i don’t know if they are referring to me?  as far as intolerance goes, not so much directed at you, or any one person, but i have learned living in a very blue state that those on the left can be very intolerant?? they might not even know it!! notice how all GOP president are dismissed as stupid?? come anyone who believes Bush who is verbally challenged is truly stupid or that Reagan was stupid or that Ford was stupid is being very intolerant,  just look at the comparison to Nazis in the article above when speaking of the religious right that’s huge intolerance and slander and hate speech !!  in fairness the right is full of intolerance too, but the left wants too pride themselves as being fair minded open free thinkers and i find that to be not the case most of the times!!  sorry, as the only neo-con (spelled wrong?) posting here i cant answer every question posed to me, i don’t have all day!! I’m already spending too much time !!and they hold messages all day some time before posting, so i cant always keep up but i try !!

Anne, Bush was slow to get off the pot, when he took office in 2000, first we had the election debacle that took about 3 months away from him getting his team settled then being that Clinton was a Dem, and Bush was in the GOP the whole higher bureaucracy was changed over, so for the fist 9 months of Bush’s presidency he wasn’t as focused on Bin Laden as he should have been !!! but Clinton had 8 yrs not 8 months we were attacked 9 times in his presidency !! he did very little to combat international terrorism, as the left wishes, and he kept the facts away from the American people in order to diminish the threat, so that the political question of action would not come up !! I’m not going to say he was a bad person, but i will say he was very wrong, and i believe history will bear that all out, after the 92 World Trade center attack on our soil the mission should have gone into overdrive and into the hands of the military but it did not !! when the Iranians were implicated in the Kolbar Towers attacks he kept it secret as not to have to deal with Iran !!!  secretly fretting over terror then warning your replacements is not enough in my eyes !!  Clinton should have used the bully pulpit to warn the American people of the threats we faced!! and he should have fought against the terrorist !!  Bush after his slow 9 month start is now trying to do what has to be done and the left hates him for it (Iraq)!! so i don’t believe I’m being bi-polar!!

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By morgan -lynn lamberth, February 10, 2007 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment
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Atheists, according to a Christian poll have slightly fewer divorses than conservative Christians. There are proportionatley fewer atheists in prisons.There is no real moral differences between groups.And Christians love pre-marital sex as much as others.Morality depends not on the sensibilities- subjectivism - of the men of yore , not God ,who wrote scriptures.We have a better moral sense since ancient times.It is the use of reason and real facts, that of humanist morality, in search of what is good or bad for humans , other animals and the enviornment.We do what is right from our consciences, not from the puerile fear of the Lord!We do not need religious quacks telling us what to do! I accept the Nanny State in her going after what is objectively wrong. It is objectively wrong to smoke against others; it is not wrong to read pornorgraphy .

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By John Hanks, February 10, 2007 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment
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My working definitions:

Fascism: Rule by an elite composed of media, government, corporations, military, etc.  (Corporations frame the issues.)

Nazism:  Rule be an elite devoted to terrorism at home and conquest abroad.

Fundanazism:  The belief that a Nazi regime exists as an expression of a skygod’s will.

Neoconism:  A subversive political movement that believes that a Nazi or Fascist end justifies the means which include subversion and terrorism.

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By Anne, February 9, 2007 at 8:17 pm Link to this comment
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This is for Chris, who commented on 1/31:
If reproduction is to be experienced only through heterosexual acts, what do you think of artificial insemination?  To be consistent, shouldnt that be deemed as encroaching upon the now apprarently mandated heterosexual experience for having children? -and then (to be fair) shouldnt the resulting child not recognized by the government as true biological offspring of the parent(s)?  -(just as gay marriage is not recognized by the government b/c there is no “heterosexual experience” in such a marriage). What about mothers who utilize the science of artificial insemination, or surrogate mothers?  What about married women who cant reproduce naturally?  There is no heterosexual expereience, which, according to you, is the CORRECT way to reproduce.
Also, you said if gays want to be gay, that’s their perogative…just as long as they dont get married, b/c marriage is SUPPOSED to be between two heterosexuals.  Just curious, who the hell put you in charge of what marriage is SUPPOSED to be?  Thank God we have people like you to tell us how to love our partners and what marriage is really SUPPOSED to be.  That’s what we need.  We need one person (one religion) deciding for all of us.  That seems fair. 
How about next week we have the polygamists decide what marriage is SUPPOSED to be?  Or would that bother you b/c you dont agree with that religion??  Would that bother you if someone else’s religion was made into law?
Do you think God loves the gays?  Do you think Jesus wouldnt allow them the same privelages?  I was always taught that God is tolerant, and as a someone raised in a Christian household, so am I.  Please dont convince yourself that by believing if gays want to be gay, then “that’s their perrogative…just as long as they don’t get married”.  That stance is one of judgement.  It isn’t Christ-like.
And PS: who the hell said anything about complex chemical reactions being the driving force we democrats believe in?  Just b/c we dont want anyone’s religious beliefs (not even our own) being made into law, that does not mean we want no law at all. To assume so is morally neglegant, and it makes an impotent argument.

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By Anne, February 9, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment
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Hello Again Jeff:
Okay, I’m confused about something.  According to your previous arguments, the Clinton administration was a do-nothing administration, one far more inadequate than the Bush administration, especially regarding 9/11. 
To use your words: “we saw our policy was flawed the Clinton policy of do nothing ever endless diplomacy”....
and then another quote from you: “ignoring them or pussy footing around them AS ClINTON DID ONLY EMBOLDENS THEM, AND IT GIVES US TRADGEDIES LIKE 9/11!!”
However, when Bush did nothing to prevent 9/11, you had this to say: “all presidents, get reports, after reports, every day and could you imagine the uproar that would have ensued if Bush would have tried to close the airports, or round up terror suspects, before 9/11?? come on Anne!!”
So, you critisize Clinton for doing nothing, but as far as Bush doing nothing, well that’s just fine, what could he have done anyway?  Are you really going to stick to this position??—B/c its extremely bipolar… in addition to being completely wrong.
Here comes the wrong part.  Clinton DIDNT do nothing.  He and his administration tried like hell to warn the Bush White House of the terrorism to come, (a conclusion at which I can only presume they arrived by READING reports on the topic)! Their ultra-specific warnings, such as, “You will spend more time than you ever imagined on terrorism, especially on Bin Laden,”
were met by this response from John Ashcroft:
“I never want to hear the word terrorism again!”
I guess when you plan on doing nothing anyway, there’s no point in learning anything.
Their REPEATED warnings earned them the label of being “obsessed with terrorism” by the Bush White House.  Just to remind you of your own words on the subject, you said: “ignoring them or pussy footing around them AS ClINTON DID ONLY EMBOLDENS THEM, AND IT GIVES US TRADGEDIES LIKE 9/11!!”
You actually go so far as blame the one administration out of the two that actually did their homework and tried to do something, and then you defend the administration that, at the time, had already been in office for almost a YEAR and proceeded to not only ignore the warnings, but to scoff at them. You falsely accuse Clinton of doing nothing, and in the same breath, defend Bush for doing nothing.
You can’t have it both ways, as such an argument is pharasiac.  It is completely self-serving and refuses to hold water.
To spread the icing on the corruption-cake, when the 9/11 commission debriefed everyone, under oath, Bush and Cheny REFUSED to be sworn in.  Furthermore, they would only appear at the hearings if they were in the room together.  (I guess they didn’t trust in each other’s ability to keep their stories straight.)  Blood is all over their greedy little hands and instead of trying to cleanse them, they deceitfully led us into Iraq only to spill more.  Honest to God, I don’t know how they sleep at night.  How do you??

PS: I won’t even mention the seven full minutes Bush spent sitting in a classroom wetting his pants while this country was under attack.

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By Patryk, February 9, 2007 at 2:57 pm Link to this comment
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Well, the thing is, I had been reading other arguments against you, and your responses (or lack there of). I then figured that since you seemed to dodge directly addressing a point made against you, I would try going at it a different angle (though you have been beginning to respond validly now).
I’m sure you can spell, but it does take away from your argument when such errors are present.
  I also merely did just want to point out that I felt the same comfort you did in viewing my opponent’s posts.
  And Jeff, I am quite tolerant. I attacked your spelling solely because this is an argument where intelligence and sanity (something spelling can indeed represent), are in question. If a poorly dressed man at a fashion show were to tell people their clothes were deplorable, Yes, I would point out his hypocrisy, like I did yours. But his spelling or accent would remain unmentioned. I see my prior argument as on-topic, and not a random attack of character as you defended it to be.
  However, if you feel I crossed the line, I apologize.

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By Jeff Badura, February 9, 2007 at 10:57 am Link to this comment
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Eleanore a point of history, first we were fighting American Indians along with French colonization of North America then Mother England then Islamic pirates / city states then England again, then Mexico then ourselves in a bloody Civil War then the Spanish then we oppressed the Philippines then we fought Mexican bandits all the while still commiting genocide on the American Indians, me moved on to fighting the Central Powers of WW I the whole time fighting small shooting wars in Central and South America then the Fascists of WW II then the Cold War and now Islamic Extremism !!!
  our nation is born of blood, freedom is born of blood, despots don’t give up power they have it taken from them, were all these wars noble??? no they weren’t!!  but were all theses wars unnecessary ??? some were very necessary !! and i say now, that the current struggle we find ourselves in with Islamic Extremism is a necessary war they declared it on us, for the last 30 yrs we have been taking pot shots from them, and turning the other cheek !! 9/11 proved we could not continue to do that any more !!
  war is evil, so is violence, but if I’m being physically attacked i will resort to violence and that does not make me evil !!
  the reason why people hate us around the world is very complex, but the main reason is human pride and emotion, we are the sole superpower, so we are the target of the worlds angst!! the only way to be more popular is to have our economy crumble, to have our military be rendered impotent, to have our popular culture go away, and to basically lose who we are. then those around the world will stop hatting us !! but i for one don’t want all these things to happen to us !!  having people be jealous and hateful of you is part of being on top !! it comes with the territory !! and don’t blame Bush !! my mother tells stories of when she was in Panama in the 60’s and there was a riot and the Americans had to whisked out of the country cause the government couldn’t guarantee there protection !! i believe Johnson was president at the time not Bush ??? we have been hated for a long time, and blaming Bush is just lib talking points !! theres a McDonald’s in every city world wide, rock and roll or rap is out selling french music in France, these and many more reasons are to blame for the emotional hate we receive !!

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By Jeff Badura, February 9, 2007 at 8:52 am Link to this comment
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Anne when a portion of the populace is demonized by another portion than i call it class warfare !! that might be a harsh word to describe it but the libs and the Dem’s, when all else fails, love to beat up on the rich (I’m not one of those rich)  so what would you call it ???
    sorry, i don’t agree with your opinion that Bush and his party raped the middle class ?? i don’t see proof of that anywhere !! there a walmart right down the street from me here and they pay 10 bucks an hour to start !!! that’s still a hard wage to make a living on, i agree, but its not minimum wage, and the people working for that 10 bucks are entry level unskilled workers!! minimum wage is for teenagers its the minimum !!! not the standard wage in a market and most people make more than it !!

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By Jeff Badura, February 9, 2007 at 8:35 am Link to this comment
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Eleanore, yes your right about the map comment i was just pointing out that there is a huge portion of our populace who don’t care about history or geography or politics !! and those are the ones who don’t vote !!  i know its unpleasant to think about a decades long war with Islamic extremist so the libs like to compare them with christian zealots to diminish the terror threat, henceforth there reason for inaction, but dear Eleanore, i might not be able to spell, but i know geo-politics? and the predicament we are all in, in the middle east with radical Islam: a hateful death/suicide worship movement, and the nexus of WMD’s is a nightmare scenario !! theses crazies believe if they die as martyrs all there sins are forgive and they go to paradise with 72 virgins ?? they really believe this stuff !! sure American Christians want to display the 10 commandment at the courthouse, but the Islamic extremists believe its there duty to kill you, and me, because we are infidels !! we are the great Satan !! Mohammad was a warrior, Jihad is a pillar of the faith, ignoring them or pussy footing around them as Clinton did, only emboldens them, and it gives us tragedies like 9/11!!  with WMD’s the next attack could be 1000 times worse !!! so even though its an unpleasant thought, to think about wars for the next 20 yrs in Iraq in Iran in Packston or were ever, it has to be done, and will be done !!

Patryk, you got me !! I’m grammatically challenged !! so that makes you so much smarter than me cause you can spell better ?? is that’s your whole argument ??? gee, how profound ?? just more smugness and elitism!! do you make fun of people’s accents or clothing too ??? that’s real progressive !!

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By Jeff Badura, February 9, 2007 at 8:33 am Link to this comment
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Skruff asked Q- Why is Osama still hiding by crossing the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan,  A-well we think he is there,and probably is ?? but Northeastern Pakistan is no man’s land it has no government,  we would need to put five hundred thousand troops on the ground, minimum,  to properly comb the entire region, and still might miss some spots, 140 million out of the 160 million population would rise up against us, it would be ugly !! I’m all for it, But even the Republicans in today’s political environment got a yellow streak down there spine (the Dem’s are much worse) i might have mentioned this before, Bush should have declared war on the terror states and international terror right after 9/11 and then called up a draft and build a 30 million man army and mobilize the populace just as we did after Pearl Harbor, but he blew it !! we need a much bigger army, so going into Pakistan even though i would be all for it, it is undo-able right now with our current military, even if we never went into Iraq, we still wouldn’t have the troops we needed to go through those mountains, a little unknown fact by most, our primary mode of troop transportation, the helicopter, does not work well in very high cold altitudes !! another problem to consider, one of the reasons we screwed up in Torah Bora??  You wont hear me say Bush is a perfect president. but Kerry or Gore would be doing even less to combat the bad guys,
Anne, some would disagree that it is the governments job to supply its populace with good jobs?? government,  is a necessary evil, its only real goal should be to do for its populace what they are unable to do for themselves, the federal government was only put together for the sake of making a military, that was the original reason, it has mutated for last 225 yrs into the behemoth we have today, as far as poverty goes? we are talking about 11% and if you look at that in ant historical context that’s doing very good !! the government does have the responsibility to give the basic needs to those poor, but only the Basie’s, as far a Bush goes and the Osama to Attack reports go?? all presidents, get reports, after reports, every day and could you imagine the uproar that would have ensued if Bush would have tried to close the airports, or round up terror suspects, before 9/11?? come on Anne!! you guys don’t want to do any of that today, how do you expect Bush to have done something prior to the attack, the only true way to defend our country is not by playing defense here at home, its by going to the region and changing those despotic governments, we have put in place with the help of Europe since WW I !! our oil money keeps the Saddam’s in power and built his tyranny, along with all the rest of them too !! so we do have a responibilty to to the mess we are now in !

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By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 8, 2007 at 6:33 pm Link to this comment
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“Its much bigger than Bin Laden, comparing Islamic extremism to Republican ideology or Christian Fundamentalism is intellectually dishonest.”

Sounds like you’re not just a Christian after all, you’re a Christian Zionist—-Islamic extremists are the new “enemy du jour.”  First we were fighting Communists, now we are fighting Islamic extremists—-gee, I wonder why everyone hates the U.S. so much—-they must hate us for our freedom, our streets are paved with gold; especially if you’re lucky enough to obtain a no bid government contract.
BTW, it’s pretty arrogant to say that 50 million working-class folks can’t read a map.  And it is not just teens that earn a minimum wage, let’s look at our good friends at Wal-Mart,  those “sales associates” work more than 40 hours a week and need Medicaid—-what a land of opportunity for the working-poor.

Christianity has morphed into a PROSPERITY GOSPEL worshiping financial success as a manifestation of Gods blessings.  If one is not wealthy, then they have not been blessed, they must be lazy, or flawed-—so, as a result,  only the most wealthy capitalist Christians are truly blessed by God—-this new version of Christianity as turned Jesus into a businessman, resulting in a religious crusade to democratize the Middle East using a strange synthesis of Zionism and “prosperity gospel doctrine”–-or it may,  just be a new up-dated version of Manifest Destiny.

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By Anne, February 8, 2007 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment
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Hi Jeff-
(in response to your points) First: When we were bombed at Pearl Harbor, yes, we did join the war against Hitler, but we also retaliated directly against our attacker: Japan -and we were successful.  So far, this administration has done nothing to bring justice to our attacker:Bin Laden.  Instead, they led us into a war under false pretenses.
Second: As far as the Clinton “do nothing endless diplomacy” goes, when the Clinton administration left the white house, they did so only after warning the new administration of the growing terrorist threat, specifically Osama Bin Laden—so much so that the Bush white house accused them of being “obsessed with Osama Bin Laden”.  By the way, have you seen the photos (taken in August of ‘01) of Bush with the (unread) report in his hand,(while on the ranch), titled “Osama Bin Laden determined to strike on US soil”?  I would say that you hit the nail right on the head by using the term “do nothing endlessly”, unfortunately, you just named the wrong administration.  Clinton tried.  Bush failed.
Thirdly:there are millions in this country living FAR below the poverty line and making minimum wage -which, by definition is supposed to be the minimum one needs in order to live ABOVE the poverty level.  It is the government’s job to establish an acceptable minimum wage to protect its citizens from poverty. Without it,employees could make $1 per day, as many immigrants do.  Americans don’t pass on jobs the immigrants accept out of choice- Americans pass on those jobs b/c they (we) cannot afford to work for such wages.  This administration began with a national surplus, provided courtesy of Bill Clinton.  They have, in return, given us a record-setting deficit,obscene tax breaks for the rich,(who yes, b/c of this just keep getting richer!) and continue to destroy the working middle class.  Perhaps you don’t know anyone besides teenagers who work for minimum wage, but all over the U.S. there are millions who had good jobs and lost them due to outsourcing and are now struggling at a minimum wage job and slipping fast below the poverty line. Unfortunately, the administration of the “faith based initiatives” won’t be able to help them b/c one of the first things they did upon taking office was to cut critical programs providing aide to struggling families.  How Christ-like. Outsource their jobs and then deny them any assistance.
I just find it so insulting that the administration responsible for the rape of the middle class couples such devestating actions with the terms “morals and values”.  Claiming “class war-fare” in response seems to me to be a stump-one liner response to divert attention from indefensible behavior.  I have explained why its not class war fare, can you explain why it is??

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By Skruff, February 8, 2007 at 5:07 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #52433 by Jeff Badura on 2/08 at 7:40 am says:

“Skruff we have backed the dictators, we have propped them up with are oil money…”

Funny you use the passed tense as if we are not doing the same thing today.  What made Saddam evit, and Pervez Musharraf our friend?  Why is Osama still hiding by crossing the border between Afganistan and Pakistan,20867,21124302-25377,00.html
Why does “our friend” allow the hate-America schools to continue in his land?

AND we didn’t “prop up Saddam” with “oil money” We gave him the gas he used to kill kurds.

Of course we knew he had weapons… we have the reciepts!

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By Patryk, February 8, 2007 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment
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Jeff, you say sitting here watching these arguments makes you happy because it reassures you that you are on the right side. I agree. You said it is so comforting to see us “libs” (by the way, you’re so cool for abbreviating it) say stupid things, because you take comfort in knowing that you oppose them? I feel the exact same way, except I’m a democrat. I see well-spoken people on my side, delivering well thought out points, and even citing their sources for Christ’s sake. Meanwhile, you babble on, confusing “your” with “you’re”, “there” with “they’re” and “their”, “where” with “were”, “to” with “too”, and other ELEMENTARY mistakes. Everyone makes typos, everyone. I totally get that, and I am not one to nit-pick. But seeing these, repeated over and OVER, really makes me happy, because I know, that is the type of person that disagrees with me.(Not saying that all Republicans are this mal educated… just Jeff.). Anyway just wondering if you had anything to say for yourself, or if you would just ignore my argument and disacknowledge facts like you do so often.

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By cultcounselor, February 8, 2007 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment
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Amos Hart…
You stated two premises within your reactionary diatribe. You wrote: ...”[Hedges] charges should be presumed false until supported by evidence”
Second premise…“For proof, you need only look at modern culture.”

The documentary “Jesus Camp” is all about fundementalist christians teaching their children to wage war on americans and to be ready to “die” in battle for the ultimate Jesus-fest. Isn’t this movie evidence? What was your sentence “...For proof, you need only look at modern culture”? 

Pat Robertson endorses the video game “Left Behind” that pits christian soliders against everybody who isn’t christian by killing them off in NYC. What was that you said, “Pat Robertson ONLY promotes christian values”??

So, THIS is how the fundementalist christians intend to (what was that you said)...
“stop headlong plunge into debachery and depravity of the last 50 years.”, teach children to hate and murder everyone who isn’t on their christian fundementalist list?

Come on now Amos, are you in denial? Do you teach your children to hate non-christians and teach them how to wage war as a way to stop non-christian americans, who you believe live in “debachery and depravity”?

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By John, February 8, 2007 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment
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The problem with the world today is that everyone wants to play God.  We need to remember that we are the created not the Creator and that the world needs to repent and turn to Jesus for forgiveness of sins.  Yes some do use the word of God as a way to manipulate and decieve others and they will recieve their reward in full.  I am a born again Christain and the Lord Jesus healed me from alcohol and drug addiction, he set me free.  I grow each day with his living and breathing word.  I think we all need to read the word of God and bring healing to the word faith so that we can all learn to love as Jesus showed us by the power of his love by offering his life for the lives of the world.  John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son.  Who ever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

Friends and Christain brothers and sisters lets all pray for our enemies and proclaim the Good news of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Godbless you all <><

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By John, February 8, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
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Hi everyone, I’m a Christain and I believe that everyone should calm down a little and remember what the Lord Jesus Christ told us Mathhew 24 There will be wars and rumours of wars, but see to it that we are not alarmed, these things must happen.  One thing we can take real comfort in is the fact Our Lord Jesus Christ is our Saviour and one day he will return and we will live with him in peace and love.

May the Lord bless you all and fill your hearts with his love.

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By Jeff Badura, February 8, 2007 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment
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John Hanks your last statement says volumes ?? but what is enough ??  that’s the question, and to Ann i thought i said 3 out of the last 4 but if not, i miss spoke, for no i didn’t vote for any of the winners in Nov. as far as laughing at the comments just reads through them yourself, many, not all, but many are pure hate and intolerance !!  i live in a very blue state and i see lots of so called progressive intolerance and hate and i read a lot of it here too !! many directed at the christian on the posing here ??? so that’s why i laugh and feel reassured with my stance on the issues for the enlightened so called progressives are often anything but (redundant), the glass half full have empty type of thing, libs complain about the sunshine its in there nature !! and those who do not, are passed off as jingoistic fools !!

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By Jenny, February 8, 2007 at 11:44 am Link to this comment
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Just finished reading—War Is A Force That Gives Us Meaning.

Thanks for articulating what I instinctually know.
You wrote in 2002.  I’m 5 years lagging.

I have enough spirituality to reason- that this is all according to plan so as not to kick myself too much.

Question: You write well enough to generate discussion of critical issues; do you see any leaders around to fill the void in a positive turn the tide way?  Someone charismatic enough to stir us into nonviolent effective love fueled action?

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By Jeff Badura, February 8, 2007 at 8:40 am Link to this comment
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Anne, yes Hitler was a loose allied of japan but we went to war with fascism in WW II we didn’t pick and choose or split hairs !! the main reason (other than bigoted racial hatred) for our problems with the extremists in the middle east is because yes Skruff we have backed the dictators, we have propped them up with are oil money and many in this format and this site mention that fact repeatedly !! they are correct so what do we do about it ??? continue more of the same ??? no !! we went after Saddam because after 9/11 we saw our policy was flawed the Clinton policy of do nothing ever endless diplomacy outsourcing our national defense to the UN, giving France a veto on our actions,  and going about the troubles we face in a law enforcement way, gave us 9/11 and the next attack down the road would only be worse !! it was a fair conclusion to make that there would be no peace in the region as long as Saddam was in power so after repeatedly violated the treaty to end the first Gulf War and had 16 UN resolutions against him “we” as nation decided he had to go, and for all you hand wringing doom and gloomers to be honest no matter what diplomatic bull-stuff our government says in public Iran is next !! and its not so that haliburton can make money its not because Bush has a stiffy or cause hes a cowboy its because it in the USA and the worlds best long term interest to change the climate of hate that is now the middle east !! if we don’t then 9/11 will look like a cake walk compared to to next attack !! its much bigger than Bin Ladden, comparing Islamic extremism to Republican ideology or christian Fundamentalism is intellectually dishonest, and don’t quote some 400 yr old history of christian brutality cause you only make my point !!  would you give the Holy Roman Empire of 1000 ad nukes ??? that’s the mentality we face in the extremist side in the middle east !!  you libs are opposed to any war all war and that’s noble it really is but it is not practical and hating your own government worse than the real enemy is also suicidal !!
  and my dear Eleanore the 50 million you talk about ??most don’t even know were to find there home town on a map ?? they don’t vote, because they don’t care, and wont care, to busy living in there own world, its not because they hate there government and will usher in some progressive socialist utopia!! keep dreaming but it wont happen !!  when you say the rich are getting richer yes you are right but the real reason for the statement is to create anger at those getting richer ?? like there doing somin wrong ?? be honest with yourself !! its pure class warfare !! its bigoted !! I’m not rich i earned 32,000 last yr i struggle with bills every day but that’s my fault for not working hard enough ore not paying more attention in school or what ever this country gives unlimited opportunities for those willing to seize it !! minimum wage is for those first time employees (teenagers) or immigrants who pour over our borders by the millions to work those jobs the rest of us wouldn’t do, proof of how good we got it here for even though people all over the world complain about us they all want to be like us !!!

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By John Hanks, February 8, 2007 at 8:08 am Link to this comment
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Does anyone realize that wealth (beyond reasonable amounts) is actually a burden like eating too much sugar.  Although I feel mostly contempt for rich people with lower middle class values, I sometimes feel sympathy for them just like I would for a child about to pull the pin on a hand grenade.

If I won a lottery I would give most of the money to some form of legal aid for the poor, so they could challenge our rotten institutions in court, without resorting to a pistol.  Even on my skimpy retirement, I find money to be a burden, so I give plenty away when I can, hopefully without getting scammed too badly.

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By Anna, February 8, 2007 at 6:25 am Link to this comment
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Hi Jeff,
I guess you are too busy laughing to actually debunk any of the things us “crazy libs” have pointed out, esp facts specifically countering your arguments.  By the way, if you voted with the majority the last three elections, does that include this past November?  Because all over this country people spoke volumes by voting out the Republicans and voting in Democrats.
Also, for a “president” who claimes to protect the weakest members of our society (as you said, the unborn), why is it that the number of abortions went DOWN in this country seven out of the eight years that Clinton was president, and then proceeded to go UP after Bush took office?  I believe that is because he and his republican counterparts have cut so much funding for children and family programs all over this country, that struggling families and mothers were left to fend for themselves, as they still are.  How is that protecting the weakest members of society?  How is that protecting anyone, but the rich?  As far as his “faith based initiatives” go, didnt it say in the bible, “give to the poor”?  By cutting federal and state programs all over this great country, how is that in anyway moral?  And by the way, the first man appointed by Bush to run the “Faith Based Initiatives Office”, a man named John Dilulio, resigned because of how political and partisan that office was.
And finally, we liberals love this country too, and we do it by speaking out against those who are trying to run it into the ground.  The current administration uses rhetoric and fear tactics in place of truth.  I believe I am being patriotic by demanding more from our leaders.  We all deserve that.

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By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 7, 2007 at 5:27 pm Link to this comment
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“Yes, let’s do talk about reality. The popular vote is irrelevant by law.”

“Who can vote, where people cast ballots, and how and whether their votes are counted all depends, to a large extent, on policies set in place by secretaries of state and county elections supervisors—officials who can be as partisan, as dubiously qualified and as nakedly ambitious as people anywhere else in politics.”

It would be nice to believe that we are NOT living in a “Banana Republic,” and we still have some semblance of a representative
republic—-everyone wants their vote to count and not to be discarded by the use of scam-like operations.

It would be beneficial to both parties to ensure that all elections are carried out legitimately.  It’s kind of odd to try to build democracy around the world, and then hold illegal elections in your own country.

Secondly,  We can talk about “Christianists on the March” but, what inspires this movement is the economic disgust that the poor white working-class feel towards the U.S. economy—-Jeff these are the folks that are not benefiting from Bush’s booming capitalist economy—-yes, there is class envy, they are envious of the illegal immigrants that have taken their jobs and are obtaining benefits that they no longer get.

They are fed up with the corruption in this government—-they want to know what happened to the billions of dollars missing in Iraq and why we are rebuilding that country with billions of tax dollars, when their own children do not have healthcare. They are angry that this President talks about terrorism in the Middle East, but fails to secure the borders of the U.S.

They are appalled that their sons and daughters who enlisted in this all-voluntary military are having to pay for veteran’s healthcare.  They are aghast that mercenary forces fighting along side enlisted men are making over 100,000 dollars a year.

They are sickened by globalization which has seized their good paying union jobs and replaced them with minimum wage jobs with no future or job security.

So all you wealthy, privileged Republicans wake-up there, are 50 million disenfranchised citizens that despise this political system and think all politicians are corrupt parasites—-so these are the political circumstances that are ripe for any ideology to incite unite, and fuel a movement—-religious ideology is just convenient.

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By Jeff Badura, February 7, 2007 at 5:26 pm Link to this comment
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point of view of a neo-con !!

Mr.John Hanks,
      thanks pal, i could easily post on a conservative site but watching you intolerant libs stew over a difference of opinion is worth it all !!  reading the comments and the articles posted here just reassures me that I’m on the side of righteousness and that the so called progressives are anything but that !!  no i don’t live in a trailer, i don’t go to church, I’m not rich, but i do love my country, and i do love George Bush !!! and in three out of last four elections i was in the majority and with the attitudes i read here that not going to change anytime soon ??? Dem’s win elections acting like the GOP and obfuscating the message and the far left loony idea’s that i see here don’t even have a voice in our electorate ha ha ha ha ha ha i laugh at you guys !!!  thanks !!

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By Skruff, February 7, 2007 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment
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Saddam used WMD’s on the Iranian and Kurds so to say he didn’t have them is fantasy !! he just didn’t have them when we invaded !! or we haven’t found them yet ?? i say we should look in Syria ???

Of course he had them… Reagan gave them to him…. AND the Kurds are a pain in the ass..  Ask our friends tthe Turks. When Saddam used his “WMD’s” on the Iranians he had our blessing. When he used them on the Kurds he had our sympathy

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By Anna, February 7, 2007 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment
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Hi All-
Just a few things, if you don’t mind.  First, when one says “the rich are getting richer”, it is because it is true.  This is not a blanket attack on the rich, or “class warfare”, as so many put it in order to avoid addressing the problem.  This is true, and the problem is that while the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer.  This problem is one of many levels, jobs are being outsourced, minimum wage is not at all keeping up with this country’s living standards, and health insurance costs go up each and every year to the point where health care coverage is the fantasy.  There will be no social security left because, with the rate of job outsourcing, there is no one left to pay into it.  It is a fact that the top ten percent of this country makes more than the combined 90 percent at the bottom.  This is a more than valid complaint because it USED to be expected that our government would care.  Number Two: as you said earlier, no, Germany did not bomb Pearl Harbor, and yet we joined the fight against them.  Japan, who was Germany’s allie, bombed Pearl Harbor and thus we joined in the fight against them.  Osama Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, not Sadaam Hussein.  And yet, who did we go after?  Who has been killed, Osama Bin Laden?  Nope, he is still at large.  Over five years later and the focus is no where near him, instead, we are mounting a huge deficit and thousands, thousands of lives have been lost fighting a war that was initiated (without the support of the UN, by the way,) under false pretenses, (aka LIES) and has resulted in no way out, a civil war, and more hatred in the middle east for Americans…plus the alienation of any international support.  Where is Osama Bin Laden?  Bush has been quoted, (and this is on video tape if you dont believe it) saying that he does not give much thought to Osama Bin Laden these days.  We were attacked.  And, in response, we waged a war against a man (and a country) that had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with it. However “they” have managed to convince us that Saddam was all but best friends with Osama Bin Laden.  If you look into it, there is truly no link between the two.  I do know that Saddam Hussein was a horrible dictator, but let’s try to keep our eye on the ball.  He was in no way linked to 9/11.  It does no one any good to follow blindly the lies that were spoon fed to all of us.
And, PS: I dont think Bush is “gung-ho”, I just think he’s both inadequate and completely detached from what is really going on with 90% of the country. He is letting this country go down the toilet while his friends get rich.  And he’s doing it while claiming to have the moral high ground.  That would have to be the bloodiest set of morals I have ever seen.

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By John Hanks, February 7, 2007 at 1:34 pm Link to this comment
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Lower middle class education leaves people dumb enough to have opinions, but not courageous enough to test them.

Rich traitor trash with lower middle class values promote nothing but a host of evils, from education as indoctrination to religion as idol worship. 

There is no difference between Islam-Fascism and Republican Fascism.  They are both vicious and subversive whether they have a lot of money or not.  If Jesus met the “Christians” in this country, he would instantly see them to be the bone heads and phonies that they are.  I like to think that he might reach for a revolver.

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By Skruff, February 7, 2007 at 8:34 am Link to this comment
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Comment #52050 by Crissa on 2/06 at 2:19 pm

The mounting despair rippling across the United States, one I witnessed repeatedly as I traveled the country, remains unaddressed by the Democratic Party, which has abandoned the working class, like its Republican counterpart, for massive corporate funding.

This is a falshood.

Please retract the statement or find support for it.

So what’s false?

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By Jeff Badura, February 7, 2007 at 7:40 am Link to this comment
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view from a neo-con

Skruff -yes the KKK hide behind Christianity but you cant paint all Christians with that brush ?? come on guys ??

Crissa- you are right on target !!! the article was full of batten falsehoods, the far let socialist’s always piss and moan of the terrible economic plight of the masses and its pure fantasy !! it helps drive their hate of capitalism! a capitalism, that has given us Americans in the late 20th century a standard of living unequaled by anyone in the long history of mankind !! there favorite line “the rich are getting richer” a purely bigoted class warfare statement that points out their hate for others success !!

and my friendd Eleanore, sorry, didn’t mean to change the subject on you ??? Q- how can fair minded people advocate the killing of the unborn child and call it “women’s rights” ?? sounds allot like Southern Civil War talk “States Rights” when speaking of slavery ???

as far a the war on Islamic extremists goes, remember 9/11 !!!  that’s was no invention !! no Saddam was not directly to blame for 9/11 but we don’t live in a vacuum the middle east is a cauldron of hate and Saddam was right in the middle of it !!! Hitler didn’t attack us at Pearl Harbor nor did Italy or Romania but we went to war with all !!

Saddam used WMD’s on the Iranian and Kurds so to say he didn’t have them is fantasy !! he just didn’t have them when we invaded !! or we haven’t found them yet ?? i say we should look in Syria ???

and yes I’m going to really ruin your day!! the bombing of Iran is right around the corner, and say “good” !!!

by the way ?? you guys think Bush is gung-ho ??? wait till McCain is your Commander and Chief,  cause y’all ain’t see nuttin yet !!  ha ha ha ha ha

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By Anna, February 6, 2007 at 9:55 pm Link to this comment
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I would like to ask, to those who are in such support of the religious-based legislation in our government today, how you can defend attitudes of such entitlement and such intolerance?  We live in a country that was founded on religious freedom, the seperation of church and state.  Despite these rights to freedom, those leading the strong, right-winged religious movement, act as though it is both their right and moreover their obligation to decide what is morally acceptable for the masses,(ie: gay marriages, abortion, etc). A similar ideology has been practiced before, and was known as the “White Man’s Burden”. We read about it now in history books and are mortifed, but don’t realize that it is going on right in front of us, in over 90% of the country. If you want to live in a religious state, instead of forcing regression, go move to Iran.
In addition, for claiming to have the moral high ground by opposing same sex marriages, have you ever asked yourselves what kind of God would be so intolerant of those who are different?  What kind of God judges that which he doesnt understand b/c it is different?  Even so, even if that is the case, which no one on this earth will ever know, it is not up to any of us to make our religious beliefs law. Again, if you’d like to live in a country where religion is law, go move to Iran.

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By roxie, February 6, 2007 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment
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Yes, let’s do talk about reality. The popular vote is irrelevant by law. You don’t win a football game by piling up more yardage. You win by scoring more points. See how that works? Similarly, you win the presidency by winning in the Electoral College. That’s the way the founders wrote the Constitution. There is a good reason for it. The small states needed a reason to enter the union. Now, the 500 votes was contested. The Supreme Court ruled that Bush won. Get over it.

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By D L, February 6, 2007 at 5:42 pm Link to this comment
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Jnagarva #50798 wrote “David Barton is a fraud, and has admitted it. “ Please cite reference to this amazing revelation! Somehow, I think Mr. Baron is unaware of it.
Certainly, one needn’t limit to Barton’s works (which cite original documents for checking his work), go to the preambles of each State’s constitution. Awful lot of mentions of the God of the Bible for the country to not have a history based on Christianity.
Are we reading the same First Amendment? Of the US Constitution? Because when I read it, it is denying the Federal Government the right to impose a *national* religion. Furthermore, the First Amendment does not limit citizens from choosing religions in their respective States, nor from candidates having religious motives, nor from using Biblical principles as basis for laws, etc.
Our human rights in this country have been established by those so-called “fundamentalist Christians.” What other religion has done as much to protect women’s rights, the value of children, the dignity of older people, the right to dissent, to assemble, and the right to own private property?

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By AMOS_HART, February 6, 2007 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment
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Hedges cites a grand total of ONE person by name in his paranoid diatribe and NO pertinent references. Do we just take his word for it, as from GOD himself, or are we entitled to an occasional verifiable fact? He talks about “mounting despair rippling across the United States,” “fantastic visions of angels and miracles,” the Christian right “calling for a Christian State,” “a dark license to kill..those at home who refuse to submit to the movement,” etc. These charges, like reports of UFO’s, should be presumed false until supported with convincing evidence specifying the who, what, where, and when of responsible journalism. Pat Robertson is a patriot who has NEVER called for a CHANGE in our republican form of government - he DOES NOT advocate theonomy. He does promote Christian values and beliefs, as is his constitutional right, just as it is Hedges’ right to promote a Marxist view of human nature and aspirations. I suggest that religious views play a markedly less important role in American life today than they did two-hundred or even a hundred years ago. For proof, you need only look at modern culture. What is openly tolerated today was simply not allowed as a matter of law, e.g., abortion, pornography, homosexuality. Far from advocating a “Christian state,” the “Christian right” simply wishes to stop the headlong plunge into debauchery and depravity that we have seen over the past 50 years. And they wish to do it democratically, i.e., by the ballot box and by exercise of their constitutional rights to free speech. Hedges polemic is as far off the mark as it is a case of lousy journalism. He should know better. Shame on him

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By cultcounselor, February 6, 2007 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment
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The great Nazi of propagana Goebbels, said…

“There are two ways to make a revolution: One can fire at the opponent with machine guns until he recognizes the superiority of those who have the guns. That is the simiplist way. One can also transform a nation through a revolution of the spirit, not destroying the opponent, but, winning him over. We National Socialist have gone the second way and will continue on it. Our first task in this minsitry will be to win the whole people for the new state. We want to replace liberal thinking with a sence of community that includes the whole people”.

Replace liberal thinking with a sence of community
that includes whole people? And what community of “whole people” might that have been since Goebbels did not include Jews, anyone of color, gays in the new state?

And what is the definition of a liberal thinker?
A liberal, defined by my dictonary, is a person who is not intolerant or prejudice; broad-minded, generosity, not literal or strict interpretation.
A thinker, defined by my dictonary, a person of powerful mind who devotes him/herself to abstract thought.

And the Fundementalist Right has no agenda to remove/replace liberals, secularist, gays to dismantle the constitution, the courts, gut laws replacing all with their own version of biblical law? It seems to me that I hear Fundies consistantly use words and catch-phrases that indicate the opposite, such as cultural war, war on morality, war on christmas, and other assorted terms of battle hurled all who do not agree with their beliefs. Sounds as if they mean to destroy their opponents (liberals) by declaring war via some “spiritual battle” if they can’t convert them ...sounds Goebbelish to me’...walks like a duck, talks like a duck and it’s being floated in our media to see if it will float like a duck.

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By Eleanore Kjellberg, February 6, 2007 at 3:47 pm Link to this comment
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“as far as Bush stealing the elections ??  this is a perfect example of progressives inability to face facts!! Gore challenged the results in the court they recounted the votes more than once but that wasn’t enough he wanted endless recounts until the results favored him and the Supreme Court put an end to it !!”

Let’s talk about reality and not Right Wing Fantasy: “George Bush lost the popular election by 500,000 votes, but won the electoral vote by winning hotly contested Florida, where his brother Jeb is governor.

His tiny 500-vote win there was accompanied by a torrent of hanging chads and unhappy voters, who claimed their votes, were stolen.”

It’s interesting that I am discussing women’s rights and you bring up the war on terror and conspiracy theorists—-this is so typical.  One thing that we can say about the “Right,” is their skill at propaganda—-it has really improved, they know how to change the subject, use illogical reasoning, and if all else fails character assassination.

The Right Wing always has a new enemy to destroy and a military to expand, first the imaginary WMDS in Iraq and now the nuclear threat of Iran.

“First, claim that Saddam is “linked” to terrorists (whatever “linked” actually means is not important.) Also claim that terrorists are responsible for the September 11 attacks. What’s the implied-but-unstated conclusion drawn from these two claims? That Saddam Hussein is responsible for September 11, of course! “

Actually the Right Wing ideologues live in the world of Oz, and their Wizard is nothing but an old fat Cheney creeping around the White House.

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By Crissa, February 6, 2007 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment
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The mounting despair rippling across the United States, one I witnessed repeatedly as I traveled the country, remains unaddressed by the Democratic Party, which has abandoned the working class, like its Republican counterpart, for massive corporate funding.

This is a falshood.

Please retract the statement or find support for it.

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By Skruff, February 6, 2007 at 11:27 am Link to this comment
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Comment #51918 by Jeff Badura on 2/06 at 6:38 am says:

look i don’t always agree with the christian right but there not Nazis or anything close to them !!

KKK stands for Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, a group of white, Christian supremists. Up until the late 60s the KKK was responsible for harassment and attacks against people of color or non-Christian religion. Members can be easily identified by the white robes they wear and a tall white mask, which looks like a ghost.

In the name of Jesus they tortured and murdered Jews, Blacks, and immigrants.

Although the KKK is but a tepid image of its former legion, there are still several thousand self-identified Klansmen remaining.  Mostly located in the deep South, but also some in the old rust-belt cities of the northeast.

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