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Sheinbaum: Carter’s ‘Apartheid’ Mistake

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Posted on Dec 22, 2006
Sheinbaum and Carter
Sheinbaum: Jewish Journal; Carter: Amazon.com

Stanley Sheinbaum and the cover of Jimmy Carter’s new book.

By Joshua Scheer

Truthdig speaks with the internationally renowned diplomat, peace activist and scholar Stanley Sheinbaum about Jimmy Carter’s controversial new book, “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.”

Sheinbaum has long been active in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. In 1988 he headed a nongovernmental delegation of five American Jews that succeeded in getting Yasser Arafat to recognize Israel and to disavow terrorism.

He has been a board member of the International Center for Peace in the Middle East in Tel Aviv since 1982 and a board member of Americans for Peace Now since 1988.

He was chairman of the American Civil Liberties Foundation of Southern California and a regent of the University of California.

Currently the publisher of New Perspectives Quarterly, Sheinbaum remains active in Mideast peace efforts, along with a host of other progressive issues. He speaks here with Truthdig research editor Joshua Scheer.

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Truthdig: What is your impression of the Jimmy Carter book?

Sheinbaum: Very serious, very intelligently written and laid out; putting in all sorts of components that were important to have included, such as the records of the various agreements that were made, starting way back in the first century and bringing it right up to date in about a dozen pages.

 
 

Truthdig: It’s called “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.”  How does this come up?

Sheinbaum: My take on it was that Carter was trying to use the concept of apartheid as a way of creating an interest in the problem, but not making an accusation about it, [not] that this was an apartheid scheme as we understand it from South Africa, but rather that there were components that should lead to a discussion and have Jews everywhere thinking about what the implications of the policy were.  And the major component, as you probably know, is the occupation of Palestinian lands, especially in the West Bank, which is not considered part of Israel, or hasn’t been.  But a number of Israelis and hard-line American Jews have wanted to consider it [a part of Israel].

Truthdig: Is Carter critical of the Palestinians and their involvement in bombings and actions of that sort?

Sheinbaum: Yeah, he gets into the question. Especially of Hamas, which he practically calls a terrorist organization.

Truthdig: Would you call it a balanced book?

Sheinbaum: Yes.

Truthdig: Some have criticized the book [as] not being historically accurate, that it lacks some facts. Did you find that to be true?

Sheinbaum: No.  As I said, he has a chronology going way back to the first century, with the various components, and bringing it up to the 21st century; various agreements that were made, [and] when they were not adhered to, when they were adhered to, and he is very articulate about that.

Truthdig: Some of his other books have been about a less controversial subject matter; do you think he knew what he was getting into when he wrote this book?

Sheinbaum: I think he made a serious mistake, to answer that question, when he applied the term “apartheid.”  He was hoping to use the concept of apartheid as something that would create a dialogue or a debate.  But instead, it created accusations against him, that he was equating what was going on in the occupied lands with what went on in South Africa.

Truthdig: So in your mind his only mistake was using the term “apartheid”?

Sheinbaum: Yes.

Truthdig: Is it a good book?

Sheinbaum: It’s a good book.

Truthdig: Did he recognize his role in possibly contributing to the creation of Al Qaeda, and therefore increasing terrorism, through his actions in Afghanistan when he was president of the United States, or was that not in the book?

Sheinbaum: I don’t recall that being in the book.

Truthdig: It’s interesting because of [Zbigniew] Brzezinski [the architect of the strategy of supporting the mujahedeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets; the Afghan “freedom fighters” later formed the Taliban]... .

Sheinbaum: Yeah, the one thing that sort of startled me was that he talks about Bill Clinton as having been determined to bring about peace between Palestinians and the Israelis. But then under Bill Clinton’s tenure, the Israelis occupied much of the West Bank.  And it’s almost as if Clinton sanctioned that.

Truthdig: Do you think Clinton did that?  Do you think that was a mistake in the book not to mention it?

Sheinbaum: No, I think that was a mistake on Clinton’s part.

Truthdig: You were intimately involved in the peace process.  Can you explain what you did, and would that method perhaps work today?

Sheinbaum: No, it’s not as easy today.  The tensions are greater, the divisions are greater, and the self-interest is stronger than ever, on both sides. The Israelis are moving into large areas of the West Bank, and for the Palestinians this is a hostile thing to do; it keeps them further from coming to terms with the Israelis.

Truthdig: How did you help to create peace, if only temporarily?

Sheinbaum: Well what I did, as you may know, I organized a group of five American Jews including myself, to go deal with Arafat, who was then the leader in some vague way of the Palestinians.  [We tried] to get him to accept ... Israel as a national state, and to disavow terrorism, which he did ... and that was a significant thing to do, and then there was a lot of pressure on him from the hard-line Palestinian side to back off.

Truthdig: Is that why the peace did not last?

Sheinbaum: It didn’t last ... because the intensity from the hard-line Palestinian side was very strong.

Truthdig: When you went to meet with Arafat, what was the reaction in the Jewish community?

Sheinbaum: Very negative.

Truthdig: Why was that?

Sheinbaum: At one point, when I got back, there where dead pigs thrown in my driveway.

Truthdig: Is there any way to take action toward peace without having such hate directed at you?

Sheinbaum: Well, anyone who talks to an enemy is himself an enemy.

Truthdig: Was this worth it to you?

Sheinbaum: Well, I got Arafat to accept the concept [of an Israeli state], and to disavow terrorism.

Truthdig: In your estimation, is there any politician out there today with a plan, or at least the courage to take on this issue and risk being labeled an anti-Semite?

Sheinbaum: I’m really not aware of anyone.

Truthdig: I’m still having a hard time understanding why people would be so opposed to your efforts to foster peace. Why would they call you a Jew-hater and an anti-Semite, especially since you are Jewish?

Sheinbaum: In political conflict you get these kinds of reactions. If they’re not on your side and there are political things at stake, then the antipathies are really very strong. 

Truthdig: This is a quagmire, probably the worst situation in the world. 

Sheinbaum: Oh yeah, this cannot go on.

Truthdig: What could fix the problem?  As you said, the divisions are great, so the peace efforts that worked before will likely not work again.  So what could work now?

Sheinbaum: There are tensions in the Middle East that are now very strong and could lead to explosions of an undetermined nature, and everything must be done to stop that. 

Truthdig: Do you have a plan for that yet?

Sheinbaum: No.

Truthdig: Are you working on one?

Sheinbaum: No, I’m not. ... I’m not allowed to travel anymore.  I have had some physical problems. ... And to get involved in an active way ... [when] you can’t travel—it’s almost impossible. I should say that I’m trying to keep in touch with those American and international Jews who think similarly to myself.

Truthdig: So you are still as active as you can be without being able to travel?

Sheinbaum: Yeah.

Truthdig: Do you think Carter’s book is a good attempt to try to find a peaceful solution?

Sheinbaum: Yeah, and I think it’s unfortunate that provocative term “apartheid” was included, because it’s turning people against the book.  People like Alan Dershowitz and Marty Peretz of The New Republic are misinterpreting it.

Truthdig: Dershowitz wrote that he was upset by Carter’s unwillingness to engage in a public debate.  Would you like to see a debate?

Sheinbaum: Sure.

Truthdig: So the “apartheid” term is really the key point here?

Sheinbaum: It’s the trigger.

Truthdig: They probably intended to use it to sell books, with that powerful word, and now it seems to have blown up in their face.

Sheinbaum: No, I don’t want to impute that motivation to him [Carter].  I think he was sincere; I don’t know him that well.  They may have been hoping that the term would trigger a debate.

Truthdig: And it obviously did.

Sheinbaum: Yeah, but to an extent those who are using it are trying to invalidate the book itself.

Truthdig: Thanks so much for your time.


New and Improved Comments

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By Righty, February 25, 2007 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
No one cares about U.N. resolutions. The U.N. is worthless. It is the United States which gives any legitimacy to the United Nations. Without the U.S. there is no functioning United Nations.
The U.N. is the most corrupt organization in this world and needs to be eliminated.
It is an anti-American/Anti-Jewish organization.
It is full of dictatorial countries who care nothing about the masses of little people in this world. They only care about supporting dictatorial regimes already in power.
Screw you and your corrupt U.N.

Report this

By Righty, February 25, 2007 at 7:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty:

If not for right wing Jews there would not be a Jewish religion or state of Israel today.
The right to the land is based on historical world history and biblical prophecy.
I cannot believe how blind you are to these facts.
What people in the history of this world have returned to the very same land they were exiled from for nearly 2,000 yrs ?  Answer: None !
Can you not see that the re-establishment of the state of Israel is biblical prophecy confirmed ?
Are you that blind to see this truth before your very eyes ? There has never been anything like this.
The ability for 5,000,000 Jews to survive in the midst of nearly 250,000,000 hostile Arab Muslims is a miracle by itself.
The truth is before you and the final prophecy will surely come true. That prophecy is that once the Jews were re-established in their land, that the nations of the world would once again try to take the land away. However, it will not be the Jews who will suffer but those nations who look to destroy the Jewish people and remove them from the land God gave them.
Lefty, you may be one who does not believe in God or biblical prophecy. However, if something so remote, as the re-establishment of the Jews in their land happens in accordance with 2,500 yr. old prophecy, then I would be a fool to view it as pure chance rather than confirmation of biblical prophecy.
Lefty, you can bet on that !

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By Tony Wicher, February 25, 2007 at 7:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55278 by Mad As Hell on 2/25 at 7:03 am

Mad old buddy,

Where in the world did you get the idea that I want Jews living in Israel to go anywhere? On the contrary, I want them to stay where they are (unless of course they want to move, in which case they are welcome to come to my country). I want them to live as Jews in what they regard as their homeland. I don’t even want those half million settlers in the West Bank to move. It’s just that they will have to learn to live with the fact that non-Jewish Palestinians have as much right to live there as they do, Palestinians who are their equals under the law in every way. If they can’t live with that, then, yes, they should go somewhere else where they would feel more comfortable.

What I want to do is extirpate the ideology of Zionism from the face of the earth, to throw it on the rubbish heap of history where it belongs. That does not mean that I want to harm the hair on the head of one single human being, or that I wish to displace one single human being from the place that he or she now occupies. It is the ideology of Zionism, that is Jewish nationalism, itself that is pernicious. I am attacking it only with facts and reason and my basic sense of humanity, not with bullets and bombs. Zionism is one form of racism. Racism is like love, it comes in so many wonderous forms. There is for example Arab nationalism, another race-based ideology of fear and hate. Zionism, Naziism, Arab nationalism - they all go together in a beautiful symphony of war, all side being egged on by equal opportunity exploiters and war profiteers.

So I’m not attacking you, Mad - just your belief system, just your narrow-minded ideology of Jewish nationalism, which, if you will only stop to think about it, is morally unsustainable. That’s not the same thing as attacking you as a human being. In fact, we have been exchanging views for months, and I’m starting to like you as a person. I hope you don’t mind.

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By Mad As Hell, February 25, 2007 at 8:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Wicher appears to be now supporting the total eradication of the Jewish people in the Middle East. He talks about the de-Zionification of Israel. Zionism was the concept of the Jewish people returning to its homeland. Israel is the reality of that dream. To attack and look to eradicate Zionism is just another tactic by those who look to destroy the Jewish people.
Tony, your true colors are now known”

I’m still trying to figure out why Tony isn’t advocating the de-Europeanization of the North and South America.  By HIS logic, we should all vacate Canada, the US, most of Mexico, Guatemala, Belize, El Salvador, Honduras, Panama, Columbia, Ecuador, Venezuela, Argentina, Chile, Brazil, Uruguay, Paraguay, Peru, and any other I forgot.

Only Bolivia would be excepted because El Presidente Evo Morales is Native American.

While we are at it, let’s force the Turks to vacate Turkey—they came from Central Asia.

And why not move the Russians out of what was Eastern Poland? They’ve only been there since the War.  And, in that neighbor hood, let’s move the Poles out of what was East Prussia…Gdansk where Lech Walesa led Solidarity from is really the German city Danzig.

Nor does Tony hold Israel’s Arab neighbors to the standard he holds Israel to. It’s perfectly OK for all of THEM to suppress minorities, both ethnic and religious.

It’s a double-standard, it’s hypocracy and the ONLY conclusion that can be inferred is a desire to see, yet again, another attempt to wipe Jews from the world.

As if that would solve anything. 

Tony also talks about a mythical democracy in this new “Palestine”. As if. 

The Arabs in the region won’t even let Arab Lebanon be a functioning democracy, which is the REAL model for Democracy in the Arab world—why would they let this fantasy Palestinian state be one?

Notice that Tony, Federer, Fadel, Big Al, Robert and Esther ALL refuse to address these issues…They have made up their minds and won’t let facts clutter up their conclusions.

When they start talking about vacating North and South America to give it back to the REAL owners from whom it was stolen, when they address why if Lebanon cannot be allowed to be Democratic, this mythical Palestine would be, THEN they’ll have something to say.

Until then holding the Jews to a standard NOBODY ELSE is held to MUST be deemed anti-semitism. There is no other rational inference.

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By Tony Wicher, February 25, 2007 at 4:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Comment #55222 by Righty on 2/24 at 8:10 pm

Wicher appears to be now supporting the total eradication of the Jewish people in the Middle East. He talks about the de-Zionification of Israel. Zionism was the concept of the Jewish people returning to its homeland. Israel is the reality of that dream. To attack and look to eradicate Zionism is just another tactic by those who look to destroy the Jewish people.
Tony, your true colors are now known.”
***********************************************
Sir,

My true colors have never been in any question. I stand for democracy and human rights. Those are my colors. Zionism is against both. I consider it the ideological twin of Naziism, born about the same time, a pernicious ideology of racism and hate. Decent Jews everywhere should lead the rest of the world in condemning it. Therefore I say that what is needed is the de-Zionification of Israel, just as what was needed was a de-Nazification of Germany at the end of WW II. Germans are real democrats now. They can smell Zionist racism better than anyone.

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By Tony Wicher, February 24, 2007 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply Comment #55065 by Righty on 2/23 at 12:47 pm

Wow! You sound like an honest man. I disagree with your theology, because I do not think there is any close correspondence between the Bible and actual history. I regard it as a series of legends and myths and poems and stories, that of course do bear some relationship to the history of the people from which they sprang, as do the stories of Homer, the Koran, the legends of ancient Egypt, and so on. They cannot be taken AS history. You cannot tie your understanding of the divine to a book. Someone else will tie it to some other book, or some other translation or interpretation of the one you read, and the result is war, which is the very antithesis of religion, which means “to bind together”, not to divide.

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By Righty, February 24, 2007 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Wicher appears to be now supporting the total eradication of the Jewish people in the Middle East. He talks about the de-Zionification of Israel. Zionism was the concept of the Jewish people returning to its homeland. Israel is the reality of that dream. To attack and look to eradicate Zionism is just another tactic by those who look to destroy the Jewish people.
Tony, your true colors are now known.

Report this

By Lefty, February 24, 2007 at 1:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Righty:

First, there can be no bigger fool in the world than a right-wing Jew.  When the American fascists have had enough of you, you will be the first one they test their new gas chamber on.  Second, biblical prophecies are 1) bullshit and 2) irrelevant, and anyone who thinks that biblical prophecies have any basis in reality is either an idiot or a psychopath. 

Once again:

What is relevant is that, before the Nation of Israel existed, the land was in the possession of the British military.  There was no nation there, there was no government, there was no sovereignty, there were only a few Jews and lots of Arabs with no ambition to expel the British make anything more out of the land than it was.

With the help of Jewish refugees from the holocaust, and monetary donations from Jews in the U.S., the existing Jews forced out the British military and establish, for the first time in almost 2,000 years, a sovereign nation on that land.  The fact that the residing Arabs vacated their homes, either because, as some have said they feared the same treatment from the Jews that they gave to the Jews when Jews were in the minority, or because Arabs are such primitive, tribalistic, bigots (my opinion), that they cannot bear to live among Jews who are smarter, more educated, more ambitious, more enterprising, more visionary than they are, is also IRRELEVANT now.

The nation of Israel has now been in existence for almost as long as many of it’s neighboring Arab nations.  Israel is a sovereign nation with the right to conduct its business as it chooses.  Right now, Israel correctly chooses to segregate the Arabs among them because so many of them are terrorists, suicide bombers and supports of same, that it would be a breach of Israel’s sovereign duty to protect its citizens from these murderous attacks not to.

To compare this with South African apartheid or European ghettos is intellectually dishonest - the currency of Arab propaganda.  Black Africans were segregated by Dutch and English whites because they hated blacks so intensely, not because the blacks were a threat to white safety.  Likewise, the Jews in segregated Europe were confined to Ghettos, not because they were a threat to the safety of Christians, but because the Christians knew - FROM EXPERIENCE - that they could not compete with Jews on a level playing field in an open and fair market place, so they, in effect, put them in jail.

Conversely, the Jews in Israel segregate the Arabs, not because they hate Arabs, or because they cannot compete with them in the market place on a level playing field (LOL, Israel should only be so fortunate that the Arabs would be so educated and ambitious), but because the Arabs hate the Jews and are a threat to their safety.
———————————————————————

To Tony:

There is no country of Palestine, there never has been, and there is no such thing as a Palestinian.  Having said that, if there ever is to be a Palestine - which would have to be exclusive of Israel - it will be up to the Arabs who seek a Palestinian country based on their ability and willingness to demonstrate through deeds that they can live side by side with Israel, in peace.  If not, I doubt that, for the very first time in human history, that any such nation called Palestine will ever exist.

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By Tony Wicher, February 23, 2007 at 8:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55049 by Federer on 2/23 at 9:30 am

Federer,

Apparently unlike Jimmy Carter, I think both of us want to address the Palestinian’s feeling that their whole country is under occupation, not just the parts currently called “occupied territories”. Therefore I am not sure that pressing for “withdrawal from the occupied territories” is the best use of our energies, even though this is what is supported by past U.N. resolutions. Part of the point of the One Democratic State perspective is that conditions have changed since that series of resolutions as Israelis have proceeded with their relentless policy of ethnic cleansing by creating irreversible “facts on the ground”. There are nearly a half million settlers now with infrastructure to support them. Therefore it is time to shift strategy, time for a paradigm change. Instead of talking about a physical withdrawal like this, let’s talk about a withdrawal of the ideology and practice of Zionism from the land as a whole. The de-Zionification of Israel. Do you like the sound of it? Zionism is the root of the problem. Zionism is undemocratic. It is morally wrong. That is what is not negotiable. Without Zionism all things are possible. 

I appreciate your insignt very much. Please send me your email address so we may continue to correspond if this thread ends.

Mine is .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 23, 2007 at 3:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Federer, Comment # 54821
 
Thanks a million for your reasoned response to Tony Wicher and for the other reasoned, well-documented comments since you joined this thread.

So far, I think you’re the most informed person to post on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, and my personal life, as well as those of all Palestinians and peace- loving Jews are better for it. May you be amply rewarded for your efforts in the service of peace and justice.

Though I consider Tony Wicher to be on the side of justice and truth, sometimes his ideas are too idealistic and removed from reality. In the past he tried to press me to agreeing with him on giving the Israelis “Greater Israel,” as he put it, in exchange for the Palestinians to be full-fledged citizens in one democratic state. I told him that it would be anathema for most Palestinians to live under the name of Israel, even it was the most just and democratic state in the whole world. It seems that he has not given up on his idealism, and I hope that you message would convince him to be more realistic.
 
It’s great honor and pleasure Federer to have you as a comrade for truth and justice, which is the only road leading to peace.

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By Righty, February 23, 2007 at 1:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty:

Bottom line, If you don’t believe in biblical prophecy then the Jews have no legitimate right to the land they now occupy.
Your position totally fails and you are the one that is full of crap. 
It is only biblical Jewish history that gives them a right to that land.
The prophets of ancient Israel have indeed predicted all that happened and is happening.
This is fact Lefty. To deny it is foolish.
Again, without the biblical right to the land the Jews have no right to it at all.
I would agree with the Arabs that your position is ridiculus, in supporting a Jewish state, that has no historical support for it.
Only by the word of God do the Jews claim their right to that land.

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By Federer, February 23, 2007 at 10:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony: The final outcome (fully democratic Israel, fully Jewish Israel, binational state, two-state, etc.) should result from applying international law and justice to resolve the conflict. Ideally, all Palestinians—including refugees mostly from Israel’s systematic ethnic cleansings which started before May 1948—must finally be able to exercise their international legal right of self-determination. This basic right is recognized by UN Charter Article 1(2) as well as by the World Court in its Namibia and Western Sahara advisory opinions. For almost 90 years, this right has been denied by the Zionists/Israel and certain major powers.

Israel has no rights to the Occupied Palestinian Territories, only responsibilities as the occupying power. Its main responsibility is to end ASAP its belligerent military occupation—considered an undesirable and temporary regime in international law—and to withdraw quickly from all occupied land according to the wishes of the occupied population and to UN resolutions.

If South Africa and Indonesia can do it, so can Israel. Namibia got its independence from South Africa and East Timor from Indonesia. Like other occupied nations, both Namibia and East Timor also had violent resistance groups—SWAPO and FALINTIL—to resist their unwelcome occupiers. Yet relative peace was achieved through UN involvement. For example, in 1999, East Timor began its move from Indonesian occupation (since 1975) toward full independence in 2002. In August 1999, the East Timorese exercised their right to self-determination and voted for full independence from Indonesia. Within three weeks—following violence instigated by the Indonesian military and pro-Indonesia militias while East Timor still remained under Indonesian occupation—the UN deployed an International Force for East Timor (INTERFET) consisting of 8,000 peacekeeping troops to stop the violence. They maintained the peace and were a buffer between Indonesia and the East Timorese, allowing the latter to develop their independence more peacefully. If the UN forced Israel to immediately end its occupation, certain UN member states would likely be motivated to immediately deploy peacekeepers inside Palestine.

In his excellent book “Palestine, Palestinians and International Law”, Prof. Francis Boyle explained how to end Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian territory: After 40 years of “grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 and the Hague Regulations of 1907, the continued occupation of the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip by Israel stands in explicit violation of UN Security Council Resolutions 242 (1967) and 338 (1973), the General Assembly Partition Resolution 181 (II) of 1947, the Mandate for Palestine, League (of Nations) Covenant article 22, and UN Charter article 80 (1), inter alia, and is therefore invalid under international law and an obstacle to the implementation of the Palestinian peoples’ right to self determination.” As well, the UN General Assembly could use the World Court’s series of advisory opinions with respect to South West Africa (Namibia was only a Class C mandate while Palestine was a Class A mandate) and affirm the UN General Assembly is the legitimate successor to the League of Nations Council with respect to supervising the League-mandated territory of Palestine. Thereafter the General Assembly could act to formally recognize the independent state of Palestine (whether based on the 1947 partition plan, 1967 Green Line, etc.) or propose other solutions (e.g., a democratic binational state, etc.).
http://www.counterpunch.org/boylebiglie.html

The UN General Assembly should direct the World Court to provide an advisory opinion on how to resolve the conflict. Without a clear framework, the US would try to influence the weaker or more pro-Israel members of the UN General Assembly to support an unfair settlement solution in Israel’s favor, as happened in voting on the 1947 partition plan.

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By Robert, February 23, 2007 at 12:37 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Well “Pardners” its almost the end of the “TRUTH DRIVE” for this forum!

For those who believed in & supported the TRUTH, Human Rights, Justice, Humanity, Democracy, Freedom, for “ALL” people,...and many more noble causes…I just want to say many sincere thanks for all your efforts, genuine care & persistence.

Your TRUTH, information & references have been very informative.

ITS IMPOSSIBLE TO REFUTE THE TRUTH!

See ye all at the next “TRUTH TRAIL” Pardners!

Love you all & God Bless.

Robert

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By Righty, February 22, 2007 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Federer:

You are a backer of Arab Muslim terrorism and hate towards Jews.
Your type has been seen before and your type will never again be allowed to persecute the Jewish people.
Keep on writing your Anti-Jewish hate messages. What goes around comes around you white European supremacist.
I am sure you will get yours in the end.

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By Eli, February 22, 2007 at 4:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:

No nation on Earth has been more successful than the Jews in Israel of building up a country from total nothingness to the modern state it now is. In the 2,000 years that the land was occupied by foreign powers, not one of them was able to make that land flourish. Only when the Jews returned to their land did it once again prosper.
Israel is one of the most advanced technological societies in the world, and this in just 59 years.
The Arabs had nothing to do with the formation of this advanced Israeli society. In fact, they have tried to hinder and destroy it over the last 59 years.
Your comments are worthless anti-Jewish propaganda. You can only condemn the Jews.
You are a worthless human being who only harbors hate for a people you know nothing about and has done nothing to you.
You are a phony white European supremacist and may you be the recipient of your own hate toward the Jewish people.

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By Federer, February 22, 2007 at 1:15 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony: Your proposed strategy has many good merits, provided the proud Palestinians are willing to swallow their pride and forego their political, cultural and ancestral attachment to Palestine for an Israel future. Practically, there is no reason why the current state of Israel plus the OPT—almost 27,000 sq. km—could not successfully absorb all occupied and refugee Palestinians wanting to return (others would be compensated by Israel under the terms of UN resolution 194 [III]) as well as new Jewish immigrants. Hong Kong (about 1,000 sq km and 7 million people) and Singapore (about 700 sq. km and 5 million people) are two countries that are much smaller yet highly populated and more resource deficient but more successful than Israel in many respects, even without massive international aid. Even Luxembourg.

However, the idea runs counter to the core of Zionism: A Jewish State run primarily by Jews, primarily for Jews. This ideology and values originally drove the Zionist leaders to devise plans to systematically ethnic cleanse the Palestinians and expropriate their land. Israeli leaders would use whatever influence and tactics they have to kill your strategy since it would kill their dream of an exclusivist Jewish state.
http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann01262006.html

And, unfortunately, your worthy strategy would probably be rejected by most US politicians. Current political realities in the US block even consideration of ideas contrary to those of the Israeli government and the major Israel lobbies such as AIPAC. It does not matter much if the politician is a Democrat or Republican, or if an idea had great merit. Under Bill Clinton’s watch, the US was highly pro-Israel (e.g., Israel massively expanded its illegal settler population and settlements) despite Clinton’s rhetoric. Most of Congress is more pro-Israel than perhaps even the Knesset (which at least has a few more Arab and moral-minded Jewish members to its credit). Last July, for example, the U.S. House of Representatives voted to unconditionally endorse Israel’s ongoing attacks on Lebanon and the Gaza Strip by an overwhelming 410-8 margin. These politicians operate in an environment where the average American receives skewed coverage of the Israel-Palestine conflict.
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2007/02/20/dems_disdain_for_palestine.php
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0725-21.htm
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/report_cards.html

Will Obama be principled or join his colleagues who are pigs at the trough of the Israel lobbies? I think Obama will soon be making policy announcements on the issue. If this Haaretz report is any indication, Obama has already decided. “Sen. Obama: U.S. must support Israel’s right to self defense: In his speech, Obama intends to remove any doubts that the Democratic Party’s donors and constituents, many of whom are Jewish, may have about his support for Israel.” But if Obama does not toe the line, I expect AIPAC, certain evangelical Christian groups and the other Israel lobbies to mount a massive campaign to discredit Obama—within days, his unborn children and grandchildren will be exposed as anti-Semites tattooed with a map showing Israel wiped off it.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/826665.html

It is disappointing how one-sided US politicians have become. There was actually a period in the mid-1950s when the US was a little more even-handed. At the time, the US often joined other UN Security Council or General Assembly members in condemning Israeli attacks on bordering Arab villages (e.g., Qibya in 1953) as well as on Egypt in 1956 and Syria in 1955. In 1956, President Eisenhower pressured Israel to withdraw its forces from the Egyptian Sinai and accept UN peacekeepers there. In 1953, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles suspended aid to Israel for a short while because it was trying to illegally divert the waters of the Jordan river to irrigate the Negev.

Still, you never know until you try. Good luck.

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By Tony Wicher, February 21, 2007 at 11:08 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #54568 by Righty on 2/20 at 4:46 pm

Tony Wicher:

“Your plan sounds good but again not a real option. The Arab Muslim states would never agree to it. The financing would run into the trillions to absorb all these poor arab immigrants into Israel and resettle them. The entire infrastructure of Israel would have to be doubled in size. The United States taxpayer has no intentions to pay for your plan.”
********************************************
It will not cost “trillions” of dollars to resettle three or four million people. Even if you spent $50,000 for every man, woman and child, which I suspect is far more than is really necessary, 4,000,000 times 50,000 equals 200,000,000,000 or two hundred billion. That’s a fraction of the cost of the Iraq war so far. Why shouldn’t the American taxpayer support this? We should try spending money on peace instead of war for a change. But of course I would not expect the U.S. to have to shoulder this burden alone. On the contrary, I would expect Saudi Arabia and other wealthy Arab countries to be willing to offer substantial help in connection with a regional Middle East peace conference.

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By Tony Wicher, February 21, 2007 at 10:47 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #54624 by Robert on 2/20 at 10:50 pm

Thanks, Robert. Excellent post.

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By Robert, February 20, 2007 at 11:50 pm Link to this comment
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“ONE OF THE FEW VIDEOS THAT GOT AWAY FROM THE ISRAELI CENSORS”


“When CBC News spoke with Ismail Hawarjeh at Bethlehem’s hospital earlier this month, there was no way to verify the story he told about how his wife had died, until Israel’s Channel 2 broadcast the tape last weekend. The Palestinian school administrator said his wife Huda had been killed in their home by an Israeli tank shell during the army’s March 8 assault on the Aida refugee camp. The army wouldn’t comment and foreign journalist weren’t allowed inside the camp.

But the Israeli media were allowed to ride along with the soldiers, and they went right into the Hawarjeh home. An Israeli camera recorded the army blowing off the door, and found Huda Hawarjeh bleeding on the floor.

The pictures conformed to Ismail Hawarjeh’s story about his wife being hit by shrapnel in the front hallway of the house, and about the Israeli soldiers doing little to help her for one hour while she bled to death in front of her five children.

Finally, the soldiers allowed an ambulance to come to a nearby street, and soldiers helped Hawarjeh carry his wife to it. Doctors tried to revive her at the hospital but couldn’t.

Huda Hawarjeh was one of seven people to die in the Bethlehem area that day.

The Israeli army allows the media such close access on the understanding it can embargo anything it doesn’t want broadcast.

The tapes of the assault on the Hawarjeh home fell into that category. But Channel 2 broke the embargo anyway.

The army, government and many Israeli citizens didn’t like what they saw.

Channel 2 showed Hawarjeh begging soldiers to allow an ambulance through. The camera captured the terror of the woman’s daughter, and her brother’s attempt to stop her from showing the soldiers her fear.”
==================================================

SO LONG AS “NO FOREIGN JOURNALISTS” ARE ALLOWED TO RECORD ISRAEL’S IDF SOLDIERS TERROR CRIMES, THEN ALL MUST BE OK WITH THE KILLINGS OF INNOCENT PALESTINIAN WOMEN & CHILDREN. NO ONE CAN FIND OUT ABOUT & NO ONE CAN PROVE IT!


Here is the link to Israel’s IDF soldiers inflicting terror & murder on un-armed Palestinian civilians.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=897

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By Geronimo, February 20, 2007 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment
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Zionism = colonialism = racism,  past persecution of the Jewish people (including but not limited to the Crusades, Inquisition and the Holocaust) notwithstanding.  And pointing this out is not anti-Semitic, any more than saying that Naziism led to genocide is anti-German.  Zionists resent being called racists, claiming some sort of immunity from this affliction on account of lessons learned from having been one of history’s “favorite” scapegoats.  Alas,  any previously learned lessons that related to the Golden Rule seem to be forgotten the minute the formerly persecuted European Jews settled down in Palestine on someone else’s homeland. Goes to show that colonialism can make racists of us all.

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By Lefty, February 20, 2007 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment
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Once again:

“To compare this with South African apartheid or European ghettos is intellectually dishonest - the currency of Arab propaganda.  Black Africans were segregated by Dutch and English whites because they hated blacks so intensely, not because the blacks were a threat to white safety.  Likewise, the Jews in segregated Europe were confined to Ghettos, not because they were a threat to the safety of Christians, but because the Christians knew - FROM EXPERIENCE - that they could not compete with Jews on a level playing field in an open and fair market place, so they, in effect, put them in jail.

“Conversely, the Jews in Israel segregate the Arabs, not because they hate Arabs, or because they cannot compete with them in the market place on a level playing field (LOL, Israel should only be so fortunate that the Arabs would be so educated and ambitious), but because the Arabs hate the Jews and are a threat to their safety.”

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By Jimmy, February 20, 2007 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment
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Tony:

Nothing is being done to the Palestinians by Israel. The Israelis only react to Arab Muslim murderous aggression against their civilian population.
The Palestinians are their own worse enemy. They cannot even elect a government that can truly deal with Israel on the question of statehood.
The Arabs are culturally tribal and seem to be unable to unify their efforts to achieve statehood & a lasting peace with Israel.  When they are not fighting Jews & Christians they are fighting each other.
Suggest the Palestinian Arab Muslims get their act together if they want to become a democratic multi-cultural democracy. “LOL”

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By Righty, February 20, 2007 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment
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Tony Wicher:

Your plan sounds good but again not a real option.
The Arab Muslim states would never agree to it.
The financing would run into the trillions to absorb all these poor arab immigrants into Israel and resettle them. The entire infrastructure of Israel would have to be doubled in size.
The United States taxpayer has no intentions to pay for your plan. The oil rich Arab countries have no intentions to pay for your plan. No other country or countries in this world have any intentions to pay for your plan.
The only one who will have to pay for your plan is the tiny country of Israel. Your plan is dead in the water because no one is going to give Israel trillions of dollars to build up its infrastructure to support the 3 to 5 million Arabs that would be returning.
Also, the U.S. is now very weak due to its failure in Iraq. It can no longer assure Israel that it will be able to back up its promises in that part of the world.
Israel has no choice but to go ahead with the 2 state solution. It is the only reasonable solution.
Let the new democratic Palestinian state be funded by their rich Arab brothers and other interested countries. Israel would not be getting funds and thus no objections would be made by the rest of the world.
Now that sounds like a good plan.

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By Federer, February 19, 2007 at 11:59 pm Link to this comment
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Tony, Robert and Fadel: As the Times noted, “Israel is backed by army of cyber-soldiers” who have been inundating major blog sites, newspapers, television and radio shows.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,174-2289232,00.html
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.blogspot.com/2006/07/100000-whiners-for-war-crimes.html

When “Abraham Ibraham” puffs “you are both misguided fools who talk much and say nothing that deals with the reality of the Israeli/Arab conflict” he ignores the reality: the continuing large-scale robbery and expropriation of other people’s land and the continuing war crimes perpetrated by the Zionist Jews since before the 1948 founding of Israel. The Zionists implemented a pre-planned and systematic ethnic cleansing and military operation against the Palestinians to capture the 78% of land that the Zionist leadership most coveted. Read the UN link in my earlier post on what really happened almost 60 years ago. And then read Israeli historian Ilan Pappe’s book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Or Google for the palestine-studies.org link to read Ilan Pappe’s summary in the article “The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestine” in the Journal of Palestine Studies Issue 141 (Fall 2006).

Although “Rene” declares “you are not a Jew and have no idea what it is to be oppressed”, she is not a Palestinian and therefore has no idea what it is to be continually oppressed for 60 years by oppressors who keep reminding the world that they were once oppressed a long time ago. Just because you were abused as a kid does not give you the right to abuse other innocent people once you grow up. Read Sandy Tolan (former oral history consultant to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum): The Palestinian Catastrophe, Then And Now: Israel’s Ethnic Cleansing Of Palestinians
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=100409

When “Sheldon” fumes “take your hate act back to your radical Islamic pals” he should take his message of love to the Anglican Christian Bishop in Jerusalem, Bishop Riah, who explained: “For the past forty years we have been largely alone on this desert fighting a predator (i.e., Israel) that not only has robbed us of all but a small piece of our historic homeland, but threatens the traditions and holy sites of Christianity. We are tired, weary, sick, and wounded. We need your help…In Gaza, four and five generations have been victims of Israeli racism, hate crimes, terror, violence, and murder. . .” Palestinian Christians include descendents of the first Christians to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.
http://www.j-diocese.com/DiocesanNews/view.asp?selected=234#slbl234
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/christians.suffer.with.muslims.says.gaza.priest/8973.htm
http://www.bethlehem-city.org/news/22feb.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/cook01092007.html

Whenever “Charles” feels the urge to blurt “cut your anti-Jewish propaganda messages” and “your Anti-Jewish hate message”, he should meditate on my reply to Rene in comment #54029 on 2/16 at 1:39 pm. Charles also makes anti-Semitic comments when he conflates ‘Israeli policies that are war crimes or abusive’ with ‘Jews/Jewish’. Israel supporters like Charles and Rene harm all Jews outside Israel because they mislead the general public into believing that Jews = Israel. Thus whenever Israel bombs Lebanese or Palestinian civilians, the uninformed public falsely believes all Jews support such war crimes.

When “Rene” assumes “there is not a person, who considers themeself Jewish, who does not believe that there should be a state of Israel,” the orthodox Jewish rabbis on the site below would disagree. Until WW2, most Jews were anti-Zionist or non-Zionist—they were against the idea of founding a Jewish state at the time, partly because orthodox Judaism forbade it. As well, in a 2004 survey, about 36% of American Jews who responded said they were either ‘not very’ or ‘not at all’ emotionally attached to Israel.
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/index.cfm

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By NathanHale, February 19, 2007 at 7:38 pm Link to this comment
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Remember the USS Liberty!

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By Tony Wicher, February 19, 2007 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #54185 by Rene on 2/17 at 7:34 pm

“Tony Wicher:

I don’t see the Muslim Arabs willing to allow Israel to remain as a state.
To say that Israel “must give up their Jewish state”, and not also require that the Arabs give up their Islamic states,shows your anti-Jewish leanings.”

I guess this is goodbye, then, Rene. I think your position that Israel cannot be democratic unless various Muslims states become democracies is morally sleazy. If you and Israel were worth anything, you would set an example. Nothing justifies what Israel is doing to the Palestinians, not the Holocaust, not anything that any Arab government has ever done. Oppression of the Palestinians is something YOU are doing. Your actions defile you. Continue, then, with your miserable, isolated existence. Those who care about humanity will struggle on without you.

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By Tony Wicher, February 19, 2007 at 11:52 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #54313 by Federer on 2/19 at 12:59 am

I would like to propose to you a particular strategy to achieve our goals. Here it is: a referendum should be organized in the occupied territories, monitored by the Carter Center and other objective international observers. The referendum would ask the people if they would like to become Israeli citizens. The general conditions of this would be (1) the occupied territories would be officially recognized as part of Israel, (2) all laws favoring Jews over non-Jews would be abolished throughout Israel. This would of course be necessary for non-Jews to be full citizens. (3) New citizens living in the occupied territories would be treated the same as immigrant Jews, given the same government assistance for jobs, housing, schools, and infrastructure and resettled in communities elsewhere within Israel if they desire.

I propose to suggest this idea to Palestinian leadership as a strategy to put diplomatic pressure on the Israelis. If they agree with it, I am sure they can explain it to the people and get them to vote for it. Just suppose that a large majority voted to become Israeli citizens. It would get a lot of publicity for sure.  Now, what might happen when this comes to the notice of leading Democrats? I am currently with the Obama campaign, in various foreign policy discussion groups, trying to convince people that this is the way to go. Obama has a good record on civil rights lawyer, and though he has not been tested yet, he speaks like a man who might really believe in democracy. I have been telling people that when the Palestinians vote to become Israeli citizens, Obama should announce support for the Palestinian’s just and peaceful struggle for their civil rights. This would be part of a new, principled foreign policy for peace and democracy. At the same time he should announce opposition to Israeli apartheid, and that Israel should be treated similarly to South Africa, with some kind of economic boycott, until it agrees to end apartheid and comply international law. I don’t see how the Israelis could hold out if this were done. The diplomatic isolation would be intense. Also there would be many incentives for Israel to do go along, such as – full recognition by ALL countries of a “greater Israel” existing within recognized borders in the context of a regional peace conference, iron-clad guarantees of security from the United States, and very substantial financial help from the U.S. (and, I hope, a lot of Arab countries as well) in resettling the Palestinians with decent housing, jobs, farmland, or whatever they require. 


This is the general idea. What do you think of it? Is it practical? Could it actually be done? Please let me know what you think.

Tony Wicher

Ontario, California

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By Robert, February 19, 2007 at 4:08 am Link to this comment
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“The zionist Pack”

rene???/ken, Sheldon, prophet, Charles, Abraham


HERE COMES THE “ZIONIST PACK” SCREAMING & ATTACKING ANYONE WHO TELLS THE “TRUTH” ABOUT ISRAEL’S RACISM & APARTHEID SYSTEMS.

One notices the same synchronized, orchestrated & same worded “the jig is up” comments/posts. Its obvious that AIPAC’s “internet-megaphone” is alarming its attack dogs/members to get out there & defend zionism on this forum.

This poster “rene???” & the rest of the zionist pack are defending & advocating the worst forms of RACISM that is being enforced & practiced in Israel. I wonder what would they do if that same form of RACISM was applied on them in the U.S.!

Just for truth’s sake…I am NOT any of what you tried to apply/label me. You can quote “stenchy lefty” all you want. Your racist remarks are a reflection of your zionist’s racism & bigotry!!!

Why don’t you refute the facts, as well as, Federer’s facts? You are following that same ole zionist method for…character assassination. I assume all that you know is that 70 AD & 132 AD ancient zionist crap!

YOU CAN’T SILENCE THE TRUTH. ISRAEL’S BRUTAL RACISM & APARTHEID ARE WRONG. CHRISTIAN & MOSLEM ISRAELI CITIZENS ARE TREATED LIKE 3RD & 4TH CLASS CITIZENS…ALL BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT JEWISH! 

IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN…,ITS APPEARS THAT YOUR LOYALTY IS FOR ISRAEL MORE THAN THE USA!!!

Zionism is racism & of the worst kind!!!

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By Tony Wicher, February 19, 2007 at 3:36 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #54262 by Rene on 2/18 at 12:20 pm

“Robert:

I am indeed a 76 yr. old born and raised American citizen. You however are really an Arab Muslim radical as Lefty points out.
The jig is up, we know who you are.”

Rene, I had you figured for a 76-year-old lady. I was surprised when Robert said that. Pretty paraniod, Robert. On the other hand, I also believe Robert is really named Robert, and that he is an American who happens to sympathize with the Palestinians. Come on, people! You call this mature political discussion?

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By Federer, February 19, 2007 at 1:59 am Link to this comment
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Robert & Tony Wicher, TruthDig should collaborate on an article, a series or activity with:

- Prof. John Dugard, the UN’s ‘Special Rapporteur On The Situation Of Human Rights In The Palestinian Territories Occupied Since 1967’ (also a South African, international law professor, former World Court judge). Dugard has impeccable credentials and far deeper knowledge of the Israel’s war crimes and human rights abuses against the Palestinians than Israel’s army of cyber-soldier propagandists who have little or no substance, but hot air.
http://webcast.un.org/ramgen/conferences/hrc2006/two/hrc060929pm-eng.rm?start=00:04:34&end=00:14:42
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/5ba47a5c6cef541b802563e000493b8c/2e64a5d7f563f5468525720a0052603d!OpenDocument
http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/2session/docs/A_HRC_2_5.doc
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dugard.html

- And Prof. Jeff Halper: “The Problem With Israel. Let’s be honest (for once): The problem in the Middle East is not the Palestinian people, not Hamas, not the Arabs, not Hezbollah or the Iranians or the entire Muslim world. It’s us, the Israelis. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the single greatest cause of instability, extremism and violence in our region, is perhaps the simplest conflict in the world to resolve.”
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=306

One reason why there is little public pressure for a fair and just resolution of the Israel-Palestine conflict is public ignorance. There is no widely-available ‘Truthdig’ out there offering honest information on this conflict(nothing to do with this website site, of course).

Something is wrong if the general public is getting ‘radical’ information from an Israel-lite source such as Jimmy Carter (still courageous even for what he did). Reading Juan Cole’s website two days ago: “Carter’s book, by the way, is mostly just Christian Zionism. It ignores 1400 years of Muslim history in Palestine and Jerusalem, accepts Peters’s false thesis of significant in-migration of Arabs in the interwar period, and only dares raise some timid protests about the execrable treatment of the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories by Israeli occupiers and colonists…” and earlier “The lobby is drawing wagons around this one, even though Carter’s book is actually very biased toward Israel and makes historical errors in Israel’s favor…What is really being demanded by the Zionist expansionists is that Carter ignore the creeping Israeli colonization of the Palestinian West Bank, ignore the way in which Israel makes Palestinians’ lives miserable, ignore the datum that under Israeli occupation 15 percent of Palestinian children are malnourished. If he ignored all that, then he’d be being even-handed. The invocation of even-handedness is ironic. We all know what happened to Howard Dean when he even so much as suggested that the US play the role of honest broker in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.” The only issue I’d take with Juan Cole is that Carter displayed soft Christian Zionism, compared to those Christian Zionist hardliners in the US Congress.

Most people get the news on Israel-Palestine from reporters and anchors on CNN and other newsmedia who may be biased (see first link). As well, how objective are news reports from foreign journalists in Israel if, after they are wined and dined, they lack the fortitude of a Chris Hedges?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article17099.htm
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,429105,00.html

Are human rights reports able to provide the magnitude of the whole picture when international human rights groups decry increased harassment of their monitors, according to the eminent International Commission of Jurists? Can Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch be trusted to give the full truth, given alleged financial or political influence by pro-Israel lobbyists?
http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=2933&lang=en

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By Sheldon, February 18, 2007 at 2:47 pm Link to this comment
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Robert:

Yes, THE JIG IS INDEED UP !
Take your hate act back to your radical Islamic pals.
Good people all reject your kind.
May Allah inflict upon you your own hate and may your life be filled with misery & woe as your just reward.
Praise Allah

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By Rene, February 18, 2007 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert:

I am indeed a 76 yr. old born and raised American citizen. You however are really an Arab Muslim radical as Lefty points out.
The jig is up, we know who you are.

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By Abraham Ibraham, February 18, 2007 at 10:56 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Tony Wicher & Federer:

Who the hell are you to tell Jews and Muslims what they should do about the land they both claim is theirs ?
Keep your white liberal garbage confined to your immoral greedy western culture.
Democracy in and of itself does not bring peace and equality.Only when all sides agree to accept it can it work.
When one side refuses to be a multi-cultural democracy, and wishes to continue a Theocracy, who are you to tell them differently.
You don’t live there and if something goes wrong with your plan you are none the worse for it.
It is easy to tell other people how to live and what to do from behind a computer monitor.
You are both one big joke. You are both misguided fools who talk much and say nothing that deals with the reality of the Israeli/Arab conflict. That conflict is over one land and two different religions who will not accept the rule of the other. Therefore, a one state solution is out of the question. Only a two state solution is workable.
However you continue to oppose this and push your unrealistic one state solution.
All sensable parties realize a two state solution is the way to go including Jimmy Carter.
You and your European buddy, Federer, are two of a kind. Both of you think you are politically & morally correct. However, you don’t live in the Middle East and you are not fighting everyday to survive.
Both of you are anti-Jewish and this can be seen by your bully tactics against Jews but not Arab Muslims. It is the Jews who must give up their state but the Arabs can just go right on with their Islamic theocracies.
Both must be made to give up radical religious dogma. To demand that only one “must” do it and not the other, shows your prejudice against the one you demand it of.
Screw you both !
Never Again !
Oh yes, you see my name. My mother is Jewish and my father Arab Muslim. They are both not religious and believe in multi-cultural democracy. Yet they both see that the only road to peace is a two state solution, and once that is achieved, we can go from there to better relations, I agree.

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By Rene, February 17, 2007 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment
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Tony Wicher:

I don’t see the Muslim Arabs willing to allow Israel to remain as a state.
To say that Israel “must give up their Jewish state”, and not also require that the Arabs give up their Islamic states,shows your anti-Jewish leanings.
When I first came on this forum I thought you really wanted peace for Jews & Muslim Arabs. I have been reading your posts since that time and now see you only want peace for Muslim Arabs at the expense of Jews.
Tony, you are just another anti-Jewish voice and I have lost all respect for you.
I guess Lefty was right about you.
Bye

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By Rene, February 17, 2007 at 8:18 pm Link to this comment
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Federer:

There is not a person, who considers themeself Jewish, who does not believe that there should be a state of Israel.
After the Holocaust all Jews know they need a homeland they can return to.
That is fact. So when you attack the existence of Israel, as a Jewish homeland, you attack all Jews.
But you would not know this because you are not a Jew and have no idea what it is to be oppressed.
So don’t speak for them and keep your European anti-Jewish white supremacy thinking to yourself.

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By Charles, February 17, 2007 at 6:11 pm Link to this comment
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Federer:

Cut your anti-Jewish propaganda messages.
Your white bigoted South African attitude is all anyone needs to know to discredit your Anti-Jewish hate message on this forum.
You are just another European bastard who hates anyone that is not one of the good old boys.
You try to equate White Supremacy in South Africa with Jewish survival in its own land.
There is one thing that always gives away a person who acts as a “Propaganda Minister” for one side and that is denying that the otherside has a legitimate reason for its actions.
You see Israel as the problem and the Arabs as the victims. That is the way most Jew haters have seen the Jewish people throughout history.
You are no different Federer.
You give absolutely no right to the Jewish people to live in their own country without being governed by a majority Muslim Arab population who would only persecute them.
Persecution has been the history of humankind when it comes to dealing with the Jewish people.
The Jews will not allow it to happen again.
Nothing you say will make any difference in this regard.
That is something you can bet on !

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By Lefty, February 17, 2007 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment
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Re: Comment #53885 by The Prophet on 2/15 at 7:42 pm

Dear Mr./Ms. The Profit,

This is the reasoning of right wing fanatical Christian and Jewish psychopathic, nutbags.  These Biblical prophecies are 1) bullshit and 2) irrelevant.

What is relevant is that, before the Nation of Israel existed, the land was in the possession of the British military.  There was no nation there, there was no government, there was no sovereignty, there were only a few Jews and lots of Arabs with no ambition to expel the British make anything more out of the land than it was.

With the help of Jewish refugees from the holocaust, and monetary donations from Jews in the U.S., the existing Jews forced out the British military and establish, for the first time in almost 2,000 years, a sovereign nation on that land.  The fact that the residing Arabs vacated their homes, either because, as some have said they feared the same treatment from the Jews that they gave to the Jews when Jews were in the minority, or because Arabs are such primitive, tribalistic, bigots (my opinion), that they cannot bear to live among Jews who are smarter, more educated, more ambitious, more enterprising, more visionary than they are, is also IRRELEVANT now.

The nation of Israel has now been in existence for almost as long as many of it’s neighboring Arab nations.  Israel is a sovereign nation with the right to conduct its business as it chooses.  Right now, Israel correctly chooses to segregate the Arabs among them because so many of them are terrorists, suicide bombers and supports of same, that it would be a breach of Israel’s sovereign duty to protect its citizens from these murderous attacks not to.

To compare this with South African apartheid or European ghettos is intellectually dishonest - the currency of Arab propaganda.  Black Africans were segregated by Dutch and English whites because they hated blacks so intensely, not because the blacks were a threat to white safety.  Likewise, the Jews in segregated Europe were confined to Ghettos, not because they were a threat to the safety of Christians, but because the Christians knew - FROM EXPERIENCE - that they could not compete with Jews on a level playing field in an open and fair market place, so they, in effect, put them in jail.

Conversely, the Jews in Israel segregate the Arabs, not because they hate Arabs, or because they cannot compete with them in the market place on a level playing field (LOL, Israel should only be so fortunate that the Arabs would be so educated and ambitious), but because the Arabs hate the Jews and are a threat to their safety.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 17, 2007 at 12:20 pm Link to this comment
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Robert # 54093 on 1/16
Federer # 54029 on 2/16 and 53915 on 2/15
===================
Dear Robert:
I do join you in welcoming Federer to this forum as a “messenger of truth”.

His two posts referred to above are excellent; supported by hard historical facts and documentation. I am sure the wicked Zionists on these forums are boiling with anger, especially in light of the fact that all their cheap and hysterical propaganda and rants are no match for these truth-based rational postings.

Dear Federer: Thank you for being a “messenger of the truth” and may you get the strength and stamina to keep up the good and noble work in the service of the truth, and eventually peace for all; for peace will never come until the truth prevails.

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By Robert, February 16, 2007 at 11:01 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #54029 by Federer on 2/16 at 1:39 pm


“You use cheap smear tactics to shut up messengers of the truth. In fact, you are making anti-semitic comments when you smear me as an “anti-Jewish radical” and Tony Wicher as “(coming) down on the side of the anti-Jewish crowd”.”


Federer…just wanted to let you know that Americans & other nationalities from all over Europe & the rest of the world are becoming more aware of the tactics of Israelis, zionists Jews, AIPAC members in order to silence any who attempts to expose the Israeli & zionist’s subversive acts.

- First, they cry “Anti-Semitism” which is nothing more than a smoke screen to hide their actions & intentions.

If that doesn’t work, they resort to other attacks:

- They ignore the charges hoping the information will not be given widespread attention and distribution.

- If that doesn’t work, their next step is character assassination. If the writer or speaker hasn’t been involved in sufficient scandal, they are masters at fabricating scandal against the person or persons. Look at what they are doing to Jimmy Carter!

- If none of the above are effective, they are known to resort to physical attacks and deadly harm.

(References to physical & deadly harm check out “By Way Of Deception” by Victor Ostrovsky. There are lots of revelations to Mossad agents use of deadly harm operations, even on outspoken Jews who spoke out against Israel’s brutal policies.)

Federer…I welcome you to this forum as a “messenger of truth”. Your truth is backed by your references.

TRUTH AND JUSTICE ARE ON THE SIDE OF THE OPPRESSED!

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By Tony Wicher, February 16, 2007 at 8:45 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #53915 by Federer on 2/15 at 11:57 pm

Everything you say so far sounds right to me. If that makes me a “radical” too, so be it. I do agree with you that there is something wrong with the views of Carter and Sheinbaum and Michael Lerner and other proponents of a “two state” solution. They do not get to the essence of the matter, which simply is that the concept of a “Jewish state” is undemocratic. That is axiomatic. Everything else follows from that, including the fact that a “two state solution” means one Jewish state and one Palestinian ghetto. The idea of the “Jewish state” must be given up, then reunification of the country is possible. Everyone has think outside the box - the box of Zionist ideology. I am playing no blame games here. All of us, Jew, Arab, American and European have been filled full of ideologies and religions and nationalism and other propaganda since birth. I believe that deep inside everyone is a human being that wants peace. I am always trying to reach that person.

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By Tony Wicher, February 16, 2007 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #53922 by Rene on 2/16 at 4:12 am

Wicher:

“First you sound even handed in your view of achieving peace between Jews and Muslims.
Then some anti-Jewish radical like Federer makes a one sided comment supporting the Arab Muslim side and you agree with him completely….
The Arabs want to inflict civilian death, thinking the Israelis will eventually pack their bags and leave.

Yes, and Israel is inflicting all sorts of misery and death and humiliation on the Palestinians hoping THEY will “pack their bags and leave”. That is basically what the policy is. The only question is, when will both of you people(s) realize that such behavior is what is causing all the problems, and that you have to begin behaving decently toward each other instead? I am being quite even-handed. I am only upholding democratic principles and civilized behaviour, nothing else.

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By Federer, February 16, 2007 at 2:39 pm Link to this comment
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Rene, so you believe you are a more truthful guide than Prof. John Dugard, a South African and former World Court judge who is the UN evaluator of human rights in the Occupied Palestinian territories?

You use cheap smear tactics to try to shut up messengers of the truth. In fact, you are making anti-Semitic comments when you smear me as an “anti-Jewish radical” and Tony Wicher as “(coming) down on the side of the anti-Jewish crowd”. You are conflating Israel with Jewish/Jews, when you are clearly aware that Wicher (assuming) and I had discussed Israel/Israeli policies, not Jews. As Prof. Judith Butler, a Jew, explained: “(it is anti-Semitic to) assume that all ‘Jews’ have the same view, that they are all in favour of Israel, identified with Israel or represented by Israel…One aspect of anti-Semitism or, indeed, of any form of racism is that an entire people is falsely and summarily equated with a particular position, view or disposition…to say that all Jews hold a given view on Israel or are adequately represented by Israel or, conversely, that the acts of Israel, the state, adequately stand for the acts of all Jews, is to conflate Jews with Israel and, thereby, to commit an anti-semitic reduction of Jewishness…I am also opposing anti-Semitic reductions of Jewishness to Israeli interests…the ‘Jew’ is no more defined by Israel than by anti-semitism.”

When you claim that I made “a one sided comment supporting the Arab Muslim side” it is similar to claiming that a judge made a one-sided comment for the victim of a home invasion, theft, murder and hostage-taking, based on evidence from the case history.

It is misinformation that “Israel acts as it does because of military aggression by Arab terrorists against the Jewish “civilian population” etc.

- Before September 2000, there was about two years of relative peace from the Palestinians. Israel shattered that peace, when it started a brutal war on the Palestinians in September 2000—the Israel military (state terrorists) fired over one million bullets at the initially-unarmed Palestinians in just the first few days! Six months of this massive Israeli firepower, bombardment and oppression (over 400 Palestinians murdered) forced the Palestinian militants to resort to suicide terrorism to deter, defend and retaliate against the war started by Israel.
http://www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/more_than_million_bullets.html

- Zionist Jewish terrorists and paramilitaries (Irgun, Stern, Palmach, etc. in the 1930s and 40s) were far worse and more deadly in killing civilians than the Palestinian militant resistance groups (Hamas, Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Islamic Jihad, etc.). Israeli historian Tom Segev in Ha’aretz:  “On July 6, 1938, Irgun people snuck a bomb into the produce market on Hamelachim Street in Haifa…18 Arabs were killed and 38 wounded in the operation. Two days later, Irgun people carried out an attack in Jerusalem; four Arabs were killed. Ten days after that, the Irgun returned to the Haifa market: 27 Arabs were killed and 47 wounded.” On July 25, 1938, Irgun killed 53 Arabs by a bomb at a marketplace in Haifa. On August 26, 1938, Irgun killed 24 Arabs by a bomb at a marketplace in Jaffa. In 1946, Irgun bombed the King David hotel in Jerualem, mass murdering 91 (last year, former Israeli PM Binyamin Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders celebrated the anniversary of this terrorist act). In 1948, the Stern gang murdered the UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte, who had saved 20,000 Jews from the Nazis just a few years before. After 1948, most Zionist terrorists were brought into the Israeli military which often perpetrated far greater state terrorism on behalf of Israel. Israel has elected at least three mega-terrorists to be their prime ministers (Begin, Shamir and Sharon).
http://www.wrmea.org/archives/May-June_2006/0605014.html

- Since 1987, the Israeli military has killed proportionately more civilians than the Palestinian militants.

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By Tony Wicher, February 16, 2007 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #53885 by The Prophet on 2/15 at 7:42 pm

Well, Lefty and Rene? What I say is, with friends like this guy, who needs enemies? If you and your ancestors have been living somewhere for 2000 years and some joker comes along and says it used to belong to his umpteenth-great-grandmother back in the days of the Roman Empire and he is back to reclaim it, so you have to leave - what are you going to do? Laugh at him, then call the men in white coats to have him taken away. Unless, of course, he has a gun, or maybe a tank and a bulldozer. Then you are in big trouble.

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By Robert, February 16, 2007 at 12:05 pm Link to this comment
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Hey…rene???...its obvious who you are! Its known that you are NOT that 76 year old woman that you claimed to be at the start of your posts. Oh…poor thing!!!

ITS THAT OLE ZIONIST “DECEPTION’S” METHODS & WAYS. ITS ALMOST ALWAYS “BY WAY OF DECEPTION” FOR YOUR TYPE!

You are nothing but a “fanatic zionist zealot”. We all had enough of that 670 AD zionist crap.

If the world started basing all its political goals & claims on some 2000-3000 years ago, then the whole world would be a different place. Your zionist claims & beliefs are nothing but absolute hogwash. You are infected with the worst kinds of wrong theories. Zionist theories are wrong and deceptive.

You posts are the same posts from a previous fanatic zionist like you, but using a different posting name. There was this Ken, Charles…and the zionist line-up…and so…

If we need today’s facts, we can always refer to B’Tselem’s record and statistics on Israel’s attrocities against the unarmed Palestinian population.

IN THE MEANTIME, YOU JUST KEEP SPEWING THAT OLE ZIONIST CRAP ON THAT ZIONIST “internet-megaphone” THAT BELONGS TO AIPAC.

ZIONISM IS RACISM TO THE CORE & ITS WRONG!!!

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By Rene, February 16, 2007 at 5:12 am Link to this comment
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Wicher:

First you sound even handed in your view of achieving peace between Jews and Muslims.
Then some anti-Jewish radical like Federer makes a one sided comment supporting the Arab Muslim side and you agree with him completely.
You blow in the wind and usually come down on the side of the anti-Jewish crowd.
Israel acts as it does because of military aggression by Arab terrorists against the Jewish “civilian population”. They do not attack military targets but civilian targets.
That is the difference between Israeli military actions and Arab Muslim military actions.
The Arabs want to inflict civilian death, thinking the Israelis will eventually pack their bags and leave.
Israel has every right to do that which is necessary to protect their civilian population. If that means building a defensive wall and taking military action to stop the terrorist attacks, so shall it be.
The Arabs are being taught that human life is not cheap and they better start understanding that.
That terrorism will not achieve anything and only peace talks are the way to their salvation.
Jews will no longer be led like sheep to slaughter. You and the world should know that too.
Never again !

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By Federer, February 16, 2007 at 12:57 am Link to this comment
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Reply to comment #53794 by Tony Wicher.

Western understanding of the Israel-Palestine conflict (and perception of a just resolution) has been distorted by the propagandas of diverse Israel lobbies. In addition to the hardline and more fanatical lobbies, there are also Israel-lite lobbies and individuals who tend to claim they have a ‘balanced’ perspective and consider both narratives. In the propaganda war to shape public views, these diverse Israel lobbies all work to skew the picture in Israel’s favor, to a greater or lesser degree (hardline lobbies tend to resort to intimidation and smear tactics). In this view, even Jimmy Carter and Shienbaum seem to be Israel-lite. They reveal some problems and facts, but they also understate, obfuscate or deny others.

Understanding history from more complete sources is as essential to dealing with this conflict as it is with ordinary legal cases. Israel’s apartheid policies is a characteristic of the Zionists’ planned process of occupation, terror, dispossession, ethnic cleansing, land theft and/or liquidation of the Palestinian nation since 1947 (with ideology and strategy rooted since the 1890s).

The pro-Israel view typically downplays or revises what the Zionists/Israel did to the Palestinians since 1947. Israeli historian Ilan Pappe, in his book The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine, describes the pre-planned and systematic ethnic cleansing and other crimes against humanity suffered by the Palestinians (starting months before the weak Arab armies even showed up in the proposed Palestinian territories). Pappe’s history—unlike much pro-Israel doctrine—is relatively consistent with the UN history of events (see “The End Of The Mandate And The Establishment Of Israel” in the UN link). About 800,000 Palestinians were ethnic cleansed, but the actual figures of expelled Palestinians were higher—many other refugees later ended back inside Israel’s borders under the terms of the 1949 armistice agreements or slipped back across the borders and hid in the few undestroyed Palestinian villages inside the new Israel.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=12058
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11102
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309!OpenDocument
http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/statehood.html

Few know that, in 1967, Israeli terror tactics again drove out and ethnic cleansed another 200,000 Palestinians. Israel has consistently used such tactics over the past 60 years to eliminate Palestinians from their homeland.
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0390/9003017.htm
http://www.wrmea.com/jews_for_justice/1967war.html

The history of Palestinian victimhood caused by Zionist/Israel’s schemes forms the basis for what needs to be done to correct the injustice. You suggested one way of resolving this conflict—a democratic binational state (see British historian Tony Judt in link). There is actually a basis for a proportionately small Jewish state, given that in 1917 (when the British occupation started) about 10% of Palestine was Jewish (over half foreign immigrants). Had the Zionist Jewish leaders not been anti-Arab and greedy for land and water, Arabs and Jews would probably have continued co-existing even in different states as they did on the same land for centuries before the European Zionists arrived. The problem most people, including Palestinians, have is that the hugely majority Palestinians were defrauded of at least 78% of Palestine, against their wishes and national rights of self-determination, and with no compensation, etc. And since the 1967 occupation of the Palestinian territories, Israel has consistently been the party that has blocked a full peace deal or acted in bad faith.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16671
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/16824

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By The Prophet, February 15, 2007 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment
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Palestinians are not a nation of people.
These are Arab Muslims and they don’t claim to be descendants of the ancient Philistines.
So lets cut the crap that this is their land by some connection to ancestory to the Philistines.
The Jews “Do have” a direct link to the last legitimate state of that region, Judea.
Judea, called that by the Romans, was a province of Rome. The Judean state was destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans who killed over a million people and exiled most of the rest.
The Roman Emperor Hadrian renamed the country Palestine in 135 AD. This was after the last Jewish uprising failed to regain their land.
Never was another state established by the occupying nations who later inhabited that land and that includes the Arab Muslims.
That is historical objective factual truth, deal with it.
This is Jewish land. It was given back to them according to biblical prophecy dating back nearly 3,000 years.
Yes my friends. The truth is right before your very eyes in the very Jewish state of Israel.
Try to deny it with your lies and hatred of the Jewish people.
The end time is very near. Final biblical prophecy predicts the nations of the world trying to once again remove the Jews from their land.
Does that not seem familiar to you people ?
Do you not see this happening right now ?
Are you now not part of this movement to get rid of the Jewish state ? Is not the United Nations, the representative body of the nations of the world, anti-Israel and looking to destroy her ?
Of course the answers to all the above is “YES”.
So keep on with your hate and the denial of what must be. The day of judgement is near. Do not say
when you come before your maker, “I did not know”.
I have warned you and therefore the sin and judgement will be against you.
Read the Hebrew prophets and see that all I have told you has been predicted nearly 3,000 yrs ago.
The Jewish state of Israel is prophecy come true and God will never allow his people to be ravaged again by the nations of this world.
If you think I am a fanatic you are dead wrong.
I only tell you the truth of ancient Jewish prophecy and it is as real and life giving as the air you are breathing right now.

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By Rene, February 15, 2007 at 6:53 pm Link to this comment
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FEDERER:

You are misguided and totally unaware of the real Israeli/Palestinian problem.
The South African situation is totally different.
Israel is as legitimate as any other democratic nation on this Earth. It does not occupy the land, it is their land.
The United Nations agreed to partition the land, then called Palestine, and in 1948 the state of Israel was re-established on its own land and the rest of the land was partitioned as Arab land.
The Arabs did not like this. They therefore tried to drive the Israelis into the sea, they lost.
They continued to try to destroy her and continued to lose.
In the process, Israel occupied its enemies surrounding land to form a buffer zone for defensive purposes.
This is the situation there today. It will stay that way until the Arab nations make peace with Israel and no longer look to destroy her.
White South African rule was not legitimate. It was about European Whites who invaded African land and stole their country.
The Arabs never owned the land of Israel but occupied it by military means. The true owners were the Judeans, or their present day Jewish descendants. The original state was called Judea. It was occupied by the Romans who destroyed the Jewish Temple and Jerusalem in 70 AD. Over 1 million Jews lost their lives in that war.
The Roman Emperor Hadrian changed the name of the country to Palestine to disrespect the Jewish uprising in 132 AD.
There is no comparison to your white invasion of black African land and making slaves of the population. 
The Middle East also is very different in that the problem is religion and not race.
Islam seeks to control the world and make all other peoples submit to it.
The Jews have never looked to dominate the world and never looked to make others adopt their religion. On the contrary, they seek to isolate themselves and be left alone to live as a separate people.
South Africa was about White superiority over a native majority black population deemed inferior by those European whites.
Israel is about Jews wanting to live in their own country and doing what is necessary to survive as a people.
When the Arabs recognize Israel as a state and renounce their intentions to destroy her, then there will be real peace.

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By Tony Wicher, February 15, 2007 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to
Comment #53702 by Federer on 2/14 at 10:31 pm

I agree with you completely. The current treatment of the Palestinians is worse than South African apartheid ever was - it combines the worst features of apartheid and military occupation. The purpose of it is simply to drive the Palestinians out. There has never been any serious intention of allowing a Palestinian state. Israel is the product of a 19th century ideology, Zionism, that combines good old-fashioned colonialism with good old-fashioned segregationism. In the time of Theodore Herzl this was considered normal, but times have changed. Israel will not be able to complete the colonial project. It will have to make an accomodation with the Palestinians. But a Palestinian state is not the way. The “Green line”, the 1967 line, etc. must be regarded as temporary armistice lines. They cannot be the basis for a permanent political settlement. The only way to settle this conflict is reunification, not partition. Israelis and Palestinians must agree to live together as equal citizens in a democratic state - whether they like it or not. There is no real alternative, other than endless war.

The treatment of the Palestinians by Israelis is the number one cause and justification for terrorism. As long as it goes on the terrorists can justly claim moral equivalence. As long as the United States continues with its current unqualified support of Israel and Israeli apartheid, it makes itself the object of terrorism as well. This must stop. Only the United States can make Israel do the right thing. The next U.S. administration must understand that this is the key to Middle East peace and to defeating terrorism.

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By Tony Wicher, February 15, 2007 at 2:51 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #53677 by Robert on 2/14 at 7:08 pm

Robert,

As a peace-maker and practitioner of non-violent communication, I am very sensitive to hostility no matter where it comes from. What you call “lies” may be another person’s sincerely meant point of view. I am not one to try to “please” or “impress” people, but I am trying to hear them and understand them and communicate with them.

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By Federer, February 14, 2007 at 11:31 pm Link to this comment
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The ‘Apartheid mistake’ is Shienbaum’s, not Carter’s. Shienbaum is downplaying the reality—it’s apartheid and much worse—while misrepresenting his position as ‘balanced’.

John Dugard (UN Human Rights Official for Occupied Palestinian Territories, former World Court judge, international law professor):

“APARTHEID: ISRAELIS ADOPT WHAT SOUTH AFRICA DROPPED

...As a South African and former anti-apartheid advocate who visits the Palestinian territories regularly to assess the human rights situation for the U.N. Human Rights Council, the comparison to South African apartheid is of special interest to me.

...The Palestinian territories—East Jerusalem, the West Bank and Gaza—have been under Israeli military occupation since 1967. Although military occupation is tolerated and regulated by international law, it is considered an undesirable regime that should be ended as soon as possible. The United Nations for nearly 40 years has condemned Israel’s military occupation, together with colonialism and apartheid, as contrary to the international public order.

In principle, the purpose of military occupation is different from that of apartheid. It is not designed as a long-term oppressive regime but as an interim measure that maintains law and order in a territory following an armed conflict and pending a peace settlement.

But this is not the nature of the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Since 1967 Israel has imposed its control over the Palestinian territories in the manner of a colonizing power, under the guise of occupation. It has permanently seized the territories’ most desirable parts—the holy sites in East Jerusalem, Hebron and Bethlehem and the fertile agricultural lands along the western border and in the Jordan Valley—and settled its own Jewish “colonists” throughout the land.

Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories has many features of colonization. At the same time it has many of the worst characteristics of apartheid. The West Bank has been fragmented into three areas—north (Jenin and Nablus), center (Ramallah) and south (Hebron)—which increasingly resemble the Bantustans of South Africa.

Restrictions on freedom of movement imposed by a rigid permit system enforced by some 520 checkpoints and roadblocks resemble, but in severity go well beyond, apartheid’s “pass system.” And the security apparatus is reminiscent of that of apartheid, with more than 10,000 Palestinians in Israeli prisons and frequent allegations of torture and cruel treatment.

Many aspects of Israel’s occupation surpass those of the apartheid regime. Israel’s large-scale destruction of Palestinian homes, leveling of agricultural lands, military incursions and targeted assassinations of Palestinians far exceed any similar practices in apartheid South Africa. No wall was ever built to separate blacks and whites.

Following the worldwide anti-apartheid movement, one might expect a similarly concerted international effort united in opposition to Israel’s abhorrent treatment of the Palestinians.

Instead one finds an international community divided between the West and the rest of the world. The Security Council is prevented from taking action because of the U.S. veto and European Union abstinence. And the United States and the European Union, acting in collusion with the United Nations and the Russian Federation, have in effect imposed economic sanctions on the Palestinian people for having, by democratic means, elected a government deemed unacceptable to Israel and the West.

Forgotten is the commitment to putting an end to occupation, colonization and apartheid…”
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dugard.html

UN Human Rights report
http://domino.un.org/unispal.NSF/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/0306124470443c948525712b006a70b7!OpenDocument

Chris Hedges
http://www.truthdig.com/report/print/20061218_worse_than_apartheid/

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 14, 2007 at 9:13 pm Link to this comment
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Imagine yourself living in a given town of a country where you’re officially a citizen of that country; then you want to move and live in a different town of that country; then you have to submit to a “suitability test”; then the result of the test tells you that “you’re not fit to live in that town.”
Where is this likely to happen in the world?! You guessed it! Only in Israel… the only oasis of democracy in the Middle East!!!!!
===============
A petition was issued earlier this week to the High Court of Justice by an Arab-Israeli couple seeking a temporary injunction which would allow them to live in the predominately Jewish town of Rakefet. The couple, residents of Sakhnin, have stated that local authorities in Rakefet and officials at the Israel Lands Authority kept them from moving into the town, by stating that according to a “suitability test,” they were “not fit to live in the town.”
========================================
This is another one!

Israel owned El Al refuses transport of Israeli Arab body. The deceased, Acre-born Lamis Jerrar, worked as a lecturer at Howard University in Washington D.C. and held dual Israeli and American citizenship. After she passed away, her family tried to bring her to burial in her hometown. El Al said it would not transport the body!

Read these stories at HAARETZ.com

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By Robert, February 14, 2007 at 8:08 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #53547 by Tony Wicher on 2/14 at 9:14 am


Tony,


Just a follow up to your comment #53547, there is really no need to make “a mountain out of a mole hill” with reference to “Rene’s???” post.

I believe in free speech; I may not agree with that person’s comments, but I dislike lies. I have high admirations for those who tells the “TRUTH”.

One learns in life that “you can’t try to please everybody” with comments, policy, interactions…etc…, its no feasible to accomplish. There are lots of people in this world with absolute “tunnel vision” perspectives.

I believe in telling the TRUTH. I have NO stomach for “wishy-washy’ individuals who try to please & impress everyone.

In the meantime, I’ll continue along the route of the TRUTH.

I can take care of myself…Tony.

Regards.

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By Rene, February 14, 2007 at 6:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty:

I agree with you about Robert. However, I feel Tony is truly looking for piece but is misguided.
He does not understand that his solution leads to the destruction of the Jews in Israel.
He does not understand the intense hate that the Arab Muslims harbor towards Jews living in Israel.
The Arab Muslims will never agree to a multi-cultural democratic state where Jews will have equal say with Muslims. 
Until Islam gives up its goal to subjugate the peoples of the world to its belief there will never be peace.
Tony just cannot deal with the rejection of his dream and is willing to push it even at the expense of the Jews in Israel.
Peace at all costs is not the prudent way.
Only when the Arab Muslim nations are willing to accept Israel as an equal will peace happen.

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By Tony Wicher, February 14, 2007 at 10:14 am Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #53461 by Robert on 2/13 at 8:54 pm

Robert,

Rene calls you “potty mouth” and you call her “phony”. This is not an elevated discussion. You both have valid points of view. Afer all, we are trying to communicate and find common ground as human beings; otherwise we are wasting our time.

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By Geronimo, February 14, 2007 at 1:44 am Link to this comment
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Now is the time for all True Jews to stand up and demand justice for the Palestinians, and, by so doing, pave the way towards peace in the Middle East.  Why?  Because a True Jew always sides with the slave, never with the slave-master, even (better, especially) when the slave-master is a relative, a friend or a co-religionist.  And in the Middle East it’s the Palestinians who are the slaves, since it’s their homeland that the Jewish settlers now occupy, and having one’s land taken over by another people is a form of slavery; no ifs, buts or maybes.

But what about the Jewish myths, rituals and such?  Do these matter to the True Jew?  They may or may not, depending upon the individual.  Being on the side of the slave, that’s what counts.  And it’s in the interest of the settlers too, being that their situation is untenable, emersed as they are in an Arab/Islamic world. 

What’ll bring peace to the Middle East?  Having the Jewish settlers and the Palestinians sit down together for the purpose of figuring out how to get along,  based upon equality and mutual respect,  but with the agenda this time being set by the Palestinians, not the settlers, that’s what.         
.

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By Robert, February 13, 2007 at 10:20 pm Link to this comment
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Rene…who???...I must confess that I laughed when I saw your last post #53412 on 2/13.

Your attempts to manipulate the tone on this forum by telling us that you are 76 years old & the rest of your objectives of screaming “anti-semitism”...I must say that you are a real “PHONY”.

Whoever “???” is behind yours comments, attempts & your phony story must realize that its obvious that its total baloney & fabrications. Your story is totally plastic. People are not as gullible as you might think.

Its time for the lies to stop & start by being true to the TRUTH. A kid could have figured out that your posted attempts are phony to the core.

You never attempted to refute the TRUTH about the zionist terrorists, Irgun & Stern Gang, in Palestine…wonder why?

Gideon Levy reported the TRUTH about the brutal murders of Palestinian children by the Israeli IDF. He was NOT fabricating stories or lying…now was he?

The TRUTH is the best route in life.

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By Lefty, February 13, 2007 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment
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To Rene:

I think you’re giving Robert to much credit. He’s not merely a Jew-hater.  I’ve renamed him “Abu” because frankly, I think he is an Arab masquerading as an American.  You know, like when you call one of those 800 customer service numbers and you get someone from Punjab with an Indian accent so thick he sounds like he’s swallowing his tongue with every word, and answers the phone with some obvious pseudonym like: “Hellllow, my name eez Bo-bby, how can I hellllp you.” 

Except, in this case, Robert is an Arab, not an Indian.  The fact that he and his ilk repeat the same tired, obvious, Arab propaganda over, and over, and over, is irrefutable proof.  Although, he did complain once about my use of “big words” leading me to believe he may just be a republican . . . ehem . . . .

Where was I?  Oh yes, the same thing goes for Esther (aka “Mahmood”), Big Al (aka “Big Ali”), and the so called Tony Wicher.  I havn’t thought of a fitting name for Tony, yet.  Arab propaganda just tumbles out of their mouths too easily for them not to be Arabs.

JMHO. YMMV.

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By Robert, February 13, 2007 at 9:54 pm Link to this comment
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Rene…who???...I must confess that I laughed when I read your last post #53412 on 2/13.

Your attempts to manipulate the tone on this forum by telling us that you are 76 years old & the rest of your objectives to scream “anti-semitism”...I must say that you are truly a “PHONY.”

Whoever “???” is behind your attempts & your phony story must realize that its obvious that its total baloney & fabrications. Your story is totally plastic. People are not as gullible as you might think!

Its time for the lies to stop & start by being true to the TRUTH.

A kid could have figured out that your attempts are phony to the core.

Gideon Levy reported the TRUTH about the brutal murders of Palestinian children by the IDF. He was NOT lying…was he?

The TRUTH is the best route in life.

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By Tony Wicher, February 13, 2007 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #53412 by Rene on 2/13 at 3:47 pm

Rene,

Sometimes Robert gets a little hot under the collar, but in the main his citations of atrocities committed by the Israeli side are true. That does not make him a “potty mouth”. You may say his view is unbalanced because he does not say anything about atrocities committed by Arabs. I try to show you more balance, and I wish he would too. But you are living in denial if you say the atrocities and massive human rights violations against Palestinians being committed by Israel at this time are not happening.

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By Geronimo, February 13, 2007 at 7:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Gaza And The Warsaw Ghetto

same place
different times
while the world stood by
right in front of us
genocide
live

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By Rene, February 13, 2007 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert:

Don’t give me your shtick.
You need your mouth washed out.
You are full of it sonny.
I was born and raised in the United States of America and so were my parents. My husband who is 80 served in the United States Army during WWII.
I am 76 yrs young and I know your likes.
You are a Jew hater and that is for sure.
Your writings give you away.
I am sick of seeing your type of slime pretending to be so caring for the poor Palestinian Arabs.
You only use them for your own political agenda just as their Arab brothers do. That agenda is the destruction of Israel.
Keep on writing your hate articles, in the end what goes around comes around. Take it from someone who has seen it all.

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By PatrickHenry, February 13, 2007 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This post has gone on for a couple of months now regarding how Carter objectively viewed this regional issue.

I believe Israel has a right to exist, I just don’t want to pay for it with my tax dollars nor do I want their dual national agents in my government.  This goes for the Palestinians as well.

The US has wasted too much of our good will on a people who discrimminate against us and do not have our best interests at heart.  Deceit breeds contempt and there is alot of contempt in the country and from what I’ve read in these posts.

take that http://www.GIYUS.org

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By Robert, February 13, 2007 at 9:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #52733 by rene on 2/09 @ 3:30pm

Rene comments….

“I do not know how old you people are! But, let me say that I have been around a long time. I was born during the depression and around during the second world war.”

Hey Rene…what you are telling us is that you were born in the 1920-1930’s(maybe) & you were around during WWII. Can you tell us if you were born & living in the USA or where were you born and living in Palestine?

Then you must know about the zionist Irgun & Stern terrorist Gang (1931-1948) led by Avraham Tehomi, Avraham Stern & Menachem Begin. In 1943 Menachem Begin (prime minister of Israel 1977-‘83) became the head of the zionist terrorist organization (Irgun Zvai Leumi) which was responsible for waging terror campaigns & attacks on British rule in Palestine & against Palestinian Arabs.

On July 22, 1946 the King David Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed by the zionist Irgun terrorists commanded by Menachem Begin. The Irgun terrorists entered the King David Hotel dressed as Palestinian Arabs. The British headquarter’s office wing was targeted, indiscriminately killing 91 people.

Surely you remember that major & many other incidents like it.

“Hate breeds hate, genocide.”

Rene…are you breeding hate or love here? Surely that you have a compassion of a mother & the deaths of innocent civilians brings you sorrow…regardless of their ethnic & religious background!

Do you as a mother just care about Jews ONLY?

Don’t you believe that all humans should have the same equal rights, freedom, & justice?

WITH PEACE…ALL PEOPLE ARE WINNERS!

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By Tony Wicher, February 13, 2007 at 8:35 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #53260 by Rene on 2/12 at 8:14 pm

“Wicher:

You are a peace loving & caring guy when it comes to Arab Muslim civil rights but only at the expense of the Jews in Israel.
You care nothing about Jewish rights or their survival.”
***********************************************
Rene:

That is certainly not true. I have no intentions of abandoning Jews or Israel. I want Jews and Arabs to live together as equals and fellow citizens, as indeed they do in this country and other democracies. Right now Jews in Israel have all the power. I want them to SHARE power equitably, not give it up. There is no reason this cannot be done. I would recognize Israel as the only state in the area, including the West Bank and Gaza, with guaranteed secure borders, providing Israel will make the transition from apartheid to democracy. I truly believe this is the only road to peace for both peoples. Moreover, this agreement would only take place within the context of regional peace talks where all neighboring countries would recognize the right of this greater Israel to exist.

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By Robert, February 13, 2007 at 7:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #52711 by lefty on 2/09 @ 12:58pm

“Stenchy lefty” is foaming manure piles…


“Because Iraq is a country that was (and still is under the control of a bunch of psychopathic, nutbags, which had a history of launching non-nuclear missles into Israel on numerous occations with any reasonable cause whatsoever, and because if Iraq really did have nuclear weapons capability, there is no serious doubt that those missiles would have had nuclear warheads on them.”

“stenchy lefty” is attempting to pull the wool over the eyes of this forum’s readers.

He is ‘trying’ to tell us indirectly that Israel’s zionist leaders; such as, Menachem Begin, Aeriel Sharon, Netanyahu, Ehud Olmert, IDF Generals &  others…were/are all normal “peace loving”, defenders of human rights, justice, international law, Geneva Convention Articles, and equal rights for all people. “Stenchy” is indirectly saying that Israeli zionist leaders are not “psychopathic, Nutbags”. They can ALL be trusted with their nuclear, chemical & biological weapons. But ONLY Israelis are allowed to have them in the Middle-East.

Israel has a right to defend itself, but Arab/Moslem states do NOT have the right to defend themselves from Israel’s “WMD’s”!

Here is just a few of Israel’s “NOT Psychopathic??” record(s) & accomplishments (you be the judge):

-Israel attacked Iraq’s nuclear facility complex in the 1980’s. But Israel already had hundreds of nuclear bombs and manufacturing capabilities at that time (notice that Israel can ONLY have these weapons).

-Israel drops millions of American made cluster bombs on Lebanon’s civilian populations.

-Israel bombs Lebanon with uranium depleted bombs & missiles.

-Israel bombs Arab cities, towns, villages,  schools, hospitals, harbors, bridges, civilian shelters, roads, airports, transportation systems, water & electrical facilities…and much more.

-Israel brutally kills thousands of innocent civilian lives using the most sophisticated American made weapons against Lebanese & Palestinian populations.

-Israel’s IDF soldiers brutally shoot/murder 9-10 year old children, teenagers and unarmed Arab/Palestinian civilians without ever worrying about any court convictions or inquiry committee. NEVER!

“stenchy lefty” psychopathic defense of his Israeli leaders & logic is nothing but a pile of horse manure. He has been listening & taking notes from his ZIONIST & deceptive master…Douglas Feith!

Israel’s zionist leaders & are extremely dangerous with proven recorded record(s) over the years.

ALL ‘WMD’ WEAPONS SHOULD BE ELIMINATED FROM THE MIDDLE EAST, WITH ISRAEL’S WEAPONS ON TOP OF THE LIST.

EQUAL RIGHTS, HUMAN RIGHTS & JUSTICE FOR ALL PEOPLE.

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By Rene, February 12, 2007 at 9:14 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Wicher:

You are a peace loving & caring guy when it comes to Arab Muslim civil rights but only at the expense of the Jews in Israel.
You care nothing about Jewish rights or their survival.
It is the Jews you blame and say nothing of the 22 Arab nations who have done nothing to help the Palestinian Arabs financially or make peace with Israel.
The Arab nations care nothing about the Palestinian Arabs. They only care about the destruction of the democratic state of Israel.
Your one state plan shows how ignorant you are about the political & religious realities in that region.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 12, 2007 at 8:56 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This story coming from the land of Israel should be both entertaining to everyone and shocking to those who still believe the myth that Israel is a bastion of so-called democracy. It was reported today, February 12, 2007, in the Morning Edition of NPR, under the interesting title of “Jerusalem’s ‘Rosa Parks’ fights ‘Modesty Patrols.’ It is about a group of Israeli women of the liberal type who have filed a lawsuit in Israel’s high court against “Taliban-like” Jewish fundamentalists who insult women publicly and order them to sit in the back of the bus and abstain from wearing “immodest” clothing on public bus lines. Today, there are more than 30 gender-segregated Haredi bus routes.

The women leading this liberation movement is writer Naomi Ragen, after being herself the victim of harassment by ultra-orthodox Jews, she told her story to Eric Westervelt on National Public Radio. Kindly go to their Website and read the full story.

This story is dedicated to the fanatic Zionists on this blog like Lefty, Mad As Hell, Hondo, Charles and others. It comes signed with the question: “If this is how fanatic Zionists treat their more liberal fellow Jews, how would you think they would treat Palestinian freedom fighters?!

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By Johnny, February 12, 2007 at 7:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert:

You like to mention only IDF horror stories.
You never mention how many terrorist members kill and torture their own. How they destroyed the beautiful country of Lebanon and its Christian population. You don’t mention about all those suicide bombers who murdered innocent Israeli women & children. You don’t mention how they fire thousands of rockets into Israeli cities and don’t care who they kill.
You only tell the Palestinian Arab side of the story.
What is interesting is how you use the “ISRAELI FREE PRESS” to get your information about Israel’s government and the IDF.
Yes, Israel is a democracy with a free press.
They can talk against their own government and military.
They air out their dirty laundry, like the United States press does, for all the world to see.
This is something you will never see in these Arab countries you so love.
You use Israel’s free press to support your own cause for the destruction of that free press and the democracy called Israel.
Fact is: Your only goal is to spread Jewish hate and to destroy Israel . 
You are a “JEW HATER” and would just love to see all the Jews wiped off the face of the Earth.
Screw you !
The Jews are here to stay, it is you and your kind who will soon be leaving us.

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By Herman Schmidt, February 12, 2007 at 3:55 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

From Wicher:
Herman:

Yes indeed it would be helpful. Actually their objective has been openly stated many times. The “two-state” subterfuge is for the benefit of the naive only. Again I quote Ehud Olmert from the Feb 19, 2004 issue of Haaretz:
“We don’t have unlimited time. More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against “occupation” in their parlance, to a struggle for one man-one vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish State.”

That puts the true objective of Israel in a nutshell. It is to finish the ethnic cleansing of greater Israel, and to create “facts on the ground” that will make this irreversible. Therefore, the correct strategy is to recognize “Greater Israel” as the only state, but to insist on citizenship and equality for Palestinians on the grounds of human rights, justice and democracy.

Mr. Wicher:

You’re right, of course. I wonder where it will end up. Will the Palestinians be like American Indians or South Africans? Each successive President moves farther and farther away from the Palestinians, but it is remarkable how strongly the entire population of the Middle East feels about the issue, and they’re not going to let it simply fade away. Israel is so powerful vis-a-vis its neighbors militarily and so weak from the standpoint of simple justice. How do you argue that you have a right to steal another’s land? How do you resist tanks and missiles when you have only desperation and anger on your side?

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By Lefty, February 12, 2007 at 2:27 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Comment #53002 by Robert (aka “Abu”) on 2/11 at 2:33 pm

““Tair’s Palestinian Peers - Haaretz - Israel News

“By Gideon Levy 02/11/2007

““ A child a week, almost every week. In recent weeks, I again went out to document the circumstances of the killing of several children and teenagers, shot dead by Israel Defense Forces soldiers. A very ill wind is once again blowing in the army and no one is saying anything about it. An army that kills children does not concern the public. No committee of inquiry has been, and none will be, formed to deal with this matter. But the fact that the IDF kills children with such a light hand, and fully supports its soldiers who do so, should trouble us no less than the reserves of war supplies in the North. The ramifications of such behavior are not only moral - ultimately an army’s operational capability will be affected when children are the targets in its soldiers’ gunsights.

“Jamil Jibji, the boy from the Askar camp who loved horses, was shot in the head after soldiers in an armored jeep taunted a group of children who threw rocks at them. He was 14 years old.”

“(Gideon Levy is an Israeli journalist who writes to the Israeli newspapers, Ha’aretz)

“Here is the link to the tragedy of the “Killing/Murdering” of children by Israel’s IDF soldiers:

“http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/824137.html”
____________________________________________

Abu,

It’s touching how concerned you are for Arab children.  But, I’m a little confused about why your not concerned about Arab terrorists using children as human shields which results in unintended deaths of innocent non-terrorist Arabs.  I’m also confused about why you don’t seem to have any concern whatsoever about the and murder of innocent Israeli children who are purposely targeted and slaughtered by Arab terrorists.

It almost seems as if you are biased in favor of Arabs over Israelis.

[I tried to cut down on the big fancy words for you, this time, Abu].  wink

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By Big Al, February 12, 2007 at 1:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #52882 by James on 2/10 at 5:26 pm

“James” is obviously the same ‘prophet’ so ably satirized by Esther.
He starts a new line with every sentence.
His posts are lists of irritable mental flailings.
He’s like an grumpy old wino, swatting at “the voices”.
He’s warn out his brain, trying to believe in his oxymoronic “Jewish Democracy”.
One can only do this ridiculous mental dance for so long.
Blessed are the Jameses of the world.
God loves them more than He does the rest of us.
(Just ask “James”, if you don’t believe me.)

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By Tony Wicher, February 11, 2007 at 4:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #52864 by konopelli?wgg on 2/10 at 1:45 pm

“I feel pretty confident that Israel is NEVER going to give up and disolve itself. I also feel confident that the Arabs will never be able to take Israel by force, as much as they would want to, without the mutual distruction of Israel and the Arabs.

i feel equally confident that Israel, qua Zionist State, will never permit the develompent of an autonomous, self-contained Palestinian State, because it if did so, it would immediately face irresistable international pressure to return to that palestinina state all the material wealth Israel has illegally and forcibly appropriated, in the form of land and water especially, during its 40-year trangressive occupation of Palestinian lands.”
**********************************************
K: The point is not to return everything, but to share land and resources and power equitably starting now.That is what a successful peaceful transition from apartheid to true democracy would accomplish.

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By Tony Wicher, February 11, 2007 at 4:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #52816 by Herman Schmidt on 2/10 at 6:00 am

Reading the responses, the chasm is so wide you wonder what is the point of the discussion. So what can people agree on. One, Israel is a very powerful state. Two, Israel steals land every day. Three, the Palestinians can’t do a thing about it. Four, Israel, in stealing land, claims it is fighting for the right of Israel to exist, but what are its borders? It would be helpful if it would tell the world these are what we think our borders should be. We, Israel, will go no
further. The Balfour Declaration started with their right to have a home beside Arab neighbors, the UN partition in 1947 gave half of Palestine for Israel, the 1948 war gave them about 80 percent, the 1967 invasion took it all. So, to Israel, what are your borders and what do you want to happen to the Palestinians? Stating it openly would be helpful.”
***********************************************
Herman:

Yes indeed it would be helpful. Actually their objective has been openly stated many times. The “two-state” subterfuge is for the benefit of the naive only. Again I quote Ehud Olmert from the Feb 19, 2004 issue of Haaretz:
“We don’t have unlimited time. More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against “occupation” in their parlance, to a struggle for one man-one vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish State.”

That puts the true objective of Israel in a nutshell. It is to finish the ethnic cleansing of greater Israel, and to create “facts on the ground” that will make this irreversible. Therefore, the correct strategy is to recognize “Greater Israel” as the only state, but to insist on citizenship and equality for Palestinians on the grounds of human rights, justice and democracy.

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By Tony Wicher, February 11, 2007 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #52733 by rene on 2/09 at 3:30 pm

“I do not know how old you people are!  But, let me say that I have been around a long time.  I was born during the depression and around during the second world war.  Do you know what the Jewish People and many other groups went through during the holocaust?  Do you know the centuries of hate and persecution?  Do you know that Jews were slaughtered by Palestinians when they attempted to farm their own purchased land during the 1920’s?  We are We are a book people.  Jesus was a Jew.  He would still be a Jew today. He loved the land, and loved the Torah. Where are your hearts?  Don’t you see that the Arabs just want to destroy Israel and kill Jews?  Look what they are doing to their own people, other people who disagree with them!”
************************************************
Rene,

Apparently you do not see that when you say that Arabs “just want to destroy Israel and kill Jews”, you are expressing the exact same hatred toward Arabs that you say they are directing ted against you. I have a heart, all right. My heart is big enough to see Arabs and Jews as human beings and to give their suffering equal value. What about your heart? Does it only care about Jews while being stone cold toward the suffering of the Palestinians?

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By Robert, February 11, 2007 at 3:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Tair’s Palestinian Peers - Haaretz - Israel News

By Gideon Levy 02/11/2007


” A child a week, almost every week. In recent weeks, I again went out to document the circumstances of the killing of several children and teenagers, shot dead by Israel Defense Forces soldiers. A very ill wind is once again blowing in the army and no one is saying anything about it. An army that kills children does not concern the public. No committee of inquiry has been, and none will be, formed to deal with this matter. But the fact that the IDF kills children with such a light hand, and fully supports its soldiers who do so, should trouble us no less than the reserves of war supplies in the North. The ramifications of such behavior are not only moral - ultimately an army’s operational capability will be affected when children are the targets in its soldiers’ gunsights.

Jamil Jibji, the boy from the Askar camp who loved horses, was shot in the head after soldiers in an armored jeep taunted a group of children who threw rocks at them. He was 14 years old.”


(Gideon Levy is an Israeli journalist who writes to the Israeli newspapers, Ha’aretz)


Here is the link to the tragedy of the “Killing/Murdering” of children by Israel’s IDF soldiers:


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/824137.html

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By Mad As Hell, February 11, 2007 at 6:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Since Truthdig.com has been censuring my posts to this thread (I’ll be shocked if they pass this one), especially if they are critical of Truthdig.com, I’m done with this thread.

There are many interesting posts here, some thoughtful, some not, from both sides of the argument.  But, like many of my fellow liberals, it appears Truthdig cannot suffer criticism.  I EXPECT that of conservatives, and am rarely surprised when they do not tolerate criticism of their fairness, but though I should know better, I never expect it from liberals.

So, as much as I would like to continue this discussion, regretfully, I must forego it.  I am deeply disappointed with this site.

I HOPE the moderators see fit to allow this to post.

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By Tony Wicher, February 11, 2007 at 12:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Message for all you redoubtable bloggers everbody from Tony Wicher:

I have joined the Obama campaign. I found his presidential announcement very hopeful and inspiring. I see Obama as the best hope for democracy we have today, a man who combines great political acumen with strong and genuine adherence to democratic principles. My contribution will be to lead a forum on foreign policy, where I am advocating the One Democratic State solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict. I am seeking to convince the Obama campaign to adopt this position. Please come on over, read my opening statement, and let’s hear what you have to say!

The url is:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/blog/tonywicher

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By James, February 10, 2007 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Big Al has a small brain with myopic vision.
He should not speak about subjects he has no factual knowledge about.
Suggest this Jew hating jerk join the KKK & Nazi party if he is already not one of them.
Big Al probably hates African Americans & Spanish Americans also and any group he feels is controlling “his” country.
Big Al is about Big Prejudice.
Bye Little Al.

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By John Hanks, February 10, 2007 at 6:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I have always feared the hypothetical possibility of a mad man with nukes - or at least a person with very poor judgement.  It has come to pass and it looks like Bush will make a foolish gamble with out lives in the interest Israel.

If we all die, we won’t be missed.

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By konopelli?wgg, February 10, 2007 at 2:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I feel pretty confident that Israel is NEVER going to give up and disolve itself. I also feel confident that the Arabs will never be able to take Israel by force, as much as they would want to, without the mutual distruction of Israel and the Arabs.

i feel equally confident that Israel, qua Zionist State, will never permit the develompent of an autonomous, self-contained Palestinian State, because it if did so, it would immediately face irresistable international pressure to return to that palestinina state all the material wealth Israel has illegally and forcibly appropriated, in the form of land and water especially, during its 40-year trangressive occupation of Palestinian lands.

Report this

By Herman Schmidt, February 10, 2007 at 7:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reading the responses, the chasm is so wide you wonder what is the point of the discussion. So what can people agree on. One, Israel is a very powerful state. Two, Israel steals land every day. Three, the Palestinians can’t do a thing about it. Four, Israel, in stealing land, claims it is fighting for the right of Israel to exist, but what are its borders? It would be helpful if it would tell the world these are what we think our borders should be. We, Israel, will go no
further. The Balfour Declaration started with their right to have a home beside Arab neighbors, the UN partition in 1947 gave half of Palestine for Israel, the 1948 war gave them about 80 percent, the 1967 invasion took it all. So, to Israel, what are your borders and what do you want to happen to the Palestinians? Stating it openly would be helpful.

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By Hondo, February 9, 2007 at 9:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

What a load of ka-ka! Sheinbaum thinks that Carter’s book is “balanced?” Many of Carter’s former friends and associates would disagree, seeing as how they have gone as far as to resign from his foundation in order to distance themselves from him.

Let me make it very clear. Jimmy Carter is an Anti-Semite. Jimmy Carter is a socialist. Jimmy Carter pretends to be a Christian, but the truth is that he is what the Bible calls a “false teacher” or an “anti-Christ.” Jimmy Carter has given aid and comfort to each and every murderous despot in the world over the last 30 years. Jimmy Carter was the worst president this country has ever had, and he has become the worst ex-president this country has ever had. Jimmy Carter is a traitor to his country, and he is an evil, despicable human being.  I have researched and written extensively on the tragic subject of the Traitorous Peanut Farmer. Do yourselves a favor and explore what I have written.

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By Tony Wicher, February 9, 2007 at 4:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #52650 by Lefty on 2/09 at 6:32 am

“So, now the terrorist/suicide bombing/propagandist groups, Fattah and Hamas, have offered to stop murdering each other, and recognize the Nation of Israel, if the U.S. will lift the sanctions and start giving them money, again.”
***********************************************
Lefty: For the Palestinians to “recognize” Israel in its current form would be to recognize the legitimacy of apartheid. They cannot do this. As long as there is apartheid, there will never be a Palestinian state, only what there is now - a Palestinian ghetto. Palestinians will not live in a ghetto any more than Jews will.
When apartheid ends, Israel will continue to be be the one and only Palestinian state. It’s one democratic state or nothing.

Let me picture the end result of transformation as I imagine it might turn out. I envision a country with a population about 45% Jewish, 45% Arab, and 10% other. There would be areas that are largely Jewish and others that are largely Arabic. The most xenophobic Jews and Arabs would natually want to live in the “purest” areas, while there would be mixed communities where more tolerant Jews and Arabs would live as neighbors. It could truly be called a “homeland” by all who live within its borders, Jew, Arab or other.

I think the picture you present of Jews in Israel being completely overwhelmed by Arabs if they give the Palestinian refugees citizenship is far too pessimistic. As Palestinians are re-settled in decent communtites with decent jobs, decent schools, and a decent life, they will have a stake in the existence and prosperity of an Israel of which they are now a part. Jews in Israel are starting out with all the money and all the power; I think they can figure out how to share it without letting go of it completely. If Afrikaners in South Africa could do it, with a much smaller minority of the total popularion, I’m sure Jews in Israel can too.

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By rene, February 9, 2007 at 4:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I do not know how old you people are!  But, let me say that I have been around a long time.  I was born during the depression and around during the second world war.  Do you know what the Jewish People and many other groups went through during the holocaust?  Do you know the centuries of hate and persecution?  Do you know that Jews were slaughtered by Palestinians when they attempted to farm their own purchased land during the 1920’s?  We are We are a book people.  Jesus was a Jew.  He would still be a Jew today. He loved the land, and loved the Torah. Where are your hearts?  Don’t you see that the Arabs just want to destroy Israel and kill Jews?  Look what they are doing to their own people, other people who disagree with them!
Someday they might do it to you and yours too! Hate breeds hate, genocide.  A strong hand is needed with militant Muslims and terrorists.  I learned this the hard way and so will the world.!.

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By Lefty, February 9, 2007 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Comment #52600 by Robert (“Abu”) on 2/08 at 10:36 pm

“Why should Israel be immune from any of the demmands and/or restrictions that were placed on Iraq? The US went to war against Iraq for “WMD’s” and for Iraq’s non-compliance(s) with UN resolutions.”

Because Iraq is a country that was (and still is) under the control of a bunch of psychopathic, nutbags, which had a history of launching non-nuclear missles into Israel on numerous occasions without any reasonable cause whatsoever, and because if Iraq really did have nuclear weapon capability, there is no serious doubt that those missles would have had nuclear warheads on them.  THAT’S WHY, ABU!

In fact, IMHO, right now, while Bush/Cheney & Co. “occupy” the White House, Israel is the only nuclear power in the world who can be trusted with nuclear weapons - to use them only in self defense, as an absolute last resort, to preserve its existence, if possible.

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By Robert, February 9, 2007 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Ole “Stenchy Lefty” is all…alone… in that far away dark alley. He’s got no friends and no one on this & other forums wants to talk to him…!

One can still see that fluorescent “JackAss” tail that has been pinned permanently to his bare behind is still wagging from side to side.

“Stenchy Lefty” deserves credit for his consistency of “diarrhea of the mouth.”

He is not making any damn bit of sense regarding the issues & topic of this forum.

He keeps popping up & crying…Hey folks…‘I am still here. Will someone please talk to me.’

That poor idiot keeps making a damn fool of himself each & everytime. In the meantime, everyone is…LOL…at him!

ZIONISM is wrong. Peace and justice for all people is RIGHT!

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By Robert Griffin, February 9, 2007 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Johnny,
In regards to message 52583
It was the Republicans in congress, the administration, and the media who celebrated democracy while the Iraqi Christians (Chaldeans in the Mosul plain especially) were being denied the vote, and while the Muslims wrote into their constitution that their laws would be drawn from Islam.  The Democrats only followed along.

check out ZindaMagazine for more info on Iraq from an Iraqi Christian perspective.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

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By Lefty, February 9, 2007 at 7:32 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

So, now the terrorist/suicide bombing/propagandist groups, Fattah and Hamas, have offered to stop murdering each other, and recognize the Nation of Israel, if the U.S. will lift the sanctions and start giving them money, again.

WHAT A DEAL!  HOW COULD ANYONE IN THEIR RIGHT MIND NOT FALL FOR THAT ONE!  BECAUSE, NO ONE REALLY WANTS THEM TO CONTINUE MURDERING EACH OTHER, DO THEY!

So, what do you think they’ll do with the money?  Surely, they wouldn’t use it to make more suicide bombs and shrapnel rockets to target innocent Israeli civilians, just like they’ve been doing all along with the money they received from the U.S., would they? Certainly, they can be trusted to keep their word, this time!  wink

But, I wonder why it is that the terrorist/suicide bombing/propagandist groups, Fattah and Hamas, aren’t able to obtain the financial support of Iran and Syria, the way the terrorist/suicide bombing/propagandist group, Hizbollah, is able to do?

Maybe a Hamas/Fatah insider would know the answer to that question!

Fadel? Ester (aka Mahmood)? Abu (aka Robert)? Big Al (aka Big Ali)?

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By Robert, February 8, 2007 at 11:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Mad From Hell” comments:

“Face it Robert: You just hate Jews, see them as the cause of all the trouble in the Middle East, and want them to GO AWAY. And if they all die too bad.”

I see that you are going for that familiar zionist-Israeli slogans “Kill Palestinians/Arabs and then Cry Anti-Semitism”.

Which country in the Middle-East has large undeclared stockpiles of nuclear weapons?

Which country in the Middle-East has large undeclared stockpiles of chemical & biological weapons?

Which country in the Middle-East has NO outside inspections of its (WMD’s) nuclear, chemical & biological warehouses/factories?

ITS ISRAEL…and NOT Iraq !

Why should Israel be immune from any of the demmands and/or restrictions that were placed on Iraq? The US went to war against Iraq for “WMD’s” and for Iraq’s non-compliance(s) with UN resolutions.

Why not send “WMD” inspection teams to Israel to verify what they have & why not place the same demands on Israel to comply with UN Resolutions, especially, UN Resolution 242, which is binding, 338 & 194? We can start by halting American aid $$ & diplomatic support; I am sure that will help the process to where Israel needs to be…in its pre-June 1967 borders (references UN Resoultions 242, 338 & 194).

“Mad from Hell”, why don’t you clean up your “Israel’s” house first, and when you do just that, you can go to the neighbor’s house to inpect and clean up when needed.

This conflict is about land and resources. Land that was taken by terror, force & illegaly. Zionism wants all the land and its resources, but WITHOUT any Palestinians around. 

ZIONISM IS WRONG. Human Rights for all people is RIGHT !

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By Johnny, February 8, 2007 at 8:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Response to Tony Wicher:

Forget about your “One Democratic State Solution” in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in the Middle East.
The U.S. cannot even achieve a democratic solution in Iraq. This is a country where the U.S. has a full military presence and chaos still reigns supreme.
The Arab Muslim nations do not want your multi-cultural democracy idea in their region.
Without the cooperation of the 22 Arab Muslim regimes your idea is dead in the water.
The U.S. can no longer affect change in that region. The American people have declared, by their vote in the Nov. 2006 election, that they want out of that region.
Israel can no longer rely on the U.S. in that part of the world.
The idiot democrats in the Congress have turned this war into another Vietnam and the U.S. once again looks like a paper tiger.
Instead of supporting democracy in that region, they now look to run away.
The Democrats are now only looking to take the White House in 2009. They care nothing about what hapless fools we look like in the eyes of the world.
Israel would be foolish to rely on the U.S. for monetary or military support if they found themselves on the short end of the stick in a new democratic one state solution for Jews & Palestinian Muslim Arabs.
If the Jews were voted out of power, by an Arab   Muslims majority population and laws were passed creating a Muslim state, what would the U.S. do about it ? Answer: NOTHING.
The democrats in Congress would state that there were free elections in this democratic country of Muslims and Jews and the Muslims won.
The Jews in Israel can never allow such a possibility to happen. Their lives are on the line and this political experiment would not be in their best interest.
The Arab Muslim regimes have shown no interest in allowing a democratic Palestinian/Jewish state.
Even Jimmy Carter recommends a two state solution.
Again, a one state solution is not possible !
Your plan is foolish and does not deal with the political & religious realities in that part of the world.

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By Fadel Abdallah, February 8, 2007 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Peace Supporters only!
Please read and sign the petition to ban the delivery of M26 Cluster Bombs and other weapons of mass destruction!
======================
State Department Report Delivered to Pelosi and Biden
February 7, 2007

At the height of the Israeli war against Hezbollah last summer, in which hundreds of civilians living in southern Lebanon were killed, the U.S. rushed a request from Israel for more than 1,300 American-made M26 cluster bombs. The request prompted an outcry in Congress and elsewhere that the artillery rockets, which disperse 644 submunitions each, might be used in civilian areas, contrary to the terms of the U.S. Arms Export Control Act. Last week, the Department of State delivered a preliminary report to Nancy Pelosi, Speaker of the House, and to Sen. Joseph Biden, chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, that is said by the news media to accuse Israel of exactly these charges.

A petition banning the use of cluster bombs and demanding an urgent clean-up of the more than 1 million cluster-bomblets sprayed over southern Lebanon has been launched by the American Task Force for Lebanon, a non-profit non-sectarian group based in Washington, DC. We urge our members to join the campaign that has been endorsed by Ralph Nader by signing their petition: “Stop the Carnage, Ban the Cluster Bomb.”

Sign the petition to stop the carnage and ban the cluster bomb!

http://action.atfl.org/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=6641&track=cni

In the closing days of the war, after a deadline had been set by the U.N. and accepted by both the Israelis and Hezbollah and 72 hours before the ceasefire was to go into effect, the Israeli military fired thousands of cluster munitions into southern Lebanon, leaving behind a deadly legacy. As of January 25, 2007, the United Nations Mine Action Coordination Center South Lebanon (http://www.mineaction.org/overview.asp?o=540) confirms that 30 people have been killed and 184 injured from unexploded ordnance since August 14, when hostilities between Hezbollah and Israel ended. Many of the casualties have been children.

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By Mad as Hell, February 8, 2007 at 1:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

““Mad From Hell” is still spewing that ole zionist crap and trying sooooooooooo hard to sidetrack the discussion of this forum’s topic. He is boasting about Israel’s democracy & its record on Human Rights. One can just take a look at B’Tselem’s, Israel’s information center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, records and statistics. The Israeli brutalities, killings and injustices against the Palestinian people are sinful. “

Uh-huh…but, of course, Syria’s isn’t. Syria is a model of freedom, right? As are ALL the other Arab states that have been doing everything possible to egg the Palestinians on to keep up the terror that makes peace impossible. The ONLY thing that will result from your intense desire to destroy Israel is another genocide.  Face it Robert: You just hate Jews, see them as the cause of all the trouble in the Middle East, and want them to GO AWAY.  And if they all die, too bad.

As if that would solve anything in the Middle East
As if they would just allow that to happen again.

As if…

Why don’t you go make up some more insults?  Since you don’t have any sound arguments that’s all you have left.

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By Esther, February 8, 2007 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert is so right: “In the meantime, AIPAC, Zionism and Israel are demanding from the USA, ‘Just keep giving us all the $$MONEY$$ and stay the hell out of our business.’”

Isn’t it amazing, Robert?

You know, if our government were behaving monstrously in the pursuit of America’s selfish material interests, that would be bad enough.

But our government is behaving monstrously in the pursuit of a FOREIGN nation’s selfish material interests - and AGAINST ours!

And Americans wonder why the world has the impression that we’re stupid.

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By Lefty, February 8, 2007 at 11:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Comment #52376 by Tony Wicher on 2/07 at 7:52 pm

“You’re all heart, Lefty! At least you came down from “never” to a century. If I can get you down to only ten years, we might have a deal! I figure that’s how long it might reasonably take to get the Palestinians more or less re-settled and integrated. It also happens to be the period of time of the “Hudna” or truce being proposed by some members of Hamas. It might be something to work with.”

You’re on the right track, but, you’re preaching to the choir.  It’s the Arabs you should be preaching to.  The ball is in their court.  So far, they have established that 1) they don’t want peace with Israel, 2) they don’t want a 2 state solution, 3) they want Israel. 

That is not a serious or rational option or a solution, Tony.  I feel pretty confident that Israel is NEVER going to give up and disolve itself. I also feel confident that the Arabs will never be able to take Israel by force, as much as they would want to, without the mutual distruction of Israel and the Arabs.

10 years! Good luck!  I think 100 - 200 years is much more realistic.

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By Tony Wicher, February 8, 2007 at 10:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #52313 by judaizante on 2/07 at 2:23 pm

Everybody, check out this article in today’s NY Times. This is the best news I have heard in a long time! I will just copy the start of it here. The link to the full article is

http://select.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?emc=tnt&tntget=2007/02/08/world/middleeast/08israel.html&tntemail0=y

“NOTED ARAB CITIZENS CALL ON ISRAEL TO SHED JEWISH IDENTIY”

By ISABEL KERSHNER
Published: February 8, 2007
JERUSALEM, Feb. 7 — A group of prominent Israeli Arabs has called on Israel to stop defining itself as a Jewish state and become a “consensual democracy for both Arabs and Jews,” prompting consternation and debate across the country.”

http://select.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?emc=tnt&tntget=2007/02/08/world/middleeast/08israel.html&tntemail0=y


Oh, yes!!! A tsunami of awareness is gathering!!! Israeli Arab citizens are joining in solidarity with their brothers and sisters in the occupied territories in a non-violent struggle for human rights! Israeli people of conscience, join them! Together you shall prevail!!!!!

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By Tony Wicher, February 8, 2007 at 9:40 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #52391 by Big Al on 2/07 at 10:19 pm

Remember that moment in the film, “American Beauty”, when the marriage between Kevin Spacey and Annette Benning has fallen apart, and he says to her, in a moment of clarity:

“YOU

Don’t get to tell ME

WHAT to do

ANY MORE.”

Well, in the next few years, the American people are finally going to say that to the Israel lobby. Just you watch.
**********************************************

Big Al,

I love that movie. I’ve watched it many times.

What I hope is that the American people reject imperialism, militarism and jingoism in favor of a genuine policy of peace, democracy and human rights, both at home and abroad. The U.S./Israel axis is one of the most important parts of that hegemonic policy. As I keep saying, however, Israel is not really telling the American people what to do. Israeli leaders are just going along with what Exxon, Haliburton, etc. want. These imperialists are the real power. It is they who subvert our democracy and are telling both the American people and the Israeli people what to do, dragging us into war for oil and defense contracts. The day we tell these bastards that they can’t tell us what to do anymore is the day I’m looking forward to. I am hoping that the Iraq fiasco will be the catalyst.

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By John Hanks, February 8, 2007 at 7:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

If someone says something bad about any group of people, I usually believe them unless the bad stuff is too theatrical.  Human beings are vicious scavengers and predators who have developed the arts of force and fraud since before they came out of the trees.

There is the ugly American, perfidious Albion, shifty Arabs and cunning Jews.  Whoever is playing the role of a crook at a certain time needs a lot of suckers and many many lazy cowards.
Israel is run by crooks today.  America was run by genocidal maniacs 200 years ago.  The British have set us up with half the conflicts of the world that we are still stuck with today.  The real problem is that all of our social institutions pander to the half-educated lower middle class while elevating criminals to the top.

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By Mad As Hell, February 8, 2007 at 5:05 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony,
You are right: We ARE discussing Carter’s book.  But the question of Israel’s actions cannot be divorced from the actions of her immediate neighbors, and the threat to her existence.

Make no mistake: I do not unconditionally support any and all of Israel’s actions, but I DO support her right to exist, and to exist as a free, democratic state.  And I DO think the United States should use it’s enormous influence on Israel to prevent excesses.

But what you fail to acknowledge is that Israel IS a democracy, and, like ours, it swings between reasonable leaders and a fanatical nutty right with a plan and a agenda that ignores facts, reality, and even morality. Here, we call it the alliance between the “Christian” fundamentalists (I don’t believe they are even vaguely Christian) and the neo-cons (who aren’t even vaguely Conservative) with their PNAC.  In Israel it is Likud and the ultra-orthodox.  Each works hard to undo the progess made by the sane, even when it’s clearly working.

But your idealistic view that just let all the Palestinians in and give them a vote is simply, wholly unrealistic and ignores the SIMPLE facts that there are major elements in the area to whom a even your IDEAL would not change anything.

I keep asking this: In light of the Syrian, Iranians (via Hezbollah) and the fundamentalist continual efforts to undermine and disrupt democracy in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories, do you think they would not do the same if Israel became a your “utopian” Arab-majority democratic state?  Of COURSE they would—Can you deny it and be honest with yourself?

Now this IS relevant to the topic, because Mr. Carter (whom I greatly admire) has used a trigger-word. He’s done it to create debate, but it is my contention (and I’ve made it before) that the South African model, both during Apartheid and after, isn’t appropriate.  Israeli “Apartheid” (and I use the word deliberately in quotes) is clearly NOT based on racism (yeah, that will be challenged) but TOTALLY as a response to a constant increase in violence and ESPECIALLY terrorism coming out of the territories.

Putting up a wall is like putting up a metal detector at an airport.  Not to do it would be negligent.  Yeah, the location IS a problem—but that’s not been discussed here, only the RIGHT of Israel to do so.  I’m sorry, if you have porous border and it’s being used by terrorists, it is IRRESPONSIBLE not to shut it down.

Plus the WORST thing for the critics is that the damn wall has WORKED! Terrorist incidents inside of Israel that are based in the West Bank HAVE dropped dramatically—and the various gangs and thugs are taking it out on the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle.

You know, I MIGHT have a grudging sympathy for the Palestinians if their guerrilla attacks were on military and strategic targets, but they are not.  They are not even indiscriminately launching attacks that hit civilians—they are DELIBERATELY targeting the innocent. When a suicide bomber walks into a wedding, or a pizza parlor filled with children and detonates his bomb, he is not doing ANYTHING that can be justified. His action is morally bankrupt.

If they were TRULY what they are accused of, they would have adopted the Soviet policy of wiping out the extended families of terrorists. But there ARE elements in Israeli society that would have no problem with the Soviet strategy.  If the Arab side ceases terrorism, those fascists will NOT get to come to power.

Curiously, the wall may WELL prevent the nutty right from coming to power in Israel.

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By Robert, February 8, 2007 at 4:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #52390 by Esther on 2/7 @ 10:11 pm

“Lefty, the wall is built entirely OUTSIDE ISRAEL. It encompasses numerous settlements - some huge, and all illegal. It even runs along the Jordan river. It’s massive land-grab and strangulation tool.”


Esther, Israel’s Apartheid wall reveals Israel’s greedy and illegal ways. Its is Israel ways of annexing Palestinian land. Their plan and goals is to keep building and expanding “Jewish settlements/colonies” in the Occupied Territories with the end results of “TOTAL ANNEXATION” of the West Bank. This is zionism’s goal!

Israel will continue along this annexation route so long as AIPAC’s ‘MASTERS’ “Cheney & George W”,  congressmen & senators are still in office.

The sad story to this “Apartheid” wall and Israel’s Jewish settlements/colonies is that all their fundings are all paid for by us, the American Taxpayers. Without our American aid of $3-5 billion dollars per year & diplomatic support…Israel could NOT have built all those illegal settlements & this huge ugly “Apartheid” wall.

One can see a picture of that Ole “Stenchy Lefty”  wearing his IDF uniform, proudly standing on top of that huge Israeli Apartheid wall holding that Israeli flag in one hand & a banner “Israel Zionist Democracy for Jews Only” in the other hand…yep he is out there and ready with his UZI to shoot any Palestinian child who dares to throw a stone at his brutal & racist occupier.

“Mad From Hell” is still spewing that ole zionist crap and trying sooooooooooo hard to sidetrack the discussion of this forum’s topic. He is boasting about Israel’s democracy & its record on Human Rights. One can just take a look at B’Tselem’s, Israel’s information center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, records and statistics. The Israeli brutalities, killings and injustices against the Palestinian people are sinful.

In the meantime, AIPAC, Zionism and Israel are demanding from our USA ‘Just keep giving us all the $$MONEY$$ and stay the hell out of our business.’ We do not answer to anybody, but we are a ‘democracy’!

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