Top Leaderboard, Site wide
September 22, 2014
Truthdig: Drilling Beneath the Headlines
Help us grow by sharing
and liking Truthdig:
Sign up for Truthdig's Email NewsletterLike Truthdig on FacebookFollow Truthdig on TwitterSubscribe to Truthdig's RSS Feed

Newsletter

sign up to get updates


The Coming Climate Revolt




A Chronicle of Echoes


Truthdig Bazaar more items

 
Report

Sheinbaum: Carter’s ‘Apartheid’ Mistake

Email this item Email    Print this item Print    Share this item... Share

Posted on Dec 22, 2006
Sheinbaum and Carter
Sheinbaum: Jewish Journal; Carter: Amazon.com

Stanley Sheinbaum and the cover of Jimmy Carter’s new book.

By Joshua Scheer

Truthdig speaks with the internationally renowned diplomat, peace activist and scholar Stanley Sheinbaum about Jimmy Carter’s controversial new book, “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.”

Sheinbaum has long been active in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. In 1988 he headed a nongovernmental delegation of five American Jews that succeeded in getting Yasser Arafat to recognize Israel and to disavow terrorism.

He has been a board member of the International Center for Peace in the Middle East in Tel Aviv since 1982 and a board member of Americans for Peace Now since 1988.

He was chairman of the American Civil Liberties Foundation of Southern California and a regent of the University of California.

Currently the publisher of New Perspectives Quarterly, Sheinbaum remains active in Mideast peace efforts, along with a host of other progressive issues. He speaks here with Truthdig research editor Joshua Scheer.

Advertisement

Square, Site wide

Truthdig: What is your impression of the Jimmy Carter book?

Sheinbaum: Very serious, very intelligently written and laid out; putting in all sorts of components that were important to have included, such as the records of the various agreements that were made, starting way back in the first century and bringing it right up to date in about a dozen pages.

 
 

Truthdig: It’s called “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.”  How does this come up?

Sheinbaum: My take on it was that Carter was trying to use the concept of apartheid as a way of creating an interest in the problem, but not making an accusation about it, [not] that this was an apartheid scheme as we understand it from South Africa, but rather that there were components that should lead to a discussion and have Jews everywhere thinking about what the implications of the policy were.  And the major component, as you probably know, is the occupation of Palestinian lands, especially in the West Bank, which is not considered part of Israel, or hasn’t been.  But a number of Israelis and hard-line American Jews have wanted to consider it [a part of Israel].

Truthdig: Is Carter critical of the Palestinians and their involvement in bombings and actions of that sort?

Sheinbaum: Yeah, he gets into the question. Especially of Hamas, which he practically calls a terrorist organization.

Truthdig: Would you call it a balanced book?

Sheinbaum: Yes.

Truthdig: Some have criticized the book [as] not being historically accurate, that it lacks some facts. Did you find that to be true?

Sheinbaum: No.  As I said, he has a chronology going way back to the first century, with the various components, and bringing it up to the 21st century; various agreements that were made, [and] when they were not adhered to, when they were adhered to, and he is very articulate about that.

Truthdig: Some of his other books have been about a less controversial subject matter; do you think he knew what he was getting into when he wrote this book?

Sheinbaum: I think he made a serious mistake, to answer that question, when he applied the term “apartheid.”  He was hoping to use the concept of apartheid as something that would create a dialogue or a debate.  But instead, it created accusations against him, that he was equating what was going on in the occupied lands with what went on in South Africa.

Truthdig: So in your mind his only mistake was using the term “apartheid”?

Sheinbaum: Yes.

Truthdig: Is it a good book?

Sheinbaum: It’s a good book.

Truthdig: Did he recognize his role in possibly contributing to the creation of Al Qaeda, and therefore increasing terrorism, through his actions in Afghanistan when he was president of the United States, or was that not in the book?

Sheinbaum: I don’t recall that being in the book.

Truthdig: It’s interesting because of [Zbigniew] Brzezinski [the architect of the strategy of supporting the mujahedeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets; the Afghan “freedom fighters” later formed the Taliban]... .

Sheinbaum: Yeah, the one thing that sort of startled me was that he talks about Bill Clinton as having been determined to bring about peace between Palestinians and the Israelis. But then under Bill Clinton’s tenure, the Israelis occupied much of the West Bank.  And it’s almost as if Clinton sanctioned that.

Truthdig: Do you think Clinton did that?  Do you think that was a mistake in the book not to mention it?

Sheinbaum: No, I think that was a mistake on Clinton’s part.

Truthdig: You were intimately involved in the peace process.  Can you explain what you did, and would that method perhaps work today?

Sheinbaum: No, it’s not as easy today.  The tensions are greater, the divisions are greater, and the self-interest is stronger than ever, on both sides. The Israelis are moving into large areas of the West Bank, and for the Palestinians this is a hostile thing to do; it keeps them further from coming to terms with the Israelis.

Truthdig: How did you help to create peace, if only temporarily?

Sheinbaum: Well what I did, as you may know, I organized a group of five American Jews including myself, to go deal with Arafat, who was then the leader in some vague way of the Palestinians.  [We tried] to get him to accept ... Israel as a national state, and to disavow terrorism, which he did ... and that was a significant thing to do, and then there was a lot of pressure on him from the hard-line Palestinian side to back off.

Truthdig: Is that why the peace did not last?

Sheinbaum: It didn’t last ... because the intensity from the hard-line Palestinian side was very strong.

Truthdig: When you went to meet with Arafat, what was the reaction in the Jewish community?

Sheinbaum: Very negative.

Truthdig: Why was that?

Sheinbaum: At one point, when I got back, there where dead pigs thrown in my driveway.

Truthdig: Is there any way to take action toward peace without having such hate directed at you?

Sheinbaum: Well, anyone who talks to an enemy is himself an enemy.

Truthdig: Was this worth it to you?

Sheinbaum: Well, I got Arafat to accept the concept [of an Israeli state], and to disavow terrorism.

Truthdig: In your estimation, is there any politician out there today with a plan, or at least the courage to take on this issue and risk being labeled an anti-Semite?

Sheinbaum: I’m really not aware of anyone.

Truthdig: I’m still having a hard time understanding why people would be so opposed to your efforts to foster peace. Why would they call you a Jew-hater and an anti-Semite, especially since you are Jewish?

Sheinbaum: In political conflict you get these kinds of reactions. If they’re not on your side and there are political things at stake, then the antipathies are really very strong. 

Truthdig: This is a quagmire, probably the worst situation in the world. 

Sheinbaum: Oh yeah, this cannot go on.

Truthdig: What could fix the problem?  As you said, the divisions are great, so the peace efforts that worked before will likely not work again.  So what could work now?

Sheinbaum: There are tensions in the Middle East that are now very strong and could lead to explosions of an undetermined nature, and everything must be done to stop that. 

Truthdig: Do you have a plan for that yet?

Sheinbaum: No.

Truthdig: Are you working on one?

Sheinbaum: No, I’m not. ... I’m not allowed to travel anymore.  I have had some physical problems. ... And to get involved in an active way ... [when] you can’t travel—it’s almost impossible. I should say that I’m trying to keep in touch with those American and international Jews who think similarly to myself.

Truthdig: So you are still as active as you can be without being able to travel?

Sheinbaum: Yeah.

Truthdig: Do you think Carter’s book is a good attempt to try to find a peaceful solution?

Sheinbaum: Yeah, and I think it’s unfortunate that provocative term “apartheid” was included, because it’s turning people against the book.  People like Alan Dershowitz and Marty Peretz of The New Republic are misinterpreting it.

Truthdig: Dershowitz wrote that he was upset by Carter’s unwillingness to engage in a public debate.  Would you like to see a debate?

Sheinbaum: Sure.

Truthdig: So the “apartheid” term is really the key point here?

Sheinbaum: It’s the trigger.

Truthdig: They probably intended to use it to sell books, with that powerful word, and now it seems to have blown up in their face.

Sheinbaum: No, I don’t want to impute that motivation to him [Carter].  I think he was sincere; I don’t know him that well.  They may have been hoping that the term would trigger a debate.

Truthdig: And it obviously did.

Sheinbaum: Yeah, but to an extent those who are using it are trying to invalidate the book itself.

Truthdig: Thanks so much for your time.


New and Improved Comments

If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

By Righty, March 23, 2007 at 11:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
Since the Arab Muslims on the West Bank and in other so called “Arab land”,are not legitimate states, there is no occupation of these lands by Israel. These have been and are disputed territories.
Jerusalem is not under dispute. The very name is of Jewish origin. It is amazing how the world has the nerve to use the name Jerusalem and then say it is not a Jewish city. If this is not insane nothing is. It was the capital city of Judea and will continue to be for all eternity.
Sorry Federer, you are wrong again.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 23, 2007 at 12:04 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #59633 by Mad As Hell on 3/21 at 3:45 am

So I goofed on Jordan. OK. I admit it.  But I did NOT goof on Syria—remember Syria, Robert?

And you STILL refuse to address my 3 questions.  The comment on Jordan was as close as you came.

Instead, like a spoiled child, you call me names.

But you NEVER take up the questions…because you have no answer to them.

1) Why is only Israel held to a multi-cultural Western liberal standard but not her neighbors?
************************************************
Mad,

Nobody in his right mind says Egypt or Saudi Arabia are democracies. Whereas Israel claims to be one. If the only argument for Israel is that they are no worse than the other guys, there are no moral grounds for supporting them. Let Israel admit that it is an apartheid state, and express a willingness to correct the situation, and we will all be in a much stronger position to talk about the democratic deficiencies of the Arab states. Democracy begins at home. Besides, the only Arab state that is coming close to doing what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is Sudan. So, yes, I condmn the government of Sudan as strongly as that of Israel. How’s that? Satisfied?

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 22, 2007 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Just a torrent of childish abuse and dirty words from Robert.  No facts, no arguments, just name-calling.  Typical nazi/fascist reaction to sound arguments he can’t answer—heap abuse.

At least I’m MAN enough to admit a mistake. You can’t say that.

As for Federer, he keeps dodging the issue with a pedantic torrent of, of, of,.... well, of the same thing over and over again.  A mark of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over, despite it failing.  Federer has not ONCE attempted to answer legitimate questions…as if, like the neo-cons in the White House, if you repeat a lie long enough, and loudly enough, people will believe it.

But, like George Bush, the lies eventually collapse in on themselves and people stop believing them…and start FINALLY to think for themselves.

And Federer, if YOU think Israel’s neighbors are SO much better than her, I suggest you move yourself and your family to that “paradise” where you will learn just what kind of “bliss” everyone outside of Israel in the Middle East lives in—unless they are a hideously wealthy sheik like the Sauds and the Al Sabahs and their cronies (Like the bin Ladens).

Report this

By Righty, March 22, 2007 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
You showed up again with some more long winded pro-Arab propaganda. However you still did not answer my comment#58340.
It is now very obvious that you cannot without showing the true hate the Arab Muslims have for Jews or any non-Muslim people.
Federer, Israel has no choice but to continue its fight against Arab plans for her total destruction.

Report this

By Federer, March 22, 2007 at 9:30 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Bottom line:

(1) Israel has state power and so primary responsibility for forging a just peace, according to international law. Such law fundamantally includes the UN Charter, which Israel committed to “be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations” in its Declaration of Israel’s Independence May, 1948.
http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter1.htm
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/israel.htm

(2) As Occupying Power, Israel has responsibilities—not rights—under international law. Israel’s primary responsibility is to withdraw as quickly as possible from the Palestinian territories (OPT), in a manner determined by the occupied population. A military occupation is considered an undesirable regime that should be ended as soon as possible, not continued for four decades (Israel holds the world record since WWII). After WWII, an international law principle has been that a state is not permitted to acquire any new territory by war, conquest or threat of force. As well, international law makes it illegal for Israel to settle its population in occupied territories. For nearly 40 years the UN has condemned Israel’s military occupation, together with its colonialism and apartheid, as contrary to the international public order.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dugard.html
http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/4session/A.HRC.4.17.pdf

(3) Thus, since 1967—with the adoption of UN Security Council Resolution 242—Israel has failed its responsibilities as the Occupying Power and as the UN member-state to end its occupation and withdraw from all the occupied territories originally allocated to the Palestine Arab state by the same UN General Assembly resolution 181(II) that Israel used to declare its independence.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/a06f2943c226015c85256c40005d359c/7f0af2bd897689b785256c330061d253!OpenDocument

(4) This Israel-Arab Conflict could have been fully settled by the mid 1970s or earlier. But Israel greedily coveted more Arab land. The occupation of Arab lands was not necessary to protect Israel’s security: “Senator [J.William Fulbright] proposed in 1970 that America should guarantee Israel’s security in a formal treaty, protecting her with armed forces if necessary. In return, Israel would retire to the borders of 1967. The UN Security Council would guarantee this arrangement, and thereby bring the Soviet Union—then a supplier of arms and political aid to the Arabs—into compliance. As Israeli troops were withdrawn from the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank they would be replaced by a UN peacekeeping force. Israel would agree to accept a certain number of Palestinians and the rest would be settled in a Palestinian state outside Israel. “The plan drew favorable editorial support in the United States. The proposal, however, was flatly rejected by Israel. ‘The whole affair disgusted Fulbright,’ writes [his biographer Randall] Woods. ‘The Israelis were not even willing to act in their own self-interest.’” Allan Brownfield in “Issues of the American Council for Judaism.” Fall 1997.[Ed.-This was one of many such proposals]”
http://www.cactus48.com/1967war.html

(5) For 40 years, Israel has voluntarily continued its illegal occupation of the OPT because it wanted to illegally settle and keep as much of this land as possible. Since the late 1960s, Israel has been rejecting peace offers from the Arabs and, since the mid 1970s, from the Palestinians (Israel finally made bilateral deals with Egypt in 1978 to and Jordan in 1994, after initially rejecting their repeated attempts). However until relatively recently Israel had not decided how much Palestinian land to take and how to take it. Israel’s propaganda and the Western media have successfully obfuscated the fact that the ongoing conflict is the result of a voluntary Israeli policy, in which Arabs and Palestinians play a secondary role.
http://antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=3660

Report this

By Robert, March 21, 2007 at 11:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“mad from hell” your “goofus” attempts to sidetrack the topic of this forum/thread is NOT going to work.

Your goofy questions are really not worth the time. You can keep boasting about your zionist apartheid Israel till the cows come home.

One should clean his/her house before going out there to inspect the neighbor’s houses.

Your zionist propaganda crap is not going anywhere. You are sinking deeper in your own manure. You are not making a bit of sense. You are just foaming at the mouth & that is about all you have! Hit that trail…and join the humanity department of your IDF!

Here is one more “home run” for your Israeli democracy “Nazi-Style” you can boast about to your zionist pals.

The photos & the print do tell us the TRUTH & the STORY…so click to see for yourself or yourselves!


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=687

Report this

By Righty, March 21, 2007 at 5:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
Where are you? Still waiting for you to respond to my comment#58340.
Where are those objective peace loving Arab polls which confirm that Jews should have equal religious rights with Muslims in a one state solution?
Where are they Federer? I am getting real tired. I have been waiting for days and you have not responded. Did I finally get the better of you?
If you cannot produce those objective polls your arguments against Israel’s position fails.

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 21, 2007 at 4:45 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

So I goofed on Jordan. OK. I admit it.  But I did NOT goof on Syria—remember Syria, Robert?

And you STILL refuse to address my 3 questions.  The comment on Jordan was as close as you came.

Instead, like a spoiled child, you call me names.

But you NEVER take up the questions…because you have no answer to them.

1) Why is only Israel held to a multi-cultural Western liberal standard but not her neighbors?

2) Why should she cede territory to nations with which she is at war (Syria STILL applies)?

3) Why do the Arab states do EVERYTHING they can to violently destroy Democracy in the ONLY Arab entities WITH Democracy—Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority—and why won’t they do that to Israel if she became “multicultural” as in 1)?
(Hint: They HATE democracy and fear it)

Until then you are just functioning like Karl Rove’s Malevolent Mischief Machine—throwing any kind of slur you can and seeing what sticks, regardless of whether it’s fact or fiction.

The ONLY fact about you I’m sure of is you hate Israel and want to see it obliterated. Why? I don’t know because your “humanist” concerns are crap—you’d be just as hard on the Arab states for human rights if that REALLY was your concern.  But since you don’t, I can only assume your “humanist” concern for the Palestinians is a threadbare cover for your fundamental anti-semitism.

Report this

By Robert, March 20, 2007 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer…Your responses(Part 1-3) to the fanatics “mad from hell”  & “righty” are just outstanding. These guys are just out there spewing crap with no basis or any value. They just have NO options but just keep repeating that same ole “zionist propaganda” about their apartheid Israel.

Mad from hell, can’t even get his zionist propaganda right. He writes in comment #58693, on 3/14, that Israel is still at war with Jordan. What happened to the peace treaty that was signed between Israel & Jordan when king Hussein was still alive? What happened to the Israeli embassy in Amman, Jordan and vice versa? Israeli tourists are flocking to Jordan on a daily basis. Is this a state of war?

These zionists are not interested in the TRUTH; their main purpose on this & other forums is to plant doubt & that same ole “anti-semitism” sidetracking crap tactics . What a bunch of one track minds pure idiots.

Federer…your TRUTH & information are right to the core. These zionists just can’t take it; they are too infected with their hate, zionism’s racism & theories.

Federer…Just keep up with that great job of conveying the TRUTH. Let those zionists just keep grunting with their pains & agony.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 20, 2007 at 11:59 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hurray for Norway, leading the world to peace and democracy!!! Check out this story. It could be very significant. I’m sure Mr. Johansen advised Mr. Haniyeh to adopt a policy of peaceful democratic struggle. Israel rejects democracy as usual – no surprise. But Zionist rejectionism is in its last throes, is what I say. Through nonviolent democratic struggle the Palestinians will overcome. Those advising armed struggle are merely leading the Palestinian people to their deaths. We should all be emailing Mr. Haniyeh to persuade him of this, as we should be emailing Obama with our proposals.  Here is the link:

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-03-20T133703Z_01_L2042563_RTRUKOC_0_US-PALESTINIANS-ISRAEL-NORWAY.xml&src=nl_ustopnewsearly

Report this

By Righty, March 19, 2007 at 3:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
You continue your one sided view of Arab history in the Middle East.
You have still refused to give me the objective polls I asked you for in my #58340 post.
Instead you continue to rant on with your one sided attack against the Jewish state of Israel.
Continue your long winded one sided pro-Arab propaganda campaign. It really does not matter what a prejudice jerk like yourself says.
Everyone realizes how one sided you are.

Report this

By Federer, March 18, 2007 at 1:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ISRAEL’S REJECTION OF PEACE (PART 3)

In 1977, Egypt, Syria and Jordan informed the US that they would sign peace treaties with Israel as part of an overall Middle East settlement. Again most of these efforts were opposed by Israel.

In 1977, Arafat called for a two-state settlement by peaceful means—the PLO was willing to accept the concept of an independent Palestinian state consisting of the West Bank and Gaza, accept all United Nations resolutions pertaining to the Middle East adopted since 1947, give de facto recognition to Israel, renounce violence against Israel and authorize Palestinian attendance at an Arab-Israeli peace conference.

Israeli Prime Minister Yitzak Rabin responded to Arafat’s peace offer: “the only place the Israelis could meet the Palestinian guerrillas was on the field of battle.”

In May 1978, New York Times reported that Arafat said that “the only possible solution” to the Middle East problem is for the U.S. and the Soviet Union to provide guarantees for both Israel and a Palestinian state. Arafat said he favored the 1976 U.S.-Soviet declaration that had proposed recognizing “the legitimate rights of the Palestinians” and ensuring Israel’s security. Israel strongly opposed that joint declaration and it was abandoned. In December 1978, the PLO’s representative in France, said in a speech to the American Club in Paris, “If a Palestinian state existed, the PLO would stop violent attacks against Israel and give it de facto recognition.”

In November 1978, Congressman Paul Findley (R-IL) met with Arafat in Damascus and afterward told reporters that the PLO leader had accepted the principles of Resolution 242 and was ready to accept a U.N. peacekeeping force after the creation of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Findley said he offered to brief the Carter administration on Arafat’s statements but had received no response from either the Carter White House or the State Department.

By the early 1980s, Israel was getting annoyed with this bad behaviour from the PLO. Arafat kept insisting on a negotiated settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict and the world was beginning to notice these pathetic Palestinian calls for peace. Thus Israel used violence to end these peace calls. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 with the aim to destroy and remove the PLO as a factor in negotiations for the occupied territories, especially West Bank and East Jerusalem (in Israel, it was openly called “a war for the occupied territories”). Israel’s war killed 20,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, mostly women and children. The facts clearly prove that in the year preceding the war, Israel was the aggressive party plotting, attacking and provoking the PLO. 

The matter reached a head in 1988, when the PLO moved from tacit approval to formal acceptance of the two-state consensus. Israel responded with a declaration that there can be no “additional Palestinian state between Jordan and the sea”—Shimon Peres and Yitzhak Shamir considered Jordan to already be a ‘Palestinian state’—and also that the status of the territories must be settled according to Israeli guidelines. The U.S. endorsed Israel’s stand.

Robert. Malley noted that, at the Camp David 2000 talks, the Palestinians had agreed to negotiate a solution to the refugee issue that would not end up threatening Israel’s Jewish majority. “No other Arab party that has negotiated with Israel—not Anwar el-Sadat’s Egypt, not King Hussein’s Jordan, let alone Hafez al-Assad’s Syria—ever came close to even considering such compromises,” he said. Uri Avnery noted that “The Egyptian leader (Sadat) demanded and received every last inch of his territories (Sinai occupied by Israel in its 1967 war), with all the settlements in it dismantled, including the town of Yamit. He would never have agreed to the kind of compromises made by Arafat.”

The Palestinians have always been willing to compromise and make peace. But every victim has its limits.

Report this

By Federer, March 18, 2007 at 12:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

ISRAEL’S REJECTION OF PEACE (PART 2)

In 1976 and 1980, Israel—through the US—rejected Palestinian and Arab peace attempts in the UN Security Council:

- In January 1976, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and the PLO—solidly supported by the UN General Assembly—brought a resolution to the U.N. Security Council (S/11940) calling for a settlement based on Israel’s return to its pre-June 1967 borders, “with appropriate arrangements to guarantee the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of all states in the region and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries.” The draft resolution incorporated the basic wording of UN 242, supplemented by a call for a Palestinian state in the occupied territories. In the Security Council, the U.S. was the only country that voted against this peace proposal, thus vetoing this draft resolution on behalf of Israel.  http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/9a798adbf322aff38525617b006d88d7/696d540fd7821bce0525651c00736250!OpenDocument&Highlight=2,S/11940
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/0/d0242e9e210d937585256c6e0054df8a?OpenDocument

- In April 1980, the US (Jimmy Carter’s administration!) again vetoed a Security Council resolution (S/13911) almost identical to the 1976 resolution.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/1ce874ab1832a53e852570bb006dfaf6/f9402cd9657d7cd585256e3e006d69c9!OpenDocument
http://domino.un.org/unispal.NSF/3822b5e39951876a85256b6e0058a478/660fbef5501df87e85256dbe00514c73!OpenDocument&Click;=

The 1976 Security Council peace proposal has been often renewed since in various peace proposals. Thus, for over 30 years, an international consensus has backed the “two-state” settlement (i.e., the full-withdrawal and full-recognition formula):

- The Saudi peace plan, adopted by the Arab League in March 2002, is similar to the Saudi proposal of 1981, the 1976 and 1980 UN resolutions, and many others since 1967. Currently, Israel wants everything it can get from the Saudi proposal in exchange for—Nothing. Israel is unwilling to do the three things asked from it. Israel’s greedy win-lose negotiating position blocks peace.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/2002/0325saudi.htm

- The UN General Assembly overwhelming passed similar resolutions year after year but is always opposed by the U.S. and Israel (and less than a handful of allies).

- The UN Security Council also passed resolutions 298, 338, 262, 267, 446 and 465, each stating substantially the same thing: Israel must vacate all their illegal settlements and provide “land for peace” for the Palestinians. Israel has defied every one of these resolutions. The US has vetoed dozens of others.

In February 1976, Sen. Adlai Stevenson (D-IL) reported after a trip to the Middle East that PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat and the leaders of Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon and Iran had told him they were willing to recognize Israel’s right to exist if Israel complied with U.N. 242 by withdrawing from the occupied territories. “Those preconditions are unacceptable to Israel,” Stevenson said.

In 1976, the US and the Soviet Union called for an UN-sponsored Middle East conference for a settlement guaranteeing the security of Israel’s borders and the “legitimate rights” of the Palestinian people. The PLO had welcomed this proposal. The Carter administration was forced to drop the plan, after angry protests by the Israeli government and American Jewish organizations.

Later in 1976, the Arabs tried again. The U.S. and Israel alone voted against an Egyptian proposal to convene a conference on the Middle East by 1977.

In Dec. 1976 The New York Times published an op-ed column by Rabbi Arthur Waskow, who, with four other American Jewish leaders, had met the PLO. “The Palestinians began the conversation,” Waskow wrote, “by stating that the PLO is prepared to accept the existence of two sovereign states on the territory of Palestine, a Palestinian state and a Jewish state.”

Report this

By Federer, March 18, 2007 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yesterday Israel vowed to boycott the new Palestinian unity government and ruled out peace talks with them, claiming to limit contacts only to the “humanitarian issues” (which Israel created in the first place). Meanwhile, Russia—and to a lesser extent France and Britain—is more positive about the new unity government. Norway recognized the new Palestinian government just minutes after it was approved, and said it would normalize relations with the Hamas-Fatah coalition.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/17/europe/EU-GEN-Norway-Palestinians.php
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2362887.ece

—————————————-

ISRAEL’S REJECTION OF PEACE (PART 1)

Israel is accountable for the consequences of its continued rejection of peace with the Palestinians since the mid-1970s at least, if not since 1967.

It is a myth that Israel wanted peace with the Palestinians only to face repeated rejection from them. The Palestinian leaders since the mid-1970s—and Arab states since the late 1960s (e.g., King Hussein in 1969)—repeatedly proposed comprehensive peace settlements based on the exchange of land for peace, only to have Israel reject or ignore them. Read the first link for “Will Israel Turn Down Yet Another Arab Peace Proposal?”
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/april2002/0204008.html
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/040284/840402002.html
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/2002/0325saudi.htm

A basic framework for peace between Israelis and Palestinians has existed since 1967.  U.N. Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 are binding on Israel as a foreign power that is occupying Palestine territory. Read both resolutions: Its key commitments are: The inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war and the need to work for a just and lasting peace in which every state in the area can live in security, and the withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict; the termination of all claims or states of belligerency and respect for and acknowledgment of the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of every state in the area and their right to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force; and achieving a just settlement of the refugee problem.
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/5ba47a5c6cef541b802563e000493b8c/7d35e1f729df491c85256ee700686136!OpenDocument
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/d744b47860e5c97e85256c40005d01d6/7fb7c26fcbe80a31852560c50065f878!OpenDocument

By 1973, Israel had already rejected several Arab offers of comprehensive peace based on UN resolution 242, which led to the 1973 Yom Kippur/Ramadan War. Israel has opposed multilateral peace negotiations since the UN first suggested the idea, and has insisted on negotiating with Arab governments one by one.

By late 1973, Yasser Arafat concluded there existed no military option to recover Palestine and that the Palestinian state can only be founded by compromise and political settlement with Israel. Arafat decided to make peace with Israel based on a two-state solution, UN resolution 242 and international law. (This incurred the wrath of rejectionist PLO factions, such as Abu Nidal, who were expelled or left the PLO and who even plotted to derail the persevering Arafat’s peace steps.) Arafat started secretly meeting with Israeli peace activists such as Uri Avnery, even though the rejectionist Israeli government was unwilling to meet with him until the early 1990s. By the mid-1970s the PLO in fact acknowledged Israel’s right to exist in peace, if it withdraws from all Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) taken in 1967. In other words, over 30 years ago, Arafat was willing to make a historic compromise—the indigenous Palestinian people would settle for just 22% of their ancestral land and give up 78% to a population mostly created by uninvited foreign colonization.

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 17, 2007 at 9:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Notice how Federer and Robert BOTH avoid addressing my 3 questions and still spout repeatedly the same propaganda.  Even my pal Tony dodges them.

Gentlemen: Until you address those 3 questions, your polemics and 10,000 web references are just chaff, just spam clogging the web as you rant and rave.

I’ll make them REALLY simple:

1) Why are Israel’s Arab neighbors not guilty of EXACTLY the crimes you accuse Israel of, despite clear solid evidence they are doing just that?  Why is it only a crime when Israel does it but not when, say Syria or Saudi Arabia does it? Does it hurt the victim less when he’s victimized by his own people rather than another?

2) Why do the other Arab states and Iran do everything possible to disrupt VIOLENTLY the only two Arab democratic and multi religious states: Lebanon and The Palestinian Authority?

3) Why is Israel alone among all nations of the world required to cede occupied territories back to nations with which it is still at war, a war declared by those other nations?

When you can answer all 3 with rational convincing arguments, then your polemics will be worth considering.  Until then, they are just static. And you are nothing but anti-Semites seeking to re-instate Hitler’s Final Solution.  As if that would solve ANYTHING in the Middle East.

Report this

By Righty, March 17, 2007 at 7:17 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:

Like I thought. You never replied to my comment#58340.
You know that you cannot present any polls of whether Arabs would accept Jews as equals in a one democratic state solution. There are also no polls that you can present about any of the other questions I asked you in comment#58340.
That is because they would all show a total intolerance of Jews living as equals in their countries.
Again, you are pro-Arab and that is the bottom line.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 17, 2007 at 5:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #58833 by Peter on 3/15 at 1:49 pm

Tony:
You just don’t get it, Jews are a people not a religion. The state of Israel is a secular state and not a relgious state.
Get your facts straight.
Israel is probably more of a democracy than the United States. Parliamentary type governments are actually much more democratic than the U.S. 2 party system. The U.S. is really 1 party away from becoming a totalitarian government.
The state of Israel only discriminates against Muslim Arabs because they are using deadly force against their civilian population. If they did not there would be no problem.
This of course is legitimate self defense.
The Arabs must learn that such violence will not achieve what they want.
************************************************
Peter,

When did I ever say I thought Israel was a religious state? Quite the contrary; Zionism, the project of a Jewish state, is indeed totally secular. Remember the famous Tom Leher song about The Bomb with the verse that ends,

So Israel’s getting tense
Wants one in self-defense
The Lord’s our shepherd says the Psalm
But just in case, we better get a Bomb!

Zionists are essentially Jews who lost faith in their religion and substituted the idea of a Jewish national state for it. You are quite right, Israel is indeed essentially secular. It is also essentially racist and anti-democratic. The whole thing is a 19th century colonial anachronism, in that way also much like South Africa. Come, don’t be afraid, join the rest of the advanced democracies here in the twenty-first century. Sit down with the Palestinians and write with them a modern constititution where the prohibition of discrimination on the basis of race or religion is the most fundamental principle. Now you say there are no such Palestinians. I say there are, and I tell them that what they need to do is to get solidly behind a leadership committed to democracy and peaceful struggle for equality. I have told them that the only powerful weapon they have is world opinion. I am hoping they will soon come to see the truth of this. You yourself said that if the Palestinians were not trying to kill you, there would be no problem. Would you negotiate with such a leadership as South Africa did with Mandela?

The idea of a two-state solution is practically a bad joke at this point. Israel is already in the last stages of digesting Palestine. There is not going to be any Palestinian state. The only question is whether the Palestinians can hang on and manage to become Israeli citizens or whether they will be ethnically cleansed out of the area altogether.

Report this

By Federer, March 17, 2007 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Video letter to Israelis from Arabs who want peace.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HzH6YWDck4

Video: Israeli Soldiers Going In For The Kill: A 13-Year Old Palestinian School Girl Is About To Die. A tape shows the girl was identified as a “a little girl” who looked “scared to death.” Yet an Israeli military court acquitted the army captain who fired at least 17 bullets into Iman al-Hams. The girl’s father said: “They did not charge him with Iman’s murder, only with small offences, and now they say he is innocent of those even though he shot my daughter so many times. This was the cold-blooded murder of a girl. The soldier murdered her once and the court has murdered her again. What is the message? They are telling their soldiers to kill Palestinian children.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7363.htm
http://www.pchrgaza.ps/files/PressR/English/2005/135-2005.htm

Chris Hedges, Pulitzer-winning journalist, gives eye-witness testimony of Israeli soldiers murdering Palestinian children at a Gaza refugee camp: “It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker.” “Come on, dogs,” the voice booms in Arabic. “Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!” “I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: “Son of a bitch!” “Son of a whore!” “Your mother’s cunt!” “The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.” “A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children’s slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.” “Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered—death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo—but I HAVE NEVER BEFORE WATCHED SOLDIERS ENTICE CHILDREN LIKE MICE INTO A TRAP AND MURDER THEM FOR SPORT.”
http://www.adc.org/index.php?id=293&no_cache=1&sword;_list[]=suicide&sword;_list[]=bombings

- B’Tselem (Israeli human rights organization) has proof that the Israeli military covers up its murders of innocent Palestinian children, including an 11-year old Palestinian boy just playing soccer.
http://www.btselem.org/Download/200111_Whitewash_Eng.pdf
http://www.btselem.org/English/Press_Releases/20011113.asp

- Almost 900 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 2000.
http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/RememberTheseChildren2006.pdf
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children-articles.html

- There is a disturbing pattern of a high number of young Palestinians shot in the head, neck, and chest, indicating that trigger-happy Israeli soldiers have been specifically targeting children.
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=317&CategoryId=3 
http://www.btselem.org/Download/200203_Trigger_Happy_Eng.pdf
http://www.jerusalemites.org/articles/english/oct2004/19.htm
http://www.dci-pal.org/english/display.cfm?DocId=287&CategoryId=2

Report this

By Federer, March 17, 2007 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Sorry guys, been busy. But thinking: What creates and drives immorality in people? What drives some to look the other way in one immoral situation, but not others? What drives others to support and rationalize immoral situations? What drives some to cheerlead the immorality? Or resort to desperate means to suppress the truth? Is the reason plain ignorance? Is it tribalism and parochialism? Is it racism against an inferior victim? Is it the bully wanting to dominate a weak victim? Is it greed to keep the immorally-obtained gains? Or all of the above and more?

No need to understand why Righty on 3/11 at 7:19 pm probably posed as Peter on 3/11 at 7:51 pm, spewing similar bile within 32 minutes of each other on a fully-moderated and delayed discussion. Did Righty also pose as Charles on 3/13 at 6:09 am, and as others? The “Zionist attack pack” may be zealous but a wee bit smaller than we are led to believe and light on creative talent.

But Righty’s trolling does not compare to Israel’s crimes against the innocent victims it illegally occupies.

Not surprisingly, Israelis have been strip searching and abusing young Palestinian girls and others regularly for decades. Would any self-respecting people desire to recognize an abusive occupying state engaged in the humiliation, child abuse and/or harassment of their women, girls, boys at checkpoints, borders, airports?
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/about_us/easiesttargets.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/weir03152007.html 

The Palestinians have been involuntarily imprisoned in Israel’s pressure cooker—its pogrom of ethnic cleansing, brutality and occupation—for almost 60 years. “An historian and two foreign journalists have reported the truth about Gaza. All three are Israelis. They are frequently called traitors. The historian Ilan Pappe has documented that “the genocidal policy [in Gaza] is not formulated in a vacuum” but part of Zionism’s deliberate, historic ethnic cleansing. Gideon Levy and Amira Hass are reporters on the Israeli newspaper Ha’aretz. In November, Levy described how the people of Gaza were beginning to starve to death … “there are thousands of wounded, disabled and shell-shocked people unable to receive any treatment… the shadows of human beings roam the ruin… they only know the [Israeli army] will return and what this will mean for them: more imprisonment in their homes for weeks, more death and destruction in monstrous proportions.” Amira Hass, who has lived in Gaza, describes it as a prison that shames her people. She recalls how her mother, Hannah, was being marched from a cattle-train to the Nazi concentration camp at Bergen-Belsen on a summer’s day in 1944. “[She] saw these German women looking at the prisoners, just looking,” she wrote. “This image became very formative in my upbringing, this despicable ‘looking from the side’.” “
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=423

Israel’s predatory policies harm not just Palestine’s Arab Muslims but also its Christians—including descendents of the Holy Land’s original Christians. The City Council of Bethlehem: “we find it our duty to clarify that the sole reason behind the emigration of Palestinians whether Christians or Moslems, though the Christians emigration is more apparent due to their relatively slight number, is the Israeli aggression.”
http://www.bethlehem-city.org/news/BM-Xmas Message.htm
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/christians.suffer.with.muslims.says.gaza.priest/8973.htm
http://www.j-diocese.com/DiocesanNews/view.asp?selected=234#slbl234 http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL0264864120070312
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3373013,00.html 
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUKL0952044720070312 
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/newweb/christmasshot.htm
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/November2005/0511064.html
http://www.merip.org/newspaperopeds/HNstarvingin_Bethlehem.html
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15089.htm

Report this

By Robert, March 17, 2007 at 12:18 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Humiliation and Child Abuse at Israeli Checkpoints”

“STRIP-SEARCHING CHILDREN”


By ALISON WEIR

MARCH 15, 2007


“Israeli officials have been regularly strip-searching children for decades, some of them American citizens.

While organizations that focus on Israel-Palestine have long been aware that Israeli border officials regularly strip search men and women, If Americans Knew appears to be the first organization that has specifically investigated the policy of strip searching women. In the course of its investigation, If Americans Knew was astonished to learn that Israeli officials have also been strip searching young girls as young as seven and below.

According to interviews with women in the United States, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli border officials periodically force Christian and Muslim females of all ages to remove their clothing and submit to searches. In some cases the children are then “felt” by Israeli officials.

Sometimes mothers and children are strip-searched together, at other times little girls are taken from their parents and strip-searched alone. Women are required to remove sanitary napkins, sometimes with small daughters at their side. Sometimes women are strip-searched in the presence of their young sons.

All report deep feelings of humiliations. many describe weeping at the degradation they felt.”


—————————————————————————

If the American people really knew what the Israeli IDF & its brutal/racist zionist policies against the Palestinian people, most of Israel’s Nazi methods against Palestinian civilians would NOT be practiced. The American people would not just be astonished, they would be OUTRAGED. Most Americans don’t see or know about Israel’s zionist’s methods. Most of our U.S. mainstream News Medias are controlled by zionists; the American people just don’t get a chance to see Israel’s brutal occupation on CNN, FOX News, MSNBC, NBC, CBS, ABC…and others. NO ONE DARES TO SHOW & REPORT THE TRUTH. It would be career suicide to that particular reporter.

THE TRUTH IS ON THE SIDE OF THE OPPRESSED !

Click on for the rest of the story that is NOT on the mainstream News Medias.

http://www.counterpunch.org/weir03152007.html

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 15, 2007 at 6:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Robert,
Until you can satisfactorily address my 3 questions (which TruthDig MAY print post sometime this month) then and only then will you be able to claim Israel is a “racist” nation.  Since she’s surrounded by BLATANTLY racist nations you are a hypocrit.

Actually, you are an anti-semite, clearly. (that means racist and bigot).

Report this

By Peter, March 15, 2007 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony:
You just don’t get it, Jews are a people not a religion. The state of Israel is a secular state and not a relgious state.
Get your facts straight.
Israel is probably more of a democracy than the United States. Parliamentary type governments are actually much more democratic than the U.S. 2 party system. The U.S. is really 1 party away from becoming a totalitarian government.
The state of Israel only discriminates against Muslim Arabs because they are using deadly force against their civilian population. If they did not there would be no problem.
This of course is legitimate self defense.
The Arabs must learn that such violence will not achieve what they want.

Report this

By Robert, March 14, 2007 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony, Federer…it looks like the zionists fanatic zealot’s pack are attempting to spew all forms of attacks on the TRUTH. They can’t seem to stomac any TRUTH about zionism / Israeli brutal & racist policies against the unarmed Palestinian people.

The zionists attack pack are going for your jugular arteries & hoping to sniff out your last breath & word for any support for the TRUTH, humanity, equal rights, democracy & freedom for all people (Israeli & Palestinian) of this tragic conflict.

Israel is NOT a democracy for Christian & Moslem Palestinians. Israel has NO constitution. It makes laws that are totally favorable for Jews while putting the Christian & Moslem Israeli citizens at a great disadvantage.

A Jew can emigrate to Israel & become a citizen if ONLY one (1) of his 4 grandparents is/was Jewish. Yet, a Christian or Moslem Palestinian who was born there cannot emigrate to East Jerusalem, West Bank & the rest of Palestine.

These fanatic zionist zealots attack pack are just purely full of hate & racism. They are for JEWS ONLY…NO other people!

All people involved in this Israeli/Palestinian conflict must have “Equal Rights” under a constitution, fair established laws to ALL the people. NOT JUST FOR JEWS ONLY!

ZIONISM IS PURE RACISM. IT IS WRONG. EQUAL RIGHTS, JUSTICE & THE RULE OF LAW FOR ALL PEOPLE ARE THE FOUNDATIONS TO RESOLVE THIS CONFLICT.

TOO MANY INNOCENT HUMAN LIVES HAVE BEEN LOST ON BOTH SIDES OF THIS CONFLICT. HOW MANY MORE DEAD CHILDREN CAN THE PEOPLE OF TRUTH, COMPASSION & HUMANITY STOMAC?

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 14, 2007 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony:
You continue to ignore 3 points (in no particular order)
1) In every Arab state (with the exception of Lebanon—more on that) you cannot be a practicing Jew or Christian without being relegated to second-class citizen-ship, frequently with significant loss of rights codified in law—if you are even ALLOWED to be a citizen. In many of them you must obey Islamic scriptural law ANYWAY. Non-Arabs as well can rarely be citizens.  This is EXACTLY what you condemn Israel for, and only Israel.  Why is it only true for Israel and not for everyone else?

2)Israel is a democracy.  Maybe flawed, maybe in need of BIG changes, but still a real democracy were opposing groups exchange power peacefully.  Only two Arab states are anything close to being as democratic as Israel: The Palestinian Authority and Lebanon.  Lebanon ALONE allows non-Moslems as full citizens.  The Palestinians somewhat grudgingly allow it (Hanan Ashrari being the most notable). Neither compares to Israel in fairness of their elections, but MOST IMPORTANTLY:
Syria and Iran DELIBERATELY, with the tacit approval of Saudi Arabia, VIOLENTLY disrupt their democracies and attempt to destroy them.  EVERY action of theirs indicates they WILL NOT TOLERATE A DEMOCRATIC ISRAEL IF IT IS DOMINATED BY MOSLEMS!

Yet you consistently and persistently refuse to address this point in your relentless call for a single-state solution.  While I don’t believe it can survive internally, EXTERNAL forces will be DAMNED IN HELL BEFORE THEY LET A SUCCESSFUL ARAB/MOSLEM RUN DEMOCRACY SURVIVE!

3) Israel is STILL at war with Syria,Jordan and other states.  NEVER is a nation obligated to return occupied land while a state of war exists.  Therefore Syria, Jordan, et al (including the Palestinians) have NO right to the occupied land UNTIL they make a REAL peace with Israel. As the PRIME example, Egypt did it and got back the Sinai.  Israel is under NO obligation under international law to surrender occupied territory while a state of war exists with its (former) owner.

I do not know why all you lovers of the Arab dictatorships cannot see this.  WHEN SYRIA MAKES PEACE WITH ISRAEL IT WILL HAVE A RIGHT TO MAKE A CLAIM TO GET THE GOLAN BACK—NOT WHILE SYRIA IS STILL AT WAR WITH ISRAEL.

Those are MY three points and NOT ONE OF YOU has addressed them.  You’ve ignored and dismissed them, but NOT disproved them.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 14, 2007 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

A few weeks ago I said I would get behind the first presidential candidate of any party who said one kind word about the Palestinians. Well, check out the following N.Y. Times article, “Clinton and Obama court Jewish vote”, where it says:

“Several Jewish conference goers said they were concerned by Mr. Obama’s remark Sunday in Iowa where, in a reference to the Middle East, he said, “Nobody is suffering more than the Palestinian people.”

http://select.nytimes.com/mem/tnt.html?emc=tnt&tntget=2007/03/14/us/14aipac.html&tntemail0=y

ITS OBAMAMAINIA FOR ME, FOLKS!!!!!!

Yes, concern for the Palestinians is anathema to Zionists, isn’t it? I don’t think Obama is going to get very far courting the Zionist vote. He is just too suspiciously black, and besides, he might possess some smattering of integrity. But what I hope he realizes is that there is a huge anti-Zionist (not anti-Semitic but anti-Israel) wave building among the American people, and that he can get more votes by coming out against Israeli apartheid and for Palestinian human rights than by courting the Zionists. With the abandonment of Zionism by world Jewry, even many American Jews will join him. 

Tony

Report this

By Charles, March 14, 2007 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony Wicher:
Your one state is dead in the water.
As you see it has no support because it is not workable. Both sides wish a 2 state solution and that is the best you can hope for.
So now join in and get the Arab Nations to make peace with Israel and stop the terrorism being promoted in those countries against Israel & the West.
Then Israel will agree to allow the Arab Palestinians to form a democratic country of their own. This new state will then be required to live side by side in peace with Israel and not harbor terrorists or support terrorism against Israel ever again.

Report this

By Righty, March 14, 2007 at 3:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony Wicher:

Just like you. You totally ignore what I said about Israel being a democracy just like any other nationalistic democracy in this world. It is only Jewish nationalism that you cannot stomach.
Again, you only attack Jews for wanting their own country and none other.
Screw You

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 14, 2007 at 2:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #58268 by Righty on 3/13 at 4:42 am

Everybody’s got immigration problems. You are theirs and they are yours. People who just want a decent life are caught in the middle. I wonder how many of those people there really are on both sides? Israel is no way a democracy. Anybody who is not deemed “Jewish” by the authorities is a second-class citizen. No way you can deny this Jim Crow-like situation. No self-respecting person who is not Jewish wants to be a “citizen” of a Jewish state. There is currently a movement in Israel headed by Avigdor Lieberman to transfer all Arab “citizens” out of Israel. It is only logical given the basic premise of Zionism.

The most hopeful sign I have seen lately is that Jews all over the world are renouncing Zionism in droves, according to the following article by Yakov Rabkin. I sure hope it’s true, because Zionism is making anti-Semitism grow more all the time. 

Gap among Jews widens on question of Zionism
By Yakov M. Rabkin
Originally published March 8, 2007

A profound division has developed between Zionist
advocates of Israel and Jews, secular and religious, who reject or question Zionism and actions taken by the state of Israel. Public debate about Israel’s place in Jewish
continuity has become open and candid.

Many Jews try to come to terms with the contradictionsbetween the Judaism they profess to adhere to and the Zionist ideology that has taken hold of them. This coincides with serious concerns expressed across Israel’s political and religious spectrum about the future of Israel.

Quite a few Jews now publicly ask whether the
chronically besieged ethnic nation-state in the Middle East is “good for the Jews.” Many continue to be concerned that militant Zionism destroys Jewish moral values and endangers Jews in Israel and elsewhere.

This debate has entered pop culture as well: The
recent film Munich by Steven Spielberg sharply focuses on the moral cost of Israel’s chronic reliance on force.

The Israel lobby in the United States, aligned withthe nationalist right in Israel, viciously attacked the Jewish director and his film even before it was released. It also lashed out at several books published over the past few years -Prophets Outcast, Wrestling With Zion, The Question of Zion, The Myths of Zionism - all authored by Jews who are concerned
about the same essential conflict between Zionism and Jewish values.

A few weeks ago, the Israel lobby (through its
constituent American Jewish Committee) issued a report alleging that Jews who criticize Israel endanger its “right to exist” and foment anti-Semitism. This provoked a number of prominent Jews in Britain, Canada and the United States to speak out, moving candid debate about Israel into mainstream, even conservative, publications. In January, the eminently
pro-establishment Economist published a survey of “the state of the Jews” and an editorial that called on rank-and-file Diaspora Jews to move away from the “my country, right or wrong” attitude adopted by many Jewish organizations.

Making a stand for Jewish emancipation from the state of Israel and its policies has bridged some old divides and created new ones. Thus, an ultra-Orthodox critic of Israel, usually antagonistic to Reform Judaism, commended a Reform rabbi for saying that “when Israel’s Jewish supporters abroad don’t speak
out against disastrous policies that neither guarantee safety for her citizens nor produce the right climate in which to try and reach a just peace with the Palestinians ... they are betraying millennial Jewish values and acting against Israel’s own long-term interests.”

The rest of the article may be found at

http://canadianobserver.wordpress.com/

Report this

By Righty, March 13, 2007 at 11:12 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
Again you continue with your self serving polls.
Show me a poll in which Arabs were asked if they want to live together with Jews as equals?
That Jews should be allowed to fully practice their religion without Islamic restriction?
That Jews should be allowed to pray on the Temple Mount?
That Jews should have equal rights in a government that would be formed in a multi-cultural democratic state?
That the Arab Palestinians want a democratic multi-cultural country?
Show me a poll on these questions.
You will never be able to. Do you know why? Because you and your Arab buddies would never want such a poll to be released.
You would probably find that 99.999% of them do not want to allow Jews any of these rights or want a democratic multi-cultural state.
Again, you are a propaganda minister for the Arab league, United Nations and World Court. All of which are anti-Israel and United States.
They have no legitimacy and need to be abolished.
The money saved on these institutions per year could be used to feed the poor of the world for the next 100 years.
Present reliable & objective polls and prove me wrong! I will not be foolish enough to hold my breath because I am sure you will not. They just do not exist Federer and you know it.

Report this

By Charles, March 13, 2007 at 7:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:

There you go again.
You state some unknown self serving poll of 10 million Arab Palestinians and claim it to be fact. You are a joke pal.
You have an answer for everything and always anti-Israel.
Again, you are a propaganda minister of lies and not to be given any legitimacy.

Report this

By Righty, March 13, 2007 at 5:42 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony:

Democracy is the right of citizens of a country to freely elect those who govern them. Israel does indeed have this form of government.
The Palestinian Arabs are not citizens of Israel and do not wish to be. They therefore do not have the right to vote or decide who governs Israeli citizens.
You just cannot understand that. Every country, including the United States, determines who can be a citizen and live in their country.
Israel allows all races of people to live in Israel. However, they retain the right to decide how much immigration to allow in order to preserve the Jewish nature of their country.
Each country has their own nationalistic goals and Israel is no different.
You just don’t like Israel preserving a Jewish nationalism because you are anti-Jewish. There can be no other reason. To be fair you must require that all nation states give up their histories as a people and adopt those of the people who wish to immigrate from other countries. That is ridiculus and not done by any nation.
Again, Israel is a democracy which has as its foundation a Jewish nationalism. This is no different than any other democracy in the world.
Do not forget, being a Jew is not a religious thing. The Jews have always considered themselves as a people and not a religion. Those are the facts Tony.

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 13, 2007 at 4:22 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#

Comment #58196 by Sid on 3/12 at 4:29 pm

Yes Federer I agree with Peter’s comment #58036. Since Israel is still in a technical state of war with Syria, and with terrorist groups controlling Lebanon, West Bank & Gaza, they have every right to hold the lands seized during the 1967&73; wars in which the Arabs tried to destroy Israel.
Until they officially sign peace treaties with Israel to renounce their desire to destroy her, they are not entitled to these captured lands back.
Israel therefore is still in a state of war and has not committed any violations of international law.
This is indeed the facts. The Israeli’s have given back all captured Egyptian land due to the peace treaty signed between them.
When the Arab nations agree to peace with Israel then Israel will give back those lands also.

———————————————————

No, Sid, no.  Israel is a special case. The rules of International Law, the right of self-determination and self-defense don’t belong to Israel, only to Palestinians and the Arab states.

Jews alone of all peoples aren’t entitled to protection under International Law. Israel alone of all nations isn’t even entitled to the rights under International Law that are given to the Taliban in Afghanistan, to North Korea, to Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe or to the genocidal Sudan.

Didn’t you know that? Just ask Federer—he’ll “prove” it for you.  Next he’ll “prove” that the Holocaust was justified because “everybody” knows that all Jews are trouble-makers.  And Big Al and Esther and Fadel with him.

Report this

By Amy Goodmann, March 13, 2007 at 2:54 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It would be nice to live in an ultruistic world.
  However one must look at reality and be a pragmatic.
  Gaza was given back to the palestinians.
  Did that give any respite in peace ?
  No it has escalated events.
  Now they are trying to kidnap the jews via tunnels, shooting rockets into Israel to kill as many jews as possible all the while demanding more and insisting that past agreements need not be honoured rather than showing faith.
Gaza is being turned , with all of the cash possible rather than for food , into a bastion.
Is this a good or reassuring thing ?

Report this

By Sid, March 12, 2007 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Yes Federer I agree with Peter’s comment #58036. Since Israel is still in a technical state of war with Syria, and with terrorist groups controlling Lebanon, West Bank & Gaza, they have every right to hold the lands seized during the 1967&73; wars in which the Arabs tried to destroy Israel.
Until they officially sign peace treaties with Israel to renounce their desire to destroy her, they are not entitled to these captured lands back.
Israel therefore is still in a state of war and has not committed any violations of international law.
This is indeed the facts. The Israeli’s have given back all captured Egyptian land due to the peace treaty signed between them.
When the Arab nations agree to peace with Israel then Israel will give back those lands also.

Report this

By Federer, March 11, 2007 at 11:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony: On Palestinian attitudes and strategy (Part 2):

The pro-Israel posters tend to generalize that the Palestinians will always use armed struggle (or terrorism, etc.) to get 100% of their land back, etc. Hearing the views of a few frustrated or militant Palestinians—out of 10 million—does not provide enough data to generalize with confidence. Just as it is ridiculous as making generalizations about Jews after reading Israel’s Ynet article on “Genrikh Yagoda” being the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Opinion polls in Occupied Palestinian Territories conducted by Near East Consulting:

- Indicate that the overwhelming majority of occupied Palestinians consistently support a peace settlement with Israel, even though the majority felt they do not have a sincere peace partner in Israel. History shows that Zionists/Israel have been acting mostly in bad faith for over 90 years.

- Interestingly, when asked separate poll questions, the overwhelming majority support both (a) the two-state solution according to the 1967 borders as well as (b) the one-state solution in historic Palestine where Muslims, Christians and Jews have equal rights and responsibilities. One possible reason is that the poll question did not force respondents to choose between two alternatives (or maybe they see a as a necessary first step to b ).

- The size of the peace majority (see neareastconsulting links) appears to change depending on how badly Israel was slaughtering the Palestinians at the time (see mepc link). E.g., during the darkest days of Israel’s military operations in the OPT, in August 2007, support for a peace settlement with Israel ‘plunged’ to 50%, down from the year’s high of 80%.  This shows the strong interest in peace of the majority of Palestinians (would the majority of Americans or Israelis support peace with any country occupying, attacking and killing their people?).
http://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/dialogue/p02/
http://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/peace/results.php
http://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/ppp/results.php
http://www.mepc.org/resources_counts/CS2006.asp

I believe most other polls trend that the majority of Palestinians and Israelis want their own state. Perhaps you can provide data on recent Jewish Israeli polls on a peace settlement, two-state solution or one-state solution (as I can’t find the data right now).

But what I did find contradicts Righty’s misinformation that “Israel on the other hand is willing to compromise… the Arabs don’t. That is the difference between the sides.” Israeli opinion polls have shown that about 60% support “transferring” (i.e., ethnic cleansing) the Palestinian citizens of Israel out of their Jewish state (e.g., Haaretz, 31.12.03) and senior government ministers like Avigdor Lieberman advocate this racist idea quite openly. Another poll showed that 68% of Jews would refuse to live in same building as a Palestinian-Israeli citizen (Ha’aretz, 22.03.06). 40% believed “the state needs to support the emigration of Arab citizens.”

You are right to say that violent resistance is just what the Zionists want because they can exploit it for PR and as a pretext for further oppression. But Israel and Israel lobbies have developed counter-measures to any approach–legal, violent, non-violent, etc.—the Palestinians might use to seek justice. It’s a no-win game, unless the victims surrender. Yet the Palestinians have an international legal right to take whatever means necessary to (a) end an illegal colonial and apartheid occupation as well as possibly to (b) recover the 21.47% of Palestine conquered and annexed since 1948 (in violation of the international law principle of the inadmissibility of acquiring land from conquest). By ignoring or rejecting a peace settlement with their Palestinian victims, Israel has voluntarily left the door open for Palestinians to take these actions.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 11, 2007 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #57970 by Charles on 3/11 at 12:38 pm

I do indeed push for all those Arab countries to become multicultural democracies. It is however hypocritical of Zionists to push for this, since Israel is not one itself, being as it is an avowedly “Jewish state”.

Report this

By Peter, March 11, 2007 at 8:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
Bottom line you are indeed a propaganda expert hired to trash Israel.
No doubt about it. Your one sided attacks are very evident.
According to you Israel has no legitimate right to hold questionable arab lands for defensive purposes.
Federer, there is not a country in this world who has given back strategic lands that were captured from an enemy during a war until those enemies signed treaties that promised to end all fighting and live in peace.
The Arab nations have not done this. Therefore Israel is not in violation of any law and has the legitimate right to defend herself against that enemy who seeks to destroy her. In this case the Arab Muslims are that enemy and their refusal to allow Israel to exist in peace is the reason they still have the right to hold those lands for defensive military reasons. That is the “REAL” truth you forked tongue “LYING SCUM” !

Report this

By Righty, March 11, 2007 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:

Your posts are nothing but United Nations, World Court and Arab Muslim propaganda lies.
None of the 3 above have any legitamacy.
They are all corrupt Jew hating and American hating entities.
You just love to give all those pro Arab links.
You think these links you post make your statements fact. You are a true propaganda minister of hate against the Jews who live in Israel. You never address any Arab Muslim faults. You would think that they are angels and the Jews are the devil incarnate.
Your posts are so one sided against Israel that it is proof of your anti-Jewish position.
You write like a machine and your posts are probably part of some arab sponsored computer program that was set up to discredit the Jewish state of Israel for even existing.
I believe that you are just some Jew hating troll who is being paid to go on the internet and post all the anti-Israel crap you can shove on the many Jew hating forums around the world.
The Jews are the only people in this world who have been able to get back their homeland after nearly 2,000 years of exile. I suggest that the Jews in fact have more right to their country than any other in this entire world.
Why ?  Because the world has oppressed the Jewish people more than any other people in this world.
It is now the Jewish people who are owed for this suffering. Never did the world fully recompense the Jews for the horrors they suffered. The state of Israel is the justice they sought and it is that which they will continue to keep.
Bye Federer, your kind makes me sick and it is hoped that you suffer the same hate and misery that your kind has done, and planned to do, to the Jewish people throughout history.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 11, 2007 at 7:45 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #57980 by Sid on 3/11 at 1:04 pm

Just because Arab nationalism is not democracy does not mean that Zionism is. It’s just two forms of hate and violence feeding off each other. But Israel’s claim to be a democracy makes it the most hypocritical.

Report this

By Miriam, March 11, 2007 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“They wonder what good this alliance is doing us. Why should we make the Arabs angry by supporting Israel? The Arabs have the oil we need, not Israel. What’s the point? It’s not anti-Semitic to ask that either. “

I think it’s this sort of thinking that does make Israelis so paranoid because they know that the powers that be would drop them like a hat if they get in the way of the big oil interests. That’s why they have pursued the mistaken and incredibly self-destructive strategy of positing Islam as our next ‘big enemy’ because they were afraid of becoming irrelevant after the fall of Communism. That’s not to say that there is not a very real problem with Islamic radicalism. There is. Just as there is, say, with Jewish radicalism or Christian radicalism .... I just don’t see how trying to stoke up a civilizational war is going to help because, as we are seeing, there is going to be a massive backlash and we all know who *always* gets the blame and gets kicked out. Then again, I’m thinking that maybe that’s probably the plan anyway ....which is DEPRESSING. Israel has been set up for war from the get-go.Perpetual war means perpetual arms sales. Personally, I do think Israel should annex the territories and initiate a transfer process like that between India and Pakistan after their independence.  It would require a massive Marshall aid- like plan to help resettle the Palestinians in a just and fair manner.

Report this

By Federer, March 11, 2007 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hi Tony: Probably worse for ‘inhumane posters’ who cannot stomach humanity, truth and reason.

One State or Two? Palestinians and Israelis must be given the opportunity to collectively choose the desired solution (i.e., exercise their right to self-determination). However, given the power inequality between the two sides and US/Western support for Israel, it is improbable that a fair and just solution can be worked out between them. A relatively impartial arbitrator (e.g., the World Court) needs to (a) identify a set of alternative visions that include both peoples’ visions and facilitate voting, or (b) impose a solution on both parties adjudged to be fair and just, based on international law and precedents. Such arbitration must be free from external meddling.
http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann10082003.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/mazin06022005.html
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15383.htm
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=4100

On Palestinian attitudes and strategy (Part 1):

There are about 10 million or so Palestinians (4 million in OPT and 1.2 million in Israel). Within the different Palestinian communities—occupied and diaspora—there are a wide variety of opinions on how much of Palestine should be recovered/renounced as well as on the best strategies (armed vs. non-violent methods) to resist the colonial and apartheid occupation. Even Hamas leaders disagree sometimes. It’s similar to differences between Zionist Jewish factions in pre-1948 Palestine.

Btw, the Palestinians have been using nonviolent resistance (since 1918, before the first violence around 1921). E.g., when Mubarak Awad tried non-violent resistance, it was quickly neutralized by the Israelis. Non violent resistance requires a PR campaign that can impact world opinion, but the pro-Israel propaganda machine (unlike the apartheid South Africans) is able to counter Palestinian attempts.
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0412-06.htm
http://www.juancole.com/2004/11/levine-on-arafat-guest-editorial-death.html
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0531-06.htm

Between the mid-1970s and the 1990s, most Palestinians (through the work of Arafat, Abu Iyyad, etc.) grew to accept a two-state solution based on 22% of Palestine. By the mid 1970s, it was clear that recovering 100% of Palestine would be unrealistic because (a) all major countries in the world (even major Arab countries allied to the US) would continue to support the existence of Israel within its 1967 borders and (b) a military solution to recovering more of Palestine was not feasible (after Egypt/Syria gave it their best shot in 1973).

For some of the 10 million Palestinians, interest in armed struggle naturally grew since September 2000. That was when Israel launched a brutal war on the Palestinians (Israelis fired 1.2 million bullets over a few days at the initially-unarmed Palestinians), despite two years of Palestinian peace. Israeli violence got progressively worse, killing hundreds of Palestinians over the first few months. Some Palestinians felt that the only language Israel understood was violence—so the first suicide bombings began again in Israel six months later.
http://www.fmep.org/analysis/articles/more_than_million_bullets.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=437895&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y
http://www.counterpunch.org/kchristison1022.html
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v22/n24/said01_.html
http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/First_Intifada_Tables.asp

In addition, Palestinians were frustrated that any peace with Israel based on a two state solution has become impossible to achieve due to Israel’s deliberate actions since Oslo: dragging on fruitless one-sided negotiations, absorbing the best parts of the West Bank into Israel through creeping illegal settlement and annexation activities, continuing state terror and killings of about 4,500 Palestinians, etc.

Report this

By Sid, March 11, 2007 at 2:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony Wicher:

See you have given up with the Palestinian response to your suggestion of peaceful negotiations with Israel. You even promised them half of Israel and also their wealth and technology. What a nice guy you are Tony to give the Arab Muslims something they did not earn and would not have done on their own.
Anyway, even with all that they refused to listen to you and still want “all” of Israel.
Time to wake up Tony and see what Israel has been dealing with since 1948.  It will be very hard to even get a 2 state solution yet alone a one state solution.

Report this

By Charles, March 11, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony:

You finally admitted what the Palestinian people really want, all of Israel.
We have been telling you that all along. You have not been listening to facts Tony. It is Arab propaganda that you have been spewing all over this forum. Israel is not the bad guy, it is the Arab Muslim countries that are. They do not want peace with Israel but its total destruction.
I hope you will now push for Arab Muslim regimes to now become multi-cultural democracies. Once they do this there will be true peace in the Middle East.
The Palestinians Arabs are their own worse enemy not Israel.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 11, 2007 at 11:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #57848 by Righty on 3/10 at 4:47 pm

You want a Jewish state. They want an Arab state. The only compromise possible is multicultural democracy - a state that is neither Jewish nor Arab, where discrimination on the basis of ethnicity and religion is constitutionally prohibited. Neither you nor they are willing to make the democratic compromise; therefore war goes on. It will continue to go on until you are all dead or you come to your senses. That is the essence of the matter.

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 11, 2007 at 6:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer,
Where do you get the crap you dig up? Just because some white-supremacist or some Arab-nationalist puts garbage on the Web doesn’t make it fact.

What are you going to quote next? “The Protocols of The Elders of Zion”?  I gather it’s really popular over there despite being a crude forgery by the Czarist secret police.

Everything you are doing and posting is an attempt to justify another go at exterminating all the Jews in the world.  You attribute to Jews every evil of society…just as Hitler did.  And who turned out to be the true devil-incarnate? Hitler.

Do you REALLY think all the problems of the Arab world will vanish by exterminating the Jews?  They can’t even keep from killing each other.

Report this

By Charles, March 11, 2007 at 5:46 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Wicher:

Read your comment about hanging Bush & Cheney and that you would enjoy seeing it.
Now that is a truly sick statement.
You are an F-in bastard and you are the one who should be hung.
Is that how you react to people who have gotten rid of an Islamic mass murdering dictatorship, Saddam Hussein and his regime, and has tried to establish a democratic state instead?
Tony, I thought you were for getting rid of Islamic dictatorships and establishing multi-cultural democratic states? Well that is what the Bush/Cheney Administration is doing.
Tony, do you think that these Muslim dictatorships are going to change by you telling them over the internet? Or that the United Nations is going to tell them to do it? Or that the Europeans are going to tell them to do it? Or the Russians or Asians are going to tell them? Or destroying the Jewish democratic state of Israel is going to bring it about?
No Tony, only brute force is going to get those Islamic countries to abandon their dictitorial theocracies.
You are a real fool. I don’t know what world you are living in Tony but it is not one based on reality. Your views to create a one state solution to resolve the Israeli/Arab situation is also a result of your unrealistic view of the world around you.
I cannot believe the crap you are throwing at this forum. Only anti-Jewish and Anti-American bigots are in agreement with you.
Those same people would indeed love to see you piss & crap in your pants while they are hanging you for your multi-cultural democratic belief.
Think about that Tony?

Report this

By Righty, March 10, 2007 at 5:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

See Wicher, you said it yourself. The Palestinians want 100% of the land back and will used armed struggle to do it.
They want it all. That is what Israel has always known. That is why no compromise can be worked out with them.
Israel on the other hand is willing to compromise. The Jews do care about the children and future generations the Arabs don’t.
That is the difference between the sides.
You should now understand why no resolution has been reached with this type of Arab Muslim mentality.
They train their children to hate Jews & Christians and that anyone who is not a loyal Muslim is worthy of death. This is a very serious problem and the cycle of violence must end.
Democracy, freedom of religion & speech are the only hope for these Islamic countries.
Israel must remain a strong democracy in the region and must not become another Islamic run country. Your one state solution would exactly lead to just another dangerous Islamic regime.

Report this

By Federer, March 10, 2007 at 11:09 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mad: Zionist/Israeli actions in Palestine and against its neighbours since 1948 negatively impacted the relationship between Jews and Arabs living in the wider Middle East.

In Palestine, the “amity” between Arab Muslims/Christians and Jews progressively worsened after WWI. This was due to massive Zionist immigration—against Palestinian wishes—facilitated by British occupation rule. It was a consequence of the predatory strategies pursued by those Zionist leaders (more win-win and relationship oriented leaders might have achieved peace). Israel’s supporters often bring up the Arab-Jewish hostilities from 1920 to 1929, which killed a total of 315+ Arabs AND Jews (relatively few casualties compared to the Zionist/Israeli killings of Palestinians in 1948 or between 2000-2007; had the 1920s Palestinians employed a fraction of such Zionist/Israeli violence, that would have ended the Zionist project in Palestine). The pro-Israel story omits the preceding history: between 1918 to 1920, when the Palestinians discovered what the scheming Zionists and double-dealing British were doing behind their backs, the Arab Muslims and Christians took many non-violent steps to communicate their disapproval to the British and the Zionists. But their peaceful measures were ignored, frustrating the Palestinians. By the 1940s, the festering Jewish-Arab problems in Palestine began infecting the Middle East (as well, the growth of Arab nationalism complicated matters).

The biggest factor that impacted Arab attitudes was the 1948 Israeli-Arab hostilities—especially the Zionists’ systematic land conquests and ethnic cleansing of over 750,000 Palestinian Arabs, which began months before the four Arab armies arrived (see links). The Palestinian refugees fled to neighbouring Arab lands, bringing stories of Zionist Jewish terror against Arabs. Most Arabs outside Palestine did not distinguish between the mostly benign, indigenous Jews in their countries and Palestine’s Zionist Jews (mostly European immigrants with the ‘whiteman’s’ racist attitudes towards the ‘natives’) who had attacked the Palestinian Arabs. Consider the attitudes of many Americans towards the American Muslim minority immediately after 9/11. As well, small Zionist movements started growing in some Arab countries, some infiltrated by Israeli spies. (Btw, the Zionists also created Christian enemies , e.g., George Habash, the PFLP leader)
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=38
http://www.palestine-studies.org  (search for Ilan Pappe’s excellent “The 1948 Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine” Why does the Truthdig site blacklist this link? Links below and other sources prove its accuracy)
http://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851684670
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=100409
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/d442111e70e417e3802564740045a309!OpenDocument

General Arab attitudes were not the only factor after 1948. Israel also provoked Jews to leave their Arab homelands for Israel. As Iraqi Jew Naeim Giladi reveals: “Jews from Islamic lands did not emigrate willingly to Israel; that, to force them to leave, Jews killed Jews; and that, to buy time to confiscate ever more Arab lands, Jews on numerous occasions rejected genuine peace initiatives from their Arab neighbors.” Giladi says that the 1950-51 Iraqi bombings were “perpetrated by Zionist agents in order to cause fear amongst the Jews, and so promote their exodus to Israel.”  In 1954, Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israel to perform terrorist acts in Egypt against American and British facilities, but they were caught and prosecuted (Operation Suzannah or Lavon Affair). Israel’s actions then, as it does today, inconsiderately gave Jews around the Middle East a bad name and involuntarily associated them with Israel.
http://www.ameu.org/printer.asp?iid=36&aid=72
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=5495

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 9, 2007 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to A Jew, Righty, etc.

Who are “the Jews” or “the Arabs”? Who dares to define either, or claims to speak for them? What are these peculiar group identities, these so-called “peoples” that we are all supposed to be so impressed by? Just what relationship do they have to each individual human being? I can hardly understand these “concepts” any more except as racial stereotypes that have no currency among educated people except perhaps when watching Jon Stewart or “Borat”. You guys are just hopeless, I guess.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 9, 2007 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #57511 by Federer on 3/08 at 11:01 pm

Thanks, Federer. Hearing a fellow voice of reason is indeed comforting. The unconscionable abuse of non-citizens in the occupied territories must be stopped without regard to the shape of the final solution of the conflict, which is up to the people living there to work out. I just cannot stomach the inhumanity of many of the posters here. Unfortunately, when I talk to some Palestinians on the ground, all they are interested in is armed struggle to get their country back - that is, back the way it was a hundred years ago, before Zionism. I tell them they have to go forward to democracy instead. I tell them they can’t have a hundred percent of their own country as it was back again, but through democratic struggle they can get fifty percent of the country as it is now back, and that means that they are entitled to half of everything the Zionists brought with them or have built - education, technology, capital, infrastructure, etc. I tell them that I believe their best bet is nonviolent resistance and maximum use of world opinion; that violent resistance is just what the Zionists want because it is a pretext for further oppression. They say the “Palestinian people” are not interested; they just want their whole country back the way it was, and Palestinians who may have moved to other countries and now espouse democracy are traitors and sell-outs. If this is indeed the prevailing opinion, it is one that is simply leading the people to their deaths. Sure, armed struggle is their “right”. So what if it just gets them all killed? Does anyone care about the children? Anybody at all?

Report this

By Mad as Hell, March 9, 2007 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“(In the medieval ages) when the Catholics reconquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi (“Spanish”) Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust…EVERY HONEST JEW WHO KNOWS THE HISTORY OF HIS PEOPLE CANNOT BUT FEEL A DEEP SENSE OF GRATITUDE TO ISLAM, WHICH HAS PROTECTED THE JEWS FOR FIFTY GENERATIONS, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times “by the sword” to get them to abandon their faith.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15089.htm

- Prof. Juan Cole: “Have Arabs Or Muslims Always Hated Jews?...Living as a minority in any society is seldom a picnic, but in fact Jews before the Napoleonic emancipation were substantially better off living in Muslim societies than in Europe.”
http://www.juancole.com/2004/12/have-arabs-or-muslims- always-hated.html

—————————————————————————

Federer, you may not believe this but I have LONG been aware of this. In fact, during the Moorish occupation(!) of Spain, Jews flourished there SO much it was called the “Second Jerusalem”. Enmity between Jew and Moslem is fairly recent—I know Jews today who were forced to leave Tunisia, Libya, Syria and Iran, where their families had lived for countless generations.  They weren’t Israelis—they were Tunisian, Libyan, Syrian and Iranian, but the APARTHEID in THEIR homelands forced them to leave.

The first case I am aware of forced conversions was in the 17th century when the false Messiah, Shabbetai Zvi, was brought before the Sultan and told to choose conversion or death—and chose conversion.  I don’t know if there were earlier ones.

Report this

By A Jew, March 9, 2007 at 11:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
Islam is only peaceful to others when Islamic rule is superior to the other religions in the countries they occupy.
If not, they always try to usurp the government in control. That is fact.
The Jews are now in the driver’s seat in their own country and that is the way it should be.
Th Jews should not need to rely on others for their own survival.
Never Again !

Report this

By Righty, March 9, 2007 at 10:47 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:

The Jewish people NO LONGER have to rely on how Muslims OR Christians treat them. They have an independent state that is strong and technologically advanced.
The Jews would be insane to give this security up and never will.
Again, Before Israel became a state the Jews lived in fear of the majority Muslim population. They were second class people and were required to be subservient to Islam. That is fact.

Report this

By ace, March 9, 2007 at 3:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is amazing the amount of circumvented logic that one finds in this collumn.
People looking in the mirror and repeating mislogic and misquotes.
What an amount of wasted energy.
Look at all of the good that Sadui Arabia has done with all of its cash - all for one small royal family.
Ditto the mullahs in Iran.
Islam is among the most apartheied of all.
There are the believers , the people of the book to know their place as second class citizens and play tribute and the idolaters such as the Hindus or Chinese to be killed.
Yet this religion has done nothing to speak of in the last 500 years yet try to spead itself and spread hate of the west ( who it relies on for its existence).
  Try visiting Saudi Arabia without an “invitation” ?
  Let Amy Goodman go to Saudi Arabia. First of all most likely she would not be let in as she is a jew.  Let here try to do someting taken for granted in the west - say simply drive a car.
  As for the “peace maker” Carter. Has anyone forgotten the wonderful legacy he left us with his negotations with liitle starving North Korea ?
  Mr. Carter the peacemaker left us with a regime who is spreading Nuclear and ballastic technology to the worst despotic and worst tinderbox areas in the world all for simple cash.
  Even the American or the French could not be blamed of such things.
  Does Mr. Carter accept any responsibility for his mistakes.  No we have more of the same - the smiling peanut farmer face.
  for all of this retoric i hve yet to see what the Isrealis are doing so terrible except to be ruling on former arab / moslem territory.
Its all about the occupation ???

Report this

By Federer, March 9, 2007 at 12:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Thanks, Robert. Btw, Tony has many excellent ideas that that hopefully the Israelis and Palestinians gravitate towards, although the majority on both sides currently prefer a two-state solution. Regardless of the ultimate vision, something needs to happen immediately, in parallel: the end of Israel’s ongoing war crimes, violations of international law and other abuses against their Palestinian victims, all largely linked to the occupation. As a test: would any moral-minded person accept continued Nazi occupation of the Warsaw Ghetto while a long-term solution was being worked out. Interestingly, a few days ago a group of German bishops first visited Israel’s holocaust museum in Jerusalem, and later visted a Palestinian town (Ramallah) under Israeli military occupation. The appalled bishops “equated” Israel’s actions to the Nazi Holocaust. The bishops: “Photos of the inhuman Warsaw ghetto at Yad Vashem in the morning, in the evening we go to the ghetto in Ramallah - that blows your lid off” (Haaretz). “This is something that is done to animals, not people.” “…the fence (Anenxation Wall) reminded him of the Berlin Wall and that in his lifetime he did not believe he would see such a thing again. As the Berlin Wall was brought down so will this wall be brought down…” “Cages in the image of ghettos” “Israel has, of course, the right to exist, but this right cannot be realized in such a brutal manner.” (Ynet)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3373013,00.html 

Righty: You’re just not right:

- The UN history link simply repeated investigations by the Shaw Commission in 1929/1930. The Shaw Commission was British, not UN (which didn’t exist then). In 1930, Britain strongly supported the Zionist Jews, against the wishes of the Palestinian majority. The Shaw Commission summarized testimony given by the Palestine’s Jewish representatives (as well as by the Palestinian Arab representatives) that “before the War (i.e., WWI) the Jews and Arabs lived side by side if not in amity, at least with tolerance, a quality which to-day is almost unknown in Palestine.” Between believing Righty’s claims in 2007 and the testimony of Zionist and non-Zionist Jews living in 1930 Palestine – it is right to believe those who knew what really happened.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb85256 07d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument

- It is also easier to believe Uri Avneri because he was a three-term Israeli Knesset member: “(In the medieval ages) when the Catholics reconquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi (“Spanish”) Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust…EVERY HONEST JEW WHO KNOWS THE HISTORY OF HIS PEOPLE CANNOT BUT FEEL A DEEP SENSE OF GRATITUDE TO ISLAM, WHICH HAS PROTECTED THE JEWS FOR FIFTY GENERATIONS, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times “by the sword” to get them to abandon their faith.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15089.htm

- Prof. Juan Cole: “Have Arabs Or Muslims Always Hated Jews?...Living as a minority in any society is seldom a picnic, but in fact Jews before the Napoleonic emancipation were substantially better off living in Muslim societies than in Europe.”
http://www.juancole.com/2004/12/have-arabs-or-muslims-always-hated.html

Report this

By Federer, March 8, 2007 at 11:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Thanks, Robert. Btw, Tony has many excellent ideas that that hopefully the Israelis and Palestinians gravitate towards, although the majority on both sides currently prefer a two-state solution. Regardless of the ultimate vision, something needs to happen immediately, in parallel: the end of Israel’s ongoing war crimes, violations of international law and other abuses against their Palestinian victims, all largely linked to the occupation. As a test: would any moral-minded person accept continued Nazi occupation of the Warsaw Ghetto while a long-term solution was being worked out. Interestingly, a few days ago a group of German bishops first visited Israel’s holocaust museum in Jerusalem, and later visted a Palestinian town (Ramallah) under Israeli military occupation. The appalled bishops “equated” Israel’s actions to the Nazi Holocaust. The bishops: “Photos of the inhuman Warsaw ghetto at Yad Vashem in the morning, in the evening we go to the ghetto in Ramallah - that blows your lid off” (Haaretz). “This is something that is done to animals, not people.” “…the fence (Anenxation Wall) reminded him of the Berlin Wall and that in his lifetime he did not believe he would see such a thing again. As the Berlin Wall was brought down so will this wall be brought down…” “Cages in the image of ghettos” “Israel has, of course, the right to exist, but this right cannot be realized in such a brutal manner.” (Ynet)
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3373013,00.html 

Righty, you’re just not right:

- The UN history link simply repeated investigations by the Shaw Commission in 1929/1930. The Shaw Commission was British, not UN (which didn’t exist then). In 1930, Britain strongly supported the Zionist Jews, against the wishes of the Palestinian majority. The Shaw Commission summarized testimony given by the Palestine’s Jewish representatives (as well as by the Palestinian Arab representatives) that “before the War (i.e., WWI) the Jews and Arabs lived side by side if not in amity, at least with tolerance, a quality which to-day is almost unknown in Palestine.” Between believing Righty’s claims in 2007 and the testimony of Zionist and non-Zionist Jews living in 1930 Palestine – it is right to believe those who knew what really happened.
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb85256 07d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument

- I also find it easier to believe Uri Avneri, simply because he was a three-term Israeli Knesset member: “(In the medieval ages) when the Catholics reconquered Spain from the Muslims, they instituted a reign of religious terror. The Jews and the Muslims were presented with a cruel choice: to become Christians, to be massacred or to leave. And where did the hundreds of thousand of Jews, who refused to abandon their faith, escape? Almost all of them were received with open arms in the Muslim countries. The Sephardi (“Spanish”) Jews settled all over the Muslim world, from Morocco in the west to Iraq in the east, from Bulgaria (then part of the Ottoman Empire) in the north to Sudan in the south. Nowhere were they persecuted. They knew nothing like the tortures of the Inquisition, the flames of the auto-da-fe, the pogroms, the terrible mass-expulsions that took place in almost all Christian countries, up to the Holocaust…EVERY HONEST JEW WHO KNOWS THE HISTORY OF HIS PEOPLE CANNOT BUT FEEL A DEEP SENSE OF GRATITUDE TO ISLAM, WHICH HAS PROTECTED THE JEWS FOR FIFTY GENERATIONS, while the Christian world persecuted the Jews and tried many times “by the sword” to get them to abandon their faith.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15089.htm

- Prof. Juan Cole: “Have Arabs Or Muslims Always Hated Jews?...Living as a minority in any society is seldom a picnic, but in fact Jews before the Napoleonic emancipation were substantially better off living in Muslim societies than in Europe.”
http://www.juancole.com/2004/12/have-arabs-or-muslims-always-hated.html

Report this

By A Jew, March 8, 2007 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:

Israel is not going anywhere. Let no nation try to set asunder that which God reunited back to their land.
She will stay a Jewish state until the final days of the nations on this planet. At that time all nations will recognize that God does dwell in Israel. At that time all nations will come to pay their respects and God will bless the world with peace.
Remember this Federer, for it is predicted by Hebrew prophecy. All has come true until this very day. The rest will happen when God’s appointed time arrives.
You mess with the wrong people. At one time it was the Jews made to suffer at the hands of the nations. In the future the nations will suffer at the hands of God for their evil ways.

Report this

By Robert, March 8, 2007 at 2:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #56926 by Federer on 3/06 @ 1:36 am.


“Finally, I still believe that the Israeli occupation of the 22% of Palestine must be immediately ended as a priority, regardless what state structure eventually happens for the two peoples on the whole 100% of Palestine.”


Federer, I agree with you 100%. Your facts, logic, references and details to the Palestine/Israeli conflict/situation cannot be refuted. Your information has certainly made a great difference to this forum/thread.

Current zionist/Israeli policy & goals is to continue to build new settlements “colonies” & expand existing ones. There are no restrictions on Jewish building projects. For Palestinians, building restrictions are enormous. It is almost impossible to obtain building permits in Jerusalem & the surround area. Building permits, if ever obtained, to non-Jews are costly, in the tens of thousands $$ dollar figure. 

Palestinian land & resources are being grabed by Israelis on a daily basis while the owners just look on at the destruction of their farms, olive groves, homes ...and so on.

Israel & its brutal zionism should NOT be allowed to continue with its current PATH of total annexation of the 22% of occupied Palestinian land. There should be NO rewards to this land theft. Justice & the rule of law should be the path to this conflict. 

The International Court,International Law, UN Resolution 242, 338 & 194 are against Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestinian land.

One assumes that “democratic countries” abide by & uphold the ruling of International Law/World Court. Israel does NOT think so; Israel relies on & exploits the U.S. for diplomatic support/cover.

Federer, you are truly a “truth messenger” & your commitment to the victims of this tragic conflict is commendable.

KEEP ON WITH THE TRUTH, SO OTHERS MAY FIND THE WAY TO JUSTICE FOR ALL PEOPLE.

Report this

By Righty, March 8, 2007 at 1:39 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:

The Jews did not live side by side with the Muslims prior to the 1900s in present day Israel. The Jews lived in fear of them. As long as the Jews obeyed the Muslim authorities they were not persecuted. If they stepped out of line they were murdered. It was required that Jews respect Islamic rule or be murdered. That is the facts my long winded full of crap phony. 
You also need to get rid of that United Nation crap.
They are the biggest anti-Jewish hate organization in this world. They are also the most corrupt organization in this world. It is managed by politicians who steal billions of dollars that should be going to the poverty striken masses all over this planet. The organization needs to be abolished. The money saved to run it would feed the poor of the world for the next 100 years.
So Federer, take your phony U.N. statistics and shove them up your you know what !

Report this

By Federer, March 6, 2007 at 2:36 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony: While the single democratic state is the most desirable solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict created by Zionism, ultimately the desired outcome should be determined by the people affected. Jeff Halper did suggest at least six possible outcomes: “Looked at in its regional context, the case of Palestine/Israel raises at least six possible political frameworks: two states, in which the Palestinian entity is either a truly independent state or a dependent bantustan; a federal bi-national state, an inclusive unitary state, apartheid or a regional confederation.” Ultimately, all Palestinian people—outside Palestine (due to Israel’s ethnic cleansings), in the occupied territories, citizens of Israel—as well as possibly all Israeli Jews and other Israelis should have an opportunity to decide on a solution and exercise their right to self-determination.

An interesting issue is whether imposing a single non-Zionist state solution throughout Palestine (i.e., Israel, Jerusalem, West Bank, Gaza) will be unfair to die-hard Zionists. There may be a legitimate basis for a tiny Jewish state (i.e., Zionism) to continue existing on less than 10% of Palestine. If we take the British occupation of Palestine as the starting point of the Zionist-Western imperialism injustice against the Palestinians (when British forces started supporting the Zionists and facilitating massive Jewish immigration), then Palestine’s Jews before 1918 and their descendants have the same rights to self-determination as the majority Palestinian Arabs do. In 1917, Jews made up about 8 to 9% of Palestine’s population. It is uncertain whether the majority of these Jews were Zionist, as most indigenous Jews in the 19th century (about 3% around 1850s) were not Zionist and not interested in a Jewish state, and the early Jewish immigrants were a mix of those coming for purely spiritual reasons and the Zionists. Had Zionism not been morally corrupted since birth by its early and future leaders, it might have had the chance to evolve into a benign form of foreign Jewish nationalism more acceptable to the Arabs and others.

Finally, I still believe that the Israeli occupation of the 22% of Palestine must be immediately ended as a priority, regardless what state structure eventually happens for the two peoples on the whole 100% of Palestine. Of course, if both could occur simultaneously, that would be better. The illegal Israeli settlements should not be seen as “irreversible facts on the ground” and should not have a bearing on the best possible solution. The illegal settlers chose to commit war crimes by illegally settling in an occupied territory, in violation of international law and UN resolutions. These war criminals have no claims on the land. If all 500,000 settlers in all 200 to 300 illegal settlements in East Jerusalem and West Bank do not evacuate voluntarily, then they should be evicted. They should not be allowed to profit from their crime. Although the Israelis have set the standards for Palestinian house evictions and demolitions, I am sure the Palestinians will show more humanity.

Before Gaza, it was Yamit (in the occupied Egyptian Sinai) that proved that illegal Israeli settlers could be removed. Amnon Kapeliouk described the 1982 evacuation of the illegal Israeli settlement at Yamit, under Ariel Sharon, as “one of the largest brain-washing operations conducted by the (Israeli) government in order to convince the Israeli people that they have suffered a national trauma the effect of which would be felt for generations” and which will create “a national consensus opposed to similar withdrawals, in the remaining occupied territories”. The Israeli commander of the Yamit evacuation admitted: “Everything was planned and agreed from the beginning” with the illegal settlers who were to offer a show of resistance. It was a miracle that no Israeli demonstrator required even first-aid attention, unlike what happens to unarmed Palestinian protesters.

Report this

By Federer, March 6, 2007 at 1:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony: You should read Ali Abunimah’s article “How Barack Obama Learned To Love Israel”. Also see Obama’s speech to AIPAC. Abuminah is author of the excellent book “One Country: A Bold Proposal to End the Israeli-Palestinian Impasse”, which shares some views that you advocate.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=107&ItemID=12262
http://www.counterpunch.org/obama03052007.html
http://www.amazon.com/One-Country-Proposal-Israeli-Palestinian-Impasse/dp/0805080341/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-6757387-8243801?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1173160247&sr=8-1

Some Jews, including Israelis, have also moved towards some form of single state or confederation solution. They include Tony Judt (a couple of links are in my early post), Jeff Halper and Meron Benvenisti. Here are some articles of Jeff Halper, an American-Israeli anthropology professor at Ben-Gurion University and founder of Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions:
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=132
http://www.counterpunch.org/halper09192003.html
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=104
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=108
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=306
http://www.icahd.org/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&article=260

Hope always exists that Jews and Arab Muslims/Christians will someday find a way to live together in one democratic state, just like the South Africans and Northern Irish are trying.

- After all, indigenous Muslims, Christians and tiny minority Jews once got along in Muslim-dominated Palestine for centuries, until about 90 years ago when Zionist Jews started massive colonization of Palestine. Zionist thinker Ahad Haam criticized the early Zionist settlers he saw in the 1890s: “Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom [in Palestine]; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.”
http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story642.html

- When Zionist immigration accelerated after WW1 with British military help, friction snowballed between the Palestinian Arabs and Jewish immigrants from Europe. The early violence in the 1920s was investigated by a special Commission in 1930, headed by Sir Walter Shaw, a retired Chief Justice of the Straits Settlements. “The Shaw Commission observed: “... 80 years before the first of these attacks there is no recorded instance of any similar incidents. It is obvious then that the relations between the two races during the past decade must have differed in some material respect from those which previously obtained. Of this we found ample evidence…(The 1920 and 1921 reports) drew attention to the change in the attitude of the Arab population towards the Jews in Palestine. This was borne out by the evidence tendered during our inquiry when representatives of all parties told us that before the War (i.e., WWI) the Jews and Arabs lived side by side if not in amity, at least with tolerance, a quality which to-day is almost unknown in Palestine” “
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/561c6ee353d740fb8525607d00581829/aeac80e740c782e4852561150071fdb0!OpenDocument

It’s questionable whether an equitable single-state solution is achieveable in the near future, given the present context where US power mostly supports Israel’s solutions. If only Palestinians in the occupied territories and in Israel were able to turn their lives into one massive reality show—by giving every Palestinian a digital vidieo camera to record Israel’s crimes and abuses against them—and broadcast what’s really happening to the US and world. Public knowledge might weaken the Israel lobby’s hold on the Obamas of powerful nations.

Report this

By Lefty, March 6, 2007 at 12:01 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Comment #56818 by Tony Wicher on 3/05 at 10:33 am

Reply to Comment #56568 by Righty on 3/03 at 4:10 pm

OK, Righty: now I’m speaking to you as a Jew.  “Strong and independent homeland”, indeed! Israel is the biggest lackey, the biggest kiss-ass, the most subservient country in the world. It was founded by and does the bidding of U.S. and British imperialism. It has sold out every moral and religious principle in order to curry the favor of these scum of humanity, scum who would just as soon throw you in a gas chamber as look at you, if it served their purposes. In so doing it has corrupted the Jewish people, turning them from the light of the world into a bunch of racist land-grabbing bastards. Shame on you!

————————————————————————-
Half right, Tony! 

You correctly point out, as I have stated many times, that Israel is the tail, not the dog - as Islamist scum like Robert, Big Al, Esther and Fadel have incessantly spewed.  But, “racist land grabbing bastards!”  I suppose there are those kind among all ethnicities.  But, for the most part, Israelis do what they have to do to survive in a desert surrounded by 350 million racist, land grabbing, bastard Arabs who, but for the grace of oil, would still be living in the stone age.

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 5, 2007 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony,
here we cannot agree.

The myth US imperialism has mainly been a big phony for many, many years—Until January of 2001 when President Catastrophe completed his illegal usurping of th office of the President.

But Israel has ALWAYS been a state under siege, in survival mode—and still is.

You ask, no, you DEMAND that Israel commit suicide in a way you ask NO OTHER NATION.

Now let’s be VERY clear on this:  There is NOTHING I agree with more than pushing nations to behave more humanely—whether it is China, Sudan, North Korea, Russia, Belarus…Or the United States and Israel.

Yet there is a difference between committing war crimes and legitimate defense of your national security.  You INSIST that Israel give up her national security.  Differ between the two and we will find common ground to criticize, and not criticize.

But you are GAMBLING with the lives of 5 million Jews that Israel committing hari-kiri will not get those 5 million slaughtered.  You HOPE they won’t be, but you cannot guarantee it. It’s not like those folks you think should rule have such a sterling record on civil liberties themselves—they are ALWAYS killing rivals. 

You HOPE they won’t be relegated to being foreigners in their own land (Like they are in most of the Arab states) but you don’t KNOW that will happen.

Yet you are willing to gamble with their 5 million lives. Who are you to make that gamble? That is not moral. That is not ethical.  That is not your right.  They are not YOUR lives.

So, by all means push, press, use Real Politik to prevent Israel from committing atrocities—make sure we Americans don’t do it anymore either.

But YOUR “solution” risks the greatest atrocity the Middle East has ever seen. 

You just don’t understand: It ain’t gonna happen.  Israel isn’t going to commit suicide.  Peace will not come that route.  Find another—if you REALLY want peace.

Report this

By Righty, March 5, 2007 at 6:30 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony Wicher:

If I want to remain alive as a Jew it is better I not listen to anything you have to say.
You are the biggest threat to the Jews. You come in the name of peace as a deception to catch them off guard and tell them to trust your plan of this democratic multi-cultural one state solution.
It is a plan which can only lead to their destruction. You constantly state that the Jewish state must go. Why Tony must only the Jewish state go and none other in this damn world ?
Screw you and may you merit the ruin of your own wish for the Jewish state.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 5, 2007 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #56488 by Mad As Hell on 3/03 at 5:41 am

Mad,

We are told to be wise as serpents, yet harmless as doves. So let us be aware of the reality of the self-interest which you describe as “real politik”, practiced by all sides, how it functions in the world to create endless war and misery, but let us do what we can to help humanity as we know it to evolve beyond this brutality in the direction of greater humanity, greater civilization.  The way we have to do this is to uphold universal values like human rights and peace and democracy, insist that these apply to all humanity and that all pursuit of self-interest, national or personal, must obey these universal moral principles. I believe that an honest person will always begin with himself and his own country, and I think that under the current administration my own country is the world’s biggest imperialist and oppressor and hypocrite. Israel comes in a close second in my book. I’m sure the Arabs are horrible too, but we don’t have to wait for them to start being decent human beings, do we?

Report this

By Mad as Hell, March 5, 2007 at 2:49 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony,
I’m disappointed. I had hoped you were better than that.

What Righty tossed at you is no more than what Big Al, Esther and others toss all the time, but not in YOUR direction—in mine.

I really don’t have any more to say to you about it.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 5, 2007 at 11:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #56568 by Righty on 3/03 at 4:10 pm

OK, Righty: now I’m speaking to you as a Jew.  “Strong and independent homeland”, indeed! Israel is the biggest lackey, the biggest kiss-ass, the most subservient country in the world. It was founded by and does the bidding of U.S. and British imperialism. It has sold out every moral and religious principle in order to curry the favor of these scum of humanity, scum who would just as soon throw you in a gas chamber as look at you, if it served their purposes. In so doing it has corrupted the Jewish people, turning them from the light of the world into a bunch of racist land-grabbing bastards. Shame on you!

Report this

By Righty, March 3, 2007 at 5:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Now Tony Wicher warns the Jewish people if thay don’t go along with what they are told to do they will suffer another Holocaust at the hands of the non-Jews.
Typical anti-Jew hatred being displayed by this phony peace lover.
Tony, let the world try it again and the Third World War may just come about.
Never again will the Jewish people be led like sheep to slaughter. This time it is the world that will suffer not the Jews.
See Tony, that is why the Jews need a strong and independent homeland that will not allow your kind to threaten them with annihilation if they step out of line from what you and others demand. 
Never Again Tony boy !

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 3, 2007 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The new ‘democratic constitution’ (below) proposed by Adalah in Israel (Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights)  is being discussed among Palestinians inside the Green Line. Can it serve as a prototype? It is in effect a constitution for a non-Zionist state of Israel with full equality under the law.  Bill

*******
Adalah’s Chairman, Prof. Marwan Dwairy
http://www.adalah.org, February 2007, The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights

On the tenth anniversary of its founding, Adalah is issuing “The Democratic Constitution, ” as a constitutional proposal for the state of Israel, based on the concept of a democratic, bilingual, multicultural state (19 pages, pdf file)

http://www.adalah. org/eng/democrat ic_constitution- e.pdf

This proposed constitution draws on universal principles and international conventions on human rights, the experiences of nations and the constitutions of various democratic states.

In recent years, Israeli groups have put forward several constitutions for the state of Israel. However, these proposals are distinguished by their lack of conformity to democratic principles, in particular the right to complete equality of all residents and citizens, and by their treatment of Arab citizens as if they were strangers in this land, where history, memory and collective rights exist only for Jewish people. It is no coincidence therefore that these proposals have been preoccupied with the question of, “Who is a Jew?” and have neglected the primary constitutional question of, “Who is a citizen?” Thus, we decided to propose a democratic constitution, which respects the freedoms of the individual and the rights of all groups in equal measure, gives proper weight to the historical injustices committed against Arab citizens of Israel, and deals seriously with the social and economic rights of all.

If “The Democratic Constitution” succeeds to underscore the enormous gap between it and the other proposals, and to create an objective public debate and dialogue on the nature of rights and freedoms in this country, then we will have taken an important step forward in the issues of racial equality, freedoms and social justice. Work was carried out on preparing this constitution for around two years, during which numerous meetings and study days for Adalah’s staff, Board and General Assembly were held. In my name, and in the name of Adalah, I offer my gratitude and appreciation to the professional staff of Adalah and to its General Director, Attorney Hassan Jabareen, for all of their efforts in preparing this proposed constitution to a high professional level, while adhering to the humanitarian principles on which it is based.

Report this

By Lefty, March 3, 2007 at 8:03 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Once again:

It is intellectually dishonest to compare Israeli security measures with South African apartheid or the European ghettos Jews were forced to live in.  But, once again, intellectual dishonesty is the currency of Arab propaganda. 

In South Africa, black Africans were segregated by Dutch and English whites because the whites hated the blacks so intensely.  Not because the blacks were a threat to white safety. 

Likewise, the Jews in segregated Europe were confined to ghettos, not because they were a threat to the safety of Christians, but because the Christians knew - FROM EXPERIENCE - that they could not compete with Jews on a level playing field in an open and fair market place, so they, in effect, put them in jail.

Conversely, the Jews in Israel segregate the Arabs, not because they hate Arabs, or because they cannot compete with them in the market place on a level playing field (as if, LOL), but because the Arabs hate the Jews and are a threat to the safety of the Jews. Accordingly, the Arabs in and around Israel deserve to be on the outside looking in because they cannot be trusted to co-exist peacefully with Jews.

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 3, 2007 at 6:41 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Oh, come on, Tony! You are a smart man.  You KNOW that diplomacy is based on only a two things:

1) Cost/Benefit Analysis.  Will negotiation, including compromises, cost less than force, including unintended consequences?

2) Fear of what the other side can do to you, economically or militarily. (“War is diplomacy by other means.” Clausewitz)

Sadly, anything else is PR, posturing and part of jockeying for position.

We forget that all diplomacy is carrot-and-stick and without both, there is no diplomacy.  The stick is ALWAYS there, though hidden and cloaked and vaguely referred to by euphemisms.  This is due to living in an a world that is anarchy, and only has ANY vague standards via International Law and the UN.

Real Politik is reality.  When the Arabs imposed the Oil Embargeo, they were doing the same damn thing. I don’t even resent them doing it—they simply felt that acting would do better than diplomacy.  And it worked for them.  It’s not that I LIKE Real Politik, I simply realize that it is necessary. We supported Samoza—and that WAS bad—but we support Saudi Arabia, and they are worse.  We support Kuwait, but after Iraq was driven out the Al Sabah rulers rounded up all the resistance fighters (the heroes who FOUGHT Saddam0 and “disappeared” them.

Let us not forget just how this occupation began: The states of Egypt, Jordan and Syria (and others) decided to abandon diplomacy and use military force to OBLITERATE Israel.  As they built up their forces to attack, Israel seized the moment to put the battle on HER terms (Basic Sun-Tzu principle) and seized THE STAGING AREAS FOR THE ARAB ATTACK! Sinai, Golan, Gaza and the West Bank. This little detail is DELIBERATELY ignored by the anti-Semites. 

Notice that Federer dismisses Arab excesses even claiming Saudi Arabia is not as bad as Israel. Yet year after year Parade Magazine always has Saudi Arabia in its Top 10 worst dictatorships.  I guess to Federer being tortured by your own is better than being tortured by someone else. I fail to understand this logic.

I would love a world where people acted by what is truly right or wrong.  But we don’t.  And our ability to deal with it has been terribly crippled by the excesses and stupidity of our own criminal administration.

Report this

By max rubin, March 2, 2007 at 9:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I am amazed again and again at the endless repetition of the same circle of illogic.
The only thing that was wrong with Richard Nixon was that he got caught was the logic years ago by some.
Here the logic of the Carter book is that the only thing they got wrong was the name. Only to sell books. Everything else is correct ?
I see .
I can understand that Americans somehow see democracy as the highest evolutionary forms of life - wheras in the Moslem world life is one of dictatorships and strongmen - hopefully benovelent.
How George Bush and his friend actually believed that they would be met with welcoming and flowers - it is a bit of the head office mentality gone mad.  Even the story of the wonderfull French in world 2 was a myth.
  Interesting though this article lacks reality in more than a number of places. First there was a conflict and many wars and killing long before ” the occupation”.  The west bank occupation was not planned, was accidental and was a result of shelling by Jordan of even Tel Aviv. The Arabs were out to kill the jews . This was more than stated.
  To believe that Arafat actually accepted Israel
ignores first the speeches in Arabic , the planned intifada , the lack still of a mid ground - still insisting on the law of return.  Just watch official PA tv.
  The jews tried to moderate. They acccepted a middle of the road government. Gave up Gaza.  What happened. Hamas . Rockets. Destruction and more destruction.
  And still from the left wing still only excuses for the hehaviour of the palastinians.
  In the end it all goes back to two points.  The moslems insist that the non believers ( the allowed people of the book - Jews and Christians ) know their place as second class citizens to be tolerated and secondly that no matte what the Jews killed Jesus. That is in the end what it all comes down to.
  It is nice to believe what you want but you have to deal with some reality and facts of life.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 1, 2007 at 9:58 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #56056 by Robert on 2/28 at 9:11 pm

“Jewish Opposition to Israeli Human Rights Crimes is Growing…
Jewish people can help avert the catastrophic effects of Israeli behaviour, but only by taking a stand in opposition to it.”

That is what I believe also. There really is growing anti-Semitism in the world and in the United States, and Jews aren’t being paranoid to see this. But they don’t see or admit or understand that Israeli treatment of the Palestinians, which practically the whole world deplores, has anything to do with it. Whereas, it has everything to do with it, and Jews both inside and outside Israel should understand this and act accordingly. It will be very difficult to make peace with the Palestinians; it does mean no more “Jewish state”, and this will be a difficult political transformation. But Jews everywhere should realize that it must be done for their own sakes as much as anyone’s.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 1, 2007 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #56168 by Mad As Hell on 3/01 at 12:41 pm


“Third, support for Israel is (to be “real politik” blunt) a perpetual knife at the throat of the other states.  They KNOW they cannot beat Israel, especially with our support, and they KNOW Israel has beaten them.  We are, so to speak, the “leash”—and oil or no oil, they know it.”
****************************************
Mad,

I’m aghast - “realpolitik” is right! And here I was, taking such a moralistic view of things, believing that some things are right and some things wrong. How naive of me! Think how what you just said sounds to a man of peace. I don’t want to live my life holding a knife to other people’s throats. I tend to believe that he who lives by the sword dies by the sword, and I want to live a life that is civilized and peaceful. I want to eliminate my enemies by befriending them. That is what religion at its best tells us to do. I want to have peace with the Arabs. I can’t do that by holding a knife to their throats, can I? In saying what you said, you seem to bee endorsing the U.S.-Israel axis and its imperialist activities to control the region for its natural resources using militaristic means, CIA/Mossad tactics, etc. Talk about going along to get along - that is exactly what Israel is doing right now and always has done - gone along with U.S. and British imperialism. “We’ve supported far worse over the years”. That’s your reason why we should support Israel? Because we supported Somoza?? I was against supporting Somoza. Were’t you? What I’m saying is that as a democrat and a man of peace, my concept of the national interest is one that is very different from the “realpolitik” one that you seem to be endorsing. To me, imperialism and democracy are incompatible. It has been so throughout history.

Report this

By PatrickHenry, March 1, 2007 at 7:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

The beauty of living in America’s multi-racial, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural society is that everyone gets discrimminated against one time or another, some more than others. 

While MaH can “prattle on” about his “being jewish” stigmam, I suggest he see a shrink.  It merely detracts from the arguement Carter makes regarding Israeli policy.

“Democracy in name only” Israel’s theocracy oriented government is hardly representative of the people within those borders.

The last operation with the US military where live fire was exchanged with our “ally” was the sinking of the USS Liberty.

Cut them loose.

Report this

By Federer, March 1, 2007 at 4:51 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

PART 2: RED HERRINGS IN PRO-ISRAEL ARGUMENTS

On false double standards and why Israel is not being singled out:

One, the reason that various United Nations bodies and other critics have been more critical of Israel for violating international humanitarian law than they have been regarding human rights abuses by autocratic Arab regimes (with some exceptions such as Saddam’s Iraq) is not because of a bias against Israel per se. It is the fact that Israel is an occupying power while neighboring Arab regimes are not.

Israel commits its worse human rights abuses to an occupied people—the Palestinians—on a belligerently-occupied territory outside Israel. Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc. are committing their (usually less worse) human rights abuses to mostly their own people within their own sovereign states, not on occupied land.

The standards for judgment are higher for crimes and violations committed on another nation’s territories under occupation by a foreign colonial and apartheid power than it is for similar violations committed within a sovereign country. This concept is not difficult to grasp: First, it is one thing to steal money from one of your family members in your own house but it’s another to forcibly enter another person’s house to steal money.

Questions regarding the legality of Israel’s practices in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem, whose illegal annexation has not been recognized by the international community) and Gaza come under UN jurisdiction because these territories—seized by the Israeli military in the 1967 war—constitute occupied territory. Such occupied territory falls under certain international laws and conventions that do not apply to domestic matters

This does not make crimes committed within sovereign states aceptable, as other laws, conventions and treaties do apply to such crimes and abuses. As well, nobody is accepting abuses in such countries. Regardless, it’s immoral to deflect attention from Israel’s occupation crimes by pointing to other countries.

Furthermore, Israel has the infamy of running the longest post-WWII occupation in the world. The Palestinian refugee problem, caused by Israel’s repeated ethnic cleansings since before its founding in May 1948, is the world’s largest and longest persisting (59 years). There’s good reason to first start with the longest and largest problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations

Two, just because another state behaves badly does not let Israel off the hook. Imagine late 1930s Nazi Germany defending its occupations of Poland and Czechoslovakia by condemning its critics of double-standards, bias and not taking action against other imperialistic nations, including Britain, USA, France, Holland, Spain, etc. Or imagine a serial robber saying: “Hey, the police are always picking on me but not the other guys…so what if I’ve been robbing people for 59 years…give me a break…it’s so unfair to be singled out!”

Three, the argument applies both ways. Saddam Hussein probably asked: “Why was Iraq invaded in 1991, after we occupied Kuwait for only a few months, while Israel had occupied and annexed Palestine for 40 to 60 years without similar consequences?” The major powers tend to judge enemy states by far harsher standards than they have applied to Israel. The US has vetoed, blocked or manipulated most UN Security Council resolutions relating to Israel, especially since 1967.

Four, the Israeli occupation is a high priority to the world. Even the World Court emphasized: “the urgent necessity for the United Nations as a whole to redouble its efforts to bring the Israeli Palestinian conflict, which continues to pose a threat to international peace and security, to a speedy conclusion…” The UN Security Council and General Assemblies have also referred to the priority of solving this conflict, which Israel has voluntarily dragged on for 59 years despite repeated Arab attempts to to make peace.

Report this

By Federer, March 1, 2007 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

PART 1: RED HERRINGS IN PRO-ISRAEL ARGUMENTS

Pro-Israel postings often are designed to divert attention from the key issues, such as Israel’s accountability for its grave war crimes, occupation and lack of peace with the Palestinians. The tactics include dubious accusations of double-standards, one-sided narratives, anti-Semitism, blah, blah. Basic test: If we would not—and should not—accept similar excuses from the Nazis (v. Jews), Iraq (v. Kuwait), Syria (v. Lebanon), South Africa Whites (v. South African Blacks and v. South West Africa/Namibia), Indonesia (v. East Timor), etc., why should we accept it from Israel?

False Argument #1: DOUBLE STANDARDS. Some pro-Israel posters insist it is a double-standard to criticize Israel’s human rights abuses against the Palestinians because (a) other Arab states in the Middle East (e.g., Jordan, Yemen, Egypt are “FAR,FAR more brutal than Israel”) and other regimes in the world are doing the same or worse to their own people but (b) we hypocritically or racistly ignore, support or tolerate these abuses. Until Israel’s critics first criticize other states, it’s biased and one-sided to criticize Israel.

First, these pro-Israel posters think it is an adequate defense of Israel to contrast its human rights abuses favourably against rogue regimes, dictatorships, autocracies and failed states in the world. They divert attention from comparing Israel with the vast majority of other constitutional democracies in the civilized world.

Second, Israel’s human rights abuses are often more shocking compared to many other human rights abusers. See below for Amnesty’s country reports of human rights abuses. The relative magnitude is worse because the Palestinian Territories’ population is much smaller than all these countries, except the UAE. As well, Israel’s track record has been appalling over most of its existence—Israel started its pogrom of massive ethnic cleansing, other crimes of humanity, and land thefts against the victimized Palestinians before its founding in May1948 (almost 60 years). Since 1967 (40 years), it has voluntarily continued its mostly illegal, colonial and/or apartheid occupation of East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza Strip.

- Israel’s Occupation of Palestinian Territories:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Isr-summary-eng
- Syria:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Syr-summary-eng
- Jordan
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Jor-summary-eng
- Egypt
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Egy-summary-eng
- Lebanon
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Lbn-summary-eng
- Palestinian Authority
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Pse-summary-eng
- Saudi Arabia:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Sau-summary-eng
- Yemen
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Yem-summary-eng
- United Arab Emirates
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Are-summary-eng
- Iran:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Irn-summary-eng
- Tibet (see ‘Tibet Autonomous Region’ section):
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Chn-summary-eng
- See Myanmar (Burma), North Korea, etc.
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/index-eng

Yet Amnesty, HRW and the newsmedia’s reports on Israel’s abuses may be compromised—i.e., the true picture may be worse than reported. Israel does harass, intimidate, threaten, attack and place restrictions on human rights groups and humanitarian workers. It censors reporting of its military operations in the OPT, leaving observers to get much information from Israel’s propaganda machine. And the Israel government and lobbies do try to influence human rights groups such as Amnesty.
http://www.icj.org/news.php3?id_article=2933&lang=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1-_JmXQt0
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/spiegel/0,1518,429105,00.html
http://www.globalpolicy.org/ngos/credib/2003/1306interview.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/rooij10132004.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/rooij1031.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/rooij11262003.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2304

Report this

By Mad As Hell, March 1, 2007 at 1:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Mad, I do not understand your meaning here. Do you mean that you have personally been discriminated against for being Jewish, or are you referring to what you perceive as a growing general anti-Semitism, involving increasing criticism of Israel? If it is the former, I don’t see such things going on very much in this country these days. If it is the latter, then yes, this is very much happening, and Jews should be very alarmed about it.”

Tony, the answer is BOTH.  I certainly have been personally subjected to anti-semitism in my life, though happily not in about 25 years.  But before then? Yeah, plenty. I have the broken nose to prove it.

It’s not that I defend Israel’s excesses—it’s that I decry the hypocracy that ignores the same thing going on over the line in Syria, or Jordan, and certainly in Saudi Arabia.

So, what DOES Israel offer the US?  THAT is a fair question. 

First, it is THE most reliable ally we have in the region. And that reliable ally has a formidible military, not just a place to land our planes and house our people (think Saudi Arabia).

Second, IF Israel can have peace with her neighbors, she represents the intellectual future of the region: Don’t mis-understand me—it’s not that there aren’t lots of smart, educated Arabs.  It’s that Israel has built over 60 years the infrastructure of a modern Euro/North American techno-nation. Deserts bloom, industries are built, technological advances are made that are home-grown and sold to the world (Have you seen those electronic robotic pool vacuums that figure out the shape of your pool? All are Israeli-made). Israel will be the technological font that Germany was to Europe and Japan to Asia.  ONLY Lebanon, Iran and Palestine have even the POTENTIAL for that role.  Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, have ALL squandered the INCREDIBLE opportunity this oil wealth has given them.  Only the late Shah understood and had vision: He had a limited amount of time to convert bring ancient Persia into being the modern Iran that could compete against Europe when the oil ran out.  Unfortunately, he was a terribly evil tyrant (like Saddam), who fell before he could carry out his far-seeing plan (unlike Saddam).

Third, support for Israel is (to be “real politik”
blunt) a perpetual knife at the throat of the other states.  They KNOW they cannot beat Israel, especially with our support, and they KNOW Israel has beaten them.  We are, so to speak, the “leash”—and oil or no oil, they know it.  We’ve supported FAR worse over the years—FDR said about Samoza in Nicaragua (the uncle of the last dictator): “He may be a sonuvabitch, but he’s OUR sonuvabitch!”

THAT is why, I believe, we are there and should be there.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, March 1, 2007 at 1:48 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55934 by Mad as Hell on 2/28 at 10:51 am

“I am actually Agnostic and not religious at all—but I live in a world that has attacked me for being a Jew and for no other reason.”

Mad, I do not understand your meaning here. Do you mean that you have personally been discriminated against for being Jewish, or are you referring to what you perceive as a growing general anti-Semitism, involving increasing criticism of Israel? If it is the former, I don’t see such things going on very much in this country these days. If it is the latter, then yes, this is very much happening, and Jews should be very alarmed about it. We have often seen on this thread various Americans complaining about Israel’s pernicious influence on the Untited States, “Jews in high places” like the Neocons who are said to have gotten the U.S. into the Iraq war to please Israel, AIPAC buying and intimidating U.S. politicians, big Jews owning the media, manipulating the people by preventing criticism of Israel, and so forth. All of which sounds just like anti-Semitism and makes Jews such as yourself even more paranoid than they already are. I have tried very hard on this thread to get these objecters to undue influence to focus on the existence of a U.S. imperialist-Zionist axis that is serving the interests of neither Americans nor Jews, but only those of the imperialists and Zionists, but many don’t see this very well. There is too much truth in these charges, and this truth ultimately lies in the way Israel is treating the Palestinians. It smells to high heaven, and even Americans are beginning to notice, and know that even Arab governments, corrupt as they may be, are not wrong about this. They are wondering why then we are, or should be, supporting Israel. That’s not anti-Semitic. They are also noticing how quickly and easily the anti-Semitism is brought up every time Israel is criticized, and it is getting worn out with over-use and sounding phoney. That’s not anti-Semitic either. They wonder what good this alliance is doing us. Why should we make the Arabs angry by supporting Israel? The Arabs have the oil we need, not Israel. What’s the point? It’s not anti-Semitic to ask that either.

Report this

By Robert, February 28, 2007 at 10:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Jewish Opposition to Israeli Human Rights Crimes is Growing”

“Criticizing Israel is Not an Act of Bigotry”

By Jason Kunin


“Defenders of Israel often argue that Israel is forced to do what it does—to destroy people’s homes, to keep them under the boot of occupation, to seal them into walled ghettos, to brutalize them daily with military incursions and random checkpoints—to protect its citizens from Palestinian violence. Palestinian violence, however, is rooted in the theft of their land, the diversion of their water, the violence of the occupation, and the indignity of having one’s own very existence posed as a “demographic threat.”

To justify Israel’s continued occupation and the theft of Palestinian land, the state and its defenders attempt to deny Palestinian suffering, arguing instead that Palestinian resentment is rooted not in Israeli violence, but rather in Islam, or the “Arab mentality,” or a mystical anti-Semitism inherent in Arab or Muslim culture. Consequently, pro-Israel advocacy depends upon the active dissemination of Islamophobia. Not surprisingly, engendering hatred in this manner inflames anti-Jewish sentiment among Arabs and Muslims. None of this recipe for making Jews safe.

Jewish people can help avert the catastrophic effects of Israeli behaviour, but only by taking a stand in opposition to it.”


http://www.counterpunch.org/kunin02242007.html

Report this

By PatrickHenry, February 28, 2007 at 7:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

How I tire of the same old equation that to criticize Israel’s policies is akin to hating jews.  I really don’t care who’s running that country.

Behold! A common tactic of “Flipping”&“spinning” an argument by accusing others of bigotry as a response to open criticism of a nation-state.  Especially one heavily subsidized militarily by the United States. 

There are persons with jewish beliefs who have that special relation with Israel and control various media in the United States, they can make or break politians (and actors) careers, they weld considerable influence over what is heard or seen in this country of world events. 

Polititians (and actors) critical of Israel suffer the wrath of bad press and charges of hate. 

The pro’s and cons’s of “Hate speech” legislation deserve its own forum.

A great many Americans know and see this every day, 

I guess Carter decided to say what alot of us already know.  The response to his book proves it.

Report this

By Robert Griffin, February 28, 2007 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony & MaH,

I’ve seen the growth of somewhat anti-Semitic attitudes in some of my friends and in some Jewish anti-Zionists, almost entirely in response to Israeli policies.

People who once would have easily acknowledged Jewish activities in the American Civil Rights movement now seem far more skeptical.  People who once would not think twice about watching a movie about the Holocaust (specifically focusing on Jewish victims and resisters) start telling me that they’ve seen quite enough of those movies.

I’ve read, in this thread especially, characterisations of the Jewish perspective (as if there were just one Jewish perspective) which entirely rule Martin Buber and Raphael Lemkin out. Claims of Israeli involvement in 9/11, which once would have been view by liberals and leftists as completely ridiculous, are seriously considered.

Unfortunately, many pro-Zionists use this growth in skepticism about Israeli values and anger towards Israeli activities as an argument that the current policies must be continued or enhanced. And an anti-Palestinian (or anti-Arab) racism grows among American Israelis, reminiscent to me of the anti-black racism of some of my southern relatives and of so many covert racists I’ve had the displeasure to hear.

As long as Israeli policies continue in this direction, I see no hope for any improvement in the situation.  Even with a change, there are decades of anti-Israeli anger in the Palestinian population which won’t quickly go away, and equally decades of anti-Palestinian feelings and opinions among average Israelis which also won’t quickly change.

When my southern kin and their political allies decided that blacks must be kept ‘in their place’, they created and/or aggravated a situation which improves at little better than a snail’s pace.  The situation between Israelis and Palestinians is similar.

I expect to be attacked both as a pro-Zionist and as an anti-Semite for this post, which shows me some of the depth of the problems deriving from the issue of Israel/Palestine.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

Report this

By Mad as Hell, February 28, 2007 at 11:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony,
I am actually Agnostic and not religious at all—but I live in a world that has attacked me for being a Jew and for no other reason. I don’t look stereo-typically “Jewish”—people are surprised to find out.  I don’t typically “sound” Jewish—I lived in the South for 15 years and people didn’t even know I was a Northerner, much less from the New York area.

I am OK in a Reform temple—it doesn’t drive me crazy.  I can grit my teeth and make it through a Conservative service, but I won’t go NEAR an Orthodox synagogue.

So why is someone like ME “paranoid”?  (and remember “Just ‘cuz your paranoid…..”) It’s because there is FAR more anti-semitism around than you know. I WATCH the rising level of criticism.  I see it taken as a “given” that AIPAC has huge influence. I see it taken as “given” that Israel is controlling Washington, rather than the other way around.  I see people wanting to throw out the baby with the bathwater.  Instead of asking “Is our current policy toward Israel and the Mid-East rational and in our best interests, and, if not how do we fix it?” they simple see a BAD policy and want to throw it out.  And, of course, since almost every Jew has a strong, primal connection to Israel, the next step is easy to take—and many here take it—accusing American Jews of putting America second and Israel first.  Personally, I don’t know any such American Jews—and don’t want to.

But that’s how it starts—and it has started.  Is there an HONEST evaluation of why Israel is our BEST ally in the Middle East? So we support a less-than-perfect democracy.  So? We support Saudi Arabia too! They are one of the WORST tyrannies in the world. And we support Jordan, Yemen, Egypt—places FAR,FAR more brutal than Israel.  And NONE of them has been as reliable an ally as Israel.

I’m glad you are recognizing that the issue is FAR more complicated than Israel’s refusal to Palestinians flood in.  You are understanding that states like Syria will do ANYTHING to disrupt Democracy.

But you also need to realize that Israel cannot be FORCED to take an action that Israelis consider to be national suicide. This is one place where the conservatives and the liberals will stand together.  It is reality.  They will fight to the death first.

I regret the change over there.  When I was growing up Israel was a liberal free nation, even after the 6 Day War.  But the accension of Likud, and the decision that ALL religious matters would be decided by Orthodox rabbis only was a blow to the hope that Israel could be the most free nation on earth. I DO have problems with many of their policies, but others I don’t understand.  But once an ambulance is used to transport arms or armed men, ALL ambulances will be forever searched, and there’s no use whining about it.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, February 28, 2007 at 10:51 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55813 by Mad As Hell on 2/27 at 7:41 pm

I can discount both Federer’s and PatrickHenry’s comments as more of the same prattle. They ignore my logical questions and offer nothing in return. But Tony’s must be addressed.

However, before that: Tony, you STILL haven’t answered my two questions: 1) Why is Israel to be held to a standard the rest of the Middle East around them isn’t? 2) What makes you think the other Arab nations will let your utopian Israeli/Palestinian state function as a democracy when they won’t let Lebanon or the Palestinian Authority be working democracies?

Ok, on to the Tony’s point:

“You are ALWAYS a Jew to people even if you never practice the religion, even if you renounce it and become Christian. Even the Catholic French Cardinal is still “The Jew”!  It is a fact of life that EVERY Jewish child learns…you are a Jew because the world (including America) says you are one.  Remember how ridiculous Rush Limbaugh was saying Obama should renounce being Black?  As if he could? Jews learn that it is no different for them.

Anti-Semitism has been relatively dormant in America for about 40-45 years—but it is on the rise, cloaked in anti-Israel and AIPAC condemnations, and, naturally, growing attacks on Jews—just check this very thread.”
**********************************************
Mad,

There is undoubtedly some previously existing anti-Semitism among Americans cloaked in current condemnations of Israel, AIPAC, etc. Many of us on this thread have tried to distinguish this from legitimate condemnation of Israeli behavior. Israeli war criminals, of course, make this as hard as possible by calling every condemnation of their inhuman brutality “anti-Semitism”. This is having the effect of allowing anti-Semites to pose as defenders of human rights. How do you like them apples? I think you and I might find a lot of common ground because neither of us wants to see this happen.

Again I think you are being somewhat paranoid. Of course there is a whole lot of racism in this country, but it is mostly anti-Black, anti-Oriental or (lately) anti-Arab. American Nazi types were big in the thirties, but these days they are seen as the scumbags they are by the vast majority of the population. Of course one still has to keep one’s eye on them. Just for the record, I am a longstanding member of the Southern Poverty Law Center and I have a picture of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Christian Aryan Nations compound going up in flames after the SPLC won that lawsuit against them. I’m very proud to have contributed to that event.

“You are ALWAYS a Jew to people even if you never practice the religion, even if you renounce it and become Christian.”

Mad, I am not trying to minimize your “Jewishness”, but I suspect that your Jewish paranoia is making you more conscious of being “Jewish” than most other people are. I, for one, would probably never notice it or think of it, unless you invited me to your daughter’s Bat Mitzvah or something. Personally, I love Jewish culture. I think it’s a very important part of American culture. You are indeed an American Jew, and I hope you are proud of it.   

Your question about Lebanon and what, after all, is to be done about Arab nationalism is an excellent one. Let us work on that one together. My position is that Arab nationalism has to be opposed with democracy, not with Jewish nationalism. I am open to all kinds of suggestions.

Report this

By Robert, February 28, 2007 at 12:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“Daily Indignities and Humiliations”

“Watching the Checkpoints”

By Jonathan Cook


“There we find a taxi driver waiting by the side of the road next to his yellow cab. Faek has been there for 90 minutes after an Israeli policeman confiscated both his ID and his drivers licence, and then disappeared with them. Did Faek get the name of the policeman? No, he replies. “Of course not,’ admits Nomi. “What Palestinian would risk asking an Israeli official for his name?”

Nomi makes more calls and is told that Faek can come to the police station in the nearby settlement of Ariel to collect his papers. But, in truth, Faek is trapped. He cannot get through the checkpoints separating him from Ariel without without his ID card. And even if he could find a tortuous route around the checkpoints, he could still be arrested for not having a licence and issued a fine of a few hundred shekels, a small sum for Israelis but one he would struggle to pay. So quietly he carries on waiting in the hope that the policeman will return.

Nomi is not hopeful. “It is illegal to take papers without giving him a receipt but this kind of thing happens all the time. What can the Palestinians do? They dare not argue. It’s the Wild West out here.”

—————————————————————————

Jonathan Cook’s article on the Israeli IDF checkpoints in the Occupied Territories tells it all.

ISRAEL’S APARTHEID, RACISM & NAZI METHODS/SYSTEMS ARE ALIVE & PRACTICED WITHOUT ANY RESTRICTIONS.

ONE CAN JUST IMAGINE WHAT GOES ON AT THE HUNDREDS OF IDF CHECKPOINTS. THERE ARE NO CNN, FOX NEWS REPORTERS WITH CAMERA CREWS OUT THERE!

ISRAEL’S BRUTAL IDF ARE HAVING “A FIELD DAY” AGAINST AN OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN CIVILIAN POPULATION!

Here is the link:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook02232007.html

Report this

By Mad As Hell, February 27, 2007 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Part 2 begins:
Jews spent over a thousand years (if not 2) trying to keep a low profile, stay below the radar and not make trouble.  Yet it always found them.  Whether it was the simultaneous expulsion from Spain and England in 1492, or the Czarist pogroms to cover for the Czar’s corruption, or the Holocaust, Jews ALWAYS tried to keep a low profile.  Rabbis in Europe urged Jews NOT to resist the Nazis on the theory that would infuriate them more.  They were wrong.  If every one of those 6.5 million had found a way to kill a Nazi for each Jew the War would have ended far quicker.  Jews were actually MORE assimilated in Germany than anywhere else in Europe.  German Jews abandoned the traditional language of Yiddish and spoke High German instead, as most American Jews speak American English, and British Jews speak the Queen’s English.  They were Germans first, and Jews second.  More assimilated in Germany than elsewhere—but it was the Germans who turned on the Jews so ferociously.

Yeah, America has been far more hospitable to Jews than most of Europe (Holland was generally more liberal), but there has always been an undercurrent of threat.  Still, the impact of the Holocaust is unimaginable to most people in the world.  Imagine if half of all Americans were murdered by a madman for no reason.  Imagine that the world stood by and not only let it happen, but refused to accept refugees.  NO nation would accept fleeing Jews except in very small numbers.  It’s not just European Jews who were hammered by this—it was ALL Jews.  The MOST hospitable and progressive nation in Europe turned on Jews who thought they were fully assimilated and slaughtered them.  This echoes across a people’s consciousness: If GERMANY could do it, why couldn’t England or the United States, ESPECIALLY the United States where there were SO many similarities to Germany—and excellent relations between 1920 and 1933. 

I’m trying to explain and make sense of Jewish Paranoia, and why Israel is to so many either THE only safe haven, or the Last Refuge if need be.

Report this

By Mad As Hell, February 27, 2007 at 8:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I can discount both Federer’s and PatrickHenry’s comments as more of the same prattle. They ignore my logical questions and offer nothing in return. But Tony’s must be addressed.

However, before that: Tony, you STILL haven’t answered my two questions: 1) Why is Israel to be held to a standard the rest of the Middle East around them isn’t? 2) What makes you think the other Arab nations will let your utopian Israeli/Palestinian state function as a democracy when they won’t let Lebanon or the Palestinian Authority be working democracies?

Ok, on to the Tony’s point:
“I never noticed any of them “going along to get along” in any sense other than the way all of us have to do that.”  Um, that doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. I can’t tell you the myriad reminders you swallow—from your town using tax dollars to put up Christmas lights, to proselytes demanding creches on public property, even to seeing MacDonald’s gen’ing up “A Feivel Christmas” campaign with the characters from “An American Tale” who are clearly Jewish and don’t celebrate Christmas.  That’s little stuff.  But you would NEVER see that stuff because it doesn’t get under your skin…why would it?  That’s not an attack, merely an observation.  You simply wouldn’t be aware of it.

There are the people whose attitude changes when they find out you are a Jew.  There are the clubs and fraternities that won’t admit you (not that I cared). There are the kids who pick on you and the proselytes who try to “save” you.

You are ALWAYS a Jew to people even if you never practice the religion, even if you renounce it and become Christian. Even the Catholic French Cardinal is still “The Jew”!  It is a fact of life that EVERY Jewish child learns…you are a Jew because the world (including America) says you are one.  Remember how ridiculous Rush Limbaugh was saying Obama should renounce being Black?  As if he could? Jews learn that it is no different for them.

Anti-Semitism has been relatively dormant in America for about 40-45 years—but it is on the rise, cloaked in anti-Israel and AIPAC condemnations, and, naturally, growing attacks on Jews—just check this very thread.

Jews are NOT the most successful ethnic group in this country, though Jews are VERY successful here.  The MOST successful ethnic group is ABSOLUTELY and BY FAR the WASP.  Van Buren, Eisenhower, Kennedy and Reagan are the ONLY Presidents who weren’t WASPs. There have been 2 Irish Presidents (Kennedy and Reagan) but no Jewish ones—and may never be.

Despite the myth, most of the bankers and Wall Street is run by WASPs, not Jews. Curiously, many, if not of the stock trading houses (“sell side”) have at their helms men with Irish names.  Yup, the “Irish Mafia” is how they are nick-named on Wall Street.

DESPITE all this, Tony, I was talking from a more historical point of view.  As Jews moved across Europe, they weren’t allowed to own land or property. They weren’t allowed to engage in crafts or be laborers.  They were frequently ONLY allowed to engage in the money-lending—because Christians were forbidden to charge interest.  So that was the ONLY way Jews could earn a living—and then were condemned for it.

End Part 1

Report this

By PatrickHenry, February 27, 2007 at 3:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I see Tony is recieving the ire from the “Israel first” crowd. I’m sure GIYUS has got him dialed in.

I believe Tony is being objective and those rebuffing him are displaying the atypical arrogance which has become common amongst those defenders of Israeli policy.

It’s bad enough that AIPAC, JCPA, ADL, AIE, BB and several other Israel lobbies have our polititians by the balls, but to continue to finance Sabrah type massacres and allow attacks on the USS Liberty without so much as an explanation to the American people, gets my goat.

We need campaign finance reform to neuter these lobbies and get out of the middle east, let Israel fend for itself, keep the billions at home where they are needed.  Our political standing amoung the world would improve overnight. 

I’m not for the arabs or persians either, if they don’t allow freedom of religion or pluracy in government screw them too, but we can’t get it from a barrel of a gun.

The framework of the United Nations is in place and should be more utilized.  There is graft and corruption (just like in the US and Israeli governments) but it can be fixed.  The world gets smaller every day, we need a world forum.

Report this

By Jimmy, February 27, 2007 at 6:20 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony, I demand that you address Mad As Hell’s intelligent comment #55278 on your one sided attacks on Israel. Though the Arabs and other nations occupy lands by their own political systems, you only state that Israel “must” give up its system.
Israel is a democratic state which freely elects their government. This includes giving Israeli Arabs the same rights too.
The Arab Muslims on the West Bank & in Gaza do not want to be part af Israel and therefore do not have the right to vote in Israeli elections.
To allow them the right to vote would be the same as allowing the British to vote in the United States during the revolution.
You are mad Tony and obviously anti-Jewish.
Again, answer Mad As Hell’s comment #55278 to you without evading his questions.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, February 26, 2007 at 11:48 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55442 by Mad As Hell on 2/26 at 11:39 am

“Now, finally, there is ONE and only one place in the world where Jews don’t have go along to get along—Israel—and they see that NOTHING has changed—the world still periodically wants to slaughter them, but now uses the fact that Jews won’t “go along” anymore as the justification.”
**********************************************
I don’t see it this way. All my life, a large percentage of my friends have been Jews, and I never noticed any of them “going along to get along” in any sense other than the way all of us have to do that. That just means we all have to learn how to compromise and be tolerant. If you think Jews should be any exception, again I don’t agree. This is just more Jewish defense paranoia. Jews are not the object of racial prejudice in the U.S. - not that there aren’t anti-Semites around, but Americans generally like Jewish people and they like Israel. Jews are the most successful ethnic group in the country. The behavior of Israel, however, is causing real anti-Semitism to grow worldwide by leaps and bounds. Jewish fears are self-fulfilling.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, February 26, 2007 at 11:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55442 by Mad As Hell on 2/26 at 11:39 am

More and more, I like this Mad as Hell! Now we are really talking. It’s true, I do not identify myself as Jewish, and I don’t have that Jewish paranoia. I think I understand it, however, and the fact that I do not suffer from it qualifies me to see things objectively and to prescribe treatment.

My mention of Arab nationalism was the result of an exchange I had with a real Palestinan militant who told me that my proposal for a referendum for Palestinians in the occupied territories was treason to her cause. She said I did not understand that Palestine was an Arab land. Well, as a democrat I did not agree. It is no more an Arab land than a Jewish land. We just can’t think this way any more in this modern world. It’s getting smaller all the time, you can fly anywhere in a few hours, the Internet connects everybody at the speed of light - only democracy can work in such a world. So both Jews and Arabs have to learn how to be democratic and how to live with other people. It’s that or destruction. There’s nowhere to go. So, let’s start with Israel/Palestine. Drawing a line somewhere in Palestine between Jews and Arabs is precisely the CAUSE of the conflict, not its solution. Good fences don’t make good neighbors. No matter where you draw that line, where you build that wall, you will not get “two democracies living in peace side by side”. You will get two racist states living in perpetual war side by side.

Report this

By Federer, February 26, 2007 at 10:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Here’s what Righty, Mad As Hell and Eli are desperately defending. See link for an advance version of the independent report on Israel’s apartheid and other crimes against the Palestinians (UN Human Rights Council’s website).
http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/4session/A.HRC.4.17.pdf

“The report by John Dugard, a South African law professor who is the UN’s special rapporteur on human rights in the Palestinian territories, represents some of the most forceful criticism yet of Israel’s 40-year occupation.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2019483,00.html

Prof. Dugard equated Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories to colonialism and apartheid South Africa. He appropriately suggested there should be “serious consideration” over bringing Israel’s occupation to the International Court of Justice (the UN had requested four advisory opinions from the World Court to guide it in its approach to South Africa’s occupation of South-West Africa/Namibia).

Prof. Dugard explained: “The international community has identified three regimes as inimical to human rights—colonialism, apartheid and foreign occupation. Israel is clearly in military occupation of the OPT. At the same time elements of the occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law. What are the legal consequences of a regime of prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid for the occupied people, the occupying Power and third States? It is suggested that this question might appropriately be put to the International Court of Justice for a further advisory opinion. The Occupied Palestinian Territory is the only instance of a developing country that is denied the right of self-determination and oppressed by a Western-affiliated State. The apparent failure of Western States to take steps to bring such a situation to an end places the future of the international protection of human rights in jeopardy…”

Prof Dugard said although Israel and apartheid South Africa were different regimes, “Israel’s laws and practices in the OPT [occupied Palestinian territories] certainly resemble aspects of apartheid…and probably fall within the scope of the 1973 International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid.” This law “criminalizes practices of racial segregation and discrimination that, inter alia, involve the infliction on members of a racial group of serious bodily or mental harm, inhuman or degrading treatment, arbitrary arrest or the deliberate creation of conditions preventing the full development of a racial group by denying to such a group basic human rights and freedoms, including the right to freedom of movement, when such acts are committed “for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over any other racial group of persons and systematically oppressing them”“.

Israel’s military has committed “multiple war crimes” because its responses have been “grossly disproportionate and indiscriminate”. After describing the “unashamed discrimination” against Palestinians in the West Bank (with house demolitions, as well as with preference given to illegal Israeli settlers on exclusive roads, closed zones, building rights and army protection) and revealing that “the IDF inflicts serious bodily and mental harm on Palestinians” (e.g., “over 700 Palestinians are held without trial…prisoners are subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment”), Prof. Dugard concluded: “Can it seriously be denied that the purpose of such action is to establish and maintain domination by one racial group (Jews) over another racial group (Palestinians) and systematically oppressing them? Israel denies that this is its intention or purpose. But such an intention or purpose may be inferred from the actions described in this report.”“
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dugard.html

Report this

By Tony Wicher, February 26, 2007 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55460 by Jimmy on 2/26 at 1:22 pm

“Wicher is a dangerous individual.”

Damn right. Thaks for the compliment.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, February 26, 2007 at 8:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55460 by Jimmy on 2/26 at 1:22 pm

“He only attacks Israel which is trying to protect its own citizens from Arab Muslim terrorism. Wicher is a dangerous individual. He pretends to be even handed but only attacks Israel.”

Jimmy,

I am not attacking Israel. I am attacking Zionism. All I want to do is convert Israel from Zionism to democracy. I want to transform Israel as we know it into a democracy, not an Islamic state or an Arab national state. Perhaps you didn’t read my previous remark, but I did mention Arab nationalism as yet another form of racism.  It’s easy to see other people’s racism, but hard to be aware of one’s own.

I would like to convert all the Arab states into democracies too. But first things first, I always say. Let’s start with Israel. Better yet, let’s start with the United States, and hang King George.

Report this

By Righty, February 26, 2007 at 7:04 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Lefty:

Prophecy has already come true. The state of Israel is proof of that. I am surprised that you continue to deny this.
So my friend, open your eyes and see that the miracle has already happened and the final prophecy will also come true.
I have not insulted you but you have gone out of your way to insult me.
You should know, that those who wish the destruction of the Jewish people, just loved reading the last message you related to me.
Peace my friend.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, February 26, 2007 at 6:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #55460 by Jimmy on 2/26 at 1:22 pm

“WOW, Wicher has gone over the edge.
He is not only a confirmed Jew hater but anti-American.”

I am not anti-American. I AM an American. I speak for the American people. I believe my countrymen would all agree with me if they understood the situation. I am “anti” this piece of garbage of a president we have and his murdering administration. I want my country back.

Report this

By Jimmy, February 26, 2007 at 2:22 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

WOW, Wicher has gone over the edge.
He is not only a confirmed Jew hater but anti-American. His hatred for the United States and Israel are very evident by his comments. He continues to ignor Arab Muslim human rights violations against their own people and innocent civilians in Israel. He only attacks Israel which is trying to protect its own citizens from Arab Muslim terrorism.
Wicher is a dangerous individual. He pretends to be even handed but only attacks Israel. He is a screwball who thinks he has come up with the perfect plan to solve the Israeli/Arab problem.
His solution is to eradicate the Jewish state and replace it with an Islamic state run by Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah and a few other terrorist groups. He believes that these groups will form a democratic multi-cultural state. Wicher must truly be the biggest idiot who ever lived.
I use the term “idiot” because anybody who has the nerve to put at risk the lives of people with a non-workable plan is a true “idiot”.
He tells Jews that they “must” give up their country and hand it over to the enemy who seeks to destroy them.
He must think the Jewish people are fools. They are not and will never surrender to the Arab Muslims who seek to destroy them.

Report this

By Mad As Hell, February 26, 2007 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony,
I DO appreciate your keeping it intellectual and not personal, I really do. 

However you keep avoiding two issues. 

First, you FINALLY addressed (barely) the fact that Israel is, AT WORST, only doing what her neighbors in the region do every day.  Sure, you give a token condemnation of Arab nationalism as being racist, but you have YET to say the obvious: THEY need to be pressured to end THEIR racist practices just as Israel needs to be.  You may not believe this, but I have ALWAYS felt the Likud was going to get Israel destroyed. I have thought Ariel Sharon to be one of the most dangerous enemies of peace in the region.  I was wrong—when he became PM it was clear there were even worse, like Biyamin “What-a-Yahoo”. 

Yet as long as racism is tolerated and ignored and even tacitly SUPPORTED in the Arab states in the Middle East, then a biased, one-sided attack solely on Israel is hypocritical.  One cannot ignore Arab racism, then claim the moral high ground while attacking Israeli transgressions.  Then, it’s nothing but political posturing.

Second, you also refuse to address the obvious distress of Israel’s northern neighbor and the implications for Israel.  The Arab states will not TOLERATE a Western-style democracy in Lebanon, despite it being perfectly clear that is the will of the majority there. Lebanese are systematically being denied their right of self-determination, but not by Israel, but by Syria and Iran, primarily. NONE of the Arab states want to see a successful democratic Arab state because the implication will THUNDER across Arab lands—“We don’t need dictators and kings—we can PROSPER with freedom—it’s working in Lebanon!”  NOTHING frightens all the tin-pot dictators in the region more.

So Lebanese democracy has been violently disrupted.  So too, has Israel’s other closest neighbor, the Palestinian Authority—and by the same Arabs and Iran.  And don’t you think it’s for the same reasons?

The OBVIOUS and ONLY rational inference is that if your ideal utopic Palis-real/Isr-stine ACTUALLY happened, the VERY SAME FATE would await it as Lebanon and the P/A.  Syria et Al, and Iran would STRENUOUSLY work to disrupt it violently…because if a Democratic Arab Lebanon is a threat, a Democratic Arab/Jewish Israel would be 100 times the threat! Plus, do you think THEY don’t realize what a heavy expansion of the Israeli army would mean? Under the generally awesome professionalism there?

Tony, you clearly are not a Jew.  You do not understand Jewish paranoia, that dates back to the Diaspora.  Jews have learned over 2 millenia to TRUST NOBODY, except other Jews (and lots of times not even then).  And just because Jews are paranoid, doesn’t mean it isn’t justified.  For centuries Jews followed “you have to go along to get along” but periodically got slaughtered anyway, not just during the Nazi period.  The lesson took 2000 years to sink it, but Hitler (and Stalin—a ferocious anti-semite) managed to finally do it. 

Now, finally, there is ONE and only one place in the world where Jews don’t have go along to get along—Israel—and they see that NOTHING has changed—the world still periodically wants to slaughter them, but now uses the fact that Jews won’t “go along” anymore as the justification.  It’s a small place, smaller than New Jersey, and it’s in a sea of Arab land twice the size of the United States.  Yet you would have them give up that sole spot in the world and “depend on the kindness of strangers.”

Please re-evaluate your arguments…they just do not work.  You are advocating that 5 million Jews gamble their lives on your plan, when there is ample evidence it won’t work.  Why SHOULD they take that gamble?

Report this

By Lefty, February 26, 2007 at 10:26 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Comment #55351 by Righty on 2/25 at 6:41 pm

Lefty:

If not for right wing Jews there would not be a Jewish religion or state of Israel today.
The right to the land is based on historical world history and biblical prophecy.
I cannot believe how blind you are to these facts.
What people in the history of this world have returned to the very same land they were exiled from for nearly 2,000 yrs ?  Answer: None !
Can you not see that the re-establishment of the state of Israel is biblical prophecy confirmed ?
Are you that blind to see this truth before your very eyes ? There has never been anything like this.
The ability for 5,000,000 Jews to survive in the midst of nearly 250,000,000 hostile Arab Muslims is a miracle by itself.
The truth is before you and the final prophecy will surely come true. That prophecy is that once the Jews were re-established in their land, that the nations of the world would once again try to take the land away. However, it will not be the Jews who will suffer but those nations who look to destroy the Jewish people and remove them from the land God gave them.
Lefty, you may be one who does not believe in God or biblical prophecy. However, if something so remote, as the re-establishment of the Jews in their land happens in accordance with 2,500 yr. old prophecy, then I would be a fool to view it as pure chance rather than confirmation of biblical prophecy.
Lefty, you can bet on that !
———————————————————————

Righty,

You truly are a righty. (That was intende as a pegorative remark). You cannot make an argument without the aid of false premises, and you do not live in the reality based universe.  Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Bill O’Reilly, and Michael “Savage” Weiner would be proud of you.

Israel is a leftist, socialist nation founded by Jews who have a long, long history and tradition of leftist, socialism.  Israel exists because the leftist, socialist, Jews who founded it had the courage to fight and defend themselves against racial hatred. 

Conversely, history has also proven that right-wing nutbags (like you), are cowards and hypocrites who run from a fight, dodge military drafts and survive by the bravery and labor of others.  In other words right-wing nutbags are parasites.

As for the bible, it may have some historical basis in fact.  However, biblical prophecy is 100% superstitious, bullshit. There is no difference between the bible’s notion of God or prophecy and Greek/Roman mythology, witchcraft, voodoo, or any of other primative, superstitious nonsense that righties like you “believe” in.

Report this

By Tony Wicher, February 26, 2007 at 9:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Comment #55278 by Mad As Hell on 2/25 at 7:03 am

A second thought. I was being too reassuring when I said that de-Zionizing Israel would not necessarily involve harming a hair on anyone’s head. Actually, it would most likely involve harming not only the hair but the entire heads of quite a few people. The recent U.N. report on conditions in the occupied territories previously cited by my moderate friend Federer document many war crimes. De-Zionizing Israel probably will involve hanging some big Zionists when Palestinians bring charges in the World Court. I won’t shed a tear for them. But then again, I’m an equal opportunity hard-ass, when it comes to it. I have also called for Bush and Cheney to be impeached, tried, convicted of war crimes and high treason, and hanged, preferably with the same rope used to hang Saddam. I wonder how he would look, with that rope around his neck, ready to drop: a lot less dignified than Saddam, I would think. I imagine the little bastard would be pissing and crapping his pants. I would really like to see that, as a symbol of the end of the American Empire and the restoration of American democracy.

Report this

Page 2 of 9 pages  <  1 2 3 4 >  Last »

 
Right 1, Site wide - BlogAds Premium
 
Right 2, Site wide - Blogads
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 
 
 
Right Skyscraper, Site Wide
 
Join the Liberal Blog Advertising Network
 

A Progressive Journal of News and Opinion   Publisher, Zuade Kaufman   Editor, Robert Scheer
© 2014 Truthdig, LLC. All rights reserved.

Like Truthdig on Facebook