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Sheinbaum: Carter’s ‘Apartheid’ Mistake

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Posted on Dec 22, 2006
Sheinbaum and Carter
Sheinbaum: Jewish Journal; Carter: Amazon.com

Stanley Sheinbaum and the cover of Jimmy Carter’s new book.

By Joshua Scheer

Truthdig speaks with the internationally renowned diplomat, peace activist and scholar Stanley Sheinbaum about Jimmy Carter’s controversial new book, “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.”

Sheinbaum has long been active in the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. In 1988 he headed a nongovernmental delegation of five American Jews that succeeded in getting Yasser Arafat to recognize Israel and to disavow terrorism.

He has been a board member of the International Center for Peace in the Middle East in Tel Aviv since 1982 and a board member of Americans for Peace Now since 1988.

He was chairman of the American Civil Liberties Foundation of Southern California and a regent of the University of California.

Currently the publisher of New Perspectives Quarterly, Sheinbaum remains active in Mideast peace efforts, along with a host of other progressive issues. He speaks here with Truthdig research editor Joshua Scheer.

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Truthdig: What is your impression of the Jimmy Carter book?

Sheinbaum: Very serious, very intelligently written and laid out; putting in all sorts of components that were important to have included, such as the records of the various agreements that were made, starting way back in the first century and bringing it right up to date in about a dozen pages.

 
 

Truthdig: It’s called “Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid.”  How does this come up?

Sheinbaum: My take on it was that Carter was trying to use the concept of apartheid as a way of creating an interest in the problem, but not making an accusation about it, [not] that this was an apartheid scheme as we understand it from South Africa, but rather that there were components that should lead to a discussion and have Jews everywhere thinking about what the implications of the policy were.  And the major component, as you probably know, is the occupation of Palestinian lands, especially in the West Bank, which is not considered part of Israel, or hasn’t been.  But a number of Israelis and hard-line American Jews have wanted to consider it [a part of Israel].

Truthdig: Is Carter critical of the Palestinians and their involvement in bombings and actions of that sort?

Sheinbaum: Yeah, he gets into the question. Especially of Hamas, which he practically calls a terrorist organization.

Truthdig: Would you call it a balanced book?

Sheinbaum: Yes.

Truthdig: Some have criticized the book [as] not being historically accurate, that it lacks some facts. Did you find that to be true?

Sheinbaum: No.  As I said, he has a chronology going way back to the first century, with the various components, and bringing it up to the 21st century; various agreements that were made, [and] when they were not adhered to, when they were adhered to, and he is very articulate about that.

Truthdig: Some of his other books have been about a less controversial subject matter; do you think he knew what he was getting into when he wrote this book?

Sheinbaum: I think he made a serious mistake, to answer that question, when he applied the term “apartheid.”  He was hoping to use the concept of apartheid as something that would create a dialogue or a debate.  But instead, it created accusations against him, that he was equating what was going on in the occupied lands with what went on in South Africa.

Truthdig: So in your mind his only mistake was using the term “apartheid”?

Sheinbaum: Yes.

Truthdig: Is it a good book?

Sheinbaum: It’s a good book.

Truthdig: Did he recognize his role in possibly contributing to the creation of Al Qaeda, and therefore increasing terrorism, through his actions in Afghanistan when he was president of the United States, or was that not in the book?

Sheinbaum: I don’t recall that being in the book.

Truthdig: It’s interesting because of [Zbigniew] Brzezinski [the architect of the strategy of supporting the mujahedeen in Afghanistan against the Soviets; the Afghan “freedom fighters” later formed the Taliban]... .

Sheinbaum: Yeah, the one thing that sort of startled me was that he talks about Bill Clinton as having been determined to bring about peace between Palestinians and the Israelis. But then under Bill Clinton’s tenure, the Israelis occupied much of the West Bank.  And it’s almost as if Clinton sanctioned that.

Truthdig: Do you think Clinton did that?  Do you think that was a mistake in the book not to mention it?

Sheinbaum: No, I think that was a mistake on Clinton’s part.

Truthdig: You were intimately involved in the peace process.  Can you explain what you did, and would that method perhaps work today?

Sheinbaum: No, it’s not as easy today.  The tensions are greater, the divisions are greater, and the self-interest is stronger than ever, on both sides. The Israelis are moving into large areas of the West Bank, and for the Palestinians this is a hostile thing to do; it keeps them further from coming to terms with the Israelis.

Truthdig: How did you help to create peace, if only temporarily?

Sheinbaum: Well what I did, as you may know, I organized a group of five American Jews including myself, to go deal with Arafat, who was then the leader in some vague way of the Palestinians.  [We tried] to get him to accept ... Israel as a national state, and to disavow terrorism, which he did ... and that was a significant thing to do, and then there was a lot of pressure on him from the hard-line Palestinian side to back off.

Truthdig: Is that why the peace did not last?

Sheinbaum: It didn’t last ... because the intensity from the hard-line Palestinian side was very strong.

Truthdig: When you went to meet with Arafat, what was the reaction in the Jewish community?

Sheinbaum: Very negative.

Truthdig: Why was that?

Sheinbaum: At one point, when I got back, there where dead pigs thrown in my driveway.

Truthdig: Is there any way to take action toward peace without having such hate directed at you?

Sheinbaum: Well, anyone who talks to an enemy is himself an enemy.

Truthdig: Was this worth it to you?

Sheinbaum: Well, I got Arafat to accept the concept [of an Israeli state], and to disavow terrorism.

Truthdig: In your estimation, is there any politician out there today with a plan, or at least the courage to take on this issue and risk being labeled an anti-Semite?

Sheinbaum: I’m really not aware of anyone.

Truthdig: I’m still having a hard time understanding why people would be so opposed to your efforts to foster peace. Why would they call you a Jew-hater and an anti-Semite, especially since you are Jewish?

Sheinbaum: In political conflict you get these kinds of reactions. If they’re not on your side and there are political things at stake, then the antipathies are really very strong. 

Truthdig: This is a quagmire, probably the worst situation in the world. 

Sheinbaum: Oh yeah, this cannot go on.

Truthdig: What could fix the problem?  As you said, the divisions are great, so the peace efforts that worked before will likely not work again.  So what could work now?

Sheinbaum: There are tensions in the Middle East that are now very strong and could lead to explosions of an undetermined nature, and everything must be done to stop that. 

Truthdig: Do you have a plan for that yet?

Sheinbaum: No.

Truthdig: Are you working on one?

Sheinbaum: No, I’m not. ... I’m not allowed to travel anymore.  I have had some physical problems. ... And to get involved in an active way ... [when] you can’t travel—it’s almost impossible. I should say that I’m trying to keep in touch with those American and international Jews who think similarly to myself.

Truthdig: So you are still as active as you can be without being able to travel?

Sheinbaum: Yeah.

Truthdig: Do you think Carter’s book is a good attempt to try to find a peaceful solution?

Sheinbaum: Yeah, and I think it’s unfortunate that provocative term “apartheid” was included, because it’s turning people against the book.  People like Alan Dershowitz and Marty Peretz of The New Republic are misinterpreting it.

Truthdig: Dershowitz wrote that he was upset by Carter’s unwillingness to engage in a public debate.  Would you like to see a debate?

Sheinbaum: Sure.

Truthdig: So the “apartheid” term is really the key point here?

Sheinbaum: It’s the trigger.

Truthdig: They probably intended to use it to sell books, with that powerful word, and now it seems to have blown up in their face.

Sheinbaum: No, I don’t want to impute that motivation to him [Carter].  I think he was sincere; I don’t know him that well.  They may have been hoping that the term would trigger a debate.

Truthdig: And it obviously did.

Sheinbaum: Yeah, but to an extent those who are using it are trying to invalidate the book itself.

Truthdig: Thanks so much for your time.


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Robert's avatar

By Robert, May 15, 2007 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

IT HAS BEEN SAID THAT A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS. EVEN WITH A THOUSAND WORDS, HOW CAN ONE DESCRIBE THE LOOK IN THE EYES OF A 13 YEAR OLD PALESTINIAN BOY BEING USED BY ISRAEL’S IDF AS A “HUMAN SHIELD” ?


THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS THAT THERE IS SOME STORIES & TRUTH THAT CAN ONLY TOLD WITH PICTURES.


Take a look & read the TRUTH of this story:


http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=11&ar=1018

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By Tony Wicher, May 14, 2007 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

Reply to #69913 by Bob Griffin on 5/14 at 11:42 am

Amen, brother.

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By Bob Griffin, May 14, 2007 at 12:42 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Righty, Hondo, etc.

This past Thursday I heard a lecture on part of the first genocide of the 20th century.  Israel is still supporting the denial of the genocide of 1915.  Hrant Dink was murdered this year because he didn’t want the world to forget.

Israel is supporting both the major and minor powers connected with Seyfo, the genocide in 1915 in Asia Minor (both Turkey and the Kurds). Both Turkey and the Kurds show an ongoing interest in cultural genocide against ethnic minorities.

There is a choice. Shall one make ‘never again’ mean “We’ll do anything against anyone in order that no one may do to us what was done”, or shall one strive for a world in which never again shall a people, any people, be destroyed because of their faith, their ethnicity, their language, the color of their skin…  The choice confronts ALL of us, Jew and Gentile, Kurd and Chaldean, Abo and Aussie, Cherokee and Anglo-American… 

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

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By Tony Wicher, May 14, 2007 at 11:21 am Link to this comment

Reply to #69835 by PatrickHenry on 5/14 at 4:14 am

“Alot of political hay is made with the mere mention of “the holocaust” infering special status and laws, exemption from human rights because someones ancestors died in it is not right either.”


PH,

Have you ever read Norman Finkelstein? He is one of the finest scholars in the country, right up there with Noam Chomsky. He is brilliant and rock solid.  He has written two books that deal with this subject, “The Holocaust Industry” and “Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History”. I highly recommend them. You can also check Finkelstein out at:

          http://www.normanfinkelstein.com.

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By PatrickHenry, May 14, 2007 at 5:14 am Link to this comment

Persons who were abused as children typically grow up to abuse their children.

There are many other races, religions and ethnic minorities which have suffered as much as the jews and now at the hands of the jews.

While 6 million jews were tragically killed in the holocaust, little mention is made of the 20 million non jews, i.e. Russians, Poles, gypsies.

Throughout the millenia, all people, races and cultures have suffered at the hands of others.  In my lifetime its been the Cambodians and Ugandians, the Ethiopians and the Serb/Croations to name a few.

Alot of political hay is made with the mere mention of “the holocaust” infering special status and laws, exemption from human rights because someones ancestors died in it is not right either.

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By Tony Wicher, May 13, 2007 at 11:26 pm Link to this comment

Hey, Hondo, it’s been more than sixty years. You are stepping on the Palestinians already. Time to rejoin the human race, don’t you think?

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By Tony Wicher, May 13, 2007 at 4:29 pm Link to this comment

Reply to #69640 by Hondo on 5/12 at 9:26 pm

You hate people very easily, don’t you? That is because the trauma of the Holocaust in your past is making you afraid it will happen again. So what do you do, but go around with a chip on your shoulder. It’s natural, it’s what people who have been traumatized do, but unfortunately it’s self-destructive. Keep it up, and of course people will start hating you. That’s how it works. That is what is happening now.

Get over it.

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By Hondo, May 12, 2007 at 10:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony, I don’t think I have ever read a more ignorant, more hateful comment on this site than your latest comment. Do you truly believe that Jews just need to “get over” the Holocaust? Do you really believe that their inability to “get over” the murder of 6 million Jews will cause it to happen again? That’s just like saying that a child’s inability to just “get over” being molested will cause him to be molested again. Or that a woman’s inability to just “get over” being raped will cause her to be raped again. Or that the African-American’s inability to just “get over” that slavery thing will just cause slavery to happen again.
Truly, there is no one on this Earth quite as hateful or ignorant as a liberal! Thanks, Tony, for the teachable moment!

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By Righty, May 12, 2007 at 7:24 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Now Tony Wicher predicts that the Jews will suffer another Holocaust at the hands of the world because they do not fall in line with his thinkings.
Everything Tony says just supports my contention that he is a Jew HATER and someone who needs to be watched and his opinions ignored. He is a liar in reference to his wish to have peace between Jews & Muslims and really only seeks the destruction of Israel. He also rants about Jews in America, who do not support his view, and believes that they will be the cause of their own destruction.
Nazi is the only word that describes this bastard’s views.
Screw you Tony boy and may you suffer the same fate you predict for Israel and the Jewish people.
NEVER AGAIN, NEVER AGAIN, NEVER AGAIN !

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By Robert, May 11, 2007 at 1:39 pm Link to this comment

Hey Tony…don’t let this “IDF JOE” get under your skin. I am appalled at the hatred & fanatic zionist comment.

Hang in there Tony. You are a caring human being and one who deeply cares for humanity on this earth.

All the best.

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By Tony Wicher, May 11, 2007 at 12:31 pm Link to this comment

Reply #69317 by PatrickHenry on 5/11 at 3:52 am

The sad thing is that this type of hate and fear is going to cause the very thing Jews are afraid of. When they say “Never again!”, what this really means is that they are unable to get beyond the shock of the Holocaust, and their inablility to get over it will ultimately make it happen again. Freud calls it “the compulsion to repeat” the traumatic experience. What they cannot forget will happen again. This is so tragic.

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By PatrickHenry, May 11, 2007 at 4:52 am Link to this comment

Gee Tony, I don’t think G.I.Joe likes you very much.

I don’t think “Joe” favors Carters book.

So much for the Jewish (ADL) position on “hate speech”.

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By G.I. JOE, May 10, 2007 at 7:29 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Fuck you Wicker:
You call on all Jews to disassociate themselves from Israel.
Who the hell are you to make such a request?
And if Jews don’t, will you round them up and send them to gas chambers?
It is fucking asshole Jew HATERS like you that need to be put away for good. You are one of those disgusting beings that hold Jews accountable for all that is evil in this world. They must fall into line or be eliminated if they don’t.
You are scum and that is why I am addressing you in this foul language. You deserve no better and hope you suffer great distress and eventual death in the near future.
That is a prayer I hope comes true.

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By PatrickHenry, May 9, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Mr. Wicher,

Yes sir I do support HR333.

I support cutting off funding for Iraq operations.

I endorse Paul, Kucinich and Gravel as worthy to be candidates for President and could vote for any of them.  I like Gravel’s position on term limits.

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By Tony Wicher, May 9, 2007 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

Reply to comment#69044 by PatrickHenry on 5/09 at 3:15 pm

Hey there, PH my friend. Somewhat off the topic, but just out of curiosity, do you support the impeachment of Bush-Cheney. I want them tried for crimes of state by the Senate before the International Criminal Court does it. That way the American people will still be able to hold up their heads again in the eyes of the world. If these rats are allowed to finish out their terms and slink off into the night, what does that say about us?  We must rise in defense of our Constitution. We must show the world that democracy still means something in this county.

I advocate that all Americans call and email their their congressment to voice support for HR 333, the resolution to impeach Richard B. Cheney.

This Iraq war does have an Israel connection. It is true that Israel has many influential Jewish supporters in this country and that they work though AIPAC, the ADL, etc. to influence U.S. policy in ways favorable to Israel. This sympathy of American Jews towards Israel is understandable, but it is not rational and not good for Americans or even Israelis because it enables their immoral behavior. I therefore call on all American Jews to go on record by signing a statement dissociating themselves from Israel’s current apartheid, anti-democratic government.

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By PatrickHenry, May 9, 2007 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment

I see the same old knuckleheads are still at this post.  Sort of an Arab/Israeli blog war which has detracted greatly from what the issue was, Carter and his critique of Israeli politics.

I for one want Israel out of U.S. politics by way of AIPAC registering as a foreign agent with its minions of sub-lobbys.  I want the US government to shed itself of dual nationals i.e. Perle, Feith, Dov Zakim and the rest of the neo-morons who have gotten us in this mess in Iraq.

Finally I want a formal apology for the attack on the USS Liberty from Israel and a more independent investigation of 9/11 bringing in all information concerning the movement of Israeli nationals and their supposed foreknowledge of events.

Alot is comming out now about JFK and the obvious hand Johnson had in his death with those polititians involved still around today.  9/11 smells like the same rat and I don’t want to wait 40+ years to find out we’ve all been spoon fed bullshit once again.

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By Bob Griffin, May 9, 2007 at 2:00 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Fadel,

The passage in Matthew doesn’t refer to the Jews in general, but rather to the scribes and the Pharisees. The scribes were a sort of intellectual class, while the Pharisees were a specifically religious sect of about the same class standing as the scribes.  Both groups were literate, and both groups apparently looked down on the average Jew (the average Jew at that time, like the average Roman, being mostly illiterate). Most of the condemnation of the scribes and Pharisees derives from this despite for common folk, and the actions which flowed from it; at least that is what the context indicates.

By the way, Rabbi Hillel and his grandson Rabban Gamaliel were known as more open to people, and not nearly as narrow in their teachings as various others of their contemporaries.

As to the speech or prophecy against Jerusalem, I would look at it in historic context.  If we attribute it to Jesus himself, it is perhaps a reaction to the general rejection or misunderstanding of the Jewish community.  If on the other hand it was composed in and by the early Christian community, the immediate background might be a composite of the recent destruction of Jerusalem by Titus and the increasing rejection of the Christians by the rest of the Jewish community.  Rabbi Tarphon, who flourished in the late 1st through early 2nd century, was apparently radically outspokenly anti-Christian.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

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By Righty, May 7, 2007 at 10:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Do you see how Fadel Abdullah uses Jewish sources to support his anti-Jewish hate propaganda.
Yes, he wants the world to believe that the Jews hate themselves and truly believe that they are the cause of evil in the world.
This bastard uses the free press in Israel to support his anti-Jewish position.
Go to any country in the world who is a democracy and has a free press. You can always find some news stations and articles that are against the policies of that particular country. That is what happens in a free society. Now Fadel knows this but uses these sources to prove Jews are hateful of themselves and their own country the state of Israel. This bastard comes from an Islamic society which controls free speech and free press. He only presents the Islamic government’s viewpoint. He is a believer in the “big lie”. If you say it enough times it becomes the truth.
That is why he is a spammer. He just keeps that propaganda coming. On and on with the anti-Jewish hate articles. Nothing good about Jews only bad.
I guess his people are angels and do no wrong? No articles about Arab Muslim oppression and hate of anyone who does not believe in Islam and its prophet Mohammad. Yes, Abdullah is a liar and distorts the truth. He is true evil and will in the end suffer due to his own hate and lies. Praise to Allah.
The only thing Jews got from being pacifists were suffering & being murdered at the hands of others.
Zionism is necessary for the survival of Jews in a world of 3 billion Muslims & Christians who have murdered and oppressed them over the last 2,000 years.
Screw you Abdullah.

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By Fadel Abdallah, May 4, 2007 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment

In the NIV Study Bible, New International Version, Zondervan Publishing House, Michigan, 1985; Matthew: 23:15, page 1477, I read the following:

“You snakes! You brood of vipers! How would you escape being condemned to hell?! Therefore, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flag in your synagogues and purse from town to town…”

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you! How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.”
=======================================
In this quoted passage of the Christian Bible, it’s obvious that God is speaking and condemning the Jews in the strongest possible language. If I were a Jew I would be greatly offended and do my best to censor or have this removed from the Bible! However, I am neither a Jew nor a Christian, and I am wondering what kind of reaction a Jew or a Christian would have upon reading this passage. I know there are many passionate Christians, Jews and even atheists on this thread, and I am deadly curious to know what’s your take or comment on this. Any comments would be appreciated for I need this to do some research.

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By Tony Wicher, May 4, 2007 at 5:52 pm Link to this comment

Fadel said:

Well, Mad As Hell, I am not surprised that in your Zionist fanatic and screwed up mentality you have the audacity to attribute to people what they don’t say. This talk about “Jews are inherently evil” and that I “want EVERY Jew in the world killed” are your own words and the figment of your sick and insecure imagination, and your evil desire to mark me up as a Jew hater and anti-Semitic.

Now mark my words! I cannot be anti-Semitic because I am possibly more pure Semitic than yourself. I actually believe that there are so many good and noble Jews, in whom I place a great hope in helping the Palestinians get justice, while, at the same time, helping rescue Jews and Judaism from evil fanatic Zionists like you. In fact, I have a good number of close Jewish friends who are noble, sincere and the best human beings. Those are Jews I am willing to defend with my own life if they face persecution or harm. In doing this, I will be acting in the best tradition of my noble coreligionists, such as Saladin and many others before and after him who rescued the Jews from the persecution of the Inquisition, the Crusaders and lately the Jewish survivors of the Nazis. There is well-documented history about this, but I know you’re no reader seeking enlightenment to suggest references for you.

Moreover, your insistence on equating fanatic Zionism with Judaism is another indication that you’re ill informed and have a screwed up mentality. You should know by now that there are more Jews than you can count who are against Zionism as a racist and secular colonialist enterprise.

By way of conclusion, it’s not Jews or Judaism; it’s fanatic Zionism, stupid!

=======================

Fadel,

Damn right! The problem begins with Zionism, not Judaism. Non-Zionist Jews are among the finest people in the world and always have been. The problem began when certain Jews developed an ideology which said that Jews would always be persecuted unless they had a national state of their own. The persecution was real and getting worse, so their idea had some plausibility. Then they negotiated with the British and got the Balfour Delaration. Jews began to migrate there and tensions in Palestine from this immigration became steadily worse. Then the Holocaust convinced millions of surviving Jews that the Zionists were right, and they stampeded to Palestine. Now they are sitting there on top of the Palestinians. The Palestinians hate their guts and who can blame them? What a mess!The problem is that a Jewish state cannot really be a democracy. Citizenship in a democracy cannot depend on race, creed, color or national origen. This is something you don’t think about when you are running away from Hitler. It is sixty years later, and past time to re-think their position.

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By Thomas, May 4, 2007 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Fadel Abdullah:
You can’t even communicate truthfully in one language. Why do you think 5 of them will do the trick?
The only language your kind understands is the brute force that will get rid of those like yourself who are wolves in sheep’s clothing. Only through the defeat of the “Big Lie”, that the Jew is the cause of evil, can your kind be brought down.

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By Fadel Abdallah, May 3, 2007 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

Kindly read these words by Rachel Corrie (the 23-year-old American peace activist who was crushed to death by a bulldozer paid for by US taxpayers as she tried to prevent the Israeli army from destroying homes in the Gaza Strip) - she tells us in her own words - through her emails to her mother - why she was in Gaza, protecting Palestinian families from the Israeli army that was bulldozing their homes and green houses:

“Love you. Really miss you. I have bad nightmares about tanks and bulldozers outside our house and you and me inside…. I am really scared for the people here. Yesterday, I watched a father lead his two tiny children, holding his hands, out into the sight of tanks and a sniper tower and bulldozers and Jeeps because he thought his house was going to be exploded….This is in the area where Sunday about 150 men were rounded up and contained outside the settlement with gunfire over their heads and around them, while tanks and bulldozers destroyed 25 greenhouses - the livelihoods for 300 people….I was terrified to think that this man felt it was less of a risk to walk out in view of the tanks with his kids than to stay in his house. I was really scared that they were all going to be shot and I tried to stand between them and the tank. This happens every day, but just this father walking out with his two little kids just looking very sad, just happened to get my attention more at this particular moment”, probably because I felt it was our translation problems that made him leave.”

- Rachel Corrie

Source: Guardian

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By Fadel Abdallah, May 2, 2007 at 1:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

#67213 by Mad As Hell on 4/29 at 7:31 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

Mad As Hell (aka: Screwed up as Hell) wrote:
============
“Fadel:
As you continue to get closer and closer to your key point, that ALL Jews are inherently evil, I keep waiting for you to demand that the world EXTERMINATE all Jews and finish the job Hitler started.  It is the ONLY logical inference from all your arguments and posts—that you want EVERY Jew in the world killed.”
==================================   
Well, Mad As Hell, I am not surprised that in your Zionist fanatic and screwed up mentality you have the audacity to attribute to people what they don’t say. This talk about “Jews are inherently evil” and that I “want EVERY Jew in the world killed” are your own words and the figment of your sick and insecure imagination, and your evil desire to mark me up as a Jew hater and anti-Semitic.

Now mark my words! I cannot be anti-Semitic because I am possibly more pure Semitic than yourself. I actually believe that there are so many good and noble Jews, in whom I place a great hope in helping the Palestinians get justice, while, at the same time, helping rescue Jews and Judaism from evil fanatic Zionists like you. In fact, I have a good number of close Jewish friends who are noble, sincere and the best human beings. Those are Jews I am willing to defend with my own life if they face persecution or harm. In doing this, I will be acting in the best tradition of my noble coreligionists, such as Saladin and many others before and after him who rescued the Jews from the persecution of the Inquisition, the Crusaders and lately the Jewish survivors of the Nazis. There is well-documented history about this, but I know you’re no reader seeking enlightenment to suggest references for you.
 
Moreover, your insistence on equating fanatic Zionism with Judaism is another indication that you’re ill informed and have a screwed up mentality. You should know by now that there are more Jews than you can count who are against Zionism as a racist and secular colonialist enterprise.

By way of conclusion, it’s not Jews or Judaism; it’s fanatic Zionism, stupid!

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By Robert, May 1, 2007 at 6:41 am Link to this comment

Hey Fadel…Its that same ole zionist attack dogs, but under different names.

Its the same synchronized fanatic zionist comments on this forum/thread & others. These guys are NO strangers to each other. Just take a look at the time that each comment was posted. Just a few minutes apart. ITS THAT FAMILIAR AIPAC/ISRAEL “INTERNET MEGAPHONE”!

The TRUTH hurts these ill willed zionists. Their loyalty is for Israel’s Apartheid policies. They don’t care about other people, universal Human Rights, equality and justice for all; they ONLY care if its ONLY good for Israel and/or Jews.

As for that “MFH” fellow, he keeps threatening TRUTHDIG with his tantrums about anti-semitism and his permanent boycott and last visit on TRUTHDIG.

Oh what a great loss its going to be for humanity!

DEMOCRACY, JUSTICE, HUMAN RIGHTS & EQUALITY FOR ALL PEOPLE ARE THE FOUNDATION FOR PEACE IN PALESTINE/ISRAEL.

Here is a recent link on the main topic of this thread:


“The Looming Challenges”

“Palestine and Peace”

By Hanan Ashrawi   (04/28/2007)

 

http://www.counterpunch.org/ashrawi04282007.html

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 30, 2007 at 9:27 pm Link to this comment

To: Mad As Hell,“Jehovah” be Praised, Johnny, George and Righty:

While I continue to post hard facts, mostly from Jewish sources, you continue to dig out all the filth of the English dictionary thinking this would hurt me. In fact, I carry these curses as badges of honor, because they’re proof that I really managed to get under your thick skins. I am actually collecting and saving these curses hopefully to publish them in a future book.

Just for your knowledge, I can equally curse and insult you in five languages if I were to descend down to your lowly levels.

An Arabic proverb speaks to your types by saying:

“Each earthen-pot oozes the liquid it contains.”

I don’t blame you for displaying openly the types of miserable creators that you’re. I just feel so sorry for the sickness of your hearts and souls!

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By Mad As Hell, April 29, 2007 at 8:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Fadel:
As you continue to get closer and closer to your key point, that ALL Jews are inherently evil, I keep waiting for you to demand that the world EXTERMINATE all Jews and finish the job Hitler started.  It is the ONLY logical inference from all your arguments and posts—that you want EVERY Jew in the world killed.

I have NO idea why Truthdig allows such pure anti-Semites like you to post.

This is my last post and visit to Truthdig until they stop allowing such garbage.  You anti-semites can rule here as you taint a great man like Jimmy Carter with your hatred and filth.

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By Allah Be Praised, April 29, 2007 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Abdullah, Fadel:

What an asshole. You are scum and blame Jews for all the evil in this world. You are just typical Jew hating scum. No one really wants to hear your propaganda. May Allah the merciful & just send your soul to eternal damnation & suffering.
May the pigs inhabit your kitchen and may your body be left to rot in the desert for the vultures to feed upon.

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By Johnny, April 29, 2007 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Fadel:
Your Muslim Arab colors truly show through. According to you the Jews are the source of evil in this world. You are a moron and I now know why your people are so dumb, they actually believe those lies they are being told by their dictatorial theocratic Islamic regimes.

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By George, April 29, 2007 at 1:22 pm Link to this comment
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Fadel Abdullah:
Your comments blame Jews for all the evil in the world. It is more likely that your kind ARE THE ACTUAL CAUSE FOR THIS EVIL. It is liars like yourself that distort the truth and cause the world to hate Jews. That is exactly what the Nazis did. But then there is no difference between you and them.
FUCK YOU.

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By Righty, April 29, 2007 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

LOOKS LIKE FADEL ABDULLAH IS SPAMMING AGAIN.
HE IS JUST ANOTHER PROPAGANDA MINISTER OF ANTI-JEWISH HATE.
JUST IGNORE HIM.

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 28, 2007 at 4:09 pm Link to this comment

Read the following short articles from different sources and reach your own enlightened conclusions!
=============================
5. Irish Peace Laureate Shot By Israeli Troops at Non-Violent Protest - Why Isn’t This News?
By Robert Naiman (Source: MyDD)

Those who blame the Palestinian people for their fate, attributing it to Palestinian violence, and faulting the Palestinians for not emulating Gandhi, King, or Mandela (whose role in the “armed struggle” is always conveniently elided for the purpose of this comparison) should periodically ask themselves, when Palestinians do engage in nonviolent protest, and are subjected to brutal repression as a result, how come the mainstream U.S. media don’t pay any attention?

Wouldn’t this be a precondition for a successful nonviolent protest strategy? That people find out about it? Imagine if U.S. news organizations had not reported on lunch counter sit-ins in the South, Freedom Rides, or the Montgomery bus boycott - and the repression that resulted. What if no-one reported on the deaths of Evers, Goodman, Schwerner, Chaney. Would these protests have been as effective?

That U.S. political, diplomatic, and financial support for the Israeli government’s policies in the West Bank provide crucial support for these policies should be beyond debate. Don’t the American people have a right to know what’s going on?

6. Prisoners in Israel
By MWC NEWS

Tamimi, 46, was jailed in 1993 for killing an Israeli settler in the West Bank. His own background is also bloody – two of his brothers were killed by Israeli troops, as well as his wife’s father and sister.

His case has sparked controversy in Israel, where a judge and a member of the Israeli Knesset have opposed giving him the US $90,000 operation because he was convicted of killing an Israeli.

Overall, the 10,000 Palestinian prisoners held in Israel are not significantly discriminated against when it comes to medical care because all prisoners in Israel receive poor treatment regardless of background, claims NGO Physicians for Human Rights, Israel (PHR).

7. What cease-fire?
By Amira Hass (Source: Ha’aretz)

“Cease-fire” is yet another hollow term, showing that the Palestinian representatives - elected or not, Hamas or Fatah or Palestine Liberation Organization-Tunis, from Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas to the last spokesman of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ “Brigades” - keep falling into the traps set for them by the politics of Israeli occupation.

On the Saturday and Sunday before the Palestinians “broke the cease-fire,” Israel Defense Forces soldiers killed nine Palestinians. Among them was a 17-year-old girl, a 15-year-old boy and a policeman who was on the roof of his house and was not involved in any “battle.”

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 28, 2007 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment

Read the following short articles from different sources and reach your own enlightened conclusions!

3. Let Taibeh go to Palestine
By Gilad Sharon (Source: Ha’aretz)

Change the citizenship of Israel’s Arabs

On the issue of a Jewish state versus a state of all its citizens, it must be said without embarrassment and without apology: Of course we want to live in a democratic country, but at the same time we want to live in a Jewish country. Israel was not established to bring a democratic regime to a benighted region. Israel was established as a national home for the Jewish people.

Representatives of the Arab sector and Knesset members from the Arab parties are discriminated against; this is a fact. It is possible to try to whitewash this. It is possible to appoint someone as deputy Knesset speaker, or bring a representative into the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, but then it is impossible to talk about security matters, and all the reports are moved to the subcommittees.

Therefore, as I see it, the goal has to be a significant Jewish majority among the citizens of Israel, forever. Minorities have to be totally loyal to the state, to fulfill all the obligations and enjoy all the rights, like the Druze, some of the Bedouins and the Circassians. An example of action in this direction is changing the citizenship of the Arabs of Umm al Fahm, Taibeh, Jaljulya, Kafr Bara and so on - as far as and including Kafr Qasem. After all, there is no real reason why Qalqilyah and Tul Karm should be Palestinian and Taibeh Israeli. This is a mistake and nothing more.

4. U.S. eyes potential $65 million bomb sale to Israel
By Jim Wolf (Source: Reuters)

What happened to Peace?

The Bush administration announced on Friday what would be the first officially disclosed sale of U.S. military equipment to Israel since the end of Israel’s armed conflict with Lebanon in 2006.

In a notice to Congress, the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency said Israel had requested as many as 3,500 MK-84 “general purpose” bombs, spares and repair parts plus U.S. government technical assistance in a deal worth up to $65 million if all options are exercised.

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 28, 2007 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

Read the following short articles from different news sources and get an education that will make you see the light!
========================================
1. Will I hang the flag?
By Gideon Levy (Source: Ha’aretz)

There is a flagholder installed in my garden. The previous residents used it to fly the flag of their favorite soccer team. Since they left, the holder has remained orphaned. During my childhood, there was no question about it: My parents would take the national flag out of the cupboard each year, proudly display it on the balcony, and it would drown in the street’s sea of blue and white. I would look with excitement at our decorated balcony: I was proud of the flag…

I clearly remember when I stopped hanging the flag. It was after I saw the settlers dashing through Palestinian villages, fearsome flags waving from their cars to confront and provoke the residents of the land they had invaded. I said to myself that a flag intended for provocation and confrontation is not my flag. I later saw the flag as a land marker, establishing ownership that is not ours. In every settlement and outpost they hung the flag that was my flag as well to “establish facts on the ground.”

2. When an Anti-Semite is Not an Anti-Semite
By Arthur Neslen (Source: CounterPunch)

What do Einstein, Mahatma Ghandi, Ehud Olmert and, yes, me all have in common? We could each be censured for racism according to the European Union Monitoring Centre’s ‘working definition of anti-Semitism’ which was last week adopted by the UK’s National Union of Students as official policy.

This definition has lately been sweeping all before it, taking endorsements everywhere from the All Party Parliamentary Report on anti-Semitism to the US state department’s special envoy for combating anti-Semitism. The British government has pledged to re-examine its own definition of anti-Semitism if the EUMC’s successor body, the Fundamental Rights Agency, ratifies the new lingua franca…

By the new standard though, it might be an anti-Semitic ‘double standard’ to single him out for criticism when the hateful words of the former Indian leader, Mahatma Ghandi, are still being taught in British schools. In 1938, Ghandi said he believed that ‘Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French.’ Thus might he disbar himself from speaking at a British college today.

Einstein though would really bomb. After the Deir Yassin massacre that killed more than 250 Palestinian civilians in 1948, he signed a letter to the New York Times describing the Herut Party (a.k.a Likud) as ‘closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties’. Its then-leader (and Israel’s future prime minister) Menachem Begin, represented ‘fascist elements’ in Israel, and his party had ‘openly preached the doctrine of the fascist state’. So Einstein, would flunk the EUMC’s ‘comparing Israeli policy to the Nazis’ test.

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 28, 2007 at 8:56 am Link to this comment

If you think you heard it all about the evil Israeli connection to all the evil in the world just listen to this:
   
A report I just heard on Chicago Public Radio about the Guantanamo prisoners reveals that one of the torture techniques interrogators use against the Muslim detainees is to strip them naked and drape them up with the Israeli flag, forcing them to kiss the cross, forcing them to drink their own urine, besides other unheard of methods of torture. But the most interesting of all these is to use of the Israeli flag as a weapon of torture!

Another piece of information from free independent sources indicate that between 8 thousand and 10 thousand Israeli Mossad agents entered Iraq with the American occupying army. They are the ones mostly planning suicide bombing in Sunni and Shia areas to inflame the passions and the civil war among Iraqis.

American military in the service of Israel and evil Israelis in the service of U.S. military will leave us with a legacy which will be the cause for a thousand year hatred between these two in their unholy alliance and the Arab and Muslim world!

The Israeli apartheid wall was built with American taxpayers’ money and with the full blessing of Bush and his gang. In light of this it’s almost naive of ask evil Bush to tear down this wall, as two other pieces on Truthdig ask. It is also inappropriate to address Bush as “Mr. Bush”; he should be addressed as, “Evil, Liar Bush” instead.

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 23, 2007 at 9:58 pm Link to this comment

#65957 by Righty on 4/23 at 7:47 pm
(Unregistered commenter)

I really got under your skin, kido! Enjoy your eternal Hell!

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By Righty, April 23, 2007 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Fadel:
You are not high in the sky but down in the mud.
You are an anti-Jewish scum bag who would have turned Jews into the Nazis with a smile.
You are without merit and a liar. You claim to be a peace loving Muslim but that also is a lie.
You are a disgrace in the eyes of G-d and man and you will face your maker when you die. It is then you will realize that 72 virgins are not awaiting you and that Allah will not be greeting you. Only the Hellfire of your own lies await your soul for all eternity.

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 23, 2007 at 2:38 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To: #65616 by Righty on 4/21 at 9:50 pm

An Arabic proverb speaks to your filthy types when it says:

“Clouds high in the sky are not harmed by the barking of dogs!”

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By Tony Wicher, April 22, 2007 at 6:20 pm Link to this comment

Fadel,

You are right. You can find some of the best articles against Zionism in Haaretz. That does mean that you do have to give Israel that much credit - they do allow such articles to be published, and that means they do respect freedom of speech. They do have a “Jews-only” democracy; now if we could only persuade them to get rid of the “Jews only” part, and include everyone!
The most hopeful thing I have read lately is this article from the Nation online posted in my ODS:
posted April 17, 2007. Is Asmi Bishara the Mandela, the democratic leader Palestinians need?

        Israel’s Strategic Threat

by Neve Gordon

In early April the rumors about Dr. Azmi Bishara, the most famous Arab Knesset member, began circulating on the Internet: Bishara is afraid
to return to Israel; Bishara intends to resign from the Knesset; the Israeli Security Agency has decided to accuse Bishara of treason and espionage. The gag order preventing the publication of any information
about Bishara’s actions made the rumors all the more intriguing. What did Bishara, in fact, do?

Bishara, a Christian Palestinian citizen of Israel from Nazareth, established the National Democratic Assembly known as Balad in 1995 and became a Knesset member in 1996. Since then he has been interrogated several times by the Israeli Security Agency, and has
been charged and found not guilty twice: once for organizing visits to Syria for Israeli Arabs who wished to visit family members and a second time for speeches he gave in Syria and Israel praising Hezbollah’s resistance in southern Lebanon and Palestinian opposition in the occupied territories. His visit to Beirut following last year’s Lebanon war, alongside his claim that Israel was committing war crimes in Lebanon and carrying out genocide against Shiite Muslims, was, for many Israelis, yet another indication that Bishara has been using his
parliamentary immunity to harm Israel. Many Jewish members of the Knesset have argued for years that Bishara is a fifth column and that Israeli democracy has a right and indeed an obligation to defend
itself against the Bishara threat.

(continued below)

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By Tony Wicher, April 22, 2007 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

The Nation article, continued from above

But what, one might ask, are Bishara’s new offenses? It is, after all, highly unlikely that he is a spy on the payroll of a foreign entity.  And while one may not like his uncompromising opposition to Israeli
and American regional policies and his admiration for Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah’s militancy and strategic intelligence, expressing such views does not in and of itself jeopardize Israel’s existence. Bishara, it seems, is a threat not because of any particular action or
statement but because he has become a symbol of a new kind of opposition within Israel.

During the past few months, political activists and members of the Palestinian intellectual elite within Israel, all of whom are Israeli
citizens, have drafted four documents that articulate how they conceive the state’s future. The underlying assumption of all of these documents is that as long as Israel is defined as a Jewish state, its laws will always fall short of basic democratic principles and, more particularly, the right of all its citizens to full equality.

The authors of the documentcalled “The Democratic Constitution” maintain that the Arab citizens of Israel should be considered a “homeland minority” with national rights. The idea is to transform
> Israel into a bilingual and multicultural democracy for all its citizens, rather than a Jewish democracy, which they argue is an oxymoron. Such transformation would inevitably mean changing the laws of citizenship and immigration so that citizenship would no longer be granted automatically to any Jew wishing to immigrate but rather to
anyone born within Israel’s territory or whose parent or spouse is a citizen, or to people persecuted due to their political beliefs.

Not long after the documents’ publication, Israel’s second-largest newspaper, Ma’ariv, reported a meeting between the head of the security agency, Yuval Diskin, and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. During
> the meeting Diskin warned Olmert that the radicalization of Israel’s Arab citizens constitutes a “strategic threat to the state’s existence.” Diskin added that “the proliferation of the visionary
documents published by the different Arab elites in Israel is particularly worrisome, [since] the documents are united by their conception of Israel as a state for all its citizens and not a Jewish
state.” The head of the security services concluded that “the separatist and subversive patterns represented by the elites might engender a new direction and mobilize the masses.”

Balad sent a letter protesting Diskin’s assertions, arguing that legitimate political activity whose aim is to change the state’s character should not be considered subversive or dangerous. According
to Ha’aretz, the Israeli Security Agency replied that it “would foil the activity of anyone seeking to harm Israel’s Jewish or democratic character, even if that activity was carried out by legal means.”

Diskin’s words are telling. He admits not only that anyone who strives to alter the Jewish character of the state is considered an enemy and will be treated as such but that the secret service has no respect for democratic practices and procedures. It is precisely within the context of the four historic documents that one should understand the recent accusations against Bishara. More than anything else, Bishara constitutes a symbolic threat, since he personifies the recent demand of the Palestinian elite to transform Israel from a Jewish democracy
to a democracy for all its citizens.

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By Righty, April 21, 2007 at 10:50 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Fadel Abdallah:
We have read your prior anti-Jewish rantings. You are a liar and another propaganda minister, like Federer, for the arab league and other anti-Jewish organizations in this world.
Jews are not rounding up Muslim Arabs and leading them to gas chambers. The Muslims Arabs on the West Bank and in Gaza are free to leave anytime they want. Their worst enemy is their own people who call themselves their leaders, Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and other terrorist groups who want to be in control of their futures.
Screw scum like you who use democratic news sources in Israel to support your anti-Jewish comments.
Those sources you use are writers who are free to publish their comments in the Israeli free press.
They are not truth but opinions of individuals.
That is something a person like you cannot begin to understand.
Your people have no free press. Your people live under oppression by your Islamic regimes and have no free speech. Yet you have the nerve to attack Israel who allows Arab Israelis more freedom and higher standards of living than they would have in Arab countries. I do not see Israeli Arabs leaving Israel to live in Islamic countries.
You are scum pal and I can smell your stink from 10,000 miles away.

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 21, 2007 at 10:38 am Link to this comment

A good reading on how Israel and the Zionists use the tragic event of the Holocaust as a political asset to justify their own Holocaust against the Palestinians! I strongly believe that Ha’aretz better serves the Palestinian cause than all Arabs and Muslims combined. It must be the ultimate source of choice for all truth and peace seekers.
================================
The Holocaust as political asset
By Amira Hass (Source: Ha’aretz)

Turning the Holocaust into a political asset serves Israel primarily in its fight against the Palestinians. When the Holocaust is on one side of the scale, along with the guilty (and rightly so) conscience of the West, the dispossession of the Palestinian people from their homeland in 1948 is minimized and blurred.

The phrase “security for the Jews” has been consecrated as an exclusive synonym for “the lessons of the Holocaust.” It is what allows Israel to systematically discriminate against its Arab citizens. For 40 years, “security” has been justifying control of the West Bank and Gaza and of subjects who have been dispossessed of their rights living alongside Jewish residents, Israeli citizens laden with privileges.

Security serves the creation of a regime of separation and discrimination on an ethnic basis, Israeli style, under the auspices of “peace talks” that go on forever. Turning the Holocaust into an asset allows Israel to present all the methods of the Palestinian struggle (even the unarmed ones) as another link in the anti-Semitic chain whose culmination is Auschwitz. Israel provides itself with the license to come up with more kinds of fences, walls and military guard towers around Palestinian enclaves.

Separating the genocide of the Jewish people from the historical context of Nazism and from its aims of murder and subjugation, and its separation from the series of genocides perpetrated by the white man outside of Europe, has created a hierarchy of victims, at whose head we stand. Holocaust and anti-Semitism researchers fumble for words when in Hebron the state carries out ethnic cleansing via its emissaries, the settlers, and ignore the enclaves and regime of separation it is setting up. Whoever criticizes Israel’s policies toward the Palestinians is denounced as an anti-Semite, if not a Holocaust denier. Absurdly, the delegitimization of any criticism of Israel only makes it harder to refute the futile equations that are being made between the Nazi murder machine and the Israeli regime of discrimination and occupation.

The institutional abandonment of the survivors is rightly denounced across the board. The transformation of the Holocaust into a political asset for use in the struggle against the Palestinians feed on those same stores of official cynicism, but it is part of the consensus.

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By Robert, April 18, 2007 at 12:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

LOOK AT THE CHILDREN OF PALESTINE & ISRAEL’S “BRUTAL” IDF:


http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com

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By Lefty, April 17, 2007 at 2:17 am Link to this comment
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Re: #63138 by Peter on 4/10 at 9:22 am
(Unregistered commenter)

“The only thing Jews got from being pacifists were being oppressed and murdered by the Christian & Muslim worlds. Zionism was a necessity for Jews to free themselves from being dominated by these groups of people which number around 3 billion today.
This Zionism makes the world uncomfortable. These nations have finally realized that they are not going to get away with murdering Jews any longer.
Zionism was and will always be a matter of self preservation for the Jewish people.”
—————————————————————————
Yes, the reaction of the former European/Arab oppressors is predictable.  They don’t like having a nuclear missile pointing at their noses.  Tough shit!  Imagine how these same bone heads would dread the news of a Black African Nation acquiring nuclear weapon capability! Wooops! LMAO!

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By Robert, April 11, 2007 at 8:23 am Link to this comment
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“Deir Yassin Remembered”

By: Daniel A. McGowan
The Link - Volume 29, Issue 4


“Early in the morning of Friday, April 9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. It was several weeks before the end of the British Mandate. The village lay outside the area that the United Nations recommended be included in a future Jewish State.”

“By noon over 200 people, half of them women and children, had been systematically murdered. Four commandos died at the hands of resisting Palestinians using old Mausers and muskets. Twenty-five male villagers were loaded into trucks, paraded through the Zakhron Yosef quarter in Jerusalem, and then taken to a stone quarry along the road between Givat Shaul and Deir Yassin and shot to death. The remaining residents driven to Arab East Jerusalem.”

“The final body count of 254 was reported by the New York Times on April 13, a day after they were finally buried. By then the leaders of the Haganah had distanced themselves from having participated in the attack and issued a statement denouncing the dissidents of Irgun and the Stern gang, just as they had after the attack on the King David Hotel in July, 1946.”

“Nor was the massacre simply “a male thing.” Palestinian women and children brutally massacred and Jewish women took part in the attack and the subsequent mopping up operations. Jacques de Reynier, a French Red Cross employee who arrived after the massacre, described the Irgunists and the Sternists as follows:

‘All are young men and women, including teenagers, armed to the teeth with pistols, machine guns, grenades, and large cutlasses, most of them covered with blood, in their hands. A young woman, beautiful but with eyes of a murderess, shows me her cutlass, still dripping with blood as she carries it around like a trophy. They are the ‘mopping up team,’ which probably goes about its business very conscientiously.4 ‘

Even Nathan Friedman-Yellin, successor to Stern Gang founder Yair Stern, condemned the “shocking” murder of women, termed the attack a “massacre,” and said is was “too cruel.” He complained that it was not authorized by the leadership and that it spoiled “our image” in the eyes of the Soviet Union. Others, like his Sternist rival, Yisrael Scheib (Eldad), and Menachem Begin insisted that without Deir Yassin “the state of Israel could never have been established.”

{Daniel A. McGowan is a Professor Emeritus at Hobart and William Smith Colleges and the current director of Deir Yassin Remembered, a group of Jews and Non-Jews working together to build a memorial at Deir Yassin on the west side of Jerusalem.}

***************************************************

For the rest of the TRUTH about Deir Yassin Remembered by Daniel McGowan (pages 1-7)...click on the link:

http://www.ameu.org/page.asp?iid=101&aid=143&pg=5

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By Peter, April 10, 2007 at 10:22 am Link to this comment
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The only thing Jews got from being pacifists were being oppressed and murdered by the Christian & Muslim worlds.
Zionism was a necessity for Jews to free themselves from being dominated by these groups of people which number around 3 billion today.
This Zionism makes the world uncomfortable. These nations have finally realized that they are not going to get away with murdering Jews any longer.
Zionism was and will always be a matter of self preservation for the Jewish people.

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By Mad As Hell, April 10, 2007 at 8:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Another Fadel Fantasy!

Here’s a very different, and well-documented examination of the events at Deir Yassin.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/deir_yassin.html

Note the details Arab propaganda omits, like Arab fighters were trying to shut the road between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and Deir Yassin was a strategic point on that road.  Or that there was heavy armed resistance that resulted in MOST of the Arab deaths there—not “massacred” but fighters dying in battle.  Or that numerous Arab fighters disguised themselves as women and hid among them to attack the Jews (Similar tactics using ambulances and other non-combatant items and people are still used today).  Or that when the fighters disguised as women, and the women they were among, refused to go to the safe area.  Or that ANY attrocities that may have been committed, were roundly condemned BY JEWS!

And finally, that Fadel, like Federer, sees this as justification for blowing up a pizza parlor full of children.  Fadel, let me give you a word of advice: You cannot claim the moral “high ground” by committing attrocities.

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By Fadel Abdallah, April 9, 2007 at 9:57 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

This Day in History! Lest We Forget!!

Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos (terrorists) of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin and the Stern Gang, attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish State; it had a peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and the mainstream Jewish defense force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover.

In all over 100 men, women, and children were systematically murdered. Fifty-three orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City, where they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony Hotel to her home, which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage.

This is another example of Israel’s planting the seeds of terrorism in the area! Now, once in a while they are made to have a taste of their own medicine!

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By Robert, April 8, 2007 at 10:28 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“ISRAEL DOESN’T WANT PEACE” - Haaretz - Israel News

By GIDEON LEVY

04/09/2007

“Israel makes a point of setting prerequisites and believes it has an exclusive right to do so. But, time and time again, Israel avoids the most basic prerequisite for any just peace - an end to the occupation. Of all the questions asked during his Passover interviews, no one bothered to ask Olmert why he didn’t react with excitement to the recent Arab initiatives, without preconditions? The answer: real estate. The real estate of the settlements.”

*****************************************************

Well…I must thank Gideon Levy for this article dated 4/9/2007.

My comment #62615 on 4/06/2007 echoed almost the same message and narrative.

Here is the link to rest of Gideon Levy’s article:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/846420.html

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By Robert, April 8, 2007 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“How Can Children of the Holocaust Do Such Things”

“A Jewish Plea”


By SARA ROY

April 7 / 8, 2007

“For my mother and father Judaism meant bearing witness, raging against injustice and refusing silence. It meant compassion, tolerance, and rescue. In the absence of these imperatives, they taught me, we cease to be Jews.

Many of the people, both Jewish and others, who writeabout Palestinians and Arabs fail to accept the fundamental humanity of the people they are writing about, a failing born of ignorance, fear and racism. Within the organized Jewish community especially, it has always been unacceptable to claim that Arabs, Palestinians especially, are like us, that they, too, possess an essential humanity and must be included within our moral boundaries, ceasing to be “a kind of solution,” a useful, hostile “other” to borrow from Edward Said. That any attempt at separation is artificial, an abstraction.”

“Why is it virtually mandatory among Jewish intellectuals to oppose racism, repression and injustice almost anywhere in the world and unacceptable—indeed, for some, an act of heresy—to oppose it when Israel is the oppressor, choosing concealment over exposure?”

“What are Jews now capable of resisting: tyranny? Oppression? Occupation? Injustice? We resist none of these things, no more.  For too many among us they are no longer but necessary and good-we cannot live, survive without them. What does that make us? We look at ourselves and what do we see: a non-Jew, a child, whose pain we inflict effortlessly, whose death is demanded and unquestioned, bearing validity and purpose.”
***************************************************

An outstanding article by Sara Roy and one that exposes her Judaism vs Zionism.

Here is the link to Sara Roy’s article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/roy04072007.html

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By Tony Wicher, April 7, 2007 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Reply to Robert

“What do the Palestinians have to defend themselves from this brutal nuclear powered regime?”

Nothing but God, my friend - and world opinion.

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By Federer, April 7, 2007 at 4:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

test: why am I getting “You are not authorized to perform this action” when I tried to post and haven’t received a reply to my registration?

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By Tony Wicher, April 7, 2007 at 11:57 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Righty,

I quit this thread mostly because you keep repeating the same things no matter what anyone else says, and I got tired of wasting my time. There have been many supporters of Zionism on this thread, including Mad as Hell and others, that were worth communicating with, but you are just a broken record.

Federer,

You really should check out the One Democratic State yahoo group. There are people there living in the West Bank and Gaza who are really advocating an ODS position and trying to form an opposition political party. I believe these people are in danger from Palestinian militants who regard ODS as traitors to their cause of “national liberation”, as well as Zionists who fear the possibility of ODS becoming popular far more than they fear the Palestinian militants. These people need all the help they can get. You have much valuable knowledge to offer. The group is at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/one-democratic-state/

Please send me your private email address and I will give you more particulars. My email address is:

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

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By Robert, April 7, 2007 at 12:22 am Link to this comment
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Palestine, Syria, Lebanon & the rest of the Arab states in the Middle-East will be willing to agree to a formal Peace Treaty with Israel, TODAY & EVERYDAY, if Israel agrees to withdraw back to the pre-June 1967 borders, which is only a 22% skeleton of Palestine.

Israel does NOT want to give any occupied Palestinian land. It continues to receive huge American aid & funds each year, $3-5 billion, continues to build new settlements & expand existing ones.

Israel is worried about all the aid that it gets from the American taxpayers. If there were a formal Peace Treaty with the Arab states, then Americans may start asking why should we continue to hand out all these billions of dollars to Israel?  If there is NO conflict, then may be cut those aid $$$ in half.

One may wonder if Israel just plainly benefits from the current stalemate of NO PEACE situation. They have all those stockpiles of “WDM’s” and the most sophisticated American made weapons. They control just about everything. From the U.S. Congress, Senate, GW & Cheney…etc…

What do the Palestinians have to defend themselves from this brutal nuclear powered regime?

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By Righty, April 6, 2007 at 12:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To This Forum:
These comments are going nowhere and have now become very repetitive & boring.
No one is getting any place debating on a subject which has become a one sided attack on Israel by a professional spammer named Federer.
There are also only 4 or 5 people actually making comments. Guess subject is not very important anyway. The whole situation over there is a religious conflict and nothing more. It will never end until the Islamic countries become a democracy and allow all people to worship as they please. 
Federer never came through with the objective polls I requested.
I am out of here.

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By Interesed in Politics, April 6, 2007 at 5:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It is amazing the length of time this thread has gone on.
Most threads on most blogs last no more than a week if that.
By their very nature controversial views are to be their basis controversial and have two sides.
However Mr. Carter seems to have a short term memory with many aspects to his presentations.
Take for example his views on the current Iraq debacle themselves.
Has he forgotten his experience with the Iranian crisis of the embassy takeover many years ago and the ill planned rescue attempt in the desert ?
Makes George Bush look like a trooper.
Has he forgetten that with his wonderful negotiations with North Korea that it led to North Korea not only producing and testing a nuclear bomb but being the primary irresponsible exporter of horrible nuclear and ballistic missile technologies and equipment to volatile regional customers.
All very deadly and serious with longer term repercussions.
In terms of Mr. Carter and his book and well as its marketing on talk shows one could say that he was bought and paid for by the Saudi Arabians.

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By Mad As Hell, April 5, 2007 at 9:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer: 
a few things:
1) I condemn Goldstein and his actions just as much as you do.  He’s a monster and not a martyr. He deserves to have his grave spat upon.

2) Goldstein is the ONLY “suicide bomber” to come out of Israel. The only one.  There were terrorist incidents against Jewish civilians many times before before him and after.  In case you forgot (conveniently, I suppose) Palestinians attacked, held hostage and MURDERED the Israeli Olympic wrestling team ALL the way back in 1972, in Munich—a third country trying to put its history of attrocities behind it.  They were a bunch of innocent athletes. But I guess that’s OK with you, right?

3) For other Jewish terrorist incidents you have to go back to the 1946 King David Hotel bombing? What’s with that?  Well, that’s because Israelis have NOT engaged in the equivalent of suicide bombing…the Palestinians’ beef is with the Israeli government and military.

4) A terrorist attack on innocents by Goldstein in NO WAY justifies all the attacks before and after him by Palestinians and others on innocent Israelis.  I cite the pizza parlor incident specifically because it was targeted at children.  But there have been attacks at weddings, and on lots of buses, just to name a few.

5) Terrorizing civilians by random attacks just makes them hate Palestinians more—because they are now afraid.  Fear can make people do awful things, but it also stiffens their resolve.  Hitler made that mistake bombing London, and the Brits made the SAME mistake with general pattern bombing of German civilians.  In case you haven’t figured it out, the Israelis are NOT going to submit.

As I said before—you are justifying suicide bombers, again and again.  They are then called heros, “martyrs”, and venerated—for killing innocents and children.

The difference between you and me is I hold Baruch Goldstein to the SAME standard I hold the suicide terrorists to.  You don’t.  You condemn him, and excuse them. I condemn them all.

Unless the Palestinians decide they’ve had enough of YOUR type, they’ll never get peace.

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By Federer, April 5, 2007 at 12:49 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Part 2: It’s Not ‘Justifying’ Suicide Bombings To Explain That Such Palestinian Attacks Are Being Fueled By Israel’s Disproportionately Worse Occupation and Crimes Against Humanity

MAD, Prof. Cohn stated true facts:

- Dr. Baruch Goldstein, an illegal Israeli settler-colonist, walked into a major Palestinian mosque in Hebron, and machine-gunned and massacred 29 praying Muslims, and wounded dozens more. Close your eyes and imagine killing 29 innocents this way.

- Goldstein’s new widow Miriam proudly said: “Baruch wasn’t a psychopath; he knew precisely what he was doing. He planned on doing what he did in order to stop the peace talks. He did it for the people of Israel.” Goldstein’s tombstone reads: “Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a MARTYR OF GOD” Goldstein’s gravesite became a memorial and pilgrimage site for some Israeli ‘Rightys’.

- In response to Israeli terrorism, Hamas launched the very first Palestinian suicide bombing inside Israel: on April 6, 1994, a Hamas bomber retaliated by driving an explosives-laden car into a civilian bus in Afula, killing 8 people. There would probably have been no suicide bombings of pizza parlors if psychopathic Israelis did not sadistically mass murder Palestinians praying inside mosques OR barbarically drop one ton bombs on densely-populated civilian neighbourhoods OR savagely assassinate wheelchair-bound Palestinian leaders like Sheik Yassin. Imagine if a Palestinian suicide bomber blew up a comatose Ariel Sharon.

Regardless, no Palestinian suicide bombing comes close to Zionist Jewish terrorism: In 1946, Irgun blew up a wing of Jerusalem’s King David hotel, killing 91 people (see link for picture). How many pizza parlours would have been taken out? Incredibly, last year, some psychopathic Israeli leaders (including former primer minister Bibi Netanyahu) attended the 60th anniversary celebration of this ‘atrocity’!
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1457.htm

An Israeli layer who defends caught would-be suicide attackers: “Everyone fights with their abilities—the Israelis have helicopters and rockets and the Palestinians have nothing but themselves and some very primitive home-made explosives…If you ask any Israeli to put himself in a similar situation of occupation and oppression for 36 years - everyone would say they would do the same, including [Israeli Prime Minister Ariel] Sharon. I never heard any similar criticism from those Israelis who are shocked by the killing of women and children in suicide attacks, of an Israeli rocket attack that kills Palestinian civilians…I can very well understand how suicide bombings became a very popular way of fighting - first, because it is quite successful; secondly, because people are ready to risk everything in order to achieve some progress in the national struggle.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3087051.stm

Finally, I found a video especially for MAD. British philosopher Ted Honderich: Can suicide bombers ever be justified? Now here suicide bombing is being justified using intelligent argument so let’s see what counter arguments you have.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15080.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/rooij02282005.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/honderich10252003.html

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By Federer, April 4, 2007 at 10:33 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Paul Findley (former US Congressman): “Carter Enters Lions’ Den: Despite Criticism, His Book Is Work Of A True Patriot

At the age of 82, Jimmy Carter entered the lion’s den. With the publication of his latest book, “Palestine: Peace not Apartheid,” he did what a patriot would do: rally Americans to vigorous debate of a critical issue that affects our future. He deserves a hero’s praise. Instead, he has been attacked and defamed.

I had the honor to serve as the senior Republican on the Middle East Subcommittee of the House International Relations Committee throughout the Carter administration. Carter frequently invited me to huddles in the White House; discussions that would ultimately lead to a lasting peace between Israel and Egypt. . .

I also experienced firsthand what Carter now faces. Toward the end of my 22-year tenure in Congress, I spoke in favor of Palestinian rights and was critical of Israeli policies of Palestinian land confiscation and Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian lands. These actions were counter to American policy and values. They dimmed chances for peace.

As a result of my evenhanded position, the pro-Israel lobby poured money into my opponent’s campaign. I overcame their challenge in 1980 but lost in 1982 by a narrow margin. Still, the message was heard loudly on Capitol Hill: Criticize Israel and pay with your congressional seat.

In my 1985 book, “They Dare to Speak Out,” I detailed the tactics used to silence criticism of Israeli policies. One of the groups employing these tactics is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. . .AIPAC and other pro-Israel lobby groups. . .often resort to smear campaigns and intimidation to clear the floor so that only their side is heard.

Carter has dared to call a spade a spade. South African leaders, like Archbishop Desmond Tutu and UN Envoy John Dugard, compare Israeli policies to apartheid. The Israeli press uses the term, as do Israeli politicians. Former Education Minister Shulamit Aloni said in a recent commentary, “Indeed apartheid does exist here.” Pro-Israel lobby groups have not debated the credence of these claims. Instead, they lob accusations and insults, even insinuating that Carter is anti-Semitic. They do not prove him wrong with facts. They seek to discredit him with innuendo. . .

American policy has long held, for example, that Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian land are illegal. Yet Israel continues to build them. American values demand that all people be treated equally, that rights be doled out in equal measure regardless of one’s race, religion or ethnicity.

Yet, as Carter points out in his book, Israel endows Jewish settlers living on Palestinian land with full rights, while denying those rights to the Palestinians living on their own land.

If these issues were debated openly, U.S. policymakers would have to hold Israel accountable and demand that our financial and diplomatic support be contingent upon Israel upholding American values and policy positions.

Yet there is silence. Critical discussion of Israeli policies is non-existent in Congress. Rather than conducting vigorous committee hearings, as happens with other issues, members of Congress compete to outdo one another in statements of support for Israel. And American tax dollars keep flowing uninterrupted to Israel.

Our unconditional support of Israel damages our credibility on the world stage. It deprives us of potential allies in the Arab and Muslim worlds. It allows Israel to remain intransigent and condemns Palestinian and Israeli children to decades more of conflict.

Open discussion, where all perspectives are debated, leads to good policy. Carter took a stand for what is right: for Americans, for Palestinians and for Israelis. It is time for a sitting president and members of Congress to do the same.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0702070020feb07,0,5388645.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed

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By Righty, April 4, 2007 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
Well I gave you your chance to post the objective polls I requested.
It has now been 2 weeks & you have not. This is what I thought would happen. That is because there are no polls that show Arab Muslims would allow equal religious rights to Jews and Christians in a one state solution in the Middle East.
So the struggle goes on for Israel to survive in the midst of her hostile Arab Muslim neighbors.
Your hate of the Jewish state is obvious and all your spamming is not going to change that.
Bye you liar and distorter of the truth in the Israeli/Arab conflict.

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By Federer, April 4, 2007 at 1:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony: Sorry to see you go. You’ve been an inspiration, my friend. I hope to connect to your Yahoo group as well as e-mail you in a few days.

Righty, you’ll have to keep sweating.

MAD, I don’t have time right now to debunk everything you wrote, starting with your very first point:
- Mad: “You even quoted people who JUSTIFY suicide bombers.”
- Federer: “Exactly where?”
- Mad: “You know, Federer, with your 10,000 posts you really ought to read them once in a while.  Here. Your own hyperlink.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10595  “

I’m having a good laugh. The person you claim “who justify suicide bombers” is Marjorie Cohn, a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, president of the National Lawyers Guild and the US representative to the American Association of Jurists. What she said are true facts and cannot be construed as “justify suicide bombers” (except in your warped mind): “Before 1994, Hamas restricted its guerrilla actions to political and military targets in the occupied Palestinian territories.  On February 25, 1994, Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish settler, shot and killed 29 Muslim worshippers in the Mosque of the Patriarch in Hebron.  Hamas took revenge with a new weapon - the suicide bomber. One of the deadliest attacks was a Tel Aviv bus bombing in October 1994 that killed 23 people.  Posters at universities in the West Bank and Gaza read: “Israel has nuclear bombs, we have human bombs.”  Indeed, Sheik Hassan Yousef of Hamas told the Journal of Middle East Affairs in 2002, “We do not have F-16s, but we do have one weapon that is more powerful than the F-16 or anything else.  It is a weapon that is unconventional and at the same time mightier than any nuclear bomb.  It is the martyrdom bomber.”  James O. Goldsborough, a former columnist for the San Diego Union-Tribune, correlated increases in the number of suicide bombers with Israel’s stepped up violence against the Palestinian people. Hamas and Hezbollah enjoy widespread popular support because they stand up to Israeli aggression.  Both combine political action and militant jihad with humanitarian, social and educational programs.”

Everything Prof. Cohn stated are true facts:

- Dr. Baruch Goldstein, an illegal Israeli settler-colonist, walked into a major Palestinian mosque in Hebron, and machine-gunned and massacred 29 praying Muslims, and wounded dozens more. Close your eyes and imagine killing 29 innocents this way.

- Goldstein’s new widow Miriam proudly said: “Baruch wasn’t a psychopath; he knew precisely what he was doing. He planned on doing what he did in order to stop the peace talks. He did it for the people of Israel.” Goldstein’s tombstone reads: “Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a MARTYR OF GOD” Goldstein’s gravesite became a memorial and pilgrimage site for some Israeli ‘Rightys’.

- In response to Israeli terrorism, Hamas launched the very first Palestinian suicide bombing inside Israel: on April 6, 1994, a Hamas bomber retaliated by driving an explosives-laden car into a civilian bus in Afula, killing 8 people.

- Terrorism experts agree that Palestinian suicide attacks are correlated to and triggered by Israel’s colonial occupation, brutal terroristic attacks and assassination policy.
http://www.antiwar.com/scheuer/?articleid=6286
http://www.amconmag.com/2005_07_18/article.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/niva03242004.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/niva08272003.html

- Israeli lawyer who defends Palestinian suicide bombers: “Everyone fights with their abilities - the Israelis have helicopters and rockets and the Palestinians have nothing but themselves and some very primitive home-made explosives.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3087051.stm

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By Federer, April 4, 2007 at 1:21 am Link to this comment
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Paul Findley (former US Congressman): “Carter Enters Lions’ Den: Despite Criticism, His Book Is Work Of A True Patriot

At the age of 82, Jimmy Carter entered the lion’s den. With the publication of his latest book, “Palestine: Peace not Apartheid,” he did what a patriot would do: rally Americans to vigorous debate of a critical issue that affects our future. He deserves a hero’s praise. Instead, he has been attacked and defamed.

I had the honor to serve as the senior Republican on the Middle East Subcommittee of the House International Relations Committee throughout the Carter administration. Carter frequently invited me to huddles in the White House; discussions that would ultimately lead to a lasting peace between Israel and Egypt. I know Carter well and consider him a friend.

I also experienced firsthand what Carter now faces. Toward the end of my 22-year tenure in Congress, I spoke in favor of Palestinian rights and was critical of Israeli policies of Palestinian land confiscation and Jewish-only settlements on Palestinian lands. These actions were counter to American policy and values. They dimmed chances for peace.

As a result of my evenhanded position, the pro-Israel lobby poured money into my opponent’s campaign. I overcame their challenge in 1980 but lost in 1982 by a narrow margin. Still, the message was heard loudly on Capitol Hill: Criticize Israel and pay with your congressional seat.

In my 1985 book, “They Dare to Speak Out,” I detailed the tactics used to silence criticism of Israeli policies. One of the groups employing these tactics is the American Israel Public Affairs Committee. . .AIPAC and other pro-Israel lobby groups. . .often resort to smear campaigns and intimidation to clear the floor so that only their side is heard.

Carter has dared to call a spade a spade. South African leaders, like Archbishop Desmond Tutu and UN Envoy John Dugard, compare Israeli policies to apartheid. The Israeli press uses the term, as do Israeli politicians. Former Education Minister Shulamit Aloni said in a recent commentary, “Indeed apartheid does exist here.” Pro-Israel lobby groups have not debated the credence of these claims. Instead, they lob accusations and insults, even insinuating that Carter is anti-Semitic. They do not prove him wrong with facts. They seek to discredit him with innuendo. . .

American policy has long held, for example, that Israeli settlements on occupied Palestinian land are illegal. Yet Israel continues to build them. American values demand that all people be treated equally, that rights be doled out in equal measure regardless of one’s race, religion or ethnicity.

Yet, as Carter points out in his book, Israel endows Jewish settlers living on Palestinian land with full rights, while denying those rights to the Palestinians living on their own land.

If these issues were debated openly, U.S. policymakers would have to hold Israel accountable and demand that our financial and diplomatic support be contingent upon Israel upholding American values and policy positions.

Yet there is silence. Critical discussion of Israeli policies is non-existent in Congress. Rather than conducting vigorous committee hearings, as happens with other issues, members of Congress compete to outdo one another in statements of support for Israel. And American tax dollars keep flowing uninterrupted to Israel.

Our unconditional support of Israel damages our credibility on the world stage. It deprives us of potential allies in the Arab and Muslim worlds. It allows Israel to remain intransigent and condemns Palestinian and Israeli children to decades more of conflict.

Open discussion, where all perspectives are debated, leads to good policy. Carter took a stand for what is right: for Americans, for Palestinians and for Israelis. It is time for a sitting president and members of Congress to do the same.”
http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/fairenough/trib35.html

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By Mad As Hell, April 3, 2007 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Still with the childish insults Robert?

What will you call me next? “Poopy-head” or “big stupid-head”?

I’m done arguing with you. 

Have a nice day.

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By Robert, April 3, 2007 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #61857 by “Mad From Hell” on 4/02

You are quite welcome “Mad From Hell”. I didn’t know that you were playing “winner…loser” game KING!

MFH…you missed one comment from your last post:

I wonder what he “MFH” thinks of his IDF buddies murdering Palestinian boys and girls.

May be “That’s the excuse of cowards and the morally bankrupt for being a bunch of murderers.”

MFH…a couple of pitchers of good cold beer would really help your situation.

Take good care King…LOL !!!

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By Robert, April 3, 2007 at 7:02 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“CONDI’S MIDDLE EAST MISSION”

“OLMERT & THE PUSSYCAT”

By Uri Avnery

“Can A pantheress turn into a pussycat? Impossible, a zoologist would say. But last week, we saw it happen with our own eyes.

Condoleezza Rice came here to teach Ehud Olmert, once and for all, who is the boss. The president of the United States wants to make order in the Middle East, and the government of Israel has to fall into line. Otherwise

Two days later, nothing of the threat remained. Olmert refused again. And what happened? Nothing happened. The fearful pantheress slunk home, her tail between her legs.”

“Condoleezza arranged a showdown with Olmert and was ready to submit an ultimatum. But it seems that at the last moment new instructions came from the White House: Let go and come home.

It appears that President Bush is even weaker than Olmert. In the two houses of Congress he has suffered a stinging defeat on Iraq. The American public has no stomach for another war, this time against a country far more united and determined than Iraq. In this political situation, the last thing he needs is a head-on collision with the pro-Israel lobby, with its Jewish and Christian wings.

The two professors, Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer, won this round. In this clash between the national interests of the United States and the government of Israel and its American fans, the Israeli side won.

The steamroller did not roll. Condoleezza went to olmert and sat with him for three hours. Her final statement sounds more like a purring of a domestic cat than the snarling of a predator.”

**************************************************

Wow Condi & Mr President! What does AIPAC & Ehud Olmert have on you? There must be something that is VERY HUGE. Both of them have their damn tail tucked between their legs. What a damn joke & a bunch of whimps!

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT AIPAC, EHUD OLMERT, BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, MOSSAD AND OTHER ISRAELI
OFFICIALS…MUST HAVE SOMETHING ON THIS U.S. ADMINISTRATION.

ISRAEL WILL CALL THE SHOTS… OR ITS BLACKMAIL TIME !

Here is the link to Uri Avnery’s article:

http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery04022007.html

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By Mad As Hell, April 2, 2007 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Thank you, Robert.  I accept your acknowledgment of defeat:

Comment #61728 by Robert on 4/02 at 6:10 am

1“Mad From Hell’s”
2"idiot”
3"sick”
4"paranoid”
5"schizophrenic”
6"hogwash”
7"brutal zionist Israel”
8"His bosses at AIPAC, IDF Humanity Department”
9"sly”
10"sick attempt”
11"sick idiot”
12"MFH…you need some help with your disorder”
13"his IDF buddies”
14"has made it clear & his IDF boots prints are clearly in Benjamin Netanyahu, Aeriel Sharon & Ehud Olmert’s policy zone”
15"He is not even allowed to utter or writethe word “Palestine”! “
16"IDF soul”

Wow, Robert! 16 lies, insults and slanders in just ONE post.  Not ONE thing you have said here is even VAGUELY true.

But not one fact.  Not one.

Thank you. I accept your incredibly ungracious tipping over of your king.

That’s what it means when you spew, like diarrhea, insult after insult: You’ve lost and you are a sore loser.  Like a spoiled child.

Perhaps you are due for a time-out and a nap.  That’s how I treat my 2 year-old when he behaves as you do.  But he’s 2.  You don’t have that excuse.

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By Mad As Hell, April 2, 2007 at 8:25 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

” Mad: “You even quoted people who JUSTIFY suicide bombers.”

Exactly where? “

Here’s your very own hyperlink. And below are the paragraphs that CLEARLY show the author defending suicide bombers, even when used against civilians.

See, to Federer, killing innocent civilian Israelis by suicide bomb is “revenge”, but killing a Palestinian for ANY reason is a war atrocity.

Read on:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10595

From Federer’s reference:

“Before 1994, Hamas restricted its guerrilla actions to political and military targets in the occupied Palestinian territories.  On February 25, 1994, Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish settler, shot and killed 29 Muslim worshippers in the Mosque of the Patriarch in Hebron.  Hamas took revenge with a new weapon - the suicide bomber.

One of the deadliest attacks was a Tel Aviv bus bombing in October 1994 that killed 23 people.  Posters at universities in the West Bank and Gaza read: “Israel has nuclear bombs, we have human bombs.”  Indeed, Sheik Hassan Yousef of Hamas told the Journal of Middle East Affairs in 2002, “We do not have F-16s, but we do have one weapon that is more powerful than the F-16 or anything else.  It is a weapon that is unconventional and at the same time mightier than any nuclear bomb.  It is the martyrdom bomber.”  “

See? Killing ordinary people on a bus is “revenge”, not murder, not an atrocity—because the people on the bus were Jews, and to the author and, by implication, Federer, Jews are less than human.  Murdering children in a pizza parlor (another bombing) is considered “martyrdom” to these psychopaths.

BTW, Goldstein committed suicide, too, just like a “martyr”.  Yeah, I equate his action with the suicide bombers. No different, just as evil, just as deserving of condemnation.

Only Robert buys into this crap.

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By Robert, April 2, 2007 at 7:10 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Hey Federer…I just read “Mad From Hell’s” comment #61382 of 3/30 at 10:46 am.

I must confess that I really laughed at this idiot’s comments.

“Now, of course, Federer, you advocated murdering me.”

Only a sick paranoid schizophrenic would come up with this hogwash speculations & accusations.

MFH…is really desperate to shut you up about his brutal zionist Israel. His bosses at AIPAC, IDF Humanity Department& others are on him to get something accomplished on this forum.

What a sly & sick attempt from this pseudo “high morality” sick idiot.

MFH…you need some help with your disorder…man.

I wonder what he thinks of his IDF buddies murdering Palestinian boys & girls?

May be “That’s the excuse of cowards and the morally bankrupt for being a bunch of murderers.”

MFH… has made it clear & his IDF boots prints are clearly in Benjamin Netanyahu, Aeriel Sharon & Ehud Olmert’s policy zone on “Palestine”. Grab all the land & get rid off all the Palestinians.

He is not even allowed to utter or writethe word “Palestine”!

Federer…take it easy on this IDF soul. May be someday he’ll have a heart & compassion for the well fare of all children.

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By Lefty, April 1, 2007 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Re: Comment #61473 by Robert on 3/31 at 12:33 am

Comment #61386 by “Righty” on 3/30 at 11:23 am

“ ‘Federer:
Bottom line, there is no Palestinian people. They are arab Muslims from Jordan. Did you forget the West Bank belonged to Jordan. Jordan is the state that was to be Arab and Israel was to be the Jewish state. Well the Arabs tried to get it all and were defeated.’

“Hey Righty…which Israeli town are you writing from? Which state from the U.S. did you leave to go to Israel? Apparently from what references you are using in your “elementary level” comments, it looks like that you have read a few zionist books written by Bejamin Netanyahu, Ariel Sharon & some other zionist zealots…etc. . . .”
————————————————————————
Hey Robert [aka Abu], which arab town are you writing from?  How many psychopathic arab teenagers have you turned into suicide bombers today?  How much money are you being paid by the Iranian government to train terrorists and spend all of your waking time spreading arab propaganda on the internet?  And most importantly, when will it be your turn to be a martyr?

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By Righty, April 1, 2007 at 8:13 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To this forum:
It has been over a week and Federer has still not produced those objective polls that show Muslim Arabs are willing to allow Jews equal religious rights in a one state solution. That means allowing prayer on the Temple Mount by Jews and Christians.
Federer is very good at producing 100s of links and polls showing how bad Jews are but nothing on Arab Muslim failings. I guess they must be angels. (LOL)
Again he is a propaganda minister for the United Nations and Arab league. He is a professional spammer and probably being paid for it.
I suggest such a slime bucket be ignored. Maybe he will go away and some real honest conversation can take place. Oh yes, Robert & Larry seem to be your Amen guys. Do you pay them for their services?

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By Mad As Hell, April 1, 2007 at 6:18 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Tony,
Sorry to see you leave.  Though it has gotten heated at times, you’ve always been a gentlman, and refrained from name-calling.  For that I thank you.

See, Robert thinks it gives him some sort of edge to call me “Mad From Hell”—kinda like the neo-cons ALWAYS calling Al Gore “algore” and Hillary Clinton “the Hildebeast”.  It just shows him to be rude.

I will also say this Tony: Your positions you’ve taken, while I disagree with them, sometimes vehemently, are VERY different than the straight Arab orthodoxy that Federer and Robert post.  Hell, Al Jezarra, is fairer to the Israel than these two.

Good luck, and I know how you feel.  I am finding Robert’s continued name calling incredibly boring, and Federer’s “joking” threats of killing me (and Righty) to be totally inappropriate.

I suspect if you and I sat down over a pitcher of good beer, or rum-and-cokes, we’d have a great time arguing.

MAH.

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By Robert, March 31, 2007 at 1:33 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Comment #61386 by “Righty” on 3/30 at 11:23 am


“Federer:
Bottom line, there is no Palestinian people. They are arab Muslims from Jordan. Did you forget the West Bank belonged to Jordan. Jordan is the state that was to be Arab and Israel was to be the Jewish state. Well the Arabs tried to get it all and were defeated.”

Hey Righty…which Israeli town are you writing from? Which state from the U.S. did you leave to go to Israel? Apparently from what references you are using in your “elementary level” comments, it looks like that you have read a few zionist books written by Bejamin Netanyahu, Ariel Sharon & some other zionist zealots…etc…

Why don’t you post your references on this forum/thread? You will perhaps augment your “elementary level” comments and perhaps persuade us to give your zionist propaganda the credit it needs.

Who was in Palestine when the persecuted European Jews were flocking by the tens of thousands to the Palestinian ports in the 1940’s? Surely these Jews knew they were coming to Palestine. And Palestine had its own people, population and identity. These European jews flocked into Palestine against the will of the Palestinian (Christian & Moslem) Arab population.

Your zionist history books & theory paint a totally different picture for their zionist Jewish students. Apparently it helps with emigrating more Jews to Israel each year!

I have noticed that you mentioned money going to the UN and according to you the money that can be saved can feed the poor for the next 100 years!

Hmmm….very interesting…Mr. Righty! Let me say that the money ($3-5 billion) that your Israel gets from us each year, the American taxpayers, should be halted. The $3-5 billion dollars should be spent right here in these United States. The American taxpayers have given Israel more than $100 billion dollars since 1948. The money is still flowing in right now, non-stop. Just think about what this money can do for our American education systems & school budgets, social security, assisting American poverty, more police on the streets, our highways & roads, factories, jobs, better medical care budgets for our wounded veterans, and many others to benefit the American people.

Look at what Israel is doing with our money. Building new settlements & enlarging existing ones in the Occupied Territories. Building an Apartheid Wall to confiscate more Palestinian land & keeping the population out.

Lets not forget all those undeclared stockpiles of “WMD’s” that Israel has in its arsenal storage facilities. Almost all are given by the United States. Your IDF turns around and kills Palestinian children, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 year old with our American made weapons.

So Righty…just keep your zionist elmentary comments coming…they help the cause of the oppressed & justice.

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By Tony Wicher, March 31, 2007 at 12:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer,

I’m about ready to call it quits on this thread. Getting through to Righty any time this century looks like a hopeless task. We could have Mad thinking a little bit though. I suggest you join the Yahoo one democratic state group:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/one-democratic-state/

There are many interesting people and posts there, including Palestinians on the ground in the occupied territories. You would be most welcome. You too, Robert.

Mad, it’s been fun. Righty, you’re a bastard. Bye now!

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By Robert, March 30, 2007 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer…Your information, references, comments in relation to the TRUTH about the Israeli/Palestinian/Arab conflict is burying “Mad From Hell” & his other zionist(s) pals in their own manure swamp.

“MFH” just can’t take it; he just keeps trying sidetrack & change the tone/topic of this forum/thread.

MFH’s comment #60387 on 3/25 is so full of zionist propaganda crap. He tried to tell us that minimal freedom of religion can only be found in 2 Arab states: Lebanon & P/A. Notice how “MFH” does not use the name “Palestine”; he uses P/A instead.

He has not responded to my comments #60584,#60640 of 3/26.

Federer…Your TRUTH is spreading all over this forum & the zionist just don’t like it. They may keep attacking you & calling you a liar, hypocrite…etc…to shut you up. Them zionist may just exit out & hope that your comments will come to a complete screeching halt.

BTW…thanks for introducing me to Tanya Reinhart. She was a remarkably courageous Israeli woman who stood on the side of TRUTH & justice for the oppressed.

Federer…Keep the TRUTH coming& be well.

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By Righty, March 30, 2007 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer:
Bottom line, there is no Palestinian people. They are arab Muslims from Jordan. Did you forget the West Bank belonged to Jordan. Jordan is the state that was to be Arab and Israel was to be the Jewish state. Well the Arabs tried to get it all and were defeated.
This is not some game. Israel has every right to keep the land the arabs lost through aggressive wars to destroy Israel. There is no give back when you lose and you are the one who started it.
The Jews have always been held to a double standard. Now it is time for the Arabs to show humility and ask Israel for forgiveness for their attacks on her for the last 59 yrs. The Arabs have plenty of land and oil and it does not make one bit of difference if a Democratic Jewish state remains in the midst of their 22 Arab dictatorships.
But you Federer care nothing about fairness. You are just a puppet for the anti-Jewish United Nations. You use their statistics and findings to support your propaganda against Israel. The U.N. is worthless. It is a corrupt organization run by a bunch of anti-western and anti-Jewish bastards who live large in the USA. The U.N. needs to be shut down. The money saved could feed the poor of the world for the next hundred years.

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By Mad As Hell, March 30, 2007 at 11:46 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

” Mad: “You even quoted people who JUSTIFY suicide bombers.”

Exactly where? “

You know, Federer, with your 10,000 posts you really ought to read them once in a while.  Here. Your own hyperlink.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10595

” Mad: “Prove me wrong: Come out and state that the Sudan government is SO evil…”

You’re off topic and playing silly games. Go to the Sudan blog. “

Thank you. I KNEW you’d dodge it in your vehement attacks on Israel.

“If you meant Rafik Hariri, you’re pushing speculation as fact, as you often do. What is your proof that Syria was behind it? “

If you believe that then you believed George Bush when he said Iraq had WMDs.  You know DAMN well the Syrians eliminate ANY politician who opposes their occupation of Lebanon. Accusing Israel of doing it(which would be against their own best interests) is TYPICAL of the anti-Semite: Accuse Jews of EVERY evil behavior even if it’s against their own self-interest. 

Syria has a MOTIVE to eliminate Anti-Syrian politicians.  Israel has no such motive except that concocted in the heads of Hitler’s children.  It doesn’t pass the straight-faced test (“Can you say it with a straight face? Can your listener hear it with a straight face?”)

OK, let’s, for argument’s sake say that I grant you that Somaliland (not a recognized nation or political entity) is democratic.  That still only leaves 3. 

I LOVE how you use the old Soviet tactic of accusing America of doing what the Soviets were doing.  To claim that Syria is helping democracy in Lebanon yet again doesn’t pass the straight-faced test yet again. WHY would Syria POSSIBLY want a Western-style Democracy on her border? All that would do is tell the Syrians that life IS better than living under the Assads.  And that would bring a revolution to Syria, which probably would be a GOOD THING (as long as the US isn’t involved).

Or are you going to tell me Syria is a Utopia as well?  (I notice you dodge this one too.)

Now, of course, Federer, you have advocated murdering me. 

“Wild, paranoid speculation. State your facts. Wait, maybe ethnic cleansing one Mad and one Righty isn’t such a bad idea. See, you’re forcing us to become war criminals…”

Nobody forces anyone to become a war criminal. That’s the excuse of a coward and the morally bankrupt for being a murderer. I know you think you are joking, but I’m sure my wife and children would see nothing funny about it.

Now I have to ask the admins to look at what you are writing and see if it violates guidelines as you have just threatened to kill me.
Post #61306

Of course, that threat proves my accusation that you want to see all Jews murdered—you can’t even tolerate this critic being alive, much less all 14 million (5 million in Israel).

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By Federer, March 30, 2007 at 12:49 am Link to this comment
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Mad: When you scream that I am “SUCH a hypocrite!” what are you? ‘SUCHEST’?

You claimed that “the Arab states and Iran do EVERYTHING they can to violently destroy Democracy in the ONLY Arab entities WITH Democracy—Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority” which (a) intimated that Iran/Arab states were worse than Israel and (b) misrepresented that various Arab states were involved.

Israel has been far, far worse in destroying democracy in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and Lebanon than all Arab states and Iran put together. Look at the links to see the disproportionate destruction that Israel has done to Palestinian democracy. Israel has murdered almost 1,000 Palestinian kids since September 2000, preventing them from fulfilling their dream of voting in a free and sovereign Palestine with a more inclusive democracy than Israel’s. The Palestinian war crimes of 118 Israeli kids killed does not compare to (a) the disproportionately greater Israeli war crimes of killing far more Palestinian kids and (b) the fact Israel killed over 70 Palestinian kids before the Palestinians killed the first Israeli kid.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/
http://rememberthesechildren.org/RememberTheseChildren2007-03-27.pdf

Mad: “(Syria) were behind the RECENT assassination of the Prime Minister.”

Last time I called him, Lebanese PM Fouad Siniora was alive. In comparison, a sitting, democratically-elected Palestinian president, Yasser Arafat, died while practically imprisoned by the Israeli military. Speculation that Arafat was assassinated by Israel increased with the publication of a book by Uri Dan, Gen. Sharon’s confidant (see earlier post). Israel has illegally assassinated over 400 Palestinians in the OPT since Sept. 2000.

If you meant Rafik Hariri, you’re pushing speculation as fact, as you often do. What is your proof that Syria was behind it? Not complete is the flawed UN investigation (being manipulated by the US and Israel, and which has suffered embarrassments such as the resignation of prosecutor Mehlis in disgrace). Some pro-US or pro-Israel factions in Lebanon such as your ‘lebanese lobby’ accused, without proof, Syria for the assassination. Other Lebanese factions accused the Israeli Mossad or the CIA of doing the assassination to destabilize the country. Remember, the US organized a massive car bombing next to a Beirut mosque in 1985, which killed over 80 people (mostly women, girls and babies sleeping down the street) just for a single Lebanese target it missed.

Israel has been conducting assassinations in Lebanon for decades, even this year. “Last June, the Lebanese Army discovered several networks of Arab mercenaries sponsored by Israel’s Mossad conducting terrorist attacks and car bombings…Israel National News “Arutz Sheva” reported that Lebanese Foreign Minister Fawzi Salloukh was ignored when he protested to the UN about the discoveries. The US Ambassador to Lebanon…threatened Lebanon with very “grave consequences” and a boycott of foreign aid if Salloukh filed a formal UN complaint about the findings. Despite Feltman’s ultimatums, Lebanese Military Investigating Magistrate Adnan Bolbol was to begin questioning witnesses over the Mossad assassinations in mid-July. On July 11, the Lebanese opposition publicized its demand for a United Nations Security Council Resolution against Israel, as well as a full inquiry into the Mossad’s Arab-camouflaged spy killings. Responding within hours on July 12, Israel hastily retaliated with a full scale attack on Lebanon using the Hezbollah border kidnapping as pretext.” The other facts did happen, whether or not connected to the Israeli invasion last summer.
http://www.counterpunch.org/schuh02082007.html

Mad: “You want Israel destroyed and every Jew in Israel killed or forced to leave.”

Wild, paranoid speculation. State your facts. Wait, maybe ethnic cleansing one Mad and one Righty isn’t such a bad idea. See, you’re forcing us to become war criminals…

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By Federer, March 30, 2007 at 12:44 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mad: “They were behind…the assassination of Pierre Gemayel.”

You’re pushing wild speculation as fact. What’s your proof? Nobody knows. Not even Lebanon’s president Emile Lahoud, who accused Israel of being behind the assassination of Gemayel and said Israel was the main enemy of Lebanon, and the one that stood to benefit from the killing. The Pan Arab Al Quds Al Arabi newsmedia: “Those who planned and carried out this assassination were targeting Syria as much as they were targeting Lebanon…Syria is the one that is most harmed by this repugnant crime. The destruction of Lebanon is in the interests of Israel, which would like to see the Lebanese resistance busy with internal wars and Syria exhausted.”

Some Israelis display thinking, not your wild speculation.According to Haaretz (Israeli newspaper): “Pure political and diplomatic logic makes it difficult to see Damascus behind the assassination. The day he was killed, Syria chalked up one of its most significant diplomatic achievements since its defeat in Lebanon in April 2005: the renewal of full diplomatic relations with Iraq. Syria is also on its way to achieving a semi-official stamp of approval from Washington as an entity capable of calming tensions in Iraq. With such achievements, the last thing Damascus needed was a new accusation of a political murder in Lebanon.”

Mad: “that STILL doesn’t justify Syria killing EVERY Lebanese leader who opposed its occupation of Lebanon.”

Every? What are your facts, not speculation?

Mad: “Syria has. . .been meddling in Lebanese politics for nearly 30 years.”

Syria was officially asked to help Lebanese politics 30 years ago. In 1976, the Lebanese government invited the Syrian military into Lebanon to stop the Lebanese civil war. Its deployment was approved by President Jimmy Carter and the Arab League. Yes, Syria overstayed its welcome after the 1989 Taif Accords that it facilitated to successfully end the civil war. Among the reasons Syria stayed were to prevent Israel from gaining influence in Lebanon and also because of territorial hangover: Lebanon used to be part of Syria but was artificially carved out of Syria in the 1920s.

UN resolution 1559 (see link) that called Syria (“all remaining foreign forces”) to withdraw from Lebanon was adopted only in September 2004, after 28 years. After initial reluctance, Syria responded and withdrew by April 2005.
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N04/498/92/PDF/N0449892.pdf?OpenElement

Israel refused for 22 years to comply with UN Security Council resolution 425 of March 1978 (see link) and others, which required Israel to immediately cease its military action and withdraw from Lebanon. Israel violated UN 425 and 1559 when it invaded Lebanon last year to destroy democracy. Clearly Israel is the far worse defender.
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/368/70/IMG/NR036870.pdf?OpenElement

Mad: “I do remember Hamas disrupting Palestinian elections.”

Former President Jimmy Carter: “It is almost a miracle that the Palestinians have been able to orchestrate three elections during the past 10 years, all of which have been honest, fair, strongly contested, without violence and with the results accepted by winners and losers. Among the 62 elections that have been monitored by us at the Carter Center, these are among the best in portraying the will of the people.”
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc2337.html

Mad: “You even quoted people who JUSTIFY suicide bombers.”

Exactly where?

Mad: “Prove me wrong: Come out and state that the Sudan government is SO evil…”

You’re off topic and playing silly games. Go to the Sudan blog.

Mad: “BTW, last time I checked, Somaliland wasn’t a nation…isn’t an Arab state.”

You did say “Arab entity.” The BBC said “Somaliland has defined itself as part of the Arab world.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1154169.stm

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By Federer, March 29, 2007 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I’ll debunk Mad later.

Part 3 of 3: How Israel & U.S. Destroy Democracy In Palestine

Prof. Stephen Zunes: “a bipartisan resolution in the House of Representatives and a letter signed by 73 of 100 Senators put Congress on record that the U.S. government, despite rhetoric to the contrary, does not take Middle Eastern democracy too seriously. . .Palestine Authority president Mahmoud Abbas has been trying to lure supporters of the radical Islamist group Hamas away from terrorism by allowing Hamas’ political wing to participate in the political process. In response, Congress has rushed in to pressure the Palestine Authority to bar them from participating. . . the U.S. House of Representatives voted 397-17 in favor of a resolution . . .chastising the Palestinians for allowing the political wing of Hamas to take part in the forthcoming parliamentary election.”
http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3004

Prof. Juan Cole: “Bush allowed then Israeli PM Ariel Sharon to sideline the ruling Fatah Party of Yasser Arafat, to fire missiles at its police stations, and to reduce its leader to a besieged nonentity. Sharon arrogantly ordered the murder of civilian Hamas leaders in Gaza, making them martyrs. Meanwhile, Israeli settlements continued to grow, the fatally flawed Oslo agreements delivered nothing to the Palestinians, and Bush and Sharon ignored new peace plans—whether the so-called Geneva accord put forward by Palestinian and Israeli moderates or the Saudi peace plan—that could have resolved the underlying issues.

The Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, which should have been a big step forward for peace, was marred by the refusal of the Israelis to cooperate with the Palestinians in ensuring that it did not produce a power vacuum and further insecurity.

Frustrated, the Palestinian public predictably swung to the far right. Their embrace of Hamas does not indicate that most Palestinians are dedicated to destroying Israel; polls show that most support a two-state solution and are weary of the endless violence. Rather, they are sick of the Palestinian Authority and believe that Hamas will be more effective negotiating partners with the Israelis. As a Saudi political talk show host told the Associated Press, “They [Hamas] will be the Arab Sharon. They will be tough, but only a tough group can snatch concessions from Israel.”

In a mystifying self-contradiction, Bush trumpeted that “the Palestinians had an election yesterday, the results of which remind me about the power of democracy.” If elections were really the same as democracy, and if Bush was so happy about the process, then we might expect him to pledge to work with the results. . .(but) Bush is saying that even though elections are democracy and democracy is good and powerful, it has produced unacceptable results in this case, and so the resulting Hamas government will lack the legitimacy necessary to allow the United States to deal with it or go forward in any peace process.

Bush’s double standard is clear in his diction, since he was perfectly happy to deal with Israel’s Likud Party, which is dedicated to the destruction of the budding Palestinian state, and which used the Israeli military and security services for its party platform in destroying the infrastructure of the Palestinian Authority throughout the early years of this century. As Orwell reminded us in “Animal Farm,” some are more equal than others.

. . .But in fact (Hamas) has observed a more or less effective truce for about a year—indeed, as an important study carried out by the respected International Crisis Group pointed out, it has observed the truce far more reliably than Fatah.”
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/01/27/hamas/print.html
http://wrmea.com/archives/May-June_2005/0505007.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=7663

The Only Democracy in the Middle East?
http://www.counterpunch.org/gordon02032004.html
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article3399.htm

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By Tony Wicher, March 28, 2007 at 8:35 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #60935 by Mad As Hell on 3/28 at 8:16 am

Very well said, Mad. Surely Syria as well as Israel does bear heavy responsibility for Lebanon’s problems.

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By Mad As Hell, March 28, 2007 at 9:16 am Link to this comment
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Federer,
You are SUCH a hypocrite!

Syria has not only been meddling in Lebanese politics for nearly 30 years, they OCCUPY Lebanon, with 14,000 troops.  They were behind the RECENT assassination of the Prime Minister, the assassination of Pierre Gemayel, and have been just as brutal (even more so) than you claim Israel was—25 years ago!

Here’s one of your faves, a link:

http://www.lebaneselobby.org/News__index/news 2007/03 27 07 UN council gives Hariri murder investigation one more year.html

I’m not even going to try to defend Arial Sharon’s involvement in the massacre of 1982. You may drop your teeth, but I actually have ALWAYS agreed that Sharon should have been tried and CONVICTED as a war criminal for that.  It WAS a criminal act—and he deserved to be punished and wasn’t.

But that STILL doesn’t justify Syria killing EVERY Lebanese leader who opposed its occupation of Lebanon.  Syria DESTROYED true Lebanese Democracy to put in a puppet state.  Israel never did that.  Yet, somehow, each of the POPULARLY ELECTED Gemayels got murdered by either Syrian or Iranian backed forces.

Syria has MADE poor Lebanon into a battle ground between Israel and Syria. What threat is anything or anyone in Lebanon to Syria? Simple: Democracy.  What threat is anything or anyone in Lebanon to Israel? Hezbollah, and Syria.

Oh, I have my facts straight. It’s you, who NEVER condemn ANY action by any Arab state, no matter HOW barbarous who is the hypocrite. I’ll bet you even defend Sudan’s actions in Darfur, if not publicly, than in your own mind.

Prove me wrong: Come out and state that the Sudan government is SO evil it deserves to be overthrown and ALL its leaders dragged before International tribunals.  That it’s as least as bad as YOU claim Israel is, and even far worse. Prove me wrong.

I’ll bet you go silent on this one…

For the mods: I know there’s a link to a lobby, but I’m using it as a reference…I’m not spamming.

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By Mad As Hell, March 28, 2007 at 9:13 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer,
You are SUCH a hypocrite!

Syria has not only been meddling in Lebanese politics for nearly 30 years, they OCCUPY Lebanon, with 14,000 troops.  They were behind the RECENT assassination of the Prime Minister, the assassination of Pierre Gemayel, and have been just as brutal (even more so) than you claim Israel was—25 years ago!

Here’s one of your faves, a link:

http://www.lebaneselobby.org/News__index/news 2007/
03 27 07 UN council gives Hariri
murder investigation one more year.html

I’m not even going to try to defend Arial Sharon’s involvement in the massacre of 1982. You may drop your teeth, but I actually have ALWAYS agreed that Sharon should have been tried and CONVICTED as a war criminal for that.  It WAS a criminal act—and he deserved to be punished and wasn’t.

But that STILL doesn’t justify Syria killing EVERY Lebanese leader who opposed its occupation of Lebanon.  Syria DESTROYED true Lebanese Democracy to put in a puppet state.  Israel never did that.  Yet, somehow, each of the POPULARLY ELECTED Gemayels got murdered by either Syrian or Iranian backed forces.

Syria has MADE poor Lebanon into a battle ground between Israel and Syria. What threat is anything or anyone in Lebanon to Syria? Simple: Democracy.  What threat is anything or anyone in Lebanon to Israel? Hezbollah, and Syria.

Oh, I have my facts straight. It’s you, who NEVER condemn ANY action by any Arab state, no matter HOW barbarous who is the hypocrite. I’ll bet you even defend Sudan’s actions in Darfur, if not publicly, than in your own mind.

Prove me wrong: Come out and state that the Sudan government is SO evil it deserves to be overthrown and ALL its leaders dragged before International tribunals.  That it’s as least as bad as YOU claim Israel is, and even far worse. Prove me wrong.

I’ll bet you go silent on this one…

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By Federer, March 28, 2007 at 12:20 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mad’s ‘argument’: “You know, I do remember explicitly Syria disrupting Lebanese elections, and I do remember Hamas disrupting Palestinian elections.  I remember Syria invading Lebanon on some gen’d up excuse, and ONLY leaving when faced with international pressure.”

“I remember”? What are his facts, his details, his factual reports, his reputable sources? He has… nothing.

Examine Mad’s memory: “I remember Syria invading Lebanon on some gen’d up excuse.”

- 1975 was the beginning of the 15-year Lebanese civil war. It started when Lebanese Christian Phalangists massacred Palestinian refugees in Beirut. (Palestinian refugees were created by Israel’s ethnic cleansings since 1948)

- By April 1976, the Christian Maronite forces were close to defeat as the Lebanese National Movement-PLO alliance gained control of about two-thirds of Lebanon. The rightist Christian Lebanese Front asked Syria for help through Lebanon’s Christian president.

- Syria accepted the Lebanese invitation because Hafez Assad was concerned that the PLO might gain power in Lebanon, giving Israel an excuse to get militarily involved and destabilize the region.

- In June 1976, the Syrian army entered Lebanon on an Arab League peace-keeping mandate. The Arab League agreement to end the civil war and the Syrian deployment were approved by US President Jimmy Carter and, partly, by Israel as they wanted Syrian troops to control the 300,000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon.

- To protect the Lebanese Christians, Syria attacked the relatively Muslim LMN-PLO forces and made many military sacrifices. By late 1976 there was a truce in the country except in South Lebanon (where there was conflict between an Israeli-backed Christian militia and the PLO forces).  Israel’s Yitzhak Rabin wanted Syrian forces deployed in south Lebanon to control the PLO, but was blocked by Shimon Peres and other paranoid Israelis.

- 1978 was Israel’s first invasion and occupation of southern Lebanon, killing 2,000 people (including voters). The meddling Israel supplied arms, money, training to Christian Maronite forces—they were fascists inspired by Nazi Germany’s order—and organized them into the ‘South Lebanon Army’ (i.e., ‘Israel’s Hezbollah’). A Christian Phalange squad assassinated the Christian Lebanese president’s son to remove a rival to the Israel-allied Christian Maronite leader.

- In January 1982, Gen. Ariel Sharon secretly met with Lebanese Front militia commanders to plan Israel’s brutal second invasion of Lebanon. Israel armed and supervised its Chritian militia allies. Israel invaded in June 1982, killing 20,000 Palestinians and Lebanese, mostly civilians. The presence of Syrian forces prevented Israel from capturing all of Lebanon, thus saving Lebanon’s democracy from total destruction by Mad and Righty’s clones.

Ze’ev Schiff described Sharon’s “large plan” for Lebanon’s democracy, which was to impose his “new order” in Lebanon by “driving the Syrians out of Lebanon” and installing the fascist Bashir Gemayel (head, Phalangist Lebanese Forces) as president. Under Israel’s guns, Lebanon elected the pro-Israel Gemayel, but he was soon assassinated. Sharon sent Israel’s military and its Lebanese Christian forces to Shabra and Shatila refugee camps, where they were responsible for a massacre of 2,000 to 3,000 Palestinian refugees, deteremined to be “an act of genocide” by the UN.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article11479.htm

- Hezbollah was created in the wake of Israel’s bloody carnage and arrogant occupation.

- Israel attacked democratic Lebanon several more times: 1985 (Operation Iron Fist), 1993 (Operation Accountability), 1996 (Operation Grapes of Wrath), 2006 (border skirmish escalated by into its pre-planned war). Many Lebanese voters were killed.

The Syrians never did to Lebanon even a hundredth of the damage that Israel has done. Compared to ANY Arab state, Israel has been violently destroying democracy, freedom and life in Lebanon and Palestine.

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By Robert, March 27, 2007 at 11:44 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“FROM OCCUPATION TO ENCLOSURE: FRAGMENTING THE PALESTINIAN STATE.”

By Amira Hass


Amira Hass is an Israeli journalist & writer. This 2006 video of Ms. Hass is at a community college in Olympia, Washington.

Amira discusses in very specific details about “Israeli Policies & Control of Palestinian Lives”.

It is appalling what the Palestinians have to endure under a brutal and racist occupation. Amira reveals and compares the “Rights” of a Jewish Israeli citizen vs. the Israeli Palestinian/Arab citizen.

Ms. Hass is truly remarkable with her courage & her commitment to reporting the TRUTH and the injustices of Israel’s policies against non-Jewish citizens, residents…etc.

Here is the link to watch & hear the TRUTH “From The Horse’s Mouth”:

http://www.video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1438657514924611656

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By Mad As Hell, March 27, 2007 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Federer,

I hate to tell everybody this but all of your 10,000 hyperlinks “proving” your position are pure manure.

All they are is links to somebody’s OPINION that you already agree with. Not to factual reports, not to evidence, and certainly NOT to reputable sources.

Anyone can find someone with an opinion that matches theirs.  That’s not an argument.

You know, I do remember explicitly Syria disrupting Lebanese elections, and I do remember Hamas disrupting Palestinian elections.  I remember Syria invading Lebanon on some gen’d up excuse, and ONLY leaving when faced with international pressure.

But that’s inconvenient.  Federer, like Robert, you are simply trying to whip up support and a justification to murder all the Jews in Israel. That’s been clear in EVERY post you two have made.  Never is there ANY criticism of any Arab state..

BTW, last time I checked, Somaliland wasn’t a nation. It’s certainly not recognized as one—the Palestinian Authority is FAR more of a nation. And it’s only part-Arab. The official language is Somail, not Arabic.  Somaliland isn’t an Arab state.

There ARE democratic Moslim states, of course…having been to beautiful Turkey twice (so far) I am well aware of it.

But none of this matters. You want Israel destroyed and every Jew in Israel killed or forced to leave.  You will say or do ANYTHING to bring that about.

You even quoted people who JUSTIFY suicide bombers, who argue that they are A GOOD THING!  Check your own links if you don’t believe me.

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By Federer, March 27, 2007 at 1:08 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Part 2 of 3: How Israel & U.S. Destroy Democracy In Palestine

Before democracy, Israel must completely end its military occupation.

- “For those who would receive the honor of being elected to a Palestinian democratic institution, there will be nothing to legislate, nothing to be legislated over, and no resources with which to legislate. This is the democracy Palestinians are being offered. And there is more. Not only was the last elected president of the Palestinian people forced to languish until his death under permanent house arrest, but two current Palestinian Legislative Council members, who were supposed to be immune from Israeli interference, currently reside in Israeli jails for their political leadership. Along with these two political prisoners, over 7,000 Palestinian prisoners remain detained by Israel, many of them leaders of their communities.”
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/bahour.php?articleid=4227

- “The hollowness of Israel’s commitment to free, fair elections was exposed in East Jerusalem . . . just over 6% of the Palestinian electorate in occupied East Jerusalem were granted the opportunity to vote in their city . . .a total of 6,300 out of a population of nearly a quarter of a million (including children). Yet even the lucky 6,300 - the number permitted by Israel to vote is entirely arbitrary - faced a campaign of intimidation to discourage voting.”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1694793,00.html

- “Israel itself holds the defining sway in facilitating Abu Mazen’s election. Despite making gestures echoing Colin Powell’s guarantee of full American support for the Palestinian electoral process, Israel has done little to make good on its assurances to ease travel restrictions within the occupied territories. Already Dr Barghouthi has been denied access to towns and cities within the West Bank, and has on several occasions faced harassment and physical assault at Israeli checkpoints. Furthermore, by denying permits to his staff, the Israeli government this weekend has attempted to prevent a visit by Dr Barghouthi to the Gaza Strip. Not put off, he has travelled alone, intent on passing the message to those imprisoned in Gaza that this is the very occupation and tyranny he intends, if elected, to free them from.”
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/democracy_palestine_elections.htm
http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/774570.html

- Prof. Marjorie Cohn: “Bush and his minions are doing everything they can to undo those election results. After Hamas’s election, Israel and the United States spearheaded the imposition of severe economic sanctions against the Palestinians that have virtually crippled their infrastructure.”
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10595

- Israel has imprisoned many Palestinian leaders (e.g., Marwan Barghouti is considered the most capable new leader), to keep the Palestinians from organizing. Even worse, Israel has assassinated or tried assassinating a number of Palestinian leaders, using undetectable poison (e.g., Khalid Meshaal) or violence (e.g., Rantisi and Sheik Yashin), including failed attempts on Yasser Arafat. But after many threats, did Gen. Ariel Sharon finally assassinate Yasser Arafat, a democratically-elected sitting president of the Palestinian Authority? Uri Avneri and Haaretz, Sharon’s confidant Uri Dan hinted that Sharon may have. Since we do not investigate the crimes of our ‘allies,’ there is no solid proof that Israel killed Arafat. Yet much more is being done about the speculation that Syria killed Hariri, even though the evidence is also questionable.
http://www.counterpunch.org/avnery01302007.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/826601.html

- The right to freedom of expression and the right to peaceful assembly in the era of Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip, See From p. 20
http://www.pchrgaza.ps/files/S&r/English/pdf/Series Study 18.PDF
http://electronicintifada.net/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/11/3882

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By Federer, March 27, 2007 at 1:07 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mad: “3) Why do the Arab states and Iran do EVERYTHING they can to violently destroy Democracy in the ONLY Arab entities WITH Democracy—Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority—and why won’t they do that to Israel if she became “multicultural”?

Part 1 of 3: How Israel & U.S. Destroy Democracy In Palestine

Only? You left out Somaliland’s representative democracy.

Everything? Violently destroy? BIG opinions, but you’ve failed to give ‘facts’ for us to debunk.  A cheap trick is to make unsubstantiated, exaggerated accusations against your victim, when your side is the disproportionately guilty party.

Here are the violent attempts of one Arab state to do everything to destroy the ‘democracy’ that Israel/U.S. dictates in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. The emir of Qatar criticized the West for punishing Palestinians for practicing democracy. “Instead of rewarding the Palestinian people for practicing democracy, something rarely witnessed in our region, they have been punished for it,” Sheik Hamad said in an address to the European Parliament. “I do not understand how an embargo can be imposed on a government that has been democratically elected and how collective sanctions can be imposed on the whole of the people. . .Is this not a double standard: to demand a free vote and then object to its results?”
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/15/europe/EU_GEN_EU_Qatar_Palestinians.php

In Palestine, nothing any Arab/Iranian state has done was remotely close to what Israel has been doing to destroy the conditions for democracy and human rights in Palestine, through violence and other means. (The foreign interference of Israel and the US are also bad in Lebanon, e.g., in the late 1970s, an Israeli-armed Christian Phalange squad assassinated the Christian Lebanese president’s son to remove a key rival to the Israel-allied Christian Maronite leader.
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=36170 
http://fpif.org/fpiftxt/3764
http://fpif.org/fpiftxt/3237  ).

Under international law, the Occupying Power Israel is responsible for upholding the Geneva Conventions in the Occupied Territories, not Arab states, Iran or others. This was reiterated by a Conference of the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention. 114 countries attended, including the entire European Union. Only Israel and its allies the US and Australia refused to attend.

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/3d14c9e5cdaa296d85256
cbf005aa3eb/8fc4f064b9be5bad85256c1400722951!OpenDocument

The Palestinians have been demanding democracy for 80 years, but have been blocked before 1948 by the Zionists with British help and after 1948 by Israel’s actions with the support or acquiescence of especially the U.S.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=6680

Successive Israeli governments implemented policies that undermined freedom and democracy in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article15441.htm

Israel and the U.S. have been taking aim at Palestinian democracy.
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/April_2006/0604007.html

It is ludicrous to expect democracy to flourish in Palestine before Israel ends its military occupation. The Palestinians are barely surviving a highly abnormal situation: not just the endless occupation, but the unresolved future of the Palestinian people. ‘Democracy’ is a smokescreen to deflect responsibility for the Palestinian plight away from the Israeli oppression, colonialism and apartheid.
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-makdisi250106.htm

Jimmy Carter: “It is almost a miracle that the Palestinians have been able to orchestrate three elections during the past 10 years, all of which have been honest, fair, strongly contested, without violence and with the results accepted by winners and losers. Among the 62 elections that have been monitored by us at the Carter Center, these are among the best in portraying the will of the people.”
http://www.cartercenter.org/news/documents/doc2337.html

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By Robert, March 26, 2007 at 8:03 pm Link to this comment
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Comment #60387 by Mad From Hell on 3/25 at 4:36 pm

“Mad From Hell” is at it again with his boasting about his Israel’s democracy & the freedom that Christians & Moslems have.

“MFH”...In Israel a Christian is permitted to preach the gospel in a church building, but for the clergy or anyone to even tell one about the teachings in the Bible outside of church will bring a 5 year prison sentence.

For a Christian to give a Bible or a religious article or even an act of kindness toward a Jew, such as giving a gift of food, can be interpreted as trying to convert a Jew to Christianity and can bring a 5 year prison sentence.

It is illegal for a Jewish woman to marry a Christian man or a Jewish man to marry a Christian woman. The marriage is not recognized and it is against the law.

Israel has NO constitution, but it makes and changes its laws for the benefit of Jews only.

An individual from any place in the world can emigrate to Israel if only one (1) of his four (4) grandparents is/was Jewish. A Christian or Moslem Palestinian born in Palestine does NOT have the same rights as a person born in Russia with “only” one of his/her grandparents is/was Jewish.

Christian & Moslem citizens of Israel are third & fourth class citizens. They do not have the same rights, opportunities and protections as Jews.

Just go and see how they are treated at Tel Aviv airport and other places in Israel. Their humiliations by the Israeli personnel staff are racist and sinful to the core.

So Mad From Hell…Just keep spewing your lies & zionist propaganda on this forum. You do help us and others to see the real TRUTH about zionism   & its many forms of ugly racism.

ZIONISM IS WRONG. IT IS BRUTALLY RACIST !

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By Robert, March 26, 2007 at 4:17 pm Link to this comment
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Oh…Mad As Hell…just can’t resist that ole sidetracking attempts to change the tone & topic of this forum/thread.

He thinks he is on that high moral route & still trying to use that simple 5th grade psychology strategy on name calling…etc…

Mad As Hell…plainly avoids the topic of total Israeli withdrawal from all occupied Palestinian territories (pre-June 1967) for a formal guaranteed peace agreement with the Arab states involved. Notice how he deliberately avoids using the word “Palestine”. He uses “P/A” instead. Typical zionist mentality & positioning.

This guy wants to drag us into the topics of anti-semitism, holocaust, Hitler and those familiar zionist tactics.

I am NOT anti-Jewish. I am anti “ZIONISM” and its RACISM/APARTHEID established laws & policies in Israel & anywhere else. I have high respect for Norman Finkelstein, Noam Chomsky, Uri Avnary, Amira Haas, Tanya Rheinhart, and many other Jews who are on the side of TRUTH & moral justice. They are NOT on the side of the BRUTAL zionism of Ariel Sharon, Ehud Olmert, the IDF generals & IDF soldiers.

Mad As Hell…Israel is not a weak military regime. Remember that Israel has the LARGEST undeclared stockpiles of NUCLEAR, CHEMICAL & BIOLOGICAL weapons in the region. These are facts.

No Syria or any other Arab state is a match to Israel’s American made weapons arsenals. The real threat is from Israel’s “WMD’S” not Syria.

BTW, you again elected to lie. There are churches, in Jordan, Syria, Bahrain, Egypt, Morocco, Tunis, Iraq & several others. There are synagogues in Syria, Morocco, Egypt, Tunis & others. And NOT jus Lebanon & P/A as you commented.

Its obvious that you are totally engulfed with your beliefs on zionist theories & beliefs. You must be under a heavy load of your zionist pals peer pressure. They must be watching every comment that you make & post.

Again…I’ll state that every Arab state that borders Israel will be willing to sign a peace treaty with Israel “TODAY” and every day, if Israel agrees to pull out to the pre-June 1967 borders. Do You Support A Palestinian State in the PRE-JUNE 1967 Territories?

Give us a simple answer…man. YES OR NO !

Are you able to do just that…or you run a great risk of getting hurt by your zionist pals/peers?

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By Righty, March 26, 2007 at 3:05 pm Link to this comment
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Federer Wrong Again.
There he goes on another long winded Arab propaganda lie. You are a liar and spew nothing but ANTI-JEWISH UNITED NATIONS CRAP.
Jerusalem was the capital of the ancient Jewish state of Judea or present day Israel. That is historical fact. No one questions that but you. We all know that Canannites were there before the Israelites. It is right in the Hebrew bible. The city was called Jebus and not Jerusalem.
Jerusalem again is Jewish in origin.
Again Federer, there are no Canannites claiming they want their land back. The land is Jewish land despite your lies.

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By Robert Griffin, March 26, 2007 at 12:39 pm Link to this comment
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Mad, in response to post 60387

The headquarters and patriarchal residence of the Syrian Orthodox Church is in Damascus.  The seminary at Ma’arat Sayyidnaya, near Damascus, is a relatively recently constructed building, such construction being generally against the law in hard-line Muslim states.

The Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch also has its headquarters in Damascus, and the Aramaic-speaking Greek Orthodox village of Ma’alula remains unmolested, unlike some of the ancient Christian communities in the West Bank, EI/P.

Syria is not a secular paradise, and the Assyrians from Hassaka and Qamishli have experienced some problems with legal support in dealing with Kurdish oppression (the Kurds also experiencing some Arab oppression).  On the other hand, while Syria is politically restrictive, the government is strongly opposed to hard-line Islam.  In the 1970s, after a violent and murderous rebellion by AlAkhwan (The Muslim Brotherhood), the government slaughtered thousands of members of The Muslim Brotherhood in Hammah.

Syria’s invasion of Lebanon was occasioned by the Lebanese civil war.  There may well have been dreams of Greater Syria, but those dreams do not seem to have played a major part in Syrian policy in and for Lebanon.

In fact, Syrian involvement in Lebanon had been invited/requested by the president of Lebanon in 1976.

Be Well,
Bob Griffin

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By Sebastian Pernice, March 26, 2007 at 10:53 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Israel needs to wake up before it’s too late.  It’s claim to being a democratic state is a sham in the face of it’s theocracy and apartheid/racist and policies of ethnic cleansing.  It can either become one democratic non-theocratic state open to all citizens irrespective of race/religion or two separate sovereign states:  Israel and Palestine.  Its present condition of increasing international isolation/boycotts and illegal status can only increase its status as a failed and rogue state.

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By Federer, March 25, 2007 at 11:37 pm Link to this comment
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The Gaza “disengagement” is not an end to Israeli Occupation, as the Occupation of the Gaza Strip continues in both its legal and physical form. Israel continues to have obligations as an occupying power in Gaza because it retains control over this Palestinian territory, and “reserves the fundamental right” to operate in it. Israel still has almost complete control over Gaza’s borders, sea and air space, tax revenue, utilities, and the internal economy of Gaza.

As a UN report stated: “The withdrawal of Jewish settlers from Gaza should be seen as the decolonization of Palestinian territory. This does not affect Israeli control of the territory, which will remain. Consequently, Israel will remain an occupying Power in respect of Gaza, subject to the rules of international humanitarian law applicable to occupied territory.”  “It seems clear therefore that Gaza will remain occupied territory subject to the appropriate provisions of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilians in Time of War, of 12 August 1949 (Fourth Geneva Convention). The jurisprudence of post-war Germany shows that the test for occupation is that of continued control. In the Hostages Trial (United States of America v. Wilhelm List et al., 1949) a military tribunal stated that it was not necessary for the occupying Power to occupy the whole territory so long as it “could at any time (it) desired assume physical control of any part of the country”.”
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/eed216406b50bf6485256ce10072f637/02bf82d785fe854a85257088004c374c!OpenDocument
http://www.pchrgaza.ps/files/campaigns/english/gaza/Fact Sheet 1 - Not an End to Occupation.pdf
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0821-27.htm

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By Federer, March 25, 2007 at 11:30 pm Link to this comment
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Righty, put down your Bible. The Canaanites built Jerusalem, not King David. As well, the Hebrews/Jews were only one of many conquerers, rulers and/or inhabitants of Jerusalem (in history, ‘Palestine’ had over 20 peoples who had invaded, ruled and/or settled the land) . The city was known by many names and had intermixed with many civilizations throughout history. Archaeological discoveries indicate that Jerusalem dates back to at least 6,000 years ago (the Early Bronze Age, c. 3500-2000 BC) as a Canaanite city, long before the era of Hebrew, King David or even Abraham. The El Amarna (Al Amarneh) letters written in Acadian language were exchanged around 1350BC (predating the Dead Sea Scrolls) between the Jerusalem king AbdiHiba and the Egyptian pharaohs, again predating King David.

“Recent archeological digs (in 1998) have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE (about 800 years before King David supposedly conquered the city from the Jebusites. The new findings contradict the theory that prior to David’s raid on Jebus, Jerusalem was a poor and small village.)....Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined…Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE.” The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.”
http://www.cactus48.com/earlyhistory.html

Uri Avneri (a three-term Israeli Knesset member): “Contrary to the Bible, there is no historical evidence whatsoever that the empire of David and Solomon ever existed. Jerusalem was a mere hamlet, Judea a negligible entity. The Jewish religion as we know it came into being only in the Babylonian exile, and since then two thirds of the Jews (as they have been called since then) lived outside of Palestine.” No archaeologist has ever found definitive proof, not even Mazar.
http://gush-shalom.org/archives/article322.html

Prof. Israel Finkelstein, chairman of Tel Aviv University’s Archeology Department and awarded the prestigious Dan David Prize (for outstanding scientific, technological, cultural or social achievements): “The Bible is an important source, but we can’t take it seriously.” Finkelstein believes, based on biblical research, that the biblical tales of David and Solomon are an exaggeration, at best. In his acclaimed book, ‘The Bible Unearthed’, Finkelstein argues that Jerusalem in David and Solomon’s era was no more than a small village of 500 inhabitants. He wrote: “The glorious epic of united monarchy was—like the stories of the patriarchs and the sagas of the Exodus and conquest—a brilliant composition that wove together ancient heroic tales and legends into a coherent and persuasive prophecy for the people of Israel in the seventh century BCE.”

Zionism is based on a series of major assumptions: the Jews came from a certain land that was once a major Jewish kingdom, and the Jewish people have the right to reclaim this ancient ancestral land and establish a sovereign state on it. Israel has been taking actions to create stories and facts to support this basis of Zionism. For example, many of the archaeological digs in Jerusalem are funded by the Ir David Foundation and the Shalem Center in order to support Israel’s claims to Jerusalem as Israel’s capital, to develop Jerusalem as a key aspect of Jewish identity and to secure as much land as possible in Jerusalem.

Given such motivations and the lack of definitive proof, one can say that Zionism has been perpetrating a giant fraud on the innocent Palestinian people, when its proponents demand and steal their land based on dubious, unproven history. There are other better reasons than this absurd historical claim.

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By Tony Wicher, March 25, 2007 at 9:26 pm Link to this comment
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(Al Jazeera article continued from below)

“This explains why the OPT has become a test for the West, a test by which its commitment to human rights is to be judged. If the West fails this test, it can hardly expect the developing world to address human rights violations seriously in its own countries, and the West appears to be failing this test,” he noted.

The EU, he added, pays conscience money to the Palestinian people through the Temporary International Mechanism but nevertheless joins the United States and other Western countries, such as Australia and Canada, in failing to put pressure on Israel to accept Palestinian self-determination and to discontinue its violations of human rights.

The Quartet, he said, comprising the United States, the European Union, the United Nations and the Russian Federation, is a party to this failure.

“If the West, which has hitherto led the promotion of human rights throughout the world, cannot demonstrate a real commitment to the human rights of the Palestinian people, the international human rights movement, which can claim to be the greatest achievement of the international community of the past 60 years, will be endangered and placed in jeopardy,” stressed Dugard.

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By Tony Wicher, March 25, 2007 at 9:24 pm Link to this comment
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Reply to Comment #60153 by Federer on 3/24 at 12:23 am

Thanks for the update on the U.N. Human Rights Counsel and Prof. Dugard. I found this article in al-Jazeera:


John Dugard: Gaza Continues to be Imprisoned Society

GENEVA, March 22, 2007 (WAFA)—

UN Special Rapporteur for the situation of Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) John Dugard said that Gaza is an imprisoned society and the prisoner has made several military incursions.

Dugard told the Human Rights Council this afternoon that elements of colonialism and apartheid are both prelevant in Israeli practices against the Palestinian people and noted that Colonialism and apartheid are contrary to international law.

He added that there are similarities between apartheid of the former regime in South Africa and now in the OPT exercised by Israel.

Israel has learnt the lesson of Apartheid by not showing their apartheid practices but the results are the same regime of oppression.

Dugard noted that more than 460,000 Israeli settlers live in the West bank and East Jerusalem.

He questioned whether the international court of justice to have an advisory opinion on this unlawful state.

In his report submitted today to Council, Dugard argued in favour of a new advisory opinion from the International Court of justice on Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian Territories.

He said, in his new report, that it must be remembered that the United Nations requested four advisory opinions from the International Court of Justice to guide it in its approach to South Africa’s occupation of South, West Africa/Namibia. “In these circumstances a request for another advisory opinion warrants serious consideration,” he stressed.

The Special Rapporteur poses several questions like what are the legal consequences of a regime of occupation that has continued for nearly 40 years? Clearly none of the obligations imposed on the occupying Power are reduced as a result of such a prolonged occupation. But what are the legal consequences when such a regime has acquired some of the characteristics of colonialism and apartheid? Does it continue to be a lawful regime? “Or does it cease to be a lawful regime, particularly in respect of measures aimed at the occupants’ own interests”? And if this is the position, what are the legal consequences for the occupied people, the occupying Power and third States? Should questions of this kind not be addressed to the International Court of Justice for a further advisory opinion? It is true that the 2004 Advisory Opinion on the Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory has not had the desired effect of,” adds Dugard.

Following his visit to the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT) and Israel from 1 to 8 December 2006, Dugard said that the Occupied Palestinian Territory is of special importance to the future of human rights in the world.

“Human rights in Palestine have been on the agenda of the United Nations for 60 years, and more particularly for the past 40 years since the occupation of East Jerusalem, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip in 1967. For years the occupation of Palestine and apartheid in South Africa vied for attention from the international community. In 1994, apartheid came to an end and Palestine became the only developing country in the world under the subjugation of a Western-affiliated regime. Herein lies its significance to the future of human rights,” he added.

There are other regimes, he said, particularly in the developing world, that suppresses human rights, but there is no other case of a Western-affiliated regime that denies self-determination and human rights to a developing people and that has done so for so long.

(Continued next post)

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By Mad as Hell, March 25, 2007 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment
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At least Tony TRIES to answer the questions I ask civily.

Both Robert and Federer go back to name-calling, meaningless adjectives (weasel), Republican-style framing the question as they see fit, pretending “everybody knows…” when there is NO factual basis,  and CONSISTENTLY avoiding my questions.

Federer—these questions have NOT been answered.  If the Arab nations are NOT held to the same standards that Israel is, then ALL you holier-than-thou and quoting of ARAB-SPONSERED UN resolutions is BULLSHIT!  If YOU want to claim that Israel is “just as bad” as Apartheid (and you ignore ALL the arguements that show they are NOT analagous), but REFUSE to condemn Syria, Saudia Arabia, etc, and ESPECIALLY SUDAN, then YOU are the lying hypocrite who believes the same things Hitler taught: That the Jews are evil simply because they exist.

NOWHERE has it been answered why the ONLY Arab democracies are VIOLENTLY disrupted by the Arab dictatorships—and don’t try to claim they are not.  Don’t even TRY to tell me that Assad in Syria wants an INDEPENDENT DEMOCRATIC Palestinian authority, or worse, an INDEPENDENT DEMOCRATIC LEBANON…didn’t Syria INVADE Lebanon not too long ago JUST to disrupt the democracy.

As for Robert’s weak straw man, even IF Syria claimed it was willing to make peace, there would have to be a HUGE series of actions that she would need to take to SHOW her honesty and good will (LMAO) and external guarantees with REAL penalties.  For example: do you expect ANYONE with an IQ over 60 to believe that Syria will NOT try to re-militarize the Golan Heights?  If there aren’t strong ENFORCEABLE agreements to prevent that, there is NO WAY Israel is going to let that knife be at her throat again.

Robert, you have said it again and again: YOU see Israel as blight that must be destroyed.  Your myopia prevents you from seeing it realistically.  Your HATRED of Israel and Jews prevents you from EVER seeing any threat to Israel, which means you can NEVER see a realistic solution.

If you don’t give a shit about threats to Israel, it means you cannot perceive these threats, nor how Israel REASONABLY can act.  It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to recognize a rational road to peace.  Therefore YOU believe that Israel does not WANT peace, so ALL you are doing is drumming up the anti-Israel hate propaganda, you and Federer. Clearly, the object is to get enough people who do NOT know that issues to say “Yeah, you’re right, that’s pretty bad.  Why are we supporting them?”.  You and thousands like you in this cycle’s anti-semitism revival to eventually CRUSH any opposition to abandoning Israel to a 2nd Holocaust.

That is the ONLY possible result of you the proposals of you and Federer.  And neither of you gives a shit.  Who cares if another 5 million Jews are murdered?

There are only TWO Arab states that even NOMINALLY practice freedom of religion: Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority.  And ALL the others are FAR more racist and theocratic than Israel is, ever was, or ever will be.  A Christian or a Moslem is free to practice their religion in Israel.  They can VOTE and hold office.  Can they do that ANYWHERE but Leb and the P/A?  No, they can’t.  They must live by Sharia, whether they like it or not.

Clearly, in Federer’s and Robert’s world, Jews have NO right to their nation or their religion—only Arabs do.  Like they’ve done such a bang-up job.

I cannot believe I’m still arguing with you two.

What vile names are you going to call me next, Robert?  You want to call me “Mad From Hell”?  Like that’s an ARGUMENT? Like that’s going to convince me of ANYTHING? Knock yourself out, dude!

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By Righty, March 24, 2007 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment
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Robert:
Yes, except for Jerusalem which is the center of Judaism. The very name “Jerusalem” is Jewish. The Temple mount is the holiest place in Judaism. The Jews have every right to freely worship and live in Jerusalem. They need permission from no one in reference to this.

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By Federer, March 24, 2007 at 1:23 am Link to this comment
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But first, Apartheid. At the UN Human Rights Council’s meeting yesterday, Prof. John Dugard compared elements of Israel’s treatment of the occupied Palestinians to apartheid (which he noted, in many aspects surpassed apartheid South Africa!), and said its settlement policy amounted to colonialism.

“Of course there are similarities between the OPT and apartheid South Africa…Apartheid and colonialism are contrary to international law,” he noted. Dugard also reported grave human rights abuses and war crimes: “Gaza remains an imprisoned society into which the prison guards have made frequent military incursions, killing hundreds of Palestinians and wounding thousands in the second half of 2006.” The situation in the West Bank was “little better,” with an increase in military incursions by Israel, and the construction of a wall between Israeli and Palestinian territory. Dugard said some 500,000 Israeli settlers were now living in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem. “Settlers, largely unrestrained by the Israel Defence Forces [Israeli Occupation Forces, really], subject many Palestinians to a reign of terror - particularly in Hebron.” He pointed to the demolition of Palestinian homes, separate roads and housing for illegal Israeli settlers and Palestinians, preferential treatment for illegal Israeli settlers, and special permit requirements for Palestinians that were not imposed on Israelis. “Can it seriously be denied that such acts are committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group of persons over another racial group?” Dugard asked.

Dugard rightly called for an advisory opinion from the World Court on the legal consequences of Israel’s regime of prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid for the occupied people, the Occupying Power and third states (the World Court gave four advisory opinions on South Africa’s occupation of South West Africa [Namibia]). Dugard warned Western countries that we would never rally support among developing nations for effective action against perceived abuses in Sudan’s Darfur, Zimbabwe and Myanmar unless they tackled the doubled standards of the Palestinian plight: “This places in danger the whole international human rights enterprise.”
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWB.NSF/db900SID/YSAR-6ZJPBB?OpenDocument 
http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL2227717420070322

Read Prof. Dugard’s report on the Occupied Palestinian Territories to the UN in the first link below; the UN Council’s discussion yesterday on Dugard’s report in second link; and an article by Dugard in a U.S. newspaper. For decades, the vast majority of the world community—the UN General Assembly—has been solidly supporting resolutions on issues similar to those described by Prof. Dugard. Bottom-line, Israel has been clearly violating international law and conventions for at least 40 years in its belligerent military occupation of the Palestinian territories, using it as a cover for its unlawful colonialism, apartheid and abusive policies.
http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/hrcouncil/docs/4session/A.HRC.4.17.pdf 
http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/22A40A0EE834B4F7C12572A70031EB6D?opendocument
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/dugard.html

While Israel’s ambassador used weaseling language to obfuscate the truth yet again, Prof. Dugard knows what he is talking about and is impartial. Dugard is a former World Court judge, a respected international law professor, a white South African expert on apartheid, and the UN human rights official reporting on the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT). Dugard was appointed in 2001 as an unpaid, independent expert by the now-defunct UN Human Rights Commission. Unlike the Israeli ambassador, Dugard is an independent expert who has ‘no horse in this race,’ just an interest in justice and truth.

Let’s not forget who is the Belligerent Occupier and who is its Occupied Victim in the OPT.

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By Robert, March 23, 2007 at 6:05 pm Link to this comment
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“mad from hell” is still at it spewing his “zionist israeli peopaganda” & look at who is calling the kettle black! Why don’t practice what you are trying to preach!

You are impacted & infected with your “Nazi Zionist” beliefs & theories. There is really nothing for you on this forum that can help you see the TRUTH about your Apartheid Israeli Regime.

Israel & its brutal IDF need people like you. You can shoot & kill Palestinian children and NEVER have to worry about convictions or jail terms. You can walk away free…and do it again and again…!!!

Your loyalty to your zionist Israel is so great…man. Why don’t you pick yourself up and just move over there? You will be able to get lots of monetary assistance from the American taxpayer’s unlimited funds.

Tony, Federer, myself and others have posted many comments/responses to your & others comments, but you just keep “whining” about the TRUTH. You exited TRUTHDIG because you did not like their information/policy…or whatever.

Let me put this for the record, every Arab state will be willing to sign a permanent peace treaty with Israel “TODAY” and every day , if Israel agrees to withdraw itself from “ALL” occupied territories (Pre-June 1967) borders. (References UN Resolutions 242, 338, 194).

Let me ask you this question:

Do you support the “FULL” withdrawal of Israeli occupation to Pre-June 1967 borders, if Syria, Palestine & Lebanon and other states agreed to a guaranteed peace treaty with Israel?

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By Federer, March 23, 2007 at 1:31 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Mad As Hell falsely claims that we’re dodging his “simple” questions because we’ve no “rational convincing” answers. Actually, we’ve got more productive issues to spend time on. This conflict has dragged on for 59 years because the truth has been obscured by clones of the MAHs, the Rightys and other pro-Israel advocates who seek to obfuscate the issues. No matter what you say, their fundamental positions are unlikely to change. Noam Chomsky gave a pertinent eulogy for the great Israeli Prof. Tanya Reinhart: “Her numerous articles (second link) and books drew away the veil that concealed criminal and outrageous actions, and shone a searing light on the reality that was obscured…She will be remembered not only as a resolute and honorable defender of the rights of Palestinians, but also as one of those who have struggled to defend the moral integrity of her own Israeli society, and its hope for decent survival.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/reinhart03192007.html
http://www.tau.ac.il/~reinhart/political/politicalE.html

In addition:

- First, the answers to MAH and Righty’s questions are moot, and have been debated elsewhere many times. Ultimately what matters should be the international laws and precedents for dealing with such crimes, issues and dispute settlement. Israel propagandists—such as Dershowitz—made similar weaseling arguments before the World Court case on Israel’s Annexation Wall, but the eminent world judges ruled according to the law.

As a former senior police officer, I’ve seen desperate robbers and serial criminals adeptly use weaseling questions and answers to try to avoid/evade the law. But ultimately it doesn’t work because they are prosecuted. Occasionally, an obvious criminal gets off because of his political connections (like Israel does). If you are a robber you should be held accountable for your crime and allowed to advocate your case before the court of your community. If Israel wants to be a member of this world community and has committed to “be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations” in its Declaration of Israel’s Independence, 1948, then Israel should submit to such issues being settled by the World Court, International Criminal Court and other organs of the world community.
http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/chapter1.htm

Pro-Israel cyber-soldiers like MAH should read the UN Charter before typing another word. It is unlikely that Israel could have been created to such a disproportionately large size without the help of the world community, including the UN and its predecessor League of Nations.

- Second, at least two of MAH’s three questions have already been answered directly or indirectly in earlier posts. MAH either is not listening, dodging our answers or rejecting sound answers. Imagine trying to rationally discuss a Mafia family’s crimes with one of their family members Even if they’re not criminals, they’ve been indoctrinated from young to interpret their family’s criminal activities using a different set of morals.

- Third, to test the validity of such questions, apply them to analogous situations. E.g., why should Israel not be held to the same standards for what it did to Gaza as the Nazis for their bombardment and starvation of the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto during WWII? Should the Nazis have been let off if they argued that their European neighbours and the U.S. were also colonial powers that committed genocidal crimes? It is a desperate excuse for a criminal to vindicate his crimes by diverting attention to other criminals.
http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=404

I’ll debunk MAH’s BS, again, later. As for Righty—who pops up under various names—no poll can substitute Israeli society just locking him and his clones away. In the absence of their virulent supremist prejudices and greed for land, Arabs and moral-minded Israeli Jews (like Uri Avnery, Tanya Reinhart, Gideon Levy and Amira Hass, etc.) would have accepted peace as equals a long time ago.

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