This Indian wonders whether Bert (#40490) is still so “optimistic” as he watches the soon-to-be majority in Congress disavow any intention of forcing the Bush/Cheney junta’s hand in Iraq, and cutting-off “debate,” before there even is one, on whether its principals ought to be impeached.  From here on The Rez it looks like all you Americans just got taken for another “ride” by the same gangsters and plutocrats you all slave-away for your entire lives.
    Brookie (#40532) says she won’t accept any moral responsibility for the criminal conspiracy that rules (and ruins) her life.  Well hell’s bells!  These ruthless privateers don’t need no stinkin’ “morals.”  They’ve got Brookie and every other American for the next seven generations on-the-hook for every last penny of the financial responsibility.  For these thugs it’s all about the MONEY…......always has been, always will be.  This is a ‘zero-sum’ game they’re running here, with every intention of leaving all the rest of you holding the short (and shitty) end of the stick. 
    Now here’s some good news.  Your tormentors are actually doing you all a tremendous favor, ‘cause when they’ve left you with nothing you’ll have nothing left to lose.  Then you’ll finally be able to stop running so god-damned scared everywhere and all the time.  Their long-time terror tactics simply won’t move you any more toward the dead-end they have planned for at least eighty or ninety percent of you.
    See, G.W. Bush doesn’t do his ‘Duke’ Wayne impression for no reason, folks.  To all intents and purposes America has been stuck in time at July 3, 1876, when Crazy Horse and company captured your flag at the Greasy Grass fight.  So this is still ‘The Old West,’ and the robbers who blew-up and derailed your train are demanding “Your money or your life!”  And they ain’t kidding, either.  They are lying, though, because they really aim to have your money AND your Life.  Under gangster rules, see, they take no prisoners, see, and they leave no witnesses, see.  So I guess you’ve already got nothing to lose, if you could only SEE it. 
    What in hell are you waiting for, then?  Surely you don’t still expect Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid are going to come charging down off “The Hill” to save your sorry asses from the ‘Hole-in-the-Head’ gang?  Hilbillary Clinton has important presidential fish to fry.  Dennis Kucinich will go on playing ‘The-Voice-Crying-In-The-Wilderness’ role he is so good at, without ever actually giving away the CONgame.  Wouldn’t it be a kick-in-the-pants if you sodbusters and storekeepers and schoolmarms and such end up getting rescued at the last minute, from death and destitution at the bloody hands of your own rogue cavalry (“calvary,” for those of you who lean nominally toward the christian dispensation), by us INDIANS?! 
    Damn, that would be some poetic justice!  Of course, your virtual world doesn’t work that way except in the movies.  Lucky for you our natural one never plays it any other WAY.  HokaHey!

QUOTE: “Comment #40490 by Bert on 12/02 at 6:05 am

Saddam wasn’t a good guy, but he was captured at the end of the Iraq war. What didn’t happen at the end of the Iraq war was that our troops didn’t leave, and it’s the post-war stuff that’s proven to be the worst part of it. The fraud, the controversy, the hypocrisy and so forth.

...”

I disagree; because regardless of what others prefer to say and believe, for themselves, this Iraq War has never ended.  The war is one of totally criminal aggression, and the foreign aggressors remaining as occupiers, and massacring Iraqis en masse, just that that is at least mostly censored from US msm news media reporting, well, this war has not yet ended; and it’s only the Iraqis who will be in a position to firmly state when this war will have definitely ended.  For them, it has never ended yet, and this is far, far more important and appropriate for guaging whether or not the war has ever ended, at all, yet.  It has NOT.

Anyone who believes and/or states otherwise is awfully little informed about reality in Iraq; very under-informed and/or ill- or mis-informed.  We definitely haven’t reached post-war context or status in Iraq yet; and it’s foolish to believe or side with political and military officials who pretend that we can believe that post-war is the real status in Iraq.  Those are the types of people who [cannot] be trusted on such matters, or any truly important matters, for that matter.

Accurate article, yet I abonish the notion , that I must take responsibility for the facist pigs BushCo in Washington DC. This war was planned BEFORE he was elected, Libby,Cheney, Rumsfeld all had large fingers in the pie ideas and we as American citizens were lied to by both sides of every face..Yes it is OUR fault as a country for electing him. Now that the militia is governing Iraq, more people will die, soliders and civilians.  For the bloodshed to continue , I hang my head, knowing the truth behind BushCo and am ashamed for what this country has come to be known as Lame, dirty, cowardous and stupid. We as a nation are almost bancrupt because of the wars , and we have no foreign policy or leadership value.We as a nation have never been more divided on any topic ever. The war is unpopular, unfair, illogical, disasterous and downright messy , at best. We as a nation will be in recovery from this administration for decades, assuming we will pullout soon.  I will not take responsibility for that blood , that down solider or that child..I will not own that feeling,  I did not have a choice or a voice to expell the notion of war.  It rests souly on BushCo’s head

Tax war to Peace! Investigate war to Peace! While Iraqi citizens and U.S. soldiers die, multinational corporations reap millions and billions in profits. Maybe they were the ones who talked us into this war. It needs to be investigated. A war profiteer windfall profit tax could end their ambitions to go to war. And if their inadequacy in any way led to the death of U.S. troops, they should be punished with draconian measures.

Victory; what victory?

It reminds me of recent Lebanon–Israel war; when Israel defence forces had no military force opposing them in Lebanon except a weak invisible civil resistance found in South of Lebanon.
Availing a very free hand, IDF and IAF were able to destroy most of the civilian infrastructure. Airports, all major bridges, public buildings, link roads, ports, petrol pumps and other civilian facilities, what ever it could; it was smashed. In thousand people died, almost all the casualties were the civilian.
An odd resistance, on the Lebanon boarder, forced the most power full, invincible army in the Middle East to bodge down for weeks. Even they were indirectly allowed extended time to kill but to no avail and; it was compelled to retreat bruised and bleeding under the cover of UN.
After having destroyed every thing at will, Israel was desperately gasping for one single healing golden word -Victory?
Victory, What victory? War is fought between two opposing armed conventional forces. Killing of civilian, smashing their houses, public facilities, and slaughtering them are a massacre, a cruelty and… not a war.

Like wise US in Iraq has caused so much of chaos and sectarian killing that troops themselves can’t even stand to it. But this all is for what? To stay yet another day and cause some killing; and to see; whether to call it a civil war or not?  Killing of even one innocent, defenceless person is as killing of the whole of mankind.

When a house is blasted off with the people living in it; and raiding troops leave the inhabitant dead and children maimed; with the wailing frightened widow behind; It does not take very long that same maimed kid turns back and we find him knocking at our door or out post with bombs strapped around his waist! …we may call him suicide bomber… but he is looking for one thing only… his killers.

There is no such thing as war against terror: No more labelling of Innocent oppressed people as terrorist. It is just; a resentment of oppressed…against our occupation.

It is a time for our soul searching and very deep soul searching!
——————————————-
Love for all, Hatred for none

Saddam wasn’t a good guy, but he was captured at the end of the Iraq war. What didn’t happen at the end of the Iraq war was that our troops didn’t leave, and it’s the post-war stuff that’s proven to be the worst part of it. The fraud, the controversy, the hypocrisy and so forth.

Then, you get down to the fact that as has been stated on numerous previous occasions, there would have BEEN no Iraq war to begin with if there was no oil there. The oilmen wanted this war, they lobbied for it, they falsified evidence for it, they pressured people for it, and they got it.

It bears remembering that there was oil in Vietnam, too.

I am optimistic for the future, though, because as the Democrats assume control of Congress, the voice of the People will be heard again, not the voice of the Exxon etc. However, the Democrats must be on their guard against similar influences trying to lead the country down the proverbial garden path. Our country’s now 8.5 trillion in the red, just saw today that 52% of that debt is now held by foreign countries, and the weekly news is telling us about foreign purchases of US companies, lands, and so forth. While no one of these factors by itself is inherently a problem or a threat, the cumulative effect of being beholden to foreign countries for the stability of our currency, the provision of our energy, the manufacturing of our goods, makes us very very DEpendent on other nations. Referencing past history for a moment, the Declaration of Independence was signed to relieve US citizens of having to pay taxes to foreign kings etc. Suffice it to say that there are numerous ethical and moral challenges facing the next Congress as they take office, everything from energy to illegal immigration, corporate governance, economic dependency, and so forth. Here’s hoping they’ve got their thinking caps screwed on tight and clean hands…

Wonder who blewup the WTC? Wonder who sold us the idea to go to war? wonder who lied to us about WMD? Wonder whos making all the $$$$$$$$$$$$ from the oil price increase? Dont we as the American people think that it is about time for the TRUTH about something??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I feel that the Iraq war was sold to America by the clever Bush administration that played on people’s fears brought about by 9/11.  Kerry and other Democrats bought Bush’s cherry picked information, especially after Colin Powell’s speech at the UN. 

  The whole WMD information was so vague and never exact enough to satisfy me that they existed.  Coining the term “weapons of mass distruction” was just a good marketing term used to confuse the issue. Before we went into Iraq, I kept combing the newspapers for stories that gave some definite discoveries of where these supposed weapons were located, some number of the amount of containers of poison gas, some names of Iraqi scientists who could have made these weapons.  Nothing.  Hundreds of articles skirted the issue of WHERE WERE THEY?  WMD was believed in by more people than children who believed in the Tooth Fairy.  Bush WANTED them to exist, thus he convinced others who trusted him.  Who would have thought that the President of the United States, with all his experts, with some of the best Intelligence in the world, would be so WRONG?  We forgot that a president is human and doesn’t know everything, despite our wanting to believe that he does, despite his bold confidence, despite his folksy and homespun demeanor.  The American people were duped by one of the best.  Are we now to castigate ourselves, and never believe in another president?  Do we always, always remind ourselves that things may not really be as they seem?  As for me, I intend to be ever vigilant.  From now on I will write letters to newspapers, congressmen, and anyone else I can think of if the government releases information that is so vague and insubstantial about anything as important as war.

What’s your beef, Marie?  You and your fellow pwoggie Americans just finished voting for continuing the Iraq Bloodbath by replacing the War Party with the Other War Party.  And now you’ve got the gall to say you voted against the war?  Are you perminately confused or terminally stupid?

And following is some extra ICING for those who supported this war.

“Saddam Did Not ‘Kill The Kurds’: The Myth of the ‘Anfal Genocide’”, by David Hungerford, Nov 14 2006, Rense.com

That copy does NOT use hyperlinks, and the link at the end for the original copy contains embedded spaces, so here is the link to the original copy,  Al-Moharer.net.

Mr Hungerford’s argument is entirely based on rather irrefutable legal terms; as careful readers will see.

Sure, his regime was sometimes and too often of wrongfully punishing governance, but we also know that he’s not the worst of state leaders, and that the US loves the worst; they’re the only ones who comply with US influence and ruling.

I do not think that it’s right for anyone in the West to condemn him on any grounds whatsoever; but while I do believe that everyone in humanity has the right and duty to call on any and all state leaders to be of just order of governance.

There is a very distinct difference between condemning wrongfully governing state leaders, and whether or not we have the right and duty to call on them to govern justly.  Major distinction.  Sometimes we need to do both, but these still should not be confounded as if like synonymous.

Instead of climbing all over Saddam Hussein’s back, we should call on him to be restored to governance, which, by law, is what is required; and all while calling on him to be of just order of governance.  He might be willing and glad to accept; ya know.

In the West, US anyway, we also have FEMA camps, which can in turn be justly enough called concentration and internment camps; constructed under this Bush regime, which is worse than Saddam Hussein’s regime ever was.  Americans need to be aware of these, both for the “illegal” immigrants and other foreigners who may end up internet, but also for peaceful American activists. Under new laws, like the MCA, Military Commissions Act, and Defence Authorisation bill or Act, it appears that US citizens can be interned in these as well; only needing to be labeled ‘enemy combatant’.  And that of course is easily enough done; under new US laws.

We must be careful about not being self-righteous when Saddam Hussein and his governance is the or are the subjects.  F.e., during the Iran-Iraq War, and based on what I read from a former CIA, one I believe who was head of the CIA desk in or for Iraq at the time, the UN called on both sides to ceasing warring.  This happened four times, and while Saddam Hussein agreed every time, Iran opposed to comply, also every time.

During even the horrendous and rather genocidal economic sanctions of the US imposed via the UN on Iraq, 1991-2003, Saddam Hussein still did what he could have his govt do in order to provide Iraqis in need with what they lacked.  A very striking example is in the following article.

“Farmers in Dire Straights, by Dahr Jamail and Ali al-Fadhily, IPS, Nov 16 2006, DahrJamailIraq.com

Sorry, but we have rather absolutely NOTHING of the like in the West!

Far, far more worthwhile would be to get Saddam Hussein back in his presidential position, and to negotiate with him, to not govern harshly like he or his regime did before.  It’d be far, far better to gain not his punishment, but conversion, to just order of governance; imho.  And, yes, I do believe that he would indeed be amenable to this kind of condition.  He did and does care about Iraq; unlike what we can say for or of people like the Bush family, and the present Bush administration.

Mike Corbeil
Canadian-American-Canadian
Quebec, Ca

P.S. I know that even not all American anti-war activists will agree with the above; but that’s ok, it won’t change my view, either.

A lot of insightful stuff here.  Americans generally as at least accessories to the oil theft is, unfortunately, right on the money.  Which is why, no matter the near-term fate of those nominally in-charge, Americans are going to pay the bill.  Like it or not, the set-up here devolves all responsibility back upon you “the people,” who ordained and established this arrangement.  Sure, you’ve been conned for generations into thinking that if you left the actual dirty-work (of killing-off or confining the native nations, expanding the empire, exploiting the resources of essentially defenseless peoples around the world, propping up ruthless regimes that aided and abetted your global crime spree, for just a few examples) to the relative handful of specialists trained and hired for it, that you yourselves could party-on forever, and never have to pick up the tab or address the mess. Now you see the reckoning not only balooning to monstrous proportions but certain to come-due in your own lifetimes. So get ready to discharge your debts, people. As for the mess, the only way out of that is to clean it up.

I would like to know just who the hell it supposedly is that didn’t support this asinine decision and actually could have stopped it from happening? The few in Congress and the Senate that stood up were crucified, the average American, you don’t even have a voice in this country. This bullshit about the American people taking responsibility is just that, bullshit. The responsibility belongs in Washington DC and the corporate boardrooms that our “leaders” bow down to. We’ve got a government that can’t make a decision on any issue until they see which side   has the biggest pile of money. To take RESPONSIBILITY you have to accept BLAME and that’s not about to happen with this government. The only words I want to hear in the same sentence anymore are IMPEACHMENT, BUSH, CHENEY followed by long prison sentences for starters

This war would never have happened if there were a draft.  I’m from the Vietnam era and never thought I would say this, but we need to bring back the draft.  It’s clearly a deterrent against involving ourselves in stupid, immoral wars such as the present one.  Having said that, however, I also don’t think there’s a chance in hell of reviving the draft, precisely because it does deter the war machine from going anywhere at anytime.

No Kidding Benny…...now get a move ON and Raise thow long bond rates…....American families would like to EAT other food than RICE.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/28/business/29econcnd.html?em&ex=1164949200&en=fdd2c3a426371026&ei=5087

http://charts3.barchart.com/chart.asp?vol=Y&jav=adv&grid=Y&org=stk&sym=CIF7&data=H&code=BSTK&evnt=adv

you guys are making one hell of a mess!!

http://charts3.barchart.com/chart.asp?vol=Y&jav=adv&grid=Y&org=stk&sym=DXZ6&data=H&code=BSTK&evnt=adv

reflex angle along the parallel…...tick….tick

concerned mother

ALEX . . .

“I watched FOX news every day for Brit and Bill and Shepard’s Iraq facts . . .
Rush updated me daily on Saddam’s WMD arsenal and Ms. Coulter opened my eyes to those freedom-hating, propagandists at the New York Times.
. . . us informed folk are keeping a keen eye on Iran.”

Murdoch is a fascist, likewise Brit and Bill and Shepard, Rush and Ms. Coulter.

I hope someone is keeping a keen eye on you, too.

oh my . . .

the big lie wasn’t about mushroom clouds and anthrax powder in the mail . . .

the big lie is still being told by every pundit, every so-called investigative reporter, and every politician save Charlie Rangel who did say the words “oil” and “Iraq” in the same sentence the other day on the Tucker Snarlson show, but his comment wasn’t picked up and reported here or anywhere.

the big lie isn’t even that we didn’t go to Iraq for oil (which we did, of course), but the big lie is that we won’t talk about WHY we have to steal mideast oil to survive.

And don’t claim innocence. You lied, coveted, stole, and murdered to maintain your cushy life style, and you can’t escape it by claiming you didn’t know or you didn’t participate; every dollar you make and every dollar you spend is part and parcel of the oil theft in Iraq.

What’s the use? When all but a small handful of people out of 300 million won’t even TALK about oil, you have the biggest silent conspiracy in the history of the world, bigger even than what the Nazis did to the German people in the 30s.

Ms. Cocco makes some excellent points.  However, deciding not to support an immoral act because it would cost one too much economically is not the same thing as recognizing the immoral act as immoral and then refusing to participate because it is immoral.

Perhaps our greatest lesson should be NOT to be governed by fear and to make our political choices and policies based on what is truly moral and to develop our powers of discrimination to be able to ascertain in the future when we are being ‘sold a bill of goods’ that is not factually based.

Nations, like individual people, learn and grow from their mistakes, but only if they are honest in self evaluation and have a sincere desire to strive towards doing better the next time.  To have “The Good, the Beautiful and the True” as a model is to be able to strive in the right direction.

This American had nothing to do with the Iraqi fiasco. I voted against those who favored the incursion every single time I could and strongly voiced my opinion similarly. I was severely criticized and insulted many times. Not guilty!

Didn’t learn from Korea.
Didn’t learn from Vietnam.
Didn’t learn from Grenada.
Didn’t learn from Panama.
sigh
Didn’t learn from Kuwait.
Didn’t learn from Somalia.
Won’t learn from Iraq.

It’ll take you a decade just to get your back the personal freedoms that you traded away.  If you ever do.

Sadly, the home of the brave looks more like the home of the fat and afraid.

...Rupert Murdoch, at least partially, while you are flagellating the US public. Because he owns so much powerful media, and he feels completely justified in interfering in politics for his own benefit or because he thinks he knows best, that he should not be allowed to own a school bulletin. OR you can blame the legislation that allows people like Murdoch to acquire too much power over one of the most crucial checks and balances any nation can have: a strong independent media.

Jessie James rides on…......

“sitting” on a reflex angle within a parallel

what comes next in geo-world

Concerned Mother

Charles Dow…....

I beg your pardon? ME to blame for the Iraq war? You must have me mistaken for one of those uninformed Americans. I watched FOX news every day for Brit and Bill and Shepard’s Iraq facts, like those drones that could quickly dispatch to major U.S. cities to spread biological agents and those reports that Saddam is planning to detonate large stores of napalm buried deep below the earth to scorch US troops.

Rush updated me daily on Saddam’s WMD arsenal and Ms. Coulter opened my eyes to those freedom-hating, propagandists at the New York Times.

I listened to every word Colin said at the UN and even Tivo’d the part when he held up the vial of anthrax for my friends to see. George, Dick and Condi reminded me of the mushroom clouds. Even those no-good, pacifist, liberals like Kerry, Edwards, Gore, Pelosi, Kennedy, Boxer, Wes Clark, Waxman, Gephardt and both Clinton’s all enlightened me to Saddam’s WMD.

So keep your criticism to yourself, buster. Meanwhile, us informed folk are keeping a keen eye on Iran.

http://www.operation2012.com

So when are the HEARINGS starting and the SUBPOENAS rolling out ?
That is the only way to get to the bottom of all this and the TRUTH to finally come out.
We the American people are entitled to atleast that much,don’t you agree ??

Marie’s article is TOTALLY well done and, in my opinion, accurate.

NOT IN MY NAME

I accept no responsibility for the war except for the fact I am a citizen of the U.S.A. The war was sold to me and the other citizens as an exercize in self-defense. (I still opposed it.) We now know that the regime change was in the works before 9/11, and that the intelligence was cherry-picked, with contrary information screened out. We citizens have a right to expect that our leaders will not take us into war under false pretenses. I refuse to be scolded on this. The entire gang who put this adventure together should be impeached or prosecuted.

Dwight D. Eisenhower made a statement to the effect “Politics should be the parttime job of every American.”  Much of todays’s problems in our government have to do with the fact that Americans have failed to pay attention to what is going on in their government.  Americans are making critically important decisions as to who will serve as president and in congress based upon 30 second sound bite ads.  We live in the age of information and there are no excuses for not being informed.  Ignorance is a choice and if we have learned anything from the past six years of this horribly inept administration and the lackluster crowd they have attracted, it is that the price for ignorance is a very high price to pay.  Our country will be paying for the failures of this administration for a very long time.  It is simple, you fall in love with your country and you choose leaders qualified to lead.  You do not fall in love with leaders and then turn the reigns of our government over to them, whether or not they or qualified to lead.  Know about the person seeking office.  Know about their past, it is a good indicator of their future.  George W. Bush had a past of failures, making messes of his personal life and business decisions, and continually had to be bailed out by his family.  And guess what, he made a mess of the office of president. Especially, know about the money supporting any person seeking to hold an office in our government, as it will let you know alot about who they will be answering to.

Marie raises an important point: this war would likely never have happened and the occupation would certainly never have gone on so long if ALL Americans were asked to make sacrifices to support it.

What are the policy implications of this?

First, and most obvious (and most talked about already) is instituting a draft - one that offers no exemptions (thus no opportunity for privilege to avoid). We would not be there now if there was a draft. It’s as simple as that. No congressman, no senator, no president, no big-time Republican donor would send his sons and daughters to fight in Iraq.

Second, require all wars to be funded separately from the standard budget (with caveats for emergencies, of course). If an administration and/or Congress wants to go to war, they have to issue war bonds. Make us pay for it. If we pretend to worship at the alter of the Free Market, why do we abandon those principles when it comes to foreign policy?

Republicans have trademarked patriotism and free enterprise. It’s time to make them consumers of their own product.

I was discharged from the Army Reserve in 2002 and came within a typo (true story) of going to Iraq in 1991.  I had grave doubts about the legitimacy of the build up to the invasion of Iraq and sat watching the shock & awe on TV saying to myself, we will have hell to pay for this.  I am not happy at being right.  I look at the sales pitch and the tax breaks almost as a bribe to keep public opinion and scrutiny down, made easier by a one party majority.  How ever it ends, we will be paying as a nation for this misadventure for a very long time.

Americans must realize that the Iraq war would have been a mistake even if Saddam HAD been developing weapons of mass destruction. The results would have been the same. And the UN was still investigating. There was no need for us to get involved, when we should have been fighting terrorism and finishing the job in Afganistan. So, despite the lies (remember Powell telling the UN we had PROOF - not just evidence - of Saddam’s WMD’s?), there was still no good reason to invade. But yes, this is the fault of the American people. It is our fault for electing Bush, and it’s our fault for electing the cowards and the jingoistic patriots in Congress who went along with the mass hysteria. It’s out fault for not paying attention, and it’s our fault for keeping big money in politics, which directly results in government by PR machines. But what do we do about it? Ah, THAT is the question!