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YEAH, MOLLY, LET’S SEE THAT FUNDAMENTALIST VOTE.  WE’VE SEEN THE HOUSE AND SENATE VOTE.  A POX ON ALL THEIR HOUSES.  THAT POX CAN BE VISITED UPON THEM BY VOTING THOSE SHAMEFUL LOSERS OUT OF OFFICE AND MONITORING THE VOTE.  WAKE UP FOLKS!  LET IT NOT BE IN A DANK CELL IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY, WITH YOUR BODY OR THAT OF A LOVED ONE, RIPPED, BRUISED AND BLEEDING, WITH NO IDEA WHO PUT YOU THERE OR WHY!!  IT’S HAPPENING NOW, NOW, NOW, YES IT IS.  LET’S START REGARDING LIGHT, SHALL WE!

George Bush, headliner in the freak show of a third rate “parking lot” carnival, and his entourage, the repub congress, all need a trip to the wood shed. Will an adult please put these little boys in their place and take control of this run-a-way train before we reach the bottom of the mountain?

Further comments on Comment #24959 by Seven Star Hand on 9/22 at 1:56 pm

What I mean is, I have sort of been looking around for somebody in that general ballpark. I don’t think it’s me, although I have entertained the possibility. What makes you think it’s you?

Reply to Comment #24959 by Seven Star Hand on 9/22 at 1:56 pm

Dude, you’re really the Messiah???

Molly you are great and thank you for all the wonderful insights you give us through your writing.

On October 5th the WORLD CAN’T WAIT is holding protests around the country.  Find out the one closest to you and make your voice heard. If you don’t… it means you are as guilty as the folks that are “water boarding” or committing torture AND MURDER.  What did the world think of the german people DURING AND AFTER WW II? They had the blood of 14million people on their hands. Is that what you want? Get involved and “LETS KICK THE BUMS OUT”

I wonder what will we be debating next.
Maybe the circumstances that would justify genocide?

Just the fact that this country is even debating the legalization of torture is proof of how low we have sunk. And when I say “we”, I mean only this current Bush & Co administration (including the Congress and Senate), not the majority of American citizens. It’s all about politics and power. These “good” lawmakers and their “good” Christian supporters are total hyprocrites. In their quest for control of this country, they are destroying it and what it stands for. I suggest a reading of “It Can’t Happen Here” by Sinclair Lewis. Wake up, America. It’s time to speak out.

May there always be Molly!

Here’s my first chance to thank you for NOT putting lipstick on pigs.

Comment on Comment #24781 by Frankster on 9/21 at 2:41 pm

“All I can say is, thank God I am an atheist”.

God loves atheists too, Frankster.

Took early retirement and left the US when the haze of bullshit clouding my thinking and vision became intolerable. Three months in the Middle East and once again I can think and see clearly. When I go back to visit family one last time I will be heading south and traveling light. Venezuela is looking pretty good these days. Peace, but don’t fuck around, Chucky Moreland.

Thank you for your HUMOR, COURAGE and your WONDERFUL JOURNALISM. 

I am in absolute shock that we, in America, are now at the point of “debating tourture!” Hopefully, this will be the straw that broke the camels back.  My wish is that Americians, on MASS, GET INTO ACTION!

The big lie we are told, BY PEOPLE WITH HIDDEN AGENDAS, is that people are different.  No we are not!  There is no separation.  We are all part of the human family.  If it isn’t Christian against Muslim, Christian against Judism, Catholic against Protestent, Communist against Capitalist,...it is black against white.  WHENEVER YOU LABLE ME YOU NEGATE ME. 

IS THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THIS MAINLY REPUBLICIAN CONGRESS, that spiritually sick that they can even contemplate a debate leave alone pass a bill such as the Military Commission of 2006?  How evolved is that?  Woops!.....sorry, I forgot we do have a neanderthol in the White House!

ARE THEY JUST TRYING TO SAVE THEIR ASSES, BY PASSING THIS BILL, BECAUSE OF THE ATROCITIES THEY HAVE ALREADY COMMITTED OF WHICH WE STILL HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE?

TO FRANKSTER.......George Bush was in Office and got a memo to the effect that there was going to be a terrorist attack.  That was August 6th, 2001....Only 1 month and 5 days before 911.  He was too busy, ON VACATION, to take responsibility for the PROTECTION OF the American people.  FOR THAT HE IS RESPONSIBLE!  TO QUOTE TRUMAN THE BUCK STOPS HERE! I KEEP ASKING MYSELF WHY DID HE IGNORE THIS MEMO?  Is he truly that inept? 

IF THIS BILL IS PASSED, COULD WE TRY A LITTLE OF THE APPROVED TORTURE ON BUSH, CHANEY, RUMSFELD, RICE ET AL FIRST....JUST TO MAKE SURE THEY HAVE NO HIDDEN AGENDA?  NOT SURE ABOUT CHANEY WHAT WITH THE HALLIBURTON CONNECTION!  Also the way he was drinking on that hunting trip....to the point of shooting a friend in the face....makes one wonder about his sobriety!

Is it just me or is there something insane about ILLEGALLY declaring war against Iraq and then trying to LEGALLY pass legislation to torture detainees who may or may not be part of THE AL QUEDA TERRORIST GROUP. 

WAR AND TERRORISM DOESN’T CHANGE.  IT IS NO DIFFERENT TODAY THAN THE FIRST WORLD WAR OR WORLD WAR II.  We as humans have 2000 years of history, recording our brutality.  A question that keeps bothering me is this....if the GENEVA CONVENTIONS WERE GOOD ENOUGH FOR KOREA, VIETNAM AND THE FIRST GULF WAR, just to name a few, WHAT IS SO DIFFERENT ABOUT “these terrorists” that King George wants to pass this law?  Could someone please answer that for me?

As a young woman during the Vietnam War, we then saw how transparent our Government was behaving.  We protested and helped get the war stopped.  At that time we wanted a DEPARTMENT OF PEACE AND A SECRETARY OF PEACE.  Still don’t have it....how can we honestly call ourselves a peaceful nation. 

Call, protest and vote to get everyone that votes for this bill out of office. They are unfit to govern!  The American people are and deserve much, much better representation!  Kick the bums out!!!  Chavez may just have W’s number, it takes one to know one!

There seems to be little discussion that is after the USS Cole incident, Bush had gone after Osama, perhaps 9/11 never would have happened.  He disbanded the group that was going after the creep.  I am so sick of our Constitution being subverted, The Bill of Rights totally ignored, the Geneva convention rules on torture being forsaken - what other harm can this administration do to this nation?  What we have is tyranny.  A Oligarthic tryanny.  I am ashamed of my own country.

Unfortunately that poor Canadian that Molly referred to (Maher Arar) has already had his day in our fabulous justice system when he filed suit back in 2004. (Interestingly, his lawsuit was filed under the Torture Victims Protection Act of 1991, enacted when Bush’s father was in office!) Unfortunately, Arar’s lawsuit was eventually dismissed by federal judge David Trager in February 2006. Trager said he couldn’t interfere in the case because it involved crucial national security and foreign relations issues. In an 88-page judgment, Trager wrote “One need not have much imagination to contemplate the negative effect on our relations with Canada if discovery were to proceed in this case and were it to turn out that certain high Canadian officials had, despite public denials, acquiesced in Arar"s removal to Syria.”

The last I heard Arar was appealing the decision.  In the meantime, how many times is our government going to be allowed to get away with the crimes they’ve committed by invoking “state secrets” and “national security” to get these cases thrown out of court??

This “president” AND Ken Mehlman had better spend a lot of time on their knees asking forgiveness for the killing of untold thousands of innocent lives and for sending someone’s else’s sons and daughters to do their bidding.  They righteously scream protection of undifferentiated cells in petrie dishes while at the same time have utter disregard for those of us who would benefit from stem cell research and don’t bat an eyelash at the carnage they are responsible for around the globe.  Unbelievable.

Seven Star Hand makes sense to me.

I am an American currently residing in Germany. I am appalled that my country could even consider legalizing torture. (And apropos preventive war, even the NAZIS pretended the Poles started it....)

The German Constitution has this to say:  “Die Wuerde des Menschen ist unantastbar.” This translates as “Human dignity is inviolable.” I’m for it.  Let’s try it. 

Margaret from abroad

Easy way to dispell the ‘save the child torture scenario’: You have the wrong guy in custody, you torture him all day and night he tells you what you want to hear, admits he’s in on it but cannot tell you where your child is, no matter how you disfigure him, burn him, cut him, kill him. Then you find out he was innocent and your child is dead at another’s hand, and this innocent man is dead at yours.

Is anyone going to do anything as Molly suggests?  I stopped calling and emailing my senators and representative because I don’t believe it does any good.  None.  But I feel like I have to go slap up a few posters around town or something like that.  I haven’t got the nerve to carry a sign around.

This person’s tone suggests someone is trying to be reasonable:

“...would you take the ‘moral high ground’ and spare the kidnapper from pain, thereby allowing your child to suffer...”

...but when people find themselves putting in quotation marks “moral high ground” as if to challenge its legitimacy as a motive, we’re sunk. Soldiers are expected to sacrifice the lives of innocent children OF THE OTHER SIDE in the name of “victory” (now there’s an appropriate use of ironic quotation marks) so how come the “values” dissolve when it’s your own children? There’s no way to explain it but depraved amoral desperate fear.

Frankster, are really “Prankster” or are you just out of your mind?

It is ALWAYS possible to construct some absolutely absurd scenario under which anyone would accept torture as the lesser of two evils.  So What??

Mad King George is talking about torture as a policy, as routine, despite the fact that the use of it in the last few years has been ridiculously ineffective, despite the numbers of victims.  He is clearly looking to get us going down the slippery slope where next torture is used against Americans, in America, first for “national security”, next for dissidents, as he builds his one party fascist state.

Doesn’t The Decider sound awfully close to The Leader?--Il Duce, Der Fuhrer…

This is a bad dream from I hope to wake very soon.

It is possible to construct a scenario in which torture is plausible and will have the assent of everyone in the room.  However, that is not proof that torture has a place in our modern day.  You could say that America has captured a terrorist whom we know to be part of the plot to detonate a nuclear bomb inside the States.  Would torture be applicable then?  Those who say yes are doing so under the assumption that the person captured actually has the knowledge we think he does and/or that he’s the guy we think he is.

That’s the uncertainty that prevents torture from being implimented: you cannot be sure enough of a person’s identity or knowledge to torture them.  And Bush has absolutely shown that he’s capable of kidnapping (he says “detains") people who are law-abiding citizens of the USA and other nations. 

Not to mention that legalizing torture is illegal; initiating a preemptive war is illegal.  Just yesterday I saw on CNN that the Dept. of Education is under investigation for unethical practices, that Bush’s “no child left behind” venture is as corrupt as his cabinet.

I wonder: by Jan. 21, 2009, what facet of Bush’s reign will be able to retain its credibility?

If we could have caught one or two of the September 11th hijackers prior to the attack and tortured them to get the information needed to prevent the attacks from ever happening, thereby saving nearly 3,000 lives, is anyone here actually saying that we would be wrong to do it? 

Would anyone here really sacrifice 3,000 innocent lives to protect one mass murderer from torture?

Civilians and soldiers in service of their country (who are bound by law to serve) should be protected from torture. Those who voluntarily join terror groups and conspire to deliberately mass murder civilians are not as deserving of these protections when their torture may save the lives of hundreds or thousands of innocents.

To any who still oppose torture of any kind in any case and thinks it’s a black and white issue, ask yourself this hypothetical question:

Would you torture one member of a group who kidnapped your child with the intent to sexually abuse, torture and murder your child for pleasure? If your only hope of saving your child from this fate is to torture the individual who knows where they are, would you take the ‘moral high ground’ and spare the kidnapper from pain, thereby allowing your child to suffer that horrific fate?

As hard as it may be for some of you to swallow, sometime torture is the right thing to do, when failure to do so allows a much greater evil to occur.

Just an FYI, the poster Seven Star Hand actually claims to be the real messiah in a book he published and on his website.  So it’s safe to say he’s a first class nutjob.

Dear Molly;
So happpy found this website, They don’t print your articles in this backward community (Ohio)

The consideration of torture is totally antiethical to our vision of America - we are ruled by gangsters. 

However, is our attention being diverted again by that master manipulator?  Is there not a bill being secretly passed giving access to Social Security to illegal aliens?  This is more conservative hypocricy - they say they need to reform SS because it is running out of money but then they will include people who don’t deserve t.

It’s too late.  We frogs aren’t about to jump from this cozy pot.

Yeap we are training those little terrorists, to be better terrorists. 

So Paul White, what is your address so when they come to our US shores we can send them to YOUR home!  Or better yet since MORE troops are needed at the IED Ritz Carlton, please sign YOUR kids up and YOUR grandkids! 

http://press-release.blogspot.com/

Here is a video tape shows the bombing of an I.E.D against an American armored vehicle in Heet city, causing the destruction of it, by the help of Allah. For downloading the tape please click on one of these links:

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Our US soldiers are shouldn’t be EXPECTED to be the babysitters to Kurds, Sunni, Shi’ites own in-fighting = “ CIVIL WAR “.  If this is so, then send in anyone who wants to be a BABYSITTER, icluding YOU, Paul White (pen name here at truthdig) from the Pentagon.  Get off your fat key board and put OUR government tax dollas to work by ACTUALLY WORKING during your day job.  Pack YOUR toothbrush the land of IED Ritz Carlton is waiting for YOU!  Why are we paying a government worker to monitor this site for Bush?  MORE nepotism from within the BUSH Iraq War Room. 

Mother of US Special Forces
d-green
green
rangers
seals

http://archive.gulfnews.com/articles/06/09/22/10069161.html

Published: 09/22/2006

Iraqi Kurds ready to share revenue from oilfields
Reuters

London: Iraq’s semi-autonomous Kurdish regional government said it stands ready to share revenue from its oilfields with the rest of the country, but wants the final word on how and with which partners they should be developed.

Ashti Hawrami, Minister of Natural Resources in the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG), added on Wednesday the KRG aims to enact its own petroleum law in the coming weeks and secure new oil deals with foreign companies during October.

“We have no intention of withholding revenue from the central government,” Hawrami said at a briefing for potential investors in London.

“We will not take a dollar extra than our fair share, but we expect our fair share.”

Concerns about how Iraq’s oil resources the world’s third biggest will be shared has been a source of discontent among Sunni Arabs, who fear autonomous deals by Kurds in the north and Shi’ites in the south will cut them off from Iraq’s oil wealth.

But Hawrami said this should not be a concern as oil reserves in the Sunni region were roughly equal to those of the historically Kurdish areas.

However, most of the Kurdish reserves are in areas currently outside KRG control, such as the Kirkuk oilfields that pumped some 800,000 barrels per day before the US-led war in 2003.

A December 2007 referendum will determine whether Kirkuk city and the surrounding area should come under KRG control. Arabs in the area accuse Kurds of driving them out in advance of the referendum but a Kurdish official denied this.

Hawrami said the KRG was prepared to cooperate with Baghdad on the management of existing, already-producing fields, but the KRG had sole power over its new oilfields.

“Control of the new fields is the exclusive right of the regions and we are not going to budge on that. We will control them 100 per cent,” said Hawrami.

The pro-torture crowd makes me sick.

Who’s this minister who’s pro-torture?  Are they all completely insane?

Apparently.

As far as I’m concerned, John McCain has sold his soul for a few measly votes—especially since he knows personally what it means to be a prisoner of war. The evangelical voters are okay with torture? Well, based on what I’ve experienced of the evangelicals I’ve encountered, I’m not at all surprised. The fact is that a goodly number of them are the biggest bunch of fear-ridden hypocrites you’re ever likely to find. Many of them never even think to question what they’re told by either their religious leaders or their political leaders—after all, to paraphrase Galileo, what use was it for God to give us the capacity for logical thought if He didn’t intend us to use it? Not to mention the vitriol that many evangelicals clearly feel towards gays, liberals, the Katrina victims, etc.—they may deny it even to themselves, but it’s not at all difficult to detect when one considers the subtext of the words they choose to use. I don’t know what Bible they’re reading, but it seems nothing at all like the one I was raised with. A talking parrot can be taught to recite Scripture, too—but that doesn’t mean that he understands it.

I think there are some Republican senators that can be charged with war crimes along with the president.Passing a law legalizing torture I think can be construed under article 3 of the Geneva convention a crime against humanity and a war crime if these tortures are committed after passage of this bill.

I hope these monstrous idiots would know that this legislation can be rescinded as easily as it was passed. When you gentlemen are finally booted out of office for the venal and vile creatures you most certainly are. Pack your bags for a trip to the Hague.

John, nowhere did I see where anyone said the three Abraham religions had a monopoly on violence, but to try and sell these religions as a roadmap of how man needs to live seems a road to nowhere......as we are finding out with our degraded environment, constant wars, and most of the world´s people living in terrible poverty with no hope of a better tomorrow.
...AGAIN. REPEAT AFTER ME...BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM...... IF THE RESULTS ARE EVIL OVER AND OVER, CAN THE INTENTIONS HAVE BEEN GOOD.

Seven Star Hand -

Stereotyping tends to overlook uncomfortable facts. Stalin, Mao, Pot Pol, Nero, Cagigula, and others were not followers of what you term the Faiths of Abraham.

NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TORTURE ANOTHER—EVER!  TO DO SO, IS TO LOSE SIGHT OF WHO WE ARE AND WHO WE ASPIRE TO BE.

The most important battle is always the battle for hearts and minds.  It is never the physical battle on the ground.  America needs to keep its head high and stand for freedom and individual rights to the rest of the world.

“If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy” ~ President James Madison

You apparently praised Republican Senators John McCain, Lindsey Graham and John Warner too soon.  From the reports available on Friday September 22, it looks like they too finally sold out human rights.  In fact, it sounds like the entire Republican Party now has a pro-torture plank on its platform which is being built out of the scrap lumber it has made of the Constitution.

As far as the so-called “torture-lite” concessions supposedly wrung from the Prez by the so-called liberal Republicans (an oxymoron if there ever was one), it still depends entirely on what regulations he chooses to write, on his honesty in reporting and on his willingness to actually obey the law.

Moreover, have you stopped to consider that we are now “legalizing” things that before Bush’s election would have been deemed truly unspeakable.  Even before their brief “rebellion,” which appears to have only been for show, the three Senators were only opposing a relatively small part of Bush’s broad plan to dismantle human rights and liberties across the board by warrantless searches, automatic assumption of guiltiness of suspects, secret prisons, permanent imprisonment without trial, denial of counsel and prevention of judicial review.

For instance, captives are now supposed to be able to see the evidence that convicts them, at least a heavily redacted version blacking out anything deemed “classified.” But, that before throughout out our entire nation’s history prior to Bush, that was a right, not a privilege.  Besides, Bush has long demonstrated a preference to go so far as to “classify” almost everything to be “classified” and “confidential-restricted” information.  He would probably like to declare public phone books and street signs classified to “protect national security.” I am indulging in hyperbole, but barely.

In just five unjust years, we are so far from the land of liberty we once were, that the place is almost unrecognizable.  How ironic that all the Republican violations of liberty, democracy and freedom are being done in the name of those goals and allegedly being justified as necessary to save them.

Hello all,

All three Faiths of Abraham spawn violence and hypocrisy

Christians and Jews can smugly lecture and chastise Muslims about violence, because followers of Islam are poorer, more oppressed, and thereby forced to defend themselves in cruder fashion. On the other hand, the rich and powerful nations of the west can fund, train, and equip state of the art militaries and intelligence services to do their bidding, by proxy. Likewise, smooth-talking politicians expertly equivocate about acceptable collateral damage to the homes and lives of poor people in other lands. With so many dollars spent, why don’t Muslims and others simply shut up and accept being exploited, oppressed, and massacred for such nobly expressed western ideals?

Those in representative democracies tout their governments as extensions of the citizenry. Accordingly, so are the militaries, intelligence services, corporations and other proxies used to expand and maintain the Judeo-Christian Empire. By extension, the citizens of western nations are much more responsible for the actions of criminals, killers, and torturers paid for and authorized by democratic institutions than people who live in less democratic nations who have much less control over the actions of their leaders.

It is undeniable that the Bush administration, its cohorts, and supporters are mostly Christian. Without the blind support of so many Judeo-Christians, the Bush administration would not now be embroiled in the current struggle to retroactively legalize torture, illegal domestic spying, and other crimes. By US law, hiring a proxy to murder or assault someone is still prosecuted as murder and assault. It is undeniable that the militaries and intelligence services of the west that kill and torture at the behest of democratic representatives are hired proxies of Judeo-Christian citizens.

Regardless of attempts to shift blame, history clearly records the widespread crimes of Christianity. Whether we’re talking about the abominations of the Inquisition, Crusades, the greed and genocide of colonizers, slavery in the Americas, or the Bush administration’s recent deeds and results, Christianity has always spawned great evil.

So, the next time any Christian, Jew, or Muslim, whether president, prime minister, religious leader or follower decides to chastise others for their failings, stop to consider that the logs in your own eyes have blinded you to the full truth about all three faiths of Abraham. Religion has utterly failed to solve humanity’s problems because it is a strong delusion that spawns error and evil instead. The sheep’s clothing of duplicitous ideals is an obvious deception used to hide the truth. Nonetheless, the veil is readily pierced by discerning the fruits of their deeds.

Here is Wisdom...

“Are you insane?” That’s exactly what Bush is and lo and behold there is nothing in the Constitution about impeaching a president because he’s insane.  We all know that a president has to have a yearly physical.  How about a yearly “mental.”

Congress, Dems and Repubs alike,have repeatedly said that impeaching Mr. Bush is off the table - no high crimes and misdemeanors - no impeachment.

Logical conclusion?  An amendment requiring all federal government office holders, executive AND legislative branches, to submit to a “mental” every year that they’re in office.

Forget about anthrax, airplanes into buildings, nuclear weapons, bombs in train stations, the enemy has infected DC with a mysterious virus which causes certifiable insanity.

“If God is on our side, who’s on Gods side?”, Jim Wallis’s “God’s Politics”. Hopefully God is listening and has mercy on all of us if not George will torture it out of him............
Chris Tandy

That book you are all quoting from or talking about in one form or another....Bible, Koran, Torah.....same song, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd verses.....says BY THEIR FRUITS YE SHALL KNOW THEM.......So, what have been the fruits of these beliefs over a 2000 year period.

Molly, you are my hero. This is only one of many articles I have read of yours that make me laugh, cheer, become angry, upset and try and do something about this mess we are in. Thanks

People did unChristian things in Christ’s name just as Bush is doing unAmerican things in our name.Good guys don’t torture, have proxy torturers, or even set in motion events that would cause their “?enemies?” to torture. Good guys have friends not enemies.

Torture has always existed.  But it took Christianity to REALLY refine it, put a fine edge on it, take to new heights.  It took devilish determination and devilish creativity to actually have some artisan build an iron boot filled with spikes to turn a foot to jelly, or an Iron Maiden, or thumb screws.

Then there was The Rack. This replaced wild horses because now you could control just how slowly the victim was pulled to pieces.

Then there was burning at the stake.  Christians didn’t invent it, but they took it to new levels of pain, using dry wood that wouldn’t smoke, but would put out much higher heat, and making sure the victim could breathe, so she (usually a she--called a witch) would feel the flames cooking her and not be able to succumb to smoke asphyxiation.

All these satanic inventions, and more, are the gift Christianity has brought to the world.  They were totally justified--after all, they were rooting out terrorists, OOPS!! (heh, heh) I meant heretics.  If the victim didn’t confess, it was proof the devil was shutting their mouth.  If the did, well, they condemned themselves.  No mechanism to determine innocence.  And the property of the victim was forfeit--and the interrogator got a cut!

This is what we are debating.  How we, Americans, are even CONSIDERING this as a debatable issue is a crime.  Mad King George is confessing to Crimes Against Humanity, and that he INTENDS to continue committing those crimes, all under the very transparent cover of “keep America safe”.  Quite frankly, I’m wondering who’s going to keep us safe from Mad King George!

Each step is SO much like Germany in the 30’s, when Hitler used the LAW to eliminate rights and freedom.  Just like the bastard in the White House.

There are no noble cavaliers in the American political establishment in these times of fear-mongering. There are only the neo-Nazis and the hypocrite machiavellians! All of them, in one way or another, are collaborating in turning America into a brutal police state! All of them are responsible for the soon-approaching downfall of America.

The fact that there are debates and points of view on “torture” is in itself a clear sign that this nation has lost its moral compass. Torture is evil through and through and there should be no points of view on that in a civilized society. That’s why we have a devil and most notorious terrorist sitting in the White (turned black) House for six years, and it seems he is going to complete his second stolen and / or bought out term in office without a real outrage from a slumbering and morally defeated nation.

Perhaps America needs a few imported Hugo Chavez types to waken it up from its disturbing slumber.

I think the world of Molly Ivins, but really:

“I wonder how high up the chain of command a civil suit can go?”

Oh, I dunno. Does “Paula Jones,” “Sexual Harassment,” and “Bill Clinton” clear things up for you?

If bringing down an American President through spurious civil litigation only requires a never-substantiated allegation of an “inappropriate” suggestion in a hotel room long ago, then who needs war criminals? Wouldn’t just any old celebrity gossip bullshit whatsoever do just as well?

Come on, please. How can anyone in their right mind mistake America for a civilized country with a serious government and laws that actually work? Huh? How does unfounded hope like that always triumph over experience?

I mean, like, surely we can’t impeach Sheriff Dick Cheney and Deputy Dimwit Dubya precisely because now, finally, at long last, we actually have several good and necessary reasons for doing so: the best since Spiro Agnew and Richard Nixon.

Dear Molly

Ijust loved one of your writings about Ann Richardson, if politics had more like her this would be a much better world.  I especially like the part about “IamMrs. Clark.

Marge, Vancover, Washington

How about having a Comdander in chief who has not a clue about war, you know Georgie Jr. did not even know enough about planes let alone how to conduct a war, of course Clinton did not have any service either, but at least Al Gore did see some combat.  Clinton also was a very smart person, it is something to go from one of the smartest presidents to a clueless wonder.

Marge from Vancouver, Washington

Jesus would not torture anyone. He is the ‘good cop’ half of the good cop/bad cop biblical team known as the Father and Son. Now his daddy, God the father will send your unbelieving ass straight to hell to burn in eternal torturous fire, if you don’t pledge allegience to him his son, Jesus.

After all, if God would let his own son get tortured on the cross, do you really think he will spare you if you reject his get-out-of-hell-free offer for the faithful? 

So yes, the God of the bible is clearly OK with torture.

All I can say is, thank God I am an atheist.

think about yourself, america.  with no legal prohibitions to torture and being incarcerated without a trial we can all look forward to this treatment.  just think our country is holding and tortuing citizen of another country.  these citizens have not been afforded any legal assistance.  there crime, who knows? it does’nt matter they have been named “terrorist”.  i’m against the war, hate “w”.  do’nt sing “god bless america” if i do’nt agree with all of this will “they” put me in jail?  maybe in the further this can be true.  our anger at what is happening is nil.  it’s going to be you next

MOREOVER THE TOPSIGN: Chavez calling W “the Devil” Or BornAgain Presidential Torturphila?

CARDINAL CINEMA
Short Clips / Long Reflections:

YOU CAN ALMOST HEAR HIS ‘AROUSAL’…

Viagra for Presidential Sadism? satire aside, pay attention to W’s
extravagant verbatim ‘litany’ of Saddam Torture techniques in State of the Union address a couple of years ago…his ‘tone’ has an entirely new meaning in today’s context:

http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm ?zi=1/XJ&sdn=politicalhumor&zu=http://www.ebaumswor ld.com/presaddress2.shtml

And then here’s another hi-truth factor ’satire’…

Dear Born-Again American,

It’s come to our attention that some of you are experiencing certain moral “qualms” in regard to our President’s Urgent Need to have all interrogation tools “on the table” in order to protect our Homeland from terrorism.

Please understand: it’s high time to forget the misleading, buzzworded rumors of “drills” “socket wrenches”, “water-boarding” & [old-school] bagged-headpummelling–though “classified”, the results of this Administration’s American Data Extraction [ADE] techniques not only speak for themselves but are indeed steadily ‘evolving’–offering new and effectively-legal means to enhanced National Security.

And while I’m not at liberty to disclose the ‘experimental cutting edge’ of these programs, suffice it to say we have some of the best & brightest hard at work arriving at improved ways to both stay within the Nation-of-Laws-not-men–moral-legal framework and yet: ‘push the envelope’, as it whir [sic].

THE EXECUTIVE CALL FOR LEGAL “CLARITY”

We’ve now reached a point where “de-ambiguation” in the law would usefully and creatively ‘expand’ the “Killer-App” Research & Development platform of ADE. And no, in fact Scripture never morally addressed “the details” of this point per se; furthermore, in other (related) areas, we’ve been the most ‘forwardly moral-leaning’ administration of modern times, ensuring the PRE-personal respect for the very beginning of human life, right down to stem-cells. We absolutely and completely demand this respect for the unborn, EVEN EMBRYOS SIRED BY KNOWN TERRORISTS. So as you can see, our adherence to faithful Christian conduct is “uncompromised”, misleading appearances notwithstanding (likewise the well-intentioned but uncomprehending dissent of Colin Powell and John McCain, etc).

GENEVA UNCONVENTIONAL MORAL THINKING BEGINS
…OUTSIDE THE BOX

To those who are “squeamish” about these important developments (considering them against the Geneva “Conventions”, etc) and who dare “decline to render unto Caesar” that which, as Scripture reminds, is “his” (of explicit necessity including ADE in this War on Terror) and even presumptiously ask “What Would Jesus Do?” I remind you that in His ‘resume’ Jesus claims no actual ‘reality-based’ ground-zero ‘experience’ with a “War on Terror”.

And let me be clear on this point of faith and piety: I have PERSONALLY (behind “closed doors”) seen this PResident (for example during the Energy Task Force Meetings) “on his knees” to ‘better receive” the WILL of “Higher-Father Authority”.

AGAIN: Remember what Our President Does: Life is Precious.

This is unforgettably borne by heart in him. It is moral nonsense to imagine a leader so protective of
prenatal respect in effect ‘turning his back’ on ‘manifest’ Humanity itself by doing anything less than what remains RIGHT, GOOD, and TRUE. That’s afterall what he’s always been about, no less than Our Homeland Itself.

Please do then: Rest assured–we have in This President a ‘Heaven-sent’ Leader “Handmade” and Ever-Overseen by The Creator Himself.

As The Christian Faithful, then, how could you not be called on to “vote accordingly” REPUBLICAN?

As God “Chose” him, didn’t He also choose Our PARTY?

Thank you for your hopefully renewed, or continued, Faith!

In Christ Almighty, Nevermore Sincerely~

Ken Mehlman
Chairman, Republican National Committee

Religion should have no place in government, espcially in a country that claims to have freedom of religion...but the problem is that most if not all people in America and people around the world see’s the US as a christian nation. And there are nations that we see as religiously shaped...like “Iran”..

This creates an us “christians vs. them Islamic” and it stricks to the core of christians...and it is this same fear that this administration is using...when ever BUSH says, “Islamic Facist”, he’s arguing the us “christians vs. them Islamic’s”....One can not be unbaised or objective when he is stereo typing groups of people, based on their religion, make and creed. There are those who argue that Islam preaches death to non-believers...but they fail to understand that not all Muslims are facist, and there are moderates, agnosticts and maybe even ateist…

The talking points and power influence from christains becomes a factor in the shaping of our government.  However, these same supposed qualities, do not and has almost never decided our governments foriegn policies...except when dealing with Isreal

Hypocrisy is also found when the same christian shaped government, and the christians who voted them in office, practice and preach conflicting issues to the bible.

Jesus, was a pacifist..he preached peace and corrected the old Symaritan law of “an eye for an eye”.  Instead, he said that one should also turn the other cheek, when struck...and that one should give to others if asked of their robe..Jesus lived and preached to the poor, the sick and the bad( prositutes/gamblers), and told the rich to give their wealth to the poor. As a matter of fact, Jesus was soo peaceful and such a pacifist, that thoses opposed to him argued his messiah qualities, because the true messiah was supposed to lead the people into war against their enemies…

And again, here is evidence that this is true...since when did Jesus say that we should torture our enemies or suspected enemies?

How can christains approve of the war, and approve of torture?  Doesn’t this go against everything Jesus stood for?  Either they have forgotten the teachings of the bible, or been made so scared by this administration that they are willing to have their morals comprimised..

On the Geneva Conventions and law within Bush wants “Clarification”, no scratch that, he wants “Clarity"…

This from article III…

No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever. Prisoners of war who refuse to answer may not be threatened, insulted, or exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind.

Sure sounds fuzzy to me!

Sorry, Molly, I forgot to mention I have all your books, have been reading your column for more years than either you or I need to discuss here.

these people we are torturing. they have been held prisoner for many years now. what could they know that would be even remotely useful to us? bush is one sick fucker. he just feels all biblical, you know that eye for an eye kind of bullshit. he is like of like saddam’s sons uday and qusay. let’s have a torture party and prove that we are better at it than they were.

I suggest that we each make a grand inquisitor hood and send it to George Torqemada Bush, so he can properly dress the part.

I love you Molly Ivins.

2 YEARS AGO I WENT TO VISIT MY SON IN ANOTHER COUNTRY. HE HAD BOUGHT THE 1ST AND 2ND SEASON OF 24 HOURS. I WATCHED THE FIRST SEASON AND TOLD HIM I THOUGHT THIS WAS PURE PROPAGANDA SELLING THE NOTION THAT TORTURE OR ANYTHING ELSE IS JUSTIFIABLE IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY. WAS I CORRECT.....YOU BET.
NOW, I AM APPALLED AT HOW WELL IT WORKED. MORAL OUTRAGE HAS BEEN COVERED OVER BY THE FEAR OF NOT BEING PATRIOTIC ENOUGH, OR ACTUALLY QUESTIONING OUR WONDERFUL LEADERS. HOW INANE CAN YOU GET.
PATRIOTISM IS TRULY THE BASTION OF THE LIAR AND CON MAN.
EVEN ARGENTINA, WHOSE JUNTA REGULARLY TORTURED ITS YOUNG DISSENTERS THEN THREW THEM OUT OF PLANES INTO THE OCEAN, DID NOT MAKE TORTURE LEGAL. THEY KNEW THEY NEEDED TO COVERUP AND LIE FOR AS MANY YEARS AS NECESSARY FOR THE MAMMAS AND DADDIES TO DIE.

Our country has been tortured for a long time now by this so called president and his journey to make our country a communist country.  This just puts the cherry on top of a piece of crap cake.  All the more reason to know who you are voting for and get up and vote.  Do we want a democracy or a communist country?

waste of time to vent, time better spent making sure family and friends are registered to vote and are aware of the current agenda in Washington DC, remenber who voted for what in the House and the Senate,

Torture incompatible with fundamentalism?  The Inquisition used more than waterboards or sleep deprivation when handling accused withes and heretics.  The inquisitors were also quite professional (don’t you dare question) and enjoyed legal imunity.  The Malleus Maleficarum of 1486 remains the classic guide to such methods.

Today’s professional hyper-interrogator (torturer) knows, first, to convince supervisors that a detainee is lying and needs some “stimulation.” The next task is to convince the supervisors that the subject’s shrieks and screams are “deceptive” and prove the need for more work.  Several “sessions” and several months go by.  This can be quite lucrative for the contractor.  A few detainees may be lost, but atributed to cardiac arrest or “spontaneous asphyxiation.” Messier outcomes can be attributed to “attempts to escape” or just hidden and a bag and dumped in the river.

“Success” is when the exhausted detainees babble listlessly, “Yes, just as you say: I am al Qaeda, I worked for Saddam, I authored 9/11, and the nukes are ... where am I suppose to say?” If the detainee confesses to have planned some diabolical mischief {name any you wish), that can be chalked up as a disaster prevented. 

Interrogate anyone vigorously and long enough, and the detainee is sure to admit to something.  Even if not, what more privileged way to vent rage?

Bush supporters have no qualms about brutality because they make no presumption of innocence or habeas corpus.  Regardless of what Padilla did, let your nightmares suggest what he might have done.  If any detainee is presumed guilty of the worst you can imagine, why spare any retribution?

The Rev. Louis Sheldon could argue that, if it worked for Torquemada, why not let W do it too?

Evangelical Christians supporting torture?  is that possible?  It appears that Christians say “do as jesus would do” and they support the killing in Iraq, based on an illegal war in which our Christian president deceived all Americans.  Even God told Bush to go to war so Bush must be right.  Let us look in the scripture to see the morals of religion.  All forms of life destroyed because of one imperfect species - Genesis 6:5,7, 7:23.  Ok, that makes sense!  Human sacrifice commanded by God - Leviticus 27:28,29.  yeah, that is a good one!  God agrees that Jephthah sacrifices his daughter as a thanksgiving - Judges 11:29-40.  You have to admit, Jephthah had that one coming.  You go get’em God.  God sanctions slavery and a man selling his daughter - Exodus 21:2- 6,7,...what happened, did we fail God on these two?  A person to kill their own family for a difference of religion - Deuteronomy 13:6-10.. that is another good one, I think this is one of the reasons for terrorism.  I may be wrong! 
God demands death for anyone not circumcised - Genesis 17:9-14....thanks God they fixed me at birth!!  Praise the lord!!
God burns people to death for complaining - Numbers 11:1....I bet we can bring that one back, my gf never stops complaining and i am getting tired of it.  Praise Bush, ooops, I mean, praise God!!  God kills a baby for its father’s wrongdoing, ignoring the father’s pleas - 2 Samuel 12:15-20.  Ok,,now that I look at what is in the bible, I do believe God (Jesus/Holy Spirit) would support torture and therefore, we must believe it is the right thing to do.  Sounds logical to me.  Lets all torture..yeah!!!  Water boarding for everyone!!!

I still can’t get over the fact that the US is TALKING ABOUT ALLOWING TORTURE!
It seems unreal that a once great nation, the moral leader of the world is talking about torture.
What else will this administration do?
I find it laughable that these are the same people screaming about “activist judges” ruining this country when this administration wants to torture and listens to our conversation with illegal wire tapping.
Whom are the people destroying this country ? Not the judges it is our very own president.
I think the very people advocationg for these “non torture” practices should allow themselves to be used as examples so we can see for our selves.
I nominate Bill O’Rielly to be first for water boarding!

These 3 Senators will cave in to the Decider.
They always do. There isn’t a bushel of guts
combined in all Republican Senators. They all
have the spine of a jellyfish when it comes to
standing up to the Moron.

I’m an evangelical Christian; that’s a spiritual position, not a political one.  Louis Sheldon claims Evangelicals will only support candidates who support torture?  (My thin voice is shrieking up in dog registers now.)
“I am not ashamed of the gospel.” (Romans 1:16)but I am deeply ashamed of those who pervert it for their own political agenda.
I want my country back!
I want my Jesus back!

You go Girl. This requires that we stoop working and start marching again. It is insane to watch these people degrade the hard earned moral steps forward we made with the Civil Rights, Women’s and Anti-War movement. If I had any reitrement I would quit work now and join whatever movements are availale to stop these people from ever getting elected again.  It is a pleasure to get up early to write grants to fund a small non-profit agency in Richmond, California and read big Ideas from a big brain and know that somewhere, we are together.

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