I have attempted to read most of the posted material.  Those of you who can still get out and vote should.

The people (our elected officials) are lying to us on a daily basis and depend on our gullibility to base our decisions on the crap in the “controlled” media.  If you really want truth, and think that you can handle it.  Vote them out of office and put someone in that you trust.

The option is to eat the crow that is being served you, and enjoy.

I don’t like to be called a “conspiracy” theorist, b/c let’s face it, the Bush Admin’s timeline and explanation of the 9/11 debacle is also a conspiracy theory.

People who don’t believe it’s possible for the gov’t to be involved in complicity of the attacks should read 4 books by 3 authors before they dismiss the 9/11 truth movement as “nuts” as Alexander Cockburn called us on Counterpunch

1. Nafeez Ahmed - The War on Freedom: How and Why America was Attacked, September 11, 2001 (and his follow up book The War On Truth: 9/11, Disinformation And The Anatomy Of Terrorism)
2. David Ray Griffin - New Pearl Harbor & 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions
3. Jim Marrs - Terror Conspiracy: Deception, 9/11 and the Loss of Liberty

And for good measure pick up Michael Ruppert’s
Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil

On 9-11 I was working in an office about a mile away from the Pentagon.  After the WTC attacks many of us went to watch the news in my bosses office, which overlooked the pentagon.  I heard someone say “What the hell...” only to turn around and watch the plane slam into the pentagon with my own eyes. 

Watch all the fucking internet videos you want, there was no cruise missle and the theory only exists to identify idiots.

Zena, 18449, congrats.  You have just qualified for the Phobe Award, making you a Zenaphobe.  The Mexican nationalists are not immigrating --they are involved in taking their country back from the Mexican billionaire beneficionaries of privatization, and they will overcome a U.S. inspired fraudulent election correctly—as we should have done twice before.  If you don’t want Mexican immigrants here, let them have their own
country back, and they will have prosperity sufficient to prosper at home.  They don’t want to leave their homes any more than you do, but being underfed, under-employed, and under-educated is a strong motivation to look for work where their money has gone, verdad?  Meanwhile, let’s give our support to the “nationalists” in their fight to get their country back from Archer-Daniels-Midland and other U.s. “nationalists” who have penetrated Mexico economically and send THOSE unwelcome immigrants back home.  Oh, yes, by the way, good luck picking peas and harvesting lettuce and broccoli for less than miinimum wage and no Social Security coverage.  That IS what you want to do, isn’t it?

Bush IS a terrorist, when he makes an oath to uphold and defend the constitution, and then proceeds to take away American’s rights, send our troops into danger where they are not wanted, and then deliberately looks the other way, as Mexican nationalists sneak into our country, they may not fit what the Administration ‘calls’ a terrorist, but they are, and if the invasion is allowed to continue, you will see the effects of the ‘war’ Bush has waged on America.

I don’t put anything past them. They do it to other people in other countries for the buisnessmen. And alot of them own the companies or stocks in it in those countries. Outsourcing they call it.

Re:Comment #18027 by John Earl on 8/12 at 4:02 pm

>” ... but experience tells me that although this Administration is dedicated to keeping the truth away from the average citizen, it could never have acquiesced in so much human slaughter and kept it a secret. Especially when so many people would have to have been involved.”

Again, I repeat myself, rational doubters are NOT saying “the Administration” was involved ... that—again—is a strawman argument.

We are (I am) saying is that it MAY have been possible for a small group of black flag operatives to harvest a crop of ideas (I mean, if it was easy enough for the amateur video makers to find these things, why not others pre-911?) from prior Pentagon/CIA ops planning and guide (assist, nudge, anything?) the implementation of the 911 event.

And there are some threads that could be pursued to answer these questions, and which have NOT been pursued satisfactorily—at least to some of us—as yet.

I personally think of this as an interesting plot for making a blockbuster movie to open on 9/11/2011 ... but I don’t think it is outrageous or even counterproductive for we the people to use our speculations to demand the truth from our government in the face of the government’s OBVIOUS lies.

You see, if we don’t start demanding to know what really happened (and believe me I KNOW simple incompetence can produce weird scenarios ... BUT the issue IS knowing!!!) then we leave ourselves open to accepting disinformation when it really, REALLY, REALLY does matter—like WMD in Iraq.

Fractals teach us that the small patterns are repeated in the large patterns in the cosmos ... just another interesting thought.

CJS,

I like Louis Lapham too. Ain’t it great when does a piece in Harpers?

But, have you ever thought that maybe God just loves fat-cat profiteers better than you or me? They’re a different breed. Living well is the best revenge, afterall. 

Robert Baer in The Nation on 9-11 conspiracies, September 27, 2004:

Yes, the CIA was formed, in essence, to conduct and foment conspiracies, but even within the vaulted offices of Langley, a secret like that couldn’t have lasted twenty-four hours before it had been leaked to the Times, the Post and at least two of what were then the three major TV networks. And so it is with Griffin’s Pearl Harbor hypothesis. Like most conspiracies, it has the allure of a deeper truth, but experience tells me that although this Administration is dedicated to keeping the truth away from the average citizen, it could never have acquiesced in so much human slaughter and kept it a secret. Especially when so many people would have to have been involved.

I do not believe the government’s conspiracy theory.  The concept of a 124” wide plane with 2 six-ton engines, 46’ high, disappearing into a hole, before the Pentagon roof collapsed, 16 feet round, boggles the mind.  No marks appeared on the lawn, as evidenced by many photos, so the plane did not hit the ground; the flat, fragile graphite nose of the 757 is supposed to have punched small holes through three rings of 9’ reinforced concrete, which is impossible.  The plane, which performed incredibly complex maneuvers that professional pilos say are almost impossible, was piloted by a guy who flunked out of flight school because he could not handle a Cessna 150, which compares to a 757 like a bicycle to a race car.  And, anyway, where is the plane that hit WTC7, the third steel-framed building in history to supposedly collapse from fire.  The first two are WTC1 and 2. There are literally hundreds of unanswered questions such as these, and our government has not attempted to answer them.

The various conspiracy theories are a distraction. I can believe that some in the administration knew about the impending attacks and let them happen. Whether or not that is plausible, the immediate follow-up has all the earmarks of conscious manipulation. Rather than calming fears, the Bushies did everything possible to exacerbate them. Then there was the immediate attribution of the attack to Al Qaeda based on the magic passport—Mohammed Atta’s passport, found miraculously undamaged at the WTC site within two hours of the attacks. Certainly the administration’s response to the 9/11 Commission would support a cover-up of just this kind of manipulation.

In any legal investigation, the first question to ask is cui bono, who benefits? Louis Lapham made that pretty clear in his essay in this month’s Harper’s: changes in stock prices between July, 2003 and June, 2006—Lockheed $52 to $75, Boeing $33 to $77, ExxonMobil $36 to $65, Chevron $36 to $66 and of course our good friends Halliburton $22 to $74 and Fluor $34 to $87.

Saturday, August 12, 2006

911: The “Do Nothing” Conspiracy ... as a movie

Here’s the pitch:

A small group of Neocons (SGN) high up in the Bush Administration learn of an Al Qaeda plot to hijack planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and the White House.

The SGN’ers recognize this as the perfect event/opportunity avoid a protracted political struggle to implement the Project for the New American Century, and begin to immediately distract attention from the Al Qaeda plot. This is easily done because of turf battles between the State Department, the CIA, the FBI, and the Pentagon.

But they can’t simply leave it entirely in the hands of the terrorists ... so they tweak the operation a tad ... like make sure a plane does not reach the White House, limit the number of casualties in the WTC plus assist the the collapse of the buildings, and—because the Pentagon is such a damn hard target to hit correctly (the section recently rebuilt for the task)—send in a airplane as a drone.

But oops, one or more of the SGN’ers realized that he/she/they can make a lot of money by placing put orders on the stock of the companies that will be involved BEFORE 9/11 ...

And oops again, that damn outer wall of the Pentagon doesn’t collapse on impact ... so it becomes harder and harder to make believe that a 757 hit it ...

And oops, some kids start putting the pieces of the puzzle together ... in a video no less ...

And oops, the NORAD tapes are released ... and the 911 Commission heads say they were lied to ...

But not to worry ... the public is convinced there was no active conspiracy to plan and execute 911 from the beginning to the end involving the whole Bush Administration ... so everyone breaths a huge sigh of relief and lives happily ever after ... with the riches God showered on them ... but oops they realized they couldn’t collect on the put orders, so they just have to benefit from the common good under the guidance of the Invisible Hand.

Whadaya think?

http://ncswede.blogspot.com/2006/08/911-do-nothing-con spiracy-as-movie.html

Re: Comment #17822 by Mad As Hell on 8/11 at 4:11 am

“I don’t have my head in a sack.”

(Note: The italics are mine to help separate the quotations from my comments.)

Maybe not, but since this is not one of my ad hominem comments, I won’t go there.

(Please note that the definitions I provide are for our younger readers who may not have developed their vocabulary yet ... and the definitions are all from dictionary.com ... I try to remember to spell out first use of acronyms in a comment, also.)

ad hom·i·nem adj. Appealing to personal considerations rather than to logic or reason.

The problem I have with Mad As Hell’s arguments against conspiracy theories is that he creates strawmen and then proceeds to easily knock them down.

<b<strawman</b> 2: a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted.

From: Comment #17646 by Mad As Hell on 8/10 at 3:00 am

>”Take another look a Farenheit 9-11: See Mad King George sitting there struck dumb, like a deer in the headlights?  He’s all sizzle and no steak.  We saw then, and again during Katrina that ‘The Decider’ becomes ‘The Frozen’ and can’t make a decision. The inability to mount an attack on these planes comes down to two things: What president will order an attack on domestic flights? How could he make a decision when it was clear his brain froze rock solid at ACTUALLY having to deal with a real crisis?”

I know of very few of the rational doubters (whom Mad As Hell calls “conspiracy buffs") who think GW was in the loop on anything(?) at the time, let alone a black flag plot.

From: Comment #17708 by Mad As Hell on 8/10 at 12:34 pm

”The Warren Commission’s report was mostly junk except in one point: Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK as a single assassin.  The fact that they got there by ignoring evidence they couldn’t explain just means they were right for the wrong reasons.”

What many of us are trying to point out is the perpetual pattern of misinformation as opposed to providing the transparency required for a democracy to survive. Is there any wonder that the Neocons thought they could get away with their lies about WMD in Iraq?

Shouldn’t it bother us that we are NOT being told the truth as our government knows it even on matters that would NOT threaten our security?

What if a black flag group took advantage of the obvious signs that Al Qaeda WAS going to attack AND the Pentagon’s incompetence to nudge along the event that members of the Project for the New American Century (PNAC) considered necessary to avoid a protracted struggle for putting America (the USA) on the path PNAC outlined? And KNEW that we the people would settle for misinformation.

Isn’t it about time that we the people demanded answers that held up under elementary examination? For the very simple reason that if we don’t, we keep getting lied to ... and some lies really matter and may mean that we really do get it wrong.

Paul, years ago I saw a movie of an Air Force test crash of a F-4 jet bolted to a rocket sled plowing into a reinforced concrete wall at high speed. The entire plane is obliterated into dust and tiny bits, with no pieces left larger than 1 inch, except for the tips of the wings which were slightly wider than the wall and went past. That is what happens to aluminum when it hits something like the Pentagon wall directly at high velocity.

Since flight 77 hit obstacles on the ground and impacted the ground itself which decelerated and damaged the plane before striking the wall, some of it survived in larger pieces, mostly steel parts but a few small sections of fuselage which can be seen in the photos I linked to in my last post. Most of the aluminum was simply vaporized into dust or burned up later, exactly as would be expected by anyone knowledgable on the subject.  If you think a lack of large debris is unusual for a plane that crashed into the reinforced wall, you are simply uninformed about the science of the subject.  You can still find that crash test test video if you search the internet for it.

It’s very telling that you assume I am a Bush supporter because I reject the fallacious conspiracy ideas you have. That suggests that you approach this not a question of science but an issue of politics and you view the evidence through the prism of your personal political beliefs. I think you want to believe in a conspiracy Paul, which is why you ignore the evidence that doesn’t support your ideas and why you are making assumptions about things you are clearly unqualified to make.

There is absolutely NOTHING about the pentagon crash that is unresolved or inconsistent with the official account. Not one thing Paul, to anyone who is competant on the subject and has seen all the evidence. A vast body of experts who know all the facts and have the engineering and scientific competance to interpret the evidence have concluded that Flight 77 hit the Pentagon. In light of that, it is foolish and arrogant for an amateur to deny it based on flawed assumptions and heresay that they have found on websites and videos made by other unqualified amateurs. 

If you look for conspiracies because you want to believe in them, you will ‘find’ them everywhere.

Frank (#17752) it is obvious you didn’t take the time to Google the documentary, “Loose Change: 2nd Edition”, and watch it. If you had many of what you consider certainties concerning the events of 911 would become doubts. To make it easier for you here is a link to the film

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5946593973848 835726

Do your duty as a patriotic citizen to do due diligence, then come back and explain the numerous inconsistancies between the ‘official’ report, and what the evidence clearly shows. I learned back during Nixon’s time that questioning authority was to become the norm, and it is especially important to do so under the current power-hungry regime we have in this country today. The , “You’re either with us or you are the enemy”, mentality is a dead issue currently since that places the majority of Americans now in the enemy camp, because they have finally begun questioning the authority of this administration, the result being BushCo people getting failing marks. I suspect you are a staunch Bush supporter, but nothing says you have to continually back a losing horse. View the film with an open mind, if it is possible for you to do so, then come back and see if you can keep from choking on the lie of the Official 911 Commission Report. Aside from the amount of debris (or lack of) at the Pentagon site, there are numerous other unanswered questions that no amount of administration ‘spin’ can explain logically. Whomever believes they can fool all the people all the time are naught but fools themselves. Now get busy and do your homework , son.

It’s easy to see how the evangelicals compute that we’re in the end times. We are availed in this life on earth, the opportunity to figure what works and what doesn’t, and free will. We also have been given, supposedly direct from God if you believe, certain instructions on how to act, like say the ten commandants. Problems arise with freedom to choose when whole blocks of people choose to believe whatever suits their purpose, like that they are the chosen. This is racism in other words. In the earliest days of our history there were always a few who stood up to say, hey, the others are people too, and they were called Indian lovers or maybe, n----- lovers and regaled as turncoats by the self proclaimed and usually better armed chosen ones. Most white supremacists are descended from white southerners don’t you know, just defending their traditions. No matter what side we’re on, we always demonize the “others” so we can kill them in good conscience. Looking at how the free will experiment is going, Jesus, if we’re to believe his words, would be turning over in his grave right now if he had one. We have those who have chosen to believe, “all men are created equal” for example on one side, and differing groups who believe themselves to be the chosen on another, and the two are in perpetual conflict, no end in sight, except if you will, thee end. It’s easy to see how certain ones who have chosen to believe that they are the chosen ones would want to throw in the towel. It seems that if the Lord would just take away these so-called chosen ones as foretold, then the meek could get down to finishing out the free will experiment as intended.

What about the terrorists that were sighted on the grassy knoll?

David’s post is so stupid as to defy logic.

I don’t have my head in a sack.  What I can do is differ between the imaginary conspiracies that thrill buffs who have NO true critical capabilities, and the true, obvious conspiracy to turn our country into a feudal kingdom.

Hillary Clinton was mocked when she talked about a vast right-wing conspiracy, but who’s laughing now?  They, with less than 35% of the country actually supporting them have managed to take over statehouses and then gerrymander the districts so that state after state is “solidly” Republican in the House despite the majority of citizens are Democrats.  They have taken over the courts forcing fights to accept the MOST radical right-wing judges, using recess appointments to make them a fait-accompli when all else fails.  They have politicized EVERY government agency, no matter how small and no matter how innocuous to prevent ANY policy coming out that is critical.  And they have started unnecessary wars, destroyed our civil liberties and undermined our right to vote.

ALL these things are easily and well-documented and not really subject to objection.  With all that, why do the buffs waste their time on phony conspiracies that they are also behind 9/11?  They didn’t have to be.  I am convinced that 9/11 completely and totally blew up in their faces (they had cut any and all anti-terrorism efforts as late as 9/10) and then, with Karl Rove, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld (et al) as the master minds OPPORTUNISTICALLY used the tragedy to accelerate the implementation of their fascist takeover of our nation.

This November is crucial.  They MUST keep the House AND Senate if they are to complete the takeover of America and transition us from free democracy to feudal empire.  If either goes Blue, then they must either blatantly effect a coup, or accept that they have failed--this time.

My head is in no sack, pal!

I think it’s a good idea to get out of Dodge, fer sure!!!  I live in an extremely rural area - try to be as self-sufficient as possible - I’m pretty worried, and I’ve NEVER been any kind of doomsdayer or conspiracy theorist...it’s just plain a weird old world and I want away from it!
I advise anyone who can - head for the hills!!!
The Loonies are running the Institution!

MAD AS HELL: Yes, we are in agreement.

The most interesting book on the failures of the 9/11 Commission may be Peter Lance’s “Cover Up: What the Government Is Still Hiding About the War On Terror.” I say “may be” because I haven’t actually read the book, so I don’t know if Lance is onto something or just full of crap (or both).

But if I understand his central thesis correctly, he argues that pre-9/11 intelligence failures were the result of incompetence and deliberate refusal to share info among different intel agencies.

So far, so good. But then he also argues that the 9/11 Commission deliberately structured its hearings to suppress the most damning evidence of these failures and that some key players on the commission were chosen to aid and abet this process. (But if the commission was a well-orchestrated cover up, then why have Kean and Hamilton stepped forward with such impunity?---obviously no vow of omerta was taken or they’d have been whacked.)

Here are Lance’s own words:

“The last official body created and funded to get a ‘full account’ of the greatest mass murder in U.S. history has cherrypicked the evidence, skewed the findings, covered up compelling evidence of negligence on the part of the U.S. intelligence community. When they set out, the commissioners said they would conduct the most thorough and complete investigation ever. They haven’t. Instead they’ve tried to give us a false sense of assurance they got to the bottom of what went wrong. It’s a fraud upon the American people.”

As an article in Scoop notes: “Lance claims that in 1996, high-ranking FBI and Justice Department officials turned a deliberate blind eye on documentary evidence provided by a high-ranking mob snitch that a key Al Qaeda terrorist, Ramzi Yousef, behind bars for the original bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993, was actively plotting to blow up what turned out to be TWA Flight 800, which exploded 13,000 feet in the air above Long Island in the summer of 1996, killing all 230 passengers and crewmembers on board. After a 16-month investigation, the FBI blamed that tragedy on mechanical failure. Given that Yousef’s uncle, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, was one of the masterminds behind the September 11 plot, Lance contends the FBI blew yet another golden opportunity to prevent 9/11 from ever occurring.”

(Sorry, Lance, Ramzi Yousef may have been plotting to blow up TWA Flight 800, but I saw a documentary on the disaster which showed the fuselage after it had been carefully pieced back together and there is NO CONVINCING EVIDENCE that it was struck by a missle or that the explosion was due to anything other than a mechanical failure---yet some people interviewed in the doc still swear they saw a “flash” shooting up near the plane just prior to the explosion.)

Lance continues: “They haven’t admitted that any person failed anything. Instead they talk about ‘institutional flaws.’ Well, institutions are filled with individuals, spear-carriers and policymakers alike. This is akin to saying, ‘We have a problem with Enron, but we’re going to let the company keep operating with the same people at the top.’”

The Scoop article concludes: “But most fundamentally, Lance is angry because the commissioners didn’t go further in their investigation. By limiting most of their inquiry to events that occurred since 1998 - and by setting the start of the 9/11 conspiracy in 1998 rather than 1995 - Lance charged that members of the commission never acknowledged, let alone addressed, a host of missed opportunities that would have allowed federal justice officials to stop the lethal chain of events that concluded with the attacks upon the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. ‘And that’s a cover-up,’ he said.”

Oddly, the book has been embraced by elements on the left (Counterpunch) and the right (frontpagemag)---the latter mostly because Lance suggests the intelligence failures originated under the Clinton’s watch becaudse the Clinton Justice Department declined to share info with law enforcement. Yes, when all else fails, blame Bill!

Sorry, conspiracy buffs: he DOES NOT suggest that the Bush Crime Family actually engineered the disater---this is, after all, the original gang that couldn’t shoot straight. What he does suggest is that government officials who fuck up try to cover their own and one another’s asses. That’s why I said that Official Versions of the truth should be treated with reasoned skepticism---notice that I said “reasoned.”

Here’s an excerpt from an interview with Lance
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=16795 :

Lance: “The second half of “Cover Up” is a painstaking analysis of the 9/11 Commission and its effective whitewash. I go into great detail with evidence of how”

“-the Commission was hopelessly skewed on both the right and the left;”

“-how the staff was riddled with conflicts of interest—almost half of the staff members were alumni of the very intelligence agencies they were asked to judge;”

“-how both Democrats and Republicans cherry picked evidence and limited the scope of the investigation to 1998 forward in order—I believe—to ignore the culpability of the FBI, CIA and other agencies for failing to stop Osama bin Laden’s 12 year juggernaut;”

“-how, in effect, the fix was in on this Commission from day one—there was an intentional decision to limit the damage across three presidential administrations and eliminate ANY accountability or blame for what I call the biggest intelligence failure since The Trojan Horse.”

“The second half of the book chronicles this whitewash and focuses particularly on Dietrich Dieter Snell, the former Asst. U.S. Attorney (AUSA) who co-prosecuted Yousef in the 1996 Bojinka case.”

“Snell, who could have answered both of the questions left over at the end of my first book [1000 Years of Revenge: International Terrorism and the FBI], should have been a WITNESS before the 9/11 Commission, but instead they hired him as Senior Counsel and one of the Team Leaders.”

“It was Snell who took my “testimony” after I ‘testified’ before the Commission on March 15th, 2004. When I showed up in the closed door conference room at 26 Federal Plaza (the same building that houses the FBI’s NYO) Snell was accompanied by Marco Cordero, an FBI agent on loan to the Commission.”

“No stenographer was present, nor was there a recording device. Snell, merely pulled out a small notebook and started jotting down notes. I was warned ahead of time, by a source inside the Commission that more than 90% of the witness intake was anecdotal like this—that the image of people like Condi Rice delivering sworn testimony in open session—was more of an aberration.”

“Anyway, later in this interview you’ll understand what it sham it was for somebody like Dieter Snell to take my “testimony.” In my mind he was one of the fixers, hired early on to sanitize the Commission’s final report.”

FP: “Briefly illuminate for us the story of terror mastermind Ramzi Yousef and TWA 800.”

Lance: “The first half of Cover Up is the most explosive. I present probative evidence that the crash of TWA #800 on July 17th, 1996 which killed 230 people, was an al Qaeda act of terror—a bombing that was effectively the second biggest mass murder in U.S. history.”

“I prove this using the FBI’s own documents: #302 memos, and, for the first time I shatter the FBI/NTSB K-9 theory—the only explanation for the presence of high explosive residue in the wreckage absent a bomb.”

“I had alluded to this in ‘1000 Years of Revenge’—along with a chapter, by the way, which linked Ramzi Yousef and KSM via Terry Nichols to the Oklahoma City bombing.”

“This was long before Jayna Davis’ intriguing book ‘The Third Terrorist’ which was the object of one of your earlier interviews. She agrees with me on the Yousef-Nichols connection, but we disagree as to Yousef’s paymaster. She suggests it was Iraq. I say OBL and furnish proof in the form of evidence showing that Yousef’s Manila cell was financed directly by bin Laden via his Saudi brother in law Mohammed Jamal Khalifa.”

“However, in 2003, in neither case—OKC or TWA #800 did I have the level of evidence I uncovered in the Spring of 2004. Much of it is in the pages of Cover Up or on my website under FBI #302’s.”

And here’s more on Lance as mentioned by Sam Karmilowicz, a recently retired career officer in the U.S. State Department’s Bureau of Diplomatic Security, in a profile in Counterpunch:
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn03092006.:

“Another prominent figure suspected of quashing the truth is Dietrich L. Snell, the Senior Counsel and Team Leader of the Official 9-11 Commission. Peter Lance writes extensively in his books ‘Cover Up’ and ‘1000 Years for Revenge’ about Snell’s shenanigans in cherry-picking evidence and excluding credible witness testimony, including information collected by the Defense Department’s Able Danger Unit concerning pre-9/11 sightings of Mohammed Atta, one of the nineteen suspected hijackers.”

“These allegations are now resurfacing in the news. The Associated Press (AP) reported on February 15, 2005 that U.S. Representative Curt Weldon, the vice Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee advised the public that the Able Danger Unit had identified Atta more than a dozen times before the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Weldon also reportedly said the secret team found ‘a problem’ in Yemen two weeks before the deadly Al Qaeda attack on the USS Cole in 2000, of which the ship commander was not told. Former (unidentified) members of the 9/11 Commission reportedly dismissed Weldon’s findings.”

“My experience in the Philippines also appears to overlap Snell’s involvement in the Murad case that Snell prosecuted. The Cooperative Research 9-11 Timeline (http://www.cooperativeresearch.org) contains a very peculiar account entitled: Early 1998:Prosecutors Turn Down Deal That Could Reveal Bojinka Third Plot.”

“The entry said: ‘Abdul Hakim Murad, a conspirator in the 1995 Bojinka plot with Ramzi Yousef, Khalid Shaik Mohammed, and others, was convicted in 1996 of his role in the Bojinka plot. He is about to be sentenced for that crime. He offers to cooperate with federal prosecutors in return for a reduction in his sentence, but prosecutors turn down his offer.”

“Dietrich Snell, the prosecutor who convicted Murad, says after 9-11 that he doesn’t remember any such offer. But court papers and others familiar with the case later confirmed that Murad does offer to cooperate at this time.”

“Snell claimed he only remembers hearing that Murad had described an intention to hijack a plan and fly it into the CIA headquarters. However, in 1995 Murad had confessed to Philippine investigators that this would have been only one part of a larger plot to crash a number of airplanes into prominent U.S. buildings, including the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, a plot that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed later adjusts and turns in the 9-11 plot.”

“While Philippine investigators claim this information was passed on to U.S. intelligence, it’s not clear just which U.S. officials may have learned this information and what they did with it, if anything. [New York Daily News, 9/25/01] Murad is sentenced in May 1998 and given life in prison plus 60 years. [Albany Times Union, 9/22/02]”

“After 9-11, Snell goes on to become Senior Counsel and a team leader for the 9-11 Commission. Author Peter Lance later calls Snell ‘one of the fixers, hired early on to sanitize the Commission’s final report.’ Lance says Snell ignored evidence presented to the Commission that shows direct ties between the Bojinka plot and 9-11, and in so doing covers up Snell’s own role in the failure to make use of evidence learned from Murad and other Bojinka plotters. [FrontPage Magazine, 1/27/05].”

“I know who the intelligence officials were at the U.S. embassy at the time of Murad’s arrest and interrogation. These are the same officials who discounted the threat information I received about Rana. Do these people have something to hide? You bet they do!”

“Peter Lance was entirely correct when he told CNN anchor Lou Dobbs in a December 5, 2005 interview that the 9-11 Commission was essentially ‘a whitewash’ and that it intentionally limited its investigation to 1996-forward. He said the Commission moved the plot’s origin ‘to 1996 from 1994’ and in so doing omitted information that linked Mohammed Atta to the terrorists responsible for the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center. Lance said Congress should put Dietrich Snell under oath to find out why the 9-11 staffer prevented the Able Danger information from getting to the 9-11 Commission.”

So, Peter Lance: fearless investigator or bullshit artist?

This REALLY starts getting scarey ... reading all the “facts” proving that a Boeing 757 hit the Pentagon ... then looking at a couple of photos on:

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreu rs_en.htm

Look at the photo in Question No. 3 showing the collapsed wall of the Pentagon and the positioning of the green firetruck on the lawn.

Then look at the photo in Question No. 7 showing the wall before it collapsed in relation to the firetruck. If that is the same firetruck in the same position and the wall that later collapsed, then I think we have some problems with the “facts” supporting the government’s story line. (And photo No. 7 on this website matches the on the next website below ... so I don’t think it was altered.)

AND if you look at the diagram of a Boeing 757 on the website:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/pages/911_pentagon_757_p lane_evidence.html

You will see that the main engines are outside the landing gear span of 24 ft ... so while the body exterior width is only 12 ft 4 in ... how did the engines get sucked through whatever small hole there was initially in the outer wall? ... which even the government supporters say was a maximum of 20 ft. Does the airplane as liquid model hold up to pull two titanium-alloy engines outside a 24 foot span with their own combined span of what? 9 ft + 9 ft = 18 ft ... though a 16 to 20 foot (max) hole in the wall?

And we already can say with a relatively high degree of confidence from the release of the NORAD tapes that we already know the government has lied to us ...

I don’t get it ... and of course there wasn’t a government-wide conspiracy ... that’s a strawman easily knocked down ... and maybe it all might have been incompetence ... but what if most of it WAS Al Qaeda + Pentagon incompetence but there was just a little bit of black flag hanky-panky? Whatever ... doesn’t everyone kind of wonder what the hell REALLY happened on 9/11? I mean, we know the 911 Commission didn’t find it all out.

I can understand that the engines could have been consumed inside the Pentagon ... but how did they get in there?

I’m willing to look at an explanation that answers my questions. I am willing to be proven wrong. I do not have a pet theory. Pentagon incompetence is not an unfathomable concept for me ... I was around through the Vietnam War and I am certainly here for the War in Iraq ... and I know Muslim Fundamentalists have some bad actors, terrorists even.

And when we have the answers to the Pentagon event, we can start in on the collapse of Building 7 at the World Trade Center. I mean, this isn’t going to go away until we get it resolved ... or have lost our freedom.

Another thing, with the release NORAD tapes and the now clear discrepancies in the government / Pentagon story line ... it is NOT irrational for citizens to want to get to the bottom of this.

The loonies have taken over again.  I read Bob Scheer’s article above, and I’m still scratching my head how one gets from there to the government actually pulled off 9/11.  Most of the “theories” outlined in these posts are even less than theories.  They are questions posed by people who do not have the knowledge or understanding to even comprehend the answer.  Please read the latest Popular Mechanics.  It will answer your theories (and PM is not exactly a tool of the Right).

If I question why it is that no one has ever seen Robert Scheer and Superman in the same room, that doesn’t mean there is a conspiracy afloat to dupe the public into thinking that they are the same person.  Like any crackpot theory out there, one should actually understand the concepts being posed and figure it out themselves, rather than simply go forward and quote something which they know nothing about.

Its these kinds of inane arguments that make the left look nuts.  Didn’t the first posting on this topic talk about the need for “intelligensia”, that takes a measured look at things?  They clearly are not posting here.

In resonse to both TruthPlease and CHANCENY I think they both need to remember the quote by that most famous Cleveland Indian, if not, professional baseball player - EVER, Mr. Satchel Page: “Don’t look back.  Something may be gaining on you.”

Time enough to sort that stuff out later!  Right now we gotta get the hell out of Dodge!

I read “mad as hell’s” dialogue.

I hope that the sack that he has his head in is strong enough to hold it when the fed cuts it off.

Anyone still denying a Boeing 757 hit the pentagon on 9/11 is either a complete moron, or totally incompetant when it comes to research. They are not even worth debating.  There are many photos of plane wreckage in the pentagon including steel landing gear struts, wheel and tires remnants, parts of large turbofan engines, and fuselage sections that have been matched to the make and model of Flight 77. The damage to the outside of the building is consistent with computer models of the crash, several credible eyewitnesses saw an American Airlines 757, and both black boxes were recovered from the pentagon wreckage. The totality of the evidence is overwhelming.

Why do people like our poster Paul say there is no wreckage from flight 77 in the pentagon? Are they deliberately lying, or have they just made no effort to find the readily available proof? Want to see photos of flight 77 wreckage? For starters, here are a few:

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

But the obvious question to the conspiracy buffs should be, If American Airlines Flight 77 didn’t crash into the Pentagon, what did happen to the jetliner and all its passengers? Did it vanish into thin air? Occam’s razor, folks. Learn it, apply it.

To paraphrase an old saying: Just because one doesn’t believe in conspiracy theories doesn’t mean there aren’t conspiracies.  I believe that the reason so very many folks are willing to believe these things is because, subconciously at least, they are pretty sure we’ve all been lied to about something REALLY important. And in every other area you care to look, this administration has lied and lied and lied, then tried to spin or coverup their lies.  It’s not that other administrations didn’t lie - it’s a matter of degree - these guys are completely over the top into the stratosphere.  Whatever the reasons, Bush & Co. did their utmost to prevent any inquiry into what happened on Sept. 11 - in the name of national security???  What a crappy, moronic reason, and people were willing to let him get away with it!!!  What is more vital to our National Security than to know the TRUTH - the real truth, not the politically convenient “truth” - so we can do something to prevent it in future?  These people cry “Truth” while they lie and cheat - they cry “Religion” while they betray every commandment and instruction of their Savior - they cry “Patriotism” while they gut the economy, alienate the entire world against us, and leave smoking ruins to our children and grandchildren - Obviously they need to learn the definition of Truth, and quick!  Until then, everyone must do as much researching and reading between the lines and using the brain God gave them instead of just swallowing the crap being spoon-fed off the tube.

When you say ‘conspiracy’ most people think of the vast array of theories circulating for the past few years.  The conspiracy I believe in is the conspiracy of silence.  The media has shamefully endorsed all WH policies, fed us the constant diet of fear-laced brownies, encouraged us to ‘stay the course’ under the leadership of a retarded fundamentalist wannabe cowboy whose ranch is a cattle-free pig farm where bullshit piles up amidst the ever expanding brush in constant need of clearing.  Yet, there, in beautiful 100 o/o Texas in August, they swarm like locust, just to get a photo-op with the prick!  I believe, with all the surviellance, spyware and other bugging devices these manipulating masters of mendacity have constructed to aid their cause, mucho dirt, personal pecadillos, dubuious financial involvements, calamatous marriages or maratial infidelities or even children who could embarrass, have been carefully catalogued and used as potential blackmail to promote fearful silence and smash all dissent.  Otherwise, why would the press withhold vital information, allow Saddam/bin Laden linkage to go unchallenged, give passes to disgraced lobbyists and defrocked politicians ala Newt, and seek these scumbags out to cravenly broadcast their sage advice to Americans?  I can’t imagine all journalists, reporters and broadcsters admire Bush & co and concur with the war-mongering policies that have weakened our security at home and made crap of our stature in the world.  The 9/11 commission, itself a reality only in spite of Bush & co who fought even it’s concept tooth and nail, have rasied more questions and answered next to none.  The only way to quash conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 is to delve into all the contradictions, misrepresentations and outright lies which have steadily been poisoning our take on reality with great assistance from a cabal of corrupt disgustingly greedy war/hate/fear mongers. It’s called TRUTH - and it doesn’t entail such hard work to find, if you care to look.  Thanks to journalists that stand tall against such stacked decks of deception and dig till they uncover the TRUTH.  We can take it!!  Thanks, Mr. Scheer.

I have truly begun to believe Mr. Forest Gump’s momma in regard to President Bush - stupid is as stupid does.  However, that does not include the VP, Mr. Cheney, he is evil, truly evil.  And, unfortunately, the rest of our governmental senior leadership (both in and out of uniform) as nothing more than a bunch of scyophants.  Incompetent scyophants - at that!!!

Kibble:
PLEASE go read what I wrote: we aren’t in disagreement (I think).

The Warren Commission’s report was mostly junk except in one point: Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK as a single assassin.  The fact that they got there by ignoring evidence they couldn’t explain just means they were right for the wrong reasons.  But the NOVA study showed clearly how the bullets could have hit JFK and Connelly without any magic dancing bullet (Stone, Garrison, et al be damned).

At the WTC, the “swallowing” is my metaphor for how the 2nd plane went into the tower..it seemed to be swallowed and then poured tons of jet fuel into the fire that weakened the structure, causing the pancaking that brought the tower down. All the conspiracy theories I’ve seen about the missiles and all are PURE garbage.

Yes, the fascists working for Mad King George were able to manipulate a gullible, compliant, ignorant and SCARED public into believing the Saddam/Al Qaeda connnection, DESPITE hard, solid evidence that they were blood enemies.  I don’t deny that.

But did the Rovian Neo-Cons plan and bring about 9/11?  Hog-wash! As clever as they are, they aren’t THAT visionary!  Plus the risk if it leaked (and it always does--this isn’t 1934 Nazi Germany with the Reichstag fire) would be FORCING even the far Right in the House and Senate to impeach.

Re Comment #17646 by Mad As Hell

You wrote, “Did all you conspiracy buffs even READ the article?  There is SO much that is unanswered that you don’t need to go to wild Kennedy-esque conpiracy theories to find incompetence, arrogance, opportunism and cold calculation.”

I’m not sure to whom you’re referring here, but since I did mention the Warren Commission report on the Kennedy assassination in my post, I should clarify my meaning (which I thought was already clear, but. . .)

1. The Kennedy asssassination generated any number of theories----some superficially plausible, most simply laughable or mad---about who killed JFK. In referencing Warren, I wasn’t concerned with the legitimacy of any of these theories, i.e., whether they were true or false. My emphasis was not on the CONTENT of official reports such as the Warren and 9/11 documents but rather on their FUNCTION, which was, as I said in paraphrasing Dwight Macdonald, to exorcise the demons of uncertainty.

The purpose of any such document is to create an Official Version of events, speaking in the voice of Authority, that will marginalize alternative versions of those events. The alternative versions of those events are most often bogus any way, but what they at least accomplish is discouraging people from settling into complacency and mindlessly accepting whatever lies and distortions are being promoted by the other Official Versions of reality that may come our way.

2. For the record, I think the star Kennedy-assassination conspiracy theorists---Mark Lane and Jim Garriosn primarily---were full of it. I also think Stone’s “JFK” is a ridiculous movie. (See http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/jfkmovie.htm for a good debunking.)

Nor do I think a plane “never” flew into the Pentagon or that the second plane was “swallowed” by the tower or any of the other 9/11 nonsense.  And I thought I’d made it clear that, in my estimation, Kean is an honest, brave, and admirable man.

3.Yes, of course there was enough “incompetence, arrogance, opportunism and cold calculation” on the part of Bush & Co. before and after 9/11.

But you somewhat backhandedly confirm what I’ve said here. “The connection that Bush, Cheney and Rove tried to make between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein is SO tenuous and SO weak and full of holes that it had to be an after-thought.  Had they planned it in advance, the link between Saddam and the attack of 9/11 would have been solid and clear, like it was to Al Qaeda.  They had to come up with a SHOWER of fake evidence after the fact to try to prove the danger of Iraq, and they really couldn’t.”

But the “tenuous” and “weak” “after-thought” is all that our boys needed, since the public had been primed to accept the Official Version of that ludicrous connection, despite the absence of any conclusive or even credible evidence. As of (if I remember correctly) July of this year, an overwhelming majority of the public STILL believes there was a link between Saddam and 9/11.

Santayana said that “skepticism is the chastity of the mind; it should not be relinquished too easily.” (What a touchingly old-fashioned metphor!) Apart from Mac Daddy Dubya’s always-ready stable of ho’s (Coulter, Horowitz, the fundies), most of us have had to, as it were, go to the mat to keep our mental virginity intact against the relentless horndoggery of Bush’s serial rapists. So of course those of us who can still walk are a little punch-drunk.

In short, I’d rather have a questioning, even slightly paranoid electorate that regularly distrusts its government’s motives and pronouncements than the kind of comatose Good Citizens who currently loll in front of the big screen and jerk their heads in agreement with whatever comes sliming out of Tony Snow’s piehole before they sink back into their American-Idol-induced stupor.

Five years later and Osama bin Laden has still not been
indicted for 9/11 and it still does not even appear on his FBI and INTERPOL wanted posters.
If we have his “co-conspirators” in custody and they have given evidence against him why no indictments?
Why does the FBI still say there is “no hard evidence” bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks?
Also why did the 9/11 Commission exclude all references to the NORAD Aerospace Reporting System orders that went into effect April 12, 1996 that required immediate notification of the President, Vice President, Secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the event of a hijacking?
Why did they not publish the images and eyewitness accounts of the fifth airplane, a four engine white jet, involved in the
9/11 attacks that was reported by several news networks at the time and has never been identified?

I’m really pleased to see since my comments (#17524) other people with their eyes wide open have come aboard on this blog. Would it be that if we could prolifirate some of this information to red state lemmings, and alter their thinking, then we might have a chance to change the mis-guided course BushCo has led us on, and recover our country & democracy from these obviously fascistically inclined creeps.

We should all probably take heed to the Obrador followers in the recent election/sham election in Mexico. These are people who have not truly had a democracy in their country for many years/decades, yet seem to understand our constitutional system even better than many Americans, who have grown up with the fundamentals of such a system since their early days in school. I seem to remember that it is our DUTY to caste aside oppression whenever encountered, and to risk our sacred honor, liberty, and even our fortunes (or lack of) to fight tyranny whenever encountered. The Mexican people have nothing so they have nothing to lose, while complacent Americans THINK they stand to lose much by upsetting the status quo. Little do we realize they will gain more than we have by standing united against the tyranny of a stolen (or attempted anyway) election, while we go as sheep to a slaughter of democracy, and we stand to lose everything.

911 was a sickening travesty of justice, and an attempt by the powerful to gain complete control of the entire world. What is even more sickening is WE let them get away with it. Insidiously they have garnered control of OUR airwaves, then foisted utter nonsense upon us hidden behind a veil of patriotism. Remember the line, “You are either with us or you are with our enemies”. Hogwash!!! The new paradigm is, “You are either a BushCo person or you are a patriotic American”. It is long past time that we factually found out what happened on 911, who caused it, and what we should do to the people really responsible. My favorite motto now has become, “Impeachment---No, Indictment---hell yes!!!”.

Just like with the Warren Commission there are too many unanswered questions and we can ill afford to wait any longer to resolve what happened almost five years ago now. I challenge all Americans, and members of the press especially, to begin asking the tough questions, and refuse to accept, “Oh, it’s a matter of national security, so we aren’t going to answer that question” as a satisfactory answer. “We the people” ARE this nation. We are the ones national security concerns, and we have a right to know. When someone hides behind the secret veil of ‘national security’ is this evidence they have something to hide?

Did all you conspiracy buffs even READ the article?  There is SO much that is unanswered that you don’t need to go to wild Kennedy-esque conpiracy theories to find incompetence, arrogance, opportunism and cold calculation.

Too many people (including people I know) saw the second plane hit and be “swallowed” in the building.  It was built to withstand a 707, not a 767, which is much bigger.  I’ve seen those supposed “conspiracy” crappy videos that purport to “prove” something or other.  You gotta want to believe that these Al Qaeda terrorists werent’ smart enough to figure it out on their own, that such an elegantly evil and simple way to attack us was beyond them.

Take another look a Farenheit 9-11: See Mad King George sitting there struck dumb, like a deer in the headlights?  He’s all sizzle and no steak.  We saw then, and again during Katrina that “The Decider” becomes “The Frozen” and can’t make a decision. The inability to mount an attack on these planes comes down to two things: What president will order an attack on domestic flights? How could he make a decision when it was clear his brain froze rock solid at ACTUALLY having to deal with a real crisis?

There’s something called Occam’s Razor, which conspiracy buffs ignore.

Calling Tom Kean a stooge for Mad King George is ludicrous. Kean represents the GOP that MKG has been trying to banish and purge--those with brains and some morality who actually BELIEVE in our Constitution, even if I disagree with many of their policies.

That OBL and Iraq were connected by Rove’s agit-prop? Sure! We witnessed it, and witnessed the sheeple who only watch Fox/Pravda buy into that lie.  Did Bush plan on Iraq from the day the USSC gave him the presidency? Sure!

But the biggest hole in the conspiracy theory is one you can drive a truck through:  The connection that Bush, Cheney and Rove tried to make between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein is SO tenuous and SO weak and full of holes that it had to be an after-thought.  Had they planned it in advance, the link between Saddam and the attack of 9/11 would have been solid and clear, like it was to Al Qaeda.  They had to come up with a SHOWER of fake evidence after the fact to try to prove the danger of Iraq, and they really couldn’t.  Just days before, in early March 2003, former President Jimmy Carter in a major speech, said that invading Iraq would be a tragic error.  Like all of Carter’s predictions it had two problems: 1) It was deadly accurate 2) Everyone ignored him.

Was there a conspiracy in the WH to create 9/11? Absurd!  The evidence you are looking at is easily impeached and ignores harder, solider evidence.

Was there a conspiracy to get us into war in Iraq long before 9/11? Yes, unimpeachably so. The evidence is there, clear for anyone left of Nazi-Ann Coulter to see.

Robert Sheer joins the community of disinformation writers on 911.  the 911 truth movement is closing in.  the hard work of individual activists, film makers, politicians, scientists, citizens, engineers, alternative press have made the establishment press obsolete on this issue and as such may sink the entire mainstream news media. Everything they have written on 911 is obsolete, 5 years of lies.  38% of Americans and the entire world knows that 911 was an inside job.  Kean is just running for cover and you’re going to see a lot more of that. They are scared.  Concealing evidence, perjury.  Just in time a book comes out, just in time the israeli debacle to distract us from 911.  I predict a Bush assassination to further distract from 911, then the storm troopers will descend and all the beds in the internment camps across the country will be made.  It is obvious on the face that 911 was an inside job.  Sheer must have seen the dvd’s.

Machiavelli, many centuries ago, wrote that any leader who wants to keep his citizens under control, MUST create an outside enemy.  That way, he can explain where all the money’s going (It’s a war, sonny - none of yer business) - bypass any inconvenient laws in the name of “national security” - destroy anyone who stands up and says ‘Bullshit’ - abandon basic Constitutional principles to help his personal agenda (and make a LOT of money for himself and friends) ....oops, got carried away thinking about GW. It’s an age-old political tecnique, rehashed by Karl Rove - a guy who stayed awake in History class.  Nothing is new under the sun, but if you never heard of it because you cut History or slept through it, then it seems new! Guess that’s the real reason they cut the funding for Education.  Some of us DO know our enemies - don’t know how much good it does, knowing, though. Any way to change things has been systematically cut off at the pass. Let’s hope Diebold machines all have a simultaneous meltdown a week before the election!!!!!

That’s d’ O.C. in spades.  Rove is not an intellectual?  Feith is not an intellectual?  Bush is a Kennebunkport “cowboy” mask on the fascist intellectual body of the reactionary right.  We citizens of the U.S.A. have suffered a coup de etat by the fascist right which is now trying to consolidate its gains, but the people will not fall for mischaracterization or fascist war.  Fascists have run Texas for years, but they have just recently been able to strip us of our democratic rights and begin the drive toward a fascist government.  How many degrees do Bolton and Wolfowitz have between them?  And that Old Cow-Hand f’m the Ri-O-Grand, Dr. Condoleeza Rice, don’t cook biscuits on the old chuck wagon.  What a ridiculous way to look at the world.  What a dangerous way to divide the electorate.

Re: Comment #17542 by Kevin on 8/09 at 10:40 am

<Quote>
What the debate over conspiracy theories seems to miss is something that this story and all the others that are accumulating say loud and clear: that the government’s story about what happened that day, and what led up to that day, and what military actions were undertaken afterward, simply doesn’t line up with reality.

Whether it’s a deep conspiracy, a panicky effort to cover up incompetence, calculated manipulation for the sake