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This New Yorker article by Seymour Hersh really blew my mind!

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821f a_fact

I read the two articles and found there is more information then I expected.  Its amazing how underhanded this plan for War has been and continues to be.

I think Israel has to fight their own battles.  I am not opposed to them destroying the nuclear capabilities of Iran.  We do not need to be involved in any further occupation of either Iraq or Iran.

I was suprised to see the refence to treason in the “Next War” article.  I think there are probably a number of areas where the neocons in our legislature along with their commerades in staff or intelligence positions have collaberated to deceive, defraud, and otherwise rob the middle class taxpayers of America.  I truly hope they all are exposed and procecuted.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060828/alterman

Eric Alterman’s Nation article about the Neocon dreams of extending the war in Lebanon reinforces the impression I got from the Rolling Stone article on the “next war.

“http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/10962352/ iran_the_next_war

I don’t get it. How can anyone complain that Israel is moving in to Lebanon?  As long as the rocket and missles continue to reach Israel then they will secure the land neccesary to remove the threat.  They will not just stop and let these idiots fire rockets that have minimal guidance into populated areas.  Israel attempts to minimize the colateral damage.  Its hard when the opposition hides behind children.

I think Israel has superceded its power.  Do they really think getting back 2 soliders is worth the murder of hundreds of people.  Where is the comparison?  Where is the sense?  Now, you wont read this in any American owned media but there is also intelligence that claims Israel kidnapped a Dr and his family and Hezbollah responded by kidnapping 2 soliders.  Naturally, you only hear about the Hezbollah kidnapping and not the Israeli kidnapping because the American press never allows you to hear the side of the Arabs.  Rather, those that own the media in America, prefer to paint the Israelis as the good guys and may sure the Arab voice is never heard.  The unfairness of this is never even questioned.  The only reason anyone is paying attention to the aggression of Israel, that, as usual, are claiming to protect their homeland, (one given to them by the UN, despite the fact that it belonged to the Palestinians who occupied the land when the UN decided the refugee Jews had to be put somewhere after WW2 and no other nation wanted them, so they dropped them in the Middle East because the Jews claim an historical right to the land, despite the fact, most Jews in Israel are European Jews who came from Russia and are not Semites at all), is because this action of aggression is so over the top.  Yes, they want to say that its Hezbollah’s fault Isreal is killing so many innocents, but few buy that.  Israel made the choice to go into Lebanon twice (war crime) and decimate the structure and population on their own.  They want to say that Hezbollah puts the citizens in front of them as shields, but who is dropping the bombs. Israel!!!!  That remains a fact no matter how they try to rationalize that to the contray.  And no amount of labeling people “anti-Semitic” that have eyes to see that fact, is going to change truth.  Israel made the choice that made them murderers before the world as now all eyes are looking at Israel and Israel cant blame anyone but themselves, though most times they find a way to point out the other guys faults and never their own.

I think Israel has superceded its power.  Do they really think getting back 2 soliders is worth the murder of hundreds of people.  Where is the comparison?  Where is the sense?  Now, you wont read this in any American owned media but there is also intelligence that claims Israel kidnapping a Dr and his family and Hezbollah responded by kidnapping 2 soliders.  Naturally, you only hear about the Hezbollah kidnapping and not the Israeli kidnapping because the American press never allows you to hear the side of the Arabs.  Rather, those that own the media in America, prefer to paint the Israelis as the good guys and never give any voice to the Arabs.  The unfairness of this is never even questioned.  The only reason anyone is paying attention to the aggression of Israel, as usual claiming to protect their homeland, (one given to them by the UN, despite the fact that it belonged to the Palestinians who occupied the land when the UN decided the refugee Jews had to be put somewhere after WW2 and no other nation wanted them, so they dropped them in the Middle East because the Jews claim an historical right to the land, despite the fact, most Jews in Israel are European Jews who came from Russia and are not Semites at all), is because this action of aggression is so over the top.  Yes, they want to say that its Hezbollah’s fault Isreal is killing so many innocents, but few buy that.  Israel made the choice to go into Lebanon twice (war crime) and decimate the structure and population on their own.  They want to say that Hezbollah puts the citizens in front of them as shields, but who is dropping the bombs. Israel!!!!  That remains a fact no matter how they try to rationalize that to the contray.  And no amount of labeling people that have eyes to see that fact, anti-Semitic is going to change truth.  Israel made the choice that makes them murderers before the world as now all eyes are looking at Israel and they cant blame anyone but themselves.

Re: Comment #17735 by ed_tru_lib on 8/10 at 2:55 pm

Fascinating! Utterly fascinating that anyone would expose him/herself like you do!

You know, I do believe you have reached a category of blog comment that will be the subject of much research in the years ahead ...

Does someone like you really believe what you post? Or are you simply trying to sabotage the views you espouse?

Fascinating.

And that you don’t say who you are ... of course, I CAN understand that part of it.

Hilding Lindquist-My SINCEREST apologies my friend. Please excuse my insensitivity. I had thought I was merely being somewhat humourously ironic, perhaps with just the slightest hint of blogpost sarcasm, when I implied you were mentally-challenged. I assure you Sir, I HAD NO IDEA IT WAS IN FACT THE CASE, and genuinely beg your pardon. The truth is Hilding, I had NEVER ACTUALLY HEARD of Cobb Elementary School in Duluth, which you attended, until you mentioned it, and so OF COURSE had no idea it REALLY WAS a school for children with “special needs.”
I have always been a big supporter of the Special Olympics, and am CERTAIN you were a proud and tenacious competitor in them.
Perhaps I let a little envy of your having been from Duluth, which I have never had the pleasure of visiting (my “cousin Hobart” was purely fictional) but I understand is a lovely city-virtually the Newark of the Great lakes, color my judgement.

As I understand it, Israel is committing this carnage against Lebanon because the Hezbollah captured 2 Israli soldiers!!  I interpret their actions as massive overkill and bullying akin to that of GW Bush.  There simply is no justification for the innocents killed in this endeavor.  It is murder, like those killed by the US in Iraq!  Obvioiusly, they do not realize they’re emulating one of the maddest leaders since Adolph Hitler!  Quite as obviously, they do not realize that their behavior will someday get them annihilated from the face of the Earth.

Some years ago CNN ran a program on the Israli occupation of the West Bank.  A woman had been driving in her vehicle with her young son in the back seat and a bullet had grazed his shoulder.  When asked by the reporter if she would consider moving elsewhere her answer was that God had chosen them to occupy that part of the world and she would never leave.  I thought it was one of the most unthinking and bizzare remarks I’d ever heard.  An example of a mind-set that could not be more astounding, meaning that the land she resided on meant more to her than the life of her child.

It’s far past time that Truman’s bill to keep Israel armed to the teeth with American taxes be abolished.  Americans should not be compelled to suffer for foreign nations to fight unjust wars on their assets.  As long as this pattern of events continues, Israel will have no incentive to seek peace with their neighbors!

I agree with these statements entered by Jeff:

If the Arabs put down their weapons today there would be no more violence.

If the Jews put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel.

This has continually happening since Israel came into existence.  It really isn’t our problem.  We do not have any need to commit our troops to this conflict.  That is what frightens me.  We do not belong in Iraq or involved in Lebanon except in maybe some humanitarian role of bring in food and medicine to the populus that suffers from the results of have a militia fighting in their back yard.

The deaths to civilians in Lebanon pale in light of the devatation we have caused in Iraq.  We need to get out and let them have their civil War.  We do not have to provide the targets for their revolution also.

Friends or foes cannot beat, humiliate, insult and smear this nation. Only the law-breaking and uncivilized firm of Bush, Cheney & Cos can do that with the accomplices at Senate & House of Representatives.

Bukko right about confirmation.I am so glad you can understand my points ! The Israelis ,Palestinians, and the Lebanese need a truce. Any truce would disarm Hezbollah and get Israeli army out of both Lebanon and Palestine. We do not need bigoted statements about any of those peoples .

Quite simply, Israel miscalulated by striking back so disproportionately at Hezbollah. Now the prospects for long term peace have been put in a tenuous state ... considering the fact that we (the USA) have squandered our status as an honest peacebroker in the Middle East ...

And the Neocons, the Rapturists, and the Zionists keep yelling the Bush cheer, “Bring it on!”

“Whatever happens, we have got/the Gatling gun and they have not."[sic] -Kipling

Change “Gatline gun” to “nukes” and we have the mindset of the Armageddonists.

Christine Ockrent, “regarded as on of France’s most respected broadcasters”, posts on The Washington Post’s PostGlobal page of its website the following:

<Quote:>
Posted at 7:00 AM ET, 08/ 7/2006
Lebanon, A New Stronghold for Iran

Paris, France - Whatever the outcome of this war, Hezbollah will be seen as the only Arab force able to win over Tsahal. Its hold over Lebanon will give Iran and the Shias more leverage than ever, weakening the neighbouring regimes, strengthening Iran’s capacity to be the sole Muslim superpower and enhancing its nuclear ambitions. Lebanon will suffer from more internal conflicts and will be an easy prey to even tighter Syrian-Iranian control.
<Endquote>

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/christine_oc krent/

ps to ed_tru_lib: I AM concerned by your fixation on “special needs” children ... most people don’t crack jokes in reference to them in a demeaning way. Why do you do it?

On the other hand, maybe you are a Islamist[sic] in a pro-Israel disguise ... trying to get me to think pro-Israel types are whacko ... so, is it really you or are you trying to fool me?

Fascinating, when I think about it. You are out there in that nether world of non-reason where you really could be anything! Wow!

Hildy-you forgot to say “ah”. O no prob little buddy, I guess you were in a frenzy. But hey, I thought you’d be all excited about my cobb school recollection. Anyway Hamoud..er..hildy..I talked to my cousin Hobart and he says you have a good memory. He was indeed the one who beat you up for doing better than him at math. He said the teacher had asked you both “how much is 2 + 2” and you had answered “22” and he had answered “oreos” so the teacher thought you had a better answer. But what the hell-you were just a couple of 19 year-old kids in the sixth grade, so why worry about it now. And clearly you’ve kept up your bible studies. BTW-Israel was founded by some the greatest, liberal/socialist thinkers of the last century, mostly agnostics, including the openly atheist Ben-Gurion. They didn’t want to make a paradise for all Israelis of all faiths or none, from the camel-dung strewn desert the few nomadic “palestinians” had going there, because any “god” had told them to, unlike the nutcase allah-freak hezbollah, who seemingly beleive in an inexhaustable supply of virgins waiting for them after their martyrdom. They wanted to do it because of the 5000 years of their history there, because of the holocaust (and preventing another one) and most of all because it was right.
O Hobart says he wants to get together with you-you can weave a few baskets together just like in school, and chuckle over old times-just, ya know...word to the wise Hilda-TRY not to piss him off this time. To be honest he’s not as nice a guy as he used to be back at cobb, but he is sorry about kicking your ass with his good shoes from his bar mitzvah.

If anybody thinks that the UN or NATO can make any kind of peace between Israel and its neighbors, they have forgotten that the UN created the state of Israel and that the UN is consequently viewed with varying degrees of mistrust by these neighbors.  If wealth is any indication, the oil wealth of these neighbors and their ability to manufacture or purchase weapons will ultimately inundate Israel.  Also, the expense of running this war will ruin Israel, and their income from tourism will shrink to nothing.

Re: Comment #17362 by ed_tru_lib on 8/08 at 12:40 pm

I know hondo needs help. Thanks, and I am sure hondo thanks you ... but you STILL don’t address the issues I raised ...

Like Israel and the UN resolutions it chooses to ignore ... while calling on the Palestinians and Hezbollah to abide by the resolutions impacting them. Not much Old or New Testament there.

And I know I shouldn’t bait you and hondo ... but you get in such a frensy and it is so much fun to watch, and it kind of exposes the way you think ... so I can’t help it! (And my comments say a lot about me ... see you don’t even have to say that now ... I’m helping you like you helped hondo. Ain’t this FUN!)

‘Course it clutters up the comments, so if you could simply respond to the points I raise, we could all get along ... whadaya think ‘bout that, big guy?

Well it looks as if Hilding has a new obscession besides the old testament-wondering if he knew any of us from the good ol’ days at Cobb School in Duluth. Well, you CERTAINLY didnt know me there Hildy, and I very much doubt you knew Hondo, but you might have know my cousin Hobart. Cobb you see, was what is known a a “special needs” students’ school. Anyway Hilding you’ll be glad to know that since graduation Hobart has always held a good job at Goodwill, and always been able to take care of himself. Although he did admit to me he voted for Bush cause “hey if Britney says he’s cool, thats good enough for me” Aw good old Cobb-wish they’d had a little more emphasis on social studies, but hey at least they spent 2 periods a day on that perhaps even more important class-"Not Drooling” Anyway, seriously, Hilding you were right about our having been quite cordial to each other previously in our posts, and I apologize for the “limpwrist” remark. I was just responding, I honestly think in kind, to your then immediate previous post to Hondo, who wasn’t there to defend himself, which he does admirably on his own, when he is.

i’m new to this site but am happy to find such an array of divergent opinions expressed with such vigor. things are rather staid here (at university---name withheld since i’m supposed to be studying right now).

historically, i’m sure israel has committed horrendous abuses, but so has hezbollah, as human rights watch has shown. there’s blame and blood to be shared on both sides. a way out? so many things have been tried and so many have failed. the future looks rather grim.

must add that i’m puzzled by the squeamishness about sex references some have made here. i suppose you americans see this as irrelevant, but since i’m a corrupt european, i find it rather amusing, if not immediately germane. so many of our political figures get caught with their knickers down in this or that scandal and so of course it spills over into our discourse. things get out of hand and somehow chats about the offending m.p.’s kinks (or whoever) get turned into chats about one anoher’s supposed kinks. silly, but i confess also fun.

i think one of your american authors, truman capote, philip roth, or some such, said ‘sex is poilitics.’ maybe that’s what this kibble gent’s point was. i admit, i found his comments frequently amusing and well said but he did rather tend to go on. sometimes less is more, mr. kibble.

in any event, i thought he at least made it clear that he didn’t give a tinker’s damn about anyone else’s poxy practices but was responding to what some other blogger had said earlier and, it would seem, irrlevantly about your former president clinton’s hijinkx. and i thought he rather extensively condemned hezbollah. correct me if i’m wrong.

My brother forwarded an email letter sent to him by a Jewish friend about the cruelty of Islamic justice. I turned to Snopes and got this:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/crushboy.asp

Now that Hezbollah, as well as the Israeli leadership, has been accused of war crimes don’t we have enough atrocities without manufacturing them?

Re: Comment #17313 by Hondo on 8/08 at 7:50 am

But-but-but hondo ... I answered your questions and you never responded to my answers ...

Have you forgotten about me, your sweetcakes ... oops, I mean sweetcheeks?

See: Comment #17122 by Hondo on 8/07 at 12:02 am

“Hilding gave me a lesson in the history of rhetorical questions (You need to get out more, sweetcheeks! Next time just answer the questions, OK?).”

By the way, you didn’t go to Cobb Elementary, Duluth, Minnesota, did you? Just thought I’d ask ...

Hey Kibbles and Bits, I thought we were talking about Israel and Hezbollah here. How do your rants about deviant sex have anything to do with that? You’re a pretty twisted guy!

If people could just keep theirs minds on war and off sex… Here’s something to think about:
http://progressive.org/mag_galeano0906b

The world now knows Bush is a 30 year recovering drug addict alcoholic silver spooner who mental case pissed off Daddy railroaded through with his big oil billions and connections all the way to the Supreme Court in order to enact revenge for getting ejected in 4 years for a peasant peon named Clinton.
This completely despicable bastard Dubya has destroyed everything America stands for including the fact that this nation is not one for kings or dynastys as the Bush Crime Family is trying to make it out to be.
Bush has singlehandedly destroyed America and more than doubled the national debt to 9 trillion while tripling gasoline prices and spying on Americans with his tyranny Lincolnized Marxist govt he calls a democracy.
Impeachement is required and conviction with jail and execution of not just GW Bush but the entire Bush Crime Family including Daddy Bush who is responsible for the destruction of this nation.

Re: Comment #17207 by ed_tru_lib on 8/07 at 2:16 pm

“Ah Hildegarde Limpwrist, or whatever your name is, thank GAWWDD YOU FOUND me”

Wow, I haven’t been called that since grade school by a kid who was always pissed off because I got better grades in math. That’s pretty good. You didn’t go to Cobb Elementary in Duluth, Minnesota, did you?

And I thought we were being fairly reasonable in our give and take ... but I enjoy a little levity also. And good proof readers are worth their weight in platinum ... would you mind looking over all my stuff here at truthdig on a regular basis? ... I tend to make typos and tense errors and mix singular nouns with plural verbs and stuff like that there ...

But the theme of this thread is the reliance of Israel on the military solution ... “Israel’s dependency on the drug of militarism as a false escape from the difficult accommodations needed to bring peace to the Middle East” ... and as we were discussing, there is some history here ... millenia of history. Which I was pointing out ... and it ain’t just Old Testament stuff ‘cuz there has been a whole lot of UN resolutions since 1948.

Like Sgt. Friday used to say, “Just the facts, ma’am.”

But I can understand why you might want to NOT discuss the facts ... on the other hand, maybe I should wait until I find out if you went to Cobb?

If anyone knows an Ariadne with a ball of yarn made of really good, strong spider-spun silk, could they please ask her to visit this thread ? Participants here seem to have utterly lost the original thread proposed by Robert Scheer ; i e, the alleged addiction to the drug of militarism from which the state of Israel is said to suffer. Instead of discussing this question, many participants have turned to remote analysis of each other’s sexual proclivities. My decades of experience as a psychiatrist leads me to believe that it is necessary to exercise caution when attempting to analyse what makes people with whom one has had no contact tick (indeed, it is rarely easy to understand people with whom one has had a relationship, professional or personal), and I should like to suggest that we get back to the original subject raised by Mr Scheer and confine our analyses to the public pronouncements and even more importantly, the public actions of the protagonists in the drama that has been playing out in Southwest Asia these last nearly sixty years. What people do in bed, on the rug, behind the refrigerator, etc, may be of great interest to our gossipy primate species, but it is less relevant to our pursuits here, and most importantly, extremely difficult to verify....

Ah Hildegarde Limpwrist, or whatever your name is, thank GAWWDD YOU FOUND me-I was missing your mature, and rational posts, particularly the last one directed at my honorable friend and colleague from across the aisle, Hondo. BTW-things aren’t “migrated"-they “migrate,” and since the other blog had all but disappeared, I wanted to make sure the minority here, of sincere-but-just-wrong about Israel’s need/right/intention/godDAMN well-gonna-have-an-effective defense of itself, could see how the mudslinging, slimesucking, pseudo-lefty losers on that blog were so similar to same here, especially when it came to MINDLESSNESS, and perhaps realize they had more in common with the tragically-few-in-number truth-seeking true progressives here, or even the one sensible conservative. I’m long past caring what the flat-out anti-semite fascists and other mental home residents or escapees think.
O and geez Hildy, you sure are obscessed with the old testament. There sadly have been, and probably are now, a few of the Jewish right-wing fundamentalists in positions of influence in Israel (just as in this country, minus the “Jewish” and “few") who are hurting the peace process, but Israel was proudly founded as a great, progressive, liberal/socialist SECULAR state by men who were mostly agnostics or, as in the case of Ben-Gurion, an open atheist. Yitzak’s Rabin’s assassin was, like you, a literal old-testament freak, who had far more in common with the hezbollah murderers, than with most of his fellow Israelis. Sorry to hear about your blood pressure problems though. I hear that stuff can affect judgement sometimes-heck your probably normally quite a kosher guy.

Kibble: When discussing hypocracy, there are SO many juicy tid-bits that don’t have to be racy to be hilarious:
Like Orren Hatch defending Clarence Thomas’s sexual harassment of an employment with impassioned moral outrage, and having the same moral outrage AGAINST Bill Clinton in the Paul Jones case, despite the fact that Thomas had CLEARLY harassed the lady, and that Clinton had not. (He asked, she said “no”, he said “OK” and her job and day to day work were un-affected).  So Hatch clearly points his moral outrage to help GOP positions and hurt Democratic ones, even if he has to take diametrically opposite positions!

I still love how the Right-Wingnuts love to say Clinton got away with a crime.  They know even less law than I do.  It’s true Clinton lied under oath, but most people don’t realize that it still did NOT constitute perjury.  Why? For perjury to take place, the lie must be relevant to the case.  Since the judge ruled ALL of the Monica Lewinsky evidence irrelevant to the Paula Jones case (ML was happily consenting to her affair with WJC, so there was nothing resembling harrassment there, and Lucienne Goldberg’s harrassment of Linda Tripp doesn’t count!), no perjury took place.

As for “Obstruction of Justice”, that was laughable.  One of the articles of Impeachment sent to the House floor actually had the gaul to say that WJC obstructed justice by having his lawyers use every LEGAL means to delay the case.  That article was voted for by EVERY GOP House leader, but failed to be approved.  At least SOME Republicans felt that impeachment should have a legal basis and not be TOTALLY partisan.

There’s enough hypocracy there to keep you busy for years--especially with Newt, Livingston and Hyde all voting for despite being philanderers themselves.

But while I am truly bothered by the religious right’s need and desire to invade the most intimate parts of our bodies (especially the ladies) with their absurd and insulting laws, and by those laws CLEAR violation of everything our Bill of Rights stands for, I really don’t give a damn what they do sexually as long as it’s between happily consenting adults, and it’s in private so I and my kids don’t have to see it.

ReComment #17145 by Mad As Hell:

You stated that Hondo’s “sexual proclivities/desires are of no interest to me.  Nor do I appreciate blind speculation on them.”

Why, gosh, neither do I. I really don’t care what other people do in bed (unless I’m in bed with them) and in fact have waged a long war to keep our friends on the supposedly anti-government right out of the bedroom, an area where privacy rights should reign. Speculation on Hondo’s proclivities thus interests me only insofar as it illustrates a characteristcally hypocritical obsession on the right about who’s doing what to whom.

Example: on a previous blog, Hondo launched into a rant about Clinton’s notorious blowjob and his arrest and conviction on rape charges---oh, wait, I guess the jury wasn’t quite convinced by the cold, hard facts on that latter indictment. Those goddam liberal judges--or is it juries?

And what, exactly, did that swipe at Slick Willy’s willy have to do with the topic at hand? Absolutely nada, anymore than smearing a peaceful grandmother as a “slut” on his site had any bearing on the subject under discussion.

("Slut," of course, isn’t an example of the kind of sexually tinged name-calling Good Christian Hondo pretends to despise; it’s just an neutral label on an objective phenomenon.) Clearly,Hondo suffers from a terminal case of what D.H. Lawrence called “sex on the brain"---though the sex in this case is always someone else’s.

I offered instances of right-wing violations of those holy-matrimony vows, to which Hondo responded with characteristic duplicity that they were morally wrong but at least not illegal. (Neither was having consensual sex with Lewinsky; lying to Congress about it was.) Hmmm. Is bestiality---one of the examples I offered---illegal? Anti-abortion extremist Neal Hosley, who thinks it’s OK for him to have control over any pregnant woman’s body, apparently thinks not. From an exchange with Alan Colmes

AC: “You had sex with animals?”

NH: “Absolutely. I was a fool. When you grow up on a farm in Georgia, your first girlfriend is a mule.”

AC: “I’m not so sure that that is so.”

I’m not so sure that bestiality isn’t illegal in Georgia, either---despite Hondo’s claim to the contrary. Check the criminal law code on that one.

I never shared the Reichian view on the relationship between sexual repression/perversion and political conservatism.
There are plenty of kinky mofos on all both sides of the aisle.

I can only offer anecdotal evidence from my background in psych. Many of the patients I’ve seen over the years who have some major issue with their sex lives or identities have tended to come from politically and religiously conservative backgrounds. Obviously, they’re not all “peverts"---a loaded word that 50 or even 25 years ago described persons who engaged in acts that are now recognized as statistically if not “morally” “normal.” But they have tended to be more frustrated, angry, and confused than the rest of us on the ole knockin’-boots thang.

And more out of touch with the discrepancy between what they say or think and what they actually do. I.e., in everday, non-clinical parlance, hypocritical.

So should they be called on this? You betcha!

Euro:
You reveal yourself as a committed anti-semite with that quote.  Did you think we were all too stupid to be able to Google it and find out that you pulled it off a Holocaust denial site?

The VERY FIRST places with that quote on Google were all Holocaust denial sites = neo-nazi.

See, I am WELL aware that the nazi racist movement can NEVER succeed again because of the Holocaust.  So they have been trying to convince people for YEARS to doubt the existence of one of the MOST documented horrors in human history.  People who are inclined to hate Jews leap on every tid-bit, shred, and out-and-out LIE in their march to bring back the nazis.

They are truly diabolical and I see you, with your bogus quote, that’s the newest version of the blood libel, have cast your lot with them.

To #17099 by paul kibble (comment #17099) and Bukko (comment #16976): You guys nailed it on Hondo. His own site really is empty...it’s like dropping a dime into a well and waiting for the echo to come back (it never does).

No wonder he’s wandered over to truthdig. His own kind don’t even want to pay him any attention. But how could you take him seriously on any level?...although kibble’s right in saying his entertainment value was high (at first). He’s thinking, “Well, maybe if I can’t get anyone from my side to listen, at least I can annoy or bore---sorry, “teach"---some liberals for a while.”

Speaking of his own kind, just heard that Pat Robertson (a commie fag) now believes that global warming exists...and is mostly caused by humans. Sad. Even Christian Hondo’s allies are abandoning him. A lonely life and geting lonelier by the minute.

Re: Comment #17122 by Hondo on 8/07 at 12:02 am

Gee, hondo, you’re no FUN any more ... well, actually you are ... but you don’t respond to the facts I presented ... I thought I would deserve a little bit of respect seeing’s as how I afforded you some ...

I mean you just keep yelling and screaming and carrying on at everybody!?

And how was I to know you really, REALLY wanted answers to those questions when you had already answered them ... and then when I DID give you MY answers, you dissed ‘em.

I just don’t think that is FAIR, hondo. And here I thought you would be a good source of humor ... y’know that’s a pretty rare commidity these days.

And we could, like, carry on a conversation, a reasonable discussion like ... here on ww.truthdig.com ... whadaya say to that? you big strong guy, you, hondo. (Hope you like compliments, ‘cuz I do.)

But you have to stop all this yelling and screaming and carrying on like you do, and talk reasonable like ... or I won’t discuss things with you ... y’all hear me now, don’t be being mean and nasty.

(See ... this is so much fun! Ooooh, I just love it when you call me sweetcakes! Gets me all warm and tingly inside ... which is pretty darn hard to do these days for a 67+ year old man on blood pressure medicine with bad eyesight and ... well, most folks don’t wanna know. But anyway, hondo, it IS fun ... hope you hang in here.)

And, finally, the truth about the massacre at Qanna (and another shock for Christian and Liberal Zionists):

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html

With a fuller discussion here:

http://www.rense.com/general72/rabb.htm

Y’know, both Hondo and I think the other is an insane maniac divorced from reality, 99% of the time.  I find his analysis of domestic and foreign policy to be terrifying and hilarious, based on pure fantasy.  I’m sure he thinks the same of me. 

His sexual proclivities/desires are of no interest to me.  Nor do I appreciate blind speculation on them. Being a sexual pervert has no connection to being a right-wingnut and the constant attempt to connect the two as effect and cause bothers me.  Just because it is clear that Ann Coulter has some sort of problem (can Matt Blunt ever forgive himself for sleeping with her?) doesn’t imply all right-wingnuts do, just as Ted Kennedy’s and Bill Clinton’s inability to stay faithful has no such implication for the Left or liberals.

But even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Hondo’s 2 questions are sound ones: Does anyone REALLY believe that if Israel laid down her arms peace would reign? There would be a 2nd Holocaust and then all the factions would kill each other fighting over the bones.

If Israel’s enemies stopped attacking her would there be peace?  Most likely.  But here we have to remember that Israel, UNLIKE HER NEIGHBORS is still a functioning democracy and there is, sadly, a faction that advocates continuing and on-going war to “regain the Holy Land”.  They would tear down the Dome of The Rock without a 2nd thought.  And they support the Likud and Benyamin “What A Yahoo”.  Yet so, SO many Israelis, like most people everywhere, would much prefer to live in peace with their neighbors that I don’t think that faction would stand a CHANCE in the face of a REAL peace effort on the part of Israel’s enemies. 

The peace with Egypt has survived for 25 years now.  All Egypt had to do was negotiate in good faith.  There’s the answer to Hondo’s 2nd question.

BTW, I have always found it odd that the Fundamentalists in America support Israel...For a long time they didn’t and hated Jews going back to the 19th century.  But in their apocalyptic view, Israel is necessary for the 2nd Coming so they support it.  Ain’t religion weird?

What is the final objective of Zionism?

One fact mostly overlooked by fundamentalist Christian-Zionists is that the Jews are expecting their own messiah (who is most certainly NOT Jesus Christ).  This Jewish messiah will rule not just the Jews but the whole world from Jerusalem at the centre of a Greater Israel.  What sort of rule do the Zionists expect this to be?  Perhaps the late former Prime Minister of Israel Menachem Begin can give us a clue.  According to him:

“Our race is the Master Race. We are divine gods on this planet. We are as different from the inferior races as they are from insects. In fact, compared to our race, other races are beasts and animals, cattle at best. Other races are considered as human excrement. Our destiny is to rule over the inferior races. Our earthly kingdom will be ruled by our leader with a rod of iron. The masses will lick our feet and serve us as our slaves.”

Compared to that, and if one were forced to choose, then life under Sharia Law might not seem so bad after all.  Ah, but it is just an unrealizable Zionist fantasy you may say.  Really?  Are not American workers already slaves to Zionists, providing Israelis with one of the highest standards of living in the world at the expense of their own?  Are not American lives and resources already being commandeered to fight the Zionists’ endless battles for them?  And, if your political leaders are not already licking the feet of the Zionists, then I have to say that it sure looks like they are from everywhere else in the world.  With America’s power (the “rod of iron”?) at their beck and call, why should there be any limits to what the Zionists can achieve.  But don’t expect them to wait around for some Jew to turn up claiming to be the messiah, since, according to many Zionists, the Jews themselves, resurrected after the “crucifiction” of the Holocaust, are the messiah, and to them will accrue all the wealth and glory in the world.

What would be the ultimate terrorist act?

‘We possess several hundred atomic warheads and rockets and can launch them at targets in all directions, perhaps even at Rome. Most European capitals are targets for our air force. Let me quote General Moshe Dayan: “Israel must be like a mad dog, too dangerous to bother.” I consider it all hopeless at this point. We shall have to try to prevent things from coming to that, if at all possible. Our armed forces, however, are not the thirtieth strongest in the world, but rather the second or third. We have the capability to take the world down with us. And I can assure you that that will happen before Israel goes under.’ - Martin van Creveld, professor of military history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem as quoted in The war game PDF September 21, 2003.

Ever wondered why Israel needs so many nuclear weapons? Surely that bastion of goodness and light amidst the evil and darkness of Islam couldn’t be threatening to destroy the whole world out of narcissistic spite?  Could it?

Mad As Hell

Talking of hypocrisy…

What IS terrorism?

If any Middle Eastern group succeeded in setting off a radiological, so-called “dirty”, bomb in the US, the UK, or Israel, then nobody on either side here would hesitate for one moment to call this an act of outrageous terrorism.  And yet, for at least a decade or so, all three of these countries have been spraying the Arab parts of the Middle East (including now the Lebanon) with highly toxic depleted uranium (DU) dust from their spent munitions with some of the results seen here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformitie s.html

And see:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArt icle&code=20060503&articleId=2374

I don’t know if the insistance on using these weapons is down just to callous stupidity, or because it is in the interests of yet more war profiteering for Cheney’s Halliburton group (which handles the processing of the DU in the USA), or is a deliberate attempt at genocide of the Arabs ("A land without people..."), but, even taking into account John Bolton’s formula for calculating “moral equivalence” (which seems to be based on Rabbi Yaacov Perrin’s infamous dictum that “One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."), I, for one, would be unable to see any moral high ground from which the US, UK, and Israel could complain if they did receive the same in kind.

Kibble: One of the nice things abour reading blogs posts from like-minded people is that it’s a confidence-builder to have one’s viewpoints reinforced. Aha! Confirmation that I was right! And of course, you are…

As for the nutter raving on the corner, and on this thread, is that his mind is the only one that counts for the current U.S. administration. President Cheney, Karl Rove and their monkey puppet Bush don’t care about the opinions of anyone in the reality based community. The only peanut gallery they’re playing to is people like Hondo—the ones who only know whatever garbage they’re fed on Fox News.

That’s why you can have situations like last Friday when Donald Rumsfeld told Hillary Clinton that she’d have a “ding-donged hard time” (or whatever other silly cracker phrase he used) finding when he uttered optimistic predictions about how it would go in Iraq. On Air America Radio (we listen to downloaded podcasts here) they played sound clip after sound clip of him doing just that. But on Fox (which we mercifully can’t get) I’m sure they heard none of that. So Rummy’s dummy statement sat unchallenged by people with no memory of the past.

It’s sad, because you and I and the sensible majority in America know he’s wrong. But the 30% of the population that belongs to the cult is all that matters. That’s why Hondo matters. Your psychological perception of him is spot-on. particularly the sexual part. But isn’t it scary that the men with the guns are operating in his world, and not ours? It’s like we’ve entered the world of that nut on the corner…

Mate, I am SO glad I’m out of the U.S! Australia will suffer when it all comes crashing down, as it inevitably does when mentally ill people are allowed a free run. You’ve seen how they destroy their lives when they’re loose and off their meds. The trouble is that when the U.S. hits the wall of reality, it’s going to cause unimagineable suffering and death across the planet.

Re Comment #17055 by ed_tru_lib: I didn’t need a “no-spin-zone type paper” of whatever political stripe to break the news that Mel Gibson is a vicious anti-Semite. The “scoop” simply confirmed the depth of his pathology, but said pathology has been in evidence at least since his S&M;classic “The Passion.”

Mel’s pop epic about that Man from Galilee was, among other things, clearly an indictment of those Christ-killing kikes. The script for “Passion” drew heavily on the Gospel of St. Matthew, as well as on the scribblings of the anti-Semitic mystic Anne Catherine Emmerich.

As long ago as 1995, Gibson, in a touching display of filial piety, made his allegiance to Daddy Hutton’s ideas and obsessions quite plain:

Gibson: [My father] writes books about canon law and Catholicism.

Playboy: Have you read them?

Gibson: Yeah. He is pretty sound canonically and theologically. He’s a bookish guy. Uses words I’ve never heard of.

Playboy: What does he have to do with the Alliance for Catholic Tradition, which one magazine called “an extreme conservative Catholic splinter group”?

Gibson: He started it. Some people say it’s extreme, but it emphasizes what the institution was and where it’s going. Everything he was taught to believe was taken from him in the Sixties with this renewal Vatican Council. The whole institution became unrecognizable to him, so he writes about it.
(Playboy, July, 1995).

And again the devoted son tells us: “My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me. The man never lied to me in his life.”
(New York Post, January 30, 2004)

And here’s Mel on allegations that Hutton’s a Holocaust denier:"That’s bullshit...I don’t want to be dissing my father. He never denied the Holocaust; he just said there were fewer than six million. I don’t want them having me dissing my father. I mean, he’s my father.”
(The New Yorker, September 15, 2003)

Do you hear Mel saying “I love my Dad, but on this Holocaust business, he’s dead wrong”? Isn’t Mel stetching the “father” part of that Biblical injunctioon to “Honor thy father and mother” rather suspiciously thin?  What more proof do you need that his visceral anti-Semitism, far from being a mere “cultural construct,” is as close to being hard-wired into his DNA as is humanly, or inhumanly, possible? Would you settle for a picture of Mel on an Aryan website celebrating his courageous stand against the Jewish enemy("White Christian Martyr Smeared by Jesus-Hating Hebes")? This poisoned little apple never fell far from the tree.

And notice Mel’s sly evasions on the actual number of those murdered in the camps:

Q: You’re going to have to go on record. The Holocaust happened, right?

Gibson: I have friends and parents of friends who have numbers on their arms. . . Yes, of course. Atrocities happened. War is horrible. The Second World War killed tens of millions of people. Some of them were Jews in concentration camps. Many people lost their lives. In the Ukraine, several million starved to death between 1932 and 1933. During the last century, 20 million people died in the Soviet Union.
(New York Post, January 30, 2004)

Got it? Mel’s head starts hurting when you throw all those big numbers at him. Europe, the Ukraine---it all kinda blurs together. With so many dead bodies piling up over the years, can anyone really say for sure how many Jews died at Auscwitz and elsewhere. Subtext: Daddy MAY have been right about that “less that six million” estimate.

Tim Rutten’s terrific article in the 8/5/06 edition of the L.A. Times has an even more important point to make:

“More to the point, why hasn’t the press reopened the discussion of Gibson’s financially successful but controversial movie, ‘The Passion of the Christ’? When it was released two years ago, there were some who argued that, apart from its lurid sadomasochistic aura — critic Leon Wieseltier called it ‘a sacred snuff film’ — Gibson’s narrative was studded with the kinds of anti-Semitic caricatures once associated with medieval passion plays.”

“A much larger number of commentators and clergymen, particularly those hand-selected by the filmmaker and his people for private screenings, solemnly assured their readers, audiences and congregations that this was all a lot of anti-religious nonsense. More important, many of them personally vouched that Gibson is not an anti-Semite.”

“Looking back, it’s hard to see how so many people could have so completely overlooked the obvious warning signs.” ( See http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-rutten 5aug05,1,2313645.column?coll=la-news-columns )

Well, perhaps not that hard.

As for the source of your “break,” I agree with Oscar Wilde that the truth is never pure and rarely simple, but sometimes one side can lay claim to having a firmer grasp of that sometimes elusive entity than another.  Whether that side can be identified with a specific ideological position---emananting from the right or the left (or what passes for a left in this country)---should be a matter of indifference.  In the past I’ve agreed with Krauthammer, George Will, even Bill Buckley. I’ve also vehemently disagreed with The Nation. I’ll continue to do so in the future.

P.S.: Hezbollah is a murderous pain in the ass, all right, but what are you going to do with it, or them? Why is a rigidly fundamentalist Shi’a organization---or at least its civil/social development wings, and, admit it, often its military wing, too---so appealing to so many Muslims (and some non-Muslims) in the Arab world? Why is Sheik Hassan Nasrallah so widely revered there? Because Iran, Syria, and (still) parts of Lebabnon and many in the Islamic community see Hezbollah as a legitimate organization opposing the “territorial incursions” of the Israeli government.

A bum rap for Israel? Yes and no---as you euphemistically put it, Israel has made “mistakes.” Perhaps these are some of the “mistakes” you have in mind: the expulsion of the indigenous Arab population in 1948 and 1967? The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip?  The well-documented human rights abuses against Palestinians? Hezbollah wasn’t born in a vacuum.

Remember also that the civil arm of Hezbollah operates (or did operate) a number of hospitals, clinics, and schools in Lebanon, as well as offering technical assistance and training to farmers. It also has (or had) extensive social asistance programs.

Hezbollah’s kidnappings clearly played a key role in provoking the current conflict. That fact will be hardly persuade many in the Muslim/Arab world that the organization is made up exclusively of bad guys.

Hezbollah was brought into being in 1982 after when the Israel Defense Forces invaded southern Lebanon. But that was after an assassination attempt on then-ambassador to the U.K. Shlomo Argov and the shelling of Northern Israel by the PLO. But that was after----well, the cause-and-effect chain goes on and on, doesn’t it? And will go on. And on. And on.

Identify the source of this quote: “There have been heavy civilian casualties in Lebanon; there have been civilian casualties in Israel as well. I deeply deplore the extensive human suffering caused by these developments.” Condi Rice or Kofi Annan in 2006? No, the U.N. Secretary General in 1982.  Deja vu?

The wondeful Abrahamic religious tradition, which in it varying incarnations inflicted Judaism. Christianity, and Islam on us, has always had and will always rack up a very decent body count in the name of divine right.

Ostensible political motives aside, the lyrics from the theme to Exodus, a movie celebrating the founding of the Israeli state, give a better sense of the root feelings of entitlement underlying nationalistic/territorial aspirations: “This land is mine/ God gave this land to me/ This brave and ancient land to me.” etc./ ad nauseum. Translated into Arabic, it could just as well serve as the anthem of Islamic jihadists. If Jehovah, or Allah, is your real estate agent, then who cares if the sales agreement has to be signed in blood?

(And, yes, I know: Israel is officially a secular state, just as we are. No religious sentiments shape their foreign policy any more than they do ours. Uh-huh.)

Despite the fact that we and Canada and Israel and the U.K. list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization, a “Beirut Center for Research and Information” poll from 26 July of this year showed that 87 percent of Lebanese support Hezbollah’s fight with Israel, up by 29 percent on a similar poll from February. But Hezbollah also has strong support from non-Shiite communities. 80 percent of Christians polled supported Hezbollah along with 80 percent of Druze and 89 percent of Sunnis. In another poll from July 2005, 74 percent of Christian Lebanese viewed Hezbollah as a resistance organization.

Does Hezbollah use terrorist tactics? The record speaks for itself: the 80’s of kidnappings of Westerners in Lebanon; the Beirut truck bombs that killed more than 200 Marines in ‘83; the ‘65 highjacking of TWA flight 847; the bombing of Jewish targets in Argentina in ‘92 and ‘84, etc.

But if you really want a “safe and secure Israel,” perhaps you should be prepared to explain to those who are NOT (or were not) Israel’s sworn enemies about the reasons for all that “unfortunate” collateral damage in Lebanon---damage that will only ensure that, if anything, Israel in the future will be even more unsafe and less secure than ever. Per Human Rights Watch worker Peter Bouckaert:

“The world doesn’t seem to put much credence in the testimonies of Lebanese civilians, preferring to buy generic Israeli statements about Hezbollah using civilians as human shields, ‘precision strikes’ at terrorist targets, and a ‘proportionate’ bombing campaign. But after days of contradictory statements about Qana, the Israeli military was reported as saying it had no indication of rocket fire or Hezbollah presence in Qana on the day of the strike, and had bombed the area in retaliation for rockets launched days earlier.”

“Israel’s claims about pin-point strikes and proportionate responses are pure fantasy. As a researcher for Human Rights Watch, I’ve documented civilian deaths from bombing campaigns in Kosovo and Chechnya, Afghanistan and Iraq. But these usually occur when there is some indication of military targeting: high-ranking members of Saddam Hussein’s regime present in a house just before it is hit, for example, or an attack against militants that causes the collateral deaths of many civilians.”

“In Lebanon, it’s a different scene. Time after time, Israel has hit civilian homes and cars in the southern border zone, killing dozens of people with no evidence of any military objective.”

“My notebook overflows with reports of civilian deaths. On July 15, Israeli fire killed 21 people fleeing from Marhawin, including 13 children; no weapons, no Hezbollah nearby. On July 16, an Israeli bomb killed 11 civilians in Aitaroun, including seven members of a Canadian-Lebanese family on vacation; again, no Hezbollah, no weapons. On July 19, at least 26 civilians were killed in Srifa when Israeli bombs flattened an entire neighborhood; no evidence of military targets. On July 23, at least seven civilians were killed when Israeli warplanes bombed dozens of cars trying to flee the south after receiving Israeli instructions to evacuate immediately; no indication of weapons convoys in the vicinity. The list goes on, with about 500 civilians killed so far.”

“Israel says the fault for the massive civilian death toll lies with Hezbollah, claiming its fighters are hiding weapons inside civilian homes and firing them from civilian areas. But even if the Israeli forces could show evidence of Hezbollah activity in some civilian areas, it could not justify the extensive use of indiscriminate force that has cost so many lives.”

“Not only has Israel failed to distinguish between military and civilian targets; its own officials suggest that they have decided any civilian still in the south is fair game. Last week, Justice Minister Haim Ramon reportedly said, ‘All those now in south Lebanon are terrorists who are related in some way to Hezbollah.’”

“So if you are too frightened to flee southern Lebanon, or are sick, injured or too poor to pay the more than $1,000 it now costs to get out, you are a ‘terrorist’ and eligible for attack. As for those who heeded the Israeli warnings to flee, the roads are littered with bombed civilian cars, many with white flags still attached to their windows. After all, the Israelis tell us, they could have been transporting arms. Israel is prefabricating excuses to justify killing civilians.”

“Tragedies happen in the fog of war, but Israel’s strikes on civilians can’t all be excused as accidents or mistakes. The unacceptably high death toll is the natural result of Israel’s failure to distinguish between civilian and military targets, and Israel is responsible for the deaths.”

“Israel must target its fight on Hezbollah, not Lebanese civilians.”

A point-by-point refutation of these charges, please. Or simply this: how will that all-purpose Rummy-style get-out-of-jail card ("Stuff happens")re these casualties help bring a lasting peace to Israel, or for that matter, to the Middle East?

Rastaraskle-- I meant “amoral"--lacking moral sensibility; not caring about right and wrong. I believe that Israel is clearly in the right in this conflict. I believe that this simple fact is self-evident. To ignore that self-evident fact is amoral.

To the liberals who agree with me--God bless you for that, and I mean that sincerely. It is true that all of us can get so caught up in stereotyping the people we view as “the opposition”, that we forget that total groupthink doesn’t exist in any group of people. Ed Koch wrote an op-ed about Israel within the last week that proves that very point.

To the liberals who disagree with me on this issue--You people don’t have one shred of morality, intelligence, or historical perspective. Most of you refused to even comment on the 2 questions I raised. Ignoring the questions doesn’t make them go away! A couple of you did tackle the questions, but came up with the wrong answers (you can repeat the class in the summer, students!). Hilding gave me a lesson in the history of rhetorical questions (You need to get out more, sweetcheeks! Next time just answer the questions, OK?). Most of the Assembled Masses of the Cuckoo’s Nest just continued to foam at the mouth and call me names. Very impressive! And you wonder why most Americans wouldn’t vote for any of your candidates for dog catcher!
One final comment for Sidney (Comment #16983)--The word you’re looking for is “lying”, not “exaggerating”, and, yes, liberals do feel the need to lie in order to make a point. Exhibits A-Z: everything written by Robert Scheer on the missnamed site Truthdig.com. Exhibits AA-ZZ: Everything written by Bukko and his Cracked Nut Brigade on the same site.

Re: Comment #17055 by ed_tru_lib on 8/06 at 11:52 am

Ah, ed_tru_lib, not so fast ... it really isn’t fair migrating your discussion over here from “The Photos That Damn Hezbollah.” ... I might not have found you ... but I did ... so let’s pick up the thread ... and kind of reason this thing through. Are you up to it?

This is keeps us current over here also:

Re: Comment #17037 by ed_tru_lib on 8/06 at 10:11 am

Following: Comment #16637 by Hilding Lindquist on 8/04 at 9:28 am

Following: Comment #16496 by ed_tru_lib on 8/03 at 2:55 pm

Following: Comment #16458 by Hilding Lindquist on 8/03 at 11:50 am

Following: Comment #16261 by ed_tru_lib on 8/02 at 10:45 am

Kicked off by: Comment #16217 by Hilding Lindquist on 8/02 at 7:29 am

So, ed_tru_lib, you dropped the ball ... how come? ... is it just easier to write mindless insults when you don’t agree with others?

Reason is the enemy of fundamentalism. Spinoza was right 350 years ago and he is still right today.

Just review the list of UN resolutions against Israel and why they were made, and then tell me again that Israel has clean hands in this conflict. And I am not saying Hezbollah has clean hands either. But Israel is my nation’s ally, and since we call ourselves a Christian nation ... and a teaching atttibuted to the person called Jesus is that I should be concerned about the 2 x 4 in my eye before I worry about the sliver in someone else’s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_UN_resolution s_concerning_Israel

And as I believe, in accordance with other teachings of the same Jesus, that it is up to the strong to break the cycle of violence, and I do believe we are a strong nation, quite possibly the strongest ever ... we should be the peacemakers, as in “Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.”

You see, it is so OLD Testament to be going around killing men, women, children, and even the animals in the name of Jehovah.