I am interested in embracing what is unique about being gay.The more I can recognize how I was made to feel ashamed for being gay . I believe staying in the closet and creating a false identity is not the answer. I grew up in a heterosexual Texas family in which I was reared as if were heterosexual and was constantly brain washed that heterosexuality was the only reality. Any expression of my Gay Self would result in receiving violent treatments from my father a texas ranger. This violent homophobic society was too scary for me to express my genuine Gay Self. I need help i just don’t no what to do.

Sturmgewehr kkk Buddy Hinton downward spiral [Archive] - UZI Talk Forums[Archive] Buddy Hinton downward spiral General Talk.
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-9437.html - 14k - Supplemental Result - Cached - Similar pages

Freaky,

I’ve never heard of any Jewish Messiah named Svi Shabbat.  I have heard of Shabtai Tzvi.  If that’s who you’re referring to I fail to see the correlation as he was almost universally rejected among the Jews.  As for Zionism being a 19th century invention, the movement’s name and popularity certainly was.  However, if you go back into the Jewish liturgy, you’ll see that it’s been calling for a Jewish state in Israel for millenia.  Aside from which, being kicked out in 53CE, I know the Romans conquered Jerusalem and razed the temple in 70CE.  The Bar Kochba (notice spelling) rebellion wasn’t until the 130s CE, so your information doesn’t seem to jive with history.  On top of this, despite the ongoing Galus (Diaspora), there has been a consistent Jewish presence in Israel for over 3,000 years.  As for traditional Arab lands--what traditional Arab lands?  Their lands include Saudi Arabia, Iraq, etc.  They have no claim on Israel, and certainly not as Muslims, since they’ve only been around for half the time that the Jews have been in Israel.  You want to talk racist, how’s this:  Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.  Need I say more.  Iran has admitted to supplying Hezbollah for the purpose of destroying Israel--and Iranians are even Arabs.  So there’s the hole in your argument.  Good luck plugging it.

Hi Maxim,

The historical record is more detailed than the Wikipedia article would lead you to believe. You may want to read Arthur Koestler’s “The Thirteenth Tribe.” It offers the only plausible
explanation of which I am aware, of how a small, ethnically Semitic nation scattered by the Romans following the Bar Khoba rebellion, could emerge almost a thousand years later as a significantly large, CAUCASION population in Eastern Europe.

You might also want to read up on the creation of Zionism at a much later date (the 19th century), based on the writings of Svi Shabbat, the “Jewish Messiah,” and further codified in Theodore Herzl’s “Das Judenstaat.”

Further research yields how political Zionism was wedded to Evangelical Christianity through the
doctrine of a Scot, John Nelson Darby, and how this doctrine was exported to the USA by the Oxford Press in 1880, through the Scofield Reference Version of the King James Bible (the favorite Bible of today’s most influential Christion Zionists).

Further research reveals that the financier behind behind the emmigration of Zionists to Palestine was Nathaniel Rothschild, owner of the the Bank Of London, and that the primary motive was security for the Suez Canal, as the elites of the City Of London forsaw the tremendous fortune and political power they could acquire in the coming age of oil. This was codified in the Balfour Resolution of 1917, even though the same British government had promised the same land to the Palestinian Arabs for their role as allies of the British in vanquishing the Ottoman Turks from Palestine.

Notwithstanding all of the above, a people that reputedly took their land by force from the Canaanites in 1200BCE or so, enjoys no inherant right to a piece of real estate from which they themselves were forcibly ejcted in 53CE, regardless of their religion, and that is the hole in your argument. If I convert to Church of England, do I have the right to demand a British passport? Of course not.

And how about Constantinople, the birthplace of organised Christianity? It has been in Muslim hands since the fifteenth century as Istanbul. Where are all the Christians clamoring for a return to their homeland? I’ve yet to hear even ONE mention of it.

The imposition of a white, racist European state onto traditional Arab lands was one of the more egregious injustices of the 20th century. Why do you seek to perpetuate it?

Od Kahane Chai!!!

Israel pawn of U.S. America pawn of Israel. Symbiotic madness. Canakya Pandit, the advisor to Moghul India’s Shah Jahan, said “when dealing with the cunning, you must also be cunning”. While the rest of the world wants the killing to immediately stop, Bush and Olmert would like to keep on killing for a little while longer. This administration has never had a viable foreign policy beyond Straussian bullying.

Bill Rood writes:
“He was proposing to annex to Israel 10% of the West Bank and to maintain indefinite Israeli control of an additional 10%. Israel would have maintained control of all borders, including the border with peaceful Jordan.”

Yes, what you’ve written is perfectly consistent with the point I made earlier(in reference to Barak’s offer).  That control of the borders is tantamount to offering someone a hotel as I mentioned but saying in effect that you still have control of the lobby.

Not terribly generous in my opinion.

Has anyone seen the saturday night live skit where Chris Farley is at a party getting horribly drunk and destroying the place, and when anyone challenges him, he screams “The Bears ate my Parents”.  People lay off and tolerate his bad behaviour, until they realize that the parents were eaten at least 20 years ago.

It seems like Israel is a state that takes the same position.  It behaves badly, and when anyone challenges it, the vast propoganda machine screams Anti-Semitism, and alludes to the holocost.  But that tragic event is more than fifty years and a continent away.  And it seems like Israel still uses it to justify its vicious tactics.

I also get a cynical kick out of all the talk about how Israel is the only true Democracy in the middle east.  If a democratic government reflects the will of the people better than any other type, then we can truly judge the people by the conduct of their government and state institutions, like the military.  So does that make Israelis callous because of their unmitigated air war against lebanese civilians?  Does it make the Israelis cowardly because they run from a small border town after losing a squad?  Does this logic make Israelis terrorists because their stated objective in bombing all of Lebanon is to make the population kick out Hezbollah, which is the very definition of terrorist tactics? 

Someone might object to this line of reasoning on the grounds that it’s wrong to lump everyone together, that it’s prejudice, racism, stereotyping, racial profiling, etc… But by fielding this objection they would also object to indescriminate bombing of civilians in the hopes of getting some terrorists. 

When is Israel going to start behaving like the normal, rational, civilized country it claims to be?  It’s small and hardly self sustaining.  It is surrounded by hundreds of millions of arabs, whom it gives more reason to hate it every day.  It has managed to alienate just about everyone other than the U.S.  And granted, so long as Israel has the U.S. speeding it fuel and ammunition, it can merrily ravage lebanese and palestinian women and children indefinitely.  But all relationships change and come to an end.  It would be wise to get peace while the getting is good.

Kwagmyre, Maxim and others here labor under a particularly damaging piece of propaganda about Camp David II. Barak did not offer the Palestinians “97%” or anything close to that. He was proposing to annex to Israel 10% of the West Bank and to maintain indefinite Israeli control of an additional 10%. Israel would have maintained control of all borders, including the border with peaceful Jordan. For more on “Barak’s generous offer” go to Uri Avnery’s Gush Shalom website, and remember that Avnery is a former MK and fought for Israel in 1947-48.

What I said was until you get your facts straight, you should keep your mouth shut.  The facts are, according to wikipedia.org and historian Berel Wein, among others that “although the historical record itself is very limited, there is a consensus of cultural, linguistic, and genetic evidence that the Ashkenazi Jewish population originated in the Middle East. When they arrived in northern France and the Rhineland sometime around 800-1000 CE, the Ashkenazi Jews brought with them both Rabbinic Judaism and the Babylonian Talmudic culture that underlies it. The Yiddish language, once spoken by the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jewry, is heavily influenced by Hebrew and Aramaic, but not by Greek or Latin. Recent research in human genetics has also demonstrated that a significant component of Ashkenazi ancestry is Middle Eastern.” So you’ll forgive me if I don’t take you at your word.  As for mine, I promised to leave and now I am.  Thanks for the edifying discussions...NOT.

Hey Maxim,
I gave you the facts and your best rebuttal is that I should shut my stupid mouth? What an appropriately troll-like response. Nowhere did I, or anyone on this site, say that the Ashkenazi are not Jews, but that they are Jews by CHOICE (by mass conversion in the 9th century). However, as Caucasions, they are most certainly NOT Semites. As self-styled Jews, the Zionist claim to a chunk of real estate based on Hebrew folklore is absurd. Based on that logic, Florida should be returned to the Seminoles and the alligators. Hmmm. Maybe that’s not such a bad idea.

Well guys, your liberal mentality has finally won the day.  I’ve decided to move on and talk to people who actually know the history of the situation.  But before I go, just one last comment--any gentile who has the gall to claim that Ashkenazi Jews aren’t Jews should review the facts before opening their stupid mouth.  Have a nice life guys--it must be fun living in oblivion.

Kwagmyre: “Unfortunately, the insanity that clearly grips Israel means they will likely resort to attacks on Damascus and Tehran and then to use of their nuclear arsenal when all else fails.”

This is obviously the more likely when one considers that the neocon/Israeli mentality is that this glorious cluster of wars they are fomenting is a replay of World War II, which they see as an example of a war that was an unalloyed good, regardless of the tens of millions dead, because it resulted in the establishment of Israel — and what’s “good for Israel” is the sole yardstick by which any use of massive violence is to be measured.

Over the past 4 or 5 years, Beirut and other Lebanese port cities had become the preferred destinations for tourists.
Does the fact of billions of tourist $$ being diverted from the Israeli economy have anything to do with the utter destruction of these cities???

Israel has been a corporate criminal enterprise since day one.

The Zionist movement is 100% secular and was designed as an adjunct to British Imperialism over 200 years ago to lay claim to the so-called Holy Land. To achieve this, British Zionists secured the support of American evangelicals through the clever deployment and promotion of the Darbyist tract known as the Schofield Reference Version of the King James Bible. The book was published the Oxford Press. The Zionist hold on America is now so refined that Israel’s AIPAC lobby buys US congressmen with US taxpayer dollars. How elegant is that?

The white Ashkenazi who rule Israel are self-styled Jews of Turkic/Mongol/Caucasian descent, and unlike the Sephardic true Jews, they can claim no genetic ties whatsover to the Israelites of Hebrew folklore. They can’t even credibly claim to be Semites, which originally referred to a language group which includes Arabs. Israel is itself an anti-Semitic, racist Apartheid state. It is enabled solely by the crypto-pagan death cult that currently wields considerable power in America.

The Zionists are not the friends of Jews. They hide behind Judaism and shriek “Anti-Semite!” at anyone who levels even the mildest criticism at Israel’s policies.

Before they laid claim to the British protectorate of Palestine, they were offered Uganda as a homeland. Some Israelis think they should have taken that deal.

Me, I think the Zionists should be given a national homeland in, say, Oklahoma, or Texas.

Posted by Nathaniel Turner:

Unfortunately, the insanity that clearly grips Israel means they will likely resort to attacks on Damascus and Tehran and then to use of their nuclear arsenal when all else fails.

Actually, the more likely scenario might be Israel’s pre-emptive launching of those nuclear weapons precisely because they will see that “all else fails” and they dare not let Iran beat them to it.

Capitalism has begun wheezing and sputtering under the influence of its fatal contradictions. One of the more graphic illustrations of the system’s growing irrationality is being vividly painted now by one of its forward outposts—Israel. The state that Zionism created has begun sensing its mortality and is thrashing around accordingly. The guardians of the state are clearly in the grip of fear and uncertainty. The indiscriminate bombing in Lebanon and Gaza and the resultant killing of civilians and destruction of infrastructure, the kidnapping of Hamas legislators, the targeting of a U.N. observer post and now the outrage on Qana are desperate acts increasingly outside the bounds of common sense.

Completely out of the blue on several recent occasions and in leaflets dropped on the Lebanese, Israeli leaders have felt compelled to mention their power to erase Lebanon from the planet. The Israelis are blustering past the graveyard and their bully’s trepidation is bound to grow now that their adventure has gone badly. Prime Minister Olmert and his security cabinet are moving in fits and starts. When the Israeli military’s nose was bloodied at Bint Jbail they gave up on the idea of driving to the Litani River to establish their so-called buffer zone. When the security cabinet realized the electrifying effect of this turn on the Arab people, they poured troops across the border and returned to their original plan but deep down they know that militarily speaking, only a Pyrrhic victory is available against Hizbollah.

One thing the Israeli assault on the Gaza and Lebanon has made clearer is the alignment of forces in the Arab and Muslim world. Ironically, in different fashions both Hamas and Hizbollah were creations of Israel. Hamas was supposed to act as a counterweight to the Palestine Liberation Organization when Israel considered the PLO the most immediate threat to their domination of the Arab majority. Hizbollah filled the gapping chasm Israel created with the 1982 invasion and years long occupation of southern Lebanon. Both Hamas and Hizbollah have, through years of disciplined work and organizing, woven themselves into the lives of the respective peoples they seek to liberate. What a stark contrast with the rich Arab boys who have created the cult they call al-Qaeda. See the clownish Ayman al-Zawahiri rush to his camcorder after Hizbollah faces down the Israeli military to spout some silly rhetoric about a caliphate from Spain to Iraq in front of a poster that screams, “Please remember us, we did 9/11!”

Under normal circumstances the impending death of a form of racism like Zionism (see the picture of young Israeli girls writing messages and drawing on missile warheads soon to rain down on Lebanon) and the establishment of a secular state on the territory Israel now occupies where Palestinian Arabs of various religious persuasions and Jews could peacefully co-exist as equals would be cause for human celebration. Unfortunately, the insanity that clearly grips Israel means they will likely resort to attacks on Damascus and Tehran and then to use of their nuclear arsenal when all else fails. And that, on a larger scale, is the dilemma that the whole world faces as the capitalist system spearheaded by the United States passes into history.

I hope progressives, liberals and democrats can remember the Republican’s malicious strategy of DIVIDE AND CONQUER. If we come down too hard on Israel, we will alienate the Jewish vote, and that will spell election disaster for our side.

IRRATIONALITY RULES, always has, always will, and there’s nothing we can do about it, except be aware of it. Don’t let the malevolently cunning Republicans use another inflammatory issue to further divide our country. Cunning and intelligence are not equal and far from the same thing. With reason we can work to resolve the Middle-East conflict peacefully in the future, but not if the trouble making, war-profiteers retain power.

I was presenting a hypothetical to make a point--I don’t believe the Palestinians ever proferred a true diplomatically acceptable presence that would be able to accomplish anything.  As for the Knesset, at the time Barak could have accomplished anything with the number of bombings going on.  As for the right of return--what right of return?  How can a group of people that come primarily and originally from Egypt and Jordan have a right to return to a land they never had any claim to?

Maxim............

Granted, Arafat was admittedly a pretty pathetic choice to represent the Palestinians in this instance.  But even if a really top notch, eminently qualified rep was there, there would STILL have been the issue of Barak getting the Knesset to approve a land concession of that magnitude.  He would have probably been lucky to have gotten a figure of 80%.  And those settlers would fight tooth & nail.

So perhaps the Palestinians(with this more qualified rep)would have “settled” for 70% BUT with a guarantee on the “Right of Return” for the exiled refugees.  Would Barak have then said “OK?”
Perhaps but again, he would have faced tremendous obstacles within the Knesset and maybe even a fair amount of Israelis besides.

And with what’s going on these days, forget about any such “negotiations”.

Kwagmyre,

You’ve covered the facts pretty well--but here’s another one to consider.  Suppose you are Yassir Arafat and the Prime Minister of Israel has not only agreed to sit down with you and discuss the issues, but has offered you a very large proportion of what you’ve been asking for all these years.  Would you simply walk away, or would you give the guy some credit for trying and continue to hammer out the details?  Seems to me that would have been the logical way to go--if Arafat was interested in peace.  Which he wasn’t.  As leader of the PLO--which, by the way, was formed in 1964, when the West Bank was Jordanian territory and Gaza was Egyptian, and there were no Israeli “oppressors” in either place, with the express intent (as listed in their charter) of destroying Israel--Arafat did nothing to encourage a peaceful coexistence and didn’t even bother to change the PLO’s charter to reflect its negation of the “destruction of Israel” statement.  It seems to me that Arafat was full of shit the whole time and that there was no concession Barak or anyone else could have made that would have made him happy.

Israel, the US and the UK all need a new set of leaders, complete change of political philosophy and a sweep out of people in government who think that a plan implemented and proven wrong, even disasterous and destructive can be made right by just doing more of it. Israel needs a firm, supportive friend, who will tell them that they have walked to the edge of a cliff and must take several steps back. This is simply because if subjugating the Palestinian population was not the way to go...and it wasn’t....then attempting to do the same to 300 million other owners of rights in the Middle East is dangerously irrational. I fear Israel is acting irrationaly.

Stated earlier by Maxim:
After all, Ehud Barak offered to cede 97% of Arafat’s land demands in the 1990’s and Arafat walked away from the table.

That’s true but it’s more complex than “just” that.  Barak came across in a supercilious manner to Arafat(not that the latter was the paragon of virtue as we’ve since learned)and essentially acted like you’d better take it or else.......

Secondly, even with this territorial concession, the roads or highways in the land given to the Palestinians would still remain under Israeli control or supervision.  A friend gave me an analogy saying it was like Barak saying, “Sure, we’ll grant you all the upper floors of the hotel we once owned but we still keep the lobby.”

Now Arafat also had his own agenda to be sure.  He wanted the “Right of Return” granted to expelled Palestinian refugees

which has long been a bone of contention between the two sides.  And Barak said no to that and it’s quite unlikely Israel would ever agree to it as well.

But you have to keep in mind also that even had Arafat abandoned that agenda and agreed to the terms laid down by Barak, the latter would have then had to segure the approval of the Knesset IN ADDITION TO the enormous difficulty of uprooting all the settlements that were in effect by that time as was recently evident in the Gaza strip.

As far as I know, the above is a pretty accurate account but I stand corrected in case I’ve omitted anything relevant to the issue.

Add to the reasons why us Americans should be challenging our government’s support of Israel, that country’s sinking of the USS Libertty on June 8, 1967, while our naval intelligence ship was monitoring that year’s Arab-Israeli war.  Thirty- four young American sailors died in that attack, which was carried out by Isaeli aircraft and torpedo boats.  Afterwards Israel apologized and said it was a tragic mistake. 

What a coincidence, eh what?  A few days ago, in another tragic mistake, this time in Lebanon, the Israelis killed four UN observers.  How come Israel’s tragic mistakes only wipe out those who just happen to be observing its military actions?  They did it deliberately?  How could they?  Isn’t israel our ally?  But is it really?

So why does our government keep supporting Israel?  It’s in the interest of the powers that be, that’s why.  Anyone who believes otherwise; hey, want to buy the Golden Gate Bridge?

Where can one begin, in explaining why the US must stop all support for the Israeli regime and even regard it as an enemy? So much evidence, so little space, such closed, hasbara-poisoned minds....

OK, kids, let’s just take one example here, one that ALONE would suffice, even if Israel hadn’t been behaving for decades like the enemy of peace that it profoundly is.

It’s a nice, fresh, bloody example, fresh from the butcher:

Regarding Israel’s recent, plainly deliberate murder of UN observers: we know that no fewer than ten telephone calls were made to Israeli military commanders over a six-hour time frame warning that Israel’s aerial and artillery barrage was either perilously close to or actually hitting the clearly marked UN complex.

The UN monitoring post, just inside the southern Lebanese border, was plainly marked and thoroughly known to the Israeli army; nevertheless Israel’s vaunted “precision” bombardment hit the UN post directly 4 times in the final hour before an Israeli helicopter launched a “precision"-guided missile that sliced precisely through the roof of an underground shelter, precisely killing the monitors inside. Israel also precisely fired on a UN convoy which arrived (too late) to rescue the UN observers.

This alone is reason for not only the US but the entire world to regard Israel as a precisely criminal regime that deserves a precisely complete withdrawal of all support and an international policy of strict quarantine. Israel [sigh...no, not each and every Israeli; and not ‘the Jews’] is an armed and dangerous sociopathological murderer-state. The approach to Israel at this point must be one of complete distrust and extreme caution.

The ultra right wing Trotskyites that make up the Neo Cons are some of the worst, most dangerous people on the planet.  They are more holy warriors than all other holy warriors.  I knew of these people when I was a “kid” and actually meet some of them when I was a member of the Young Peoples Socialist League. Then, their only ideology was anti communism by any means necessary, they created the doctrine that communists had to be wiped off the face of the earth because if they came to power they would abolish “democracy”. These so called socialists in the name of democracy, would destroy democracy.

Now of course they are anti socialist and endorse the doctrine of greed. These converts to fascism like David Horowitz endanger all of mankind and do threaten wide scale death on this planet.

Spinoza,

I realize of course that the best way to achieve peace is to kill all the opposition--but come on..."Liberals, right wingers will kill you.” Are you serious?  Oh, and why is it okay to recommend the death of right-wingers, but not that of Hezbollah terrorists?

A History Lesson

The anti-colonial liberation movement was based on Arab Socialism and Pan Arabism. (1950 – 1970’s) The socialism represented all sorts of views but the USA in anti-Communist mode used the CIA to attack all left modernizing movements and with their friends in Saudi Arabia supported and very well funded, Islamist movements. The CIA was literally killing leftists and paying for the printing of Korans. Communism in the anti Colonial struggle was a form of Nationalism. Islamism today has been turned into a form of Nationalism.

I would have much preferred Communism to Islamism. It should be also mentioned in passing that the Israeli government as it moved to the right and became a neo fascist state also tended to support Islamists against the leftists such as the PLO.  History has turned a cruel trick on the Jews.  The Islamists have turned into a form of Nationalism which Israelimerikkka calls terrorists.

What is the lesson to be learned?

1. Right wingers killing left wingers don’t always get what they wish.

2. What should have the left learned?  Never trust anyone but a left winger. Liberals, right wingers will kill you.

ALWAYS, ALWAYS remember, a dead fascist is the best type of fascist. The defeat of USA Imperialism is the fight for humanity in the world today.

Mark,

I’d like to see some examples of this so-called “militant expansionism” of yours.  I wasn’t aware that waging war against terrorist organizations like Hezbollah, Hamas, and the PLO was known as militant expansionism.  I also wasn’t aware of any “racist oppression” of anyone.  In fact, Israel pulled out of Gaza and parts of the West Bank and what they got was more dead Israelis.  So who’s the racist here?  Has it occurred to you that maybe the Palestinian government is the one to blame for the current state of the Palestinian people.  After all, Ehud Barak offered to cede 97% of Arafat’s land demands in the 1990’s and Arafat walked away from the table.
Perhaps I am a Zionist Maximalist--I like that, BTW, it’s quite clever, LOL--but that doesn’t change the facts of the past 60 years of Israel’s existence?  Or does it???

Maxim pontificates: “… the vast majority [of Jews] are Zionist and believe that Israel does speak for their needs.”

Let’s break this down. It really entails two assertions:

(1) Assertion #1: “The vast majority of Jews are Zionist”—That’s probably so in the sense that they think Israel has a right to exist and that its founding was a good thing in the first place. I would like to see evidence, however, that the “vast majority” of Jews are Zionist in the sense of supporting the Israeli government’s militant expansionism, occupation of the West Bank, racist oppression of the Palestinians, etc. That may be YOUR Zionism—a sort of Zionist maximalism—but I doubt that Jews in general by a “vast majority” support it, my dear well-named “Maxim”.

(2)Assertion #2: “The vast majority of Jews believe that Israel does speak for their needs.”—Whoa! That is very doubtful indeed. I’d like to see where you are getting that factoid. If it’s true, it would be evidence of a collective stupidity on the part of “the vast majority” of Jews that I find difficult to imagine being the case.

Geronimo:

I wouldn’t think that non-Israeli Jews such as myself would have to repudiate Zionism as you put it(if that were translated as Israel’s total relinquishing of all the land captured since its inception).  Instead, they(or we)should repudiate the ongoing, seemingly never ending financial and military support of the U.S. at $3 billion per year that sustains the Zionist oppression of the Palestinians. 

But unfortunately we’d be pretty hard pressed to find any Congressmen(or women)with the balls to stand up against this kind of ossified thinking on the matter.

Geronimo,

While you certainly have the right to state your opinion on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, I think it may be best to leave the decision on whether Zionism is the good for the Jews to the Jews, as you don’t seem to know very much about it.  And while there are a minority of Jews who are anti-Zionist, the vast majority are Zionist and believe that Israel does speak for their needs.  So say what you want about Israel, but when it comes to Zionist ideology, keep your uneducated mouth shut.

We can see from many of the posts here that when in doubt the Zionist resorts to playing the anti-Semitic card.  So much so that it’s like the little child that yelled wolf so many times that when the real wolf came along nobody paid any attention to the child’s calls for help. 

The irony here is that it’s the Zionists themselves who are anti-Semitic, not those who oppose their racist ideology. Why?  Because Zionism makes the false claim that Israel speaks for Jews everywhere, not just Israeli Jews.  Thus when the time comes for the powers that be to part ways with Israel and switch to the Arab/Palestinian side, they’ll have to give an explanation as to why in the first place did they side with Israel.  They won’t dare tell the truth - “Israel’s aggression towards its neighbors stoked the fear that was the driving force behind the war on terror, which we needed in order to hold on to power.”

Of course they wouldn’t say that.  Stupid they’re not!  So what are they gonna say?  How about, “It wasn’t our fault.  It was those you know who, the sneaky, greedy, hook-nosed, pushy New York, Chicago and Los Angeles Christ-killer types.  They’re the evil ones that tricked us into supporting Israel.”

That’s when it’ll be obvious that Zionism not only isn’t in the interest of the Jewish people, but that it’s innately and intrinsically anti-Semitic. 

How to prevent the above frightening scenario from playing out?  What has to happen is that the word has to get out that now is the time for all self-loving Jews to renounce Zionism and to demand justice for the Palestinian people.  That’ll save the day, for the Jewish people as for the world.

common ground is very unlikely

Agreed.

With regards Hezbolla, I don’t think they are anymore terrorist than Israel and the USA.  Based on the amount of damage done the USA and Israel are much worse.

Yes, let us hope that very few get killed on all sides and they don’t succeed in drawing in Syria and Iran.

Spinoza,

You’re right, common ground is very unlikely.  I would like to say that despite our disagreement on the issue I have enjoyed our discussion, unlike some of the other posts here.  Thank you for the thought-provoking argument, and I think it is safe to say that we both wish the best for the innocents on both sides of the conflict.  So thanks again.

Anyone not wanting to kill right wingers is an enemy of peace.

Peace prize winner ‘could kill’ Bush

Annabelle McDonald July 25, 2006 NOBEL peace laureate Betty Williams displayed a flash of her feisty Irish spirit yesterday, lashing out at US President George W.Bush during a speech to hundreds of schoolchildren. Campaigning on the rights of young people at the Earth Dialogues forum, being held in Brisbane, Ms Williams spoke passionately about the deaths of innocent children during wartime, particularly in the Middle East, and lambasted Mr Bush.

“I have a very hard time with this word ‘non-violence’, because I don’t believe that I am non-violent,” said Ms Williams, 64.

“Right now, I would love to kill George Bush.” Her young audience at the Brisbane City Hall clapped and cheered.

“I don’t know how I ever got a Nobel Peace Prize, because when I see children die the anger in me is just beyond belief. It’s our duty as human beings, whatever age we are, to become the protectors of human life.”

Ms Williams was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize 30 years ago, when she circulated a petition to end violence in Northern Ireland after witnessing British soldiers shoot dead an IRA member who was driving a car. He veered on to the footpath, killing two children from one family instantly and fatally injuring a third.

Ms Williams’s petition had tens of thousands of Protestant and Catholic women walking the streets together in protest. Now the former office receptionist heads the World Centres of Compassion for Children International, a non-profit group working to create a political voice for children.

“My job is to tell you their stories,” Ms Williams said of a recent trip to Iraq.

“We went to a hospital where there were 200 children; they were beautiful, all of them, but they had cancers that the doctors couldn’t even recognise. From the first Gulf War, the mothers’ wombs were infected.

“As I was leaving the hospital, I said to the doctor, ‘How many of these babies do you think are going to live?’

“He looked me straight in the eye and said, ‘None, not one’. They needed five different kinds of medication to treat the cancers that the children had, and the embargoes laid on by the United States and the United Nations only allowed them three.”

Wrapping up the three-day forum yesterday, delegates agreed to a 26-point action plan.

“There can be no sustainable peace while the majority of the world’s population lives in poverty,” they said.

“There can be no sustainable peace if we fail to rise to the global challenge presented by climate change.

“There can be no sustainable peace while military spending takes precedence over human development.”

----------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------

“Prime Minister Maliki missed an important opportunity to state his position on Hezbollah, and instead left the impression that he does not oppose this terrorist organization’s outrageous attacks on Israel,” said Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass.

Never mind Israel’s invasion of Lebanon, let’s focus instead on “this terrorist organization’s outrageous attacks on Israel”. This pretty much sums up our Democratic leader’s position on the war. As we all know, both political parties court American Jews for campaign contributions and votes, but don’t any of our leaders have the courage to say, Whoa!
Friends don’t let friends drive drunk, and friends don’t let friends run amuck in a tinderbox like the middle east. We don’t let children play with fire, and sometimes even slap their hands to make the point.
Do we have any leaders with courage and common sense?

Yes I consider such people as Spinoza, Einstein, Russell, Marx and even at one time ben Gurion as heros and I have spent some time in Israel including being on Kibbutzim.  By no stretch of the imagination was Israel ever socialist though the Kibbutzim were and to a slight degree still are.  I stay abreast of what goes on there because my sister has lived there since the early 70’s.

However we are now not speaking because she insists on supporting her fascist government.

I was amused at your sophistry in defence of “democratic capitalism” which all sentient beings knows can not exist.  All capitalist countries are forms of plutocracy and have nothing to do with the rule of the demos.

I suspect that you are familar with Mussolini’s essays on political economy in the 30’s and on.  He was very clear as to what he meant by capitalism/corporatism and Nationalism and the role of the military in society.  For all intents and purposes he is describing precisely the USA and Israel since Reagans time.  I know already in advance that you will disdain my remarks and instead of lengthy polemics it is best we drop the issue as the chances of common ground are nil.

One can not achieve peace by making war. Right wingers refuse to learn that simple lesson. It is an impossiblity and as a result I believe if fair play is to prevail right wingers must be taken off the planet. 

(Besides having a discussion with this moderation is a pain in the ass).

I wept when I got a wart on the tip of my nose
I wept for days
Until today in fact

Then I met a thing that would not see
Nor hear
Nor reason

It belched out words like vomit
Fouling itself
And anyone standing near

It began to sing
I’m lost without a mirror
For me to see me

Enough of this discussion about the whys and wherefores of the Mideast conflict.  Time now for us to come up with the solution.  For starters how about the random selection of fifty Palestinians and fifty Israelis to meet in South Africa for the purpose of coming up with a just peace plan?  South Africa being chosen as the meeting place because it’s had recent experience in switching peacefully from a colonial regime to a government that’s of the people, by the people and for the people.

TO: Comment #15088 by rabblerowzer

After reading your 14 items “ENRON BUSH” has obtained and or established all! 

Criminal Bush needs replaced and FAST!

Thanks for the info.

Sincerely
Mother of US SPecial Forces Soldier
d-green
green
rangers
seals

Fascism has fourteen attributes, it seems.  Let’s examine some of them and see if they apply either here in the US or in Israel.  First, let’s take the religion part of it.  Here in the US, recent Supreme Court decisions have taken the Ten Commandments out of courts and schools, and forbidden prayer in schools.  A lower court decision almost succeeded in removing the words “Under God” from the Pledge of Allegiance.  I’m not arguing that this is wrong, I’m simply stating that under a fascist state where religion is tied in with government, this would certainly not be allowed to happen.  I also ask that you show me one instance of forced religion in Israel, which, while being a Jewish state, uses that term as a cultural referent not as a state religion.  No one in Israel is forced to be Jewish.  In fact, about 2 million people out of six are not.
Next, rampant sexism and racism--let’s see now, the Secretary of State, Condoleezza Rice happens to be black and a woman and one of the most powerful people in our government.  Even more ahead of us in this regard is Israel--let’s not forget Golda Meir, of Blessed Memory. 
Moving on, I repeat that our continuing discussion of these topics here is ample proof that there is no lack of human rights and civil liberties.  When was the last time any one of you was arrested in the dark of night and dragged off to Gitmo?  Personally, I’m still waiting for that.  As for the Mass Media, correct me if I’m wrong--I’m sure you will even if I’m not--but CBS, NBC, ABC, etc. are not exactly Bush friendly.  Let’s not forget Dan Rather’s Bush Air National Guard Documents.  The Israeli press, if controlled by the government, would, I assume not want to show protestors against their own policies.  Yet, this was all over the news, as were reports about the horrible plight of Jewish settlers being kicked out of their communities, as per government orders.  Corporate power is protected?  What about Martha Stewart?  Ken Lay?  Tycho?  Anybody remember them?  All of that corruption started during the Clinton years, and before.  Certainly you wouldn’t call him a fascist as well?  You say that a fascist state disdains intellectuals and the arts.  Well, when art is defined as Mapplethorpe’s Crucifix in a jar of urine, I disdain it too.  Even so, the Brooklyn Museum of Art did show the paintings of the Virgin Mary covered in Elephant Dung--and it’s a governmentally funded museum.  I’ve been to Israel, and their museums show the same types of problems.  In addition, half a dozen different independent agencies--discounting that overweight genius Michael Moore--have shown that the Florida votes actually did give Bush the election--like it or not.  You want to talk about fraudulent elections, how about Kennedy and Mayor Daly?  As for nationalism, you seem to define it as any form of open patriotism.  I guess the fact that flag-burning here and in the Mideast is legal and protected under the First Amendment doesn’t count.  Yes indeed, we truly do live in a fascist society.

Spinoza--I would like to cordially point out that David Ben Gurion, founding father of Modern Israel was himself a subscriber to Socialist ideology.  The development of kibbutzes and moshavs is a socialist idea.  The national labor union is as well.  Britain has many of these same things--so I doubt anyone in either country would be surprised at being call socialist.  It is simply a fact.

BTW--Personal question--is your name really Spinoza, or are you just an adherent to his philosophy?  I really am curious and hope to hear from you soon.

I posted a replay to Maxim much earlier this morning but it did not get posted yet. I did receive an email however that I received a reply to it.  This is very confusing and the moderation system seems to have not worked out well.

> I see the term “fascist” being applied both to the capitalist USA and socialist Great Britain, as well as quasi-socialist Israel, all of which have very different political philosophies in hand.

Maxim I am certain the Brits and Israelis will be suprised to know that they are living in socialist countries.  And of course my term fascist was slightly hyperbolic as they are not their quite yet.  But with more and more big brotherism and more and more corporate control and with the application of militarist and nationalist ideology coated over with a heavy dose of racism, well my friend, the fascists won!  In fact judging from the rest of your essay it seems they might have won you over also.

Think deeply about the world you live in and the one you want to live in.

I just sent this message to a liberal Jewish organization in response to an e mail.  I strongly recommend that my fellow Jews here read the article by Mr. Hirsh.

Good people,

I would like to make you aware of this article because I think it makes some very important points about the perception of Jews in the world.  The saying that Jews are their own worse enemy seems to be proven by the strong move to the far right by the Jewish establishment.  World wide Jews are now being portrayed as Nazi’s. I think this is going to have disastrous results. The racist anti-Arab sentiments being expressed by much of the Israeli leadership is unfortunate.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14176.htm



----- Original Message -----
From: Brit Tzedek v’Shalom

The Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism
1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need.” The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.
6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

(Source: The Fourteen Defining Characteristics of Fascism, Dr. Lawrence Britt, Spring 2003, Free Inquiry)

The sour bile spewing from the comments here is sad, and only emphasizes the points about hate and extremism made by Christopher Hedges. It would be nice if we would each try to exercise some empathy and compassion.

Well guys, it seems this thread has completely degenerated at last.  I see phrases like “bastard” and “Mr. evil Zionist” being thrown around like rice at a wedding.  I see the term “fascist” being applied both to the capitalist USA and socialist Great Britain, as well as quasi-socialist Israel, all of which have very different political philosophies in hand.  Perhaps the definition of “fascism” has changed, but I certainly wasn’t informed.  So thanks to all for the info.  I’ve decided to change my position and become a liberal anti-Zionist.  Yep, that’s right.  I am now going to stand up for the rights of Hezbollah to bomb Us troops as it did in the early ‘80s and Israeli civilians as it is doing now.  After all, they’re not terrorists, they’re freedom fighters.  The only thing is, I’m still trying to figure out whose freedom they’re fighting for--because it surely isn’t for the Lebanese that they’re doing this.  I’m also going to support the Palestinian fighters in Gaza.  Why not?  After all, they’re led by freedom-loving Hamas; yet another group--won’t call them terrorists--supported by the benevolent Iranian government of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.  They’re good people, really.  I’ve decided that I must be smarter than that idiot Bush--the one who’s made sure that we haven’t been hit once since 9/11.  I’m going to stand in support of liberty, and allow Israel to be destroyed because they have taken the freedom of religion away from Hezbollah and Hamas.  My only real problem with my new-found leftist ideology is the sudden lack of moral foundations.  I find myself adrift.  Rabblerowzer, Geronimo, Fadel Abdallah--help me, please!!  Oh, wait, that was just a horrible nightmare.  I’ve awakened, back to my conservative rabid right-wing Jewish self.  Geronimo--I don’t recall ever having said anything about Israel going after the world, as you put it.  All I meant was that there is no reason why Israel should care what the world thinks when it comes to its own national security.  Rabblerowzer, as for your comparison of ancestral homelands, there’s a bit of a difference.  I know you don’t believe in the Torah, or Bible, or anything else religious.  But read it sometime and maybe you’ll understand what I mean by ancestral.  And for the rest of you who oppose a country’s right to defend itself from terrorist agression, I recommend you go and live in Rosh Hanikrah or some such other place on the Lebanese border and see what it’s like.  I warn you though, you may not come back--to the detriment of all.

Comment #14968:

Try to imagine the furious anger, vengefulness, sense of rejection, heartbreak and grief these people (and all Jews) have been dealing with since the Holocaust...Imagine being tormented by all of those feelings at once… Any one of those searing emotions unresolved would unhinge the strongest minded and Israel’s response to Arab resentment of the cruel US/UK disregard for their greivances has never made the kind of good practical sense the Jewish community is capable of

VERY RIGHT ON! 

What one observes then is the acquisition of a “siege mentality” among much of the Israeli population in the wake of the Holocaust and the long lasting impact this would have.  Such a mentality also gives rise to a highly rigid world view which sees compromise as the kind of pernicious weakness which could irreversibly lead to a second Holocaust. 

In the most “benign” form, this would manifest as chronic mistrust of the Palestinians(or any others for that matter expressing frustration with Israel’s intransigence)and in the more “malignant” form as a “shoot first and answer questions later” as we currently witness in Lebanon.

I wish some of the very thoughtful people commenting in this blog, would think for a while, seriously about a possible psychological root of this conflict. Comment #14086 started on this theme in a kind of flippant way but perhaps a valid lead..I have been thinking recently that Israel “got started on the wrong foot” in its relations with the Middle East because of the mind set of the people who set the ‘psychological’ tone, goals and methods of the new country...I think we have to consider that these people were suffering from an unimaginable ‘post traumatic distress syndrome’ and saw the entire gentile world as their enemy.Try to imagine the furious anger, vengefulness, sense of rejection, heartbreak and grief these people (and all Jews) have been dealing with since the Holocaust...Imagine being tormented by all of those feelings at once… Any one of those searing emotions unresolved would unhinge the strongest minded and Israel’s response to Arab resentment of the cruel US/UK disregard for their greivances has never made the kind of good practical sense the Jewish community is capable of......IT WAS AN EVIL COWARDLY THING TO LET THEM VENT ALL THIS ON THE PALESTINIANS AND THE LEBANESE....THAT IS WHERE THE USA FAILED THE ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST MISERABLY...It may be what has irked Noam Chomsky all these years about Washington.

Rightwing Jews who accuse liberal Americans of anti-Semitism because of our criticism of Israeli aggression ought to put their ears to ground and listen to what redneck republicans have to say about them. There appears to be a truce between Jews and fundamentalist Christians due to Rapture ideology, but if you scratch the surface you will hear the same old rightwing hatred that caused the Holocaust.

Basically what they are saying about the Rapture is this, “Jews must renounce their religion and convert to Christianity, or suffer the consequences.”.

Liberal Americans deplore Israeli aggression and rightwing government, but we don’t hate Jews.

Israel and the United States are ruled by Fascist governments that believe that “might makes right” and the survival of the fittest and they are the fittest. England is another active fascist state. I also believe there are many fanatics in the Muslim world who hate Jews per se and not because they are Imperialists.

I think there are two schools of thought amongst the neoCon Lukudniks. One school wants to just kick the Palestinians out of Greater Israel and kick Hezbollah out of Lebanon including all of the Shi’ia. (South Lebanon will be added to Israel). The other school wants to do that but also force the USA to bomb the hell out of Syria and Iran so that they never again will think of attacking Israel in any way. These assholes have not thought through the consequences of their behavior and ideology.

To 14861 D. Bodenstein:

Earlier I sent a message worthy of a “bastard"(1) hating Zionnist like you. However, I forgot to answer your question as to what group I belong to.

I am a free-lancer in the universal freedom-fighters movement for liberation from the state-sponsored terrorism of U.S. Government and Zionist Israel.

My weapons are reason, free-thinking, compassion for the oppressed and down-trodden, love for the truth and passionate hate for ignorant misguided savages and bloodthirsty animals like yourself.

I also use as weapons a critical mind, a computer and two fingers to type. I am sure cowards like you are frightened to death from my simple natural weapons, and will think of these as weapons of mass destruction, and wish you were living in the perfect police state, like Israel, so you can deprive me from my freedom.

(1) courtesy of D. Bodenstein, the ultimate Zionist.

D. Bodenstein hyperventilates:

“WESTERN EUROPE’S PATIENCE WITH GROUPS LIKE HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS IS GROWING THINNER BY THE DAY.  IN FACT, THE WORLD IS BECOMING MORE SYMPATHETIC TO ISRAEL” --

Well, the Guardian reports just now:

“Britain dramatically broke ranks with George Bush last night over the Lebanon crisis, publicly criticising Israel’s military tactics and urging America to ‘understand’ the price being paid by ordinary Lebanese civilians.”

So, Bodenstein: things with Western Europe are just fine—except for the fact that our most slavish ally has “dramatically broken” with us because Israel’s leaders are behaving like the callous creeps they deeply are:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1826969, 00.html

To 14861 D. Bodenstein:

I spell “bastard” as “bastard”; the way it should be spelled and that’s you Mr. evil Zionist. Don’t try to play the civilized when people like you and the terrorist movement you belong to are the ones that invented terrorism and introduced it on a large scale to the Middle East. Don’t try to give me this bullshit, you bloody filthy Zionist! You should know that you live in a glasshouse, and for that reason you should not throw stones at others!

“Geronimo,” Mr Abdallah and “Mark”:

I have only one question for you: to what terrorist group do you belong?

I note that not once, in all of your accusatory BS, do you cite even one, single, verifiable fact; instead, you do exactly what all fanatical terrorist leaders do: attack anyone who disagrees with you by name-calling.  YOU ARE PATHETIC!

The most fortunate thing for us is that, at least here in America (as in most of the developed world), hate-filled b*stards like you account for only a tiny fraction of the population!

p.s.: “pariah state?” “The whole world standing against Israel?” I THINK NOT - READ THE NEWS - WESTERN EUROPE’S PATIENCE WITH GROUPS LIKE HEZBOLLAH AND HAMAS IS GROWING THINNER BY THE DAY.  IN FACT, THE WORLD IS BECOMING MORE SYMPATHETIC TO ISRAEL WITH EACH AND EVERY SUCESSIVE, UNPROVOKED BOMBING AND TERRORIST ATTACK.  TRY THAT ON FOR SIZE!

“This is the world of the apocalypse.”

Chris--that’s exactly what “our” President wants.  He thinks he’s going to bring Jesus back.

re:  Comment #19750 by Mark

Unfortunately the crimes of the “odious pariah state Israel” are our crimes, too, being that from the get-go America has supported Israel.  Why only a few hours ago our president announced that he’d be sending more bombs to israel.  Isn’t it a crime to provide weapons to someone who uses them to mass- murder women and children? 

What makes America’ s power elite do this?  It’s in their interest to do so (as opposed to what’s in the interest of the American people), that’s why, as per Comment # 14784 by Rabblerowzer.  Keep in mind, too, that the powers that be count on Israel to commit violence against its neighbors, even though they know that Israel’s behavior will “stoke the fear that’s the driving force behind all messianic violent movements”

Such as this push by our power elite to rule the world. 

Which is why it’s a mistake to put all the blame on the Jewish settler-state. 

What’s the answer?

We the people changing the world, that’s what

.

Thank goodness for this article.  If people don’t like it, perhaps they forget that Isral had a border in 1948, 1967, 1972 and yet “settlers̶