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Fear and Loathing at Philadelphia’s BattleCry

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Posted on May 13, 2006
BattleCry collage
Images: YouTube & rogouski.com / Illustration: Blair Golson

The above scenes are taken from video clips of BattleCry concerts across the country this year—with the exception of the images of gun-toting Navy SEALs up on stage. Those are personal photos of a BattleCry attendee. Although we’re not exactly sure what the Navy SEALs—perhaps the most lethal combat personnel on the planet—have to do with spreading the “word of God.”

By Sunsara Taylor

Editor’s note: This is the second in a series of columns about the Christian fundamentalist movement BattleCry, which has produced several massive Christian rock shows across the country this year. For more info on BattleCry and its activities, check out the first column in the series of three here, and the third column here.

  • Update: Read what BattleCry attendees are saying about this column.
  •  

  • Update #2: User-submitted photos available: page 1 and page 2 (Including images of Navy SEALs addressing the crowd—as seen in the collage above. Nothing says “God’s love” like an elite killing machine.)

  • It began with fireworks so loud and startling I screamed. Lights and smoke followed, and a few kids were pulled up on stage from the crowd. One was asked to read a letter.

    This was the letter that opened the event. Its author was George W. Bush.  Yes, the president of the United States sent a letter of support, greeting, prayer and encouragement to the BattleCry event held at Wachovia Spectrum Stadium in Philadelphia on May 12. Immediately afterward, a preacher took the microphone and led the crowd in prayer. Among other things, he asked the attendees to ?Thank God for giving us George Bush.?

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    On his cue, about 17,000 youths from upward of 2,000 churches across America and Canada directed their thanks heavenward in unison.

    Throughout the three and a half hours of BattleCry?s first session, I thought of   only one analogy that fit the experience: This must have been what it felt like to watch the Hitler Youth, filled with self-righteous pride, proclaim the supremacy of their beliefs and their willingness to shed blood for them.

    And lest you think this is idle paranoia, BattleCry founder Ron Luce told the crowds the next morning (May 13) that he plans to launch a ?blitzkrieg? in the communities, schools, malls, etc. against those who don?t share his theocratic vision of society.

    Blitzkrieg.

    Nothing like a little Nazi imagery to whip up the masses. *(see editor’s note at bottom)

    But back to the first rally, on May 12. Shortly after we sat down, Tom, a man of imposing size who appeared to be a BattleCry security staffer, sat down next to me and my friends and asked us if we were planning any disturbances. I don?t know how BattleCry & Co. knew I was here; they apparently had recognized me from my appearance on “The O?Reilly Factor” (video link) in March. I told Tom that we weren?t planning any disturbances and that, no, I wouldn?t like to meet with BattleCry founder Ron Luce after the rally, nor did I want to give him my phone number. Seemingly satisfied, he ambled off. But later on, as I rose to go to the bathroom, I caught sight of another BattleCry security-type following me. It was very unsettling, to say the least.

    (While in the bathroom, I saw something equally unsettling—a preteen girl wearing a shirt being sported by many attendees that night: Jesus on the cross, robes waving, and emblazoned across the front the words ?Dressed to Kill.?) 

    After my bathroom break, Tom, my helpful minder, was replaced by an eerily cheerful young woman who was also obviously one of the BattleCry personnel. She claimed to be simply making sure that my friends and I were happy. She would stop by several times over the course of the concert. I wonder if all attendees got that kind of VIP treatment. 

    But on to the show.

    The first rock band that performed, Delirious, got the crowd festive and up on their feet with lyrics that were projected on large screens so that everyone could join in: ?We?re an army of God and we?re ready to die…. Let?s paint this big ol? town red…. We see nothing but the blood of Jesus….? 

    Between musical acts, Luce, the BattleCry founder, hammered away at the dominant theme of the night: his contention that ?pew-sitters ... passive Christians ... the Christians who just want love, joy, peace ... ? were the problem, and that the world needed more radical and extreme God-worshippers?those who would be obedient and fully submit to Christ. 

    Luce would have us believe that everything went off track when the Bible-toting people of my grandparents? generation were replaced by the ?pew-sitters? of the Baby Boom generation. These are the people who, according to Luce, just wanted to passively benefit from the ?love, joy and peace? message of Christianity without actively surrendering their wills and their selves completely upon Christ?s altar and working in His name.

    Yeah, if only people would stop practicing ?love, joy and peace.? Wouldn?t that make the world a better place….

    Luce used this critique of pew-sitting Christians to assuage the doubts of the youths at the rally who may have been feeling uncertain about their commitment to the Church. “Don?t worry,” he was telling them, “you?ve been amongst pew-sitters—watered-down Christians. Welcome to the reign of total submission to the Lord.”

    It was a mantra Luce repeated all through the night: the need to submit one?s self fully to Jesus, to belong completely to Him. 

    ?He doesn?t just want to be in your heart, He wants to own your heart…. There?s only one good reason to come to Christ: because He?s the rightful owner of your life…. You don?t have to know much about Jesus, just enough to surrender your whole life.? 

    Throughout this section, a loud crowd from the back of the stadium would periodically erupt, ?We are warriors!?

    After tugging at countless emotional strings, Luce insisted—with the humility of Taliban members who submit to Allah?s command to stone adulterers—?You are the one talking to God, I am just going to help you with the words.? 

    There was a session when, after a great crescendo, the stadium was brought to silence.  Luce instructed individuals to stand up when they felt the spirit and cry out, ?I want the cross!? The voices of hundreds rose up over the course of 10 minutes. These young people, declaring death unto themselves and rebirth in Christ, were called down to the floor of the stadium and directed to get on their knees and put their heads down and pray some more. 

    Luce put great emphasis on following every word in the Bible, treating it as an ?instruction book,? even when a person doesn?t understand or agree. This is, of course, the logic that leads to the stoning of gays, non-virgin brides, disobedient children and much more—because the Bible says so. 

    Chillingly, when I confronted Ron explicitly about these passages, he refused to disavow them. During the afternoon preceding the May 12 rally, Luce and about 300 BattleCry acolytes (almost entirely youths) rallied in front of Philadelphia?s Constitution Hall?the location having been chosen because Luce wants to ?restore? the Founding Fathers? vision of a religious society (never mind that the Founders enshrined in the Constitution an explicitly secular framework of government).

    I and about 20 people representing various anti-Bush, atheistic and anti-Iraq-war factions made our way into the rally and began interacting with the youths assembled. Some said openly that it was OK that George Bush?s lies have cost the lives of thousands of Americans and Iraqis. Why was it OK? Because ?God put him [Bush] there.?

    We then decided to ask them a little about this God, and his ?instruction book,? as Luce calls it. Specifically, we asked them if they supported the parts of Deuteronomy and Leviticus that spell out, for example, death sentences for women who dared to enter the city while menstruating. The most memorable response came from Luce himself. (We were standing face to face in the plaza?he had recognized me from my O?Reilly appearance.)

    ?This is your Bible,? I told him. ?You have to defend this.?

    He smiled, smugly, and almost looked taken aback that I would challenge him like this.

    ?You can?t defend this,? I continued.

    A biblical literalist, Luce couldn?t disavow something in his ?instruction book,? but neither did he want to appear (I imagine) to condone Iron Age barbarity. So he stayed quiet, until, after I prodded him further, he changed the subject.

    ?Why are you so angry?? he asked.

    My point made, I walked away.


    (Editor’s note: There is a debate among readers of this piece over the connotation of the word “blitzkrieg.” Commenter Vira (#9278) argues that “Blitzkrieg” is a German word—not Nazi, per se. And indeed, Wikipedia.org notes that the term “is used in many other non-military contexts. Commenter Paul Danaher (#9351), however, says the terms is indelibly linked in many peoples’ minds to Nazi tactics.

    We had originally struck out the “blitzkrieg” section of this column, but have now decided to let it stand and allow readers to make up their own minds.)


    New and Improved Comments

    If you have trouble leaving a comment, review this help page. Still having problems? Let us know. If you find yourself moderated, take a moment to review our comment policy.

    By Carole, May 28, 2006 at 12:19 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Marie said, “All this stuff about Christians being Nazis is incredible. . . .”


    Marie,  I’d recommend watching the DVD “Theologians Under Hitler”

    It’s true,  Dietrich Bonhoeffer bravely worked to assassinate Hitler.  However there was also the:

    “Deutsche Christen—or ‘German Christian’-movement that came to prominence in the 1920s. It championed a radical, nationalist agenda that merged church and state—to the point of draping a swastika on the church altar.”
    Cliff Vaughn ethicsdaily.com  

    At ethicsdaily.com there is an informative review of this documentary.


    These so-called “Christian” theologians thought Hitler was a “conduit of God,”  and used the bible to promote anti-Semitism.
     
    These “churches”  also displayed photos of Hitler along-side images of Jesus Christ.  Sound familiar?

    Report this

    By Last_Hussar, May 27, 2006 at 6:06 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Dear Mr Raby
    “Once again you liberals are so single minded. Are you actually saying that Saddam and Iraqi terroist had nothing to do with 911.”

    Grass is green, water is wet, Saddam and Iraqi terroist had nothing to do with 911. 

    Sorry if one or more of these upsets you, but it is the truth.

    Osama Bin Ladin actually offered Bush Snr to go and kill Saddam after the invasion of Kuwait.  OBL has nothing but hate for the secular Saddam.

    Iraq was one of the few (if not only) Muslim nation that had Christian Churches.

    Tariq Aziz (Saddam’s deputy) is a Christian- he changed his name (just his name) to ‘fit in better’- a bit like lots of immigrants to USA did.

    Yep, SH did a lot of evil things, but only to secure his position as dictator. He merely used the Muslim thing to keep a country of Muslims onside.

    I do not weep for his removal, but before you pat GW on the back lets look around.

    China- terrible human rights record, one party state, ruthlessly crushes opposition, actually does have WMDs- US response - friendship.

    Rupert Murdoch- owner of Fox and Sky- kicked the BBC off the Asia satelite- reason China took offence at articles into Tianmen square a few years after the event.

    South/Central American dictators- murdered and suppressed their populance… supported by the CIA headed by future president G Bush Snr.

    Now a look at history.  We have to assume that in 1933 the German people were no worse than anyone else.  What changed?  A charismatic leader who seemed to offer a way out of economic despair.  Unfortunately the latest evidence is humans are sheep, and easily led.  I can believe those at the top have bad plans, but those in the chanting audience thought they only had love in their hearts.

    Report this

    By Philip D., May 27, 2006 at 4:47 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    If Jesus actually existed he would not be condemning everyone to hell and advocating warfare.  He was against the religious and secular establishment of his time and loved the poor and disenfranchised.  The very people who say they love him now would be put in the category of “Pharisees.”  Thank you.

    Report this

    By Mary Magdelene, May 27, 2006 at 1:05 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    All you people who are caught up in this religious fervor are being mesmerized by an unholy spirit. This spirit tells you his name is Christ, and you believe him.  This spirit anesthetizes your brain, creating a buzzed-out space where fantasy, delusion, and denial can flourish. This unholy spirit tells you to proselytize—to harvest souls and take away their free will. You call this salvation.  You are really only bible-toting vampires disguised as Christians.  And you don’t even know it!

    Report this

    By Jay, May 26, 2006 at 2:16 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    when the bible was written, maybe 98% of people were illiterate.  i think that the men who wrote it did a pretty good job of something that we really do not appreciate in our super wealthy and super educated age at least here in america (yes, even despite the criticisms of people with imperfect grammar).  think how christianity, with its basic message of love, despite some quotes in the bible about things like slavery unacceptable in a society that strives to eliminate imperfection, (as opposed to an ancient world where introducing the idea of unconditional love as a commandment to people was completely new), lasted through times far less civilized than our own and many people have relied on the supremacy of love, even when it has been mixed with opinions of matters that people disagree about.  even the liberals rely on that supremacy of love that love is king! in their crusade to combat suffering in many different circumstances.  i feel that right now in america and elsewhere, it is hard to be a christian and not know that you should be loving to all.  (i guess that that makes me a believer in peace, joy, and love).

    Report this

    By Marie, May 25, 2006 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    All this stuff about Christians being Nazis is incredible.

    It has only been 60 years, people.

    The few remaining “fundamentalists” in Germany who did not allow a Nazi interpretation of the Bible were put in the camps, too, you know.

    Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Lutheran minister, along with fellow believers, made the only assassination atttempt I know of on Hitler.  Unfortunately he failed.  And was put to death along with his co-conspirators.

    Report this

    By stupid puppy, May 25, 2006 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    “Blitzkrieg is Nazi.”

    Oh, that’s rich.

    Blitzkrieg is a military tactic first used by the Wermacht during WWII.

    Hey, you know what else was first used by the German military during WWII?  Jets!  And Rockets!  Germans (under Nazi rule) also invented one of the first computers.

    See, you didn’t know that NASA was just a bunch of Nazi rocket-users.  But now you do.  And don’t even get me started on those Nazi airlines with their Nazi-like computerized booking systems.  People who love freedom and democracy stick to propellers and the abacus, thank you very much!

    I realize it’s fashionable (read : stupid but popular) these days to liken people to Nazis.  But it wasn’t Blitzkrieg, Jets, Rockets, or Computers (or right-wing propaganda, or nationalism, or disrespect for democracy, etc.) that made the Nazis evil : the Nazis were evil because of the evil things they did

    If Hitler was ok with other races and didn’t like invading foreign countries,  but was otherwise identical, would he still be universally despised?  Would any of us even recognize the name?  Likewise, if Bush is Hitler because they both benefitted from election troubles and got involved in a war, we’ve completely trivialized the evil that Hitler brought upon the world.

    On a broader note, both sides of the arguments here are ignorant and rely on faith.  But, only one side is willing to admit it.

    Report this

    By Harry Vest, May 24, 2006 at 5:43 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Has anyone considered the fact that this whole rise of American Christian “Facism” has been planned for decades??? That there is an earthly power behind the rise of “Christianity” vs “Islam” - that certain people have been pulling certain strings for years. Think about it. Many “right wing” evanagelicals or fundamentalists were within the circle that had John F. Kennedy shot in 1963…then came the “60’s”...then came “The Jesus People” as a reaction to the 60’s…then came “Charismatics”...then came Ronald Reagan, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Tim LaHaye, and the birth of the “Moral Majority”...then came the internet…also in the 90’s a widespread “Holy Laughter” movement…then came the election of 2000…then came George W. Bush…then came 9/11…then came the beginning of the “War On Terror”...then came the Battle Cry movement…then came????????????????????
    There is a pattern here and it is scary.
    There is a strong possibility that indeed we are approaching the end times but it is exactly the OPPOSITE of what these “Christians” would have us believe. There is a possibilty that America is Babylon as spoken of by the ancients, that the American Born Again Evangelical Fundamentalist Church’s are the army of the Beast of Revelation “You will think you are doing God a service by killing them” and that indeed there is a “man” coming to power in the United States that will be the Anti-Christ himself (I’ll admit that Bush is close but I don’t think he’s the guy - a precursor yes, but not THE one). The United States will become a THEOCRACY (it almost already is) and thus prophecy will have it’s way with the world. If you are one who sways towards the Right Wing American Christian veiw I would beg you to dig deep into your faith. There is a really interesting website run by a bunch of believers who have fled out of the United States and now reside in the Rocky Mountains of Canada. I don’t agree with everything they have to say BUT some of it is VERY INTERESTING. Check them out at http://www.antipasministries.com OR http://www.isrp.org

    Report this

    By TheGlimmering, May 24, 2006 at 10:18 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    All right, as a religion scholar (feel free to take that as ex-Christian) I’ve had enough.  If the Christians present are going to debate the Tanakh, disrespectfully referred to as the “Old Testament” here, they ought to at least be informed of a few facts.

    1.  Before entering any debate involving textual criticism, familiarize yourself with the process by which the canon, your Bible, was assembled.  What criteria did the Council of Nicea use to select the books that were included?  What did the attendees of the Council of Nicea who made that selection believe?  On what grounds were the Gospels of Thomas (both of them), Mary, and Judas rejected?  When were the books within the canon actually written?  Who actually wrote them?  Why did Constantine support the Council of Nicea?  Aside from the popular story, under what circumstances did he convert?  After his official conversion, what do his actions tell us about his actual beliefs?

    2.  Before claiming that the Tanakh was laying the groundwork for any later events, familiarize yourself with the history of the Torah, the wisdom books, the books of the prophets and so forth.  How was the canonical Torah assembled?  (Hint: one of the kings claimed he found it, conveniently around the time he was attempting to unite two kingdoms with related beliefs.)  When were the books actually written?  Who actually wrote them?  What was the historical context of the writing?  Second clue: most of the books were composed/compiled during the Exile, after the destruction of the Temple.

    3.  Before assuming you know what Jesus, or Paul for that matter, meant by anything, lock yourself in a room with a blank notebook, a pencil, and the Bible.  Speak to no one else.  Reread what Jesus actually said.  Does Jesus ever say outright that he is God?  Does Jesus every tell anyone to break the commandments?  Does Jesus ever contradict the commandments?  Does Jesus assert that he is even the messiah?  Do you know what the word “messiah” means?  Does the Bible anywhere prior to the arrival of Jesus claim that it is preparing for Jesus or are the only assertions of this dogma and Jesus’ divinity after his death?

    These should make you think, but they probably won’t for a very simple reason: you’ve been told what to think.  After my involvement with the Christian church, specifically a Christian cult, I studied the psychology of brain washing.  Think about the following questions in your head, don’t feel like you have to mention them outloud because if you try to force yourself to, you’ll be forced to rationalize.  Just think about them for now:

    1.  Does your church have the “gift of tongues?”  Are you encouraged to “speak in tongues?”  If you speak in tongues, does it get easier the more you do it?  Does your mouth feel tingly or numb?  Do you talk really fast?  Do you rock while you do it?  Do you find yourself thinking about what you’re saying, sometimes unable to stop yourself?  Is it ever an actual human language that someone outside your church can identify and translate?  Does someone in your church talk to you while you’re speaking in tongues, under the guise of translating?  “Speaking in tongues,” along with extended singing, swaying, rocking, chanting, and certain types of meditation are what psychologists call “thought stop behaviors.”  All sorts of groups, even non-Christian groups, speak in tongues, and it sounds exactly the same wherever you go.  Speaking gibberish, “the tongues of angels” is not Biblical, it’s an excuse to cover up the fact that no one is actually touched by the holy spirit.  When someone is talking to you while you speak in tongues, are you consciously engaging with what they’re saying or does it just slip right in?  Is someone often preaching, “giving a word,” or praying outloud over music as its performed?  Ten to one, I’d bet this was done at Battlecry.  I know because I spoke in tongues.

    2.  When you doubt, does someone “see a spirit” in you?  Do people lay hands on you often?  Are you frequently prompted to confess sins?  Does this leave you in tears?  These are coercive behaviors similar to the behavior of those that sexual prey on children.  First you’re told or made to feel guilty or unworth if you should doubt, or in the child’s case feel dirty or guilty.  They prompt you to bond with them by confessing to them, even things that aren’t sin.  The definition of sin is constantly expanding in these groups.  Once you feel your worst, they “accept you.”  It’s a method of controlling someone.  It’s your fault you have a “spirit” in you because you sinned.  The spirit is responsible for your doubt.  Laying on of hands was never used except as a symbolic gesture to pass on the holy spirit in terms of a missionary calling to someone in the New Testament.  Demons weren’t responsible for every human thought or act, in fact having a demon in you is a very obvious condition Biblically, it’s called “possession.”  Demonic “infestation” does not appear in the Bible.

    For obvious reasons, distributing clues is exhausting on this subject.  More to the point, it won’t help most if any of the Christians present.  To the others: your instincts are right, these gatherings are harmful and coercive and very similar to the manipulation involved in the Hitler youth programs.  Brain washing is brain washing is brain washing, and very real.  Conversion itself is the process of breaking someone down and forcing a mental “snap” at some point, rather than the gradual evolution other healthy personality changes involve.  It’s because we’ve come to blindly accept these symptoms of religious conditioning that we have a hard time seeing these behaviors for what they really are.  Converts are victims who are now turning round to victimize others.

    Report this

    By Kathleen, May 24, 2006 at 9:41 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    you do seem angry.  a lot of people are angry at organized religion, at the church specifically.  but in the end it’s just god.  denominations, churches, rallies even…they don’t matter except as a tool for building one’s faith and love of god.  you got the special treatment because the organizers of battlecry realized that as someone who hasn’t recieved the word of god, you needed (and continue to need) a little extra love.  luce wasn’t speaking about throwing love peace and joy out the window, either.  just instilling a more passionate sense of those words into our hearts.  we are labeled as intolerant, hateful of that not like ourselves.  yes, ladies and gentlemen…here i am, kathleen from the ‘burbs, the next greatest threat to society.  to me, it is hateful, hurtful, and intolerant to be put in the same category as hitler.  i haven’t done one thing wrong except believe in something, which i believe they did leave room for in our government, if not specifically christianity.  buddhists, muslims, even zoroastrians get patted on the back for diversity and for sticking to their (don’t freak out, it’s figurative) guns.  i get laughed at, made fun of, and put down.  if peace and joy are so high on our list of priorities, why does this article exist?  i know it’ll make you angrier, which is not the reason i say this, but i’ll pray for you.

    p.s.  really just a tad of offense meant.  this is me the human, making a bad decision which i’m 100% positive i’ll regret later, so please excuse me:  you are a terrible journalist.  check your syntax.

    Report this

    By troep post, May 24, 2006 at 7:07 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    can’t sleep.  so i am reading.  comments are interesting.

    i am a christian.  been part of/attended lots of christian youth events.  learned lots.

    big shows are perceived to be neccessary. 
    big shows with guns….  a little too fascist for my liking. 

    in the end it comes down to you and God.
    EVERYTHING else is supplemental. 

    People seldom do what they believe in. They do what is convenient, then repent.
    -Bob Dylan

    Report this

    By M, May 23, 2006 at 8:47 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I want to ask you about this:

    “I told Tom that we weren’t planning any disturbances and that, no, I wouldn’t like to meet with BattleCry founder Ron Luce after the rally, nor did I want to give him my phone number.”

    Isn’t it the job of a journalist to get to the truth and the SOURCE of a story in trying to establish the truth of their claims?
    Why didn’t you want to meet with him face to face? I don’t agree with Luce but I find it somewhat disturbing that as a journalist you didn’t want a face to face to finally confront him with all your criticisms and doubts. 
    What are you afraid of?  I’m not trying to be a jerk but the only conclusion I can draw is that you are somewhat intimidated or afraid of him.
    Doesn’t your reluctance to meet with him show YOUR biasness?
    Just a thought.

    M

    Report this

    By fauxreal, May 23, 2006 at 1:40 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Jeff Sharlet wrote about another so-called Christian group that talked about using “Hitler tactics,” or “Stalin tactics” for Christ.

    http://www.harpers.org/JesusPlusNothing.html

    It’s about totalitarianism…about brainwashing..and, yes, that can lead to horrible things, even if you don’t intend them at first.

    Whether you recognize it or not, when you equate Jesus with killing others, no matter what reason, you are violating his entire reason for being in Christian theology.

    Jesus also explicitly said that his kingdom was in heaven, NOT ON EARTH. So, those who want to impose their version of Christianity on this nation are also violating the reason they claim for Jesus’ life.

    And, yes, biblical literalists should give away all they own and live communally, giving aid to the poor and helping the sick. Jesus’ message was radical…but not because of hatred and bloodlust. Jesus wanted the rich to give away their money, if they really wanted to be worthy of his message. The bible never states that tax cuts are from God…or that America is from God, for that matter.

    In this country, if you want to believe that the meaning of life is contained in a head of cabbage, you can…but you may not force others to live under the strictures of your beliefs. That’s in the Constitution…and that’s the “bible” for American democracy…and it does change to correct wrongs, like slavery, for instance.

    That’s the authority for the law in this nation, along with English common law.

    Report this

    By chris lalonde, May 22, 2006 at 12:26 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    we really did enjoy your company at the event. Too bad you couldn’t look past your own opinions for a few moments to enjoy the event. I don’t know where you get the idea of us being a bunch of nazi soldiers who stone gay people though. we definitely aren’t that way at all. I have not been once taught through my entire internship at teen mania how to hate gays or kill people. There’s even interns here who dislike Bush’s leadership as much as you do. I have no hatred towards anyone and being involved with battlecry has taught me to love more than anything ever has. I have been praying for your safety and well being, and I also just pray that you may one time just look past the walls you set up so that you can atleast understand that we don’t oppose you - that you might agree to disagree, because it hurts that just because we have different opinions you can run up to us and call us “fascists” and call our entire belief system a bunch of lies, and pick out and distort the things that we say for the sake of our failure…

    Report this

    By susan28, May 22, 2006 at 7:14 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    the one Biblical passage every “literalist” i’ve seen feels free to *interpret* is the part that commands them to sell everything they own and give it to the poor. they say they can do more good using their capital to spread the word, and their success as a testament to God’s blessing. which may be true, but it is a conclusion arrived at by their own logic, *not* a literal adherence to “the word”. but they are blinded by the plank in their eye..

    the notion of trusting interpretation to “experts” is not new: for many years Catholics weren’t even permitted to *read* the Bible, and the fundamentalists’ “Divine” condemnation of anyone who disagrees with their take on things is a page right out of the Catholic tradition of man-made dogma they claim to abhore. the fact is that any second-hand account, be it of a religious nature or a civil one, is suspect and should be subject to rational skepticism.

    however if the verses they most frequently quote are any indication, Jesus’ words and example mean very little to them as he is very seldom quoted. most quotes are of the gospel-writers themselves. even quotes from Jesus himself would be second-hand, but the opinions of the writers *based* on those “quotes” is *third hand* testimony unless you subscribe to the Catholic notion of Infallibility of God’s earthly “messengers”. ever played “whisper down the lane”? it’s a dangerous game..

    i keep a pic of Jesus above my bed because i was inspired by (what was told to be at least) his example. in all things i ask myself, “what would Jesus do?”, and i don’t think Jesus would do BattleCry. and i think his attitude toward power-hungry chuches was demonstrated by the one and only time he ever (according to legend) lost his temper: when he saw the church engaging in earthly commerce and government, he *trashed the temple*, and *that* is what got him cruciified.. he didn’t die *for* our sins, he died as a *result* of them, and we’d do well to take note.

    theocracy is anarchy in disguise. read my treatment on that and the intentions of our founders at: http://www.5gigawattlizard.net/?p=263

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    By Pepper, May 21, 2006 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment
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    Nicole,

    I didn’t state as a fact that you didn’t read the whole Bible…it was me expressing incredulity over your statement about God not killing anyone and pointing out that someone who says they read the Bible should know the stories I mentioned. However, you just ignored everything I said and still hold up the lie you believe in your head.  The examples I brought up disproved your previous statement that God never killed anyone, but you just reiterated your falsehood.  Sodom and Gomorrah wasn’t burned to the ground by its inhabitants and Lot’s wife wasn’t turned into a pillar of salt by a human being, but by God. Noah didn’t cause the world to flood…God did.  Some more examples (altho I don’t know why you would need more when everyone knows the story of Noah): Genesis 38:7 “And Er, Judah’s firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him.”  Exodus 12:29 describes the slaying of all the firstborn Egyptian children.  And when He isn’t smiting left and right by his own hand he sits back and instructs men to kill and destroy in His name (ie.s Joshua and the destruction of Jericho, the slaughter of the Philistines, etc).  There are many many more examples and my point was and is that if you had indeed read the Bible in its entirety, you could not possibly say that God doesn’t kill.

    PS - most of the battles in the Old testament including the two I mentioned above were perpetrated by God’s instruction against people with different beliefs than the Israelites.  And these actions are condoned by those telling the stories in the New Testament.  So don’t try and tell me that your God loves me as an unbeliever or that your demigod, Ron Luce, or any of the other crazies running the Evangelical movement today wouldn’t like to see me either converted or dead (preferably by a hurricane or tsunami…that would make them feel super duper righteous).

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    By Hilding Lindquist, May 21, 2006 at 3:12 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I see we are still at it.

    But then feeling good has always been a big factor in denying addiction, and addicts have a way of justifying their particular “reality altering whatever” that boggles the minds of the rest of us.

    Nicole writes in Comment #9980 by Nicole on 5/21 at 4:39 am:
    “And God didn’t kill people. Did you notice that he didn’t actually come down from heaven to kill anyone?”

    Duh! I can still remember the comic book style lesson books from my childhood in a Fundamentalist Christian church’s Sunday school depicting God ordering Joshua to slay everyone in Jericho including women and children, and in other times and places God “him"self sending down fire to kill off some evil party, as in the following snippet from the King James Version of the Bible by way of http://www.blueletterbible.org:

    (This taken from the Second Book of Kings in the Old Testament.)

    2nd Kings 1:9 Then the king sent unto him a captain of fifty with his fifty. And he went up to him: and, behold, he sat on the top of an hill. And he spake unto him, Thou man of God, the king hath said, Come down.
    2nd Kings 1:10 And Elijah answered and said to the captain of fifty, If I [be] a man of God, then let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And there came down fire from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.
    2nd Kings 1:11Again also he sent unto him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he answered and said unto him, O man of God, thus hath the king said, Come down quickly.
    2nd Kings 1:12And Elijah answered and said unto them, If I [be] a man of God, let fire come down from heaven, and consume thee and thy fifty. And the fire of God came down from heaven, and consumed him and his fifty.

    Make no mistake about it. The God of the Bible is an evil god. (Check out Comment #9974 by Myqel on 5/20 at 8:46 pm)

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    By Heather, May 21, 2006 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    What confuses me the most about “Battle Cry” is their use of militaristic images and messages.  I’m not a christian, but have studied about religion my whole life.  What I know about the life of Jesus was his incredible tolerance of people who were on the fringe of society.  He didn’t promote violence!!  So why are evangelicals so intolerant and righteous when they believe God made us all. And why do evangelicals focus on the book of Revelation so much??  You pick and choose the things out of the Bible that suit your needs.  You aren’t being stewards of the earth.  You actually want to hasten the end of the world as we know it, promote violence and attempt to change people.  As someone who will NEVER be Christion it makes me feel as though your future plans include me converting or else I will be persecuted by you.
    Also- What about this?  Freedom of Religion also includes freedom from religion!!! Why don’t evangelicals fiercely protect seperation of church and state?  You wouldn’t want your christian kids to have to pray from the Koran in public school anymore than a muslim kid wants to pray from the Bible.  This is just commom sense!
    Why are evangelicals more concerned about unborn life than any other life?  I wonder how many Iraqi pregnant women have been killed in this immoral war?  And I wonder how many unborn children die in Africa as their mothers starve or die of AIDS?  Your sense of morality escapes me.  Evangelicals believe their time is better spent protesting desperate American women outside abortion clinics than protesting a completely immoral, unjust war, or promoting safe sex in Africa to help prevent the spread of AIDS.
    Promoting violence to youth is disgusting- as if there isn’t enough of that everywhere!

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    By rinn12, May 21, 2006 at 11:38 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    seriously, i can’t believe this article. how could someone take something like this, which is inspiring Christian youth and others to put a stop to this nation’s intense immorality, and turn it into an evil act equivalent to Hitler??! this nation can take a turn for the better; people like this author will ruin it for us.

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    By Nicole, May 21, 2006 at 4:39 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Pepper,
    You said,“How can a good Christian like yourself not even read the whole Bible?  To state that God Himself never punished people and even whole cities for their sins is ludicrous.  The Old Testament is littered with scenes depicting God’s wrath and he even once supposedly destroyed the whole world save one big boat to wipe out the sins of Man.  And what about Sodom and Gomorrah (which incidentally wasn’t destroyed because of homosexuality, but for the sins of idolatry, temple prostitution and for being inhospitable to strangers)?  What about Abraham being asked to kill his son to prove his love and loyalty to God?  Maybe you think that God is above his own laws just like our dear president thinks he is above the laws of this country?  Or maybe you just haven’t really read your Bible…”

    I didn’t say that I didn’t read the whole bible..i just said that i go back on certain verses to keep them fresh in my mind.
    And God didn’t kill people. Did you notice that he didn’t actually come down from heaven to kill anyone? It was always another human killing someone. Everyone has a choice in their actions…so if they killed someone it was their idea not Gods.Just like they have a choice in being a christian or not. God doesn’t want everyone to be forced into it so it is your decision.
    You also started talking about your president…but for 1) I don’t live in the United States and 2)I don’t agree with a lot of his decisions about war etc.
    Lastly, the one thing you said that offends me is that I don’t read the Bible.. because I do and I am proud that I have read it.I wouldn’t be quoting passages on this comment page if I haven’t even read them.

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    By Myqel, May 20, 2006 at 8:46 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    God, the Perfect Being, did all of following in what is supposedly His book.

    He created evil (Lam. 3:38, Jer. 26:3, 36:3, Ezek. 20.:25-26, Judges 9:3, 1 Sam. 16:23, 18:10);
    He deceived (Jer. 4:10, 15:18, 20:7, 2 Chron. 18:22, Ezek. 14:9, 2 Thess. 2:9-12);
    He told people to lie(Ex. 3:18, 1 Sam. 16:2);
    He lied (Gen 2:17, 2 Sam. 7:13);
    He rewarded liars (Ex. 1:15-20);
    He ordered men to become drunken (Jer. 25:27);
    He rewarded the fool and the transgressor (Prov.26:10);
    He delivered a man, Job, into Satan’s hands (Job 2:6);
    He mingled a perverse spirit (Isa. 19:14);
    He spread dung on people’s faces (Mal. 2:3));
    He ordered stealing (Ezek. 39:10, Ex. 3:22);
    He made false prophecies (Jonah 3:4. Gen. 5:10);
    He Changed his mind (Jonah 3:10);
    He caused adultery (2 Sam. 12:11-12);
    He ordered the taking of a harlot (Hosea 1:2, 3:1-2);
    He killed (Num. 16:35, 21:6, Deut. 32:39, 1 Sam. 2:26, Psalm 135:10);
    He ordered killing (Lev. 26:7-8, Num. 25:4-5);
    He had a temper (Deut. 13:17, Judges 3:8);
    He was often jealous (Deut. 5:9, 6:15);
    He wasn’t omnipresent (Gen4:16, 11:5, 1 Kings 19:11-12);
    He wasn’t omniscient (Deut. 8:2, 13:3, 2 Chron. 32:31);
    He often repented (Ex. 32:14, 1 Sam. 15:35);
    He practiced injustice (Ex. 4:22-23, Joshua 22:20, Rom. 5:12);
    He played favorites (Deut. 7:6, 14:2, 1 Sam. 12:22);
    He sanctioned slavery (Ex. 21:20-21, Deut. 15:17);
    He degraded deformed people (Lev. 21:16-23);
    He punished a bastard for being illegitimate (Deut. 23:2);
    He punished many for the acts of one (Gen. 3:16, 20:18);
    He punished children for the sins of their fathers (Ex. 12:29, 20:5, Deut. 5:9);
    He prevented people from hearing his word (Isa. 6:10, John 12:39-40);
    He supported human sacrifice (Ex. 22:29-30, Ezek. 20:26);
    He ordered cannibalism (Lev. 26: 29, Jer. 19:9);
    He demanded virgins as a part of war plunder(Num. 31:31-36);
    He ordered gambling (Joshua 14. 2, Num. 26:52, 55-56);
    He ordered horses to be hamstrung (Joshua 11:6);
    He sanctioned violation of the enemies women (Deut. 21:10-14);
    He excused the beating of slaves to death (Ex. 21:20-21);
    He required a woman to marry her rapist (Deut. 22:28:29);
    He taught war (Psalm 144:1);
    He ordered the burning of human feces to cook food (Ezek. 21:3-5);
    He intentionally issued bad laws (Ezek. 20:25);
    He excused the sins of prostitutes and adulterers (Hosea 4:14);
    He excused a murderer and promised his protection (Gen. 4:8-15);
    He killed a man who refused to impregnate his widowed sister-in-law (Gen. 38:9-10);
    and He is indecisive (Gen. 18:17).

    Now, can you imagine anyone saying, “Yes, that’s my book, that represents me; that’s the way I am.” Especially a supposedly perfect being.

    What villain, what criminal, in all history had a record to match?

    You can a lot more information on the error, contradictions and fallacies here:
    http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/

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    By Myqel, May 20, 2006 at 8:34 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Ed Raby on 5/13 at 5:59 pm wrote:
    “You yell at Bush for killing Iragis yet you don’t seem to have a problem with OBL and Saddam killing thousands of Americans in the world tarde center.”

    Please son, get your facts straight. Even George “W” Bush has admitted that niether Iraq Nor Saddam had anything to do with the events that occured on September 11, 2001.

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    By *I'm an American please dont' kill me*, May 20, 2006 at 7:07 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I’m an American, I’m bisexual, I am somewhat left wing but very much against authortarianism and the whole idea of lockin up killing basically innocent people for political reasons because they don’t fit into your world view or behave

    This stuff is very scary, and I hope these people, who appear to be a new sort of fascism or taleban in our country arent going to come put us all in detention camps or torture us or kill us all for being gay or liberals or left wingers or whatever.

    I believe in democracy and liberty and I think the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are really great. I hope these people don’t destroy this cool country we have.

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    By Pepper, May 20, 2006 at 3:08 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Comment by Nicole:

    “Ga,
    “I look at the Bible as an instrution manual as well. When I am in doubt I can find my way by reading certain verses.”
    When I said this i meant certain verses as in there are different verses for different things. As an example: If i want to hear something about alcohol then I can go to a certain verse to learn what Jesus had to say about it.
    You said that there are some verses that are really bad and that is true like when people were burned to death or something like that. But it’s not like God decided to kill them for their sins because killing is a sin. God is pure and it is not possible for him to sin. He made people so they could have the ability to decide for themselves what they want to do. He knows that some things are wrong, (like killing) but he doesn’t want to force anyone to follow his word.”

    How can a good Christian like yourself not even read the whole Bible?  To state that God Himself never punished people and even whole cities for their sins is ludicrous.  The Old Testament is littered with scenes depicting God’s wrath and he even once supposedly destroyed the whole world save one big boat to wipe out the sins of Man.  And what about Sodom and Gomorrah (which incidentally wasn’t destroyed because of homosexuality, but for the sins of idolatry, temple prostitution and for being inhospitable to strangers)?  What about Abraham being asked to kill his son to prove his love and loyalty to God?  Maybe you think that God is above his own laws just like our dear president thinks he is above the laws of this country?  Or maybe you just haven’t really read your Bible…but then again you probably read one of the abominably translated versions such as the NIV or New King James version (just a couple of examples…)which leave out entire passages and then misinterprets the rest, but it does have nifty little footnotes so you, the reader, don’t have to think for yourself, so maybe telling you to read your Bible isn’t a good thing.  I should tell you to learn Greek and Hebrew and read the original versions instead.

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    By Hope Perches on the Soul, May 20, 2006 at 12:35 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Taylor’s article is clearly written as subjective rhetoric and there is much being left out of the story. Democracy in this country is founded on the belief that we all have free speech and all are welcome to peaceably persuade others that our perspectives are right. The author is attempting to marginalize Christians who feel the call to be activists.

    Christianity is not about doing things just because you are told. If this were the case then the religion would have died out a long time ago as people critically questioned the nature of absolute truth. Is there good and evil? Since Nazism is part of this article, were Nazi concetration camps truly wrong or just your opinion of wrong? Think about it. Chrisitianity is about having a real, personal relationship with perfect love and truth and what happened in Naiz Germany was against Jews, Christians, Scholars, Gays, and any other group they hated.

    A few points:
    1. Blitzkrieg is an advertising term for flooding the airwaves with a message for a time. It’s rather naive to equate a whole agenda to Nazi Germany based on one word and it shows that the author is really trying to reach to make the argument.

    2. The author should do some homework on the bible. No one can claim the Bible states anything definitely without doing a full study of all instances of particular words. “Here a little, there a little,” which is biblical. Some things in the old testament were simply physical manifestations of future spiritual fulfillment in Christ. Getting too caught up in the temporal world is what leads to abuse on all sides of the religious debate. There are many so-called Christians who have committed atrocities in His name and there have been many non-Christians do the same to oppose His name. Additionally, written history in the old testament does not prove that God approved of it. For example, the early Canaanites were sacrificing babies to varous gods by making them “pass through fire” or burning them alive. This torture was despicable to God.

    3. Christ was a revolutionary. Not as a warrior in the traditional sense but as one that changes the most difficult thing to change: a person’s heart. Imagine if he had never been born? He promoted equality (neither jew nor greek, neither male nor female) and he broke the chains of captives. Imagine no one in the world believed in “loving your neighbor as yourself” and “turning the other cheek”. What would we be as a nation if we didn’t care for others?

    The author is barking up the wrong tree. The spirit of Nazism is alive and well but it will manifest itself as marking Jews and Christians by little strips of colored cloth to segregate them from the rest of the world. Read the newspapers; it’s already happening. Even if this is halted for awhile due to public outcry it will resurface. Women ARE being stoned in our world but not by Christians.

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    By Guitarsandmore, May 20, 2006 at 7:20 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Blitzkrieg is a term that was used to describe the Nazi army during World War II and referred to a “style” of invasion.  The German army had developed quick moving tanks and armored personnel carriers that could move troops quickly from point to point and rapidly surprise and subdue their opponents

    Today the term is commonly used to describe a quick moving campaign of any sort and is not necessarily associated with a political party.

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    By Nicole, May 20, 2006 at 6:26 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Ga,
    “I look at the Bible as an instrution manual as well. When I am in doubt I can find my way by reading certain verses.”
    When I said this i meant certain verses as in there are different verses for different things. As an example: If i want to hear something about alcohol then I can go to a certain verse to learn what Jesus had to say about it.
    You said that there are some verses that are really bad and that is true like when people were burned to death or something like that. But it’s not like God decided to kill them for their sins because killing is a sin. God is pure and it is not possible for him to sin. He made people so they could have the ability to decide for themselves what they want to do. He knows that some things are wrong, (like killing) but he doesn’t want to force anyone to follow his word.

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    By Jack, May 19, 2006 at 9:44 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Kris:

    “Sunsara if you want to know why the old testament laws don’t apply to us, you can read Acts 15. It’s all about the Fathers of the faith deciding that the laws set in place for the Isrealites should not apply to the Gentiles, who were now converting to Christianity.”

    I’ve studied the Scofield Bible, and understand your heretical doctrine.  The message of Christ for the Jews; the Epistles of Paul for the Baptists…

    The Children of Israel are now practicing genocide vs. the palestinians.

    And now you want war with Iran….

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    By Kris- 19 years old (UT), May 19, 2006 at 5:35 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    There are a few things I’d like to say. Sunsara if you want to know why the old testament laws don’t apply to us, you can read Acts 15. It’s all about the Fathers of the faith deciding that the laws set in place for the Isrealites should not apply to the Gentiles, who were now converting to Christianity. You see, the laws in Leviticus were for the tribes of Israel     (Lev 1:2). If you are going to quote the Bible, you should probably be familiar with the whole thing first.

    I would like to post this message from Ron Luce to those protesting on May 12th. I would also like to say that this is the only post from Ron Luce. The rest of the site is primarily student led.

    Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:21 am   Post subject: Message from Ron Luce on Protestors  

    ————————————————————————————————————————

    I wanted to make you all aware that there are groups of people who may try to organize a protest at your rally at City Hall.

    If this happens, it is very important that you treat the protestors with total gentleness and kindness. Look on them with love, and be praying for them and have compassion for them. Do not be angry with them or speak harshly toward them or about them.

    Protestors may say things to try to provoke you to anger but it is very important that you do not give them that reaction. Let your gentleness be evident to all, and remember that you are not at war with them or their organizations, but with the lies they and many in this generation believe.

    We look forward to hearing the stories of how God changed peoples lives as a result of the movement you are starting!

    Consumed by the Call,
    Ron Luce

    Yeah, sounds really scary.

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    By Nicole & Suzanne, May 19, 2006 at 5:20 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Farakon,
    A Question to ask yourself….

    *would you read a suspense novel and not read the last chapter? Why then would you quote the Old Testament without reading the New Testament?

    The bible does have some gruesome things like killing,and wars. But you haven’t read the whole thing. You say that people were murdered for their sins and God was telling them to? If that is what you mean then you are completely wrong. God cannot sin so that is not possible. Since murder is a sin God couldn’t murder someone because is pure and holy. God wants everyone on this earth to have a choice in what they do. Even though it makes him sad that people kill, he doesn’t want to MAKE them follow his word. People kill each other because that is their decision.

    The last comment I had was about the gun-carrying people at Battlecry. I can tell you did not go to the event because if you were there then maybe you would think of them as the Navy Seal who spoke up and was surrounded by his unit. Flanked. Protected. Those were not weapons to be used to destroy humans. Unfortunatly, American and Canadian soldiers are using them in a very ‘unholy’ war at this time. Battlecry’s idea of warfare was - taking a generation back from Satan. In Ephesians 6:13(“Therefore put on the full armour of God,so that when the day of evil comes you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand”) our only offensive weapon against the spiritual forces of this world is our sword of truth (the word of God). The rest are defensive. And none of these weapons are to attack our fellow brothers and sisters. In fact we are going in after them.We are going in to save them.

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    By Ga, May 19, 2006 at 12:06 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    “I look at the Bible as an instrution manual as well. When I am in doubt I can find my way by reading certain verses.”

    Does that mean that you find certain verses…? Or that there are certain verses…?

    Think carefully…. I am trying to bring up a specific point that Christians never address: that there are some verses that are REALLY GOOD and there are some verses that are REALLY BAD.

    You use only parts of the Bible, knowing that if you used all the Bible we’d still be in the Middle Ages torturing and burning people alive.

    Christians wonder, “Why are they so afraid? You have us so wrong!” The worst you’ll do is “feed the homeless” or “protest the media?” Um, no….

    Here are some examples (remember, almost ALL you Christians here have said that you believe in submission to the Bible and to Jesus):

    “Who ever heard of such a bloody, bloody, brutal type of religion? But that’s what it is. It is not a religion of peace. Islam means submission. Submission to the Quran, to Muhammad, to the quote, ‘will of Allah, as revealed by Muhammad.’”
    —Pat Robertson

    “You know, I don’t know about this doctrine of assassination, but if [Hugo Chavez] thinks we’re trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it. It’s a whole lot cheaper than starting a war.”
    —Pat Robertson

    “Well, I would have to say as a Christian that I believe any belief system, any world view, whether it’s Zen Buddhism or Hinduism or dialectical materialism for that matter, Marxism, that keeps persons captive and keeps them from coming to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, yes, is a demonstration of satanic power.”
    —Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary

    “Anti-abortion organizations and a group called Pharmacists for Life are urging pharmacists to refuse to distribute emergency contraceptives.”
    —Associated Press

    “In Madison, Wis., a pharmacist faces possible disciplinary action by the state pharmacy board for refusing to transfer a woman’s prescription for birth-control pills to another druggist or to give the slip back to her. He would not refill it because of his religious views.”
    —USA Today

    “Dr. Joseph S. McIlhaney, Jr., president of the conservative Medical Institute for Sexual Health, attempted to defend federally funded abstinence-only sexual education programs against a report, recently issued by Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA), which stated that many of these programs teach false information.”
    —Media Matters for America

    “Proponents of abstinence-only sexual education curricula for public schools took to the airwaves to respond to charges contained in a report issued by Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) that found that ‘over 80%’ of the curricula of federally funded abstinence-only education programs ‘contain false, misleading or distorted information about reproductive health.’
    —Media Matters for America


    I could go on all day exposing you “harmless” Christians. Oh, sure, you teenagers are probably really nice people. But you leaders are not! Their policies harm people.

    Besides…. The absoluteness of your hypocrisy shows when you support the words “Thou shall not kill” in courtrooms that sentence people to death. You say “Abortion is murder” yet you support a war in Iraq that has killed several tens of thousands of civilians. You say you follow Christ yet you never, never act like him.

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    By Peter Reynolds, May 19, 2006 at 11:48 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Well, Mr.Raby, you’re a pathetic excuse for a human being.  I hope you have a great time in Heaven while people you say you love are writhing in Hell for eternity.  It’s kinda like going to a party, having a great time, while in the next room your girlfriend is being raped repeatedly.  You can hear her screams of agony but you just don’t care because you’re having such a wonderful time at the party.

    People like you are driven by the need for conformity and personal reward.  Very courageous and noble.  Would you do “good deeds” even if your god didn’t give you a cookie and put a gold star next to your name?

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    By Jimbo033, May 19, 2006 at 10:40 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Comment #9809 by Farakon on 5/18 at 12:07 pm

    Nicole,

    Why are we afraid of you?

    Because your “instruction manual” advocates killing non-believers:

    “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.”—Deuteronomy 13:6-10

    And because you attend rallies with thousands of people holding their fists in the air while guys with machine guns stand on stage.

    Get it?

    I just want to make one point, and I don’t mean to be rude or anything but if you are going to write about something, please get it correct.  I never liked it when people didn’t research what they wrote about.  I am talking about the “machine guns” the Navy SEALS officers were carrying.  They weren’t machine guns because SEALS do not use them.  SEALS use the M4.  It is a newer version of the famous M16.  But this baby has state of the art aiming.  Thanks for your time, and I hope you guys remember this next time you talk about the SEALS.

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    By Jimbo033, May 19, 2006 at 10:28 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I was reading the posts and I came across something which made me think twice. At this post:
    Comment #9719 by Ga on 5/17 at 10:28 am

    Ga remarked about love.  It just so happens my Youth Group is discussing love, dating, and friendships.  I just want everyone to know there are 5 different words for love in the Greek Language.  These 5 words are as follows: Agape, Eros, Philia (where Philadelphia gets its name btw), Storge, and Xenia.  Agape means the love of God for us.  Eros is physical love, such as the act.  Phila, means brotherly love, Storga is the love of a parent and child, and Xenia, this is the love between friends.  If you don’t believe me, check out this website:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

    Its an unbiased website which defines words, so don’t worry about me joshing you guys.  Check other websites if you wish, I have always thought the best way to learn was not by what was said to you, but by reading and finding information for yourself.  Most educational, and most fullfilling way to learn in my opinion. 

    Apponequet Lakers RULE!!!!!!!!

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    By Secret Chief, May 19, 2006 at 7:10 am Link to this comment
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    This article really chilled my mind. This rally has nothing to do with religion per se. It is simply the tactic that there “organizers” have chosen to train kids to obey without thought or doubt.

    I don’t want to put oil on the Nazi fire, but from what I have learned about the Nazis, the sole purpose of the training of the Hitler Youth was to have kids who could carry out any order in an instant, without questioning the validity of the order.

    Now, I do not know Mr. Luce so I do not know what orders he intends to give to his “army”. But one thing is for sure, it can be anything and they will do it if he has “trained” them right.

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    By Laura, May 18, 2006 at 9:17 pm Link to this comment
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    “Walk through the doors with a blank slate and no predetermined judgements upon us, because we do not judge you.”

    Liars.

    Nobody believes that—your purpose is to convert people, or kill them.

    Christians like you are murderers and cowards who send other people’s children to die in wars of lifestyle.

    It really does make me wish there was a God in the sky and a hell to send you to.

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    By Derek G, May 18, 2006 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I was at the BattleCry event. I went because I wanted to. I begged my mom and she finally accepted. I drove 10 hours to get there. I’ve gone to many of these events and each time I am amazed by the strength of emotion in the teens. This emotion is already inside them. They bring this to the event. Some people like to believe that the event makes them feel this way, wrong. We already feel that way. It is a place where we can freely express it without the harassment of others. That is a major theme of these events, to stand up for what is right and true. We shouldn’t go to these events because we are afraid to stand up anywhere else. Ron trys to explain that we can show our love for God anywhere, anytime, and anyway. He is trying to help us help ourselves.

    I was one of the people who stood and proclaimed “I want the cross”. I said that not because my friend did, not because Ron asked, but because I fully accepted Jesus. I am living a new life devoted entirly for Him. I did it because i wanted to; because He wanted me to.

    One last thing God loves everyone even thoughs who are confused. Thoughs who are will one day realize their mistakes, just as I did. Until then God bless everyone.

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    By Patrick Conway, May 18, 2006 at 6:18 pm Link to this comment
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    Christians,

    I mean you no harm except when you come to my door constantly but even then I am restrained.

    You cannot hold your own here.  You’re too brainwashed. 

    In two earlier posts to Ron Luce I provided links to three different sites I think you all may find interesting also.  Especially when you see how much he pays himself just from that one organization. 

    This man is fleecing you sheep and you are loving every minute of it in the name of JEEA-SUS and GAWWWD Almighty.  Why are you rushing in to the wolf’s den to defend a man you have, obviously, never researched?

    When sheep walk defiantly into the den of wolves they should not expect to walk out with all body parts intact.

    Here’s my suggestion; Go to the sites I provided, read them, then, ask Ron to make an appearance here and answer for himself.  So far he has ignored my invitation.  Perhaps that’s because I’m no Christian.

    You bunch should stop being his cannon fodder.

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    By Captain America, May 18, 2006 at 4:55 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Comment #9390 by Casey on 5/14 at 2:22 pm

    I was at this weekend’s Battlecry, and all I have to say is that this article is misleading.

    Ron Luce made many more points, and he forced no one to listen to him. He forced no one to do as he said. He merely just gave us the opportunity to let God into our hearts.

    This article also missed many important facts about the world. And I am very saddened that the author of this article didn’t not write more in depth about what happened this past weekend.

    As a journalist myself, I can honestly say that this article was poorly written


    GOD DAMMIT!!! Write a better one then, you religious wonk. Quit whining and sniveling and believing what is easy, and do some constructive writing so that we can actually see your Light of Christ. I thought I saw it once, in the red light district of Amsterdam. Turned out it was just a combination of some herb God created, and the glint off of a Japanese hooker’s nipple ring.

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    By Captain America, May 18, 2006 at 4:32 pm Link to this comment
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    Has anyone else noticed the lack of grammatical skill shown by a large percentage of the Christian side of this debate?? It seems that once they accept Jeebus and God and all the other malarkey, they decide to quit learning important things, like grammar, and the ability to eloquently express one’s ideas (see George W. Bush).

      All of that aside, keep it up everyone, this is some highly entertaining and comedic writing!!

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    By Nicole, May 18, 2006 at 2:26 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    ” i do not support organized religions in any sense. i feel that you god-fearing folks are lazy and ignorant. pick up a book for goodness sake and read it.“says elle-citizen of our precious Earth.She also has decided to name call: “ble-e-eting she-e-ep,... self-righteous, ...ignorant”
    I just want to say that no one from Battle cry has resorted to name calling or judging. We just want our voices to be heard. We have been respectful of everyones opinions, even if we believe something different.And we have picked up a book.It’s called the Bible.

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    By Farakon, May 18, 2006 at 12:07 pm Link to this comment
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    Nicole,

    Why are we afraid of you?

    Because your “instruction manual” advocates killing non-believers:

    “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.”—Deuteronomy 13:6-10

    And because you attend rallies with thousands of people holding their fists in the air while guys with machine guns stand on stage.

    Get it?

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    By Nicole, May 18, 2006 at 4:37 am Link to this comment
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    “For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places,” (Eph. 6:12).

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    By Nicole, May 18, 2006 at 4:33 am Link to this comment
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    Farakon,
    You say Ron used the phrase “instruction manual” to describe the Bible. And you say it like it is a bad thing? I don’t really understand that…I look at the Bible as an instrution manual as well. When I am in doubt I can find my way by reading certain verses. 
    Now you said, “Now do you understand why we “non-believers” are afraid of you.  We are afraid because we think that you are going to get yourselves worked up into righteous fervor and kill us.” THat answer is no, I don’t understand why you are afraid of us.You have this completely wrong. When we get worked up and excited over our love of God, then the worst we would probably do is feed the homeless or protest about the media corrupting todays teens.
    Lastly, you also said, “I’m never going to kill you.” well we believe you, so why can’t you believe us?

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    By Laura, May 18, 2006 at 3:18 am Link to this comment
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    “That is the same for us. We are simply calling out to our own kind to let their voices be heard. It’s a democracy. People express themselves, and the majority rules.

    When you say that the Christians are hateful, , you are saying that I am hateful as well. I am not.”

    No, Christians like you are so filled with destructive rage and propaganda that you can’t separate lies from truth. in other words, you’re a bunch of sociopaths. That is why nobody trusts you, and hates to see you coming.

    So no, dear. It’s not the same at all.

    Name ONE gay person or group devising state and federal laws forbidding heterosexual christian fascists like you from marrying each other. Your fascist agenda is putting numerous anti-gay marriage ballots on state rolls to turn out the GOP vote, and you people keep trying to pass these absurd “Marriage Protection” laws. If anything, marriage should be protected from Christian perverts who can’t keep their vows for more than 3 years.

    Name ONE gay person or group dedicated to forbidding fundamentalist goosesteppers like you from adopting kids. Your groups are trying this latest tactic, once again to get people off of their lazy conservative behinds, out to the voting booths.

    Name ONE gay person or group who made forced christian heterosexuality a governmental security risk. Job discrimination by the Federal government used to be the law of the land, thanks to paranoid wingertrash Christians.

    Name ONE gay person or group who advocates listing Fundocrat Christianity as a mental illness. Yet, Christians like you have NEVER forgiven the AMA for declassifying homosexuality as a mental disorder.

    Name ONE gay person or group censoring christians in the armed forces from telling others they are christians. Yet you Christians think that “Don’t ask don’t tell” is a compromise with Satan Himself.

    So no, it’s not the same at all, not in the least. You don’t know the first thing about “democracy”, which of course is no surprise: “democracy” to people like yourself means special rights for christians, second class citizenship for everyone else.

    You NaXi youth won’t be happy until you turn this country into the Handmaid’s Tale.

    This, you call “spreading god’s love”.

    Well, you know where you can put it.

    And for Christian queer youth trapped in fascist organizations like “Battle Cry”, there is help, there IS a way out. You are NOT alone.

    http://heartstrong.org/

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    By Ga, May 17, 2006 at 7:57 pm Link to this comment
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    “I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won’t have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!”
    —Rev. Jerry Falwell

    “Secular schools can never be tolerated because such a school has no religious instruction and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith…. We need believing people.”
    —Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933

    I love those quotes! They are from H.E.R.B. (Had Enough Religious Bullshit)
    http://edkrebs.com/herb/

    I think that what is interesting about this whole discussion is that, they may be right. Christ may have been the son of God, who died for our sins and was resurrected. There is, of course, no evidence for this what-so-ever, but who knows? Maybe they are right.

    But, lacking evidence, the only logical thing to do is to dissent.

    And who knows, too, the moon has not been entirely investigated, perhaps there really is some cheese up there after all!

    But, again, lacking evidence, the only logical thing to do is to dissent.

    The problem I have with Christians is that they are purposefully ignorant. And this is not some cheap insult, but based on the evidence. You see, extremely religious people, and they have here state again and again: Bible = Absolute Truth; Jesus = The Only Way.

    And this means that, once one has learned this (or accepted this, or simply believes this) one can then—only—stop all further pursuits of truth. Because their’s is the one and only truth! Which they repeat, over and over…

    So once you come to their conclusion, you need not learn anything else. What else is there to learn, right?

    Then, as others, not satisfied with simply believing in what they have been told to believe*, continually investigate, research, read, contemplate, experiment, continue to ask questions, Christians get all frustrated because other people come up with contradictory things like Trial by Ordeal** doesn’t really work, that the Earth revolves around the Sun and that species*** are not immutable and do change.

    But, Christians, oh no! They don’t need science! They have the Bible! Philosophy? Who needs that when we got Scripture! We don’t need any more words!

    I could go on, but it is difficult debating with ignorant people who can only repeat the same things over and over (and not very fun!).

    But, as I said, they could be right. Or part right. Certainly, we all would agree that we want to live in a peaceful, crime free, non-violent world. Whether there is too much drugs or too much pornography (or not enough) is for further debate (not here though).

    Thing is, Christians want only their way and definitions of life to rules us. That is deplorable and not in keeping with the foundations of this country. For Democracy does not simply mean majority rule. It means also, and as importantly, protection of the minority from the majority. It start like this: These truths we hold self-evident…

    Yes we do want, nay, require, Christians to be able to assemble and worship and do all their churchy goodness things that they do. And so to we must, we must, require that Muslims and Hindus and Shintos and Buddhists and Janists and everyone else to assemble and worship and DISSENT. And only by SEPERATION OF CHRUCH AND STATE do we guarantee Freedom of Religion and Freedom From Religion.

    Notes:

    * Belief in the “belief in God”.

    ** Judicial practice by which the guilt or innocence of the accused is determined by subjecting them to a painful task.; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_ordeal

    *** Answer me this: How did Noah get the millions of species that existed during his time on his little Ark? All those ants and termites and bugs and molds and fungi and…

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    By FromTheShadows, May 17, 2006 at 4:03 pm Link to this comment
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    First of all I do respect your opinions and your thoughts about the Battle Cry events that have previously taken place.  I myself attended an event in Detroit Michigan, and thus I feel I need to respond to your comments.

    To begin, the references to Hitler and the Hitler youth are entirely unecessary, and if you feel threatened by a group of teens who are taking a stand against a morally corrupt society, then perhaps you are being defensive as a result of your own life.

    Ron Luce, was repeating the terms “army” and “battle” as metaphors that could be easily identified with.  We are in a time when things have gone so far out of control that this is a battle, but not in the way you are thinking of.  It is not a battle waged against people specifically, it is a battle against the principles that are being projected to teens through the media.  We as Christians do not seek out to destroy, or to hate, those who are gay or have engaged in premarital sex.  The Bible says “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”  I may not agree with the choices that people make, however they have free will given to them by God, and how they use that, is their choice.  I am not forcing anyone to believe in God, I am simply asking that people not try to force me to view porn or to drink, or to become atheist. 

    The reason that these events are so loud and active is because that is how we are striving to be.  When he (Ron Luce) mentioned that we can no longer be the watered down Christians of yesterday, he was saying that it is not enough to simply believe in God.  There are many people today who believe in God, yet you can not see that in the ways that our country is progressing, that is why we need to take our stand and be strong, and active. 

    When Luce is talking about the companies, and targeting them, you are misunderstanding this too.  He is suggesting that they be targeted, not in a violent way, but in the ways of prayer and some respectful pro-activity.  This is because of the policies of those companies.  MTV for instance is broadcasting videos and television shows that depict sexual activity as normal, show and discuss drugs in ways that make them seem average, and even devoting shows entirely to people who really need prayer more than publicity.  Another company, Victoria’s Secret, is being ‘targeted’ because of their larger than life posters of women wearing almost nothing that are being displayed in the mall windows, and also in commercials on TV.  Consider again, I am not forcing you to believe in God, so why should I have to see these images when I go to the mall or watch my favorite clean television programs?

    Also, the part where we all stood at our own will and proclaimed “I want the cross!” was not what you are protraying it to be.  The reason that we, myself included, stood up and said that was because we are sick of our old ways (yes I said old ways, we all realize that we are not perfect, and never will be, only Jesus was perfect), and we wish to change our lives and stop falling into the traps of Satan.  By proclaiming this we took our personal stand and devoted ourself to God in the eyes of all those who were there.  The cross symbolizes the death of Jesus, and the death to our flesh that is required to follow God.  The Bible says “you cannot serve two masters.”  If we follow our own selfish desires, we cannot truly please God, and that is what we want, to please God and to live for him.

    I am actually a bit surprised at you.  Whether you believe in God or not, I thought that it would be a common thread among all people that we would want what is best for future generations.  I’m not saying that I know what is best for this world, but it is our duty to seek out that knowledge, and only God can give it.  Do you want your kids growing up in a society where sex is encouraged, drugs are spread, and violence is unavoidable?  I should think not.  No matter what your beliefs are, or aren’t, surely we can agree that this world needs help and that we as a human race are the only ones to help it. 

    Can you imagine the results if all the people involved in the groups you mentioned (atheists, anti-war people ect.) at least took a stand against the disgusting images in the media and the inescapable corruption that is taking place?  This problem could be easily resolved. 

    Lastly, I am not advocating the war nor am I saying that George W. Bush is perfect.  However I do believe that he is in a place of authority and should be respected for that reason.  Once again, I think respect is something any person can identify with, Christian or not.  Everyone should have the decency to at least respect those who govern us.  If you do not like him, it is your right to peacefully demonstrate, or to vote against him in the next election, however attacking a person based upon only their mistakes, is unfair entirely. 

    I am sure that you would not want someone to attack you based on every wrong choice you have made in your life.  And speaking of making mistakes, you mentioned that in the Bible they talk about stoning people.  Just like now, the government is not perfect.  If you read on in the Bible there is a situation in which a mass had gathered to stone a woman, and Jesus saw this and said “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone” He even agreed that this was wrong, and so he took His stand against it and saved the woman. 

    I ask you to keep all of this in mind.  Next time you go to an event, and I do encourage you to go again, please enter with an open mind.  Walk through the doors with a blank slate and no predetermined judgements upon us, because we do not judge you.

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    By john m sandoval, May 17, 2006 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment
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    God! - it has been determined - is a spirit.
    Mankind needed a source for establishing a faith based on some form of   cosmic supreme power. Thereby establishing a connection, between life on earth and ?the unknown? in the hereafter.
    So; mankind invented God, in mankind’s image, with no proof at all, of God’s existence. Faith is believing in something without the slightest bit of proof, whatsoever. We do have proof, of the existence of a spirit world. ( There is a “spirit world”  that is as real, as life itself. ). God is an Anomaly of whatever one wants to call it. (I avoid mysterious Spiritualism)
    “Betelgeuse” ? is the brightest star in the constellation of Orion. Hebrews devised a fantasy of two spirits (exclusively, for them alone) they are “Golem & Guhulam.” see; Webster’s College Dictionary. Read about Seventh Heaven in the ?Constellation of Orion? a place of peace and tranquility, where God abodes, surrounded by his Angels.
    The ancients credit the “Maana” as the spirit to which they credit the accumulation of wealth & power. In the beginning, Abraham, was the wealthiest, the most powerful man on earth. Believers in God-Jehovah have theorized Abram as a man of God.
    All religious concepts blossomed from Mythology, Astrology, Astronomy, and numerology in the illustrious minds of saintly philosophers, from India and Persia and elsewhere. No nation, on earth, has a greater, more varied conglomeration of religious philosophies than India. Ranging from believing “nothing” to setting themselves afire, to prove their fanatical belief in a cosmic universal hereafter.
    Yes! Spirits exist, by whatever name you want to call them. (some are good and some are bad, and some are extremely bad) But I believe that I, as the Ion of my “own nature” am, the only one responsible for anything I do. (my own spirit) In doing good, I build up positive “Karma” - good surrounds me ? with my own self control, I fear no man, no God, no Devil (standing around, waiting for me to make a mistake, so he can set me on fire!  I believe in Nature & sunlight delight! I have no fear of an awesome, vindictive God (that does not abide by his own rules) and that gives me peace of mind. To be like me, one must be endowed, with a healthy open mind, a healthy body, and a healthy personal disposition, these things may be inherited, but they are absolutely not! For everybody. Your beliefs are dependent on your frame of mind, your individual, particular mindset, concerning what you believe, or refuse to believe. Once one has developed a specific mindset, it is extremely difficult to change. Whether one believes or not, or lives in perpetual doubt.
    Sometimes we live a lifetime believing and depending on a falsehood.
    Plain reasoning does not allow me to believe in the fantasized (forgive everybody for everything) Cosmic God. As we know God’ - no where in sight, doing nothing, about mass Genocide killings - because maybe he does not exist. My belief in Gods or Goddesses, or Yahweh-God-Jehovah is pure fantasy and wishful thinking. The stories about God-Jehovah and Jesus Christ  
    are truly the biggest stories ever devised by Mankind, for the accumulation of Wealth property & political power.

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    By Joe Blow, May 17, 2006 at 12:29 pm Link to this comment
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    This is not the Christ I know.
    This is not the Bible I know.
    These are not my fellow Christians.

    Lucifer is destroying the Lords Church as the lost Christians praise him to the highest.

    I weep for my fellow Chistians to see them fall into the ways of wrath. They elect men of lust and gluttony and grant them high office. In their pride they claim Gods wisdom, the wisdom of good and evil, and kill casually in Wars of choice.

    These are fallen Christians.

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    By Unnameable, May 17, 2006 at 11:22 am Link to this comment
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    Blitzkrieg is nazi, don’t embarrass yourself. It means lightning war.  It’s nazi, not a matter of opinion.

    Oh, and gay-hater- you’re a book burning homophobic homosexual. It’s not name-calling cause it’s what you are.

    Today i think the proud jesus freak should just skip lunch and use lord power to get through his day. After all what good is substance when you can eat lord chips and drink lord-ade?

    Metaphysical explanations of the world
    vs
    non-metaphysical explanations.

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    By Ga, May 17, 2006 at 10:28 am Link to this comment
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    True to form, a freaking “Jesus Freak” quote a vauge sayings from the Bible. The closest mention of anything related to “sexuality” from the quotes is:

    “In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.”

    Everything else is much too vague make any sense out of. Even the above is out of context. But get this:

    “.. God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.”

    Taking all this literally (which is, as anyone who studies biblical sources would know, actually quite impossible), God is just messing with your head, isn’t he?

    But anyway, say that “indecent acts with other men” is a “perversion.”

    Well, just what is an “indecent act”? Modern definitions of “indecent” aside. See how this is a matter of interpretation?

    No. No Christian will. For they are sick.

    But still, the question remains… Is this “perversion” a sin? Is it a transgression? Unrighteousness? Faithlessness? What?

    And so, with “indecent acts” obviously being defined as sex (by you), what if two men simply love each other? You Christians know what “love” is don’t you?

    What if two men just love each other, and live together, and share everything, and want to get married and adopt a child… BUT THEY ARE CELEBITE?

    Are they then—no kissing, or hand holding even—worthy of your hatred?

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    By Farakon, May 17, 2006 at 8:37 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Ok Nicole,

    Ron Luce claims to believe that the bible is the infallible word of the creator of the universe.  I believe he used the phrase “instruction manual” on the O’Rilley show.

    The bible tells us that it is sometime appropriate to burn people to death.

    “If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.”—Leviticus 20:14

    “And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.”—Leviticus 21:9

    “Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.”—Genesis 38:24

    “He that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath. ... And Joshua ... took Achan ... and his sons, and his daughters ... And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire.”—Joshua 7:15, 24-25

    Now do you understand why we “non-believers” are afraid of you.  We are afraid because we think that you are going to get yourselves worked up into righteous fervor and kill us.

    I’m never going to kill you because you believe things about the universe that are, by any objective measure, insane.  You, or someone just like you, if they really listen to what Ron has to say, very well may wind up taking me out.

    You had guys with machine guns on stage for crying out loud!

    And if you think that jesus came and got rid of all the bad stuff in the bible…

    Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

    …think again.

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    By Paul, May 17, 2006 at 8:27 am Link to this comment
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    The “think it through for yourself” concept is near dead in the U.S. among the masses. And all you see here from the sheep are quotes from a book of fairy tales, a smattering of notes by lunatics and manipulators that was TRANSLATED no less, which only makes quoting a book of nonsense even more irrational and inaccurate. But, I guess as long as they are making whomever told them what to do happy, they can look up, receive a pat on the head, and trot off to lay down and not think. Eat some nice grass, baaaaaaa.

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    By rick, May 17, 2006 at 7:49 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    911 truth, its a big movement. check it out. 
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8260059923762628848&q=loose+change

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    By Questioner, May 17, 2006 at 6:58 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    If you really want to know what Christian extremists have in store for us, go to http://www.theocracywatch.org/.

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    By Questioner, May 17, 2006 at 6:44 am Link to this comment
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    BattleCry followers are of the same mold as the KKK and the Hitler Youth. BattleCry is a step backwards — a giant step. In times of turmoil and uncertainty, groups like this pop up like weeds. Christian extremism is the exact counterpart of Muslim extremism. Evidently neither of them have learned anything since the Crusades — their thinking is still medieval. It is always easier to destroy than to build. It is always easier to be simpleminded and dogmatic than to deal with the complexities and subtleties of reality. Fundamentalist dogma is dangerous delusion. These people must be put under control or they will bring everything down around all of our heads. The “God” one reads about in the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, the Baghavad Gita — is a figment of human imagination. We need to outgrow religion and rely on honest dealings with each other.

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    By Questioner, May 17, 2006 at 6:40 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    BattleCry followers are of the same mold as the KKK and the Hitler Youth. BattleCry is a step backwards — a giant step. In times of turmoil and uncertainty, groups like this pop up like weeds. Christian extremism is the exact counterpart of Muslim extremism. Evidently neither of them have learned anything since the Crusades — their thinking is still medieval. It is always easier to destroy than to build. It is always easier to be simpleminded and dogmatic than to deal with the complexities and subtleties of reality. Fundamentalist dogma is dangerous delusion. These people must be put under control or they will bring everything down around all of our heads.

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    By elle-citizen of our precious Earth, May 17, 2006 at 6:10 am Link to this comment
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    what a bunch of uneducated she-e-e-ep, as in ble-e-e-t.

    the brainwashing is so utterly apparent and the self-righteousness is truly frightening.

    these folks need to go back to school and educate themselves on what religion has done over time to incur wars and strife among people.  has anyone ever done a body-count caused by religous wars?

    understand this folks:  religion was invented to control people.

    the various flavors of religion are proof of strife between so called christians who have separated from the main mumbo-jumbo to form their own brands of mumbo-jumbo.

    just reading this is disturbing. the brainwashed ignorance of these young people is so hard to understand or accept. where are the parents?

    i am not religious. i do not support organized religions in any sense. i feel that you god-fearing folks are lazy and ignorant. pick up a book for goodness sake and read it.  try “The End of Faith” by Sam Harris; or try “Night” by Elie Weisel who was 15 when his family (AND MILLIONS OF OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE) were murdered simply for their religous beliefs. He wrote:

    “Never shall I forget that night, the first night in that camp…
    Never shall I forget that smoke.
    Never shall I forget the small faces of the children whose bodies I saw transformed into smoke under a silent sky.
    Never shall I forget those flames that consumed my faith forever.
    Never shall I forget the nocturnal silence that deprived me for all eternity of the desire to live.
    Never shall I forget those moments that murdered my God and my soul and turned my dreams into ashes.
    Never shall I forget those things, even were I condemned to live as long as God Himself.
    Never.”

    & also from “Night”:

    “...if we forget then we are accomplices…”

    if our society does nothing to bring these zealots to their senses, then we are as good as condoning it.  watch your local governments actions, your local schools policies. this country was founded with state and church separated FOR A REASON.

    this forum is almost impossible because so many have such tunnel vision that they cannot really carry on a legitimate debate. i see no original ideas here, just the same ol’ mimicing, parroting that these ble-e-eting she-e-ep have been programmed to repeat over and over and over.

    heaven (smile) help us.

    Report this

    By Nicole, May 17, 2006 at 5:54 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Comment #9610 states: “these homicidal lunatics are going to kill us all…”
    Why do people take everything so literally? We are not actually going to kill you, but you do run the risk of not having an eternal life. That means when you do die, your spirit will die too. You will not have peace when you die because you chose not to follow God. People are not actually killing people because they are associated with Battlecry. Maybe some people that have been influenced by television, and all the violent scenes in commercials and shows have at least thought about killing or injuring someone.I think that makes a lot more sense.

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    By The Reverend Dr. Susan Block, May 17, 2006 at 5:03 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Brothers & Sisters, Lovers & Sinners… Come, Let Us Play…

    First, I would like to say to all you Battle-Crybaby Teen Maniacs:

    Satan Loves You and So Do I.

    And to everyone else:

    Do Not Despair of These Hitleresque Youth!  But Know Ye That This Is What Happens When You Cut Funding to Education.

    And to Each and Everyone:

    Happy Masturbation Month!  Gives Yourselves A Hand:

    http://www.drsusanblock.com/blog/article116.html

    and don’t take yourselves and your gods so seriously.

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    By Rosie, May 16, 2006 at 5:58 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    For those who think homosexuality is not a sin and it is not written in the bible:

      18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

      21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

      24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

      26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

      28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

    Romans 1:18-32 New Testament
    I have nothing else to say, except for no matter what anyone says, nothing will EVER turn me away from the god that i love more than any of these temporary substances and minds that we are attained to on this earth. I WILL LOVE YOU. I WILL PRAY

    JESUS FREAK ALL THE WAY!!!

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    By Nicole, May 16, 2006 at 3:49 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    People are really misinterpreting Battlecry. I attended the one in Detriot and it was amazing. The reason there were Navy Seals was because they wanted to get the message across that Christians are in a battle. But in a battle against Satan, not other people!
    Comment #9603 asks, “What makes you so sure that there is a God?” My answer is personal because I have felt the love of God when I needed him. Everytime I pray, he answers. Sometimes the response is not always what we want at the time, but in the end you will understand why it had to happen. Lastly, the reason I believe is not just because I can see God (but many people I know have heard him actually speak to them). Just because you can’t see him doesn’t mean he is not there.
    I just love these lyrics by Relient K. Take a moment to read it through and think about the words. Thanks.

    “My Way Or The Highway”

    Should I start this song off with a question?
    Or should I say what’s on my mind.
    (Add a cello here to add a sad impression).
    Cause I’m not looking forward to leaving my friends all behind.
    I didn’t vote (though I’m not proud), cause I’m Canadian, and I’m not allowed.
    Give it a go or throw in the towel.
    Stand all alone or swim through the crowd.
    No one around to help you decide.
    It’s time to make up your mind.
    It’s time to make up your mind.
    By the wayside we fell.
    He said, “It’s my way or the highway to hell.”
    It’s your decision, choose it well.
    He said, “It’s my way or the highway to hell.”
    Decisions we make; life’s an election.
    Precision we take, seeking direction.
    But there’s so many lies.
    Unsure where we can look.
    But we’ve got a guide- a really thick handbook.
    No one around to help you decide.
    It’s time to make up your mind.
    It’s time to make up your mind.
    Are you with me or against me?
    Noticed you’re sitting on the fence.
    We wondered why you’re not cut and dry.
    You got to choose our side and live, or their side and die.
    Which hand holds your soul?
    Do you want to guess one?
    If it scares you to death, may that be your lesson.
    It’s your decision, make it the best one.
    And should I end this song off with a question?

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    By Patrick Conway, May 16, 2006 at 3:10 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Oh, and Ron, while you’re at it;

    http://www.acquiretheevidence.com/

    http://www.acquiretheevidence.com/articles/salary-compare.html

    Ron, please do come out and play.

    It’s a wonderful day in the neighborhood.  Won’t you be our friend?

    Report this

    By Patrick Conway, May 16, 2006 at 2:59 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Ron,

    Here is an interesting site I’ve read.  Although, in fact because, it’s very Christian I think it might interest you.  You’re the ‘star’ on this site.

    http://www.atruechurch.info/atf.html

    Report this

    By Sunsara Taylor, May 16, 2006 at 11:41 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    To all those Christians and BattleCry participants who are writing in that you uphold the New Testament and not the Old Testament:

    1. Ron Luce repeatedly instructed people to obey the Bible, even when they don’t agree and even when they don’t understand, without any qualification. 

    2. Lakita Wright, Saturday morning’s main speaker, bemoaned the fact that judges today no longer study and root themselves in the Mosaic Laws (of the Old Testament).

    3. Franklin Graham quoted liberally from the Old Testament in justifying the war on Iraq today.  He actually insisted that there is no difference between the “ancient babylonians” of the Bible and the Iraqis today. 

    So, fine, you don’t have to uphold the Old Testament (tho, if you don’t, you had better come up with another way to argue for the divinity of Jesus, or you ought to just treat Jesus like any other non-divine human and evaluate and uphold any of his behaviors on that basis).  But, don’t pretend that your understandable squeamishness about the Old Testament means that BattleCry feels the way you do.

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    By terrified, May 16, 2006 at 10:53 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    wow, we are all going to die, aren’t we? these homicidal lunatics are going to kill us all… whether “blitzkrieg” is explicitly nazi or not, who cares? look at the message they are putting out—death to everyone but them.

    We ARE living in another Nazi Germany because these nutjobs are going to take over the country while the moronAmericanMajority sits by and does nothing or, god forbid, actually joins the nazi youth movement.

    i’m paralyzed with terror. Time to move to Europe. America is too far gone.

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    By Patrick Conway, May 16, 2006 at 9:30 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Ron Luce,

    We know you are, or have some sycophant, monitoring all of this.

    I’m afraid your Christian Amen corner are not up to the task here as people such as you have kept them herded too long.

    You come out here.  We would love to hear you.

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    By joe, May 16, 2006 at 8:38 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    What makes you so sure that there is a God, not to mention one that gives a shit about what you think or not think?

    It blows me away to see how full of shit you all are! The world doesn’t need Jesus or any other person/God to tell them what to do. If you don’t already know the correct answer then you are an idiot.

    Report this

    By Farakon, May 16, 2006 at 8:38 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    The thing that is really blowing my mind is how all the jesus freaks reply to any criticism of their mythology by merely parroting “But, jesus loves you!”

    What hogwash.  We quote specific versus from their “infallible” bible exhorting us to engage in all manner of barbarianism and all that they can say in response is “jesus loves you.”  What a bunch of saps.

    You are really left with the impression that many of them haven’t read the bible at all, at least not all the way through.

    If I thought that the creator of the universe took the freakin trouble to write a book (2 Timothy 3:16) I’d sure as hell go through the trouble of reading it.

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    By Hilding Lindquist, May 16, 2006 at 8:27 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Get over it, already. Christianity is an amalgam of myths that predate the time associated with Jesus. That’s a fact.

    Start by reading THE POWER OF MYTH by Joseph Campbell:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Myth

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    By Jimbo033, May 16, 2006 at 7:32 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Hello, I have been reading the several articles about the Phily Rally.  Perhaps I am mistaken, but I was on the “frontline” so to speak, holding up a sign with my friend Evan. (I was the one wearing that weird large orange shirt) I cannot help but notice that you left out a part during the rally.  Perhaps you were just too caught up in the excitement.  Well, anyways, a large man was talking to Ms. Taylor while the rally was in progress and I could not help but notice how she treated him.  Of course perhaps since the speakers were closer to those two, she may have had to use her voice louder.  Well, she said, and I can only give a rough detail on exact words, but it went somewhat like this.  “In the bible, it says for slaves to obey and bow down to their masters” said ms Taylor.  THe man wearing white then asked “Where in the Bible is this mentioned?”.  Ms. Taylor then started to read from scripture.  “The Lord commands servants to obey” and just then the man interrupted Ms. Taylor and added “it says servants, not slaves”.  Shortly after, Ms. Taylor left the side and went to the back of the crowd of demonstrators. 
    I just wanted to add this to the whole story so the people who did not attend the rally would have a more full perspective of what occured.  GO RED SOX!!!!!

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    By Ron Luce is an Anti-Semite, May 16, 2006 at 7:20 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Check out what Billy Graham was saying about Jews and pornography in 1972 to Richard Nixon compared to what Ron Luce is saying now.

    Billy Graham:

    http://www.counterpunch.org/vestgraham.html

    “But this conversation with Billy Graham is something else again. Here is the most admired and influential religious leader in America complaining to the president of the United States about the Jews and their “stranglehold” on the media, and blaming them for “all the pornography.”

    Even when Nixon replies that he agrees but “can’t say that” in public, Graham presses the point: Yes, right, but if you get elected to a second term, then we could do something about the problem.

    Graham adds that while many Jews are friendly to him, “they don’t know how I really feel about what they are doing to this country.”

    Ron Luce in 2006:

    http://battlecry.com/crisis.php

    A stealthy enemy has infiltrated our country and is preying upon the hearts and minds of 33 million American teens. Corporations, media conglomerates, and purveyors of popular culture have spent billions to seduce and enslave our youth. So far, the enemy is winning. But there is plenty we can do. We need to take action. We need to answer the Battle Cry.

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    By FrikkenKids, May 16, 2006 at 7:13 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I noticed several responses to posts by the user Vira so I checked out what she wrote and as I expected, it was a perfect example of a very outspoken and proud christian talking about something she obviously doesn’t know about.

    Others have pointed out what’s wrong about this segment:  “We defend the second half of the bible. Jesus is what CHRISTians defend. The New Testament is what we guide ourselves by. In the Old Testament, those laws were placed because they had to be in order for the people to know what God expected of them. Then God brought us Jesus. We no longer have to live by those rules because God said that Jesus died for our sins.
    And so instead of punishing the sinners, we offer them a way to be saved from eternal damnation.”

    According to the bible, Christ specifically said he did not come to abolish or overturn the law.  Every rule from God was supposed to be followed according to the very words of Christ.  Every letter of the law had to remain - I would have to assume right down to the point not wearing linen and wool at the same time (apparently God-all-mighty finds that offensive but says a raped girl who didn’t scream loud enough should be killed). As commenter rashoman pointed out, it wasn’t until later on that any of the rules were ignored.  I’ve always seen this as one of the most transparent ways self-proclaimed CHRISTians reveals themselves to be ignorant of the very book they say they live by.

    What concerns me more, though, is Vira’s comment “It’s a democracy. People express themselves, and the majority rules.”  A simple majority rule democracy, to me at least, is a very frightening idea.  If a majority simply dictates the law, unbelievable attrocities can easily be the result.  A supporter of true majority rule should have no problem with any muslim-dominated nation executing every christian who dares show his face.  Remember the recent international incident when Afganistan almost killed a christian convert just a couple months ago.  The majority rule said that man had to die, but I doubt any American christians - even Vira - would support that decision.  A christian-ruling majority in America could easily be just as bad.  Would Vira’s ideal majority rule make contraception illegal because of an interpretation of a fairy tale?  What about divorce?  Would other religions be allowed to exist?  What if we had a majority who believed that medicine was the work of the devil because it interfered with God’s will? 

    In a good democracy, the elected government represents ALL the people.  Representatives have a sworn duty to represent their supporters as well as those who voted against them or didn’t vote at all.  The constitution of the United States protects people from what could result from majority rule.  A democracy must - MUST - protect the rights of any minority of the population even if the majority don’t agree.  No majority has the right to impose rules based on a religion onto anybody who doesn’t believe or believes differently.  And nobody who truly believes god is love can believe any differntly.

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    By Ga, May 16, 2006 at 6:48 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Ed Raby said: “Are you actually saying that Saddam and Iraqi terroist had nothing to do with 911. Are you crazy!!”

    How does one answer that? This is an example of Christian ignorance: don’t read books, don’t investigate, don’t look at history, trust in your leaders.

    Yes, Mr. Raby, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE that indicates that Iraq had anything to do with 911. There is no evidence.

    I know, that you, as a Christian, are taught to “just believe,” to “just have faith,” in what you are told. So you, I am sure, will go right on believing the Iraq 911 connection, even after George Bush himself finally admitting that there was no connection.

    The rest of your comments are equally intellectually bankrupt and without any reasoning at all.

    All the Christians here, shown to be lacking in basic reasoning power, shown to be un-educated in history and foriegn affairs and science, will simply resort to their predictable fall-back position (which also happens to be their starting point): “Jesus loves you and died for your sins. etc. etc.”

    Thing is, Jesus’s kingdom is not of this world.

    “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,—That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness”

    That is an example of our world.

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    By Brittany, May 16, 2006 at 6:25 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    That was an interesting “personal opinion” on the events of this weekend, Ms. Taylor. I attended the Philly Battle Cry this weekend, all the way from Ontario, Canada. I’ve seen the news, and your interview on the O’Reilly Factor. Your arguements are good, but you need to realized we are not out there to kill people, or take people by force, we are there to voice our opinions. America is a free country, with freedom of speech, so why are you making such a big deal about this? Are you scared that people who follow your anti-bush protests will have second thoughts about what they are doing? Maybe you should come look at Canada’s politics…we have legalized gay marriages, we have legalized prostitution. Canada is just going downhill right now….do you really want the main power of the world, “The greatest nation” to follow in our footsteps? We don’t believe in the stoning of Gays, or non-virgin brides, and disobedient children. We are not violent people. You know where the name “Battle Cry” even comes from? The Bible…we are fighting spiritual forces, not the forces of people. I believe you are mistaken when you said that we, as Christians, call you the enemy. You are most defintely not the enemy. Satan is. God loves all people. I’m really disappointed that you would publish this article and call us names such as “Facist” and implying that we are just the same as “Hitler’s youth.” I think as most people would agree, that is a little immature. As a reporter should you not go with an open mind instead of with your own preconcieved thoughts? I mean, a great reporter would at least come with an open mind. It is quite evident that you just came to this event to “prove” a point. We should not be causing a threat to you, we are just raising our voices on the things we believe, just like you have with your anti-Bush campaigns. Yes is an opinion piece, but if you want to call people names, you should keep that to yourself. Report the facts. Not the Fiction. If we don’t take a stand for what we believe, who will? We are not protesting against homosexuality. We are protesting about how the media shoves sex and violence down our throat and we are just suppose to take it. We are not going to be silent anymore. The average age of seeing their first pornographic image is age 9. Do you not see the reason we are protesting?

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    By Ga, May 16, 2006 at 6:23 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Here is the Christian exposed: “...I have to love [gays] for who they are not what they do…” [Kaitlyn], “...I am against homosexuality, but he sees that I hate the sin and not him.” [Vira]

    Espousing “Love” for people is a Christian trait; we all see the good in the “Love thy neighbor” shtick. However, let’s look at how Christians actually treat their gay, lesbian and transgender neighbors…

    They won’t let them marry or adopt kids. Won’t let then join the Army. Don’t want any of them mentioned is school text books, or be on television of in movies. They certainly won’t vote for them. Many publicly denounce them—every Christian leader especially and voraciously denounces them.

    But you “love” them? Yeah, right. You do not accept people who are gay as normal people who have all the right to a normal life as anyone else. It is against your doctrine.

    “Love the person, not the sin [of homosexuality].”

    And just who says being gay is a sin? Hmmm? Who could it be… I’ve yet to read anything is the New Testament that says that. Christ never mentioned it. I wonder where the idea that being gay is a sin came from. Hmmm? Who could it be… Oh! I know! Your priest, or your television evangelist. Perhaps they say it is a sin. But have they ever offered an explanation beyond hateful rhetoric?

    So, Christians actually fear and despise gays and lesbians. They have been told to fear and despise them. Christians have been told that the Bible says that gays and lesbians are sinners—and can probably list a vague passage or two that they have been told means that the “gay lifestyle” is sinful, from a book that is the supposed word of God, a book that has gone through 1500 years and a myriad of HUMAN translations and interpretations.

    No. Christians do not love people who are gay and lesbian. To Christians, love is a platitude, a saying, to be bandied about in attempt to wash away their own fears as they see a world that is different than the fairy-tale world that their Priests and Televangelists try to create in their heads for them.

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    By jesusislovereallyheis, May 16, 2006 at 3:59 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    “When you say that the Christians are hateful, you are saying that I am hateful as well. I am not. I work with a gay man, and if you were to ask him what he thinks of me, you would get very positive feedback. My gay co-worker knows that I am against homosexuality, but he sees that I hate the sin and not him. We are friends. Jesus did the same thing. “
    Typically self righteous.

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    By jesusislovereallyheis, May 16, 2006 at 3:54 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    You should see what Christian fundies are doing across the African continent and in many developing countries. Super brain washing! This is a conspiracy of global proportions and if we think Al qaeda is dangerous, wait till these so called Jesus lovers erupt with the fury of a billion nuclear warheads.
    I laugh at my Jewish friends who support Bush because he is “pro Israel.”
    Israel is a mere convenience to these fundamentalists who believe it must remain intact for the coming of Christ—at which time all non believers will be banished to hell for eternity.
    This neo-powerful cult of fundamentalist “Christians” is tied to hate, materialism and wealth building. They do not subscribe to the TRUE philosophies of Jesus Christ—simplicity, tolerance and love.

    By the way, Rupert Murdoch’s purchase of Myspace is all part of a diabolical masterplan.
    WAKE UP WORLD!!!

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    By Patrick Conway, May 16, 2006 at 2:56 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Ed Raby,

    I’m not sure what your problem is with truth or proof.

    1) I am not (am, are, ain’t, not sure, yes, don’t know) a liberal.  as proof I direct you to http://oldranger-worthamention.blogspot.com/2006/05/you-sound-like-demorepublibertagreen.html#links

    2) All of the Government has admitted that neither Saddam nor any one else in Iraq, and certainly not the innocent, dead and mangled Iraqi people, had any involvement whatever in 911.

    3) Am I crazy?  Don’t know but I do know GWB lied his imbecilic ass off to get US to go along with the attacks of two countries for the sake of oil and empire.  I do know that 911 is the lie of the millenium.

    4) If the last time you looked you saw Iraqi’s tearing down Saddam’s statue then you are a few years out of date and you have a lot of catching up to do.

    Ed, read the latest news.  Get the hell away from yhe MSM and test the alternative “waters” if you want the truth.  I don’t believe you want the truth, though.  I believe the truth is way out of your comfort zone.  I believe you are in way over your head here.

    Ron Luce(ifer) is a money making shill who is using the kids and the fairy tale God/Jesus for his and the neo-con purposes.  He knows how to entertain and direct simple minded people who don’t ask questions of the people with the answers but only follow what their preachers say.

    Wake up, Ed.

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    By Amber, May 15, 2006 at 7:39 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    First off I would like to say JESUS LOVES YOU and I love you also.  No matter what you do your sins CAN be forgiven.  No I don’t follow the ways of Ron Luce, I follow Jesus Christ and am proud of it.  I know you might just pass by my comment like it is nothing but I just wanted to let you know I am fighting for my generation and I am NOT against anyone, I just want others to know that I don’t want to hear music that talks about booty shakin or angry people.  I don’t want to want things with soft porn images.  I don’t need to see women half naked for I am a 15 year old with morales.  So that’s all that Im for…. once again JESUS LOVES YOU!

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    By Ed Raby, May 15, 2006 at 6:37 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Patrick Conway,

    Once again you liberals are so single minded. Are you actually saying that Saddam and Iraqi terroist had nothing to do with 911. Are you crazy!! Are you honestly saying that we should have just left Saddam alone. Let me tell you something if we had done that America would have shown their weakness and Saddam would have attacked AGAIN. Many people think the Iraqis don’t want us there. However, no one can deny that the media is completly one sided. They will tell you about the 100 Iraqis that hate America who are by the way terrorists, but won’t tell about the 1,000 Iraqis that do want us there. Last I looked it was Iraqis tearing down the statue of Saddam not Americans.

    If you want to call me terrorists that’s fine go right ahead. That does not mean it is true. I still don’t understand what you people have against people that actually want to do good. Does it not bother you, or even alarm you that kids are viewing porn, having sex, killing and cutting themselves, killing others, being raped, killing thousands of unborn babies each year, having sex with the same sex. No wonder the Divorce rate is so high. What is even worse is that you guys defend, and think that those things are alright. There is little point in commenting anymore on this site no one is going to change their mind. Nor will they consider it. I have considered both sides looked at both sides and I don’t see how supporting immoral acts is a good thing. I just don’t see it. Oh and you still havn’t explained to me about all those other presidents who are murderers.

    Let me just let all of you know I am praying for each and everyone of you. God loves you and I hope you will come to see that. On another note I would like to ask all Christians to stop commenting. There is no use in trying to change the minds of people who aren’t even willing to look at the other side.

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    By Pepper, May 15, 2006 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    “Many of you continue to miss the point of BattleCry, so I will make is very short and clear to everyone.

    We are not demanding a Theocracy; only anti-BattleCry people have stated that BattleCry wants a Theocracy.

    The BattleCry youth have their right to express themselves just as anyone else. We have not shown violence or hatred toward any person, nor will we in the future.

    This is not a physical battle; it is spiritual.

    We are not denying that Christ is the only way, but also not forcing them to become Christian.

    Just as a father will punish a child for doing wrong, so will God punish His children.
    Jesus loves you, but He hates sin.” - Vira

    I do not deny that you believe in your heart that Battlecry is not promoting a theocracy, but I do wish you to connect the dots between the people who are behind this organization and their beliefs about “raising up” young Christians and promoting them through the ranks of politics and business in order to change the laws of this land to Christian law.  Take a look at some of the laws being passed regarding “Covenant Marriages” where divorce is extremely difficult to obtain even in the case of abuse because both parties have to agree to the divorce and I sure don’t know of any abusive partner/parent who would be willing to relinquish his/her own personal punching bag.  Take a look at laws protecting pharmacists who refuse to fill birth control prescriptions (Not just Plan B) and even pre-natal vitamins if they happen to be prescribed by a family planning clinic.  Take a good hard look at the views of Jerry “They deserved it[hurricane Katrina] because of homosexuals and the ACLU” Falwell, Pat “Feminists want women to kill their children and become witches” Robertson, and others who are applauding and encouraging your movement.  They *want* America to be a theocracy and are using you to create an unquestioning army to help them.  You are right about one thing, though.  Right now, Battlecry represents a spiritual warfare for the hearts and minds of young people, but once your hearts and minds are unwaveringly dedicated to their particular theology and ideology in the guise of fighting for Jesus, you will be that much more inclined to take up real arms against your “enemies” (i.e. me).

    I, too, was involved in youth activities, although of a non-religious nature.  I went to conferences and camps organized by Peace and Justice groups and I made wonderful friends and had many life-changing experiences and helped alot of people through such projects as Habitat for Humanity, Food Not Bombs, AIDS peer education, etc.  I felt such a great sense of camaraderie and acceptance and love from my peers, but I was never told that I had to accept everything that the adults in these organizations said as infallible truth.  Anytime I felt I was being misled or ignored because of my youth, I was able to safely bring it up and not be afraid of someone accusing me of straying from the path, and the few times where I discovered the organizers to be hypocrites or not totally representative of my ideals, I worked to remove them or started my own project, but I always did my research before blindly binding myself to a cause.  I am still involved in activities that I have chosen to be worthwhile (although I wish I had the time to do more) because of the sense of accomplishment and doing something good for the world is so hard to resist.  I know this is how you feel.  You are experiencing a kind of “high” that comes from deep within your heart and that is a wonderful and empowering feeling.  You are told that what you are doing is going to change the world, but I think you should look into just what kind of world your “leaders” really envision.

    Just remember, every utopia sounds good at first, but you will find that the only way to create one is through force because not everyone thinks exactly the same as you do and never will.

    I won’t post specific links because I don’t want to be seen as biased, but do yourself a favor and do a little research into my claims and particularly on these people/topics:

    *Rousas Rushdoony
    *Dominionism/Christian Reconstructionism
    *Project for the New American Century
    *“Cell churches”/sheperding/similarities to Ponzi schemes
    *Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell (especially look at some of their many enlightening quotes)
    *Conscience clauses (regarding pharmacists and doctors)
    *HPV vaccine
    *Covenant Marriage Laws
    *Michael and Debi Pearl/Tedd Tripp (“chastening rod” advocates)
    *The hiring of marketers from Procter and Gamble to help sell you guys the Battlecry message
    *Any general history of the rise of Evangelism in America

    Please read both sides of these issues critically and come to your own conclusions about what Mr. Luce is asking of you.  There are many ways to spread peace and justice in the world and to make a difference without participating in the beginning of a revolution that will strip away people’s rights and even their very lives.  America is not going to crumble because I have sex with another woman or because your neighbor wears a miniskirt or because Janet Jackson may or may not have shown her breast on TV in front of millions of kids.  However, America as a free nation will disappear if we submit to a rule under a Christian Taliban with ministers and priests ruling over every aspect of our lives.

    Just think about it and, more importantly, educate yourself about it.

    Report this

    By Ga, May 15, 2006 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    A sickness grows….

    When control is in the hands of the very few, when doctrine is limited to a single book, FACISM is inevitable.

    Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini etc. are examples where single rule destroys an entire populous.

    Think of all the disasterous dictatorships in the world… they all have two things in common: governmeny ruled by they very few, and the suppresion of all dissenting views.

    Here is why “Christians” (or any religious fanatic) are sick:

    1. Absolute obedience to a handful of rulers.

    2. Absolute obedience to a single book.

    3. Absolute dismissal of all dissenting views.

    4. Absolute dismissal of all personal enlightenment beyond their church doctrine.

    How many of you “Christians” here read science books? Philosphy? Biology? History? Geology? Archeology? How many of you know about the history of, say, Bhutan? Malaysia? How many know about how viruses mutate? How many of you know about how yellow fever and smallpox were erradicted? (It certainly was NOT because of prayer.)

    If you “Christians” are right, then, the reason the world is in the bad shape it is in is because YOU ARE NOT PRAYING HARD ENOUGH!

    Pray for my soul!?!?!? No. Please don’t.

    Pray for peace!

    Pray for Osama bin Laden to be caught!

    Pray for knowledge and elightenment and understanding.

    Pray for the War in Iraq to be won tomorrow! If you are right, and you all pray, tonight, for peace, it will happen, right?

    Report this

    By Nick, May 15, 2006 at 4:04 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Im a Christian, a child of the Living God!  but i must say that i do not agree with either side here.  For one side is completely denying God and shoving Christians out of the way, and the other side, with Luce, is taking the Word of God in a wrong way!  Many things in the Bible are metaphorical, and the things in the Old Testament were Laws for the Jews before Christ came!  We are no longer bound to that law!!!!  If all of you would read the what Paul taught about Christ you would realize that the stoning and everything does not apply anymore, for there is forgiveness.  Homosexuality and everything like that IS WRONG!!!!  but we do not have to kill them because of it!  instead we fight with Love!  we do not fight with physical weapons!  READ GOD’S WORD!!!!!  YOU PEOPLE HAVE NOT SHOWN ONE OUNCE OF HIS WORD!!!!!  “For our struggle is not against FLESH AND BLOOD, but against the rulers, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the Heavenly Realms!” (Ephesians 6:12)  We do not fight physically, but SPIRITUALLY!  with LOVE, that is how we fight!  we treat our enemies with Love!  the ones who hate us and beat us and put us to death, we LOVE them!  just as God does Himself!  We Love them!

    So in this I take the side of the Living God, the Lord Jesus Christ who died and rose from the grave three days later!  I hope you all understand this!

    Love in Christ, Nick.

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    By Farakon, May 15, 2006 at 3:38 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Wow Julie.

    Your post really reminds us why christians call themselves sheep.  You are so easily led.

    Everything that spews forth from Ron Luce’s mouth indicates that he is advocate of the position that the bible is the literal word of god.  Every part of it, not just the warm and fuzzy parts that seem to appeal to the vacuous teenagers who seem to comprise 90% of this movement.

    Just off the top of my head take Leviticus 20:27 - A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

    We stone witches to death.  The literal word of god.

    Or how about Deuteronomy 21:18-21

    “If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:  Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.”

    We stone rebellious children to death.  The literal word of god.

    I could go on and on and on.  You might be able to quote some warm and fuzzy passages back at me but it would not do you and good.  If the whole thing is literally true then it’s not the warm and fuzzy parts I’m worried about.  It’s the part that will get me put to death for being a non believer (2 Chronicles 15:13)

    Behind all the cool looking “Rage against the Machine” style graphics and fancy banners and armbands is a very real threat to everything this country is founded upon.

    P.S. When you expressed your desire to “make a difference in the world by going to other nations and places in the States to help the poor and needy, to build relationships with them, and to share them the love and forgiveness christ offers.”  I wanted to throw up.  The image if the missionary with bread in one hand and the bible in the other is as old is it is sad.  They need food, they need education, they don’t need your smug, self righteous and, quite frankly, insane, supernatural theories.

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    By brian, May 15, 2006 at 3:13 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    All i can tell you is there is one sin that you cannot be forgiven of, That is the continual DENIAL of the “Holy Spirit”. So i pray that your heart and mind be opened to the word of God, That you do see the truth. That you may have a renewed spirit, and in the end you are saved. My heart grieves for your ignorance, and i wonder like Ron Luce, What has happened to make you sooooo angry, hardened your heart to his Word? May those walls be broken down inside you that you may see clearly the Truth in Christ. yours in Christ, brian

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    By MATTHEW, May 15, 2006 at 2:53 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    At first glance some of these comments scared me.But then i started paying attention to spelling and began to realize most of these individuals are just very tractable teens.I believe most of them are just confused and hormonally insane and will outgrow this irrational urge to be led around by this LUCE fanatic.If not,then our future as a modern democratic society will cease to exist as will any positive scientific advancements.SCARY STUFF.

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    By Jack Jonson, May 15, 2006 at 2:10 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Fascism-(A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.)
    The Christians at the rallies are not fascists because of many reasons.  One, we don’t have a dictator. Ron Luce does not have as much influence as you think.  Second, we don’t have an economy.  I did not feel threatened at all at the concert Semite a solutions are my own.  BattleCry I seemed more to uncensored things and censor them.  I also heard no racist remarks at all.

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    By Poledragon, May 15, 2006 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    A wise man once said “Opinion based on emotion cannot be dispelled by rational argument”.

    Report this

    By albiegf13, May 15, 2006 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    WOW..!  It sounds like there is a war going on here…  From my first and only impression of the listed articles and posts and without further investigation or performance of due diligence, I would venture to guess the following.

    The KKK has been reinvented and is recruiting from the ranks of the young disenfranchised members of our population who are trying to find an alternative to the MTV culture.  This is clearly a movement by a well meaning rank and file who want to contribute to our national cause.  These young people have clearly been intelectualy neglected by their families.  Ignorant they are not…. However, when forced to make a choice between the convetional and widely accepted pop, MTV, Paris Hilton, Brangelina, Bacardi Limon, Bently Coupe, Donald bad combover you’re fired Trump, American I’m screwing the judges Idol, Glam, Glitter, no limit poker, pornographic fashion, Vegas, LA, Palm Beach, NYC, People Magazine, Vanity Fair…. I can’t blame them for turning to this radical form of Christianity.  These are good kids that are being exploited… There is no doubt about that… We only have ourselves to blame…. This is a product of our capitalist culture that bears the seeds of it’s own destruction.  We are living in some very exiting times and I am just an observer with malice toward none.  God Bless all of you, and I mean “ALL OF YOU”.

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    By IHateFascists, May 15, 2006 at 1:38 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    ma77hew… VERY well said.

    Peace is the ONLY way we will survive; Peace does not make the rich wealthier however, so the peaceful struggle will not be an easy one as they will not let go of their power willingly… especially when the war machine is in the pockets of the fascists…

    Keep these articles coming to keep the civilized world informed.  This needs to be strictly monitored.

    Report this

    By SuffragetteReturns, May 15, 2006 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    This is a letter I sent out this weekend to my recipients list. I am a Philadelphia Peace Activist and WW2 Veteran’s daughter who also grew up in a neighborhood of exiles from the Nazis. I can recall each and every horror story imaginable. The thought of this type of rally conjures up imagines Hitler’s youth groups. It is frightening yet it infuriates.

    Dear Activists,

    Yesterday they handed over 70 Billion $$$ to the richest people in this country. How it got passed, I will never know.  All in the same week that the right-wing Christian youth groups converged on our city, reminiscent of the German fascist youth groups, we need to start fighting back with clear priorities that clarify what is good for the planet and ourselves. Why were countered-protested in San Francisco, our sister city and not here in Philadelphia? We need to get stronger! We need to send a strong leader to Congress in November.  We will continue to live through the disasters until Democrats realize that you cannot vote for Melba-toast candidates, you have to vote for the right candidate with the right principles. I will never forfeit my principles based on statistics alone. Statistics can be deceiving. G.W.Bush framing tactics being the prime example.

    We need to build up this Democratic Party to have men and women who will stop voting on fear and start voting on OUR principles!!!

    VOTE FOR CHUCK PENNACCHIO FOR U.S. SENATE ON TUESDAY!!


    My regards, SuffragetteReturns

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    By Jack Johnson, May 15, 2006 at 1:28 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    We live in a democratic-republic, being so we vote for our leaders to make decisions for us George Bush can’t (according to law) serve a third term in office (so he cannot be a tyrant).  George Bush cannot make laws, that his congresses job.  Congress can override vetoes with a 2/3 majority.  The Supreme Court can find laws unconstitutional and have them removed. (This being the system of checks and balances.)  George bush is not super human.  That information of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at the time could have been true for what we new.  Instead of waiting like we did before September 11 we acted.  Would you rather George Bush did not act and there were weapons.

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    By Steve Harrington, May 15, 2006 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    It’s amazing that all these Old Testament scholars (who believe that the Lord whispers in George Bush’s ears) don’t notice that when Jehovah was calling the shots in wartime, wars lasted maybe a couple of hours and his Israelite team won, and not on disputed calls either. Either Jehovah is getting awfully rusty, or someone is taking his name in vain.

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    By Emily, May 15, 2006 at 12:56 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    It sounds as if you are very confused on many things about Christianity and about how “Christians” are supposed to follow Christ.  You can’t just take scripture out of text like this.  There is a difference between the new testament and the old testament and that’s Jesus Christ, who cared enough about you to die!  I’m reminded of a song that Todd Agnew (a believer)sings called “My Jesus.”  In this song he talks about now days Churches and “Christains” see Christ with “pretty blue eyes and curly brown hair and a clear complexion, as He died.”  And it WASN’T LIKE THAT.  He then states that the “Bible says He was battered and scarred, did you miss that part.”  Battle Cry is about understanding.  Understanding that Christ did come whether you can except it or not.  Put it this way… What if I’m wrong?  What could I lose?  What could this generation lose?  Accourding to many we wouldn’t be losing alot, only a few parties where people are drinking and “partying.”  When we die, we would die.  However, what if You are wrong.  You could lose eternity.  I’m not here to scream, shout, or call you names and demand that you change.  That is between you and God.  I love you like a sister.  And I don’t want you miss the experience of the Love of God.  I’ll pray for you.

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    By Vira, May 15, 2006 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Many of you continue to miss the point of BattleCry, so I will make is very short and clear to everyone.

    We are not demanding a Theocracy; only anti-BattleCry people have stated that BattleCry wants a Theocracy.

    The BattleCry youth have their right to express themselves just as anyone else. We have not shown violence or hatred toward any person, nor will we in the future.

    This is not a physical battle; it is spiritual.

    We are not denying that Christ is the only way, but also not forcing them to become Christian.

    Just as a father will punish a child for doing wrong, so will God punish His children.
    Jesus loves you, but He hates sin.


    ———————————————————-
    And I do read much material pointing against Christianity, but none of it has proven anything to me (to disproove Christ as the Son of God) more than some interesting facts about history. If I could speak with the authors, I could tell them, using the Bible, why they have not proven their cases. - Vira

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    By Paul Danaher, May 15, 2006 at 11:43 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Heide wrote in #9450:
    “After reading this article, I dug up a German-English dictionary published in 1933.  The word “blitzkrieg” does not appear.  That leads me to think it was coined during the Nazi reign.

    The definition of “blitz” is “flash” used in an example of a flashlight.

    “Krieg” is defined as receiving or inflicting war. “

    A nice example of the problems of dictionaries - “Blitz” is “lightning”, and has nothing to do with a “flashlight”, which emits a steady beam of light. A photographic flash is a “Blitz”.
    “Krieg” is simply “war”, and the entry is either misquoted or defective.

    The architect of “Blitzkrieg” was Heinz Guderian, who only became a staff officer in 1933, so he inevitably overlaps Hitler. His key work is regarded as “Achtung Panzer”, published in 1936 (three years after your German dictionary).

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    By levi civita, May 15, 2006 at 11:36 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Only satire is powerful enough to overcome the insecure and the hateful!

    http://digitalskunk.blogspot.com/2004/08/living-on-diagonal.html

    Report this

    By Julie, May 15, 2006 at 11:32 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Wow.. how manipulative and distorted.  I was at the same event and I don’t remember half that crap you just wrote… Also, I’m a Christian and I do not support Bush, nor the war!  PLEASE do not generalize and stero-type Christians.  What you don’t understand is this has NOTHING to do with politics… it’s spiritual.  The Bible says that the man without the spirit CANNOT understand the things of the spirit, so I don’t expect you to understand BattleCry on anything other than a political/physical level. If you knew your theology, you would know the difference between Levitical law and the new convenant established through Christ and would re-evaluate your ideas about the Christian motivation. This is NOT about a governmental Theocracy… If you would like to continue using the word theocracy though, this is about a theocracy of the HEART… it’s making Jesus Christ the ruler of your heart and in doing so enacting PEACEFUL, loving, and Godly change in society.  Christian ideology has been manipulated in the past to cause horrible things, but atheist and agnostic based ideas have created just as much of a problem… there is no right way to do government, but there is a Godly way to live that will make a difference and that’s what Battlecry is about… SPIRITUALLY fighting for a generation to turn back to God… to find purpose, hope, and a reason to live even in a world so full of hate… this is about the spiritual well-being of society.  It has nothing to do with politics… We ALL have our presupposistions and biases, you and I both do and I respect that you put so much energy into what you believe, but try, as I am, to see this from another perspective.  It’s quite irrational to actually believe this is some Bush conspiracy to create a Theocracy… I don’t remember anywhere in the event them actually giving teens a way to take action politically or to kill or whatever it is you think this is about… the tools given were to help them stand for Christ in their schools by not giving into things like drinking, drugs, and sex.  They were tools to help them make a difference in the world by going to other nations and places in the States to help the poor and needy, to build relationships with them, and to share them the love and forgiveness Christ offers.  They were given tools to help them dedicate themselves to living in a Godly way and grow closer in devotion to Jesus through prayer and communication with Him.  There was nothing negative or hateful at all about it. Perhaps I’m mistaken and we were just at two different events…

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    By German Historian, May 15, 2006 at 10:59 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I’m German, so let me add some things on the term “Blitzkrieg”.

    First of all: the English Wikipedia article is wrong on many counts, including the first usage of the term.

    The first mentioning of the term is in the 1920ies, by the British historians Fuller and Liddel Hart. They devised it as an opposite strategy to the - then common - trench warfare under the name “lighting warfare”. The German term is a literal translation. Hitler himself described it as an Italian concept in a speech.

    The strategy was used mostly since WW2, though, and then by more German generals (Guderian and Rommel) than allied generals (Patton). Later Sharon (1967, Yom-Kippur war) and Schwarzkopf (first American war on Iraq) adopted it. A modern derivative is “Shock and Awe”.

    In 1938, in a German military weekly paper, the term is used for the first time in German sources and defined there as a strategic raid by the combined forces of tanks, air force and paratroopers.

    So Vira in comment 9278 is both right and wrong: it is not a Nazi tactic (it could, by the way, be argued that the hordes of Djhenghis Khan used it), but it is a German word.

    Comment 9412: There were, as a matter of fact, Nazis in every country. Fascism was very popular at the time. Only in European countries (Spain, Italy, Austria and Germany) takeovers happened, though. A coup in the USA was foiled. The conspirators there included William Hearst and Prescott Bush.

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