No, I don’t know how Noah carted all those animals on a boat. But I know a univeral flood is scientifically true. Evolution is a religion. Just like Christians, Muslims, Hindu, etc. I also have other scientifically proved information against evolution.  If you would like me to send it to you, I can.  At first, we must simply start with the formation of fossils....

A large flood is necessary for the formation of fossils in the first place. Fossils require quick and tremendous pressure to be formed. Without this, a carcass not only could not form a fossil over time but would be eaten by scavengers or destroyed by bacteria. The circulating water of a flood (along with gravity) would cause smaller organisms to naturally bury lower and more mobile organisms, with ability to temporarily avoid the flood, would be buried close to the top for this reason. Such things as fish, which are already low in the sea, would also naturally be buried low. A universal flood has been well documented historically as having occurred. Evolutionists have used fossils in rock sediments to say that simpler organisms were at the bottom of the sediment and more complex ones were at the top. They have ignored the great inconsistencies in the finds for which a flood could account but not the evolutionary process. In fact, in some strata, a tree can be seen protruding through several layers which supposedly formed over millions of years.

A lot of Christians are hypocritical, a lot of churches are not following the Bible at all, but twisting it to what they want it to say.  I can’t change them, but I know what Jesus stood for, and I know that I am striving to be a loving, forgiving, understanding, caring, and gracious person; one like Jesus was when he was on earth.

A Christian fundamentalist is by defintinition people who believe the bible is the fundamental truth from God.

They believe the Earth is only 6000 years old. That woman was literally created out of a rib of a man. They don’t believe in evolution.

The Bible is either the exact word of god or it isn’t the word of God at all.

please stop calling christians “christian fundamentalists.” you are misleading people into thinking that “christian fundamentalism” is a sect of christianity.  it is not.  “fundamentalist” basically means that they believe it is true.  any christian is by definition a fundamentalist.  whenever a christian says something you don’t like, you call them a fundamentalist because you think that makes them sound crazy.  hillary clinton is a christian.  is she a fundamentalist?  you people use this against all protestants, and you don’t know what you are saying.  is tina turner a buddhist fundamentalist?  the answer is YES.  but nobody calls her that.  just call them what they are--what over 80% of the country is:  christian.

I just wanted to say that this article is quite correct, as I was a member of Battlecry up until recently. Teen Mania Ministries caught me at a time in my life when I was very depressed. My parents had just gotten divorced, a good friend of mine died, and I was at a loss as to who I was, where I was going, what I wanted out of life. As such, it was easy for this insecurity to be exploited by Ron Luce and his movement. I felt that I was part of the solution, and that anyone who disagreed was the problem....including friends and family. I was there at many Battlecry rallies, in fact the last one I attended was last year in Detroit. But little by little, I began to think about the claims my ministry had made about the state of America. I began to think about what many of the counter-protests at our rallies were saying. And I began to think a lot about the Bible, Christianity and religion in general. I foolishly brought up my concerns at the Honor Academy , and my Youth Pastor said the problem was that I was thinking too much. Those were his words exactly. Soon after I walked away from Teen Mania and religion forever.

To those of you who are under the slick counter-pop culture marketing of Battlecry, I say this: You ARE your own person. You have a brain that is yours and yours alone. Battlecry blames pop culture for brainwashing you, when they wish to do the same. Don’t be a slave to pop culture or fashion, but don’t be a sheep for Battlecry. You are an individual! Love yourself!

Ethan, you refer to evolution as “the inept, scientifically bankrupt fairy tail of evolution.” yet you are the one trying to uphold a story about two naked people in some celestial garden with a TALKING SNAKE, as well as a story of a man who somehow managed to cart all 1,250,000 animal species onto a rickety boat. Also, he ran aground once, yet was somehow able to drop all the marsupials off in Australia, all the lemurs in Madagascar, all the Komodo dragons in Indonesia, etc.

If evolution was “scientifically bankrupt” as you say, it would not have the OVERWHELMING majority of scientists accepting and endorsing it. And yes, I’m familiar with Darwin’s Black Box. Michael J Behe’s book was resoundingly laughed at and panned by some of the most prominent members of the scientific community for it’s poor fact-checking and the fact that it, like most creationist books, has it’s conclusion already drawn before it delves into any biological “studies”. This is what separates true scientists from psuedo-scientists like these American intelligent design advocates.

RAE, Les, Erik, others? I recommend you check out and read a book called “More than a Carpenter” by Josh McDowell. It may answer a lot of your questions about “EVIDENCE” and “FACTS”, as RAE puts it. I recommend “Darwin’s Black Box” by Micheal J. Behe and “In the Beginning: Compelling evidence for Creation and the Flood” by Walt D. Brown PhD, for those of you who insist on believing, in your inept, scientifically bankrupt fairy tail of evolution.

First off, Les, I have to say thanks for putting a smile on my face. I don’t have kids!!! lol. As for what you were saying. My parents gave me a choice. True, I am homeschooled, and I do use a lot of Christian curriculum, but that is by choice, as I’m allowed to choose my curriculum. I have ALWAYS had free choice in this matter. My parents, although Christians, don’t attend church and don’t expect me to either if I don’t want to. I picked my own church. I CHOSE my relationship with God. No one has forced that on me. And believe me I’ve read my share of books and watched my share of documentaries...how bout you? Have you heard of Josh McDowell? You might want to read his book, Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

As for you, erik, what’s the difference in the play dough coming to life and forming itself over eons into a masterpiece than evolution’s claims? Not a whole lot. About the different church denominations...all I can say is Christian’s aren’t perfect. And not ALL Christians are sincere. There are going to be people who are going to come into the church and cause splits. I go to a Baptist church, but I’ll be the first to tell you that we are NO better than any other denomination. It’s all in the heart and if Jesus is Lord in your life, not what church you go to.
Have a great day!
CG4J

....and RAE and I didn’t disagree either cowgirl, he was just chiding me on getting into a pointless argument on human origin. The original point I made is that there are no “missing link”, which he later agreed with. And sorry, there is no such thing as an “evolutionist”. There are only people who accept science as fact

If Christians agree on everything, please ask yourself why is there an Episcopalian church, a Methodist church, etc.

ok, final comment

Playdough is an artificial mixture of wheat flour, water, deodorized kerosene or another petroleum distillate cowgirl, it is not an organic living mass. And furthermore, leaving it out on a desk would not cause it to do anything other than dry up. Again, I “pray” that you somehow, someday understand what it is you are talking about.

Goodbye

Cowgirl… you said “True Christians don’t go on other peoples’ word. They look it up for themselves.”

This implies a book, written by someone else, or “other people’s words” as you put it.

Try thinking for yourself instead of looking it up cowgirl. Learn both sides. Your refutations of science show that you really don’t understand anything about it. That america’s education system can turn out people in the 21st century that are so clueless about the universe thay inhabit is very worrying.

Thankfully, here in the UK things are a whole lot more secular. And if someone tried to give equal weight to, lets say, the flood of yaweh and geology to explain sedimentary rocks he’s be laughed out of the classroom.

I hold with Dawkins when he says that to force a particular religious world view on a child is child abuse. To deny a child the knowledge gleaned from many centuries of science and to replace it with a tawdry, bronze age myth and tell the child “This is true” is a terrible thing to inflict on your offspring.

It’s the kids i feel for. Adults can believe what thy like as long as it harms no one. But to continue the division and ignorance by indoctrinating the next generation is surely wrong. Hampering their ability to take their place in society and limiting them to a few small groups tucked away in the centre of america.

Read some books, watch some documentaries, take a course! Stop being so selective, learn the other side of the argument. And please, let your kids have free reign. Let them take science, keep them out of faith based schools. Let them make their own mind up when they are older and have all the facts.

Les

Well, RAE and Erik, sorry I couldn’t convince y’all of anything. Really, Erik, I’m shocked you didn’t have anything to say about the play dough won’t evolve into a statue comment, ‘cause it’s true. I mean...according to your evolutionary beliefs, shouldn’t the play dough be able to come to life on its own? I’m not ridiculing you, I don’t mean that in a bad way, I’m just ridiculing evolution. And you and RAE have just proven to me that even evolutionists can’t agree on what happened. Christians can. And yes, Erik, I CAN know God is real, because my heart tells me it’s true. I have never been brainwashed at my church (I’m a junior, thanks, so I don’t go to Sunday School), any information I accept in there is stuff that I prove for myself. True Christians don’t go on other peoples’ word. They look it up for themselves. Thanks for your concern though and have an awesome day to both of y’all.
God bless.
CG4J

RAE is right, it is a pointless argument. In fact it is an argument that was settled several decades ago yet still lingers in small pockets of fundamentalist christian thought. And yes, human beings are not descended from “missing links”, notice how I put those in quotations in my last post. The term “missing link” in and of itself is outdated and no longer used. The word is “transitional fossil”

On the subject of evolution cowgirl, it’s odd how you throw “the big bang” into the equation and God’s, when Darwin’s theory says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of God. The only reason the faithful take issue with evolution is that it challenges(and destroys)the unbelievably stupid creation myth of Genesis. This is what I find so astounding about the fundamentalist christian groups in America who make videos like the one you posted. These fools are so set on gathering all the bogus information and claims made by psuedo-scientists that they can, are so focused on disproving what has been universal regarded as an established scientific fact, that NO ONE seems to want to wake up and say “Wait a minute....these people are trying to convince us that the entire human race are the offspring of a naked man and his naked ‘sister’ who was created from his rib and who both lived in some silly garden with a talking snake!”

And as for “knowing God”. I’m sorry cowgirl, you don’t know God is real. You believe it, and there is a difference between knowing and between belief. And like RAE, this conversation has reached its zenith with me, and I will be on my way.

Erik, I think you’re the one in Lala land here. Think about it. Where do y’all trace the earth from?? Hmm. A big bang. It is impossible for life forms to come from nothing, isn’t it? They HAD to come from somewhere and that had to be God. You either believe it or you don’t. I think it really is like what RAE said. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I see a question that the atheists have asked a lot of Christians on here. “Oh yeah? Well where did God come from?” I can’t explain that. I don’t know. But tell me...where did the big bang come from? How was there a universe if no one created it? I hate to break it to ya, but you leave playdough on a table it’s not going to evolve over time into a magnificent sculpture, is it? That’s basically the claims you make. I’m not claiming to know everything, but I know that God is real. You believe it or you don’t.

Cowgirl, again, for some reason creationists collectively shut their eyes and put their fingers in their ears and say “Lalalalala, I’m not listening. Lalalalala, I’m not looking” when they are confronted with the evidence for so-called “missing links”.

There are THOUSANDS of transitional hominid fossils that have been discovered, yet the intelligent design proponents for some reason try to ignore nearly 100 years worth of research in paleo-anthropology and primatology and say that these intermediate fossils do not exist when they are right there in plain sight.

Here’s Australopithecus Boisei
http://www.skullsunlimited.com/graphics/bh-015-lg.jpg

Here’s Homo Habilis
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/891/20152901.JPG

Let’s put things in the modern perspective, here’s a gorilla skull
http://australianmuseum.net.au/human_evolution/images/ gorilla_skull_jaw_front.jpg

Now here is a human skull
http://www.biovere.com/cart/images/real_bone_human_sku ll_male_s.jpg

So is it coincidental that both skulls essentially have the same general configuration? The same forward facing binocular eye sockets? The same general layout of the mandible and dental pattern? In looking at the hands of both species, why do they both have seemingly the same pentadactyly shape and function?

RAE, I can’t tell you how much I appreciated that comment. You and I will probably never agree. But i liked what you said about I had a RIGHT to believe. And I have to completely say the same thing for you. But please...you do have to at least acknowledge that the histories in the Bible are correct. I’m not talking about the creation, I know in my heart that is real, and I wish that you did too, but I’m talking about the historical stuff. In Mark chapter 13, verse 14, it says, “‘So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not’ (let the reader understand), ‘then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.’” That’s Jesus talking, all except for the part in parentheses where it says “(let the reader understand)”. That already happened. At one point in time, the Romans came into the temple and sacrificed a pig (which was an unclean animal to the Jews) on the altar of the temple to one of their gods. And when it did a lot of the jewish people that believed in Jesus left for the mountains just like the Word says. That happened, it is historically proven. If that much was true, doesn’t that mean that the rest is too? I know you’re gonna say no to that, but PLEASE consider it. If that much is historically proven, how about the rest? I don’t mean to offend you with this, I’m just asking you to think about that. This is part of a bunch of stuff that convinced me the Bible is true, word for word.

To Les...I have one question for you...why are you so bitter? What did Christians ever do to you that made you so incredibly angry? You sound like you’re ready to start exterminating us! A lot of that is false. Christians DON’T blow people up in the name of Jesus Christ, at least not true ones. I just would like to know that, I don’t mean it in a rude way.

Erik...I’m gonna take one of your statements and ask you a question about it.  “Again cowgirl, its clear to see you are getting your information from laughable sources. I guess creationists have it in their heads that in evolution when species evolve, the class, family or order of species they originated from disappears entirely.” In that case...where are the missing links between the apes and humans? According to the evolutionists...if that’s true, and the apes are still here. Where are the missing links?

Have a great day, y’all!
CG4J

Many times we are confronted with a plaintive “Why can’t we agree to disagree and respect each others points of view?” I will try to explain my own personal stance here. Enough is enough! It’s time to draw that line in the sand. For too long, for millennia, since man first started to form societies we have had our view of the universe tainted with religion. To say that theists have had a fair crack at the whip would be understatement in the extreme. Theistic dogma has caused more misery, more wars, more suppression and held back the discovery of the universe we inhabit than any other invention. From the indoctrination of generations of innocent, inquiring children in the home, through schools and their mandatory acts of worship of fictitious, vengeful gods, the foul distortions introduced by the likes of the Dover School Board, the theft of a woman’s right to control of her own body, the intrusion of a false morality upon our daily lives and the stifling of science. All these things must stop! It is no longer a matter of respect, of tolerance or of agreeing to disagree. The stakes are far too high. No! You cannot blow people up in the name of your mythical being. No! You cannot kill doctors who choose to help women regain control of their lives. No! You cannot divert money that should be healing the sick to spend on your costumes and buildings. No! You cannot tell me how to think anymore. No! You cannot claim that your damn stupid, lame, small minded little creation myth has equal value to Darwin’s evolution and modern cosmology. The time has come to leave the nursery, cast off these childish, dangerous stories and grow up! Religion has sapped enough of mans resources. Time, money, effort, emotion and whole damned races have been swallowed up by these deluded zealots. Every theist that EVER went into battle always had a god on their side. Every poor sap who worked till they dropped was promised their reward after their death. The crippled, the sick, the outcast and the insane have turned to religion and been rewarded with nothing except vacuous empty promises. It’s time to stop the madness. It’s time to confront this awful cancer, this creeping, insidious lie. It’s time to free humanity from the shackles of the past. from the guilt. from the original sin. from the inferiority. It’s time to stop the killing. The gang mentality. Them and us. The threats of heaven, the lure of hell, the hell of the faithful. Theists, you’ve had your chance. You’ve had millennia of chances. Look at the planet now. Is it better for religion or does the worlds major human conflicts have their very basis in religion. Theism is a mind numbing death shroud for humanity. It can not be allowed to continue. We have to stop lying to our children. To ourselves. This is why I leap in and denounce theists wherever I find them. If I upset a few simpletons who cannot think outside their late bronze age shackles then so be it. But your not going to poison this race forever. If you theists have your way you will be the end as you always predicted. Self fulfilling prophecy. I will do my level best to rid my race of this handicap. The future of man lies in the stars. Our Earth is finite, eventually our sun will leave the main sequence and go red giant. If we’re not out of here by then we, as a race. are doomed. It is science that is our route to our true home in the universe. You can’t pray your way out of this one.

“Another point I want to make to both you and Erik is if humans were descended from apes, why do we still have all the apes that exist today?”

Again cowgirl, its clear to see you are getting your information from laughable sources. I guess creationists have it in their heads that in evolution when species evolve, the class, family or order of species they originated from disappears entirely. Is that what you’re getting at? Because I can tell you that in evolutionary studies, there is no amount of research that has EVER made that claim.

Amphibians developed from lobe-fin fishes in the mid to late Devonian. Fishes are still aplenty, as are amphibians. Reptiles, in turn, evolved from terrestrial amphibians which developed hardened skin and egg shells to cope with a terrestrial habitat. But according to proponents of creationism, apparently amphibians should cease to exist because certain families branched off into reptiles. Silly, silly logic.

Ursines, canines and pinnipeds(bears, dogs and seals) all share a common carnivore ancestry. But the creationist views this as a gap in evolution’s logic, as they one or more of those three must cease to exist in order for the other to?

And finally cowgirl, my country has “gotten away from God”. We no longer let religion infringe upon individual lives. We no longer let it have sway in government the way it used to. We no longer let it dictate what we teach in public education. Sadly, this is not the case in the United States, which I have lived in for two years. You say those were the ideals and the values your country was based upon. Correct me if I’m wrong, but do you not have a separation of church and state? If America was meant to be a Christian nation, why did Thomas Jefferson author the First Amendment? Why did Thomas Paine, the godfather of your revolution against the English make scathing attacks upon organized religion and church interference in Common Sense, the American manifesto? I hope you know what works I’m talking about, right?

OUCH! Seems like my last comment/video seemed to upset you guys a bit. About your video, Mr. Mayfield...I watched it and found it interesting. I do have one question...I don’t know if you know enough about the people who made that video to know, but do atheists believe in absolute truths? (That is, “truth is truth is truth” opposed to “well that may be true for you but it’s not for me”.) If not...how do you know they’re not stretching the truth? I don’t know about you, but for me two plus two don’t equal three. Another point I want to make to both you and Erik is if humans were descended from apes, why do we still have all the apes that exist today?

To you, Erik, if you lived in America you would see how far from God our country has become. I LOVE this country, and I am extremely blessed to live here, but we’ve strayed really far from the truths that our country was founded on. It’s sad, but I still have hope that we can change that. ALSO...I’d like to address this statement you made. “Who is teaching these kids and where the hell did they get a degree?” Sir, we can all talk big online, but I’d rather you didn’t say anything to me if you can’t do it without swearing...I’m not saying I’m perfect because I’m SO far from that and I slip and say words I shouldn’t more often than I’d like to admit, but I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t try to talk big online. That’s a huge pet peeve of mine. It’s very immature.

Thanks, guys, for your input. I appreciate hearing things from the other side. God bless!
CG4J

Cowgirl4Jesus writes “ALSO...if evolution is real, why did the evolving stop? I mean...according to evolution’s standards...we shoudl still be changing, right?”

Wow, is education in America THIS bad? Who is teaching these kids and where the hell did they get a degree? Evolution does not “stop” cowgirl, it is simple adaptive change to a changing enviornment. Despite what these imbecile fundamentalist groups are telling you, evolutionary changes happen over a LONG period. Changes do not happen instantly.

“Scientists have said that if the earth was that old, there would probably be hundreds of feet of dust on the moon. When they walked on the moon there was only about 5 feet of dust.”

Ok, 1) who are these scientists you speak of and 2) where did you hear such embarrassing tripe about the depth of lunar dust being a clear indicator of the earth’s age?

You see cowgirl, in science, unlike religion, we don’t just go by hearsay. We don’t hear vague accounts of some phantom nameless “scientists” and think “Well, ok then”. Data and research must be indentified, analyzed, researched and caluculated. Claims must be clearly referenced.

These lies are an indicator of the senseless stranglehold that religious fundamentalists have on your country.

Cowgirl,

I’d like to suggest you watch a rebuttal to your BattleCry propaganda, then ask yourself why people who are so “righteous” and “moral” must rely on lies and misinformation to promote their ideas and criticize that which they don’t like.  Are those really the people you want to emulate or follow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1CTWmtczn4

RAE, you still seem a little pissed off to me, but whatever. As for evidence...I think there is tons of it everywhere you look. Such as evolution claims that the earth is billions of years old. Scientists have said that if the earth was that old, there would probably be hundreds of feet of dust on the moon. When they walked on the moon there was only about 5 feet of dust. ALSO...if evolution is real, why did the evolving stop? I mean...according to evolution’s standards...we shoudl still be changing, right? Watch this video....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4JxjLhvqnc

Les is right, I wonder if the Battlecry organization and other fundamentalist christian groups realize how ridiculous they look to those of us in Europe. Battlecry actually had mission trips to Europe not too long ago, including my country(Sweden) but they canceled the program because people here are smart enough not to be swayed by a bunch of clueless, small town American teens preaching fairy tales.

Mr. Luce is fond of bashing my country for our tolerance of homosexuals and looser sexual mores. Funny how he doesn’t address how, in addition to having one of the most atheistic populations in the world, we have some of lowest crime, STD and teen pregnancy rates compared to the staggering amounts of the so-called Christian nation of America.

“Oh, and please take a look at what Wikipedia has to say about the meaning of Blitzkrieg. It’s not a Nazi thing. It’s a German term.”

It means “Lightning War” and nothing more. Used for their mechanised, fast advance using air strikes to presage the tanks and motorised troops. First used in the Spanish civil war… you got to remember things were trench bound and horseback led up until then. Use the Somme as a previous reference point. “Blitzkrieg” was a whole new awful advance… But very effective. The Stuka dive bomber aircraft is the embodiment of this style of warfare at the time. Only a single bomb, one aircraft, but a screaming siren attached that howled during it’s dive. The main impact was the sound, the speed and then the mechanised armour folowing on from behind. From this position in the 21st century we can only glimpse a tiny fragment of the fear that the German forces could inflict with their new invention of “Blitzkrieg”.

You strange, backward, theist colonials are so very odd when viewed from this side of the Atlantic. You are willing to hinder your children with creationism and limit their educations by weighing them down with late bronze age dogma. Yet you make use of the products of the scientific method you say cannot be right about geology, evolution, genetics, palaeontology, cosmology, history ect. ect. ect.
Your all happy to use computers that use quantum physics to work, burn oil that is made from life from eons before your myth even reckons the universe existed. You gaze upon stars whose light has been travelling for millions of years and bask in the sunlight from our own star that has been burning for far, far longer than your tawdry little creation myth allows for.
How do you reconcile these things? Would you really rather hogtie your kids to this narrow, sad, deficient view of the cosmos than allow them free reign to explore the wonderful, beautiful universe they inhabit?
I’m don’t give a monkey’s about you, it’s your kids i am sorry for. They will not thank you when they realise the lies, the deceit and the blinkers you saddled them with.

http://richarddawkinsfoundation.org/foundation,growingUpDVD

Les

Rob:

“The only father I answer to, Ethan, is MY father....NOT some invisible, imaginary being from ancient Hebrew legend who lives up in the sky and throws hissy fits over homosexuals and people who don’t vote republican. There is NO tangible evidence. There is none for Yahweh, none for Zeus, none for Shiva, none for Ra, none for Wotan, none for any of these anthropomorphic characters that men of ancient times simply concocted out of their own imaginations to give meaning to the world around and the life they lead.”

-There you go again. Who are you trying to convince? Certainly not me. *Yawn.*

Hissy fit at people who don’t vote republican? I have to say I’ve never pictured God as a lobbyist before. 

“Question: If your “stuff” is mostly cherry-picked from a book of fables, wishful thinking, fantasies, unsupportable assumptions, glib opinions, emotional crutches, and other assorted claptrap, DOES IT REALLY MATTER HOW WELL YOU KNOW IT?”

-That’s odd. I’ve never seen any of that in the Bible. Nor have I ever felt the slightest need for any “emotional crutches, and other assorted claptrap”. Yes, yes, I know. I’m diluted and brainwashed. Don’t tell me. I GET it already. Sheesh, you people need to come up with a new line.

Mr. Mayfield:

“No Ethan, I don’t need to see you whimper or grovel. And I frankly don’t care if you continue to delude yourself with a non-existent deity or not.  JUST ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION!  I’ve asked it 3 times now and you’ve ignored it every time.”

“Quoting an unknown, “Since logic, reason, and historical precision play no part in Christianity, unfortunately, these disciplines are useless in discussions with Christians.”

-Another example of your ignorance. What you said is completely false. There is a wealth of logic, reason, and historical precision behind Christianity and the Bible. I would tell you about it all, but talking to you about anything is a waste of time. Futile.

“Human progress has been stunted beyond measure because of the likes of 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.”

- Yeah if not for 1 Corinthians, we’d have explored the galaxy, eliminated pollution, and discovered a cure to cancer by now, huh? lol

Once again you skilfully prove the point of these verses.

“You may think that preferable, but I’ll gladly suffer the slings and arrows of too much knowledge.  Or as Robert Ingersoll said, “Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith.”

-Unfortunately your thoughts don’t go any deeper than your stunted perception of the world.

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use.”

-Neither do I. That was an excellent quote from Galileo. (It’s a perfect picture of how science and faith can coexist peacefully together, btw.) Which is why I apply those three values to my faith regularly. I’d give you specific examples but with you that would be an utter waste of time. Futile.

I’m actually 24, cowgirl, but yeah I see what you’re saying.

Gosh, RAE, calm down just a bit. As for you, Rob, once again, all I have to say is go to Battle Cry and try it out for yourself. Please don’t tell me about the sessions they have at Acquire the Fire, b/c I’ve been there and you haven’t, and I think I’d know. The session of “the pig pen” was referring to the parable of the Prodigal Son, and NOT to nonbelievers. the point he was making was the fact that the prodigal son didn’t stay IN the pig pen feeding pigs, he got out of there and did something about it. That’s the point Ron Luce was making. Get your facts straight, Rob, before you try and tell everyone how it is. Believe me, I know. Have a great day.

Quoting Etiainen, “The first is Matthew 5:17 further on it talks about why the law of the pharisees mustnt be kept but why righteousness must be - this is the difference between the 10 commandments and some of the other law books in the bible...”

It takes a special type of DUUUUHHHH to answer my question WITH my question, and NOTHING more.  I ask how Matthew 5:17-19 can be reconciled with the cherry-picking that Ethan Baker (and most Christians) do when it comes to obeying the laws and Etiainen cites what?  Yep, Matthew 5:17!

Let me guess, if asked a math question like, if x+3=4, then what does x equal, your answer would be what?  X?

I know there must be some overbearing need for Xians to believe that the Bible makes sense, but it’s sheer lunacy to continue to insist that Matthew 5:17-19 says anything except that Jesus came to uphold the laws.  Not just the 10 Commandments, not those and some that aren’t too bad, but ALL of them.  Even those that make your rational sensibilities squirm with disgust.  There isn’t one verse, not even a partial verse that suggests, much less explicitly states otherwise.

I can only hope that you’re not referring to the Leviticus, Exodus and Deuteronomy laws when you talk about “all the confusing and largely very human law systems” that you blame on the Pharisees.  Those dear Etiainen ARE “God’s laws” - you know the ones Jesus came to uphold and NOT do away with, not one jot nor tittle.

We might as well be arguing about a verse that says, “I have come to declare chocolate the greatest flavor.” While I read that and say to myself, “Hmmm, Jesus really thinks chocolate is best,” you’d be telling me that he prefers vanilla.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad that Christians are such HUGE hypocrites when it comes to the Bible.  I’m ecstatic that there has been an Enlightenment and moderating influence on their “interpretations.” It is far greater that they ignore the LAWS OF GOD that command them to kill adulterers, witches, sabbath workers and unruly children.  But at least have the decency to admit that you are DEFYING THE “WORD OF GOD” because you find it reprehensible, vile and/or abhorrent.  Don’t be so damn intellectually dishonest and pretend that it says white when it says black.

Etiainen, your piss-poor attempt at giving a pass to the allowed practice of slavery in the Bible is almost as laughable as your pseudo-intellectual ranting.

“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46)”

Hmmmm, doesn’t quite sound like a contract between two families as you put it. Sounds more like owning and treating human beings like livestock in a manner that died out in this country only relatively recently.

Let’s take a look at the lovely practice of selling your own flesh and blood daughter into sexual servitude shall we?

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11)”

Wow.....so what’s that about Etiainen? Let me guess.....that whole passage right there has been “misunderstood” or “taken out of context”, right?

Hahaha dammit forgot the verses!

The first is Matthew 5:17 further on it talks about why the law of the pharisees mustnt be kept but why righteousness must be - this is the difference between the 10 commandments and some of the other law books in the bible (as shared by the torah)
The second is Mark 12:29-31

“Even with the insultingly simplified Message Bible, you’ve never answered my question - which “laws” will you keep, which will you throw out?”

This is just ONE of the things I’ve chuckled at while reading through these comments - Its sort of a hilarious humanist “im acting intellectual” way of arguing which (before I did my research) used to intimidate me.

Lets get into culture and context a bit shall we? The Pharisees had over 600 laws on how to keep the 10 commandments, Christ Himself said that He had not come to ‘throw out’ the TEN COMMANDMENTS, but to bring them back to exactly what they were - TEN commandments. Checkout:  for this - its clear that Christ came to back up the 10 commandments (most notably the first 2:  ) but take out all the confusing and largely very human law systems that the pharisees had tried to create - eventually, this is partly the reason for His death (if we look at it in human terms)

So there’s your answer

Now guys, let me be honest here, almost everyone on this supposed ‘truthdig’ website (hilariously named with a heavy hint of irony) has such a poor knowledge of theology its unreal! One person claims to have studied Christianity all his life but misses the mark on almost all his points, another lists a whole load of ‘problematic’ verses which (if only someone did their research) could be discounted with the most basic knowledge of translation and cultral context. An example? Take the ‘slavery’ verse he/she points out. Slavery was infact a contract set up between two volunteers that often lasted between 3 and 7 years. It was one way a person could pay back extreme debt (economically or morally speaking) a person would be clothed, fed like a family member and live with the family or with their own (it was their choice) They would be treated humanely and would be more like an unpaid servant. When the agreed debt was paid, the ‘slave’ would be released. Infact, a law was even bought in to help these people get back on their feet again because often they were treated so well, they didnt want to leave! Many became paid servants of the families.

See? Just that tiny little bit of knowledge and suddenly we see that things arent quite so bad afterall.

The fact is, is that you guys are ranting on about this Battlecry ‘propaganda’ whilst failing to realise you yourselves are the victims of the biggest lie possible! This whole Humanism thing is based on sheer ignorance and a large amount of snobbery (again, ironically)

Battlecry sites MTV as one of the things its contradicting. When the owner of MTV was asked how it felt to influence a generation he replied “we dont influence them, we OWN them” I for one will fight and fight and fight until my kids can grow up in a world that wont brainwash them at every corner (I use the word ‘fight’ there to denote spiritual battle there before people whine, ignorant of metaphore, that I’m a nazi)

Peace out guys

Sorry if I sound a bit sarcastic - I just wish people would actually research before they claim to know something on an issue which they are sadly ignorant of

cowgirl, this is an open forum, we are free to debate as we wish. This is an exchange of ideas, albeit a terse one. If you can’t take the heat, the kitchen door is over there.....

“Wow isn’t that fun to go be a knowitall and rip someone down. I’m a Christian. Nobody said I have to be a doormat.”

Many christians, particularly those of Ron Luce’s ilk, and a few of the people who have replied here are fond of using those that may disagree with them like doormats as well. We’re constantly threatened with hellfire by your flock, mocked, looked down upon and blamed for the supposed ills that this generation is facing. Luce has a segment during one of his Battlecry rallies called “the pigpen” in which he has teen actors standing in an actual pigpen with real pigs and acting out “sinful” practices like talking on a cellphone and drinking a beer. Luce is saying, in plain black and white, that if you’re not an evangelical born again....you are a pig. Wow, what warm christian love right there.

“Seems like everyone on here has told you repeatedly...Ms. Taylor DOESN’T have her facts straight.”

It’s funny how we have been constantly hearing that. Yet I have read several articles about Battlecry from various authors, some of whom consider themselves believers, who detail the EXACT same aspects of what goes on at these propaganda campaigns. Battlecry came to San Francisco and held a protest right across the street from where I work, so I was compelled to check it out for myself. Taylor admittedly isn’t that great of a writer. She writes in a very emotion-based knee-jerk reactionary way, and I definitely don’t agree with a lot of the things she stands for, but comparing her articles to others I read it seems she’s pretty much on the money here.

wow guys!! Mark Mayfield and Rob - Aren’t you a little ashamed of yourself arguing with people who are mostly teenagers?? Wow isn’t that fun to go be a knowitall and rip someone down. I’m a Christian. Nobody said I have to be a doormat. Why don’t you guys just grow up?? Seems like everyone on here has told you repeatedly...Ms. Taylor DOESN’T have her facts straight. And if you guys know so much maybe you should know enough to get both sides of the story?!? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Good job, Ethan Baker and all the rest of you guys! You guys know your stuff!
God bless.

No Ethan, I don’t need to see you whimper or grovel. And I frankly don’t care if you continue to delude yourself with a non-existent deity or not.  JUST ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION!  I’ve asked it 3 times now and you’ve ignored it every time.

How ironic that you claim what I said made no sense when most of what I was doing was quoting YOUR Bible.  I agree - it MAKES NO SENSE!  I’ve been trying to get you to explain it, but all you do is throw out 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.  That’s completely meaningless.  Quoting an unknown, “Since logic, reason, and historical precision play no part in Christianity, unfortunately, these disciplines are useless in discussions with Christians.” You’ve proven that beyond ANY doubt.

Every faith thinks they’re god is greater than human knowledge; every faith thinks theirs makes sense only to those who believe; every faith feels persecuted for their belief; every faith is mostly awash in people who are NOT “the brightest and the best.” And to the eternal detriment of human society, every faith has, and always will, seek to say that their deity has all the answers and man should look no further than the “good book” for wisdom.

Human progress has been stunted beyond measure because of the likes of 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.  You may think that preferable, but I’ll gladly suffer the slings and arrows of too much knowledge.  Or as Robert Ingersoll said, “Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith.”

Or to quote Galileo Galilei, “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use.” And if I should meet a god after I die and find this to be otherwise, I’ll calmly spit in his eye and request the escalator going down.

Ethan, you like many other believers attempt to reassure yourselves of God’s existence by having this notion that atheists and agnostics deep down know that God really exists, they just choose to say otherwise for selfish reasons of rebellion.

It reminds of when I was little and kids around me started telling me that Santa Claus wasn’t real, and I protested defiantly and chastised them with the warnings of “he sees you when you’re sleeping, he knows when you’re awake”. I wanted it be true, so I tried to convince myself that they knew it was true but were just being “rebellious”.

‘If your looking for a Christian who will bow helplessly and whimper before the holes you try poke in his faith, before your superior knowledge of the way the “real” world works, and grovel for forgiveness for believing in such nonsense, then you can keep on looking.’

I have never in my life come across that type of Christian. The type of Christians I usually run into are the token pious kind who smile uncomfortably, look around awkwardly, repeat parrot talking points of “God loves you!” or “Jesus is lord!”, recommend Bible passages or use circular logic when they come across someone who challenges their ideals and beliefs. Seldom have I come across the kind you describe, and to be honest I’d be pretty disappointed if I did meet one :-p

The only father I answer to, Ethan, is MY father....NOT some invisible, imaginary being from ancient Hebrew legend who lives up in the sky and throws hissy fits over homosexuals and people who don’t vote republican. There is NO tangible evidence. There is none for Yahweh, none for Zeus, none for Shiva, none for Ra, none for Wotan, none for any of these anthropomorphic characters that men of ancient times simply concocted out of their own imaginations to give meaning to the world around and the life they lead.

Nothing you ever say makes any sense Mr. Mayfield.

And you can stuff it, Rob. I’ve heard it all before and I just got through listening to all this tired “God is fake” stuff from RAE. The second I see ridiculous stuff like you said, I just let out a big yawn. If your looking for a Christian who will bow helplessly and whimper before the holes you try poke in his faith, before your superior knowledge of the way the “real” world works, and grovel for forgiveness for believing in such nonsense, then you can keep on looking. I will NEVER turn away from God or my faith. He exists, he’s real, active in the world, and everyone including you still have to answer to him. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can shed this no-God fantasy world you’ve created around yourself.

Rob, here’s the problem: Your atheism is just pretend. That’s right...it’s a facade. Merely a childish temper tantrum thrown because you don’t want to do what daddy (God) tells you to. “I don’t have to answer to nobody!!” you say. You’re just going to throw a screaming fit. Never mind that he loves you. It’s your way or the highway because you want what you want and ain’t nobody gonna tell you otherwise. By desperately trying to assure yourself that God isn’t real, you think you can escape the consequences of his existence.

To put it in the words of Mr. Mayfield, if you still want to blow a trumpet for “God is pretend” go right ahead.  It will make just as much of a difference in this world as if you stood outside your house and literally blew a trumpet.  You’ll likely annoy some people, possibly delight some people too.  But in the end, it’s just noise.

Remember 1 Corinthians 1:18-25? Mr. Mayfield, Rob? Yeah, you love it don’t ya? I’ve had enou