Hey i went through about the same thing alot of young people go through-i was practically born and raised in church - I came to a time in life when i hated the word church and could not stand anything that had to do with it- i was just so angry from things that had happened in thechurch i grew up in and the way that they would talked to me and try to not let me think for myself- I stopped going to church for sometime- then i started to go to church-but it was not because i wanted to it was to make my parents happy- again I stopped going to church this time it was for a couple of years- i was now a young adult trying to live life my way- no rules just mine- i did not want to go to church because i thought they were trying to brainwash me- as time passed by I found my self doing the same things over and over and never felt happy afterrwards- I fell into a bad depression-and began to take medication for it- suicide knoked at my mind several times- i stoped forgiving people- I could not find happiness in anything i did- i would constantly argued with everyone- my family became concerned and suggested i talk to God and try to go to church- but i just did not want to hear it i wanted to just keep living my life my way- one day after a big arguement with my brother- i said to myself i need to pray and ask God himself to help me to show me the way-One day my brother came up to me and asked me to go with him to this big pink church, that he had started to go to- i thought about it really and decided to give it a try- I then found myself going to church couple of times- i would just sit there and relax and sit back and yes sometimes i would fall asleep- One day I was coming home from work and got into a car accident- i really did not realize how bad it was untill i heard a cop who was at the seen who sounded very concerned say oh my God were is the driver and he was looking around- the people who were trying to calm me down called him over he looked at me very puzzled and said she was in there as in disbelieve. I kept thinking about what he said on my way to the hospital where i was released just a couple of hours later- i walked out with just bruises. After the accident i went to take some pictures of the car for the insuerence, when i saw the car I broke in tears and realized that God has alway been there and that once again he was there watching over me- I told myself that i had to change my life around- I kept going to church with time i actually started to listen to the preachings, participate in church- With time i liked going to church. I gave my testimonie in church and i felt good. I took a look back a couple of years earlier and honestly i do not know were i would be today especially if i kept living life my way- but i thank God he showed me the way and today i am happy and living a very good life-even though know and then i feel a little sad or down - but i have God to help me and a new meaning and pupose in life-
In life you might get hurt by a church or someone who calls themselves christian but dont let that get to you - people will make mistakes,hurt you, and confuse you- but God loves you and he will be there when you call out to him- remember christianity is about God not about church or the people in church- keep your eyes on God and not on what people due or say- you got questions ask God/ you want answers read the word of God- 
BattleCry was a great experience for me,I got to listen to christian music chill wit friends and have a closer relashionship with God-  i really enjoyed when the giants player Tiresse came out and shared a word with us. So this year i have a couple of my friends who really want to see what all the comotion is about - i really hope they enjoy it.(continental arena)-“Life is great, God will show youthe way” _______by the way no one is perfect we will all make mistakes but God is perfect————-

No, I don’t know how Noah carted all those animals on a boat. But I know a univeral flood is scientifically true. Evolution is a religion. Just like Christians, Muslims, Hindu, etc. I also have other scientifically proved information against evolution.  If you would like me to send it to you, I can.  At first, we must simply start with the formation of fossils….

A large flood is necessary for the formation of fossils in the first place. Fossils require quick and tremendous pressure to be formed. Without this, a carcass not only could not form a fossil over time but would be eaten by scavengers or destroyed by bacteria. The circulating water of a flood (along with gravity) would cause smaller organisms to naturally bury lower and more mobile organisms, with ability to temporarily avoid the flood, would be buried close to the top for this reason. Such things as fish, which are already low in the sea, would also naturally be buried low. A universal flood has been well documented historically as having occurred. Evolutionists have used fossils in rock sediments to say that simpler organisms were at the bottom of the sediment and more complex ones were at the top. They have ignored the great inconsistencies in the finds for which a flood could account but not the evolutionary process. In fact, in some strata, a tree can be seen protruding through several layers which supposedly formed over millions of years.

A lot of Christians are hypocritical, a lot of churches are not following the Bible at all, but twisting it to what they want it to say.  I can’t change them, but I know what Jesus stood for, and I know that I am striving to be a loving, forgiving, understanding, caring, and gracious person; one like Jesus was when he was on earth.

A Christian fundamentalist is by defintinition people who believe the bible is the fundamental truth from God.

They believe the Earth is only 6000 years old. That woman was literally created out of a rib of a man. They don’t believe in evolution.

The Bible is either the exact word of god or it isn’t the word of God at all.

please stop calling christians “christian fundamentalists.”  you are misleading people into thinking that “christian fundamentalism” is a sect of christianity.  it is not.  “fundamentalist” basically means that they believe it is true.  any christian is by definition a fundamentalist.  whenever a christian says something you don’t like, you call them a fundamentalist because you think that makes them sound crazy.  hillary clinton is a christian.  is she a fundamentalist?  you people use this against all protestants, and you don’t know what you are saying.  is tina turner a buddhist fundamentalist?  the answer is YES.  but nobody calls her that.  just call them what they are—what over 80% of the country is:  christian.

I just wanted to say that this article is quite correct, as I was a member of Battlecry up until recently. Teen Mania Ministries caught me at a time in my life when I was very depressed. My parents had just gotten divorced, a good friend of mine died, and I was at a loss as to who I was, where I was going, what I wanted out of life. As such, it was easy for this insecurity to be exploited by Ron Luce and his movement. I felt that I was part of the solution, and that anyone who disagreed was the problem….including friends and family. I was there at many Battlecry rallies, in fact the last one I attended was last year in Detroit. But little by little, I began to think about the claims my ministry had made about the state of America. I began to think about what many of the counter-protests at our rallies were saying. And I began to think a lot about the Bible, Christianity and religion in general. I foolishly brought up my concerns at the Honor Academy , and my Youth Pastor said the problem was that I was thinking too much. Those were his words exactly. Soon after I walked away from Teen Mania and religion forever.

To those of you who are under the slick counter-pop culture marketing of Battlecry, I say this: You ARE your own person. You have a brain that is yours and yours alone. Battlecry blames pop culture for brainwashing you, when they wish to do the same. Don’t be a slave to pop culture or fashion, but don’t be a sheep for Battlecry. You are an individual! Love yourself!

Ethan, you refer to evolution as “the inept, scientifically bankrupt fairy tail of evolution.” yet you are the one trying to uphold a story about two naked people in some celestial garden with a TALKING SNAKE, as well as a story of a man who somehow managed to cart all 1,250,000 animal species onto a rickety boat. Also, he ran aground once, yet was somehow able to drop all the marsupials off in Australia, all the lemurs in Madagascar, all the Komodo dragons in Indonesia, etc.

If evolution was “scientifically bankrupt” as you say, it would not have the OVERWHELMING majority of scientists accepting and endorsing it. And yes, I’m familiar with Darwin’s Black Box. Michael J Behe’s book was resoundingly laughed at and panned by some of the most prominent members of the scientific community for it’s poor fact-checking and the fact that it, like most creationist books, has it’s conclusion already drawn before it delves into any biological “studies”. This is what separates true scientists from psuedo-scientists like these American intelligent design advocates.

RAE, Les, Erik, others? I recommend you check out and read a book called “More than a Carpenter” by Josh McDowell. It may answer a lot of your questions about “EVIDENCE” and “FACTS”, as RAE puts it. I recommend “Darwin’s Black Box” by Micheal J. Behe and “In the Beginning: Compelling evidence for Creation and the Flood” by Walt D. Brown PhD, for those of you who insist on believing, in your inept, scientifically bankrupt fairy tail of evolution.

First off, Les, I have to say thanks for putting a smile on my face. I don’t have kids!!! lol. As for what you were saying. My parents gave me a choice. True, I am homeschooled, and I do use a lot of Christian curriculum, but that is by choice, as I’m allowed to choose my curriculum. I have ALWAYS had free choice in this matter. My parents, although Christians, don’t attend church and don’t expect me to either if I don’t want to. I picked my own church. I CHOSE my relationship with God. No one has forced that on me. And believe me I’ve read my share of books and watched my share of documentaries…how bout you? Have you heard of Josh McDowell? You might want to read his book, Evidence that Demands a Verdict.

As for you, erik, what’s the difference in the play dough coming to life and forming itself over eons into a masterpiece than evolution’s claims? Not a whole lot. About the different church denominations…all I can say is Christian’s aren’t perfect. And not ALL Christians are sincere. There are going to be people who are going to come into the church and cause splits. I go to a Baptist church, but I’ll be the first to tell you that we are NO better than any other denomination. It’s all in the heart and if Jesus is Lord in your life, not what church you go to.
Have a great day!
CG4J

....and RAE and I didn’t disagree either cowgirl, he was just chiding me on getting into a pointless argument on human origin. The original point I made is that there are no “missing link”, which he later agreed with. And sorry, there is no such thing as an “evolutionist”. There are only people who accept science as fact

If Christians agree on everything, please ask yourself why is there an Episcopalian church, a Methodist church, etc.

ok, final comment

Playdough is an artificial mixture of wheat flour, water, deodorized kerosene or another petroleum distillate cowgirl, it is not an organic living mass. And furthermore, leaving it out on a desk would not cause it to do anything other than dry up. Again, I “pray” that you somehow, someday understand what it is you are talking about.

Goodbye

Cowgirl… you said “True Christians don’t go on other peoples’ word. They look it up for themselves.”

This implies a book, written by someone else, or “other people’s words” as you put it.

Try thinking for yourself instead of looking it up cowgirl. Learn both sides. Your refutations of science show that you really don’t understand anything about it. That america’s education system can turn out people in the 21st century that are so clueless about the universe thay inhabit is very worrying.

Thankfully, here in the UK things are a whole lot more secular. And if someone tried to give equal weight to, lets say, the flood of yaweh and geology to explain sedimentary rocks he’s be laughed out of the classroom.

I hold with Dawkins when he says that to force a particular religious world view on a child is child abuse. To deny a child the knowledge gleaned from many centuries of science and to replace it with a tawdry, bronze age myth and tell the child “This is true” is a terrible thing to inflict on your offspring.

It’s the kids i feel for. Adults can believe what thy like as long as it harms no one. But to continue the division and ignorance by indoctrinating the next generation is surely wrong. Hampering their ability to take their place in society and limiting them to a few small groups tucked away in the centre of america.

Read some books, watch some documentaries, take a course! Stop being so selective, learn the other side of the argument. And please, let your kids have free reign. Let them take science, keep them out of faith based schools. Let them make their own mind up when they are older and have all the facts.

Les

Well, RAE and Erik, sorry I couldn’t convince y’all of anything. Really, Erik, I’m shocked you didn’t have anything to say about the play dough won’t evolve into a statue comment, ‘cause it’s true. I mean…according to your evolutionary beliefs, shouldn’t the play dough be able to come to life on its own? I’m not ridiculing you, I don’t mean that in a bad way, I’m just ridiculing evolution. And you and RAE have just proven to me that even evolutionists can’t agree on what happened. Christians can. And yes, Erik, I CAN know God is real, because my heart tells me it’s true. I have never been brainwashed at my church (I’m a junior, thanks, so I don’t go to Sunday School), any information I accept in there is stuff that I prove for myself. True Christians don’t go on other peoples’ word. They look it up for themselves. Thanks for your concern though and have an awesome day to both of y’all.
God bless.
CG4J

RAE is right, it is a pointless argument. In fact it is an argument that was settled several decades ago yet still lingers in small pockets of fundamentalist christian thought. And yes, human beings are not descended from “missing links”, notice how I put those in quotations in my last post. The term “missing link” in and of itself is outdated and no longer used. The word is “transitional fossil”

On the subject of evolution cowgirl, it’s odd how you throw “the big bang” into the equation and God’s, when Darwin’s theory says nothing about the existence or nonexistence of God. The only reason the faithful take issue with evolution is that it challenges(and destroys)the unbelievably stupid creation myth of Genesis. This is what I find so astounding about the fundamentalist christian groups in America who make videos like the one you posted. These fools are so set on gathering all the bogus information and claims made by psuedo-scientists that they can, are so focused on disproving what has been universal regarded as an established scientific fact, that NO ONE seems to want to wake up and say “Wait a minute….these people are trying to convince us that the entire human race are the offspring of a naked man and his naked ‘sister’ who was created from his rib and who both lived in some silly garden with a talking snake!”

And as for “knowing God”. I’m sorry cowgirl, you don’t know God is real. You believe it, and there is a difference between knowing and between belief. And like RAE, this conversation has reached its zenith with me, and I will be on my way.

Erik, I think you’re the one in Lala land here. Think about it. Where do y’all trace the earth from?? Hmm. A big bang. It is impossible for life forms to come from nothing, isn’t it? They HAD to come from somewhere and that had to be God. You either believe it or you don’t. I think it really is like what RAE said. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I see a question that the atheists have asked a lot of Christians on here. “Oh yeah? Well where did God come from?” I can’t explain that. I don’t know. But tell me…where did the big bang come from? How was there a universe if no one created it? I hate to break it to ya, but you leave playdough on a table it’s not going to evolve over time into a magnificent sculpture, is it? That’s basically the claims you make. I’m not claiming to know everything, but I know that God is real. You believe it or you don’t.

Cowgirl, again, for some reason creationists collectively shut their eyes and put their fingers in their ears and say “Lalalalala, I’m not listening. Lalalalala, I’m not looking” when they are confronted with the evidence for so-called “missing links”.

There are THOUSANDS of transitional hominid fossils that have been discovered, yet the intelligent design proponents for some reason try to ignore nearly 100 years worth of research in paleo-anthropology and primatology and say that these intermediate fossils do not exist when they are right there in plain sight.

Here’s Australopithecus Boisei
http://www.skullsunlimited.com/graphics/bh-015-lg.jpg

Here’s Homo Habilis
http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/891/20152901.JPG

Let’s put things in the modern perspective, here’s a gorilla skull
http://australianmuseum.net.au/human_evolution/images/gorilla_skull_jaw_front.jpg

Now here is a human skull
http://www.biovere.com/cart/images/real_bone_human_skull_male_s.jpg

So is it coincidental that both skulls essentially have the same general configuration? The same forward facing binocular eye sockets? The same general layout of the mandible and dental pattern? In looking at the hands of both species, why do they both have seemingly the same pentadactyly shape and function?

RAE, I can’t tell you how much I appreciated that comment. You and I will probably never agree. But i liked what you said about I had a RIGHT to believe. And I have to completely say the same thing for you. But please…you do have to at least acknowledge that the histories in the Bible are correct. I’m not talking about the creation, I know in my heart that is real, and I wish that you did too, but I’m talking about the historical stuff. In Mark chapter 13, verse 14, it says, “‘So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not’ (let the reader understand), ‘then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.’” That’s Jesus talking, all except for the part in parentheses where it says “(let the reader understand)”. That already happened. At one point in time, the Romans came into the temple and sacrificed a pig (which was an unclean animal to the Jews) on the altar of the temple to one of their gods. And when it did a lot of the jewish people that believed in Jesus left for the mountains just like the Word says. That happened, it is historically proven. If that much was true, doesn’t that mean that the rest is too? I know you’re gonna say no to that, but PLEASE consider it. If that much is historically proven, how about the rest? I don’t mean to offend you with this, I’m just asking you to think about that. This is part of a bunch of stuff that convinced me the Bible is true, word for word.

To Les…I have one question for you…why are you so bitter? What did Christians ever do to you that made you so incredibly angry? You sound like you’re ready to start exterminating us! A lot of that is false. Christians DON’T blow people up in the name of Jesus Christ, at least not true ones. I just would like to know that, I don’t mean it in a rude way.

Erik…I’m gonna take one of your statements and ask you a question about it.  “Again cowgirl, its clear to see you are getting your information from laughable sources. I guess creationists have it in their heads that in evolution when species evolve, the class, family or order of species they originated from disappears entirely.” In that case…where are the missing links between the apes and humans? According to the evolutionists…if that’s true, and the apes are still here. Where are the missing links?

Have a great day, y’all!
CG4J

Many times we are confronted with a plaintive “Why can’t we agree to disagree and respect each others points of view?” I will try to explain my own personal stance here. Enough is enough! It’s time to draw that line in the sand. For too long, for millennia, since man first started to form societies we have had our view of the universe tainted with religion. To say that theists have had a fair crack at the whip would be understatement in the extreme. Theistic dogma has caused more misery, more wars, more suppression and held back the discovery of the universe we inhabit than any other invention. From the indoctrination of generations of innocent, inquiring children in the home, through schools and their mandatory acts of worship of fictitious, vengeful gods, the foul distortions introduced by the likes of the Dover School Board, the theft of a woman’s right to control of her own body, the intrusion of a false morality upon our daily lives and the stifling of science. All these things must stop! It is no longer a matter of respect, of tolerance or of agreeing to disagree. The stakes are far too high. No! You cannot blow people up in the name of your mythical being. No! You cannot kill doctors who choose to help women regain control of their lives. No! You cannot divert money that should be healing the sick to spend on your costumes and buildings. No! You cannot tell me how to think anymore. No! You cannot claim that your damn stupid, lame, small minded little creation myth has equal value to Darwin’s evolution and modern cosmology. The time has come to leave the nursery, cast off these childish, dangerous stories and grow up! Religion has sapped enough of mans resources. Time, money, effort, emotion and whole damned races have been swallowed up by these deluded zealots. Every theist that EVER went into battle always had a god on their side. Every poor sap who worked till they dropped was promised their reward after their death. The crippled, the sick, the outcast and the insane have turned to religion and been rewarded with nothing except vacuous empty promises. It’s time to stop the madness. It’s time to confront this awful cancer, this creeping, insidious lie. It’s time to free humanity from the shackles of the past. from the guilt. from the original sin. from the inferiority. It’s time to stop the killing. The gang mentality. Them and us. The threats of heaven, the lure of hell, the hell of the faithful. Theists, you’ve had your chance. You’ve had millennia of chances. Look at the planet now. Is it better for religion or does the worlds major human conflicts have their very basis in religion. Theism is a mind numbing death shroud for humanity. It can not be allowed to continue. We have to stop lying to our children. To ourselves. This is why I leap in and denounce theists wherever I find them. If I upset a few simpletons who cannot think outside their late bronze age shackles then so be it. But your not going to poison this race forever. If you theists have your way you will be the end as you always predicted. Self fulfilling prophecy. I will do my level best to rid my race of this handicap. The future of man lies in the stars. Our Earth is finite, eventually our sun will leave the main sequence and go red giant. If we’re not out of here by then we, as a race. are doomed. It is science that is our route to our true home in the universe. You can’t pray your way out of this one.

“Another point I want to make to both you and Erik is if humans were descended from apes, why do we still have all the apes that exist today?”

Again cowgirl, its clear to see you are getting your information from laughable sources. I guess creationists have it in their heads that in evolution when species evolve, the class, family or order of species they originated from disappears entirely. Is that what you’re getting at? Because I can tell you that in evolutionary studies, there is no amount of research that has EVER made that claim.

Amphibians developed from lobe-fin fishes in the mid to late Devonian. Fishes are still aplenty, as are amphibians. Reptiles, in turn, evolved from terrestrial amphibians which developed hardened skin and egg shells to cope with a terrestrial habitat. But according to proponents of creationism, apparently amphibians should cease to exist because certain families branched off into reptiles. Silly, silly logic.

Ursines, canines and pinnipeds(bears, dogs and seals) all share a common carnivore ancestry. But the creationist views this as a gap in evolution’s logic, as they one or more of those three must cease to exist in order for the other to?

And finally cowgirl, my country has “gotten away from God”. We no longer let religion infringe upon individual lives. We no longer let it have sway in government the way it used to. We no longer let it dictate what we teach in public education. Sadly, this is not the case in the United States, which I have lived in for two years. You say those were the ideals and the values your country was based upon. Correct me if I’m wrong, but do you not have a separation of church and state? If America was meant to be a Christian nation, why did Thomas Jefferson author the First Amendment? Why did Thomas Paine, the godfather of your revolution against the English make scathing attacks upon organized religion and church interference in Common Sense, the American manifesto? I hope you know what works I’m talking about, right?

OUCH! Seems like my last comment/video seemed to upset you guys a bit. About your video, Mr. Mayfield…I watched it and found it interesting. I do have one question…I don’t know if you know enough about the people who made that video to know, but do atheists believe in absolute truths? (That is, “truth is truth is truth” opposed to “well that may be true for you but it’s not for me”.) If not…how do you know they’re not stretching the truth? I don’t know about you, but for me two plus two don’t equal three. Another point I want to make to both you and Erik is if humans were descended from apes, why do we still have all the apes that exist today?

To you, Erik, if you lived in America you would see how far from God our country has become. I LOVE this country, and I am extremely blessed to live here, but we’ve strayed really far from the truths that our country was founded on. It’s sad, but I still have hope that we can change that. ALSO…I’d like to address this statement you made. “Who is teaching these kids and where the hell did they get a degree?” Sir, we can all talk big online, but I’d rather you didn’t say anything to me if you can’t do it without swearing…I’m not saying I’m perfect because I’m SO far from that and I slip and say words I shouldn’t more often than I’d like to admit, but I’d appreciate it if you wouldn’t try to talk big online. That’s a huge pet peeve of mine. It’s very immature.

Thanks, guys, for your input. I appreciate hearing things from the other side. God bless!
CG4J

Cowgirl4Jesus writes “ALSO…if evolution is real, why did the evolving stop? I mean…according to evolution’s standards…we shoudl still be changing, right?”

Wow, is education in America THIS bad? Who is teaching these kids and where the hell did they get a degree? Evolution does not “stop” cowgirl, it is simple adaptive change to a changing enviornment. Despite what these imbecile fundamentalist groups are telling you, evolutionary changes happen over a LONG period. Changes do not happen instantly.

“Scientists have said that if the earth was that old, there would probably be hundreds of feet of dust on the moon. When they walked on the moon there was only about 5 feet of dust.”

Ok, 1) who are these scientists you speak of and 2) where did you hear such embarrassing tripe about the depth of lunar dust being a clear indicator of the earth’s age?

You see cowgirl, in science, unlike religion, we don’t just go by hearsay. We don’t hear vague accounts of some phantom nameless “scientists” and think “Well, ok then”. Data and research must be indentified, analyzed, researched and caluculated. Claims must be clearly referenced.

These lies are an indicator of the senseless stranglehold that religious fundamentalists have on your country.

Cowgirl,

I’d like to suggest you watch a rebuttal to your BattleCry propaganda, then ask yourself why people who are so “righteous” and “moral” must rely on lies and misinformation to promote their ideas and criticize that which they don’t like.  Are those really the people you want to emulate or follow?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1CTWmtczn4

RAE, you still seem a little pissed off to me, but whatever. As for evidence…I think there is tons of it everywhere you look. Such as evolution claims that the earth is billions of years old. Scientists have said that if the earth was that old, there would probably be hundreds of feet of dust on the moon. When they walked on the moon there was only about 5 feet of dust. ALSO…if evolution is real, why did the evolving stop? I mean…according to evolution’s standards…we shoudl still be changing, right? Watch this video….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4JxjLhvqnc

Les is right, I wonder if the Battlecry organization and other fundamentalist christian groups realize how ridiculous they look to those of us in Europe. Battlecry actually had mission trips to Europe not too long ago, including my country(Sweden) but they canceled the program because people here are smart enough not to be swayed by a bunch of clueless, small town American teens preaching fairy tales.

Mr. Luce is fond of bashing my country for our tolerance of homosexuals and looser sexual mores. Funny how he doesn’t address how, in addition to having one of the most atheistic populations in the world, we have some of lowest crime, STD and teen pregnancy rates compared to the staggering amounts of the so-called Christian nation of America.

“Oh, and please take a look at what Wikipedia has to say about the meaning of Blitzkrieg. It’s not a Nazi thing. It’s a German term.”

It means “Lightning War” and nothing more. Used for their mechanised, fast advance using air strikes to presage the tanks and motorised troops. First used in the Spanish civil war…  you got to remember things were trench bound and horseback led up until then. Use the Somme as a previous reference point. “Blitzkrieg” was a whole new awful advance… But very effective. The Stuka dive bomber aircraft is the embodiment of this style of warfare at the time. Only a single bomb, one aircraft, but a screaming siren attached that howled during it’s dive. The main impact was the sound, the speed and then the mechanised armour folowing on from behind. From this position in the 21st century we can only glimpse a tiny fragment of the fear that the German forces could inflict with their new invention of “Blitzkrieg”.

You strange, backward, theist colonials are so very odd when viewed from this side of the Atlantic. You are willing to hinder your children with creationism and limit their educations by weighing them down with late bronze age dogma. Yet you make use of the products of the scientific method you say cannot be right about geology, evolution, genetics, palaeontology, cosmology, history ect. ect. ect.
Your all happy to use computers that use quantum physics to work, burn oil that is made from life from eons before your myth even reckons the universe existed. You gaze upon stars whose light has been travelling for millions of years and bask in the sunlight from our own star that has been burning for far, far longer than your tawdry little creation myth allows for.
How do you reconcile these things? Would you really rather hogtie your kids to this narrow, sad, deficient view of the cosmos than allow them free reign to explore the wonderful, beautiful universe they inhabit?
I’m don’t give a monkey’s about you, it’s your kids i am sorry for. They will not thank you when they realise the lies, the deceit and the blinkers you saddled them with.

http://richarddawkinsfoundation.org/foundation,growingUpDVD

Les

Rob:

“The only father I answer to, Ethan, is MY father….NOT some invisible, imaginary being from ancient Hebrew legend who lives up in the sky and throws hissy fits over homosexuals and people who don’t vote republican. There is NO tangible evidence. There is none for Yahweh, none for Zeus, none for Shiva, none for Ra, none for Wotan, none for any of these anthropomorphic characters that men of ancient times simply concocted out of their own imaginations to give meaning to the world around and the life they lead.”

-There you go again. Who are you trying to convince? Certainly not me. *Yawn.*

Hissy fit at people who don’t vote republican? I have to say I’ve never pictured God as a lobbyist before. 

“Question: If your “stuff” is mostly cherry-picked from a book of fables, wishful thinking, fantasies, unsupportable assumptions, glib opinions, emotional crutches, and other assorted claptrap, DOES IT REALLY MATTER HOW WELL YOU KNOW IT?”

-That’s odd. I’ve never seen any of that in the Bible. Nor have I ever felt the slightest need for any “emotional crutches, and other assorted claptrap”. Yes, yes, I know. I’m diluted and brainwashed. Don’t tell me. I GET it already. Sheesh, you people need to come up with a new line.

Mr. Mayfield:

“No Ethan, I don’t need to see you whimper or grovel. And I frankly don’t care if you continue to delude yourself with a non-existent deity or not.  JUST ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION!  I’ve asked it 3 times now and you’ve ignored it every time.”

 
“Quoting an unknown, “Since logic, reason, and historical precision play no part in Christianity, unfortunately, these disciplines are useless in discussions with Christians.”

-Another example of your ignorance. What you said is completely false. There is a wealth of logic, reason, and historical precision behind Christianity and the Bible. I would tell you about it all, but talking to you about anything is a waste of time. Futile.

“Human progress has been stunted beyond measure because of the likes of 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.”

- Yeah if not for 1 Corinthians, we’d have explored the galaxy, eliminated pollution, and discovered a cure to cancer by now, huh? lol

Once again you skilfully prove the point of these verses.

“You may think that preferable, but I’ll gladly suffer the slings and arrows of too much knowledge.  Or as Robert Ingersoll said, “Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith.”

-Unfortunately your thoughts don’t go any deeper than your stunted perception of the world.

“I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use.”

-Neither do I. That was an excellent quote from Galileo. (It’s a perfect picture of how science and faith can coexist peacefully together, btw.) Which is why I apply those three values to my faith regularly. I’d give you specific examples but with you that would be an utter waste of time. Futile.

I’m actually 24, cowgirl, but yeah I see what you’re saying.

Gosh, RAE, calm down just a bit. As for you, Rob, once again, all I have to say is go to Battle Cry and try it out for yourself. Please don’t tell me about the sessions they have at Acquire the Fire, b/c I’ve been there and you haven’t, and I think I’d know. The session of “the pig pen” was referring to the parable of the Prodigal Son, and NOT to nonbelievers. the point he was making was the fact that the prodigal son didn’t stay IN the pig pen feeding pigs, he got out of there and did something about it. That’s the point Ron Luce was making. Get your facts straight, Rob, before you try and tell everyone how it is. Believe me, I know. Have a great day.

Quoting Etiainen, “The first is Matthew 5:17 further on it talks about why the law of the pharisees mustnt be kept but why righteousness must be - this is the difference between the 10 commandments and some of the other law books in the bible…”

It takes a special type of DUUUUHHHH to answer my question WITH my question, and NOTHING more.  I ask how Matthew 5:17-19 can be reconciled with the cherry-picking that Ethan Baker (and most Christians) do when it comes to obeying the laws and Etiainen cites what?  Yep, Matthew 5:17!

Let me guess, if asked a math question like, if x+3=4, then what does x equal, your answer would be what?  X?

I know there must be some overbearing need for Xians to believe that the Bible makes sense, but it’s sheer lunacy to continue to insist that Matthew 5:17-19 says anything except that Jesus came to uphold the laws.  Not just the 10 Commandments, not those and some that aren’t too bad, but ALL of them.  Even those that make your rational sensibilities squirm with disgust.  There isn’t one verse, not even a partial verse that suggests, much less explicitly states otherwise.

I can only hope that you’re not referring to the Leviticus, Exodus and Deuteronomy laws when you talk about “all the confusing and largely very human law systems” that you blame on the Pharisees.  Those dear Etiainen ARE “God’s laws” - you know the ones Jesus came to uphold and NOT do away with, not one jot nor tittle.

We might as well be arguing about a verse that says, “I have come to declare chocolate the greatest flavor.”  While I read that and say to myself, “Hmmm, Jesus really thinks chocolate is best,” you’d be telling me that he prefers vanilla.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad that Christians are such HUGE hypocrites when it comes to the Bible.  I’m ecstatic that there has been an Enlightenment and moderating influence on their “interpretations.”  It is far greater that they ignore the LAWS OF GOD that command them to kill adulterers, witches, sabbath workers and unruly children.  But at least have the decency to admit that you are DEFYING THE “WORD OF GOD” because you find it reprehensible, vile and/or abhorrent.  Don’t be so damn intellectually dishonest and pretend that it says white when it says black.

Etiainen, your piss-poor attempt at giving a pass to the allowed practice of slavery in the Bible is almost as laughable as your pseudo-intellectual ranting.

“However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46)”

Hmmmm, doesn’t quite sound like a contract between two families as you put it. Sounds more like owning and treating human beings like livestock in a manner that died out in this country only relatively recently.

Let’s take a look at the lovely practice of selling your own flesh and blood daughter into sexual servitude shall we?

“When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are.  If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again.  But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her.  And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter.  If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife.  If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.  (Exodus 21:7-11)”

Wow…..so what’s that about Etiainen? Let me guess…..that whole passage right there has been “misunderstood” or “taken out of context”, right?

Hahaha dammit forgot the verses!

The first is Matthew 5:17 further on it talks about why the law of the pharisees mustnt be kept but why righteousness must be - this is the difference between the 10 commandments and some of the other law books in the bible (as shared by the torah)
The second is Mark 12:29-31

“Even with the insultingly simplified Message Bible, you’ve never answered my question - which “laws” will you keep, which will you throw out?”

This is just ONE of the things I’ve chuckled at while reading through these comments - Its sort of a hilarious humanist “im acting intellectual” way of arguing which (before I did my research) used to intimidate me.

Lets get into culture and context a bit shall we? The Pharisees had over 600 laws on how to keep the 10 commandments, Christ Himself said that He had not come to ‘throw out’ the TEN COMMANDMENTS, but to bring them back to exactly what they were - TEN commandments. Checkout:  for this - its clear that Christ came to back up the 10 commandments (most notably the first 2:  ) but take out all the confusing and largely very human law systems that the pharisees had tried to create - eventually, this is partly the reason for His death (if we look at it in human terms)

So there’s your answer

Now guys, let me be honest here, almost everyone on this supposed ‘truthdig’ website (hilariously named with a heavy hint of irony) has such a poor knowledge of theology its unreal! One person claims to have studied Christianity all his life but misses the mark on almost all his points, another lists a whole load of ‘problematic’ verses which (if only someone did their research) could be discounted with the most basic knowledge of translation and cultral context. An example? Take the ‘slavery’ verse he/she points out. Slavery was infact a contract set up between two volunteers that often lasted between 3 and 7 years. It was one way a person could pay back extreme debt (economically or morally speaking) a person would be clothed, fed like a family member and live with the family or with their own (it was their choice) They would be treated humanely and would be more like an unpaid servant. When the agreed debt was paid, the ‘slave’ would be released. Infact, a law was even bought in to help these people get back on their feet again because often they were treated so well, they didnt want to leave! Many became paid servants of the families.

See? Just that tiny little bit of knowledge and suddenly we see that things arent quite so bad afterall.

The fact is, is that you guys are ranting on about this Battlecry ‘propaganda’ whilst failing to realise you yourselves are the victims of the biggest lie possible! This whole Humanism thing is based on sheer ignorance and a large amount of snobbery (again, ironically)

Battlecry sites MTV as one of the things its contradicting. When the owner of MTV was asked how it felt to influence a generation he replied “we dont influence them, we OWN them” I for one will fight and fight and fight until my kids can grow up in a world that wont brainwash them at every corner (I use the word ‘fight’ there to denote spiritual battle there before people whine, ignorant of metaphore, that I’m a nazi)

Peace out guys

Sorry if I sound a bit sarcastic - I just wish people would actually research before they claim to know something on an issue which they are sadly ignorant of

cowgirl, this is an open forum, we are free to debate as we wish. This is an exchange of ideas, albeit a terse one. If you can’t take the heat, the kitchen door is over there…..

“Wow isn’t that fun to go be a knowitall and rip someone down. I’m a Christian. Nobody said I have to be a doormat.”

Many christians, particularly those of Ron Luce’s ilk, and a few of the people who have replied here are fond of using those that may disagree with them like doormats as well. We’re constantly threatened with hellfire by your flock, mocked, looked down upon and blamed for the supposed ills that this generation is facing. Luce has a segment during one of his Battlecry rallies called “the pigpen” in which he has teen actors standing in an actual pigpen with real pigs and acting out “sinful” practices like talking on a cellphone and drinking a beer. Luce is saying, in plain black and white, that if you’re not an evangelical born again….you are a pig. Wow, what warm christian love right there.

“Seems like everyone on here has told you repeatedly…Ms. Taylor DOESN’T have her facts straight.”

It’s funny how we have been constantly hearing that. Yet I have read several articles about Battlecry from various authors, some of whom consider themselves believers, who detail the EXACT same aspects of what goes on at these propaganda campaigns. Battlecry came to San Francisco and held a protest right across the street from where I work, so I was compelled to check it out for myself. Taylor admittedly isn’t that great of a writer. She writes in a very emotion-based knee-jerk reactionary way, and I definitely don’t agree with a lot of the things she stands for, but comparing her articles to others I read it seems she’s pretty much on the money here.

wow guys!! Mark Mayfield and Rob - Aren’t you a little ashamed of yourself arguing with people who are mostly teenagers?? Wow isn’t that fun to go be a knowitall and rip someone down. I’m a Christian. Nobody said I have to be a doormat. Why don’t you guys just grow up?? Seems like everyone on here has told you repeatedly…Ms. Taylor DOESN’T have her facts straight. And if you guys know so much maybe you should know enough to get both sides of the story?!? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Good job, Ethan Baker and all the rest of you guys! You guys know your stuff!
God bless.

No Ethan, I don’t need to see you whimper or grovel. And I frankly don’t care if you continue to delude yourself with a non-existent deity or not.  JUST ANSWER A SIMPLE QUESTION!  I’ve asked it 3 times now and you’ve ignored it every time.

How ironic that you claim what I said made no sense when most of what I was doing was quoting YOUR Bible.  I agree - it MAKES NO SENSE!  I’ve been trying to get you to explain it, but all you do is throw out 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.  That’s completely meaningless.  Quoting an unknown, “Since logic, reason, and historical precision play no part in Christianity, unfortunately, these disciplines are useless in discussions with Christians.”  You’ve proven that beyond ANY doubt.

Every faith thinks they’re god is greater than human knowledge; every faith thinks theirs makes sense only to those who believe; every faith feels persecuted for their belief; every faith is mostly awash in people who are NOT “the brightest and the best.”  And to the eternal detriment of human society, every faith has, and always will, seek to say that their deity has all the answers and man should look no further than the “good book” for wisdom.

Human progress has been stunted beyond measure because of the likes of 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.  You may think that preferable, but I’ll gladly suffer the slings and arrows of too much knowledge.  Or as Robert Ingersoll said, “Give me the storm and tempest of thought and action, rather than the dead calm of ignorance and faith.”

Or to quote Galileo Galilei, “I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use.”  And if I should meet a god after I die and find this to be otherwise, I’ll calmly spit in his eye and request the escalator going down.

Ethan, you like many other believers attempt to reassure yourselves of God’s existence by having this notion that atheists and agnostics deep down know that God really exists, they just choose to say otherwise for selfish reasons of rebellion.

It reminds of when I was little and kids around me started telling me that Santa Claus wasn’t real, and I protested defiantly and chastised them with the warnings of “he sees you when you’re sleeping, he knows when you’re awake”. I wanted it be true, so I tried to convince myself that they knew it was true but were just being “rebellious”.

‘If your looking for a Christian who will bow helplessly and whimper before the holes you try poke in his faith, before your superior knowledge of the way the “real” world works, and grovel for forgiveness for believing in such nonsense, then you can keep on looking.’

I have never in my life come across that type of Christian. The type of Christians I usually run into are the token pious kind who smile uncomfortably, look around awkwardly, repeat parrot talking points of “God loves you!” or “Jesus is lord!”, recommend Bible passages or use circular logic when they come across someone who challenges their ideals and beliefs. Seldom have I come across the kind you describe, and to be honest I’d be pretty disappointed if I did meet one :-p

The only father I answer to, Ethan, is MY father….NOT some invisible, imaginary being from ancient Hebrew legend who lives up in the sky and throws hissy fits over homosexuals and people who don’t vote republican. There is NO tangible evidence. There is none for Yahweh, none for Zeus, none for Shiva, none for Ra, none for Wotan, none for any of these anthropomorphic characters that men of ancient times simply concocted out of their own imaginations to give meaning to the world around and the life they lead.

Nothing you ever say makes any sense Mr. Mayfield.

And you can stuff it, Rob. I’ve heard it all before and I just got through listening to all this tired “God is fake” stuff from RAE. The second I see ridiculous stuff like you said, I just let out a big yawn. If your looking for a Christian who will bow helplessly and whimper before the holes you try poke in his faith, before your superior knowledge of the way the “real” world works, and grovel for forgiveness for believing in such nonsense, then you can keep on looking. I will NEVER turn away from God or my faith. He exists, he’s real, active in the world, and everyone including you still have to answer to him. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can shed this no-God fantasy world you’ve created around yourself.

Rob, here’s the problem: Your atheism is just pretend. That’s right…it’s a facade. Merely a childish temper tantrum thrown because you don’t want to do what daddy (God) tells you to. “I don’t have to answer to nobody!!” you say. You’re just going to throw a screaming fit. Never mind that he loves you. It’s your way or the highway because you want what you want and ain’t nobody gonna tell you otherwise. By desperately trying to assure yourself that God isn’t real, you think you can escape the consequences of his existence.

To put it in the words of Mr. Mayfield, if you still want to blow a trumpet for “God is pretend” go right ahead.  It will make just as much of a difference in this world as if you stood outside your house and literally blew a trumpet.  You’ll likely annoy some people, possibly delight some people too.  But in the end, it’s just noise.

Remember 1 Corinthians 1:18-25? Mr. Mayfield, Rob? Yeah, you love it don’t ya? I’ve had enough of your so-called knowledge.

Mark Mayfield is right, the so-called “Good Book” has been cherry-picked throughout history. Very few people on either side of spectrum live by it’s principles wholly. Of course, Christians are fond of stating that they essentially “own the rights” to morality and are the only ones capable of erecting a moral society. The problem is there book is chock full of enough violence, genocide, torture, sexual perversion and shocking images to make Quentin Tarantino blush.

Why aren’t Battlecry kids proclaiming that slavery is still ok? Why aren’t Battlecry kids stoning people to death for working on the Sabbath? Why aren’t they beating their brethren who talk back to their parents? Christianity is supposedly charitable right? Why doesn’t Ron Luce have any Battlecry soup kitchens or homeless shelters and actually put his kids to work doing something other than “RA RA JESUS!” rallies?

Ethan, here’s the problem: Your god is just pretend. That’s right….he’s not real. Merely a fictional character erected by the basic human desire to put meaning into the world and existence. He is no more real than the gods that the Hindu worships, or the
“thetan” the Scientologist believes resides within him.

This idea of a supreme being that has bestowed this bizarre and challenging situation upon his creations(humans) in which they must beg forgiveness for human nature(what you refer to “sin”), must read from a book he supposedly authored(with the help of various cadres of Roman politicians and Hebrew prelates)and must worship the image of a crucified martyr figure on a cross,.......it just doesn’t hold the weight it used to in previous centuries.

Now, onto to Battlecry. Why does the creator of the universe need such a silly franchise to get his point across? “And Thou shalt charge $15.95 for thine blessed Battlecry red flag t-shirts at all blessed venues”? You say Battlecry kids aren’t being brainwashed. Well, the ones I came across in San Francisco certainly had a startling lack of depth and critical-thinking ability. I didn’t come up to these kids and start insulting them and ridiculing them, but I found very little had anything else to say except for the parrot phrases of “I love Jesus!” or “I’m here to make a stand for my generation!”. I wonder if most even knew WHY they were there in the first place of if they had even read a Bible from start to finish. The whole thing to me seemed like some giant pep rally with no real point, with kids merely regurgitating talking points from their youth pastors and from Battlecry officials.

“The threat that America’s violent, godless, sex-obsessed culture poses to teens is not a phantom. It is very real and very dangerous.”

lol, I certainly came out of it ok. Violence in American media is a legitimate concern, although it pales to the brutal images of the Old and New Testament. As far as sex-obsessed, this nation has the collective mentality of a giggling, immature 5 year old. The whole country gasped and cried out in outrage when Janet Jackson’s nipple slipped out during the Superbowl yet seemed to be complacent on the very real horrors that were and still are occurring in Iraq. Thanks to the puritanical settlers of this country, we have inherited a culture which treats sex in the greatest of two extremes with no middle ground whatsoever.

How surprising is it that Scandinavian countries such as Sweden, whom Ron Luce is fond of bashing, have a staggeringly high proportion of atheists and secularists, yet have some of the lowest teen pregnancy, STD, murder and yes, abortion rates of anywhere in the developed world?

Well gosh darn Ethan, I guess I better go git me sum edumacation so I’s can understand that there Bible better.  This from somebody who needs to use The Message to understand the “old-fashioned” Bible.

Even with the insultingly simplified Message Bible, you’ve never answered my question - which “laws” will you keep, which will you throw out?  YOUR Bible states bluntly, “Don’t suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures— either God’s Law or the Prophets. I’m not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. God’s Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God’s Law will be alive and working. Trivialize even the smallest item in God’s Law and you will only have trivialized yourself.”
Matthew 5:17-19

Translation - Ethan trivialized himself by claiming that God’s laws are now not only trivial, but invalid.  Shame on you!

I know you’re keeping Exodus 20 - the “Ten Commandments.”  Are you keeping the other laws or not?  If so, start killing gays, adulterers, unruly children and witches.  If not, how do you presume to know the will of Christ as to which laws he’s fulfilled?  If he HAS fulfilled them all by his death on the cross, then the 10 Cs are fulfilled as well, no?  Wriggle off THAT hook.

What’s most laughable is your continuing insistence on quoting 1 Corinhians 1:18-25.  As I’ve said before, Christians are great at cherry-picking.  Look just a mere one verse later in 1 C 1:26 - “Take a good look, friends, at who you were when you got called into this life. I don’t see many of ‘the brightest and the best’ among you…”  I concur.

HA!!  You’ve just been called stupid by your own god! “The brightest and the best” don’t get called often because, well, they’re bright, ie, not stupid enough to believe this crap.

Lastly, this “devil” will continue to quote scripture, and it’s your very own Message version -“You’re familiar with the command to the ancients, ‘Do not murder.’ I’m telling you that anyone who is so much as angry with a brother or sister is guilty of murder. Carelessly call a brother ‘idiot!’ and you just might find yourself hauled into court. Thoughtlessly yell ‘stupid!’ at a sister and you are on the brink of hellfire. The simple moral fact is that words kill.” Matthew 5:21-22

Then to quote the gospel of Ethan Baker - “You think you are wise, Mr. Mayfield, but in reality you’re just a fool.”  Now that you’ve “murdered” me, should you not likewise be put to death?

Oh, and if you still want to “blow a trumpet for God” go right ahead.  It will make just as much of a difference in this world as if you stood outside your house and literally blew a trumpet.  You’ll likely annoy some people, possiby delight some people too.  But in the end, it’s just noise.

Hi Candyce. I’m familiar with the translation of the Corinthians verses that you presented. The NIV is the version I grew up with. However, I felt that the language in that translation was too old-fashioned (I say that with all due respect) for a person like Mr. Mayfield to understand the full meaning of. I felt this situation required a more forceful translation in contemporary language.

The version of the Bible that I got my wording from is The Message version. It is also the “real thing.” I like The Message because it’s wording more closely resembles the common everyday type speech that most of the Bible was originally written in (translated from the Greek, Aramaic, Hebrew, etc of course). It closely resembles the vernacular the people who wrote the Bible would have likely written in if they had been writing in English.

As for respectability, I think the translator’s vision for The Message is very respectable. His translation has allowed me to connect with God’s word on a more intimate level because of its down-to-earth and engaging language.

To Rob:

“Any god or spirit is only as real as the believer wants it to be. Proclaiming the divine mandate and infallible nature of a god is subjective, as someone else may worship a different god altogether or none at all.

Battlecry is pushing teens to make their religion not personal, but dominating. This movement aims for a theocracy under the guise of saving teens from this phantom threat their generation supposedly faces.”

The threat that America’s violent, godless, sex-obsessed culture poses to teens is not a phantom. It is very real and very dangerous. However, the supposed push for a theocracy and the “brainwashing” that you and your ilk rant about IS a phantom. A figment of the imagination sprung from the minds of fanatical, christaphobic bigots.

Come to think of it, I’ve written a comic strip making fun of people that say the kind of kooky things that you do. I haven’t posted it online yet but I hope to greatly annoy a few liberals when I do get it up.

Any god or spirit is only as real as the believer wants it to be. Proclaiming the divine mandate and infallible nature of a god is subjective, as someone else may worship a different god altogether or none at all.

Battlecry is pushing teens to make their religion not personal, but dominating. This movement aims for a theocracy under the guise of saving teens from this phantom threat their generation supposedly faces.

First of all…Ethan Baker, what version of the bible are you using that actually uses the term “crackpots”? That was good for a laugh. To clear that up and bring respectability back to those verses, here’s the real thing (from the new international version):

1 Corinthians 1:18-25- For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
  “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
    the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

That said, I really just want to say that I do not consider myself Christian. I grew up in a Christian family, but I myself am not Christian because I do not lead a Christ-like life, nor do I try to, something I may one day pay dearly for unless I change. But I do have a really hard time believing in Christianity, or any religion for that matter, because I was cursed with intelligence. I don’t mean that as a joke or sarcasm, I mean that exactly as I said it. Sometimes I feel that my logical and analytical nature keeps me from accepting things that don’t make sense to me now. But that isn’t to say I disbelieve. There is SO MUCH we don’t know about the world and what lays outside our galaxy, how we got here, and where we’ll go. It’s completely ignorant for anyone to think they KNOW anything. Years ago people KNEW the world is flat. Look around. Does it look round? Does common sense indicate that the Earth you’re standing on is curved? So much is unexplained and unknown. But one thing I do know is this. This article is full of hate. Just because you don’t agree with a group or understand them doesn’t mean you have to beat them down. The author talks about stoning, but isn’t that exactly what this article is doing? Verbally stoning a religious group. Nowhere in this article does the author ever mentioned being attacked verbally, mentally, metaphorically, spiritually, yet this article directly attacks them. So who is the unaccepting Nazi?

RAE. Sigh. Why, God, why? I just don’t understand it.

He’s probably not coming back to this forum but I just couldn’t let his post go without responding to his attacks for the benefit of others here who may have read what he said.

RAE: “Ethan Baker and I must come from completely different planets. Where he sees WHITE I see BLACK. Where he hears THE WORD, I hear nonsense.”

Really? I’m sure glad we cleared that up. lol

“Assuming for a moment there actually is a “God,” I hope Ethan realizes that he/she/it made ME and MY BRAIN and MY PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE, just as he made his own.”

No. Humans created philosophy. God only created truth. God didn’t put your philosophies into your head, RAE. It’s the other guy that did that.

“Ethan, please EXPLAIN how/why ANY “God” who purports to “love” me and wants me to “love” Him could or would possibly cause or even allow brains to exist that harbor two completely opposite views of life on this planet. Oh, I see - He’s playing a game! “I’ll give you free will and a choice, but if you make the wrong choice, I’ll burn you in Hell for all Eternity.

I’m sorry, Ethan, even if your “God” DOES exist, I want nothing to do with him if that’s His attitude towards me.”

If you make the wrong choice, I’ll burn you in Hell for all Eternity? Um…no he won’t. Where are you getting that? A life in Hell is never a fate God chooses for someone.

“There’s a line that goes “You’ve Got To Be Taught To Hate.” I believe it’s true. None of us is born hating, or loving, anyone or anything. We are TAUGHT by our society/culture what to hate and love.

Here you said yourself the society/culture teaches the philosophy we carry in life. Why do you keep saying God does it?

“Unfortunately, often what we are “taught” in school, in church, in the home, on the street is SIMPLY NOT TRUE. I’m sure Ethan doesn’t believe everything he was taught at school or at home or on the street (unless he’s a lot more stupid than I’m assuming) so WHY, I ask, does he believe what he’s taught at church without asking QUESTIONS and getting answers he can check out - that make SENSE.”

You sure assume a lot seeing as you’ve never even met me. Actually I do ask QUESTIONS, I’ve checked out the answers, and they make perfect SENSE. I’ve seen plenty of EVIDENCE, as you put it, to convince me 100% that God exists and his teachings are the best thing I could possibly base my life upon.

“You obviously have no need of “questions.” You have committed yourself, publicly, to a fantasy and you must now spend the rest of your life defending your choice… as I do mine. EXCEPT - I don’t have to prove anything…. YOU are making the claims - it’s up to YOU to PROVE THEM. And to prove them, you’ll need legitimate EVIDENCE not just EMOTIONAL, IRRATIONAL, ILLOGICAL nonsense.”

EMOTIONAL, IRRATIONAL, ILLOGICAL nonsense? As far as I can tell, that’s a pretty accurate description for your last post.
And what do you mean you don’t have to prove the validity of your choice of beliefs? You are making the claims that what I believe is false and that God creates ideas in people’s BRAINS, as you put it, that are opposed to his own commands. I think you have a lot of proving to do.
As for me, I really don’t have any desire nor do I feel the slightest bit of need to prove my choice of beliefs to anyone. I simply pass on what I’ve learned to other people, not for any self-serving purpose but only that they may have a chance to experience a life of true joy and purpose. I defend my beliefs only when the misrepresentations of angry, bitter, bigoted individuals drag other people down with them, away from the truth.

“How would you like it if your DOCTOR practised medicine according to what he/she BELIEVED, without any evidence to back it up, and prescribed for you accordingly? Even VOODOO does better than that!”

No, I have to say I wouldn’t like it if my DOCTOR did that.

what are you guys saying u know why his responds where short beacuse he does not owe u anything god the one and all mighty loves me and even you u are turning your back on him how dare you say that about god or rob he is a great man and he has helped me threw so much we are all siners we all make mistakes god can forgive us of those sins i was at the battle cry i said i want the cross i gave my life to god after you ask for forgivness you will be a new person god is great and these shows help us teens realise that and they bring us closer to god u have a right to say what you feel but i do to and i believe that hi is a great man god does love me and i love battle cry hear my battle cry! i give my all to god and i am running into the battle and i am not letting the devil have my generation never we are gods people and we will serve him not the devil who wants us to be in pain and be hurt i done with that i love god rob and even you just think about what you are saying tho for real

Do you have a minute friend?
‘Cause I’d like to tell you something
You may think nothing of it
But wait, you’re gonna love it
What if I told you I had the one true philosophy?
Would you hear me out or just turn your back and laugh at me?

God I just don’t understand
This strange creature you call man
Who thinks he lives by his own hand
But I know there’s no life away from you

-The O. C. Supertones

This song so speaks for me. Some people will simply never accept the truth so it’s no use arguing.

RAE’s words denying Christ are some of the most heartbreaking that could come from a person’s mouth. They didn’t make my angry, just sorry for him (i’m not being snide or sarcastic, just honest. please don’t misunderstand me). I sincerely hope that RAE and the dozens of others like him on this forum will one day see the truth and turn to Jesus. As countless millions will attest, it can be a joy-filled life of meaning and purpose. There’s nothing more I can do but simply leave these things in God’s hands.

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Christians communicate this life saving expose to all!

Kyle writes… “...being radical is what being christian is all about standing out and praising the lord with everything you have and bringing as many people to him as you can… “

Hey, Kyle. what’s it to YOU whether I or anyone else is “brought” to the lord? Do you get brownie points for head-hunting? Are you really so arrogant as to assume you’re saving other INTELLIGENT people from their own IGNORNANCE - that only YOU know what they don’t know?

Or, as I strongly suspect, do you and all like you have such deep-seated insecurities and suspicions, ESPECIALLY about God and Christianity, that to actualy “sell” Christ and get someone else to “buy” it, makes YOU feel more unafraid.

Like buying a car. After you buy it you find out it’s actually a LEMON. So what do you do? You spend your life going around trying to convince other suckers that the package you bought isn’t really all that bad. The more suckers you can convince, the less foolish you feel about getting conned.

Someday, if you have a brain in your head, you’ll come to the same conclusion about your Christ and God. You’ve bought a LEMON. Good luck with it!

God and Christ are figments of your IMAGINATION. Live in your fantasy if you must… but try to keep your affliction a little more private. If you are too far brainwashed to find your way back to sanity, well… I pity you.

You’re a victim of psychological abuse and those who did it to you should be arrested and jailed. Have you noticed that ALL victims gravitate toward “safe houses” and spend their lives supporting one another’s injuries? In Christianity the “safe house” is called a “church” and the victims are called “parishioners” or “Christians.”

Hello, again.

Just please take the time to read mine and Kyle Holloways messages, and please give us messages back at either his email address or mine: mine is .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) and his is .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Thank you

-God Bless
Judah Callaway
Kyle Holloway

well…first off you have no right to talk about Ron Luce that way he is an awsome man and didnt do anything wrong but stick up for what he believes in..and what we believe in…and hitler…man you man do you have your thought all out of wack…hitler was against what we all are…he killed…no…he murdered people…jesus’s people and so how dare you even compare us to that evil man…and self righteous pride…the book of god is based upon giving him all we have with no pride not caring what anyone things about and and we arent going to….and theres nothing wrong with people just taking it easy in god…but being radical is what being christian is all about standing out and praising the lord with everything you have and bringing as many people to him as you can…

the bible….the bible is our instruction book it isnt some random thing someone made up ok..the bible tells us how to live our life down here on the miserable sin filled planet…

bush is a good man…he sent those people over there for a reason…yes he might ave gotten them killed and our own troops but think about the lives he saved our there in Iraq the children and wemon that where not for what was going on over there…you have no right to even bring that into this at all gods looking out for them and your not in there place…

about your little chant…you can say what you want…and ill pray for you in the name of jesus christ but that wont stop us…and the fact that your getting upset about us trying to save yall from burning in pits of fire for the rest of eternity…you should be thanking us…

Abortion…abortion is murder….try this next time before you go and have anyone get an abortion take them to the doctor first…and hear the heart beat of that little baby before you kill it…prais god for the laws going in South Dakota…and we are not taking away your freedoms…we are just standing up for what we believe in and what is right..will a tadpole never become a frog? of course it will that fedis will become a childen how can it not be living? and then be born..? you think your doing people a favor by killing there children? good luck with that..

do you believe in sex before marriage?..because by saying abortion is ok…you allowing kids like me to be tempted and think…well its ok if she gets pregnant she can just get an abortion…and thats not right…you know its not…

and please!! please!! send me a message and tell me how anything that i just said is wrong…

Jesus loves you…even if your actions are wrong…

Kyle Holloway

All I require from Judah Callaway and all other “believers” is that when a claim is made, they PROVE IT. When I make a claim I provide evidence that the claim is true.

That’s the way the real world works, believers. When you claim something is true it is YOUR responsibility to provide PROOF to support the veracity of your claim, not the reponsibility of others to prove your claim isn’t true.

For example, Judah wrote “...a teen generation, must stand up for what we beleive in ( jesus christ ) or this future generation will be lost to adults-to-be ( like myself )...”.

Fine. You made the claim. Now PROVE IT. Provide documentation and statistics and evidence that what you stated is FACT.

If you can’t, then what you have published is OPINION and ASSUMPTION, neither of which is either EVIDENCE or PROOF of anything.

An honest “Christian” (or any other person) doesn’t present their opinions, views, assumptions as FACT.

You see, Judah, NONE OF US has the evidence to back up “beliefs.” You believe in your Christianity and I believe it’s nonsense food for emotional cripples.

Oh, by the way, don’t bother offering the Bible as proof or evidence. There is far less FICTION in the phone book than in the Bible.

Im sure none of you will change your opinion out of being stubborn, even if i show you how awsome He is and how great His love is, but that is not stopping me from going out and preaching the word of God and saving lives. I am only thirteen, and out of that, i’ve learnt that age does not matter. I remember a true story about a kid, about 1st-3rd grade, and in the middle of class he cried out to God and asked forgiveness, and the fire that was inside him burst out ( metaphorically speaking ) and in the end the entire school was down on their knees asking God for forgiveness and submitting their lives to christ. Now that doesn’t happen everyday does it?  And also a evangelist, Debbie Rich, was killed three times in one day, but she is still living and jumping about. She had a blood clot in her lungs, and the doctors said she was supposed to be dead in about 30 minutes… She lived with that blood clot in her lungs for about 3 and a half hours. Now im not 100% on all of that information, but it was close to that( as in she died three times, she was supposed to be dead but is alive ) Now, how many people do you see that have a testimony like that? do you think it is luck? no such thing as luck. Coincidence?... I’ve never come across a coincidence like that before. Christ was involved.

-God bless
Judah Callaway

Also to add to that… when christians say that we are going out to the battle and killing people..Just, why do you have to take it so literally? Do you think that we are actually going to go out in little towns and villages and have a massacre? Killing people, slitting their throats? Why do you take it so literally? WE mean that we are going to go to towns, and Get out our sword ( the holy bible ) and stab you with it ( save you from your ways and help you to get onto the right track with God. ) Christians use very many symbolic things, and use alot of metaphors! Just, when you hear thing like that, just remember to not take it literally, please

      - God Bless
Judah Callaway

I respect your patriotism,but you have to look at it from all sides… us, as a teen generation, must stand up for what we beleive in ( jesus christ ) or this future generation will be lost to adults-to-be ( like myself ) who will drink too much and get drunk, smoke and get high, and all of these other sins… I’m not saying that all of the people who aren’t christian are going to be smokers, drinkers, and overall bad people, but what i am trying to get across is that I, and i emphasize I, am not going to take this anymore… My generation will be lost to Mtv, VH1, Comedy Central, Adult swim, and soon enough, they will think that it will all be allright, but its not. Yes, i have watched all of those before, but now i am fired up for god and im ready to stand up for my generation, and one day my generation will be parents and they will have kids, and they will feed all of this into their childs brains, and they will have a ruined life. Who knows, maybe some of the people who will be feeding that to their children will get rich, famous, or whatever, but they will still be feeding that into their brains. This whole BattleCry, ATF, Teen Mania, is for the future, and i wish you could just look at it from our point of view, us as teenagers, gathered up at those places to what? PRAISE GOD!! and we are not going to stand by anymore, and allow the media to be shoving this junk down our throats. And i am shocked, now, to see what is happening to my peers. At my school, many claim to be christians, but they dont live up to it, and many smoke and drink….AT THE AGE OF 12 or 13…this is one of the many reasons i chose to stand up… and one thing i was surprised to hear at ATF was that 1 out of every 8 teens commit suicide…1/8th…I’m very glad to see that you stand up as well, but moreover i would love to see you stand up for this generation and how it is being corrupted.

      God Bless.
-Judah Callaway

this article is probably the most biased article i have ever seen. you cannot judge something if you have never attended or seen it. she (ms. taylor) has a very mixed up view of life. nothing anyone could ever say could turn me from the Lord who was willing to send His Son to die for me and created me in His image. This nation WAS founded on godly principles and we need to return to that place!

Look, if these people all believe in sacrificing their life for some figurative rebirth, whatever. But when they threaten the ones who do not fit their standards of WHO A HUMAN BEING IS, i DO have a problem. You can have beliefs and opinions of course, but nobody is obligated to follow them. Thank you for righting this, and exposing one of the most culturaly ignored issues that teen youth are facing.

- teen

So you are against young, spritful Christians getting together and worshiping, eh? What’s wrong with that? not everything in Battlecry is “anti-gay”. Did you even listen? I went to a Battlecry last year myself, and I am going this year. All Ron Luce and everyone else is saying “stand up, fight against the molding of your generation” why on EARTH would you be against that? it’s a great thing. there’s a Bible verse I love that goes with some of the things you mentioned…but only if you really get what I’m saying here.

It’s “If God is for us, who can be against us?” and another is “Be saved from this corrupt generation.”

don’t be against Battlecry.

Yes I know all about homosexual haters and like you said, they probably aren’t really Christians.  Also, as you pointed out, they have a faulty and twisted view of the scriptures. You have to remember though that they are a minority. What I meant by “I don’t know what in the world they’re talking about” is that I’ve never met a Christian like they describe in my whole life; I only hear about them. And beleive me I’ve been around. That’s why I consider joey’s remarks one-sided and bogotted.

Open-minded libirty lovers have no need to gasp. Christ is the source of all freedom, afterall.

Ethan Baker whined, “I get confused when people call Christians narrowminded homophobic biggots. I don’t know what in the world they’re talking about.”

Let’s add to that - can’t spell (experiance, biggots, crede, disaproved).

I’ll agree with you though, not all Xians are NMHBs.  Lots of liberal Xians who actually heed Jesus’s message of peace and love are quite open minded (the Bible is NOT the infallible word of god), accepting of homosexuals and don’t treat “others” as if they’re inferior.

You consider homosexuality a sin?  Based on what?  In our previous exchanges you insisted that the Old Testament laws were fulfilled by Jesus’s crucifixion.  As I stated before, and you ignored, that means the 10 Commandments are out as well as the judgments that homosexual sex is “an abomination.”  Or do you still insist on having it both ways (HYPOCRISY)?

You want people to stop calling most Xians NMHBs?  Then stop treating homosexuals and people of other faiths as if they’re dirt.  You say you don’t hate gays, but you deny them basic human rights because “the Bible says so.”  Give gays the full and equal right to marry and quit trying to force everybody to accept Xianity as the “one true way” and you’ll go a long way toward losing the negative stigma.

Your free exercise rights mean you can’t be forced to accept gay marriage, marry a person of the same sex or consecrate a wedding in your church if, as you indicated, you deem the behavior immoral.  It doesn’t give you the right to deny others the same right you enjoy (to marry the person you love) just because you claim your god is squeamish at seeing two guys doing it.  What part of “equal protection” don’t you understand?  Rights apply to everybody!  When you claim them (as many Xians do) for Xians only, that is a privelege and, thanks to non-NMHBs over the last 40 years, those priveleges are being stripped away.

And for my pet peeve, when you stop telling people they’re going to be eternally tormented just because they believe in a different deity or none at all, the bigot tag might drop off.  It’s just such unmitigated arrogance!

Ethan Baker proclaimed, “I beleive in absulute truth and absolute morality (i.e. what God has established as right/wrong is right/wrong, has always been right/wrong, and will always be right/wrong.”

Let me refresh your memory, yet again.  The laws you claim the crucifixion fulfilled are no longer applicable, ie, no stoning gays, unruly children or witches.  Looks to me like the right/wrong got switched then.  And as a further point, if you still believe the entire 6 billion+ world population procreated from Adam & Eve in 6,000 to 10,000 years, then you know that incest, a MAJOR taboo today had to be allowed for a long time.  Cain & Abel had to be banging their sisters (or maybe even mom) in order to get the human race populated so quickly.  Then Noah and his family were banging each other to get the population back after the flood.  Always right/wrong?  HARDLY!

Of course there’s also that pesky little matter of your god personally killing thousands and thousands and thousands of people (or at least ordering the slaughter of countless men, women, children & animals) so that his people could occupy certain lands.  Kind of makes that “thou shalt not kill” (or even if you read it as murder) a whole bunch of crap.

Ethan Baker boldly exclaimed, “I am open to any manner of possibility, experiance, or opinion.”

So, if the evidence should become overwhelming that the tomb found in Jerusalum does contain the mortal remains of Jesus, Mary and other family members, you’d toss aside the divinity of Christ? Yeah, I thought not.

“I get confused when people call Christians narrowminded homophobic biggots. I don’t know what in the world they’re talking about”

well then i have the dubious honour pf presenting to you, the NMHB in all his righteous glory; just one of many, not individuals but organisations, dedicated to the brutalising of homosexuals and anyone else who offends their sensibilities, including mocking the funerals of American soldiers: http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

if you say “these folks aren’t Christians” i’d have to agree, nonetheless they act in Christ’s name, and give creedence to the admonition, “My name is profaned among the Gentiles because of you”. i believe it is folks like this that besmirch your faith and draw the ire of the joeys of the world..

these folks would not only have their religious views codified in secular law, they’d have gays killed, and say things like “God loves everyone: the greatest lie ever told”. and of course they’ve got the Scripture to back it all up, or at least Scripture as they interpret it.

this is why when people mention church and state in the same breath, liberty-lovers tend to gasp..

I disagree. I’ve delt with people like joeydonuts many times before and I see these kinds of statements constantly. Based on such experiance, I believe that joeydonuts was making a blanket statement against all Christians as he sees them. It’s hit and run: Say something horrible about people you dislike, which you can’t (or are unwilling to) back up then run and “hide”. I also question what he means by “narrowminded, homophobic biggoted a—hole.” I for example do beleive that homosexuality is a sin and immoral but I don’t hate or insult homosexuals. Sure, I beleive in absulute truth and absolute morality (i.e. what God has established as right/wrong is right/wrong, has always been right/wrong, and will always be right/wrong; but aside from morality, I am open to any manner of possibility, experiance, or opinion. Im also no biggot. I’m ready to consider everyone of any race, crede, or religion without prejudging them. (this may seem to contradict my comments on Mr. Mayfield but I was able to make a judgment about him by his words after careful consideration of them, which he confirmed also by his words) Of course if their behaviour is immoral, I disaprove but I don’t hate them for it. Most of the many Christians I’ve met over the years are pretty much the same way as I’ve described. I get confused when people call Christians narrowminded homophobic biggots. I don’t know what in the world they’re talking about.

i think joeydonuts was referring only to the “NMBA” sect of Christianity, and that those brave and faithful Christians who remain true to Christ’s teachings of tolerance of both the real and perceived faults of others and his admonition to judge not lest we be judged, would be exempt from his donutly venom, and whether or not it applies to you personally would depend on whether or not you’re a NMBA, which, as you pointed out, joeydonuts, even in his Most Circular wisdom, couldn’t possibly know..

I’m glad to see joeydonuts is such tolerant, open-minded, and understanding person. I’m a Christian but I sure hope he’s not including me in his venom. He’s never even met me. He’s never been to my church or talked to my Christian friends or family. Joeydonuts doesn’t know squat. He comes off as a blabbering moron. I’m just a normal guy living a normal life, just like every other Christian I know. What have I ever done to joeydonuts? What have I ever done to anybody? Come now, who’s the real bigot here?

I’m sick and tired of you people using Jesus as an excuse for being a narrowminded homophobic biggoted asshole.

we’re given the choice of how to play the game, but not the choice of whether or not to play the game in the first place. life itself, and the laws that govern it, are inherrently non-consensual, therefore any “choices” proceeding from it are truly the fruit of a poison tree..

the Creation story reminds me of the “Saw” movies, which featured a serial torturer who placed people who were “ungrateful for the gift of life” in situations where they had to endure horrific ordeals in order to survive, so as to make them “aware” of just how precious life really is. he saw this as providing them with a great service, and probably even expected gratitude for it, or blamed them for “bringing it on themselves”. 

likewise, one can save one’s soul (ie: go to heaven, and be given a measure of joy/solace here on earth), but must participate in the game (ie: life on earth) to do so. or one can ignore the rules and be torn asunder, but one thing we, like Jigsaw’s victims, can’t do, is opt out.

now, in those movies, if someone said about the antagonist (Jigsaw), who placed people in these gruesome situations, “you cannot blame Jigsaw for the fate of his victims, because he gave every one of them a clear ‘roadmap to salvation’”, you would reply, “you’re mad; their fate, sink or swim, is clearly Jigsaw’s doing, because it was he who placed them in the situation to begin with. they were quite safe before he plucked them out of obscurity and subjected them to these horrific ordeals”.

and you’d be right. yet Jigsaw disavowed any responsibility for the deaths of those who chose not to, or were unable to, follow his prescribed path to salvation.

and if the torturer’s defenders exclaimed,“true, but these experiences built character in the victims, and helped them to gain insight into their own nature, and more appreciative of the ‘gift of life’” (which it did), you’d surely reply, “indeed, nonetheless he reduced those people to the status of lab rats, and he was not at liberty to do so! they were forced to play on someone else’s terms, and so were not truly free!”.

and you’d be right. 

and one was indeed grateful for Jigsaw’s spiritual “transformation” of them, and one even became his disciple, vowing to follow in his footsteps; but the only *real* justification for his actions is simply that “he could”. his motives were his and his alone, and his rationalisation was simply an inversion of his fear of facing his hatred of his own predicament. 

such is the case with the notion of God: we say, “He can do it because He’s God”, and lay all blame for the outcome of His actions at the feet of His victims.

there’s a term for this identification with one’s captors and subsequent apologetics: it’s called “Stockholm syndrome”, wherein the victim, seeing no way out of the terrifying situation,  tries to justify the actions of the captor in order to make them seem “good”, and therefore less frightening.

this is also what produces comments like
“Suffering is a gift because it makes us turn to God and gives others an opportunity to show compassion, and allows us to identify with the suffering of others, bringing us closer to each other as well”, and “God whispers to us in pleasure, but shouts to us in pain”.

it is a psychological defense mechanism that allows us to press on in the face of any horror, and has served our species (or at least our DNA) quite well over the years, helping to enhance our chances for survival.

ultimately the question of faith, from a practical standpoint, boils down to a question of whether or not the end justifies the means. the Dominionist/Reconstructionist wing of Christianity shouts a resounding “yes”. they say “He does, because He can”.

we create our Gods in our own image, gazing upon them, infatuated, and cowering before them in fear..

Mark Mayfield said, “First of all, nice twisting.  Personally, I find it a lot easier to read words at face value.  Unless you can find “fulfilled by my death on the cross” or words to that effect, your INTERPETATION of the Matthew verses doesn’t pass for anything more than wishful thinking or lies told to you by parents or church elders.”

Mark Mayfield said, “First of all, nice twisting.  Personally, I find it a lot easier to read words at face value.  Unless you can find “fulfilled by my death on the cross” or words to that effect, your INTERPETATION of the Matthew verses doesn’t pass for anything more than wishful thinking or lies told to you by parents or church elders.”

The way I explained the matter to Mr. Mayfield has been the mainstream explanation for centuries. Basically, that interpretation has been known to be correct from the beginning. That is what the ‘fulfillment’ that Jesus talks about is. It is a FACT, not just an interpretation. Though I should say that the Matthew passage doesn’t specifically say “fulfilled by my death on the cross” in those particular verses, but it’s quite clear in other statements made by Jesus, and throughout the rest of the New Testament that his sacrifice on the cross is the ‘fulfillment’ of the law. I would provide you with specific verses, Mr. Mayfield, but it seems you’ve already made up your stubborn mind. Anything the bible says you are going to twist to your own interpretation; much the same thing as you have accused me of.

That said, thankfully I don’t have to rely solely on pastors, church elders, or parents, to tell me what is truth or how to interpret the Bible. Humanity is flawed, his interpretations are fallible. Thank God there is a more reliable way to learn. Through sincere prayer (simply talking with God) and the study of his scriptures, God speaks to the heart and reveals the meaning of the Word to believers. It cannot be understood by reading alone, without God’s guidance.(“face value” as Mr. Mayfield put it, is often not enough.) That’s how Christianity works. That’s the “secret.” Of course, for someone who doesn’t believe God exists, what I just said will never make sense to them and they will continue to have a major problem with this explanation. Regardless, God DOES exist and this IS how genuine Christianity works. I have found God as real and present as the ground I stand on, as undeniable as the laws of physics. It’s just a simple fact of life.

As to God’s nature, Mr. Mayfield talks about a horrific, jealous, vengeful, angry god of war. All I can say to that is that has not been my personal experience nor as it been the personal experience of any Christian I know. I have been a Christian for 18 years. Through my real, personal relationship with God, I have found him to be loving, good, just, merciful, and holy. What God does is always right and always just. Sin has consequences and a truly just God cannot let it endure forever. Through his abundant mercy, everyone is given chance after chance to turn to him. To reject him is to doom oneself, God is not at fault.

I feel sorry for you too, Mr. Mayfield. You are indeed a fool. I point you to 1 Corinthians 1:18-25 again. The so-called knowledge that you spout is worthless.

Ethan Baker said, “Just to clarify: The ‘fulfillment’ of the Law and the Prophets is Jesus’ death on the cross for all our sins. His action makes it no longer necessary to burn sacrifices for sins on alters as the old law commanded. The reoccurring, constant them of the old law was preparation for the coming savior who has already come and sacrificed his life for our sins, therefore fulfilling the law. That is what is meant by those Matthew verses.”

First of all, nice twisting.  Personally I find it a lot easier to read words at face value.  Unless you can find “fulfilled by my death on the cross” or words to that effect, your INTERPETATION of the Matthew verses doesn’t pass for anything more than wishful thinking or lies told to you by parents or church elders.

I’m quite amused that the 1st Amendment of the U.S. Constitution can’t be interpreted to have the principal of separation of church and state (because the term is not explicitly written there), yet the infallible word of the almighty supreme being, creator of the universe and savior of mankind can be edited as you please.

OK, so the laws are fulfilled.  You’re gonna throw out the 10 Commandments too?  Better fill in the other Christians who seem hellbent on keeping them and insisting they be posted all over the place, though they don’t seem to take ANY of them seriously.  But then, they were never meant for personal guidance, only to force others to obey.

Ethan Baker continued, “As to the question of the old law’s commands of stoning and putting to death, I don’t have enough knowledge to talk about this, it’s a difficult issue for me too. All I can say is, I do know that God does NOT support or condone vigilante violence against homosexuals or “witches” or anyone who doesn’t share Christian beliefs.”

If you’re gonna qualify with “vigilante” then no.  But otherwise god surely DOES support, condone and personally commit all sorts of horrific violence. That’s why the verses are in there!  Guy shags other guy, stone them to death!  Kid curses his parents, drag him to the public square and stone him!  Etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum.

After all the whining by Robertson & Falwell after 9/11 about how Islam is such a “violent religion,” I wanted to place a billboard with Deuteronomy 13 on it to show that Christianity is at least equally as violent.  Wouldn’t have done any good I suppose.  Christians are experts at dissembling and rationaliing.

I guess really I/we should be thankful.  If not for Christian hypocrisy and their ability to ignore a straightforward, plain COMMAND to kill all who would try to lead them from their angry, jealous god of war who himself created evil, there’d be bloodshed like the days of the Crusades.

I will give credit where it’s due - I applaud Ethan for admitting that the stoning and killing is a “difficult issue” for him.  It should be!  I’d not call someone decent or human if they were indifferent to such.  My suggestion is that you read ALL of the OT.  Let the horror sink in as to what the “one true god” perpetrated.  Then read Revelations and see what he supposedly has in store for people who, through the free will granted by him, choose simply to believe another religion (largely due to where they were born) or none at all.

If you can continue to pray to a deity who would commit such acts against his “children” then I feel sorry for you indeed.  We lock up men who do far less.  Why glorify such in a deity?

The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”  The wise man says it to the world.

On the contrary…
Christianity is the most logical and reasonable belief system in existence. I know God exists because I pray to him and he speaks to me. He has changed my life as he has changed the lives of millions over the centuries. He is my all and I cannot exist without him. If only Mr. Mayfiel would step out of the valley of ignorance and come into the light.

Just to clarify: The ‘fulfillment’ of the Law and the Prophets is Jesus’ death on the cross for all our sins. His action makes it no longer necessary to burn sacrifices for sins on alters as the old law commanded. The reoccurring, constant them of the old law was preparation for the coming savior who has already come and sacrificed his life for our sins, therefore fulfilling the law. That is what is meant by those Matthew verses. As to the question of the old law’s commands of stoning and putting to death, I don’t have enough knowledge to talk about this, it’s a difficult issue for me too. All I can say is, I do know that God does NOT support or condone vigilante violence against homosexuals or “witches” or anyone who doesn’t share Christian beliefs.

To throw your words back at you, Mr. Fayfield, I say: For there are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers in pseudo-science (evolution) and personal pleasure, with their eyes stubbornly fixed on themselves and their own will, rather than God’s.

1 Corinthians 1:18-25: “18-21 The Message that points to Christ on the Cross seems like sheer silliness to those hellbent on destruction, but for those on the way of salvation it makes perfect sense. This is the way God works, and most powerfully as it turns out. It’s written,

  ‘I’ll turn conventional wisdom on its head,
  I’ll expose so-called experts as crackpots.’

So where can you find someone truly wise, truly educated, truly intelligent in this day and age? Hasn’t God exposed it all as pretentious nonsense? Since the world in all its fancy wisdom never had a clue when it came to knowing God, God in his wisdom took delight in using what the world considered dumb—preaching, of all things!—to bring those who trust him into the way of salvation.

22-25 While Jews clamor for miraculous demonstrations and Greeks go in for philosophical wisdom, we go right on proclaiming Christ, the Crucified. Jews treat this like an anti-miracle—and Greeks pass it off as absurd. But to us who are personally called by God himself—both Jews and Greeks—Christ is God’s ultimate miracle and wisdom all wrapped up in one. Human wisdom is so tinny, so impotent, next to the seeming absurdity of God. Human strength can’t begin to compete with God’s ‘weakness.’” (The Message version)

You think you are wise, Mr. Mayfield, but in reality you’re just a fool.

>Therefore, Jesus basically threw out most of the Levitical laws and replaced them with more reasonable laws.

Uh, no he didn’t.  I’m constantly amazed that “Christians” don’t have a clue about the Bible, New or Old Testament.  Your pastor may have explained it this way, but that’s just the trend lately to de-emphasize the hellfire & brimstone and emphasize the love & forgiveness.  It’s a lot easier to stomach the thought that you don’t have to abide by such harsh laws and judgments, but if you’re going to claim the Bible as your “instruction manual,” have the decency not to be such a cherry-picking hypocrite.

How hard is it to understand what Jesus said?  It’s not code, it’s not in need of translation.  Christians claim “the Word” is infallible and unchangeable, then proceed to change, ignore or rationalize it to suit their tastes or sensibilities.

Just which Levitical laws did Jesus “throw out?”  Got a verse to back that up?  And what of the laws in Exodus and Deuteronomy?  Are those “thrown out” too?  If so, is it all or would you cherry-pick there?  The “Ten Commandments” are in Exodus 20 (I assume you’d keep those), but the command to kill cursing children is in Exodus 21.

Let me be blunt about it.  If you’re not stoning witches, homosexuals, unruly children; if you’re not burning whores, harlots and incestuous men & women; if you don’t kill any person who would try to lead you from your beliefs, you are NOT following the mandates/laws of the Bible and you are directly disobeying your supposed Lord & Savior as it was Jesus himself who said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 5:17-19

Go on Christians, grab your stones and fire and do as YOUR God commands.  If you can’t find it in your heart to do so, then it’s time to come over to the side of reason and logic and leave your blind allegiance to irrational superstitions behind.  For there are none more ignorant and useless, than they that seek answers on their knees, with their eyes closed.

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

not saying that *Democrats* are bad?  there are many Christian democrats, Alyssa. my mother is one..  that very comment - the association of an entire political party with sin - bears witness to the political nature of this movement. that’s not preaching, it’s lobbying.

and yes, action *does* speak louder than words, so what are all the dang guns for? i’m staunchly pro-gun, mind you, but there’s a time to brandish your weapon (only when you intend to use it and a time not to, and a religious rally seems an odd place to do it.

Christianity has nothing to do with the goals of the ruling elite (who run both parties) except to create a sense of enmity in the population. it’s an easy button to push. they pit the populus against itself because a unified America is their worst nightmare. they keep us focussed on the splinter in our neighbor’s eye so we don’t notice the plank in *theirs*.. 

and yes this *is* Hitler-esque. he too used Christianity to justify his policies. he framed it so that to defy him was to defy God’s will, which is exactly what the radical element of the Repub party are doing.

would you say Hitler was acting in a Christian manner? no. yet he said it was his goal to “restore Germany as a Christian nation”. sound familiar?

the Bible says that the Antichrist will emerge from the apostate Christian church. he will come cloaked as the Lamb and will present as a peacemaker. if you’d like to gain some Biblical perspective on the current situation, and proof that the American religious right is an apostate movement, you might want to become involved with Antipas Ministries, a genuine fundamentalist Christian ministry focussed on Christ’s teachings. they offer missionary training and all the support you need to truly walk in Christ’s footsteps.

to live your faith you must understsand it, and i think your instructor is misleading you (and perhaps he too has been misled). Antipas will school you right. please give them a chance. the Pastor is a war veteran himself: a true Patriot.

meanwhile i’ll have them put you in their prayers (i’m in them too, btw, i’m agnostic but truly treasure the friendship of these wondeful Christians).

what you said i was surprised at first that luce didn’t say anything, but then i remebered that actions speak louder than words. he didn’t have to say anything, just by being there, he won. we are not called to defend the word of Jesus Christ, we are called to teach it and live by it. i am certainly not saying that gays and democrats and atheists are bad, because God loves you and all of them. I dont agree with it but i still love them. And so does God. I am not here to judge but more so to love and explain that God is love! i will be praying for you.
Stay Blessed,
alyssa joy

OK first of all Battlecry is certainly not ANYTHING like the Nazi’s or anything to do with that!!

“Fighting the battle” and other such phrases are analogies…. ever heard of those?!

Ron Luce didn’t mean that we were LITERALLY fighting a battle but that there is a spiritual war going on in our souls! The enemy is Satan himself and he’s trying to attack us everyday! What Ron Luce is trying to say is that we need to rely on the power of God to “win the battle” for us!

There is certainly NO violent activity going on through battlecry! If there is I would like you to explain what that is!

Battlecry is all about getting teens to live out their faith and be more open about their relationship with Christ!! As an un-believer you may not understand where I’m coming from!

Secondly, The Bible IS like an instruction manual for us…. it tells us what God expects from us and who He is and what He does for us! Ron Luce may not have answered your question about the Levitical laws but I’ll tell you that my pastor explained it like this:
    Before Jesus died on the cross, there was no sacrifice for sin.. so hence the people had to sacrifice animals. However, once Jesus came he became the sacrifice for our sins! When he came to Earth he preached more about the forgiveness of sins rather than the condemnation of sins that the OLD testament teaches. Therefore, Jesus basically threw out most of the Levitical laws and replaced them with more reasonable laws.

That’s all i really wanted to say…. anyone who thinks that battlecry is some kind of cult or uprising needs to take a closer look and actually sit down and talk to Ron Luce about his “tactics” and ask him to explain himself and the whole idea of battlecry!

I urge everyone who has said anything against Battlecry to take a closer look at their facts. We, as young Christians are not at all witnessing by the blood or the sword. We are not going to use violence to stand up for what IS RIGHT!

What I find the most interesting about this article is the choice of quotes the writer uses. By using the words “blood”, the writer is stating that Christians are a violent peoplewho kill all who don’t have the same beliefs. This is a lie. The blood of Jesus is a symbol that we use to represent the sacrifice our creator made for us. Jesus shed his blood out of love for us, not hatred or violence!

Although I did not go to Battlecry myself many of my friends did, and I assure you that there was NOTHING in the event that can be compared to the Nazi party. They were about destroying whole races to make one “perfect” society. We, as Christians, know that nobody is perfect; we are all different and yet equally beautiful in God’s eyes. We are not trying to destroy and separate groups who defy us, but unify them into one lifestyle: Christianity. We are not doing this because we think that we are perfect, but we’re doing it out of love! If somebody said to you “I’ve found a way to live forever and be wholly happy and satisfied through it” would you accept or decline?! You say that we are illogical but I believe whole-heartedly that you (you being non-believers) are the illogical ones!!

JOHN 3:16~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only song so whoever believes in him shall not perish but enjoy eternal life.

I was just wondering how many kids at these battle cry events,

got raped?
engaged in drug use?
got in fights?
stole something?
vandalized something?
ran around naked?
snuck in booze?
shoved someone out of there way for a better view?
anything else bad?

Maybe these events are just full of good people who want to learn about God?

atf battlecry events are a great ministry that helps me and 1,0000,0000 other teens in the fight for a better life

This column is a hysterical, reactionary rant fueled by gross bigotry and ignorant misrepresentation. It’s a fear tatic designed to repress opposition to liberal social views. It’s a malicious, desperate attempt to defame and disparage people whom the author hates (specificly conservative Christians). Nice try, Mr. The author doesn’t care about the truth; he only sees what he wants to see: danger and doomsday scenarios where none exist. He is the ultimate hypocrite. If anything smacks of Nazism, it’s the author of this column and his tactics.

Hello, again.

  At the end of your article, you said that your point was made because Ron Luce did not defend the Bible.  You know what, Jesus did not call us to defend the Bible.  He called us teach the truth.  I’ve heard before “We are called to be witnesses, not lawyers.”.  We can not MAKE you believe anything, but you should know that you WILL be held accountable for the lies you are telling about Battle Cry and Chrisians.  And please stop relating Battle Cry to Bush.  Battle Cry is not Politics.

In Christ’s Love,
  Tammi

People who follow Christ just want the world to see the Truth. We can’t and won’t make anyone believe the Truth. And we do not fight our battle in this realm.

2 Ephesians 6:12
We do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Corinthians 4:3-4
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not beleive, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is in the image of God, should shine on them.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

John 8:32
And you shall know the Truth and the Truth shall set you free

(Its a battle in the spirit)

FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!! IN JESUS NAME!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hello all, just a reminder to those of you who wrote this article criticizing Aquire the Fire.
The premise of all of this is to become a Christian—a follower of Christ. When God touches you and you begin following Him—thru the shed blood of Jesus Christ your sins are forgiven—then you begin to know what truth is. It is not anything of this world—neither media, movies, books or anything that the world calls important can match God’s own Word to us—the bible—the ONLY TRUTH. But if you have never accepted Jesus—of course this will all seem like a bunch of nonsense.
I will ask those of you who wrote this article—never mind writing more—you have been witnessed to—now find out—by going to God’s Word—and study to see if you are yet a child of God—read John 3 and find out what the qualifications are. Pray and ask God to reveal to you if Jesus and the Bible are REAL or PHONEY. Find out—don’t just write articles.
There is a heaven and a hell—there is a right and a wrong—good and bad—and God’s standards and ways are not ours. We can say we’re good people, but that will not get us to heaven. Are you concerned with what will happen to you when you die?? You should be—life dosen’t last forever—and really to be on the safe side, shouldn’t you check up on it and find out if its true??? I did.
I’m no kid, and did not come back to Christ and His ways until I was 35 years old. I consider the years I was away from his wasted with useless nonsense—and that is why Ron Luce and people like him want to save this generation the time and expense of serving the world instead of God—by turning them on to Jesus Christ at a young age.
Jesus himself said His Kingdom was NOT of this world—only by accepting Him and beginning to live by His standards could you begin to understand what these precious kids are doing at Aquire the Fire.
My own daughter and her friends were there on that date as well as my husband and I. We are amazed and awed at what Ron Luce is doing to reach youth.
What do you have to compare with it?? Has our generation done anything to stem the tide of the abortion, drugs, alcohol, sex out the eardrums , suicide and the like?? God help our generation to listen to these Kids. I’m proud to be a part of this. But the day will come I hope when you have a Damascus Road experience—read about this in the New Testament.
Then, and only then will you believe, and I pray for you all that that day will come for you, as it did for me.
In Christ, N. Skinner

The most interesting thing that Ron Luce said the other day is that youth today are NOT being encouraged to think foe themselves today and theough a constant barrage of media in the form of large informercials such as rock video channels, music and the like they are being led by large corporate giants who are making billions off North American youth. I cant speak for him, but in the seminar he was giving for youth leaders it was clear that 1) He believed the ability to think for themselves and worse to be creative in their own ways was being sucked out of the youth of today
2) at least you are thinking.. I hope…for yourself… and if so that is at least better than what is happening with most North American youth who are simply aping what they see or here. I do not think Mr Luce thinks the Bible or the truths taught in it can Not stand up to scrutiny. In fact it is the lack of a search for TRUTH that is most disturbing.
  I think that there IS alot of political culture in American that is intertwined with religious conservatism, BUT both sides need to take a deep breath, stand back and twist these away from one another. NO christian should say “My country right or wrong”.
  I hope that any movement,... battlecry included.. that sounds an alarm to get people to thinkn for themselves and not just ape either the right or the left but ask those questions that are going to make a difference in the way they live their lives AND lead them closer to TRUTh is great!
  As I said the greatest danger posed to our youth today is that theu are being BOUGHT by large corporations who see this generation as the largest age group with the largest disposable income. And they will do anything to tap into that….
.... check and see what kind of material advantage Teen Mania has in having these battalecry events,,, are they making money really? Who is profiting? .. really?
And lets get the youth of America at least critically thinking about the crud being shovelled into their minds day and night, night and day and the money being made on them….

“If This Goes On-”  by R.A.Heinlein should be required reading for all american youth. This rise of the christian fundamentalist taliban theocracy is very, very worrying.

i consider myself an extremely tolerant person until someone approaches me on the street and tells me i’m going to hell.  in honesty those people that do that have all been christian, which bothers me because i was raised as a christian. 

point is, people should be tolerant.  you are in this country to freely practice whatever religion you choose without persecution as long as you uphold the laws of the land. and if you want to enjoy that freedom, you must allow others to as well.  i know many people who dislike christians strictly for their intolerant attitudes toward other religions. 

so christians are noting that their religion seems to have come under attack in recent years.  well maybe it has something to do with members of the christian religion pressing their values on everyone else.  if members of the jewish faith decided one day that everyone needed to be like them and started going on tv and staging rallies and telling people that they’re damned for not being of their sect, well then everyone would be attacking jews. 

the reason people are upset with george w. bush and christians at the same time is because he is making decisions that are superficially based on fundemental christian values.  this theory is proven by the devotion he has recieved from fundemental christian groups.  this is not the way this country was intended to be run, see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States>.  as a result, many non-christians are feeling alienated and threatened in their own country.

as people, we should try to recognize our similarities and celebrate our differences (corny i know).  as christians, we should be tolerant, forgiving, and loving.  isn’t christianity about imitating christ?  wasn’t he all of those things?

i think religious teen/youth groups are great if they help the individual deal with problems/life.  however, i do not support any group of any religion that encourages violent behaviour in defending their religion from “attacks” a la Al Qaeda.  if christians want to be more pro-active in their faith they should be missionaries, not soldiers. battlecry is taking faith to a place it isn’t meant to be: murder for religion. 

the point is, if you go out and advertise your religion as the only way and insult people’s way of life in this country, you’d better be ready to take the backlash. 

sorry for the novel.

“speaking skills” is where the simliarity between Luce and MLK ends.. both can/could turn a phrase, but their respective “dreams” couldn’t be more different. ideas have consequences.

it’s all about social memes. the thing that influences society are the interpretations of the preachers, the pictures they paint. both referenced the Bible, but the imagery of the world they propose and the means of attaining it is what we must judge them by, not merely whether or not they claim to be “christians”.

anything can be done in Jesus’ name, so i’d say the tiebreaker is which is closest to the example Jesus set; how he lived his life. he preached giving our wealth to the poor, and not being violent toward our enemies but turning the other cheek, hoping to end the cycle of violence and spread goodwill by example.

Luce is exemplary of a growing breed of chrisitans that are the modern incarnation of the Pharisees who killed Jesus, and would view him as a criminal for his poverty, the type of people who are backing CIA-trained “death squads” in south america against the poor and anyone who advocates for them, some of these monsters’ hearts having been so hardened by the successful melding of Biblical verse with fascist imagery that they actually sing *hymns* while *torturing people to death* ..

The Bible says that the AntiChrist will emerge from just such an apostate church: check out Antipas Ministries for a dose of truth and a ray of hope.. i was referred to them by another poster here, and, though an agnostic, i have read the Bible several times over in my day and do strive to live my life in emulation of the character of Jesus, mythical or otherwise. it’s a vision i can idenitfy with and i believe Antipas represents it much more accruately than Luce and his allies in the Religious Right. any Christians out there truly desiring to walk the walk might want to give them a holler.

hey i understand what you talking about i didnt even go to the battlecry but belive me jesus never said he came to earth to bring peace but he also says thou shall not kill so no i dont think the war is right i also belive that everyone should have rights but when it comes to the whole anti-bush thing if bush has lied and you have proof then how come yall cant impeach him and if you dont have proof then yall need to chill cuz yall sound paronoid but look jesus said the greatest command is to love the lord your God with all your heart and all your might and he said the second greatest command was to love your neibor as yourself now about the whole     youth comment well duh it sounds like the     youth because     was one of the greatest speaker who ever lived but so was Dr. Martin Luther King J.R. so by you saying the speakers were like the     youth well then to me you seem you would compare it to the “I have a dream” speech

DGADO

One Love

I am not surprized at all that Christians are expanding the Iraq war with the organization and promotion of the “Battle Cry” propaganda.
Exodus chapter 15 verse 3 says; “God” is a man of war, the Lord is his name.
That is why religious fanatics are always creating and promoting “Wars for profit”.
Abraham invented Yahweh-God-Jehovah and from the begining he is a vindictive ferocious God. A God that does not abide by his own rules.
I am convinced that “if” he truly exsisted he would simply obliterate Satan. And be done with him, but Satan does not exsist either !
Jonathan

fauxreal: thanks for the article on “The Family” ..  my observation on that is that the Nietzschean philosophy from which the one participant “cut and ran” was precisely what awaited him at the end of his journey of self-discovery..

the things that shock us most are often the things that pertain most to ourselves - i admit to a grudging admiration of The Family: it’s what i myself would do if i were psychotically avaricious (as opposed to psychotically altruistic, lol) - this man abandoned medicine to study Nietzsche and Kierkegaard among others, fled in horror from their truths, sought solace in selected quotes from Jesus that encouraged gaining power by blind allegiance to same (“where am i going? come and see”), and downplayed the ones that spoke “explicitly”, like the dreaded “sell your things and give the proceeds to the poor”, to construct a philosophy of “playing it from the heart”, without the explicit constraints of what Jesus defined a “good heart” to be.. and when cornered simply creating their own definition of what “poor” was (namely, power mongers who’d not mastered the art of religious exploitation).

this philosophy amounts to “do as thou wilt”, which is a valid philosophy, but it’s social darwinism; which is satanic, not christian.

the phrase “it’s not that you lie, but WHY you lie”, is a direct quote from Nietzsche’s “Anti Christ” which defends the right of the powerful to lie for the “common good”, of which they, having the “greatest vision”, are the arbiters. it’s akin to Coe’s statement that “when you associate yourself with the name of Jesus, you can get away with *anything*”, in support of his glowing praise for Ghengis Khan’s practice of genocide against his opponents and Adolf Hitler’s “secret covenants”, and using Jesus’ “wineskin” parable (can’t pour new wine into an old skin) to vindicate it. 

my hypothesis? that faith is just an echo-chamber for the Will, and a strong will like that of the Family can turn any faith, regardless of dogma, into a mirror in which to observe their own Will.

this is precisely why they downplay
“christianity” in favour of “belief-ness”, because dogma is a means of accountability, but a belief in “Jesus” - defined as “he who says ‘stop asking questions and follow me’” - is simply an association of onesself with the power of God sans submission to any will but one’s own.

the Family, in short, seeks not to serve God but to BE God, and their service is that of self; their “gift” to the world is not that of charity (christian value) but that of “leadership”. 

in a democracy the government’s job is to represent the people, not to lead them and certainly not to *rule* them, which is why they abhor democracy and show their contempt with their emphasis on secrecy and submission to authority, two “core principles” of The Family. 

another insight i had into the “Bumping” thing is that it encourages the spoiling of others’ achievments: the basket is contructed so that even if you make a good shot, the point lasts only until someone is able to “take it away from you”; and there is no way to defend against this: if someone bumps your ball from the basket, it has nothing to do with your not having the skill to make the shot (say, accumulate a nice nestegg in a bank that folds, or contribute regularly to a pension fund made off with by an unscrupulous CEO, or spend a lifetime paying off a home only to have it grabbed by a wealthy developer in the name of “community improvement” ... nice shot, dude, but sorry, you’ve just been BUMPED..) ..

they can call it what they like but satanism is as satanism does and satanism’s credo is that of the Carny: using smoke and mirrors to enrich yourself. these people (the Family) are flat-out satanists, whether they realise it or not, and i’m not saying this as a christian, but as an agnostic with a parochial education who has studied and evaluated most of the world’s religions, including satanism.

the guy in the story that went to africa, he’s obviously a tortured soul wo wants to do right, but was caught unawares by his own “devil”, about whom the christian Bible warns: “he shall come disguised as a lamb” .. 

bottom line is that BattleCry, despite the best of intentions (giving them the benefit of the doubt here) to bring people to loving relationships with one another, is a potential breeding ground for this sort of thing because it encourages faith not so much in Jesus’ teachings but in the interpreters thereof, and therein lies the “bump” ..

thanks also Harry for the Antipas link, like you i may not share their faith but it’s refreshing to see a group of folks for whom faith is the road it was intended as rather than the vehicle most make of it..

to Stephen on your comment to Justine C. Obviously you like to take things out of context to fit your argument, and since we are not to cast pearls before swine(are you swine?) then maybe you are not worth speaking the Truth of the New Covenant Jesus had made with his deciples, and the decree to go and create more deciples to spread the gospels to both the jew AND the gentiles, meaning if you can comprehend it or if you ever read it means the non believer too! It grieves me to see someone trying to pervert someone elses belief in God just so when they are miserable in hell they would have company. Have fun in hell, for that is where i know you will go if you don’t ask God for forgiveness and don’t repent of your sins, may God have mercy on your soul.

To Justine C,

If you REALLY want to do what “God” commands, you will kill every person (the ‘unsaved’ or ‘non-Christians’ or ‘unculted’ ) who even hints at leading you from your faith.  Read Deuteronomy 13 (here’s a link - http://www.gainesvillehumanists.org/Deuteronomy13.htm).  Do you have the guts to REALLY follow your “God’s” teachings?  After all, even Jesus said he came not to bring peace, but a sword.
 
Truth by faith?  That’s an oxymoron!  Try using reason to find truth.  Faith is worthless in that pursuit.

Faith is deciding to allow yourself to believe something your intellect would otherwise cause you to reject—otherwise there’s no need for faith.

“Faith - the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime.”—Rich Bennett

Faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich

“Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel.”—Ambrose Bierce

“Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate.”—F.M. Knowles

“Faith is a cop-out. It is intellectual bankruptcy. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can’t be taken on its own merits.”—Dan Barker, preacher turned atheist

“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”—Stephen Roberts

It’s this us against them concept that I have the big problem with.  If you are indeed “fishers of men” you must be fishing with dynamite and if you are fishing with dynamite there aren’t going to be any souls left to save when you are done trying to save them with your fishing.

No, I think I much better approach is to consider each person as potentially good that can be influenced in one direction or another.

Teenagers are especially vulnerable to peer pressure and when you are out with your friends you can have good clean fun and when invited to do wrong politely decline and encourage others to decline.

But viewing the world as us against them is an elitist view that smacks of dangerous fundamentalism that tolerates nothing.

Charm and good manners go a long ways towards impressing people that you are sincere and mean no harm.  Being smug is a real turn off.

Name calling is especially a big turn off.

Okay this is what I have to say…

To the ‘unsaved’ or ‘non-Christians’ or ‘unculted’ or whatever you would call yourselves: 
We are in a battle against world.  But us; as Bible-believing Christians; are fighting this battle but not in the violent way that you guys think…
We are called by God to fight for our generations hearts and to fight we mean to pray and to not be silent,
to stand up for what we know IS TRUTH…I don’t care whether you admit it or not but it is TRUTH and you WILL stand before the Almight God when you die and you WILL go to HELL if you have not accepted Jesus Christ into your heart to cleanse you of your sin.  That is fact by faith I guess I would say. Whether you choose to believe or not is your choice and thats the way God made it, He wanted us to have a choice.  He wants us to love Him but He gives us our choice.

For the so-called ‘journalist’:
Your are a big jerk!!!
Im sorry but I must agree with some of the comments already made…even made by non-Christians.  If you wanted to bash Ron so much why were you so scared to go and talk to him directly about your opinion.  In my opinion, you are a coward.  And I believe that you were scared because even if you don’t admit it, you know that God is REAL and He is the only one who can save you from HELL and that God is TRUTH.  You just don’t want to admit it…I will be praying for you as much as I don’t want to, God tells me to, so I will be praying for you salvation…once your eyes are opened, you will see God’s grace and mercy upon us.

To all of my brothers and sisters in Christ:
Don’t give up whatever you do…We are called to be fishers of men and to fight this battle without violence and hate.  We are called to be different than this world so when you are fighting for this generation’s hearts, don’t be hateful towards those who do not believe.  Their eyes have yet to be opened and may never be, just keep them in your prayers.  Showing them hate and anger is not going to win their hearts we cannot be silent but we shouldn’t no cannot hate…God tels us we are never to hate so stand up for God and don’t be scared, just do it in LOVE.

To Ron Luce:
May God bless you abundantly in your work.  I will pray for you to stand firm in love and concern for the world’s salvation.  God Bless

I AM A CHRISTIAN AND I KNOW THAT JESUS CHRIST AND GOD ARE REAL AND I WILL FIGHT FOR OUR GENERATION’S HEARTS BUT I WILL DO IT IN LOVE AND RESPECT.  I WILL PRAY AND SPEAK AND TELL ALL OF MY FAITH AND OF THE TRUTH.  JESUS CHRIST IS TRUTH AND GOD IS TRUTH AND THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO HEAVEN.

Be still and know that HE IS GOD,
Justine

If its a peaceful movement than why does that guy have a gun?  I thought “God” was you weapon.  Fundamentalists like that guy (whatever that leader guys name is) arent trying to “save” you. Hes building himself his own army for his own personal reasons and is using god as a front, or worse, he actually belives all of that self-rightous Bull***t.  Most likely it will die down in a year or two. The website claims they are the army of god for crying out loud.  Reminds me of the radical islamic jihadists to me.

I am a Christian. I guess you would probably call me a Battle Cry “infected” youth. You know what though I like being “infected” by the battle cry movement. I love God and I don’t care who knows it or who doesn’t agree with it. You think you had made a point when Ron Luce didn’t answer you. The only point you made is that you need God in your life. I hope that you find him some day. I don’t agree with your view of Battle Cry or Teen Mania Ministries. I think if there were more people like us and less people like you the world might just be a nicer place to live. Also nobody ever said that to rally together as christians you have to kill people. In fact murder is a sin. The Nazis killed people. Blitzkreig is just one of the ways to show how we will wage our “war”. We don’t need guns or weapons of mass destruction. We have God.  So you know what “We ARE Warriors!” and we will “fight” people like you until only we are left. God will reign victorious. “We will not be stopped our voices will be heard this generation is the Lords!”

I have attended at least four of Ron Luce’s huge “Acquire the Fire” Christian-Rally events, from the perspective of a non-Christian. (IE my folks forced me to go). This article hits the mentality spot on.

The Acquire the Fire ralley, which is far more intense than Battlecry’s three hour length, invokes deep emotional responses instead of ones formed by rational thought. They induce sleep deprivation over a period of several days - the rallies begin very early in the morning and go until extremely late at night. There’s a huge us-vs-them mentality, saying everyone that isn’t part of the group is hopelessly lost and going to hell.

Several of the rallies have had sessions of smashing secular music CDs throwing away ‘bad’ books. The discarded material is innocuous, just thrown out because they weren’t written by Christian artists. They keep repeating that our generation is lawless, dying, in crisis, and that the only way to save them is through this passionate, strong-armed evangelism.

However… The rallies are really just a front for recruiting for the internship, which is actually a cult without the weird sex. I know…. my sister was in it.

Imagine this: You pay a ton of money to go to a tiny town in the middle of Texas, where there’s nothing else around except this organization. There, you work. You work very hard, for no money and with no limit on the hours per week. You work on producing media, you answer phones, you pray, you do physical work, you attend events, you organize events, and you exercise. A lot. If you’re “lucky” you get to help run the rallies. Every little thing you do is regulated by the higher ups there, stricter than the military. There is a ladder-type system of control, with Ron Luce at the top. While you’re there, Ron Luce is God, and so is anyone above you in the ladder. You eat, sleep, breathe Bible for the whole time you’re there. And the kicker… You have extremely limited contact with your outside family - Most of the time it’s because you’re just too busy. You don’t have time to think, or talk to anyone on the outside.

Sound like a cult to you? If you don’t believe me on any of this, go to http://www.teenmania.org/ it’s THEIR website.

Re: Stupid Puppy

It is sad that anyone would have to say this but…The connection of certain symbolism with the Nazi party is undeniable. The Swastika is a Buddhist symbol of peace but that doesn’t really change the powerful negative connotation it carries because Hitler usurped the symbol. Blitzkrieg,as well, wherever it originated, is indelibly associated with the Nazi’s. In case you aren’t aware of it, the words jet, rocket, and computer don’t carry those connotations. Would the words cotton and plantation evoke the same emotional response that N——R would? In your argument the answer would be yes, which could result in some severe social problems for you if you aren’t able to make that distinction.

You also suggest that somehow Hitler’s rabid xenophobic nationalism had nothing to do with his choices to pursue conquest of his neighbors or elimination of the Jews. Fascists tend to make fascist choices and pursue fascist policies, as is demonstrated not only by Hitler, but by our current administration and the Pharisseac religious right. It clearly was nationalism, right wing propaganda, and disrespect for democracy that allowed Hitler to gain power and execute the agenda dictated by those philosphies on a grand scale. So when we see that same fascist philosophy gaining acceptence in our country we are indeed faced with the same choice that the German citizens were confronted with during Hitler’s rise to power. An article such as this one serves as a wake up call for those of us who still respect democracy. It is appropriate that we think of Hitler as we watch this new neocon fascism rising. Will we abet its rise by making specious arguments about jets, rockets and computers, or will we stand up and resist as events like this begin the transformation of the crucified Jesus into the new Swastika? For a large part of the world that transformation may already be complete.