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I’m curious about something. If an American citizen has an auto accident with an illegal immigrent involving loss of life and serious injury, who pays medical expenses and damages?

I am a naturalized citizen who got here through my parent’s immigration in the 1950’s.  It makes me disgusted when others mention immigrants who “played by the rules” or “waited their turn”, ect.  The poor of Mexico or from other Latin Countries would have no chance of being accepted here legally.  My father was educated and we could have lived comfortably in the country we came from except my parents feared the Soviet Union.  But a Mexican, Guatemalan or other Central American are not comfortable at all to wait patiently.
Another thing that makes me mad is the total ignorance of our history with Latin America whereby the US took the prerogative to keep or place governments to its liking in power in Latin countries no matter how bad these governments were to the people.  The US has blocked any reforms in Latin America that would have given hope to the people there. 
Even today, elected leaders who dfy US interests and chose to take care of their own people, are public enemy number one.
Shut down the borders, deport everyone but then keep out of the affairs of our neighbors to the south.  The old Soviet Union used to do that to Eastern Europe.  America should stop treating Latin America like the countries are its satellites.

IMMIGRATION 4220 ADVANCED THEORY
Open and free immigration has been used by amoral capital to break the back of middle america.
Sadly we must send our fellow workers back home until labor can leverage wages back to a life sustaining level. Then we can orderly welcome back our brothers and sisters as card holding union members not the inadvertent scabs they are now.

Well, Molly and I are on different sides on this one.
Not that anyone else cares.
Molly has adopted the mudslinging approach by calling me a demagogue and an ass and she does not even know me. Of course , I never actually said that a fence would solve the whole problem. But you know what? A fence would be a good start. Certainly better than Molly’s fantasy that we open and close the borders like a valve for the labor we need. If true, let’s close it now.
How about we actually do something to prevent 11 million undocumented workers from being here?
Besides what is wrong with being an American? I sure would like to know.
Molly, get your head around this issue. It is not about racism. It is about 11 million people who would rather be citizens of some other country and live here in America illegally.
Molly, I want everyone to be an American if they live here permanently. Why don’t you?
I do not care if martians move to Memphis, if they stay they should become Americans. Can foreign nationals live here their entire life without being an American? Ok, but you know what? They need to be legal.

How ‘bout we just take the next $67 billion Bush earmarks for Haliburton and divide it up equally amongst the illegals, deport them to Mexico where they will start their own businesses.  Then, the corporate wellfare will be stripped from the sugar and grain industry’s and that money can be used to start rebuilding the damage done right here in America during the gloomy Bush years.  No longer will CEO’s be allowed to milk a dying cow and retire in Colorado on 500,000 acres of heaven.  It’s nearing time, people. The country is in dire need of being taken back.

I think we are dealing with false choices, driven by outmoded Blue State / Red State ideologies. As near as I can figure there are three solutions … and they should be used together.

Stabilize. Build a fence or a wall that defines and closes a porous border with checkpoints at various points for legal entry. Of course it won’t keep them all out but it will slow them down. But it can’t be the only strategy. Stop the bleeding.

Naturalize. Put every immigrant currently in the country on a program to naturalize him or her (something like Bush is suggesting). Not amnesty, but a process. Republicans and Democrats can fight it out on the exact policy but they can come up with one.

Penalize. Get really serious about punishing anyone that hires an illegal. (Like Ivins says) We never hear the justification go one level deeper than business likes them. Of course they do, they’re cheap. But what would really be the impact be if they didn’t? How much more would strawberries cost (or housing, for that matter) if there were no illegal immigrants working in those businesses for substandard wages? What positive impact would that have on wages and national productivity?

Would my berries costs .25 cents a pound more? Add up all the added costs that businesses argue are “benefits” to me in every part of my life. Does that total cost me more than dealing with the impact of illegal and uncontrolled immigration? And by the way, wouldn’t it be a nice competitive opportunity for some businesses to say that they use no illegal immigrants? Some food processors use no preservatives. Some carpet importers guarantee they use no child labor. And people pay a premium for it. It could be a marketing advantage for some.

This is solvable, but NOT inside the narrow framework of ideology.

Re: bob wire

Why is it that Reactionaries are so literal; having no sense of irony, sarcasm, or humor?  Have you ever noticed that?

Here’s another point of view—appears that racism is not a “for Americans only” attitude:

Illegal Americans Marching in Mexico City
Tuesday, March 28, 2006 (13:24:15)
Americans Marching on Mexico City.

(The Americas Press Agency, March 29, 2006)

Thousands of Americans residents in Mexico marched on Mexico City; and hundreds more marched on other Latin American capitals to protest what they perceive to be the unfair treatment they have been receiving in those countries.

“We cannot work here”, complained John Smith, a resident of Tijuana. “They tell me: “Mexico is supposed to be for Mexicans.” “I have applied for many jobs here, at restaurants, and also at factories. I have run out of my savings and explained to them that I had a family to feed. They were laughing at me and showed me the door. They said that non-citizens were not eligible to work here. “You are not a Mexican”, they said. The owner of the factory got angry at me and screamed on top of his voice- “Yankee, go home”!

Jane Johnson, a long time resident in San Juan, Costa Rica, has lost her job with the American company where she had been working for the past four years. She had been trying to find work with the local company, but was told that “All the opportunities in our country are for Ticos (Costa Ricans)”, and that “Americans are not eligible to work here”, “We do not hire foreigners!” “What will I do?” complained Jane, “I have no money and I must go back to my country. These people are racist. They won’t give me a job. Not even one of them”.

Steven Jefferson, a resident in Guatemala City has complained that when he went to the local hospital he was not able to get free treatment there. “They said that I actually had to pay for the medical exam. That is preposterous! I deserve free medical treatment! And how come nobody speaks English here and there are no signs and brochures in English? English is the language of the world! How come these people do not speak it?”

Many Americans were carrying star-spangles banners and singing “Oh, say can you see…”

Police with dogs and water cannon, aided by the local immigration officials with batons and night sticks started dispersing the demonstrators. There were army trucks nearby and riot troops were called in. The protests attracted crowds of angry local onlookers many of whom were chanting “Gringos! Go back to your country!” Some members of the crowd grabbed the American flags that the protesters were carrying and started stomping on them. Many hit the Americans while shouting “You accursed Yankees, get out of our country!” at them.

Robert Ferguson, an American resident in another Latin American city had this to say: “When I came here with money and stayed at five-star hotels, they were treating me so nicely, and everybody was so friendly to me and respectful and all that. I had dates with beautiful ladies. I was like a king here. When I ran out of money, the people turned into devils. The smiles just disappeared. They are treating me like a dog now. Nobody will give me a job. I have been to hundreds of places. Here, if your last name is not Gomez, Lopez, or Rodriguez, you cannot work anywhere. Nobody will even consider you. They do not want a poor American, a poor foreigner to be a burden on their economy. They are so nationalistic and racist! What can I do? I am starving. Please, American Embassy, take me home! Somebody, please help! You can send me money by Western Union”.

Jose Rodriguez, a Mexican citizen, has commented- “They come to our country and they want jobs? But this is our country. They have no right to be here. They are only guests here. Yankees, go back home! We don’t want you here! Come with money or get out! We do not need a poor Gringo competing with the locals! “Mexico is para los Mexicanos!” Viva Mexico!”

Col. Jorge Perez of the local anti-riot forces had this to say: “We’re going to get every one of these darn Gringo foreigners, and deport them within days”. The ones that survive our jails and torture chambers, that is. We do not like to release cripples; it makes our country look bad. We, Mexicans, are nice people if you are rich, but don’t you dare come here and look for work! We don’t like indigents. And also, if you overstay your visa and are in the country illegally we have special treatment for you. It will make the Spanish Inquisition look like kids camp”.

Many arrests were made and reports of beatings, vicious canine attacks, torture in police dungeons and deportations have reached the US embassy. The American Ambassador had this comment: ‘They are racists! They do not want to give our citizens jobs. We are friends and good neighbors. Why are they doing it? We, Gringos, are so nice to them. We give them all these factory jobs and then amnesty. I will lodge a protest with the United Nations tomorrow!”

Several Americans, severely beaten and chased by angry Latin American citizens and policemen were banging on the US Embassy’s doors screaming “Help! They are going to kills us! Help!”

James Brown, a US worker who had the audacity to look for a job in Mexico, barely escaped an attack by two German shepherds unleashed on him by the Mexican police and was now recuperating inside the Embassy compound. “I am an American”, he complained. “Mexico is in the Americas just like our country. They are a nation of immigrants, too. The Indians are originally from Siberia and then, the Spanish are from Europe. There are so many people here whose origins are from other countries; people whose ancestors are Portuguese and French. And Vicente Fox has an English name. I have an uncle whose last name is Fox. We do not want much here. We just want to work and build this country and send some money from here to the US. The ladies are so beautiful, and if you have a little bit of money, the people are so friendly. So, I just want to work and live here. What’s wrong with that? But they beat me so bad and they have tortured me. They said that if I did not pay a bribe, they would not release me. I had ten dollars and I gave it to them. They let me out, but had set two vicious mutts on me and they were chasing me all the way to the Embassy. It is all about fairness. Mexicans come to our country to work. So, we want to go to their country to work. We want to live in Mexico, make money, have kids and also, get some medical care. Is that too much to ask for?”

Some people have also reportedly demonstrated in several American cities in front of the consulates of Mexico, Guatemala, and Costa Rica chanting: “Racists! Racists! Human rights for Gringos! Human rights for Americans!”, but there has been little press coverage of the event.

Reported by Jose Smith in Mexico City
and John Rodriguez in San Jose, Costa Rica.

http://www.expatfocus.com/index.php?name=Blogs&mod e=display&id=321

It’s funny Molly Ivans should bring up the topic of Chili, because she is full of beans.  Conservatives are not ‘anti-immigrant’.  My father in law spent 5 years in a refugee camp in the 50’s waiting for someone in America to sponsor him so he could come here LEGALLY.  He’s never taken public assistance of any kind.  There were no signs at the market, the bank, the hardware store, public buildings - anywhere in his language.  He diligently learned English and paid off every dime of his debt.  He assimilated into the melting pot and considers himself an AMERICAN - not a hyphenated something or other.  Racial Identity Politics is the bane of progress for any ethnic group that practices it.  When my father-in-law sees the Mexican flags being hoisted in these Communist inspired public rallies - it infuriates him.  And it should motivate all of us who care about law and order and fairness.  Amnesty, Open Borders, and the racism behind this invasion sponsored by the completely corrupt nation of Mexico screws everybody except the employers of illegals and those so-called ‘immigrants rights groups’.  The time to let your Senator and Congressman know how you feel is NOW!!

Chicago Suntimes reports that Iraq veterans and reservists can’t find jobs.  Maybe its because the illegals filled their jobs when they were over there doing their duty.

Bob Wire is how it’s referred to in some parts of the country, so Molly is not just a person talking that has no clue what they’re saying.

This is a middle ground post.

I’ve been to several blog sites and the comments are almost completely “clamp the borders,” left and right.  Particularly, Lou Dobbs was defended, to which I agree, almost entirely.

This is such a complex issue that I hope this discussion continues.  It cuts like a razor across party lines.  It is a discussion of where we, as Americans, want to go as a country.

My ancestors came here at the end of the 19. century (Norwegian).  I have had the privilege of volunteering for the Galveston Historical Society at a geneology convention, where I learned how profound the motivations and risks (family of five goes into unknown/dangerous territory, perhaps never to be heard from again, yet great great nieces asked about specific people, so we know they survived and prospered) were for coming to this country.  I believe that those motivations are in full effect today. 

I also grew up in Cleveland, OH, where our soccer team played against all the immigrant groups.  It was such an enlightening experience to hear second and third gen kids translating for their parents as we American kids (great hospitality at these games) asked about the “Old Country” and why they come to be in Cleveland of all places.

This is a GREAT country.  It is the beacon to the rest of the world with respect to opportunity and self-fulfillment.  Resolving this debate will continue to make it so.

OK, so get to the point you say.  The complexity is this, in order of importance to me:

-Sucking the economic life out of the middle class, out of sheer quantity and the “less than zero sum game” at the moment.
-Encouraging the vibrancy of this country through immigration.
-The complete disregard for the damage being done to this country by an open borders policy to meet both right elites (low wages) and left elites (base politics) political needs.  This means the complete sacrifice of people that are here now (and can vote, the economic realities in the RED STATES should any Dems be interested) to meet some percieved future political benefit.
-Compassion and recoginition of the contributions of immigrants (legal or otherwise) - good.
-Mexican flags in immigration demonstrations - bad.

The heat of this discussion is motivated by Clinton’s signing NAFTA and the unfulfilled promises related thereto, the (love him or hate him) Perot (correct) notion of the “giant sucking sound” as we are losing $15B/MONTH of national wealth to free (re: unfair for the middle class) trade, the Trillion+ dollars of investment and productivity that has been taken from this country as a result.  Money which could be spent on middle class/immigrant services, at no penalty to current taxpayers.

A Trillion dollars is a lot of money to send to China, India, and Mexico.  If we were not sending this cash overseas, this would be a much more reasonable debate. 

People’s anger is about our inability/unwillingness to clamp down on our financial and physical borders and get control of the issues.  And then decide.

Thanks Molly.  You’re a thought provoking National Treasure.

FWIW…

Maybe if they would have placed barbed wire on top of the fence instead of “Bob Wire” the fence might have been more effective. At least it could have lengthened the time it took to climb over the fence!

I agree with Sid - the proper term is “barbed wire.” Once I read “bob wire,” I could read no further.  Ignorance is very unbecoming a national busybody such as Molly.  And for Howard Truedog - it’s time to stop using your Texas upbringing as an excuse for bad English.  Welcome to the 21st century!

To Lendgren,
I’m not a democrat or a republican.  I’m not locked into liberalism nor am I a proponent of conservatism. I feel that each issue has it’s own set of circumstances and solutions can’t always be based on a liberal approach or conservative ideology exclusively. If a bridge wasn’t built to sway in each direction it will collapse, much like the American civilization is poised to do. The democrats may be trying to expand and solidify the latino vote but the republicans are atttemting to expand the wealth of the ruling class.  Both of these motivations are predatory toward the hard working legal American citizens.  It is time for both ideologies in this country to come together and fight for the common good of all legitimate Americans and realize that we are not represented by the republicans or the democrats.  They both survive to represent the ruling class by pitting both ideologies against each other. While we fight and hate each other down here on the streets of America they are squandering and misappropriating the wealth of our nation and they are boxing all of us into a form of peasantry that will make serfs of all of us.  If we don’t put our societal differences aside and fight this effort to establish a quasi-royalty that sucks the lifeblood out of all working Americas we will lose evrything gained since the declaration of indepeddence was engineered.

Can’t have it both ways, Mr. President!
The same Constitution on which you rely to justify the NSA wiretaps (Which I fully agree with),
also directs you to protect our borders from foreign invasion, by whatever means necessary. It says nothing about people “doing jobs Americans won’t do”, “we can’t just deport 11 million people”, or “Amnesty” for law-breakers, disguised as “Guest worker programs”. The Constitution says that you will protect our borders, and enforce our laws. If you don’t have the guts to do it, we the people, under our 2nd Amendment rights will have to do it ourselves.

I may have missed it, but I didn’t see anyone point out that perhaps if WE AMERICANS stopped thinking we had a right to take resources from every other country in the world (or undercut local farmers and producers with cheap goods), thereby supporting governments that help us to rape their people and their land, Mexicans and other folks might prefer to stay home and live decent lives in their own countries. The wistfulness I met with in NYC when I told immigrants in my neighborhood that I was going home to my little bit of land in Maine was staggering. Guess what? They all wanted the same thing! They didn’t have an overwhelming desire to push brooms or run a bodega in NYC, but when you can’t make a living raising chickens anymore because the U.S. is flooding your country with cheap, government-subsidized factory chickens (this is happening, folks), one option is to go north and look for work.

I am hoping some of the comments are coming from people with a sense of satire. Otherwise, Americans are as stupid and brutal as the rest of the world thinks, I guess.

I got a 5 step plan for solving this whole delima.
Step 1:
Get Bush out of power
Step 2:
Deport every man,woman,and child of non-american descent back to the country they came from.
Step 3:
Have those countries do the same to all americans.
Step 4:
(a way to elimate the need of a border patrol or fence)
Shoot anyone not of american descent spotted on U.S. soil after deportation no questions asked. And just to be fair,allow other countries to do the same to any american found in their country.
Step 5:
Stop all “trading” with foreign countries.
No more “You give us oil,we give you.....”
Let’s prove that we can survive on our own.
Let them do the same,and may the weakest die first!

Yeah, I think you might be right about that fence--it probably won’t work. A much better solution is to arm the American citizens who live on the border to the teeth, and give them the authority to shoot anyhone crossing the border illegally--that’ll slow them down.

After all, our government is supposed to be protecting us, and they are not doing it--that means the elitists in Washington, DC are really traitors.

I am reminded of a statement John Knox made to Queen Mary when she pleaded with him to keep the Protestants from taking up the sword against Catholic priests: “The sword of justice is God’s, and if princes and rulers fail to use it, others may” (Christian History [Issue 46] Vol. XIV, No. 2).

When the citizens of this country have finally had enough, the people in Washington, DC should be afraid, very afraid. Americans are not like the passive Canadians or sissy Europeans, and that does not bode well for the lawless or those who aid them.

deport the illegal aliens. we have plenty of welfare recipients and other underemployed people to do the work the illegals do now. i’ll gladly pay more for groceries to reduce taxes by getting the illegals out of our schools, hospitals and prisons. they are breaking this country’s financial back.

If they want to come to the USA so bad, let them join our military forces. Serve 4, 5 or 6 years, be released with an honorable discharge and they would be American citizens at that point in life. Heck, they want the work; serve 20 years and retire. If they are released for any reason other than a honorable discharge, they would go back to Mexico.

The solution is to fine any business employing illegal immigrants $50,000-75,000 per criminal immgrant.

Or we could do it the way that has kept north korea out of south korea for half a century,
millions of land mines.
Lets see them “climb” that fence!!!
boom!!!

There really is a simple solution.

1. Declare all Citizens of the world US citizens.

Sounds like a major deal, but we routinely grant most folks here all the benefists of citizenship anyway, just to be fair. the Dems want to grant those rights even to those who were caught red handed shooting at our soldiers.

2. There are no more non-citizens.
Now there will be no way for the CEO’s to get rich of the poor non-citizens who broke our Laws, because there are no non-citizens.

3. Eliminate all check points.

4. We no longer need an army, or any of their expensive toys.
We can save a lot of money.

The Dems might not like this proposal though, These new citizens could now vote Republican. Only Dems register Illegals to vote now.
Downside, no more special set asides for illegals.

But to get their votes the Dems could create a new class of victims, How about “New citizens”.  Since they have been discriminate for over 200 years, we need special programs to help them catch up to the old citizens

To those who say this would destroy the US, I say quit being racist. That has been the effect of the Liberals policy, if not their goal, for years.

We don’t have to have guilt feelings about wanting to keep our country, our jobs, our resources, our security, our language, and our dignity. I understand the conditions that brought the illegals into our country but our government passed NAFTA, against the wishes of many Americans and this was supposed to help eliminate this problem. It didn’t work because of greed and corruption in the Mexican government and the US government. Our quality of life has been impacted by the exporting of our jobs and manufacturing capabilities because of NAFTA. All the worldwide humanitarian efforts by our government are phony.  We only make these efforts where we have an interest in some sort of foreign resource.
The bottom line is that we need to take care of Americans first.  We are the ones who are in line for the American dream and we should have priority over any political representation that will make our lives better.
If it were my call I would shut down immigration for two years while we got a handle on this “illegal” immigration and when we re-opened our country to immigration we would start with those in line right now and then carefully screen evry applicant so that we are not taking in those who don’t want to assimilate into our culture and become a contributing citizen to our nation.

We need to stop the MEAN-SPIRITED downward spiral of this debate and reach deep for some good old-fashioned COMPASSION and FELLOW FEEELING (aka FRATERNITÉ).

Time to grab on to our humanness and sculpt it into feelings and actions that move toward the BETTERMENT OF THE LOT OF ALL HUMANS.

Comment #6187 by James Diaz
As a numbers person, I’d like to throw some high-level figures...$93Billion pays for rent/house, car payments, food, electricity, etc.
- they still would contribute approximately $3.7 billion to state governments via sales taxes.

UH, how about:

Comment #6218 by Carl
Mexicans send $ 20 billion dollars back to Mexico each year it is Mexicos 2nd largest income producer after oil.

Which gives us a net negative of 16.3B!  according to your own figures!

Comment #6201 by Art Hurt
Let us not create a huge army of malcontents.

The army is here.

Personally, I think that the NeoConquistidors will bring civil war to America if we don’t stop them. 

In case you think I am just a racist and can be dismissed, take a loonng look at those demonstrators carrying Mexican flags, signs that say they want our southwest cleased of ‘white invaders’.  I am not stating every Jose or Maria is in league with them, but some are.  Some may not even realize the message.  Some just think it is a fringe. 

You see I don’t stereotype, like you’all do.

ALL illegal aliens are just hard working people looking for an opportunity.  Just like ALL Moslems are peaceful people.  Just like ALL African-Americans have been oppressed.  Just like ALL rednecks are stupid.  YET YOU AIN’T RACISTS??!!

Saying that we shouldn’t build a fence because some will defeat the purpose and be able to climb over it, uses false logic!  Using this premise to everything that we do will negate all security measures.  If we put a lock on our front doors, some will be able to pick the lock.  Install a security system and some will be able to turn it off.  Hire body guards to protect someone and one of them might be corrupt and the thief is inside already.

Everything is defeatable!!!

Nothing is totally preventable!!!

But we do our best and try as hard as we can for the money that we have and that is all that we can do.  And if our best measures only stop 95% of the criminals that come out way, then that is pretty good!

So if we only stopped half of the million illegals that come into this country every year, then that is 500,000 that wouldn’t make it in!

FENCE HELL, PUT A BOUNTY ON THE ILLEGAL BASTARDS, DEAD OR ALIVE.

There are plenty of job’s in Mexico,it’s called outsourcing!! I’m a former GM employee,and most of the part’s in not only GM car’s made there,all the auto industry is there.My dodge truck was made in Mexico!

I usually agree with most of what Molly writes,but this time she’s WAYYY off the mark!As an Arizona resident,I see way too many illegal immigrant’s around the state.I don’t even like that term,immigrant’s..should be alien’s.As far as amnesty,what part of ILLEGAL don’t you people understand?? They don’t all come here to work,really!Maybe work in the drug dealing,burglary,car theft.. Arizona is number one in car thefts in the nation.Why? they can drive them to a chop shop in mexico in 4 hours or less! I say build the wall,skip the barbed wire,use machine gun’s! I’m sure Colt is making plenty of M16’s for Iraq,just add an extra shift to supply the Minutemen!

What is the Latin name for the fallacy Molly commits when she states “conservatives are against all immigration for the same reasons they always have been”, and leaves it at that.

It may well be correct that just building a fence won’t work. I don’t think many people are in favor of just building a wall and leaving it alone. Rather it would have increased security etc. etc. So it is difficult to cull a point from this claim. And Molly, are you for or against closing the borders or making them more difficult to cross? Would you favor a massive overhaul of the legal process accompanied by slowing the illegal process?

Someone made a comment attempting to point out hypocrisy based on opposing the U.N. Well, if an employer who looked at forged documents was jailed as Molly suggests, how does that sit with the bleeding hearts who always come down on the side of the criminal regardless how heinous the crime. Selective as usual…now that’s hypocrisy. It’s liberal recreation to bash CEO’s but most of the workers don’t work for huge corporations, rather lawn service crews and builders, gold course maintenance and restaurants, dry cleaners and housekeepers. I am the fat cat CEO of one of those little operations and I have impeccably completed I-9 forms (funny most of you “experts” probably don’t even know what that is), and even above the requirement, photocopies of the needed documents (green cards, drivers license, SS card, etc.) on file. If an illegal therefore has managed to slip by me I cannot know it. Unless you favor a taxpayer funded document vetting training class for all Americans, your assertions are merely rhetoric. 

People are not saying Mexicans cannot assimilate, rather that they WILL NOT. Big difference. One claim says stubborn, the other stupid. I say stubborn. I live in Texas, I speak Spanish, and I am a white American. I am “in the culture” more than anyone who travels to Big Bend to climb a wall and drink some Lone Star. Mostly the talking heads are ignorant. And to suggest that Texas has no services is silly.

I love liberal arguments. Just state your opinion in its extreme and wallow in it.

The need for new immigration law is fraudulent. This problem is the result of Bush ordering those responsible for deportation of illegals to stand down.
Policing our borders should be dealt with, primarily, as a national security threat. We have created a no fly zone around Washington D.C. to protect our capitol and those who run the country. The same precaution should be taken to protect our homeland and our legal citizenry. A no tresspass zone should be set up at our borders with bilingual signage stating that tersspassing will be dealt with using lethal force. No one should be permitted to enter our country illegally.
I want to know what jobs Americans won’t do. You will find Americans to do any job for a fair wage. Illegals are doing drywall, framing, roofing , electrical, plumbing, landscaping and a variety of other jobs that Americans would stand in line to fill. It’s all about larger profits for business.
If there exists some type of labor void in agriculture then fill it with seasonal workers who come into the country on a seasonal visa and return home when the work is done.
Deporting 12 million plus illegals is tauted as an impossible task.  They didn’t get here over nite and we shouldn’t expect to get rid of them overnite. The first step is to severely punish those who aid and abet the breaking of our immigration laws, particularly those who hire illegals. Second provide zero social programs to any non-Americans. These two steps alone would force millions to return home.  Next, any illegal caught up in our legal system should do time if the offense is serious and then deported and those who get caught doing lesser crimes should be documented and sent back to their home country. A date should be set for all illegals to voluntarily return home.  If they are caught here after that date they can never be considered for citizenship.
Legitimate Americans deserve better than what is being offered by Congress.  Americans have already paid dearly because Bush shunned his responsibility of enforcing immigration laws. Americans should take to the streets and be counted so that Bush and Congress see who truly have rights in America and who they are paid to represent.

ITS TRUE. FENCES MAKE GOOD NEIGHBORS. THOSE THAT BUILD THE FENCES KNOW THIS AND WILL ALWAYS CHARGE A PRICE THE HYSTERICAL NEIGHBOR WHO HATES THE OTHER NEIGHBORS A HELL OF PREMIUM FOR IT. LIKE MOLLY SAYS ITS GOOD FER BIDNESS.

Are we really sure the fence is to keep them out or keep us in? Hard to tell these days.

Now I can understand how the Native Indian must have felt. Funny how history will continue to repeat itself.

You build the wall high enough, and make it’s foundations deep enough, and it absolutely WILL work 99.999 percent of the time.  I usually agree with Molly, but sorry, not this time.

What illegal immigrants are (and should NOT be)getting away with is ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!

The demand should be simple: open the borders and give working people the same right to move around the world as business leaders and their money have, regardless of their nationality or the color of their skin.
Abolish the border patrol

The immigration issue is making the idea of a police state more and more palatable to too many, exacerbating the pernicious influence of “the war on terror.” The rest of us need to seek out and support rational alternatives to barricades and criminalization.  One would be granting immediate legal residency to all “illegals” already here, without further ado and without restriction on further immigration.  Instead of repressing workers’ ability to seek out jobs, emphasis should be on enforcing existing labor and tax laws on employers.  That would equalize the playing field between pre-existing “Americans” and new arrivals, and would probably reduce the demand for “cheap” labor that is what attracts immigrants in the first place.  It could also clarify that workers’ problems are not with each other but with the social and economic structures that they live under in their respective countries of origin.

Once again Molly said the obvious, at lease to me.  And Comments from James #6165 articulated better then I.
Fences make good neighbors only because they remind us of rules to live by and not that they keep anyone or thing on their own side.  Go to the source of the problem.  Corporate and other Greed!  Cut the cancer out or be doomed to revisit it again in a few years.  Is it harder to keep the companies that file taxes obay the law or 11 million people with a false paper trail?  If the companies where held responsible for their acts they may find it easier and less expensive to hire residence or legal visitor and pay a decent price for the work instead of sizable fines and tax penalties.  Don’t let the Powers That Be fool you because in this day of tech and data banking it cannot be that hard to know who you are hiring. 

I may not be Balanced but I try To Be Fair:
CEO’s and corp. heads are seen as drawing a large income and never at their desk.  But even though they could not last a day in an artichoke field, we must remember that conniving, confiscatory (read it in the New Yorker, good enough for me) and cheating can be strenuous work. Ask Cheney!

I truly believe that this administration has a problem with reality.  Most of us are to blame also, when we refuse to pay a higher price for luxury items or our gardeners and maids.  Luxury comes after food, shelter and medical!  If you cant wrap your head around that its because like most Americans we cant see over your SUV or visa bill.

If We Must Have Fence and boarder control:
Instead of a wall or fence, would it not be smarter to use cable and set up sensors?  Does anyone have one of those light sensors on their driveway?  We have navigators in cars.  When a silent alarm goes off you could navigate to that point.  Would it be so hard to set one that registers size or weight?  Creating new jobs comes to mind. I think we could afford to have sensor systems checked frequently.  Just until we get our Mexican/USA worker system up and running like a clock.  Hell, you might even catch a terrorist that couldn’t find Canada on Map Quest. 

Turn the tables:
Why are we making deals with China, Korea and Dubai and not working with our neighbors that could do the same jobs?  Every day and night, thousands are sneaking in our back doors disrupting our household systems to keep from starving because we have not address the problem truthfully.  We could make more jobs for technology, teaching, installing, and then trading etc.  You know teaching them to fish, helping a neighbor and finding things in common.  A much smaller group that we helped that we had little in common with grow got in the front door, got a fluky because once again, we were asleep. Then our small-minded leader & friends invades a country with no exit plan.  They preached fear until we believed them and started acting like them.  Now we are accused of xenophobia for facing reality and finding answers to hard questions they cant figure out.

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Albert Einstein.

Gota love that go old GOP attitude of it’s my war on terror, my democracy, my cronies, my family, my beliefs, my gov, my party, MY REALITY, my God, my way or the HWY.

Molly I almost always agree with you, and what you say here is true.However I doubt if we need draconian measures to stop “bidness"from hiring illegals a hefty fine should suffice.Say half a million per illegal worker.Private employers such as home owners be fined say 50,000 per illegal worker.Oh say six monts in jail.
I am against immigration from anywhere, the roads,cities,parks,recreation areas etc are over crowded.I am willing to pay another quarter for a head of lettuce if some American is doing the picking instead of a Mexican.
Mexicans send $ 20 billion dollars back to Mexicao each year it is Mexicos 2nd largest income producer after oil.That is 20 billion dollars that doesn’t get spent here as it would if Americans were earning that 20 billion.
We all know that so called jobs Americans won’t take are so low paying that it’s near slave labor. Illegals force the hourly wage of unskilled workers down because they will take those low pay jobs. Just because the labor is cheap doesn’t make it OK to hire illegals.

Comment #6189 by Sid on 3/30 at 8:03 pm

“fence with bob wire at the top”

The term is “barbed wire” i.e. wire with barbs on it.

Sid: You ain’t from Texas and it shows.

Here is how it goes, I buy new computer, get the internet up, put Molly 1st on my FAVORITES pulldown. We must all visualize Molly overcoming her medical problems or all of our lifes will be grayer.

It is enlightening to recognize that the same people promoting illegal alien punishment also are against the UN. By reading the UN’s Human Rights charter you will understand why.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

How about if we use land-mines instead of a fence? Hey, it works in Korea!

You hit the nail, almost on the head. However, consider the unintended consequences of your “prosecute the employer” proposals. Take 11 million hard working, employed workers, behaving themselves, building a new life, and throw them all out of work with no prospects to legally and legitimately put food on the table. To what do they turn? Let us not create a huge army of malcontents.

Molly,
It’s nice to hear that someone in this country still has some sense.
Until the business interests in this country and Mexico are held accountable, nothing will change.
I love the line that the illegals do jobs American’s won’t do.  BS:  Large businesses and contractors don’t want to pay a living wage, or have unions involved, so they box out the citizens and hire the immigrants.  Americans would gladly do the work in construction and landscaping, etc. - but for a fair wage and benefits.
We have porous borders.  Why?  There’s no interest in fixing it by big businesses in both countries. 
The solution?  Get the racist “Minutemen” off the border.  Drastically increase the border patrol, thus giving Americans good jobs.  Go after those who hire illegals.  Demand that Mexico also patrol their border.  Come up with a program where those who are here can earn citizenship through reasonable steps.
This would take courage and dedication.  Sadly, those are two traits that have not been seen in DC in years.

“fence with bob wire at the top”

The term is “barbed wire” i.e. wire with barbs on it.

As an American of hispanic descent, I realize we live in the most progressive country in the world. As such, we deal with issues other countries will or may not ever deal with. But on the flip side, I think we and our children will be fortunate enough to experience the benefits of living in such a great country – prosperity, diversity, excitement, hope, democracy.

Our founding fathers’ minds were truely ahead of their time. Though they may have lived in their time, by the grace of GOD they crafted a constitution that has come to represent a model for other nations to follow no matter how disguised it may be. 

But today we are embarking on an issue so divisive that we risk beginning a dark chapter in this country’s existence. History will judge us in how we handle the fate of 11 - 12 million illegal aliens - most of them from Mexico. The interesting thing about history is that it is able to remove all disguises and fears we acted through and judge our actions for what they really were. For one living in the present, this issue is so complex it encompasses political, cultural, racial, and capitalist variables. Nonetheless, history will judge us negatively if we do not follow the principles on which this country was founded.

As a numbers person, I’d like to throw some high-level figures. The 11 to 12 million illegals represent approximately 4 % of the country’s population. From this percentage we have been told by citizens, who have every right to argue their case, that the illegals are overthrowing our cultural or way of life as we know it. “The face of America as we know it will be changed forever.” Are illegals the only ones who are going to procreate? I don’t think so. Joe and Jan will procreate just as Juan and Maria. The difference is that Hispanics represent only 12-15% of the US population while Anglos are more than 50%.  Furthermore, we’re told illegal immigrants are a drain on our public services, including healthcare. If you take the 12 million and assume half work while the remaining may be family members, you have a $93 billion economic impact, assuming a weekly average pay of $300.00. The $93Billion pays for rent/house, car payments, food, electricity, etc. Assuming none of these immigrants reported their income on a federal level - highly unlikely but conservative - they still would contribute approximately $3.7 billion to state governments via sales taxes. Their cost to government services would be approximately $12 to $15 billion for schooling and healthcare. This assumes 4 million of the 12 million are children at $3,000 per child for schooling and $1,000 for approximately 3 million who will require some type of healthcare. On an inflow and outflow of government resources we do see a net negative result. On a net economic basis, however, I think it becomes evident that no one is really carrying immigrants on their backs. To the contrary, immigrants carry many construction, restaurant, and agricultural companies on their backs as they work for dirt cheap wages so companies and their owners can augment the bottom line margin. But this is capitalism and its rules – maximize returns by seeking the lowest cost drivers. This is why we have offshored millions of jobs. As a result, illegal immigrants has the support of Business in Congress which is why the Republican party is split on this issue. But it is unfortunate that the support is based on economic and not humanitarian for the conditions in which they work – but this is a totally different topic.

In summary the face of America will not change – in the next 20-50 years – nor will immigrants be a drain on our system, which is a secondary argument. The core issue is a race issue. The face of America is not going to change, but if that is main concern, we are only promoting rhetoric in schools, work, and media. Commercials where the boss or president is a woman and / or black is only a mirage. We as a generation may not be ready for a truely diverse society, but our future generations, one day, will take that step. I think the founding fathers were even further ahead than 2006.

One of the first things we need to do is to negotiate some trade agreements that are fair to workers Demand that other countries give workers a living wage and a few benefits in other countries. All the benefits of globalization are for capital. I’ll guarantee if this country demanded this we wouldn’t be running a trade deficit of almost a trillion dollars a year. We could almost dispense with foreign aid. I know, I know it would be trickle down in many countries but there would be more middle classes. People like Bush and Cheney might even have to go to work themselves.

Umm, guys, this is Molly’s syndicated column, so it’s unlikely that she’ll read your comments here.

But Molly,

We need all those illegal immigrants to do the jobs that Americans just won’t do....

..... like Infantry Soldier

Thanks, Molly.  I think we all need a good laugh every darn day!  I used to be registered Reep, but nowadays I claim to be “Independent”.  Seems to me the Dems are too timid, and the Reeps are too brittle to manage what’s supposed to be good gov’t in DEE-CEE.  Anyway, thank you for a delightful essay!

Arthur Thistlewood: at383 at yahoo dot com.

As we speak foreign labor has done more for re-building the City of New Orleans than any of the broken promises bush made at Jackson Square.
Of course if you followed the money trail as to who has made the lion’s share off the influx of south-of-the-boarder trade it would lead right back to the same companies that are raping us in Iraq - that’s right, good old Halliburton and KB&R;. Funny how things work out ...

Molly For President!!!

There’s a lot of joyous hop-skip-and-jump writing here!  beautiful prose on an otherwise depressing matter.

I’m a Social Libertarian who truly believes in “Live & Let Live”. 

I understand your points, however I have serious issues with anything remotely similar to an Amnesty program.  I get the impression from the Uber-Left that if I don’t agree in full; then I’m a Social Monster of sorts comparable to the Republicans.  ::shuddering at the thought...::

Which...as a proud progressive...is not fair.

We should not send back the 11 million that are here, but we need to seriously crack down on ALL fronts.

1.  Porous Borders
2.  Prosecuting Employers
3.  Figure out ways to help other countries become financially prosperous for their people.

Many in the border states are paying higher car & health insurance premiums and suffering a serious drop in local wages due to immigration.  Before the War, we were one of the Richest Countries in the world.  Is it really that terrible to expect every “American” be paid top dollar for their job level?

With a continuous influx of millions of people who work cheaply (By American Standards...), America will fast revert back to the old days of ONLY the “Rich” and the “Poor”.

The middle class will be eradicated and the Employers Market will only increase.

Tony
Atlanta, GA

Molly’s “pearls of wisdom” about immigration is, as usual, excellent and true.  Thanks, Molly, from a fellow Texan for summing up this issue with your refreshing, no-nonsense style!

Reading your columns is a breath of fresh air. You cut through the bullshit that’s pulling us under like quicksand better than anyone else, and you do it with style and wit. As they say in Texas, “When you’re all cattle, you don’t need no stinkin’ hat.” Keep ‘em coming, Molly.

can u believe it - Americans blaming immigrants for not being able to have better paying jobs!!!
How about blaming big business - Republicans and Democrates who support big business who are attacking our Middle class /working class status - attacking our job security, unions etc. Nooooooooooooo get the brown people - I saw them working....

If the jobs were in Mexico we’d find a way to get them for ourselves - oh isn’t that what we’re doing in Iraq taking what they have as ours - and guess what their brown people too.

This is what happens when the red necks are in power.

The good people of America need to wake up and stop this rightwing madness.

What an article...I loved it through and through.  An article in the NY Times a while ago by Paul Krugman and the economic impact/benefits of illegal immigrant workers was interesting.  Contrasting Krugman’s contention that illegal immigrants have not helped the plight of American workers that much through the last few decades and Ivin’s contention that Texas practically abuses the laws against hiring illegal immigrants to its own content raises an interesting dilemma.  One of the solutions (by conservatives) to it is to build a wall with interesting contraptions or strengthen our borders, as Ivins eloquently noted.  I find the suggestions about strengthening our borders similar to “fighting the war on terror.” Both solutions aren’t practical and realistic.  Both solutions fail to address the real issue and problems at hand.  Illegal immigrant workforce