Abortion is just wrong. The old excuses of the wire hanger and the parent or society vilifying the poor pregnant single woman are gone.You have many routes to take now. And yes, you can put the child up for adoption. There are many programs to help the pregnant woman now and many of these old horror stories put up by the freedom of choice people don’t hold water.And yes, in cases of rape it should be streamlined to the courts.Or in certain cases of total deformity where the baby is non entity- the same should hold true. But if you have a healthy woman who chooses to have sex and a healthy man who is the same then you really should consider having the baby then letting some other family raise it.Why not? Listen, many great people where born of such circumstance.Many single Mothers/Dads do just fine.
But to have it as an option because you just don’t want it- is wrong. Listen,your not a fortune teller and can’t see the future. So how is it that you can foretell this child to be a misery, or have a useless life?And if it is going to stop you from pursuing your dreams or your spouses and yours- big leap to such dreams,or peaks? I got news for you- You don’t have what it takes from jump street- if you are thinking along these lines.And when you and your spouse - or your lover finally get around to growing up and committing to something other than yourselves.And decide to have a “family"- How pray tell are you going to look these children you “kept” in the eye without looking away or feeling really bad about the one or more you tossed away? It’s really sickening how self absorbed we have become as a society. How petty. I would step in front of a speeding car to save any child. Would you? So how is it that you would treat an infant as an object? To be tossed aside. Are you that numb? That out of touch with what matters? The really warped part is that this is an ancient argument. This is truly shame. We treat our clothing better than we treat a human life.I have four kids and each one was told when they came of age that I would be proud,more than happy, to pitch in and help raise such a child if need be.It’s just simple doing.

RE:  Rosy, steve-o, et al.

The decision to have an abortion belongs to the woman who is pregnant.  It can be a difficult decision or an easy one.  Every woman has a different set of circumstances in her life that leads her to this decision.  We would have to “walk a mile in her shoes” to know why the decision is right for her.

I am not poor, a member of a minority group, uneducated or live in a rural area.  I was fortunate to grow up in a loving, affluent family with all the choices and resources that this entails.  I, however, am one of those women that could not tolerate the “pill”; and other methods of birth control have a more limited success rate.  I am the mother of a grown daughter.  She is bright, beautiful, responsible, employed, and a law abiding, tax paying citizen.  I love her with all my heart. I take a small measure of credit for the type of excellent human being she is today.  I feel that by being able to stay employed while she was growing up and also having the time to spend quality time with her, contributed to her health and well being as a child and adolescent.  If I would have been forced to have other children that I did not want and could not care for, I would have had no other choice but to go on public assistance.  I would not have been able to provide her or any other children with the things that make for a happy childhood – a happy, loving parent, extracurricular activities, proper nutrition and health care, a safe neighborhood with good schools.

If the laws of this nation had not allowed me to limit the size of my family, I fear that today, instead of having two happy, healthy, productive citizens there would be several unhappy people that would be a burden to themselves and society.

The pro-life movement does not take into consideration what happens to women and children after the event of birth.  I know that my story will not change their minds, but I wish that they would consider the lives of desperation that many women and children face that live in poverty – the abuse and neglect, the hopelessness that breeds crime and drug addiction and so many of societies other ills.

Children should be wanted, loved, cared for and nurtured.  They are our nation’s greatest resource.  This is why I have always been and will remain PRO-CHOICE.

I did not mention God in this statement because it does not belong.  The United States of America is NOT a theocracy.  I support the right of everyone to believe in whatever faith they choose.  Religion is a private, not a government matter.  Read the Constitution.

I once again affirm the Ninth Amendment.Do not didtort what I mean by consciousness.Dr.Sagan expresed what I meant. Leave Sky Pappy out of the discussion.What is relevant is what is good or bad for humans., not what some ignoramuses thousands of years ago thought. Reason,not a dead Galilean , saves!

I Got Pregnant At 14. I did Not Abort, My Son Is Now 6. We Are Not Gnd So What Rightdo We Have To Kill An Innocent Child?!!!! It May Be A Womans Right Or Choice To Abort. But What About The Childs Right To Live??? How Much Innocent Blood Must Be Shead Before Everyond Realizes, What Their Doing Is Cold Blooded Murder. Plain And Simple.

Any insult by a small minded,hypocritical,bitter liberal is a badge of honor ...wear it with pride. Ivins only claim to fame is being a plagiarist. These people call others ignorant? bumpkins?  .... Remember .. many like Ivins believe others(i.e. government)must feed,educate and take care of people while others use thier own intellect to survive.Who seems smarter?  On abortion- The biggest fools are those that think they know the un-knowable ... they have NO conclusive proof of anything regarding God’s existence OR when life(the soul) begins in the womb ..Guess what!, niether do I ! .. I choose to have faith in and believe that there is more to our lives than this mortal existence , unlike those who think they know know it all and must “educate” us.

With all due respect, Mr. Curt Bentley, your request that we “please don’t characterize me as irrational and ignorant” is denied.

Your stated beliefs (in #5075) are CLEARLY IRRATIONAL (unsupportable by reasoning) and CLEARLY IGNORANT (you can’t possibly KNOW that what you believe is actually true.)

To those who believe abortion is wrong, my advice is DON’T HAVE ONE.

To those who believe that because THEY believe that abortion is wrong then EVERYONE should believe it, how about DROPPING DEAD and if you can’t follow through on that, I’ll settle for you just MINDING YOUR OWN BUSINESS.

Yeah sure- there are SO many people waiting to adopt out there--- then why are there kids waiting to be adopted?!? Let’s worry about all the kids that are already here first before we make it mandatory for women to make more…

This is in response to Mr. Baxter, who probably rightly takes me to task for treating too lightly a serious issue, and accordingly, I apologize.

Although, please note that my mention of a “real response”, was my own recognition of this.

I went and read the chapter of Leviticus he mentions.  Still, having read those verses I do not find any justification in them for a belief that God does not place value on “zygotes, embryos, fetuses or even postpartum infants under one month of age.” With all due respect, I think Mr. Baxter is reaching here.

<p>There are strong scriptural justifications for the opposite position (see below).  But I think that I can disagree on a more fundamental level.  It seems to me that a basic belief of all Christians is that all people are the children of God.  I believe this, and simply cannot reconcile that fundamental Christian belief with the notion that God places less value upon their lives when his children are in the womb.  I believe that all people existed prior to this life with God, and were sent to earth for a purpose.  Therefore, given that I believe that life existed spiritually before it exist temporally, it does not make any sense to me that he would not value that life from the moment it was created.</p>

Given what we know about the value that God places on human life—the lives of his own children—I think that it is not me who bears the burden of proof to show that God “proscribe[s] abortion”.  Rather, I think that the nature of God if fundamentally incompatible with such a practice, and the burden of proof should lie with Mr. Baxter, who seems to imply that God would sanction the practice.

<p>The only possible argument to be made is that God also places a tremendous value on free agency—the right of his children to make their own decisions.  This is surely the case, but it is clear from the scriptures that there are consequences for the exercising of agency when one uses it to take another’s life.  This is a scriptural boundary beyond which the agency argument cannot pass.</p>

I recognize, however, that other people will disagree with me.  A fundamental point of my last posting is in response to the tenor of Ms. Ivins article—that all supporters of a ban on abortion are ignorant “country bumpkins” [to borrow a phrase from Stare Decisis ].  While you may not agree with my views, please don’t characterize me as irrational and ignorant because they are different than yours.

Just a brief comment on Star E. Decisis’ posting:

She is generally right.  This is a problem with the political debate on both sides of the ideological fence—as a country we seem to have lost the ability to talk to each other.  The only exception I take to her posting is her implication that the anti-abortion movement is basically reactionary.  I think it has deep-rooted beliefs and bases of its own.  But her intellectual contempt argument is a good one, and I probably did not help the situation much with the first half of my previous posting.

Still, having been a lone conservative in many liberal academic departments, I have to say that many of those I met take the view that conservatives are conservative merely because they are ignorant.  I don’t consider myself ignorant, and believe that there are good reasons for the beliefs that I have.  In this article Ms. Ivins has taken the Ann Coulter approach—and all this does is reinforce the smug conclusions of those who have already chosen their ideology.  It contributes nothing to the political debate, and only serves to antagonize. 

Now, below are some scriptures that I believe show God places value of human life while it is in the womb, and even before then.  Let me give credit where credit is due: for more on these, visit
http://www.solport.com/references/abortion/Scriptures.htm

Luke 1:38-44

38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and asaluted Elisabeth.

41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was afilled with the Holy Ghost:

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou mong awomen, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.

Exodus 21:22

If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Jeremiah 1:4-5

Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.

In the Old Testament, we find God telling Moses the different monetary values that must be assigned to the People of Israel according to their age and sex (Lev 27:3-:6).

Males 20-60 years old: 50 shekels of silver; females: 30 shekels.
Males 5-20 years old: 20 shekels; females: 10 shekels.
Males 1 month-5 years old: 5 shekels; females: 3 shekels.

God places no such value on zygotes, embryos, fetuses or even postpartum infants under one month of age.  So when and where does God proscribe abortion?  Go read!

P.S.
Just trying to give Mr. Bentley (#4947) another chance for a “fun” and “easy” response.  Perhaps, if we’re lucky, he’ll even give us another “real response” as well.

I do find fault with one aspect of Molly’s piece: she damns almost all residents of the state as a bunch of country bumpkins.

It’s not only unfair but counterproductive - akin to those who argued Bush would never be elected because he’s dumb.

The South Dakota abortion law isn’t a case of dummies-run-amok. It reflects a deep and profound movement in the country. By treating it with intellectual contempt, we only propagate it, endangering us all.

We should have learned this lesson with Bush’s election.

But thanks for the piece.

Best,

Star
http://www.enigmaticparadox.com

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I know I said that was may last and it is to everyone except “mpls”

If you care to look at my response to “Denny” and find his response to “Melody” you might trouble yourself to scroll down to her story and read it. I did not in anyway suggest that her story is the norm. I simply asked what is hypocritical in “Melody’s” desire that this happens to no one else. While what happened to her is like you said not the usual, it certainly isn’t impossible. I also asked “Denny” if he read her story at all since he made some hurtful and untrue comments about her situation. I have read stories people have put up and I am willing to believe them. I believe “Melody” and I believe you when you say that you don’t regret getting an abortion and that you don’t know anyone who does. It is impolite to assume that a person is lying. It is also impolite to make judgements about anyone that you don’t know or do know for that matter. I have stated my belief that abortion is wrong and that is my belief and not yours, but I have not and will not attack you for yours. You have stated that you do not need me to feel sorry for you. I am sorry that my sorrow has offended you. It was never my intent. Please remember that everyone is stating their opinion and as long as they do it politely and respectfully with no ill intent why should we harbor ill feelings for them.

Is anyone else disturbed that Napoli’s description of a real-life example in which abortion is allowable is almost a carbon copy of something out of western pulp novels and terribly stereotypical cowboy & Indian movies?

Rape is brutal because it is rape, but he’s mining the savage Indian archetype in order to come up with his real-life example, and that speaks volumes about him.

‘The savage Indian kidnaps the God-fearing innocent homesteader, brutally rapes her and does horrific things to her.’

The other thing that comes to mind for me, is that he’s drawing a very clear separation in HIS mind between rape and then serious rape, and this is why he came up with that grotesque exagerration of what is a brutal scenario no matter how it happens.

I’d be curious to know how many women he date-raped or coerced in college, for starters.  People disclose a lot about themselves and their proclivities, on occasion, and this is one such occasion.

In #4910, Steve-o takes me to task because I think the INDIVIDUAL, not the collective, should have priority in a civilized society. He apparently does not…

“What was your new enlightening idea ? hmmm.. let’s see .. people banding together to decide how other’s should conduct themselves .. gee, sounds like representative government to me! What is really destroying our society is those who feel that each individual is his own little universe and shouldn’t be required to conform to ANYTHING except what they want. Certain norms for a decent law abiding society SHOULD be enacted and enforced, otherwise there is chaos ...”

Well, Steve-O, I think you need your “hearing” adjusted if what I wrote means “representative government” to you. When I, the individual, elect a representative, I elect him or her to look after those things that I as an individual cannot… you know, international trade, drilling for resources, building schools, and so on. I do NOT need, want or authorize any “representative government” to decide for me how I should conduct my sex life, whether or not I should take on responsibility for yet another unwanted child, or in any way interfere with how I conduct my interpersonal affairs.

I especially love your conclusion that to allow the individual to choose his own “universe” would lead to “chaos!” And exactly WHAT, dear Steve-O, do you think we have NOW?

You went on… “the problem lies in the point that some think that they should never be made to abide by any law / norm that prohibits their self destructive behavior .. yes yes .. it is “your” destructive behavior - but many times the foolishness of a few affects many ... people will always have some sort of authority to answer to or some entity that has at least some POWER OVER all of us, so grow up and deal with it.”

I did not say or imply that individuals “should never be made to abide by any law/norm that prohibits their self-destructive behavior...”. I stated very clearly that when the behavior of one begins to interfere with another’s right to be safe, to enjoy peace, to a clean environment, to freedom from interference in personal pursuits, then “rules” come into play. What is a “norm” for you may NOT be a “norm” for me and I reject your assumption you have the right to decide for me what my “norm” will be.

For example, should you wish to go to church 7 days a week and spend hours in prayer and reading a holy book, that’s no skin off my nose and I have no right to interfere with your right to do so. What you DO in no way interferes with me. However, should you wish to conduct gospel prayer services with music and clapping and bells ringing, etc., you would likely DISTURB my right to peace and quiet, and you should be prevented from doing so. If I and my partner should decide that we do NOT want another child in the family, and we learn there’s one on the way, then it is OUR decision to take whatever course of action we choose… NOT YOURS or ANYONE ELSE, or most certainly, any “representative government.”

Finally, I am of the opinion that I am NOT on this planet to satisfy the notions or desires of others. If you wish to submit your life to the control of some “authority,” be my guest. That’s your business entirely. All I ask is that YOU and everyone who thinks like you, keep your bloody hands off MY RIGHT to do as I damned well please with my time on earth.

This is my last post. I know that some of you are probably estatic. Glad to make your day. I just want to leave a challenge with everyone who is sincerely pro-choice to research the whole abortion proceedure. This includes looking at pictures of aborted babies or seeing footage. I know this sounds disgusting and uneeded but you need to fully comprehend what you are standing for. It is one thing to read about things but it is an entirely different thing to see them. I think that every person considering an abortion should look into the risks, and the benefits and not just be informed by the clinic who performs the abortion or the people against abortions. I think that people need to educate themselves. “Myeisha”, you called me naive. I am less naive than you think. I believe that life is sacred and should not be taken lightly. I was with my Mother when she lost her fight with cancer. I could no longer hold the oxygen mask on her face because she fought me so hard. Have you ever watched someone you love die? It is not as they show it in the movies. They do not simply close their eyes and stop breathing. They fight with everything they have to live. Everything is born with a will to live. Who are we to decide for the helpless. I am not trying to play God but after seeing developing babies that look human as young as eight weeks and seeing pictures of aborted babies I cannot ever support the woman’s right to choose past intimacy with the exceptions that I have already mentioned. In the case where the Mother’s life is in danger I think that they should try to save both, but if that cannot be accomplished I definitely think that they should save the mother.

to “Rosy”:
While I would never, ever want someone to be strapped down and gagged and forced to have an abortion, that is not how abortions are performed en masse.  That is ridiculous to even suggest that is what happens.  MOST WOMEN WHO HAVE ABORTIONS SO NOT REGRET THEM.  I have never spoken with a woman who was strapped down and gagged and forced to have an abortion.  It is not fair for you to even try to make it seem like that is what happens when a woman has an abortion.  I had one.  I was not strapped down.  I was not gagged.  I was not forced.  No one I have ever met has been.  I respect your opinion that ‘life’ begins at conception.  An abortion would not be a good option for you.  It was a good option for me when I had mine and it was a good option for every woman I have talked to who has had one.  Not one of us needs you or anyone else to tell us what we may or may not do regarding our reproductive choices.  Just as I would never tell you what you may or may not do with yours.

In response to the questions I wrote about when the fetus is considered a person.  I did a little looking around. It is agreed in the scientific community that the child is a seperate being than the mother at conception because it has it’s own blood, and seperate DNA. I also looked up the “difference between living sperm and egg cell and the fertilized egg”. The difference being both the “living” sperm and egg cells have only 23 chromosomes, while the fertilized egg has 46 chromosomes.  You may say “so what?” Well, the fact that the chromosomes in the baby are different than those in the Mother makes it a seperate body, even if this seperate body is housed by the mother. This baby contains chromosomes that are half the father’s and half the mother’s. Everywhere I looked according to science this is the case so life does begin at conception. However if you read about pregnancy, the moment you conceive you are not necessarily pregnant. Once the baby implants in the uterine wall, then you are pregnant. This takes place well before you discover you are pregnant. By the time you are certain that you are pregnant more often than not the fetus’s heart is already beating.  I think that we should all read as much as we can possibly find on this very important issue.  I don’t mean opinions, but I mean honestly look into these statistics that are being thrown back and forth on both sides. If we read medical journals on the development of a fetus, other journals on the risks involved in carrying a child, others on the rate of pregnancies among rape victims not just among the statuatory rape victims, and journals on just how many women were actually dying from illegal abortions before it was made legal. I think that a lot facts should be looked at and considered and I think that one very important question should be answered. Is a fetus a person?  From all the biology classes I have taken and things that I have read on the development of fetuses and the two pregnancies I have had myself I would have to say that in my mind there is not a doubt that a fetus is a person.

re: # 4939 - the brainless should not be allowed to post ... i.e.  - you and #4919 princess. Your gutter talk doesn’t enlighten, it makes you sound immature and stupid ... just trying to help ...

this question is for the christians, and i would just like an honest answer from one of you (you people never do answer the question): does the bible stress taking care of the poor; profiting off of religion; not judging others; etc. more than it does abortion?  if so, point to some evidence and which version of the bible you read.  if not, please explain whether or not you devote (at least) equal time to these issues.  the bible references poverty, literally, thousands of times.  how many times does it mention abortion, even indirectly?  what proportion is it to poverty?  i’m just trying to logically figure this out.  thanks.

Quote from “Denny”

“In response to Melody #4786.  I’m always suprised when someone who already had an abortion now doesn’t want any else to have one.  Why was it all right for you to get rid of your unwanted baby because it was inconvient for you to have it and now she thinks other women shouldn’t have that option?  How hypocritical!”

Question: Did you read Melody’s story at all? Did it escape you that she did not want the abortion performed on her? Did you miss that her Mother made the choice for her after promising to respect her choice to have the baby. Did you read that they strapped her down and gagged her while she screamed? Where in her story did she state that she did not want the baby or that it was inconvient for her to have it? How is she being hypocritical in not wanting anyone else to have to suffer what she has?

I am here again to bust the “abortion is a private matter between a woman and her doctor” myth that I have seen posted here. 

According to EX-ABORTIONISTS testimonies, they have as little to do with the patients as possible. 

Carol Everett, ex-abortion provider has given us an insider look at just how abortion clinics operate. 

According to Carol Everett and other abortion providers, the most important person in the clinic is the person who answers the phones.  Alot of money is spent training them on how to be the perfect sales people.  They receive more training in this area than any other.  They are more important than the abortionist who performs the procedure or the nurse who assists him.  The people who answer the phones are the most important because they bring the money in.

It is the job of the people who answer the phone to sell you on abortion and they insist that you bring the money with you in cash “just in case.”

Once the client comes in she is taken to a room where a pregnancy test is done.  This is really where the “marketing” strategies come into play. 

“From the moment the woman enters the door she is pressured to abort.” Carol Everett says.  “A great deal of training is spent on our “counselors” to ensure that the woman chooses abortion.”

The counselors are trained to wait with the client on the result of the pregnancy test.  She is trained to act sympathetic and caring.  She is trained to sit silently with you and stroke your hand reassuringly.  When the pregnancy test results in positive the counselor is trained to act as if this is a sentance worse than death.  Every person in the clinic then treats the client with kid gloves.  They make slight clucking sounds of distress, as if your pregnancy is the worst thing that could happen to you. 

Next comes the pressure and the lies. You are told over and over that it is “best to get it over with now.” You see statistics show that women who make a second appointment for the abortion don’t come back.  Therefore they must not be allowed to leave the clinic.  They might look up some information on the physical and emotional devastation that abortion causes women on the internet.  Or they may talk to a friend or loved one who will give them the love and support they need to carry the child to term.  This must not happen if the abortion clinic wants to make a profit. 

She is then taken to the “counselor” who rushes through the possible physical complications that could arise. She says them so fast it is hard to take in what she is saying.  She is trained to do it this way.  Then she asks if you have any questions.  She is quick to tell you that it is not really a “baby” just a lump of tissue.  She then tells you how young you are, helpless you are, and generally how unfit you are to be a mother now. If the client says she wants to talk with family members she is made to feel guilty for burdening them with “her little problem.” She is made to feel selfish for wanting to keep her own baby!

Once the woman has been convinced that nobody loves her, no one will support her in a choice to keep her baby she is ready to abort. 

She is taken to an room, given a gown and told to lie in the table with feet in stirrups.  If you are a woman you know the routine. 

Unlike a doctor however, the abortionist never looks at your face, or even calls you by name. You see you might become a person to him if he looks at you or talks with you.  He just goes between your legs and does the dirty job he is there for. 

One abortion clinic in TN gives women a bracelet with a number.  Sounds like the concentration camps right? You see it’s easier to brutalize people when they are nameless.

After the pain and humiliation of having your child ripped from your body you are whisked down the hall to the recovery room.  A room filled with cots where you lie for a few hours trying to forget that you just murdered your own child and a part of yourself. Women who cry to much are taken to a private room so as not to scare the other clients.  Nurses soothe you and tell you that you made the right choice.  There will be opportunities for other babies later they say.

Abortion is a BUSINESS folks. Stop your pretenses.

Sorry so many of the same ones got posted. My computer timed out and I didn’t know if any posts got sent, so again I am sorry that they are repeated.  I really am curious about one thing though, when does Roe vs. Wade classify a fetus as being a human being? When does science classify it as a human being? Is it when the fetus’s heart beats or when it is viable? If it is when it is viable are they telling me that my baby is nothing and feels nothing until it is born? What about the way the baby jumps in utero when there is a loud noise? The baby sure looks human at 20 weeks.  I am not trying to be arguementative or contraversial, I really want to know.. When do they think that this ball of cells becomes human? If not when the heart starts beating, then when? Isn’t a pulse a sign of life? Isn’t movement a sign of life? Is it when the fetus shows some brain activity? How would you moniter that?  Is anyone else curious about this or are we all more interested in the right to choose?

This is in response to “mpls”. I wrote that I do feel sorry for those who have had abortions because they will never feel that baby move, which they won’t because it is dead. I did not write that they will never have a baby, or feel a baby move. I believe that is your own interpretation of what I wrote. I do believe that life starts at conception and continues at implantation and if you have ever read and taken biology classes on the development of a human you would appreciate how very little conceptions manage to implant.  This all said, if life doesn’t start then, then when? In response to “Myeisha” I am pro choice in this regard: I believe that the person chooses when they decide to be intimate. I also believe that those who have been raped should have the choice to terminate since their choice to be intimate was taken away. I also believe that in the instance that the Mother’s life is in peril she should also have the choice to terminate, even if my own Mother did not take it. I believe in these circumstances that it is up to the Mother.

In response to Melody #4786.  I’m always suprised when someone who already had an abortion now doesn’t want any else to have one.  Why was it all right for you to get rid of your unwanted baby because it was inconvient for you to have it and now she thinks other women shouldn’t have that option?  How hypocritical!

Some Responses:

1. Quote from Matthew Burton Kelly:

“I disagree with a lot of choices people make.  I don’t make these choices myelf, and I certainly don’t make other people live by my morality.”

Answer: But you do make people die because of your morality.

2. Quote from Myeisha:

“A WOMAN WHO WILL BE MORESO DAMAGED BY THIS SURGERY THAN ANYONE ELSE, WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE HER DECISION AND TO MAKE HER AGAINST HER WILL CARRY A CHILD”

Answer: What about the dead child?

3. Another quote from Myeisha:

“you are so naive to what is happening to women’s rights in South Dakota do you realize that “Napoli” has basically made himself God, thrown out all wages of democracy and decided to take it upon himself to make everyone be pro-life.”

Answer: Didn’t I read something about the South Dakota Legislature?  Since when is a majority legislative decision anti-democratic?

4. Quote from Morgan Lamberth:

“TThe [sic] ninth amendment gives us unenumerated rights;the right to privacy is such.Faith-based reasoning that life itself counts is irrelevant:what counts is consciousnes s and feeling pain.Such reasoning involves statistical lies.”

Answer: Are you really implying that it is OK to kill when people are unconscious and don’t feel pain?  Is it good enough that when you do it fast and effectively while they sleep; they might not feel a thing . . . hmm . . . life is not the issue, right?  Life is irrelevant—Am I actually reading this?

Now, my real response:

I have had quite a bit of fun with people who set themselves up for easy responses . . . but this obviously is an important and serious issue.  I am a man, and will never be pregnant, have a baby, or an oppotunity to make the decision to abort or not.  But, I do have some thoughts.

Those who are trying to cast this issue in a purely legal light, e.g. Federalism 10th Amendment v. Unenumerated Rights in the 9th Amendment are missing the real point.  This may be important to the reasoning of the Supreme COurt, but ultimately, this is a moral--not a legal--issue.  The real point is that this is a debate over a conflict between a person’s right to act as they choose (in the interests of their own health, future life) and the right of a fetus for life.  What makes this decision difficult are two things: (1) the fact that some can try and justify that a fetus is not a living human being, and (2) the fact that not every pregnancy is a result of a voluntary choice to engage in sexual activity.  Even all but the very arch conservatives on the religious right acknolwedge a mother’s right to abort a pregnancy initiated by rape, or which medical professionals agree endangers her own life.  This should all but eliminate the second difficulty.  With this elimination, all you have left is the difficulty that will result in a young mother being forced to accept responsibility for a child and the rights of the fetus itself.  This difficulty can be substantially eliminated as well—through adoption.
In reality, the pro-life position is the following:

When the mother has made a voluntary choice to be sexually active, she is being required, in the interests of the rights of her unborn child, to go through the process of pregnancy and childbirth in order to give that person (which she helped initiate) a chance to live.  She may place the child up for adoption, and have no further responsibility if she chooses.  But really, is that too much to ask?  Remember, it is the life of the child at stake!

Now, you may answer my posting by disclaiming that a fetus is a human being.  That may be your opinion . . . but don’t cast me or others as unreasonable and “destroying the wages of democracty” (by the way, what are the wages of democracy anyway Myeisha. . .) because we believe that a fetus is human being who is protected under homicide laws.

A final response to posts about conservative hypocrisy:

Essentially, the tired old argument goes something like this: if conservatives are so concerned about rights, how can they let innocent children suffer and go around waging war on unsuspecting countries which pose no threat to national security. Or, an alternative version: how can they talk about life when they only stand up for big business and continue to oppress the poor within their own country.  You may have various views about conservative foreign policy and fiscal policy objective, but the hypocritcal argument is always a weak one—if abortion is wrong, it is wrong.  This is true no matter if the party who supports its abolition is wrong on every other issue under the sun.  You know that, and so do I.

Sorry for the typos, and please respond.

This is in response to “mpls”. I wrote that I do feel sorry for those who have had abortions because they will never feel that baby move, which they won’t because it is dead. I did not write that they will never have a baby, or feel a baby move. I believe that is your own interpretation of what I wrote. I do believe that life starts at conception and continues at implantation and if you have ever read and taken biology classes on the development of a human you would appreciate how very little conceptions manage to implant.  This all said if life doesn’t start then, then when? In response to “Myeisha” I am pro choice in this regard. I believe that the person chooses when they decide to be intimate. I also believe that those who have been raped should have the choice to terminate since their choice to be intimate was taken away. I also believe in the instance that the Mother’s life is in peril, she should also have the choice to terminate, even if my own Mother did not take it. I believe in these circumstances that it is up to the Mother.

This is in response to “mpls”. I wrote that I do feel sorry for those who have had abortions because they will never feel that baby move, which they won’t because it is dead. I did not write that they will never have a baby, or feel a baby move. I believe that is your own interpretation of what I wrote. I do believe that life starts at conception and continues at implantation and if you have ever read and taken biology classes on the development of a human you would appreciate how very little conceptions manage to implant.  This all said if life doesn’t start then, then when? In response to “Myeisha” I am pro choice in this regard. I believe that the person chooses when they decide to be intimate. I also believe that those who have been raped should have the choice to terminate since their choice to be intimate was taken away. I also believe in the instance that the Mother’s life is in peril should also have the choice even if my own Mother did not take it. I believe in these circumstances that it is up to the Mother.

I love you, Molly, but I disagree with your views on abortion. Yes, banning almost all abortions, like South Dakota did, borders on the extreme, but you must also admit that abortion on demand should not be the answer. A line should be drawn somewhere, so, where do we draw it.
The argument that a woman has a right to her body is valid to a point. The point where that baby is survivable outside the womb. That is a child at that point. Nobody should have a right to kill that child. Not even the mother.
The pro choice side of this debate want no restrictions, not even on late term abortions. Avoiding pregnancy is a lot easier than it used to be. Contraception is not perfect but it beats the hell out of abortions, especially the late term abortions.

Napoli’s memories “growing up in the Wild West” are different than mine - I remember horror stories of women (and their unborn babies) dying horrendous deaths from botched abortions because abortion was illegal.  Making abortions illegal again will not stop them - it will only kill women (and their unborn babies).  Is Napoli willing to adopt every baby put up for adoption because abortion was not an option?  If not, he needs to shut up.
Anyway, the Rude Pundit has the solution for Napoli and South Dakota:
The Solution For South Dakota: More Fucking:
Here’s what we do: the age of consent in South Dakota is 16 years old, so this’ll be easy. We gotta get a bunch of the smoothest black motherfuckers around, sweet-talkin’, hot lookin’ African American males, we’re talkin’ some Terence Howard or Andre 3000 or Taye Diggs-lookin’ and actin’ dudes, and get ‘em on board for a mission to South Dakota, where the past-the-age-of-consent (which is, by the way, 16) white pussies are tight and virginal and ready for fuckin’.

Then we organize us a concert, say a double bill of Common and John Legend, maybe a mini-tour of the fine, repressed towns of Pierre, the ironically-named Deadwood, and the even more ironically-named Sioux Falls, places where meth use and HIV infections due to IV drug abuse are flyin’ high.

Invite all the fine Christian youth groups, young women only past the age of consent, which is, as has been mentioned, sixteen, to the concert, and let them listen to Common for a little while. All of a sudden, in their pure white panties, they’ll start feelin’ sticky and strange, like they did for just a moment when they saw Michael W. Smith in concert, but now it’s so much more intense, much hotter, and so goddamn-oops- damn tingly, and, what the hey? No one’s makin’ ‘em feel guilty for it.

Then, the trap set, the troop of smooth black dudes heads into the club or American Legion Hall to start dancin’ with the beautiful, snow-white daughters, all of whom are at least 16, of South Dakota. If a Taye Diggs-lookin’ man is whisperin’ in your ear, movin’ slow to that groove, while John Legend is singin’ “Let’s Get Lifted Again,” you are goin’ to promise to do anything to fuck that man.

Which, of course is the end result of the evening. Fuckin’. Lots of fuckin’. All consensual. All without drugs or alcohol. All above 16. Just pure, passionate, oh, shit, ain’t this fun, fuckin’. The cherry poppin’ noises’ll make it sound like New Year’s Eve. Those upstandin’ Christian white girls’ll be shoutin’ their “Hallelujahs” and “Amens” and really know what those words mean.

And when the night is over? Well, shit, it’s South Dakota, man. Get those guys out of there. Fast. You seen how they treat the Indians who live there? How do you think they’re gonna treat visitin’ non-whites?

Over the next few weeks, months even, as periods are missed and crocodile tears are shed (for, indeed, there will be few real regrets), you can pretty much bet that abortion on demand will become the law of the land in South Dakota so fast that it’ll seem that yesterday never happened.

You know, to all of you who have posted what you have said has been extremely controversial....ROSY:  your statement makes my blood boil because you are so naive to what is happening to women’s rights in South Dakota do you realize that “Napoli” has basically made himself God, thrown out all wages of democracy and decided to take it upon himself to make everyone be pro-life.  Religiously that is nice but we were all given minds, thoughts and opinions for choice.....whether you are against abortion or for it think first are you pro-choice, this is the issue to have choice.....have you taken time to read Roe v. Wade....the situation occurring in South Dakota is so deep and far beyond what is being written on this board, whether God believed in abortion or not, he created it.  The 14th Amendment which is the key to protection on the state level is all about “due process” first generated to protect newly freed slaves from authorities.  Nonetheless, in order for the 14th amendment to be legitimate and apply to everyone the United States Supreme Court eventually made the 14th amendment apply as due process for citizens in all states regardless of race.  That application came with the Weeks case in 1913.  Today all states due to selective incorporation have the benefit of The Bill of Rights (i.e. rights which, under a society’s laws, citizens and/or residents either have, want to have, or ought to have).  Its not right to choose to take women’s rights (abortion) while continuing to keep other rights which apply the same thing....taking life (war, death penalty, etc. etc. etc.).  What makes abortion so wrong.  Yes I do understand how it feels to carry a child who is yours, part of you, carried by you, is there when you are alone for 9 months, I understand the love that you can have for a child once it begins to develop sometimes even earlier than that, BUT WHAT GIVES ANYONE ANY RIGHT TO DECIDE WHETHER A WOMAN SHOULD CONCEIVE OR ABORT A CHILD, WHO MADE ANYONE GOD, HOW CAN YOU WITH ANY DIGNITY TAKE CHOICE FROM A WOMAN.  A WOMAN WHO WILL BE MORESO DAMAGED BY THIS SURGERY THAN ANYONE ELSE, WHO HAS THE RIGHT TO TAKE HER DECISION AND TO MAKE HER AGAINST HER WILL CARRY A CHILD THAT SHE MAY NOT BE READY TO TAKE CARE OF, IN THIS DAY AND TIME EVERYONE DOES NOT PRESERVE THEIR VIRGINITY UNTIL MARRIAGE, HOWEVER SOME DO THE SITUATION CONTINUES THAT MANY DO NOT, SO THEN WHAT HAPPENS NEXT YOU OUTLAW SEX OUT OF WEDLOCK AND IF IT DOES HAPPEN THEN YOU DO WHAT THEY DID IN OLD TIMES AND FORCE MARRIAGE UPON THEM.  HAS ANYONE EVER THOUGHT THAT EVOLUTION IS CHANGE AND YOU MOVE FORWARD NOT REGRESS....WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE WORLD!!!!

I wonder if any of these “women” ever thought of birth control...or sterilization...or just keeping their legs closed ?—Walter

***********************

Last time I checked, Walter, it takes two people to make a child and not just one—blaming women for unplanned pregnancy suggests that men shouldn’t be expected to take responsibility for their own choices, which is a little too conveniently ironic considering that your argument claims that abortion results from a lack of personal responsibility! I wonder how many of these “men” ever thought about condoms...or having a vasectomy...or just keeping their flies zipped?  It works both ways, fella!

Irresponsibility is not particular to women. If a man wants to have sex—especially since men seem to place such a high premium on it—he should be willing to consider the consequences and take precautions simply for his own benefit instead of leaving it all up to his partner. If a man doesn’t want to deal with an unplanned pregnancy, he should make certain that he *always* uses condoms even if his partner claims that she’s protected—either that, or not have sex.

To all confused pro-aborts out there.  Prior to Roe vs Wade women ALWAYS had the right to abortion for medical reasons.  Doctors always aborted the child if the mothers life was endangered by the pregnancy. This is why the Catholic Church had an edict about it.  Even in the deep south doctors were aborting babies to save the life of the mother, as early as 1939!

Someone asked how many women abort every year due to “health.” According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, the pro abortion think tank of Planned Parenthood, that percentage is EXACTLY 1%.

Sorry but have to make my point here again. WE are coming out of the closet.  You look extremely silly argueing with women who have “been there done that” when you believe the abortionist profiting from her instead of believing her experience.

Also, last but not least. The term “doctor” is a lie too.  No woman consults a doctor about an abortion.  She goes to see an abortionist whose main goal is to take the life of her child for profit.

This is in response to “Rosy”, who commented on how she feels sorry for women who have had abortions because they will never feel their precious babies move.  That is a ridiculous comment as it assumes, first of all, that women who have had abortions will never have children.  It also assumes that everyone believes as she does - that at the moment of conception, it is a baby.  I have had an abortion.  I do not regret my abortion.  I am eternally grateful that I was able to have a safe one.  I have also since then had a baby and I STILL don’t regret having an abortion.  I do not need “Rosy” to feel sorry for me because I’ve had an abortion.

We should consider banning South Dakota. (I have a travel web site.)

Also what about men who opt to getting a Vasectomy?  Is that a form of birth control?  Will doctors be able to sterilize women?  Will men who make women pregnant be held resposible for all of the babies who are saved from abortion?  Can they afford to support all of their babies?

Peace,
Aimee

molly darling,

the nutwhacks are on fire. thank you. i’m ready for the nukes to fly. we are dust. i plan on having a martini in one hand and chocolate in the other as i watch this insane ass parade of bitter bitter shriveled up people march us to the end of time. death to us all can not come soon enough. we as a country deserve to die. today. now. please please please let south dakota be the new ground zero.

yours in christ,

princess katrina woman

In Comment #4893, Dave Moberg asks “Where in God’s Green Earth do you see ANYTHING even REMOTELY related to abortion??” The answer is “The right of the people to be secure in their persons, ...” This clause guarantees every one of us the right to determine what will be done to and with our own bodies.  This right is what stops others from being able to force you to donate blood, or bone marrow, or even organs such as a kidney or lung, against your will.  Not even if your failure to do so will cost a REAL human being their life.  If people like Dave would like to deny women the right to determine how their bodies will be used (i.e. their uteruses), then they themselves should be ready to give up the right to refuse to donate THEIR body parts.  After all, you can live perfectly fine with one kidney, or one lung.  You can replace the blood and bone marrow you’d be forced to donate.  My point is that a fetus, regardless or whether or not it is a human being already, does NOT have a right to use a woman’s uterus against her will.  No more than I have a right to use Dave’s blood or bone marrow against his will. Even if I would die without it.

In Comment #4894, Steve-o states “If you can’t afford to raise a child or don’t want one - keep your pants on!” So he is maintaining that, because a woman engages in an act that some small percentage of the time results in a pregnancy (for example, I’ve engaged in sex thousands of times, resulting in only 3 pregnancies: my three kids whom I love dearly), then the government is justified in denying her medical treatment to alleviate the result.  By that logic, the government would be justified in denying Steve-o medical treatment for being in a car wreck.  After all, he knows whenever he gets in a car, that there is some small probability that he will be in a car wreck.  If he doesn’t want to be lying in the gutter with his head split open, then he should get off his ass, and WALK where he wants to go.  My point is that, just because you engage in some act by choice, that does not mean that you forfeit the right to medical treatment for any “unfortunate results” of that act that might ensue. How many surgeries has Evel Knievel undergone, for HIS reckless behavior over the years?  We have never denied him medical treatment.  Yet people like Steve-o want to deny women medical treatment because of behavior that is perfectly normal and natural (sex).

The bottom line is that no one has the right ot tell anyone (including women) what they have to do with their own bodies.  That was the basis of the decision in Roe v. Wade.  And that is still perfectly valid today.

Carl Sagan, the late great Cosmologist and author, was ever the logical scientist, even when it came to the emotion laden issue of abortion. If our society, morally and legally, accept a flatline EEG as clinical death at one end of life, he posited, why then can we not accept flatline EEG at the other end? Since the fetal brain develops brain waves only at the start of the third trimester, he proposed, perhaps we can be consistent, and accept that as the start of life, just as we accept the cessation of brain waves as clinical death. His proposal requires some give and take by both sides. The question is, can we give as well as take?

The religious wrong have not read Number 5:12-29 where it talks abou a husband jealous about his wife having maybe had sex with another. A test is given and the honest women shall cocieve while the unfaithful wife shall abort.
So it appears God is not against abortion.
He is also not against whores since when Judah visited what he though a prostitute but who was the wife of his deceased son, the ouctome of this illicit liason was Perez who was to become the forefather of David and misbegotten one

R.A. Earl —thanks for letting all of us know that we keep debating the same points ... maybe because THEY DON’T CHANGE .The issue is what it is .. the facts are what they are ... What was your new enlightening idea ? hmmm.. let’s see .. people banding together to decide how other’s should conduct themselves .. gee , sounds like representative government to me!What is really destroying our society is those who feel that each individual is his own little universe and shouldn’t be required to conform to ANYTHING except what they want. Certain norms for a decent law abiding society SHOULD be enacted and enforced, otherwise there is chaos ... the problem lies in the point that some think that they should never be made to abide by any law / norm that prohibits their self destructive behavior .. yes yes .. it is “your” destructive behavior - but many times the foolishness of a few affects many ... people will always have some sort of authority to answer to or some entity that has at least some POWER OVER all of us, so grow up and deal with it.

nelliebly, you really don’t get it do you? You really think that these so-called “Bible-Waving” politicians are just trying to steal privacy away from women?? You actually believe that?  As I’ve said before, Roe v Wade is about the federal government usurping power away from the states, away from the people, therefore allowing the bible-wavers and Jesus-Freaks to have their positions voiced, and the heathen godless hellbound aetheists to have their voices heard equally. 

Why won’t you people listen??

IT IS NOT ABOUT PRIVACY!

It’s about respecting LIFE and LIBERTY.  Freedom to choose your laws.  Freedom of self government, freedom of DEMOCRACY.  There is no reference to anything close to abortion in the Constitution- no mention of the word “privacy” anywhere, the 4th Amendment is not relevant in this issue at all.  The States therefore have the right to decide for themselves on this issue.

nellie, you want the “freedom to make your own choices”?? Well then you should be at the front of the Supreme Court Steps protesting Roe v Wade.  Unless you’re afraid that the Bible-Wavers are actually the majority?

I am saddened when I read these emails placed by men and women tearing each other apart over a difference of opinion on religion and abortion. I am currently 10 weeks pregnant. I love my baby! I have two little boys and the oldest (my three year old) is so excited about cute baby. To all those women who are trashing those who don’t believe in abortion have you never been pregnant? Have you ever felt the baby move and just wanted to hold it and protect it. I feel my babies move at 16 weeks and when they are born they know my voice. I don’t need science to tell me when my baby starts to feel. They honestly don’t know. They just discovered that babies cry in utero at 28 weeks. I am pro life and I am religious. I like C.S. Lewis believe that our idea of right and wrong came from somewhere. I feel sorry for all those women who get abortions. I grieve for them because they will never feel that precious baby move. They will never feel the joy of holding that squirming bundle even if they can’t keep it. I am proud of all young women that have the babies and give them up for adoption because they could not afford the baby and the babies father was either a rapist or a dead beat. I watched friends who had wanted a baby for years able to adopt. I saw their gratitude for an unselfish young woman who just wanted her baby to have everything that she had but could not provide it herself. I have friends who have given up babies and while they regretted getting pregnant at the time they did and being unable to raise the baby themselves they have never regretted that their baby lived and has parents who love him. They are now married and have other children and while they never forget that they gave up a child they also thank God that they didn’t kill it. I am so very grateful that I waited until I was married to be intimate. I have two beautiful boys and it would have broke my heart to give them away, but I know I would have if I had been raped and unmarried. Those things you can heal from. Rape is not your choice therefore not the victim’s responsibility. I am not saying that rape is an easy thing to get over. I had a roomate who had been raped by one of her brother’s friends. We used to talk and she would cry but she knew that it wasn’t her fault. She still had a hard time with trust but she knew that she was not responsible for this young man’s actions. The young man was responsible for his own actions and deep down no matter how much he can justify he knows it’s wrong. I feel the same about abortion and deep down I know that it is wrong.  They wanted my Mom to abort her last child telling her that she would die. She looked at them and calmly said no then went home to plan her furneral and the birth of number eight. She did not die and neither did the baby. I am grateful that my Mom had the faith to do what she knew to be right. I am grateful that she chose to have my sister. I am also grateful that my sister inlaws Mom was also such a lady or she wouldn’t be a part of our family. Here’s to the courageous women out there who just do what they know deep down to be the right thing.

I am saddened when I read these emails placed by men and women tearing each other apart over a difference of opinion on religion and abortion. I am currently 10 weeks pregnant. I love my baby! I have two little boys and the oldest (my three year old) is so excited about cute baby. To all those women who are trashing those who don’t believe in abortion have you never been pregnant? Have you ever felt the baby move and just wanted to hold it and protect it. I feel my babies move at 16 weeks and when they are born they know my voice. I don’t need science to tell me when my baby starts to feel. They honestly don’t know. They just discovered that babies cry in utero at 28 weeks. I am pro life and I am religious. I like C.S. Lewis believe that our idea of right and wrong came from somewhere. I feel sorry for all those women who get abortions. I grieve for them because they will never feel that precious baby move. They will never feel the joy of holding that squirming bundle even if they can’t keep it. I am proud of all young women that have the babies and give them up for adoption because they could not afford the baby and the babies father was either a rapist or a dead beat. I watched friends who had wanted a baby for years able to adopt. I saw their gratitude for an unselfish young woman who just wanted her baby to have everything that she had but could not provide it herself. I have friends who have given up babies and while they regretted getting pregnant at the time they did and being unable to raise the baby themselves they have never regretted that their baby lived and has parents who love him. They are now married and have other children and while they never forget that they gave up a child they also thank God that they didn’t kill it. I am so very grateful that I waited until I was married to be intimate. I have two beautiful boys and it would have broke my heart to give them away, but I know I would have if I had been raped and unmarried. Those things you can heal from. Rape is not your choice therefore not the victim’s responsibility. I am not saying that rape is an easy thing to get over. I had a roomate who had been raped by one of her brother’s friends. We used to talk and she would cry but she knew that it wasn’t her fault. She still had a hard time with trust but she knew that she was not responsible for this young man’s actions. The young man was responsible for his own actions and deep down no matter how much you can justify you know it’s wrong. I feel the same about abortion and deep down I know that it is wrong.  They wanted my Mom to abort her last child telling her that she would die. She looked at them and calmly said no then went home to plan her furneral and the birth of number eight. She did not die and neither did the baby. I am grateful that my Mom had the faith to do what she knew to be right. I am grateful that she chose to have my sister. I am also grateful that my sister inlaws Mom was also such a lady or she wouldn’t be a part of our family. Here’s to the courageous women out there who just do what they know deep down to be the right thing.

Rarely do I agree with Ivins, but in this case she is right on. In my child-bearing years, I would not have chosen abortion, but that’s my personal decision. Even so, I want all women everywhere to have the freedom to make that very serious and troublesome decision for themselves and not some stuffy, pompous Bible-waving politician. Roe-versus-Wade will not go away because women will not allow that to happen. For those who disagree, I have this bit of advice: Live your own life and let others live theirs. And take your Bible with you.

Please stop all the whining about how difficult it is to raise a child ...the hardships you face are a result of your own irresponsible behavior. Having to work a low wage job, lack of male support etc. are stressful no doubt - but - maybe ..just maybe you and your “partner” should have used a little restraint or better judgment before participating in an act that most likely produces a child ...women AND MEN should take responsibility for the decisions they make .. If you can’t afford to raise a child or don’t want one - keep your pants on!

4th Amendment My Ass.
Here is the ENTIRE TEXT of the 4th Amendment:

“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized.”

Where in God’s Green Earth do you see ANYTHING even REMOTELY related to abortion??  This amendment is solely concerned with searches of property, persons and detaining without warrants.  There is nothing in this amendment that covers your so-called “right to choose.” It’s about your right to private property.

And ravenguard, don’t ever try to pull that “no religion” in laws crap, because in the first place, you liberals love to assume that all conservatives and all pro-lifers are against abortion because we have the Holy Spirit and a bad case of Jesus Fever- which is ridiculous.  Sure the idiots protesting outside of the abortion clinics are, well, idiots- and that’s the only pro-life media coverage out there.  However, the real “agenda” pro-lifers have is not to create Biblical Law, it’s to ensure that the government fulfills its first and foremost obligation to the American People- protecting its citizens. 
What is religion??  What is Law??
Are they not based more or less on your hated “morals”??  How can you separate religion and law?  You cannot, unless you selectively brand all laws that deal with social issues as “religious interference.” What about “Thou shalt not steal"- should we decriminalize shoplifting and larsony because it’s “offensive and intolerantly religious”??  Almost all “religions” condemn theft- so what.  If we are to have this “separation of Church and State” (which is a grossly distorted and perverted idea, congrats, you have a handful of quotations taken out of context of the founding fathers, have a cookie), than we can in effect have no laws at all, because somewhere, some religion sanctions similar principals!! OH NO!!!

Your selective intellect and falacious logic is not only offensive, it’s dangerous and infectious.  High Horse Liberals who claim that conservatives are all “holier than thou,” should turn the mirror around when it comes to Roe V Wade.  If you are so against the federal gov telling you what you can do with “your own body” than why don’t you do the honest thing and strike down Roe, which strips the power away from you and me to truly “choose.” States are given the rights to decide these matters not specifically dealt with in the Constitution, and anyone who thinks that abortion is in any way shape or form dealth with in it is a moron, or has been brainwashed.  READ THE CONSTITUTION before opening your mouth.

Just a quick observation or two…

First, I’ve not discovered even ONE new position or notion posted in this forum. It’s as if the entire issue is stuck in some kind of time-warping, revolving cultural/religious door operating within the American psyche. Talk about boring and futile verbiage!

Secondly, where along the way was it decided that “some” people could band together to decide for “other” people how they should live their lives?

This is a crystal clear example of how the collective in the USA has embarked upon the road of POWER OVER, which, in my view, leads to an abyss from which there is no return.

It’s too bad… the first few hundred years of the American experiment, based on POWER WITH, looked so promising.

end the ignorance
http://www.abort73.com

... Please show us in the Constitution where it mentions these “rights to privacy” so many liberals espouse ... and for the billionth time, seperation of Church and state is nothing more than a catch phrase for those trying to force their immoral choices and lifestyles on the general public ...The United States government does not force religion on anyone. Throwing out a few selected quotes from the founding fathers has no effect whatsoever on what is already in the constitution. Most abortions are- and will always be just a conveinent tool to eliminate a human life because someone couldn’t be responsible enough, or was too weak minded to control their behavior.. we need to stop making excuses and change the behavior that results in this tragic issue ... if you don’t want a child, keep your pants on !

Five responses:

1. Kim - You claim that men need to be held responsible for their sexual decisions just like women.  I agree with you and that is why I am pro-life.  Only the pro-life view can hold men responsible.  We need to have men who are committed to women in marriage and willing to support their children.  Being pro-abortion is just what these “raping” guys want.  They want they women they have sex with to abort the fetus so they are not responsible.  That is why the biggest segment of the population that is pro-abortion is “young males”.

2.  Laralee - You claim, “A fertilized egg is not a baby or a child.  Anyone who thinks that has a limited grasp of science.”

Here are quotes from science textbooks that contradict your claim.  The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology, 6th ed.
Keith L. Moore, Ph.D. & T.V.N. Persaud, Md., (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), 2-18.

“[The