Re:  Comment #36909 by Guitarsandmore on 11/06 at 4:13 pm

You said something about you being asked by right wing conservatives about how to do it (a false flag event).  I certainly would like to know more about this but totally understand if you can’t talk about it, but if possible, I would like to know the name of the book so that I might order it.  Anyway thanks for the comment--I’m more hopeful now that the democrats have taken control of the house and maybe also the Senate, but it looks like Bush is still in there for the long haul.

In thirty years we will look back and count the dead and maimed as casualities from the conflict in Iraq. To what gain? To what great deed? And we will once again ask ourselves ‘why?’ This is the legacy of humanity. We do not learn from our past mistakes, we refuse to look at history and therefore repeat it. On a personal level and on a societal level, we are determined to walk through the battlefield of life and constantly decide between good and evil. This will never change. But what can change is the choices we make as individuals and as a society at large. America has let the situtation in Iraq happen to itself. Unfortunately, countless other people are sucked up in the wake of our country’s foreign and domestic political agenda which is bent on greed, control, fear, and patriotism. No oil in Iraq = no war in Iraq. The war in Iraq was a result of revenge and misguided policies bent on the feelings of devestation we all felt after 9-11. Invading Afghanistan appeared to be the more ‘logical’ choice - but again - what logic is there in war? I have often chosen to react to a situation and anger has gotten the best of me at times, our men and womenin Iraq are a far stretch from my own personal downfalls as a human being. How we are changing the future of our society by involvement in Iraq on the current level is uknown because of the effects of war on individuals that return as casualties.

The US needs to pull out of Iraq; apologize to the Iraqis and to the UN; agree to pay reparations to Iraq; prosecute and perhaps even execute Bush, Cheney, and a number of other people who got us into this mess by deception; and end our worse-than-useless “alliance” with Israel.

To Kathy Sullivan:

There is certainly reason to think about a conspiracy and wonder. I don’t know if there was one or not but I do know this:

In the mid 1990s there was much interest from right wing conservatives as to “how” it could be done and the reasons given were to wake up America to the danger in the world.

I was asked “how” to do it.

“How” it could be done.

There was a least one book written about how to do it.

The information was out there, now, who did it really?  I don’t know.

Right wing nuts are nuts for sure, but I got no more proof than what I have just given you.

But what can you do about them? The only recourse we have is to vote them out but make sure they are adequately represented in government so that it doesn’t ever come to this again.  All points of view should be heard, represented, and debated.

I would also put a moratorium on all these Rambo inspired films that glorify violence in favor of showing what war really is.

RE: Comment #36832 by Hemi on 11/06 at 8:51 am

Scheer has never been afraid before of being labeled “conspiracy” theorist.  He has been in the forefront and leader in breaking stories since I can remember.  His silence on 9/11 official story is really baffling.  The evidence for an “inside job” is out there and I know he must be tuned in to it.  Oh well, the rest of the Left is ignoring the obvious too.  I’m canceling my subsciptions to The Progressive Populist, Mother Jones, In These Times, etc.  They are so yesterday!!

Re: Scheer and the 9/11 “official story”:  I have through the many years depended on Scheer telling truth to power.  Lately I have been disappointed in his lack of response to the 9/11 official story.  The are so many holes in it and he remains silent.  He goes on and on about other issues and ignors the elephant in the room.  I know, i know, he already got fired from the L.A. Times.  That’s no excuse; he’s the media, he’s all we’ve got to tell the truth!!!!  Come on Scheer--you’ve never been mainstream--we know you know.  Why the silence??

On the subject of Robert Scheer writing as if accepting the “official” 9/11 story. There are enough credible people tugging at the credibility of the story. If he were to go down that path he lumps himself in with the “conspiracy” crowd.

I don’t know this for certain, but I believe he has chosen to question as if the story were true so as to not be labeled a conspiracist and thereby lose any part of the audience. There is more than enough grist for milling without the conspiracy aspect. What could be better than “hoist by their own petard”?

I had failed to note Scheer believes the “official” 911 story,(Kathy Sullivan,#36620)which is riddled with lies, misinformation, dis- information, and ignores real facts on the ground. Patriotic citizens who want to check out alternative media evaluations in search of the truth will find much to ponder at:
http://www.911mysteries.com

Several of their powerfully documented videos have played up here on the Burlington,s “Vermont Community Access Media” on Channel 15. Perhaps others in the country might like to see them shown in their communities too. A great opportunity for grassroots citizens action presents itself here. The situation is, of course, 100 times more complicated than Watergate ever was, and the real truth may never see the light of day, given the Fascist/Republican “Axis of Evil” ruling in this country and the world today. iclrevusa.com

Mr. Scheer’s current article comparing the Iraq debacle with the blatantly staged Gulf of Tonkin start of the Vietnam War is a breadth of fresh air.

Did anyone else that reads Truthdig catch Elizabeth Dole’s embarrassing performance on Meet the Press this morning?  She interrupted Rahm Emmanuel’s comments incessantly with no more than RNC blather.  No wonder her husband had a stroke; I was screaming for her to shut the F up!  My husband’s comment was that will really hurt any woman running for political office.  She’s pulled the RNC line that “We’re the truly responsible party for security”, allowing all of us to become war criminals, with the signing of the 2006 Military Commissions Act.

Then too, I read an article in the Sunday New York Times that referred to a 1999 analysis of War Games which studied the result of overthrowing Saddam Hussein through invasion.  The deduction said that even with 400,000 troops in Iraq, there was no way that Iraq could decome a democracy(remember that lie).  I can’t wait for the discussion to come to this fact that was ignored by BushCoInc because they wanted/needed the Iraq war to line their pockets.  A scifi movie couldn’t be written more bizarrely.  It is just amazing.

Sorry about the error:

“Cut and Run” means “to engage in a cowardly retreat”.  See definition here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_and_run

After three and a half years of fighting I don’t think anyone could accuse U.S. troops of being anything less then very committed and brave soldiers.

Having said that, why stay and fight any longer than you have to?

• Saddam is gone
• Democracy installed
• WMD not found

What the hell are we still doing there?  Leaving after mission accomplished is not a cowardly retreat.

But staying in Iraq longer than we have to; smacks of subterfuge, ulterior motives, lies, and deception.

“Cut and Run” means “to engage in a cowardly retreat”.  See definition here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut_and_run

After three and a half years of fighting I don’t think anyone could accuse U.S. troops of being anything less then very committed and brave soldiers.

Having said that, why stay and fight any longer than you have to?

• Saddam is gone
• Democracy installed
• WMD not found

What the hell are we still doing there?  Leaving after mission accomplished is not a cowardly retreat. It smacks of subterfuge, ulterior motives, lies, and deception.

Mr. Scheer, I’m really disappointed in you.  You still have not researched 9/11, the official story.  Please do so.  Everything you write is irrelevant because you have believed the “official story” of 9/11.  When the neocons have lied about everything, why do you insist on believing the “official story”??  I know you are a very busy person, but please just take one day and see all the wonderful films on the internet that have been made on the subject.  We cannot brush this under the rug like we did the Kennedy assasination.  Our country needs to face the truth.  That is the only way we will finally heal.

Re Comment #36008 by jim:

“You should bar this Spinoza character.  He is a provocateur, probably working for the neocons.”

If so, he’s doing a pretty good impersonaton of a familiar type of leftie. I’ve read a lot of his previous posts, many of which I more or less agree with. Besides, curtailing of First Amendment rights is a job best left to the pros, i.e., BushCo.

Also, Spinoza writes, “Our slogan should be: The only good right winger is a dead one.” So what’s provocative about that?

Every time I hear George “cut one” Bush, I know he’s full of it. Hugo isn’t the only one who smells something.

while 36338 george vreeland hill says,

china sides with nk......

================

even though nk is supposed to be an “ally”, china isnt too crazy about a nuclear nk either, it has done more than its fare share to get nk to talk to uncle sham the tormentor.
well what do you know?  those sobs like wolfowitz and cheney etc, amongst others, did their damndest to sabotage china’s efforts so far, whats more, those sobs then blame china for the failure, accusing china of using nk as its pitbull to intimate japan and good ole uncle sham.....
typical yankee duplicity i would say.

It is very interesting to note that when Benito Mussolini governed Italy he made a statement that a nation, in order to stay strong, had to go to war every 25 years.  People were outrage at this remark and thought he was somewhat demented.  It so happens that the USA goes to war on the average of every 15 years----how ‘bout that??!!  If you don’t believe me---get a history book.

While the Bush Administration waste txpayers monies and precious lives in Iraq; China is roaming the globe to position itself as the next superpower-signing all kinds of treaties with Venezuela, Brazil, and many countries in Africa. It is a shame that George W. has his head stuck in the sand.  Wake up America before it is too late. This Administration is giving the store away.

Dear Robert Scheer:

Where is:

THE CALL FOR IMPEACHMENT?

Even in all the verbosity of the other commentators: only 1 “call for the removel of the leaders” as part of a subsection 3., this by Horrorfied, and a “end of disaster starts Nov. 7th” this by someone a little farther down from Horrorfied.

For all of your own horror is that all you call for, a...ah, well, let’s see what happens with the
Diabold chip, the negitive campaigning and voter imtimidation, and...ah, well, if the Republicans hold out , ah, well, we’ll vote someone in in ‘08.

And if the Democrats take control of the Houses of Congress we’ll have ah, oh...two months until the new session and you have to look at the first 100 days report…

AND IN THE MEAN TIME THE US SOLDIERS CONTINUE TO DIE AND SEVERE LIMBS AND RATTLE BRAINS, AND IRAQIS CONTINUE TO MURDER EACH OTHER, AND THE WAR PROFITEERS OF THE BUSH/CHENEY LOBBY GOURGE THEMSELVES ON THE TAXPAYER’S BLOOD AND SWEAT AT THE TUNE OF 100’S 0F BILLIONS OF DOLLARS!

The CALL FOR IMPEACHMENT: should be consistent and concise. All the gloriuous energy of the above mentioned verbosity should be tapered and tempered to begin and/or end with the question of and CALL FOR IMPEACHMENT.

This CALL FOR IMPEACHMENT should be delivered until Victory Is Won to all Editors and Governmental Representatives until the message is Clear. The message is not so much the Impeachment of the Bush/Cheney administration but the:

CALL TO IMPEACH THE BEHAVIOR OF WAR AS A PART OF THE DAILY COMMERCE OF INDUSTRY—FOR IT PRECLUDES ANY ATTEMPT FOR THE PURSUITS OF LIBERTY AND HAPPINESS. THUS IT IS TIME FOR NOT THE SONS OF SLAVE OWNERS AND THE SONS OF SLAVES TO COME TOGETHER, YET IT IS THE TIME FOR THE CHILDREN OF SLAVES AND THE CHILDREN OF INDENTURED SERVENTS TO COME TOGETHER AND SAY NO MORE WAR FOR THE CHILDREN OF THE ECONOMIC ELITE!

Thus it will matter not if the Diabold chip prevails or the DLC Democrats control the Houses of Congress. What will matter is the consistent and concise VOICE OF THE PEOPLE and its:

CALL FOR IMPEACHMENT.

You think this election is going to change anything? HA!

First off we have to get by Diebold and all the other election fraud. And even IF somehow the Dems get control they’re all still beholden to the “military industrial complex” that has every elected official by the balls. WE NEED WAR! This nation spends nearly 5 times the rest of the world combined on weapons - you think the people that make money off of that massive production of destruction are simply going to give it up and start making silly-putty?

We’re a war nation - always have been - always will be. Oh, we like to think we’re a peaceful people, but I don’t think you could convince the Native Americans we slaughtered to settle this continent of that or any of the people in the 120 nations we currently have troops stationed in either.

Mad George is just a reflection of our own madness. And they’re coming to take us away, ho-ho-he-he-ha-ha!

R.Sheer is right on the money about Madness. He is not alone. Brits poll shows that allies distrust Bush and view Bush as more dangerous than Kim of North Korea.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1938434,00.html

The Bush creed seems to be if we say it often enough it will become truth; if there’s a problem, say we’ll fix it, but do nothing, the public will forget it next week. The American public are not morons. Sixty plus percent already get it. A lot of the rest are unwilling to admit they’ve been had or are afraid of losing party support for re-election. We need more articles like this to remind us of how shameless this administration is about lying to the people.

well… there is not much to add,
since it takes one to know one, and aware of Dubyass history, the only “cut and run” going on is one from the truth, a life time of “cut and run” from the truth… an stange to say, a large part of the nation has been running with him. Oh, I can’t resist - girly man? body building?, cheerleading? - these also are “takes one to know one”. first part of CONservative is CON and what a con job it’s been for 30 plus years.

I never thought I would live long enough to say that there was ever a presidential administration more scandalous than that of the wretch Richard Milhouse Nixon and his tax evading sidekick Spiro Agnew. But, alas, Shrubya Bush and Dick Vader Chaney have managed to do the damned thing with relish and gravy. Though they may squander enough money to evade prison in this life, I live with the consolation that there lay a special place in the rancid bowels of HELL for that evil pair of lying rats. With the false prophesies from the neo-conservatives that fueled this episode of American decline, this administration and all its cronies should be burned as witches.

Bill Clinton is no longer the worst president in American history. In fact Bush makes me miss Johnson, Nixon and Reagan.

36338 george vreeland hill says,

We owe money to China.
A country that sides with North Korea

====================

i wonder what does that mean, probably you are saying that china sucks coz it sides with nk, a member of the axis of evil eh ? [sic]
funny, the world seems to agree with china’s choice though.

in the first place, what do you expect china to do when uncle scam is trying to put a noose around its neck?

Found your article extremely insightful. I am a disabled vietnam vet who finds this Iraq debacle extremely distressing. I also found Ron Kovic’s article The Forgotten Wounded of Iraq particularly disturbing as it hit a raw nerve. Bush’s determination to keep killing thousands just as Johnson and Bush did is criminal. Also what is extremely disturbing is the treatment of the returning young men and women blown apart by an IED, RPG, Booby trap, shrapnel or god Knows what. In Vietnam these soldiers more then likely would have died from their wounds. I was made aware of a facility being built in San Antonio Texas to handle these thousands of returning Vets. I was astounded to find out that Bush has been attempting to cut back millions in funds for veterans hospitals. Therefore this facility had to be funded by the private sector Intrepid Fallen Heros Fund. I contributed as much as I could afford but thanks to people like Don Imus Tim Russert Cher and many many others 35 million dollars was raised. Are you ready for the kicker? Halliburton declined to make a contribution.
At any rate sorry to ramble on your article was extemely well done.

H. L. Mencken wrote that “You can never lose money betting against the intelligence of the American Public.” Perhaps no truer words were ever spoken.  This election will tell us.

Personally, if this election does not result in
Democratic control of the congress, I’m out of here.  I love this country, but I hate what it has become under this administration.  Canada is looking mighty attractive right about now.

George W. Bush and the Republican way of cover-ups, lies, and more! 
Bush will get what he wants no matter what.
Bully.
Break the law.
Lie.
Then come up with reasons why he is right.
Well guess what?
Bush is wrong!
You do not spy on Americans without legal permission.
That is KGB like.
The courts are starting to agree.
You do not go to war with another country without proof of the need for war.
Iraq was no threat to the United States.
Yes, Saddam Hussein was evil and had a lot of people killed, but how many Iraqi citizens have been killed since this war started? 
How many of our brave service men and women have been killed in Iraq?
How many more will die?
Iraq right now, is in the worst mess it has ever been in.
This was not the case before Bush started this war.
Hey Bush: This war is against terrorists, not with countries. 
WMD? Not there!
Did you know that George W. Bush once made fun of the issue of Weapons of Mass Destruction?
He did, and in front of some shocked people during a black-tie event in 2004. 
He said.... (While looking under a piece of furniture) “Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be here somewhere.”
Then, while pretending to look out of a window, Bush laughed as he said..... “Nope, no weapons over there.”
While he was laughing, there were men and women fighting and dying in Iraq because of WMD.
George W. Bush should be removed from office because of that alone.
Face it, Bill Clinton lied about having sex, and was impeached because of it.
George W. Bush however, did far worse, as he laughed at the very people who are fighting for the United States of America!
Bush laughs at a lot of things.
While we were under attack, he just sat there.
He has no clue about how to run things.
Speaking of running, that is what many Republicans are doing right now.
Running from their own corruption.
How many are in trouble now?
From Nixon/Agnew to Scooter and Cheney, all we get from Republicans are cover-ups, lies, and more.
Even President Reagan’s defense secretary, Caspar W. Weinberger, who recently passed away, was so bad, that George H. W. Bush had to bail him out with a pardon to help save the Republican name.
Face it.... the Republican Party is a disgrace.
Time for a change.
It is also time for us to take back our country from the Republican mess that YOU are paying for. 

I am,
GEORGE VREELAND HILL

* Here are some tidbits of note:

President Clinton left us SO MUCH money.
Bush spent it all.
The United States is now in debt.
In fact, we have borrowed money from China!
Think about that.
We owe money to China.
A country that sides with North Korea.
That is the Bush spending policy.
Spend, and then owe.
Bush is an idiot.

Did you know that some Republicans will not have their pictures taken with Bush?
True!
They fear being seen with him.
The GOP is falling apart.

Mark Foley, a Republican member (now ex-member) of Congress, has sent many e-mails with perverted sexual content to a sixteen year old boy.
This is the same man who while in Congress, backed a bill that was meant to protect children from child predators.
Foley himself, is a man who preyed on a child with lust.
What is also incomprehensible, is the fact that many Republicans knew of Foley’s behavior, and yet, did not take a hard stand against this until it became public news.
If I had a teenage son and/or daughter, I would not want them to go near any Republican leader for fear of either or both becoming a victim of a sick Republican pervert.

Dennis Hastert, is a typical Republican who thirsts for power.
If he knew of Foley’s perverted actions with underage kids before they became public, then he must step down.
However, since he thinks in terms of power more than helping people, he will not step down from his position.
This is the Republican way.
Personal power over the people.
Hunger for money combined with cover-ups, lies, tricks, and more so they can keep their power.

It is sad to see the total mess in Washington and overseas that these Republicans blame on others.
Blame the kids who run errands for them as if to say....."If if it were not for the page program, then those kids would not have been here for Foley and others to exploit them.”
Blame Clinton for not doing enough with terrorists, while Bush keeps sending troops to Iraq while North Korea and Iran build massive weapon’s programs.
Hey Republicans: If you did not like the job Bill Clinton did, then do something about it.
After all, you have had six years to do it.
Blame, blame, blame.
The real blame is on the Republican Party.
If they do not take responsibility and handle things, then maybe they should all step down.

Ever since Bush has been in office, North Korea has been very busy with their missile and nuke programs.
Because of this, they are now a grave threat to the world.
Iran is also busy doing the same things, only they are more vocal about what they want to do with their weapons.
What has Bush been doing during all of this?
Sending troops to Iraq.
Ha ha, that is real bright.
There were no WMD in Iraq, but we are there anyway instead of going to where the WMD really are.
If Bush just sits there like he did during 9/11, then we will have a catastrophic event somewhere in the world, or a nuke at the doorstep of Los Angeles.
Bush has lost total control of things, and like Iraq, he has no clue how to deal with it. 

Our Republican leaders have failed to catch bin Laden, even though Bush said that his capture was a top priority.
When it became evident that bin Laden was not going to be caught any time soon, Bush then said that it did not matter if we capture him.
Say what?
The fact is that Bush changed his mind to save face.

We have left our borders open to let millions of rapists, thieves, loafers, and killers enter our country.
These numbers are since 9/11.
Much of California’s bad economy was blamed on Gray Davis, but the fact is, that illegals broke California.
Why was that not stopped?

In New Hampshire, during the 2002 election for the U.S. Senate seat being vacated by Robert C. Smith, the New Hampshire GOP hired GOP Marketplace of Virginia, to jam another phone bank being used by the state Democratic Party in an effort to turn out voters on behalf of then-governor Jeanne Shaheen on Election Day.
John E. Sununu, the Republican candidate, won a narrow victory.
Wikipedia, a free on-line encyclopedia, states that three men have been convicted of, or pled guilty to, federal crimes and sentenced to prison for their involvement as of 2006. A fourth is under indictment.
However, investigators and those who have followed the scandal closely believe that there were more people involved at the national level.
It has been suggested that some high-ranking Republican Senate leaders were aware, and more recently records showing phone calls from the political operative convicted of engineering the scheme have raised questions as to whether officials in the Bush Administration were involved as well.
According to The Raw Story, the fourth man indicted in this phone-jamming scheme, will argue at trial that the Bush Administration and the national Republican Party gave their approval to the plan, so says a motion filed by his attorney.

CIA leaks.

Bush giving the finger to people.
Would FDR have done that? 

Most of us have heard of Rush Limbaugh, the Republican wacko who can’t keep his foot out of his mouth.
Limbaugh has been busy questioning the severity of the disease that Michael J. Fox is suffering from, known as Parkinson’s.
Limbaugh based his knowledge on the matter by comparing the condition of Fox to a couple of people who also have Parkinson’s disease.
Limbaugh is not a doctor, but thinks that he is an expert on Parkinson’s because of what he has seen.
The fact is that Michael J. Fox supports Democrats and stem cell research, and Limbaugh is trying to make a fool out of him, thus making another voice for the Democrats look small.
Limbaugh even mimicked the actions of Parkinson’s disease in front of a camera.
Think about that!
Limbaugh made fun of Parkinson’s disease.
He did that to make the Democrats look small, and the Republicans look big and brave.
Limbaugh, like other Republicans who have questioned the severity of Fox’s condition, are very sick people.
They laugh at those who are sick if they are Democrats.
Limbaugh has now blamed the media for the story after millions of people thought his actions to be repulsive. 
This is the same Rush Limbaugh who once make racial comments about Philadelphia Eagles quarterback, Donovan McNabb, who is African-American.
Limbaugh is obviously an athletic supporter, except he is the kind you wear.
Limbaugh is a typical Republican who will hurt other people to get what he wants.

When Arnold Schwarzenegger ran for office, he said that he would fund his campaign with his own money, and not accept money from outside interests.
Well, as we now know, he took MILLIONS from others while running for office.
These “other” special interest people have more interest in their pockets and their own standing, than in the interests of California.
Arnold’s interests are with wealth and fame.
These “others” and Arnold go hand in hand.
I think we also need an answer from Arnold as to why he took two jobs with muscle magazines so soon after taking office.
This was at a time when California needed him the most.
After all, he said he would be there for the people.
Again, it seems that Arnold put himself ahead of California.

Of course we can’t forget that when it gets close to election time, we always see many road signs that support Democrats start to disappear.
Hum, I wonder what side the sign thieves are on? 
Is this the Republican way of gaining the edge? 

Republicans can’t stand the truth.
When a topic comes up that exposes them, these cowards will discredit the reporter or change the subject in order to made themselves look good.
Their tactics no longer work. 
The people are on to these Republican cowards who can’t fess up.

My thoughts on Iran:
Iran may be a threat in the future, but it is not a threat now.
We have time to think about what to do with Iran. 
We need to start thinking about the best ways to solve problems in the Middle East, and not create new ones.
Because Bush and the Republican Party have no clue how to fix the mess we are in with Iraq, it is best that he and they do nothing with Iran.
Wait until the voters pick better leaders, and believe me, that will not be a hard thing to do.
George Vreeland Hill

Cheer up, people.  Those of us who live and breathe outside the shrinking (and stinking) confines of your MAD(Mutually Abetted Delusion)-ness are here to tell you the ragged tissue of lies and make-believe you call “civilization” is mere moments, actually, away from disintegrating completely.  The shock of its sudden collapse will be equalled only by the awe with which you’ll perceive, finally, the living Universe of possibilities that’s been cruelly hidden away from you and that you are at last free to begin to grow into.  As for those “powers and agencies” who first captured your attention and then trapped your selves inside the virtual prison of their own self-perpetuating fear, best leave them to us.  We know who and what they are, and where they’ve been hiding all this time.  You all will be much too fully engaged, anyhow, taking care of one another in the actual Living arrangement, to be bothered with administering justice to a gang of inveterate criminals who are far beneath you and ages behind you in the natural scheme of things.  As for the “taking care of one another” part, no good reason you can’t be busily about that right now.  And a number of reasons equal to the number of fates-worse-than-death that you oughta be.  So cheer up.  The rule of fear has run its course.  If you run scared from here on you’ll have only your self to blame when you reach the dead-end it takes you to.  Life is just a ‘Song and Dance,’ my friends, so leave off all this shuckin’ and jivin’ to the death-march dirges of your erstwhile tormentors’ Zombie Jamboree.  Let’s see if you can, here at the end of the “world” as you’ve known it, take YES for the answer.  Your friend, OmaniSa (The One Who Walks Everwhere)

Don Pesci, comment 36131: “So then, how many buildings in New York did the Vietcong destroy?”

Is that the best you can do? The answer is the same number as Iraq destroyed: zero. Even the White House has been forced to admit that. In fact, their last word on the subject was to claim that they never suggested that Saddam Hussein had anything to do with 9-11.

It is interesting that since World War II, the US has never fought a an enemy who had the capacity to threaten the US.  Korea was a fight against Communism, which was proven to be a red herring.  Vietnam was fought for the same reason and the same red herring.  And now we have Iraq, this time it’s the Islamo-Fascists and I’m afraid it’s another red herring, though a more serious specie of such.  The war in Iraq is part of the PNAC----an attempt to create a sphere of influence in what is considered a vital part of the world----yes it’s all about the oil!

When I was a kid the common American saying was the only good commie was a dead one.

I suggest that the left stop being wimps.

Our slogan should be: The only good right winger is a dead one.

The scum that is Bush

Keith Olbermann

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15519404/

RE:  • Comment #36131 by Don Pesci  on  11/02  at  4:17 am—“So then, how many buildings in New York did the Vietcong destroy? The parallels between Vietnam and Iraq break down at numerous important points.”
>>>>>>>
In response: Pointless, Iraq didn’t do 9/11 and neither did the inept al Queda patsies. The 9/11 coup was the most stunning false flag intelligence success of all time, but with enough loose ends to convict a lot of people. The strongest parallel is with the Gulf of Tonkin Incident; minor by comparison, but an equally successful false flag operation—recently fully confirmed through released documents.

BTW, Johnson tried the same thing in ‘67, in a conspiracy involving Israel torpedo boats attacking the USS Liberty. Dismissed as an “accident,” it was to be hung on Egypt as a pretext for US direct involvement there. It failed. Johnson gave direct orders to the fleet not to intervene. Liberty’s crew fought valiantly, took heavy looses and saved their ship. Afterward everyone was gagged, but survivors are now talking. http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>

RE:  • Comment #36136 by Dana Mitchell  on  11/02  at  5:06 am—“The real problem with the situation in Iraq is that no one stood up in the begining and said “this is bogus.”
>>>>>>
In response: Wrong, as the resolution was being debated, Robert C. Byrd, speaking passionately from the Senate floor, predicted the enormity of the Iraq folly. He then pointed down Pennsylvania Avenue and warned those at the other end to remember, after dragging his people through decades of senseless war, the fate of England’s King Charles I.

Byrd’s history lesson will return to haunt them. Burgeoning 9/11Truth (only 16% now believe the myth) will eventually land the entire leadership in the dock on charges of treason, hopefully before they can start WWIII.

The horror of this war, the lies, even the torture does nothing to slow these Strange Loves. To end this nightmare support 911Truth!

This an example of Bush’s occupation of Iraq.

Ali Abbas decided that his upper right thigh was the best place for a tattoo because no one gets tortured there.

He’d seen hundred of bodies in the city morgue and dozens of hospitals during his 18-day search for his missing uncle. He’d seen drill marks in swollen, often unrecognizable heads, slash marks across necks, bullet holes in backs, abdomens and swollen hands. He’d seen bodies that had been thrown into the river, so swollen they’d barely looked human. But by and large, the thighs had been intact.

So that’s where he decided to have his name, address and phone number tattooed, in case the day comes when someone is searching for his body.

Tattoos are considered a sin in Islam, which holds that believers shouldn’t deface their bodies. And tattoo shops are difficult to find in Baghdad. They’re often in the basements of more reputable shops.

But at least some tattoo shops are seeing more and more Iraqis who, like Abbas, are willing to risk offending Islam to ease their families’ grief in the event of their deaths. The owner of one tattoo shop in central Baghdad admitted that he’d done such tattoos, but said he didn’t want to talk about it for fear that he’d be killed.

That some Muslims are getting tattoos is an intimate reflection of national chaos, and an outward symbol of the inner turmoil the chaos has created.

There’s nothing artful about these tattoos. The branding has the efficient look of a business card, written in clear, bland type.

President “w” can contemplate what might be going wrong in Iraq with his daddies buddies. Yet, such discussion is not considered anti-war or against the war effort. However, god-forbid that an acutual war hero like Senator John Kerry criticizes “w’s” mismanaged, misguided, ignorant war in Iraq. Kerry spoke the truth about the education levels of our soldiers in Iraq. Unfortuantely, Karl Rove and the Republican spin machine turn Kerry’s comments as disgraceful to our American soldiers.

I would love to see the statistics that demonstrate the education levels of our fighting soldiers. Is it wrong to admit that “w” was a draft dodger, who because of his name was able to serve the national guard and protect us from a vietnamese attack? Then again, I would love to see “w” records, that is if they exist!

Kerry made a blunder by speaking the truth, but his comments were true. Vietnam is a perfect example of who did the dying and fighting in the stupid war to stop the domino theory.

Why cant someone just kill Bush and Cheney?

In reply to Comment # 36170 by JT Long on 11/02.  My setements exately, but do you thank that maybe Bushie Boy is acting dumb but is really smart, after all did he not get an appology from John Kerry, who is a smart man even if he cannot double talk like Bush.  But I have hope that a lot of people can see that this man is not fit to run this country, and if I had my way Bush, Chaney, Rumsfield and Rice were all impeached, but of course that will not happen and if the Dems come into power they will be reduced to figureheads, except of course for this war, which seems to have no answers from any source.

Marge from Vancouver, Washington

36149 anon says.......

=== Had we never joined the fight, we could have lived with a communist Ho easier than with Communist China.  In fact, we should have sided with him in his fight against the Chinese.  We probably wouldn’t have been asked for troops since THE NORTH VIETNAMESE LOVED HO & WERE WILLING FIGHT THEIR WARS THEMSELVES.===

have you thought of another option?
why cant yanks just stay home without fighting somebody for chrissake?
did the chinese ever “threatened your way of life”? [sic]
i have news for you anon, its you who have been threatening the chinese for the past century.
starting from the 1959 cia staged tibetan rebellion to the socalled chinese invasion of india in 1962” to the korean war to the 3 ocassions of nuclear blackmail to the tianamen subversion to the spy plane fiasco to the bombing of embassy to the present encirclement.......
who is the threat and who is the threatened here?
with liberals like this, who need them rednecks huh?
god save us all from the yanks.

Paranoia plus is running our country.  The insanity of the actions of this whte house has been in the creation since GW stepped over the threshold of the oval office.  Now, well now, it has gone way out of bounds and the sad part is that too many Americans are still comatose.  If this ass-licking, criminal congress is not ousted next week, Americans with any mind left had best be packing their bags for new countries.

What the hell did he expect Iraq to attack out nation with?  Baseball bats?  A poem:

HE

He thought Iraq would be a song and dance;
something like a brief romance;
he’d go right in, get his prey, maybe some oil along the way; all within less than a year and a day!

But this old country had news for him;
each item dark, deadly and grim.
‘Twas as if he went blindfolded
onto an unlit routeless path;
sans knowledge as evens unfolded;
the enormity of his scurrilous task;
sans insight into the nation’s psyche,
their Allah guided by his god, Jehova;
their mind-set which could not be
defeated, advised, held-back, replaced
or broken.

Alas, he failed to realize, theorize,
analyze, what drove Iraqis down a one-way street.
Ho!  He failed to grasp resistance he would meet;
resistance like he’d never known, conceived of in his wildest dreams!

Thus, unawares, revengeful seeds he’s sown in
forms of the living human, vehemently determined
on this day to turn back his unjust deeds,
on America-in any form, in any way,
for on the road to heaven, it is demanded by Jehova!

Lay him at the feet of Pharoahs
Sit him on the throne of Czars
Name him Tyrant for he deposed
The finite war to end all wars!

Every generation must learn the same lessons over and over again. Every death in Iraq, American and Iraqi is in vain. America seems to be destined to always be slaughtering the poorest people on Earth.

You did not mention Little Bush also went to Harvard business school.  If he and Cheny are examples fo businessmen in America it is no wonder we can’t compete with the rest of the world.

Just wanted to resond to Dan ...the fine dining waiter.
Dan, this war in Iraq is not about islamo facists, it is about oil!!! I challenge you to go to websites and read about peak oil, you will see just how important Iraqi oil is and how easily extractable it is and how over the next 20 -30 years the importance of controlling the oil will be. This war is also about corporate contracts, KBR, Bechtel etc. Bush does not decide anything, this administration was put into power to carry out an agenda of monopolizing the oil resources of Iraq, buliding bases to project american power and corporate contracts. We will never leave Iraq, we will after the oil deals are done, bases secure start to draw down troops....but we will always be there. This is so NOT about islamofacisim..

Dear Mr. Scheer:
You decidedly give too much credit to Bush for supposedly wrestling with this “mistake” in Iraq. “What me worry?” is his motto. He’s a figurehead anyway; I don’t even believe that he can read (except for maybe children’s books about goats), let alone recall anything he may have noticed at Andover or Yale. Probably has a lot of brain damage from the drugs, too.

In fact, the war is going swimmingly for Bush and his cronies. It is a perfect storm: 1) The war makes money for the Bush Crime Family and its subsidiaries (who sell weapons, ammunitions, heroin [don’t forget the CIA], build bases, bridges, roads, etc.); 2) It prevents Iraq from selling oil in exchange for Euros instead of dollars; 3) It is politically useful at home to have an “enemy” abroad scary enough to take away all our rights; 4) It successfully changed the topic from 9/11, which started this whole mess and which begs for a genuine investigation.

IT ALL STARTS WITH 9/11.

How many times have we prodded you to examine 9/11, Mr. Scheer? Why won’t you dig for this truth?

Tell me: since 1913, when has a war started in this country that was NOT jump-started with a false-flag operation?

(What happened in 1913? The Federal Reserve was set up. The FR prints money from paper and ink, charges We the People for the face value of the money plus interest at a rate the FR sets. E.g., they print a million dollars cash, which costs them about $230 to do; they give it to the US Gov’t, which then owes the FR one million plus interest. The Federal Reserve is not “federal”; it’s a private corporation who arm-twisted the then-gov’t of the US to legally enable them to do so. They are a “central bank,” which has as its main motivation, the charging of interest and the piling up of more debt. What piles up debt the fastest? WAR. THat is the point of war. To feed this creature from Jekyll Island (see book by same title by Griffin). Who pays the interest on the debt? We the people, in the form of our income tax. That’s all that income tax goes for. Other taxes, property, gas, etc., pay for everything else. End of lesson.)

Why don’t you investigate Halliburton? They, under Cheney starting in ‘95, sold nuclear equipment to Iran. That’d be a dig to read about. Are you waiting until we’ve nuked a few million Iranians?

(I say ‘we’ because all this killing is done in the name of all of us Americans; and it is we who will have to explain to our grandchildren, if we have any and they survive, what we were doing or not doing, during the ‘Bush regime’ which will have the same ring to it as ‘Nazi Regime’ now does.)

Why don’t you investigate the Council on Foreign Relations? How about the Federal Reserve?

We’re depending on you, Mr. Scheer. Dig deeper. Follow the money trail.

Bush is obviously nothing but a lying spoiled rotten silver spoon cocaine alcoholic abuser for 30 yrs who has been inside Daddy and Mr Mommys bubble until he was selected president thanks to all the oil loot millions and friends in high/low places especially James Baker who rigged the whole 2000 election for the little chimp who did nothing to stop 911 except zig zag and hide the same way he dodged Nam then went AWOL only to have his records fixed.

Bush is the exact opposite of what America was meant to be and stood for the past 230 yrs living his pampered spoiled rotten lifestyle of luxury and privlege as a smirking fratrat cheerleader as opposed to Bill Clinton who was considered a peasant commoner proletariet by elisit Daddy who never got over the 1992 defeat and set out to rig his idiot chimp into office for reasons of revenge.

If you think Daddy didnt know his smirking chimp would screw up America and the planet the way he screwed up everything else beforehand you are badly mistaken. The Bush Crime Family laughs all the way to the bank these days and will do everything to make sure chimp is not impeached so lose than 400,000 a yr for the rest of his life all the millions in kickbacks off Iraq.

America will be paying for this rich brats screwups for decades or longer along with repairing its reputation. Lets hope and pray Daddy or Mr Mommy come down with Parkinsons or Alzheimers to erase the fake bogus reasons for his denying federal funds for research using bogus excuses about his bogus religion to try to appear to hold convictions.

Bush is a fake and puppet. He is the biggest scoundrel ever but where else do scoudrels seek their last refuge but in religion and then on to politics with Daddys millions much of what he made with the bin Ladens.

Finally we need a US Amendment to the Constitution to outlaw any future kid offspring from becoming president to avoid what has become the worse case of all scenarios since we know there are plenty more Bushes awaiting their shot at being selected by the very state and federal Supreme Court Justices Bush is currently appointing to continue to hog the dynasty.

America never needs another Bush of any kind and hopefully the chimp will be impeached convicted arrested jailed and possibly executed or turned over to those millions he has had murdered.

I do not endorse or condone this war or any war, I have no convictions to democrats or republicans; (and yes I vote, but for whomever I feel will do the best job)I recognize a huge difference in american culture and most importantly, american values between the vietnam era and now.  I like comment #36011; there’s a real big dig topic. Do a little research on the Bilderberg group and the Tri-Lateral group (a group the Bush’s reputedly have been long-time members of), both easily queried on the web....it’s enough to scare you; it terrifies me. Truth?

It’s not the total stupidity of the Bush crowd that bothers me. It’s their total lack of any moral values.

In response to Comment #36024 by Shane on 11/01 at 4:13 pm.

Plenty of people died before we got out of Vietnam and plenty died after we got out.  Seems to me that a whole lot of the dead got killed fighting for our puppet governments who were pretty good at torturing & murdering themselves. Once we were gone, at least someone else was doing the killing. 

Had we never joined the fight, we could have lived with a communist Ho easier than with Communist China.  In fact, we should have sided with him in his fight against the Chinese.  We probably wouldn’t have been asked for troops since THE NORTH VIETNAMESE LOVED HO & WERE WILLING FIGHT THEIR WARS THEMSELVES. 

We didn’t start the mess in Vietnam so after we got out, we didn’t suffer as much blame as we will for Iraq.  That’s the biggest difference between the two fiascos.

If you want to know which side is right in a conflict, find out which side is being supported by the people in the middle of it.  But, that’s kind of like democracy, isn’t it?

The real problem with the situation in Iraq is that no one stood up in the begining and said “this is bogus.” Our political leaders, military leaders, journalists, and the working man all “went along” with Georgie, afraid that dissenting would affect their “patriotisim” standing. 
At least during Vietnam, some people stood up and were counted.  The American people were caught napping on Iraq, and our political leaders took advantage, much to the chagrin of the brave young troops that have made the ultimate sacrifice.
Shame on our own house.  The only redeeming factor is that hopefully we have learned our lesson, and the basis of our constitution.  Government is not to be trusted, and we must always be on guard.

Ritzl says, in Comment #36014:

“...I AM one of those that agonize over the fact that we SHOULD minimize the consequences (re: death) in those countries that we arbitrarily invade.  But maybe we should just get out and leave it to the Iraqis ...”

Yes, Ritzl; it’s hard to leave Iraq, because it just doesn’t seem responsible for us to abandon the mess we made.

But the way we honor our responsibility is not by staying in Iraq. The way we get out of Iraq responsibly is:

(1) by apologizing as a nation to Iraq and agreeing to pay reparations,

(2) by removing and prosecuting the leaders who lied us into the war,

(3) by investigating and exposing the harmful influence of oil executives, military industrialists, and the right-wing Israel lobby on our foreign policy, and

(4) by putting an absolute stop right now to the current neocon campaign to start a new “preventive war” against Iran.

So then, how many buildings in New York did the Vietcong destroy? The parallels between Vietnam and Iraq break down at numerous important points. In insisting on them for operative reasons, we will be fighting the wrong war all over again. And no one wants that. We should be focusing on the nature of the enemy. And we have no done that. The American press has been especially laggard in that respect.

a terrific piece! a vietnam veteran

You know Bush has hit rock bottom when he guests on Boil-on-the-ass’s show.

The lesson the elite learned from Vietnam was there’s such a thing as too much free press, free speech, and democracy.

Because the people back home could see war for the first time in close to real time, the objected to the process of “pacification” we had practiced on the Philippines 60 odd years before Vietnam and Native Americans for a couple of centuries before that.  All that needed to be done was keep killing people until their will to fight was broken or the number of those willing to fight was so small they could no longer mount militarily significant attacks.  Sounds simple, but looks very, very ugly.

The primary difference with Iraq is that the happy talk about the war is wearing thin faster and even though no one in power talks about it openly, the publicly intuitively knows we went in their for the oil, and the oil companies don’t seem to be thanking us for the present at the pumps.

What I wonder is how long it will be until the happy talk about here at home wears off, how long until people realize that our democracy is ony marginally more real than what Bush allows the Iraqis.  When the Iraqi parliament picked their first prime minister and Bush vetoed him, I thought that proved what a sham their democracy was.  Then I thought about how the situation with Joe Lieberman was not that different.  The people in his own party voted him OUT.  But the elite want him, give the wink and the nod, and congressional leaders make it known he won’t be punished for thwarting the will of the voters.  Essentially, like Iraqis, people get to vote--and keep voting until they get the “right” answer, the one that business interests want.

Ironically, the righties get played on this too.  The rank and file are encouraged to piss and moan about illegal immigrants, but the only thing that will determine the number that get in is how many the owners of the factories and fields want in.

RE: • Comment #36024 by Shane  on  11/01  at  4:13 pm “...Hundreds of thousands of people were executed. Communism did move forward.”

>>>>>>>>>>>

In response: Actually the only advance was in Cambodia, the trigger for which was the Nixon/Kissenger bombings. And ultimately, Vietnam put and end to the Kamer Rouge bloodbath, while the US, under the spell of Kissinger’s “realpolitik"(?!?) backed the enemy of it’s enemy, Pol Pot.

If only Presedent Harry Trueman had responded positively to the US’ WWII ally, Nationalist Ho, when he asked not to permit the French to return....but, no. The colonists who abandoned their concerns in the face of Imperialist Japan were even ferried back by the US Navy.

The myth of Monolithic Communism is only now being eclipsed by the myth of Islamo-Fascism, and to the boob-tubed American consumer, it’s like schilling ice cream at the beach.

turning the corner? We turned the corner a ways back pal. We’re fucked!

Post #36024 by Shane writes “The Communists enslaved a population and Robert Scheer cheered and applauded them.”

Where did you get this Sheer cheered and applauded enslavement? I don’t see it anywhere.
Second, if there was an enslavement, it is far better than the massacre of 3,400,000 indochinese by few bloodthirst warmongers. Third, I for one would certainly cheer and applaud if Bush sends his two able twins to Iraq’s frontline.

I would like to interject a point that has perhaps
been overlooked by the “stay the course” crowd.
(It might also have been conveniently ignored.)
The Bush administration has a mistaken belief
(I’m giving benefit of the doubt here using belief)
that the Iraqis will step forward and govern this
infant democracy. I say there is no one left to do so.
Those Iraqis that had secular leanings and educations
are dead or have escaped to parts unknown in fear for
their lives.

These progressives were few and far between.
Despite the killing and crimes of Saddam,
most Iraqis still want a dictator and don’t want
to be freed from their religious bonds.

Teachers, professors, cops, utility workers,
and goverment officials on all levels are eliminated
daily. We don’t know how many more are intimidated
each time this happens. One thing is for sure,
the bravest and perhaps the most qualified are
no longer available. Who will step forward?
Only the unemployed, ill equipped or the corrupt.

I could imagine an Iraqi version of Bob Newhart saying:
“Honey, I’m going down to unemployment, they said
there’s an opening. Well it’s more of a bomb crater
than an opening. But they say I can be mayor!
The pay’s not great but there’s job security.
Yep, I can be mayor for life!”

I think the oil rich neighbors of Iraq should
be given a chance to show their concern for this
Islamic nation. Let them sort it out, they will
continue to sell us oil. Let a little “you know”
hit their collective fans.

Common sense dictates that staying will not improve
the situation. Common sense was never deployed.

It is shallow thinkings of so called American scholars to comapare Vietnam with Iraq. The Vietnam war was a product of a bi-partisan policy to contain China. South Vietnam was dubbed into believing itself a Forward Base to defend Freedom etc...and etc… President Diem was smart enough to realize this fact but was not strong enought to prevent the aftermath as he was overthrown and killed by the Americans and their South Vietnamese Generals. Oh God will one day forgive the American who conveniently and cowardly abandoned their South Vietnamese ally after Nixon-Kissinger suucessfully engaged the Chinese. History was made, and now the USA is firmly becoming a Chinese client --- having to buy everything from China and owing the Chinese to the tune of trillion dollars. The victorious Communist North is loving every bit of the US Imperislist US that they marched million of their young men and women to be carpeted-bombed and killed during the war, and now shamelessly want to be the loyal servant contractor of the American.

The big different between the Vietnam war and the cuurent Iraq QUAGMIRE is the illigitimacy of the current war. The US President has invaded a country, causing untold damages in terms of human lives, wealth, and tragedies under false pretense.
This is war criminal and justice will be served. Without justice and reparation, the world will never accept the US once again for what it was.

james r reid III on 11/01 at 9:01 am

One point Mr Scheer does not seem to understand.  COmmunism is a form of government.  It cannot be compared to muslims belief in overtaking the west through their faith.  Their religion goes beyond anything including government views.  They have lived by the sword and they are prepared and willing to die by the sword in order to go to the next level of what they call paradise.  Bush is right about the threat from muslims worldwide.

&&&&&&&&&&&& ;&&&&&&&&&&&&am p;&&&&&&&&&&&&a mp;&&&&&&&&&&&& amp;&&

Bush is right about the threat from Islamo/fascists but unfortunately he and his fellow Christo/fascists misled by the Judeo/Neocon fascists haven’t a clue as how to solve the problem as these chicken shit macho guys aren’t willing to die for their cause as are the Islamo/fascists
In fact taking out Saddam only did for the Islamo/fascists what they were incapable themselves as Saddam was not one of them.
Bush has also made us the laughing stock of the world by pretending to bring democracy to another area while destroying it home.

Robert Scheer and the rest of the anti-American crowd were dead wrong on Vietnam. The “Dire Predictions” came true. Hundreds of thousands of people were executed. Communism did move forward. Scheer and his useful idiots didn’t even acknowledge what happened in European countries like Yugoslavia. For Robert Scheer to now say the dire predictions did not come true is an either a total amnesia of Vietnam and the boat people or a person who has no problem with mass executions and murder if they are done in the name of “socialism”. How could anyone be the disingenious concerning the fate of Vietnam? The Communists enslaved a population and Robert Scheer cheered and applauded them. How wrong can you be?

I just watched McGovern on C-SPAN saying that there was a bloodbath in Viet Nam when we got out, but a couple of generations later, everyone (including the Vietnamese) agrees that they’re better off now for us leaving when we did, finally.

I hadn’t thought about it those terms before, and I AM one of those that agonize over the fact that we SHOULD minimize the consequences (re: death) in those countries that we arbitrarily invade.  But maybe we should just get out and leave it to the Iraqis to come to grips (again) with what it means to be Saddam-free.

There. I said it.

Doing so would enable our body politic to absorb the lessons learned and make sure we don’t do this again for a long time (i.e. Iran).

A Response to :Comment #35973 by K Coleman

Neither one of your concerns will be ever solved by violence and war.

Violence begets violence. Yes, one can always make a bigger gun and there always will be a tiny little gun is going to take it down.

Just unfortunate that we have the so called leaders without any grasp of history and we find a way to get rid of those for stupid reasons.

There was a big reason, even though the build-up to the major “police action” in Vietnam had begun in earnest, after on a couple of thousand “advisors” had been sent when Eisenhower, an