Hey Jewish Bostonian,

Your comment to this post gravely incorrect.

Armenians were defending themselves against thousands of Turks as well as Kurds at the time of the Armenian genocide.

Armenians in fact fought along side Turks in many instancses better then Turks as they ran away crying like school yard girls while the Armenian fighters did the heavy lifting.

Armenians who fought in the Turkish army were rewarded for valor and bravery.

Turks in organizing the genocide, disarmed Armenians, forced them into labor, then killed them off.

Make no mistake as denialists have mentioned Armenians were defending there villages from Turkish mass killings now overwhelmingly excepted in the international community as a genocide, anything less then this excepted fact is denial. 

Germans who were allies with the Turks at the time were repulsed by the inhumane killinng of innocent Armenian citizens, this is also well documented.

No, its not ironic, because the Armenian situation is greatly different than from what the Jewish people suffered.  Jews did not raise a military force of 150,000+ men, fight against Germany in enemy armies, or slaughter hundreds of thousands of Germans!!  In fact, parallels made between the Armenian case and the Holocaust is completely insulting to Jews and degrades the meaning of genocide.  Everyone knows that the Armenians backstabbed the Turks during the Great War.

Hipocrisy.........don’t even try to turn the table around here!  It is the state of Israel that has always denied, and to this day, continues to deny the Armenian Genocide.  Isn’t that ironic????

Yalancılar, sahtekarlar! Anadolu’da katliam yapan; bebek, çocuk, sakat, yaşlı demeden öldüren Ermenilerdir! Osmanlı Döneminde Türklerden daha çok itibar gören Ermeniler yedikleri ekmeği teperek Türk Milletini arkadan vurmuştur. Şimdi 1915 aldatmacasıyla tüm dünyayı kandırmaya çalışan Ermeniler daha kurdukları ASALA adlı terörist örgütün katlettikleri Türklerin kanı kurumadan utanmazca Türklere iftira atmaktadırlar.
Ayyıldızlı Bayrağımızı yakan alçakları lanetliyorum!

Speak English this is America (internet included).

zaten butun ulkelerın bızm ulkede gozu var yardım mardım yalan bızı bır kasık suda bogmaya calısan hayvanlar bunlarr ama elde etmek ıstedıklerını hıc bır zaman elde edemezler bizim vatanımız bölünmez.öle tas arkasındanj bayrak yakmalarla olmaz bu sıkıosa gelsınler onumuzde yaksınlarda gorelım

Onur,

Trust me military might is not right. The Turks can hardly govern themselves. They will likely start canabalizing among themselves.

The International community has rejected Turkey’s agressive, buligerant, and unjustified foreign and domestic policies for decades.

Bravado talk, is just that, talk.

Guess what will happen to you if your turn your neck to look 360 degrees, thats right you’ll break your neck. Look forward with open eyes, I dont wear your blurred glasses. I see just fine.

Armenians were better soldiers in the Turkish Army, they ran like school yard girls when ethnic Armenian citizens serving in the Turkish army did the heavy lifting. We did carry the flag for them, so what we are talking about reality now, not dusty history books.

Hey Rich,

I did read all your comments with the others and I could say you have a problem dude !
Why don’t you understand about what they try to tell you ?
Do you know what we say in My Country;for that kind of person ???
‘’Wear a horse glasses’’ Maybe, you will not ganna get that either.
The meaning is : Both your eye sides are closed and you see only 15 degree in your life.Take this shity thing off...why dont you try to see 360 degree.
Could you try it ?  Is it too much for you ?
Also, you don’t get my message what I’m saying…
Even enemys flag are respectful for TURKS,we did care their flag in the past( You can get it all kind of information about it, if you read but, not with your glasses,as I told you, take it off)
Try dude try, you can do it.

Im a 100% with crusader. We must unite brothers
and take our chrisian lands back from the barbaric
savage’s. We Greeks, Russians,Armenians, Serbs, Bulgarians, as brothers must unite and take our
lands back

Hey Crusader,

I’m Armenian Christian and don’t believe in any crusade unification of the Nations you describe. that is an out of date stradegy that will simply not work.

The Turkey will (if anything) implode as did the former Soviet Union.

The Christian East will not rest, until the lands that were taken by the barbaric scoundrals are given back. The day will come when the Russians, Greeks, Serbians, and Armenians unite as the Great Crusaders, and wage war upon your pathetic nation heresy

I don’t think the same individuals who burned the Turkish flag are reading this comment post, so why pose the question?

I don’t see why most Turks have pride in showing the Turkish flag in public anyway.

I just want to say the armanian guys who burned the Turkish Flag…
Guys or Gays !
It’s soo easy to burned the Turkish flag out off the Turkey.
Do you wanna try to burn that, some where in Turkey ?
Do You ???
I Don’t Think soo…

to more clearly state I meant Ottoman government, or Ottoman Athority

The word Ottoman refers to the Ottoman authority at the time, the government.

Greeks, Armenians, other ethnicities were hardly in positions of authority to make decisions of mass killings, the Ottoman Turks were and did. 

Keep your so-called facts, they are denialist views anyway, most all scholars agree that it was genocide, why should I have to make you believe somthing you deny.

Go work on convincing the rest of civilized society what you believe, good luck!

Rich, the word “Ottoman” includs all ethnic groups, Turks, Kurds, Armenians, Greeks, etc...Thus, when Turkish sources refer to “civil war” they refer to conflicts between Ottoman Turks and Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Greeks, etc.  Perhaps since you as an Armenian see yourself as being different from Ottomans, you are misinterpreting use of this term.  Turks did not fight Turks.  Turks were not massacred by Turks.  The eastern war is known to have been fought against Armenians and Russians.  There is ample evidence showing that the mass graves contain Turkish victims, and that these massacres were perpetrated by Armenians. 

You are in complete denial of the fact that Armenians committed atrocities against Turks.  The issue is not just what happened to Armenians; events are not isolated, they effect each other.  How can you discuss whether something was or wasn’t a genocide if you don’t consider ALL THE FACTS?

Oh, sorry, I forgot that for you discussion is equivalent to denial....you don’t want to examine facts, you just want to make everything fit your predetermined conclusion, so you ignore or fabricate as needed.

Ok, you do want you want, but I’m not going to waste my time with you anymore.  Have a great day.

Emerhan wrote:

“Now this is the most ridiculous statement you’ve ever written, and shows how completely blind you are not only to truth, but to logic.  Mass graves have been found in Turkish villages, sometimes hundreds of bodies stuffed in a well.  This fact that these are Turkish victims is corroborated with eyewitness accounts, as well as archival accounts.  Even American diplomats such as Bristol have written about Armenian atrocities, and the French knew of the massacres done by Armenians in Southern Turkey (ref. Robert Zeidner, Stanford Shaw).”

Turks themselves say that they were involved in a civil war. If you dont believe your own ancectoral history that is something you must overcome, or stay in denial.

reciting positions from denialist perspectives are just that- denialist perspectives.

American diplomats, French, German and many other third party witnesses cited many instances of mass killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks. Now I would expect a denialist perspective such as yours to be selective and discredit history and archival evidence, this is to be expected and nothing new.

Emerhan wrote:

“Now this is the most ridiculous statement you’ve ever written, and shows how completely blind you are not only to truth, but to logic.  Mass graves have been found in Turkish villages, sometimes hundreds of bodies stuffed in a well.”

I would not expect a denialist perspective to be able to grasp what is truth and logic on this issue. It would defy truth and the Turkish government’s lack of logic in a humanitarian sense to uncover mass graves that were anyone other then of Turkish ethnicity. I dought they are willing to contradict themselves of their current policy of denial and revision of history the Armenian genocide.

The issue here Armenian genocide, a systematic killing by your ethnic ancestors.

Rich wrote:"Also you are making assumptions that historical documnents are forgeries.”

Um, no...I am not making assumptions.  There are historians who have shown that the documents are not consistant with Ottoman Turkish.  For example, Muslims never refer to themselves as “Islamlar”; they call themselves “Muslim” or “Mumin”. Christians used to call Muslims “Islamlar”, so the text is more in line with a Christian writing it.  Their work details more anomilies indicating its false nature.  You should read up on Guenter Lewy and Surreya Yuca.
Recently Edward Erikson has also published an article criticising some of Dadrian’s work, stating that Dadrian has jumped to his conclusions with out using all sources, and analyzed documents disproving some of Dadrian’s claims.

Rich wrote:"Also the point that you state of the Turks being killed was at the hands of Turks themselves, durring the civil war.”

Now this is the most ridiculous statement you’ve ever written, and shows how completely blind you are not only to truth, but to logic.  Mass graves have been found in Turkish villages, sometimes hundreds of bodies stuffed in a well.  This fact that these are Turkish victims is corroborated with eyewitness accounts, as well as archival accounts.  Even American diplomats such as Bristol have written about Armenian atrocities, and the French knew of the massacres done by Armenians in Southern Turkey (ref. Robert Zeidner, Stanford Shaw). 

Turks weren’t fighting a civil war amongst ourselves, we were fighting for liberation against invading Armenian, Greek, British, French and Russian armies.  The primary perpetrators of masssacres, however, were Armenians and Greeks.

Stop denying Armenian atrocities…

The point that you are missing is that the Turkish government’s current policies of Armenian genocide denial and it’s promotion of its current nationalistic ferver generate it’s current violent acts against it’s minority populations.

Also you are making assumptions that historical documnents are forgeries.

Also the point that you state of the Turks being killed was at the hands of Turks themselves, durring the civil war. Under the excuse of civil war the Turkish government and there agents refute the killing of Armenians for the same excuse, but contrary to this propoganda excuse the killing of Armenians were planned and systematic from the Ottoman authority.

I believe in previous posts several Turks, including myself, have already made it clear that we do not condone any kind of violence or verbal attacks in regards to this issue.

It is unfortunate that people like Ogun Samast resort to violence and murder, rather than voicing protests in civilized matters.

The Turkish government is not responsible for such extreme actions; nor is the Armenian community free from such extremists themselves.

Operation Nemesis was an Armenian terrorist network which murdered former Turkish officials who they blamed for the relocations during the 1920s - they killed as they pleased, regardless of the fact that many assassinated were found innocent of any wrong doings.

In the 1970s, Armenian terrorist organizations like ASALA and JCAG again murdered Turkish diplomats across the global, planning hundreds of bombing and terrorist plots, such as the Orly bombing in France, which claimed many innocent French and Turkish cilivian lives.  Their campaign included the bombing of the home of American professor Stanford Shaw, simply because he wrote that Armenian allegations of genocide were untrue.

As a result, they (unforuntately sucessfully) created a climate of fear in the Turkish community for speaking out against their wrong accusations.

Today, Turks are still victims of hate crimes in this regard.  For example, I know a Turk in Nevada whose car tires were slashed because he spoke against Armenian lobbying.

I am sure there are many reasonable Armenians who do not condone such actions, just as reasonable Turks do not condone the murder of Hrant Dink.  Again, we need to look at the facts.

That over 100,000 Turks were massacred by Armenians BEFORE ANY SINGLE ARMENIAN WAS RELOCATED is a documented fact.  At the end of the day, over 500,000 Turks would loose their lives to Armenian violence.  On all fronts, including disease and famine, over 2.5 million Turks died.  It is also a fact that a disputed number of Armenians also died due to massacre, disease, and famine.  There is no evidence to indicate a government policy for genocide; a relocation was ordered, not an extermination.

These are the facts of the case.  The main problem with the Armenian thesis is that they rely on forged documents and completely ignore Turkish victims.  The violence was not one-sided.  In fact, there are even statements of Armenian Revolutionaries from the time which are testament of their intent to provoke inter-communal strife and reprisals so that the Allies would intervene on their behalf.  The Dashnak party too has culpability for the calamity that befell the Armenians.  Rather than using today’s Turkish community as a scapegoat, Armenians would do well to weed out the criminals in their own community.

Unfortunately, the fact that the LA Armenian community raised over 400,000 to try to free convicted terrorist Hampig Sassounian does not bode well for the prospects of reconciliation.

Yea, the Turks that killed the missionary’s in Turkey were peace loving nationalists, along with the one who shot the Pope, and those who instigated and followed through with the killing of Hrant Dink.
Turkey’s policies perpetuate hate which leads to these senseless killings.

I find much hate in these words:
“france and armenia go to hell motherfucker i f*** your head - germany is the best f*** of the rest - f*** europe f*** america - germanyyyyy 4 life - DONT BELIEVE ARMENIAN LIES - SHUT UP FRANCE”.

Natalie is not right for her statements afterall many Turks do acknowledge the Armenian genocide and a number of Turks did save Armenians durring the mass killings of the Ottoman era.

Sadly we do have denialists still lingering in ignorance, it is not intirely there fault, if Turkey would change it’s denialist policies these nationalists would have no where to turn to but the truth.

Until then I will expect agents of denial to desicrate humanity, out of pure ignorance.

There are people who make inappropriate comments on both sides.  Here’s a sampling from an educated Armenian fanatic, who has at least avoided using expletives while issuing her death threats:

“I am an Armenian born in America. My parents were raised in America. I am proud to say that I am happy that we dont convert to “AMERICANS” we preserve our culture and RELIGION. Why should I? Afterall after I receive my degree I’m going to live in Armenia. I am very offended by your remarks. You made one good move, didn’t expose your identity, because I guarantee you, you would have been tortured and killed. I hate turks, I will always hate turks, I will teach my children to teach their children to hate turks. I will get along with those that hate turks...I encourage all ARMENIANS to hate turks because they are worthless people that are just a waste of space on the world.” - NATALIE

I do not know any Turks who try to raise their children with hate against Armenians, however, this example Natalie provides is not so uncommon in the Armenian American community.  Just the other day a Turkish-Armenian joint concert at an American university had to be CANCELLED due to THREATS made against the musicians by fanatical ARMENIANS...There are those who don’t want reconcilliation, and it is the job of moderates (regardless of their opinions) to make sure debates do not turn into more inter-ethnic hatred.

The previous post was a perfect example a finatic similar to the stripe that oppresses humanity, but more-so ignorant of history, ignorant of the truth, ignorant of what is properly called the Armenian genocide.

france and armenia go to hell motherfucker i f*** your head - germany is the best f*** of the rest - f*** europe f*** america - germanyyyyy 4 life - DONT BELIEVE ARMENIAN LIES - SHUT UP FRANCE

3.  As far as you calling me an extremist for questioning the timing of the murder.  What is so extremist about that?  Hrant Dink has been voicing his opinions for YEARS.  His article about “poisonous blood” came out a long time ago.  There is nothing new about that.  Ogun Samast is just a high school kid who didn’t even do well in his classes.  Do you really believe that a young boy, who hadn’t even been to Istanbul before, did this horrible crime by himself.  Or what about that Yasin guy...do you think he is alone in directing Samast?  I don’t.

I believe there are more sinister forces behind this murder - don’t be naive.  Yes, individuals can hate, and there may very well be many people who hate Hrant Dink.  But there is more than hate behind this crime.  Other journalists that were murdered in Turkey were killed for more than just “hate.” For example, Ugur Mumcu was killed for investigating the “derin devlet” - people in the government who abused their positions for their own ideological or monetary purposes.

You have to ask yourself, why would anyone kill a man like Hrant Dink, who despite believe that the events were genocide, was a MODERATE.  He opposed the Armenian diaspora’s emphasis on trying to force legislative “recognition.” He opposed the French bill limiting free speech and punishing those who oppose the genocide allegations.  His paper was one the first (if I am not mistaken) Armenian paper to be published in Turkish, because he valued dialogue. 

I mean, if hate is the only motivation here, there are many more extreme-minded Armenians in Turkey...why kill a moderate? 

To draw attention to Armenian issues, create chaos for Turkey?  Pressure repealing of 301?

Whoever murdered Hrant Dink for sure doesn’t care about Turkey or have the Turkish people’s best interests in mind…

Wow, Rich, you seem to have gone totally nuts in your last comments, calling me ultranationalist every other sentence as thought that (wrong) label makes what you say correct.  Without stooping to your low level of name-calling, let me address some of the main issues here.

1.  You wrote:  “ I suggest you diversify your sources of information from the ultranationist views..”

Turkish newspapers such as Radikal and Hurriyet, which I follow, hardly qualify as “ultranationalist.” In fact, Radikal is a leftist paper...so I would refrain from labelling without knowing what you are talking about.

2. In regards to Dink’s requesting but not receiving protection.  I see your newspaper source says otherwise.  Here are what some other newspaper sources say:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,210 95981-2703,00.html
Mr Guler rejected accusations that the Government did not do enough to protect Dink, saying the journalist had not asked for help. “Because he didn’t request protection, he didn’t get close protection,” Mr Guler said. “Only general security precautions were taken.”

http://www.indymedia.org/es/2007/01/878740.shtml
The New Anatolian
Hrant Dink’s lawyer Fethiye Cetin: He got threats; he was painted as an enemy of Turks because of the case against him. He didn’t feel safe. Now what we feared has happened. This serves nobody. He didn’t ask for personal bodyguards, although he submitted the very last threatening letter to the public prosecutor’s office.

http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=8281& ;theme=1&size=A
In a television interview broadcast shortly after the shooting, his friend and fellow journalist, Aydin Engin, who had been sentenced together with Dink on the basis of the same article 301 of the Turkish penal code, recalled how just yesterday the two had spoken on the telephone about their six-month sentence, which had simply been postponed indefinitely, but had not been definitively suspended.  And how Hrant said that he was not afraid and was ready for anything.  Aydin had urged him many times to accept the bodyguard that police had promised him after the latest threats made against him, but Hrant once again refused saying that he did not want to be defended in his freedom and that he did not fear the dangers he faced.

So before you go around calling me an “ultranationalist” using “ultranationalist” sources, and implying that everything I say is unreliable, perhaps you should have at least had the decency to ask for my sources…

Rich wrote: “Kader make no mistake on this this stemed from Dink’s opposition to Turkey’s denialist policy of the Armenian genocide. This comes from news paper publications I have read from Turkish writers as well.”

I don’t agree. I am reading about this for many days and I have been reading about this before his murder as well. Of course his views on genocide had an effect but the main trigger was the “poisonous blood” statement that some idiots took the wrong way…

I was also hopeful to read many people standing side by side and denounce this murder. They shouted “we are all Hrant, we are all Aremanians” in front of Agos.

Emerhan wrote:

“For your information, Hrant Dink was offered protection by the government on numerous occasions because of concerns over the hate mail he received, but Dink refused such protection everytime.”

For a change, get your facts straight. If you can’t get this recent tragedy right how can you justify your denialist postiions of the Armenian genocide? 

“In his final column, Dink wrote about the increasing amount of hate mail he was getting, including one letter that scared him enough that he went to the local prosecutor to ask for protection, although without any luck.”

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0122/p06s01-woeu.html

Emerhan wrote:

“I find it interesting that he is killed now, just when this issue is getting hot in the US Congress.  Such political assassinations are not coincidental, and is the work of darker forces, who actually have something to gain from using his death to pressure Turkey.”

Read this before you jump to your non-sense ultranationalist views. I suggest you diversify your sources of information from the ultranationist views that do not help anyone paticularly the Turkish people.

Refering to the killing of Hrant Dink, Yasin Hayal stated “...I planned the murder four months ago.”

Four months ago was BEFORE the U.S. mid-term elections, And you find it “interesting” now that the issue is getting hot in Congress.

The murder of Hrant Dink AND U.S. congressional politics has a “0” connection, is far fetched speculation with absolutly no credibility.

I suggest read something thats aligned with mainstream think rather then seemingly ultra-nationalist fringe ideology.

Turkey would be better off working on keeping it’s people from ignorance on the subject of the Armenian genoicde to have less people of hate like Ogun Samast, and his elik.

Read Ogun Samast statements regarding Hrant Dink’s killing.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/5817465.asp?gid=74

I was hopeful to read many thousands of Turks stood “shoulder to shoulder to denounce fascism” to denounce Dink’s slaying.

Kader make no mistake on this this stemed from Dink’s opposition to Turkey’s denialist policy of the Armenian genocide. This comes from news paper publications I have read from Turkish writers as well.

Even argueing that he did or did not request police protection as a result of his academic position speeks volumes of the atmosphere of hate generated by the Turkish government that is prevelent in Turkey.

Emerhan your logic is demented to think why didn’t Hrant Dink get killed sooner if Turkey promotes hate.

Many people hate things, people, opposition to idiology etc… the next step for a fringe nationalis group is to kill.

Emerhan wrote:

“My point is that he has been around saying the same things for a long time now - if there was so much “hate” then he would have been killed long ago.  I find it interesting that he is killed now, just when this issue is getting hot in the US Congress.  Such political assassinations are not coincidental, and is the work of darker forces, who actually have something to gain from using his death to pressure Turkey.”

Emerhan you are an extremist to think something like this. This statement speaks volumes to your moronic sense of logic, lack of candor, and common sense.

You seem to be numb to humanity, including your own people, who feel much differently.

Rich wrote:  “The Turkish government has brought on the atmosphere of hate.”

Nice to see you’re continuing your trend of blaming the Turkish government everytime something bad happens.  For your information, Hrant Dink was offered protection by the government on numerous occasions because of concerns over the hate mail he received, but Dink refused such protection everytime.

The government is not responsible for his death, nor did the government do anything to generate an “atmosphere of hate.” But Armenian diaspora with their continual false accusations, combined with backlash over the French law, and the fact that the EU has used this issue to block Turkey’s membership has fuelled interest on this subject, as well as nationalist sentiments.

Hrant Dink has been talking and speaking his views for a long, long time now.  He may have believed that the events were genocide (which is his right, of course), but the fact remains that he sought dialogue as a solution, not using political resolutions to perpetuate the conflict.  He was against the French law for example.

My point is that he has been around saying the same things for a long time now - if there was so much “hate” then he would have been killed long ago.  I find it interesting that he is killed now, just when this issue is getting hot in the US Congress.  Such political assassinations are not coincidental, and is the work of darker forces, who actually have something to gain from using his death to pressure Turkey. 

Turks have nothing to gain from his murder…

Rich wrote: “He was killed because he believed in telling the truth of the Armenian genocide which spurred the onslot of daily threats to his life.”

Actually he did not talk about events of 1915 much. As I wrote in my previous post, his main thought was for the Armenians to deal with Armenia instead of the Turks. The reason he was convicted because of the Article 301 is an essay he wrote about Armenians’ preoccupation with Turks. He said the Armenians should get rid of the poison in their blood (which was the thoughts of the Turk) and instead concentrate in the well-being of Armenia and fill their veins with this noble blood. The stupid judges thought that he meant “Turkish blood is poison” where he was actually writing about the poisoning nature of the hatred of the Turk in the Armenian blood… He was opposed to hatred. He was a man of understanding.

Rich wrote: “This crime goes beyond the actual perpetrator(s). The Turkish government has brought on the atmosphere of hate.”

I agree. I was dismissing your comments about Article 301 by saying “nobody was jailed” but now somebody is “killed” because of the atmosphere generated by his trial. I hope Turkey will look at the Article 301 again and get rid of it.

His vision was dialog. He thought the events of 1915 were genocide but he thought the diaspora shouldn’t keep pushing on this subject as if this was the defining theme of Armenian identity. He thought there was much more to Armenian identity than this (with his words) “poison”. And he called on to the Turkish people to be conscientious about the sufferings of Armenians. He thought genocide/non-genocide debate was not useful. He liked living with Turks and as I am reading many Turkish columnists who knew him for the last couple of days, the Turks liked living with him. I have a friend who knew him and she told me that he was a very charismatic and nice person. As I said, a great loss for Turkey.

He was killed because he believed in telling the truth of the Armenian genocide which spurred the onslot of daily threats to his life.

This crime goes beyond the actual perpetrator(s). The Turkish government has brought on the atmosphere of hate.

Go see the movie “Screamers” Hrant Dink was in the movie.

God will rest his sole and give strengh to those who will move his visions forward.

I am very sorry, too. I read that there are 3 suspects in custody. I hope the police will be able to find the murderer(s). When some people (like Hrat Dink) are pushing for more and more understanding and dialog, it makes me so sad that some idiots only can think of violance. I hope this horrible event won’t stop the people who are pushing for mutual respect and dialog but become a catalyst for these initiatives. I hope we can turn this horrible event into a step for reconciliation.

If you know of any Armenian church in San Francisco area that will have a prayer service for Hrat Dink, let me know. I am sure many Turks would like to join you in remembering him.

I can’t believe it!  Someone murdered Hrant Dink!  My father-in-law in Turkey first told me the news, but I am still in shock.  Hrant Dink was one of the Turkish-Armenians who supported dialogue between the ethnic groups, his was one of the more moderate voices.  This is a great loss for all of Turkey, and an very ill omen.
Allah rahmet eylesin...(may he rest in peace).

WWH wrote:  “What you have related has convinced me more than ever that all this maneuvering was just a ruse to confuse the Europeans. Ditto the annihilation of the whole Christian population. There were two sets of policy directives, one public the other limited to the top Ittihadist leaders.”

You statement above is pure conjecture, fabrication inconsistant with the evidence.  I am sorry that you have such trouble dealing with the plain facts of this case, and are groping in the dark to find evidence to support your accusations.

Because I am not familiar with his case, I can’t say whether the Ottomans were justified in courtmartialing him or not.  Even if his court-martial were unjust, however, that is a far cry from murder, and an even farther leap to accuse the government of genocide.

WWH weote: “You have yet to state why he was being tried. It is peculiar that instead of his trial being conducted in Istanbul, he was moved around from city to city and was to be tried in Diarbekir which was under the tutelage of the madman, and Dr. Mengele clone, Dr. Mehmed Reshid.”

There has to be a reason for taking him to Diyarbakir. If you think Ottoman Empire did this to kill him there, it does not make sense. Many people were executed in Istanbul as well. If Talat wanted to kill him, he would have killed him easily in Istanbul, too. Also, I don’t understand how the fact that his murdereds were hanged had no effect on you.

WWH wrote: “What you have related has convinced me more than ever that all this maneuvering was just a ruse to confuse the Europeans. Ditto the annihilation of the whole Christian population. There were two sets of policy directives, one public the other limited to the top Ittihadist leaders.”

How come you are more convinced? I couldn’t follow your logic. Would you explain more? Europeans were already agitated by the deportations in the east. But the killing of Krikor in Istanbul would have been very important for Europeans, is this what you think? Do you think that is why he had to be taken to Diyarbakir and killed somewhere on the road? Again, I don’t understand given his murdereds are executed, how can you suggest his killing was ordered by Talat. Can you elaborate on what you meant by “There were two sets of policy directives, one public the other limited to the top Ittihadist leaders.”

By the way, I finished Lewy’s book. It was a really good one. I thought it was objective. I don’t know what you would think but I strongly suggest you read it. I will write about it more later.

Emrehan,

You have yet to state why he was being tried. It is peculiar that instead of his trial being conducted in Istanbul, he was moved around from city to city and was to be tried in Diarbekir which was under the tutelage of the madman, and Dr. Mengele clone, Dr. Mehmed Reshid.

What you have related has convinced me more than ever that all this maneuvering was just a ruse to confuse the Europeans. Ditto the annihilation of the whole Christian population. There were two sets of policy directives, one public the other limited to the top Ittihadist leaders.

Dear WWH; in regards to your note about Krikor Zohrab.

I did an little bit of searching on the internet to see what folks are saying about who he was and more importantly, how he died.  The results are very interesting.

http://www.armenianchurch.net states:  “One of the outstanding Armenian political leaders of his era, he was murdered by the Ottoman Turkish government in 1915 at the onset of the Genocide...”

A Turkish language website for a publisher that prints Zohrab’s literary works, http://www.arasyayincilik.com, states that as part of the Young Turk regimes policy of relocation, Zohrab was sent first to Konya, then Adana and Halep.  He was last heard from in a letter to his wife dated 15 July 1915, and was killed while being transfered to Diyarbakir by the gang leader Cherkez Ahmet and Nazim.”

Hmm, there is a BIG DIFFERENCE between being “murdered by the government” and killed in a rogue attack by gangs!

But let’s read yet a third opinion, this time Wikipedia:

“Ordered to appear before a court martial in Diyarbakır, together with Vartkes Hovhannes Serengülyan (below), both went to Aleppo by train, escorted by one gendarme, remained in Aleppo for a few weeks, waited the results of infructuous attempts by the Ottoman governor of the city to have them sent back to the capital (some sources mention Cemal Pasha himself intervening for their return, but Talat Pasha insisting on them to sent to the court martial), and then dispatched to Urfa and remained there for some time in the house of a Turkish deputy friend, taken under police escort and led to Diyarbakır by car -allegedly accompanied on a voluntary basis by some notable Urfa Armenians, and with many sources confirming, they were murdered by the [well-known] band of brigands led by Cherkes Ahmet, Halil and Nazım, at a locality called Karaköprü or Şeytanderesi in the outskirts of Urfa, some time between 15 July and 20 July 1915. The murderers were tried and executed in Damascus by Cemal Pasha in September 1915, and the assassinations became the subject of a 1916 investigation by the Ottoman Parliament led by Artin Boshgezenian, the deputy for Aleppo.”

So it looks like he was NOT murdered by the government; he was NOT EXECUTED, as you’ve claimed in your note.  Furthermore, the perpetrators were EXECUTED by the same Young Turk regime [whose leaders were Enver, Talat and Cemal Pasha] that ordered the relocations.  Doesn’t sound at all like genocide, huh.  The Ottoman government didn’t execute Krikor Zohrab - they executed his murders!  Em, so this is what the ArmenianChurch.Net calls genocide???

My grandfather’s friend Krikor Zohrab was removed from Istanbul and executed near Mardin. Are you claiming that this man, who is noted to have earlier saved Talaat’s life was justifably executed upon orders of the very man whose life he had saved?

Emrehan,

I read it in many places in Lewy’s book. He also gives sources for this. For example, page 176 writes this:

“..., in August the Porte decided to exampt Catholic and Protestant Armenians from the deportation decree.*”

* The orders of the minister of interior, issued on August 3 and 15, 1915, are reprinted in Orel and Yuca, ‘The Talat Pasha Telegrams,’ p. 122.

Taner Akcam’s book also has the same information in page 175-77. This decision comes after pressures from Germans and Americans. But still, Ottoman Empire did not have to listen to them if she did not want to do so.

Dear WWH:

You wrote:  “Perhaps the lure of stealing their wealth had something to do with it as the governor of the eastern vilayet imediately moved into my grandparents’ home.”

During a period of war, it is very easy for officials at all levels to abuse their power.  But surely you must recognize that there is a difference between individual misdeeds, and the Ottoman government ordering those deeds.

This is where you must separate your emotional family experiences from facts.  Yes Armenians suffered, bad things happened.  Those actions should be condemned - but that does not prove in anyway that the government ordered massacre, i.e. genocide.

To give a modern example, consider the Iraq war.  There are some in the Middle East who accuse the US of massacre and genocide.  However, I am sure that you can see that any crimes committed by soldiers, including massacre, rape, and torture, are most definitely NOT the POLICY of the US GOVERNMENT, and thus it is WRONG to accuse the US government of any complicity.

Dear Kadir;

I have never heard of a distinction being made in Ottoman policy towards Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox Armenians.  Would you please tell me your source on this point?

As far as some Armenians being exempted from the relocations; on that point you are right.  Armenians in Istanbul, Izmir and some other cities were not relocated.  In fact, there are many Armenians who fled to Istanbul to avoid the relocations.  And when the Greeks occupied Izmir in 1919, the sizeable Armenian population there welcomed the Greeks with much joy.

The relocations were NOT motivated by racism.  Prior to the relocations, Armenian militants together with Russians massacred over 100,000 Turkish civilians between 1914-1915 in Kars, Ardahan and Van.  The relocations were a reaction to the very real threat the Armenian revolutionaries posted with their assistance to the Allies.  The situation was made worse by reports of Ottoman Armenians aiding the revolutionaries and allies, using churches and homes to stockpile weapons, hold secret meetings etc.

Of course, this does not mean that every single Ottoman Armenian was a traitor.  But when you consider that even Ottoman Armenian parlementarians like Pasdermadjian joined the Dashnak party, and engaged in subversive activity, then you can image the extent of the complicity.  The United States initiated the Japanese interment after the bombing of Pearl Harbor.  The Ottomans ordered the relocations only AFTER over 100,000 Ottoman citizens had been murdered.  Now, you can criticize the decision, but the main cause behind that decision was CLEARLY NOT RACISM.

WWH,

I wrote most of the non-gregorians lived through those events in Eastern Anatolia. You still did not write the name of the vali. Non-Gregorians were excluded from relocation in August of 1915 after the relocation has already started. So, some of them may have already relocated at that time. And of course some of them were killed for money probably. I repeat, I wrote MOST, not ALL.

But your asserion about Istanbul is totally incorrect. They lived through the war without nothing happening to them except for the ones that were members of revolutionary organizations. And even those executions were not that many. Same in Izmir. It would have been the same in Urfa if they did not revolt. There were many cities spared from relocation.

Kadir wrote:

“How come the Armenians in Istanbul, Izmir, and most of the protestant and catholic Armenians in eastern Turkey lived through the events without nothing happening to them? The hostilities was againts the Gregorian Armenians who were more symphatethic to the revolutionary seperatist groups.”

LIES!LIES! BLATANT LIES!! My family was not Gregorian and they were decimated both in the Eastern vilayets and the men who were taken to be executed from Istanbul. These were not revolutionaries of any sort, but loyal merchants and their families. Perhaps the lure of stealing their wealth had something to do with it as the governor of the eastern vilayet imediately moved into my grandparents’ home.

Sounds like from Emerhan’s and Kader’s posts they agree that “Holdwater’s” purpose as written on his web site TallArmenianTale.Com is a person who holds racist views.

Even Emerhan has distenced himself from this web site but yet used similar denialist arguements.

Kader wrote:

“There was no racism in Turkey against Armenians. How come the Armenians in Istanbul, Izmir, and most of the protestant and catholic Armenians in eastern Turkey lived through the events without nothing happening to them? The hostilities was againts the Gregorian Armenians who were more symphatethic to the revolutionary seperatist groups. Also there were the muslim Balkan refugees who hated Christians because of the things they lived (and died) through. It was a complex mosaic of feelings.”

You have got to be kidding

Rich wrote:  “Nobody is changing anything, go back and look at how many times this this web site has been sourced.”

I don’t recall having every cited that website myself.  In fact, all of my posts have cited books or articles written by historians, or historical documents from the period in question.  For some reason, however, you never seem to get around to giving a real response to those very real academic sources.  My most recent post with the excerpt from Prof. Robert Zeiden is just the most recent example.

So I repeat:  The opinions of Holdwater on TallArmenianTale.Com are irrelevant, although it may be useful to independently read and research some of the historical sources he cites and form your own opinion.

So perhaps we should get back to Zeiden’s comments, which clearly show the flaws in Armenian historiography and how these issues are not a “done deal”, as you have tried to assert in previous notes.

Rich wrote: “No wonder, committing genocide against the Armenians was an act of an ultimate form of racism.”

There was no racism in Turkey against Armenians. How come the Armenians in Istanbul, Izmir, and most of the protestant and catholic Armenians in eastern Turkey lived through the events without nothing happening to them? The hostilities was againts the Gregorian Armenians who were more symphatethic to the revolutionary seperatist groups. Also there were the muslim Balkan refugees who hated Christians because of the things they lived (and died) through. It was a complex mosaic of feelings.

Just by looking at a page, how can you extract the racism 90 years ago? Bravo.

I usually rate a page according to the information in it. I don’t care about the commentary (if I don’t know who the writer is and his/her background). I find that page helpful in putting together the relevant information (you might argue it is all in the Turkish point of view but there are thousands of sites with all Armenian point of view, too). I have enough background to see which commentary is factual, which is not. I don’t think it is helpful for somebody to get all his/her information from a webpage or from similar webpages. As I said before, I like the color gray.

Rich, you have to admit that most of the Armenian pages are similar in terms of attitude.

Emerhan wrote:

“Dear Rich, is this yet another attempt by you to change the subject? 

TallArmenianTale.Com is not the subject of our discussions here.  That website gives the analysis of one guy (Holdwater) of a range of relevant sources.  It would be more fruitful to discuss the sources than to debate Holdwater’s view of the world.

So, please, let’s stick to the subject.”

Nobody is changing anything, go back and look at how many times this this web site has been sourced.

Pure racism at it’s worst. I think a clear picture is being drawn from a denialist perspective.

No wonder, committing genocide against the Armenians was an act of an ultimate form of racism.

Dear Rich, is this yet another attempt by you to change the subject? 

TallArmenianTale.Com is not the subject of our discussions here.  That website gives the analysis of one guy (Holdwater) of a range of relevant sources.  It would be more fruitful to discuss the sources than to debate Holdwater’s view of the world.

So, please, let’s stick to the subject.

continued from previous post.

THE PURPOSE OF TALL ARMENIAN TALE (TAT)

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/scholars.htm

“...Naturally, there is no end to the hearsay “evidence” of the prejudiced pro-Christian people from the period, including missionaries and Near East Relief representatives, Arnold Toynbee, Lord Bryce, Lloyd George, Woodrow Wilson, Theodore Roosevelt, and so many others. When the rare Westerner opted to look at the issues objectively, such as Admirals Mark Bristol and Colby Chester, they were quick to be branded as “Turcophiles” by the propagandists. The sad thing is, even those who don’t consider themselves as bigots are quick to accept the deceptive claims of Armenian propaganda, because deep down people feel the Turks are natural killers and during times when Turks were victims, they do not rate as equal and deserving human beings. This is the main reason why the myth of this genocide has become the common wisdom.”

This web site speaks volumes of its lack of objectivity, and caters to the ethnocentric nationalist stripe prevelent among poeple who like to attack advocacy of the Armenain genocide.

I wouldn’t mind the attempt at denying the Armenian genocide, but doing so with racial hatred and denial is very sad.

The readers who do not see the unobjectivity of this web site, need to take a racial tolerance class.

This is blatently a racist web site.

Emerhan/Kader do you believe the information on this web site?

I believe Kader likes to quote from it, so I assume he believes in the “purpose” of the information.

I can almost find humor in it, but stop short when I realize people buy into this type of extremists views. 

http://www.tallarmeniantale.com/toynbee-ozdemir.htm

THE PURPOSE OF TALL ARMENIAN TALE (TAT)

...Is to expose the mythological “Armenian genocide,” from the years 1915-16. A wartime tragedy involving the losses of so many has been turned into a politicized story of “exclusive victimhood,” and because of the prevailing prejudice against Turks, along with Turkish indifference, those in the world, particularly in the West, have been quick to accept these terribly defamatory claims involving the worst crime against humanity. Few stop to investigate below the surface that those regarded as the innocent victims, the Armenians, while seeking to establish an independent state, have been the ones to commit systematic ethnic cleansing against those who did not fit into their racial/religious ideal: Muslims, Jews, and even fellow Armenians who had converted to Islam. Criminals as Dro, Antranik, Keri, Armen Garo and Soghoman Tehlirian (the assassin of Talat Pasha, one of the three Young Turk leaders, along with Enver and Jemal) contributed toward the deaths (via massacres, atrocities, and forced deportation) of countless innocents, numbering over half a million. What determines genocide is not the number of casualties or the cruelty of the persecutions, but the intent to destroy a group, the members of which are guilty of nothing beyond being members of that group. The Armenians suffered their fate of resettlement not for their ethnicity, having co-existed and prospered in the Ottoman Empire for centuries, but because they rebelled against their dying Ottoman nation during WWI (World War I); a rebellion that even their leaders of the period, such as Boghos Nubar and Hovhannes Katchaznouni, have admitted. Yet the hypocritical world rarely bothers to look beneath the surface, not only because of anti-Turkish prejudice, but because of Armenian wealth and intimidation tactics. As a result, these libelous lies, sometimes belonging in the category of “genocide studies,” have become part of the school curricula of many regions. Armenian scholars such as Vahakn Dadrian, Peter Balakian, Richard Hovannisian, Dennis Papazian and Levon Marashlian have been known to dishonestly present only one side of their story, as long as their genocide becomes affirmed. They have enlisted the help of “genocide scholars,” such as Roger Smith, Robert Melson, Samantha Power, and Israel Charny… and particularly those of Turkish extraction, such as Taner Akcam and Fatma Muge Gocek, who justify their alliance with those who actively work to harm the interests of their native country, with the claim that such efforts will help make Turkey more” democratic.” On the other side of this coin are genuine scholars who consider all the relevant data, as true scholars have a duty to do, such as Justin McCarthy, Bernard Lewis, Heath Lowry, Erich Feigl and Guenter Lewy. The unscrupulous genocide industry, not having the facts on its side, makes a practice of attacking the messenger instead of the message, vilifying these professors as “deniers” and “agents of the Turkish government.” The truth means so little to the pro-genocide believers, some even resort to the forgeries of the Naim-Andonian telegrams or sources based on false evidence, as Franz Werfel’s The Forty Days of Musa Dagh...(continued on next post)

Emerhan,

I have said this countless times before in my previous posts but obviously you refuse to except it. And Prof. Robert Zeidner’s quote does not justify this point. What the Ottoman/Turkish government did is considered a genocide against the Armenians. The killing of Turks was not a good thing but DOES NOT negate the genocide of the Armenian people.

Also Prof. Robert Zeidner’s quote fails to mention that it is not only Armenian scholars but but others as well Turkish, German, American who have come to the obvious conclusion of genocide. It would not make sense that these scholars would buy into a so-called “ethnocentric” course over the Turkish people.

You can keep Prof. Robert Zeidner’s quote in your scrap book because it does not serve your arguement, becasue this is not solely Armenian scholarly arguement but others as well (as I mentioned) that agree this was a genocide.

Armenians were provolked into defending themselves and the numbers are obviously overinflated, and they did not have an organized army to cause such mass killing.

Rich wrote:  “Scholars have researched the complexities of the Armenian genocide and uncovered the “truth” as you put it.”

Really?  Here’s what Prof. Robert Zeidner has to say about this claim of yours:

“It is most unfortunate that the bulk of the vast literature available in this field comes form the pens of such authors [i.e. Armenian apologists], almost all of it bent on an ethnocentric course to demonstrate the supposed superiority of Christian Armenian culture over that of the “unspeakable” Muslim Turk…

Worst yet, Armenian scholars have consistently dwelled on Turkish massacres of their compatriots in all their grisly details WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A WORD on the EQUALLY SAVAGE measures taken BY THE ARMENIANS of the Transcausasus and eastern Anatolia AGAINST THE LOCAL TURKIC POPULACE from 1905 to 1920.  Indeed, when questioned on such episodes, they even dismiss them as Turkish propaganda.  Yet the evidence for accepting them as fact is overwhelming…

More significant perhaps is the considerable body of evidence which indicates that Armenian revolutionists DELIBERATELY FOMENTED MASSACRES OF THEIR COMPATRIOTS IN TURKEY FOR THE PURPOSES OF TURNING THEM AGAINST THE PORT AND OF INVOKING INTERVENTION BY THE GREAT POWERS.  On the other hand, it was thanks to prompt action by local Turkish authorities, so often maligned for incompetence, corruption, and bad faith by Western travellers and diplomats, that Cilicia proper and Elazig-Harput were spared from slaughter during the massacres of 1894-96.  During the episode of April 1909, Mersin and areas outside Cilicia proper were similarly spared, with the one notable exception of Latakia on the northern Syrian coast…

[Re. the 1915-1916 relocations]:  The vast litarture available on these episodes, on the other hand, is inconclusive as to whether they began spontaneously or were triggered by orders from Istanbul.” (Tricolors over the Taurus, pp. 44-46)

Rich wrote:  “Frankly Britain, France, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaks) did not commit genocidal, talking about them is irrelevant.”

Wrong, my friend.  Britain, France, and the Dashnaks have lots of Turkish blood on their hands, WE DON’T FORGET.  Furthermore, to pass TURKISH VICTIMS off as being irrelevant is not only disrespectful, but logically incorrect.

Would it be fair to call the U.S. “an imperialistic invader of Iraq”, ignoring the 9/11 attack and the many Americans that were killed?

Or what if a Japanese army was invading the U.S., burning American towns, massacring her people...do you really expect the U.S. for instance to just sit around and try to figure out which Japanese are innocent, and which were guilty of treason?  The bombing of one Hawaian island was sufficient cause for the U.S. to shove all its Japanese-American citizens into concentration camps.  I am not justifying their move, but I am merely showing that every action gets a reaction, and Turkey took a lot more beating by the Armenian revolutionaries before deciding on the relocation, then did America when it decided to round-up the “Japs.”

In 1914, in the Kars-Ardahan vincinity ALONE, THIRTY THOUSAND (30,000) Turkish people were massacred by Armenians.  In Van, in 1915, tens of thousands more were massacred, again by Armenians.  WHAT WOULD AMERICA DO IF 50,000 - 100,000 AMERICANS WERE BUTCHERED IN WITHIN TWO YEARS!!???

You can’t IGNORE Armenian activities, and expect to be able to pass a fair judgement on the Ottoman government!

Rich wrote:  “Somehow the Turks being killed is suppose to negate the Armenian genocide? No way!”

Of course it doesn’t NEGATE Armenian deaths.  But the point is that you CAN’T IGNORE TURKISH DEATHS.  There is no proof of the Ottoman government ordered the massacre of any Armenians.  What the Ottomans did was more like what the U.S. did to Japanese-Americans.  The government is only guilty of failing to protect their citizens, Armenian and Turkish alike, from attack.

Kader wrote:

Rich,

Turkey will never accept genocide claims even if EU wants us to do so. I can see other concessions like opening our border with Armenia and giving more freedom to the Turkish Armenian community (which are good things) but not accepting genocide. Don’t count on EU on this subject. By the way, who knows there will be an EU 10 years from now?”

---

I think Turkey must come to terms with it’s past from within, but also knowing what the rest of the international community already has shown to it.

The word “never” is too extreme for a government policy. Interests change they never remain constant. I believe it is possible that Turkey will make a pragmatic choice to recognize the Armenian genocide.

As for opening the borders Armenia is open for dialoge on the subject it is Turkey’s policy to have it closed, not Armenia.

I don’t see any indication that the EU will not be around in 10 years, either way the Armenian genocide issue will still be as candid in 10 years as it is today.

Hopefully Turkey will make it’s pragmatic choice that will also seem to be a moral choice, and except it’s past.

Maybe then in regards to this issue it can look toward the future with a better partnership with it’s geographic neigbors, as well as the international community.

Emerhan wrote:

“I would hope that rather than trying to force genocide charges on Turkey, and trying to oversimplify a complex situation, you would be more interested in learning the truth. 

But it seems like pegging Turks as a scapegoat is much easier than taking a hard look at the misdeads of Britain, France, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaks)...and putting into proper proportion the misdeads of individual officials and Kurds, recognizing that hundreds of thousands of Turks were murdered too.

While continuing your present policies may seem wise in terms of trying to get land or reparations, it only makes healing these deep old wounds harder, and won’t bring the two communities together.”

--

No one said the Armenian genocide issue is “oversimplfied”.

Scholars have researched the complexities of the Armenian genocide and uncovered the “truth” as you put it.

It would not matter what ethnic group committed the Armenian genocide, but in this case it was perpetrated by the Ottoman/Turkish government policies which resulted in genocide.

Frankly Britain, France, the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaks) did not commit genocidal, talking about them is irrelevant.

Working on getting two comunities together Armenians and Turks will happen eventually (that is secondary) The issue stems with the GOVERNMENT OF TURKEY’S current policies not directly with it’s citizens, OR Turks per se.

The larger picture is not only for recognition for Armenians also for humanity.

Somehow the Turks being killed is suppose to negate the Armenian genocide? No way!

What happend to the Turks is unexceptable but two wrongs does not negate what happend to the Armenian civil populations.

Kader this is in response to your post #46573

Children as Victims of Genocide:The Armenian Case by Vahakn N. Dadrian

Subtitle: Trabzon: A Microcosm of Multi-Level Child-killings