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 Chris Hedges: Coveting the HolocaustPosted on Oct 23, 2006
By Chris Hedges Editor’s Note: The former Middle East bureau chief for The New York Times and author of the bestseller “War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning” takes a hard look at the political capital of suffering.
I sent my New York University journalism students out to write stories based on any one of the themes in the Ten Commandments. A woman of Armenian descent came back with an article about how Armenians she had interviewed were covetous of the Jewish Holocaust. The idea that one people who suffered near decimation could be covetous of another that also suffered near decimation was, to say the least, different. And when the French lower house of parliament approved a bill earlier this month making it a crime to deny the Armenian genocide I began to wonder what it was she, and those she had interviewed, actually coveted.
And so what this student, and those she had interviewed, coveted was not the actual experience of the Holocaust, not the suffering of Jews in the death camps, but the political capital that Israel and many of its supporters have successfully gleaned from the Holocaust. And while I sympathize with the Armenians, while I understand their rage toward Turkey, I do not wish to see them, or anyone else, wield their own genocide as a political weapon. There is a fine and dangerous line between the need for historical truth and public apology, in this case by the Turks, and the gross misuse of human tragedy. French President Jacques Chirac and his interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, said this month that Turkey will have to recognize the genocide before Turkey is allowed to join the European Union. Most European nations turned their backs on the French, with the EU issuing a statement saying that the French bill will “prohibit dialogue.” But the French move is salutary, not only for the Armenians who have been humiliated and defamed by successive waves of Turkish governments but for the Turks as well. Historical amnesia, as anyone who has lived in the Middle East or the Balkans knows, makes reconciliation and healing impossible. It fosters a dangerous sense of grievance and rage. It makes any real dialogue impossible. Nearly 100 years after the murderous rampage by the Turks it can still be a crime to name the Armenian holocaust under Law 301, which prohibits anyone from defaming Turkey. One of the most courageous violators of that law is the writer Orhan Pamuk, who has criticized his country’s refusal to confront its past, and who just won the Nobel Prize for Literature. But he is a solitary figure in Turkey. Historical black holes also empower those who insist that the Nazi Holocaust is unique, that it is somehow beyond human comprehension and stands apart from other human activity. These silences make it easier to minimize, misunderstand and ignore the reality of other genocides, how they work and how they are carried out. They make it easier to turn tragedy into myth. They make it easier to misread the real lesson of the Holocaust, which, as Christopher Browning illustrated in his book “Ordinary Men,” is that the line between the victim and the victimizer is razor-thin. Most of us, as Browning correctly argues, can be seduced and manipulated into killing our neighbors. Few are immune.
The communists, not the Jews, were the Nazis’ first victims, and the handicapped were the first to be gassed in the German death factories. This is not to minimize the suffering of the Jews, but these victims too deserve attention. And what about Gypsies, homosexuals, prisoners of war and German political dissidents? What, on a wider scale, about the Cambodians, the Rwandans, and the millions more who have been slaughtered by utopian idealists who believe the eradication of other human beings will cleanse the world?
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By Emrehan Delibas, December 25, 2006 at 8:01 am # Rich wrote: “...which as I stated numerous times is catagorized as a genocide.” Don’t you find it interesting that most of the Ottoman history texts and Ottoman history experts *refuse* to call these events genocide, instead referring to them as massacres? The only people who I know of that call it genocide in definite terms are “genocide scholars” who basically call anything genocide once one person has written a book on it, like Dadrian. The “genocide industry” bases much of their books on Dadrians, and we all know how “impartial” and “scholastic” he is. I have read some of Dadrian’s works, and he inscrupulously relies on documents that have been proven to be forgeries. I also find it interesting that Ottoman history experts are truly afraid of really even dealing with the subject of the Armenian relocations because many historians who challenge the Armenian lobby, like Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw, Andrew Mango, Justin McCarthy, Heath Lowry - have been victims of hate campaigns, attempts to get them fired, and even terrorism by Armenians! How can justice be done if historians are THREATENED into silence on the issue? Rich wrote: “The stark difference between you numbers of 500,000 Turks dieing is that Armenians did NOT systematically kill Turks. I don’t see how this is possible given that the Turks had an organized army and the Armenians were part of the Ottoman civil society. They could not have killed so many Turkish civilians without the Ottoman army intervening.” First of all, the Ottoman Army was largely deployed along the western front, leaving the Anatolian Turkish population mostly defenseless! What good is an organized army if its dying on the fields of Gallipoli? The army couldn’t save the Turkish population from Armenian attacks. If you read the military correspondences from the time between 1914-1915, you will see that it was only after large massacres of Turks by Armenians, and the Ottoman’s failure to protect their population, that in desperation some began to remark, “I don’t think we can stop these killings unless the Armenian population is relocated.” Rich: “Also the Armenians were not armed to make such an impact on such a large scale what did they use kitchen knives and rocks to kill.” Firstly, the Armenians were amply armed by the British and Russians and French. In memoirs, many Turkish civilians have testified to how churches and homes were used to depot ammunition and weapons. Even American archives document how Armenians in America organized to obtain money and weapons for the revolting Armenians in Anatolia. Secondly, the British archives even openly contain statements like, “We’ll give your the weapons, you kill the Muslims.” in correspondences with Armenian leaders. What clearer statement of intent to MURDER do you want??? On the contrary, not one Ottoman correspondance has been found to contain language recommending that Armenians be killed. So, perhaps you need to rethink what was state-ordered, and who was really trying to commit murder! As far as the archives go, the Ottoman archives are open, some of the documents pertaining to the Armenian question has even been posted on the internet, http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr. On the other hand, I really wish historians could get into the archives of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaks) in Boston, as they were the brain behind the Armenian massacres against Turks! By the way everyone, today is Christmas, Merry Christmas to all the Christians out there. Muslims too have a holiday coming up, around New Years, “Kurban Bayrami” (Sacrifice holiday), so to all the Muslims out there, “Bayram’in Mubarek Olsun”
By Emrehan Delibas, December 25, 2006 at 7:41 am # Rich wrote: “The Turkish government does not acknowledge how much they contributed to there archetecture on the contrary they have been whitewashing the traces of there achievements in that country.” I don’t think you are being very fair in your criticism here. There are many relics that are known to be Armenian in Turkey, ranging from the ruins of Ani, to the Akdamar Church in Van, to churches in Diyarbakir, and the Dolmabahce Palace in Istanbul. Turkey is blessed to have almost every square inch of land to carry some kind of historical relic, be it Roman, Armenian, or Turkish. I have seen many Turkish (Selcuk, Artuk, Akkoyunlu, Ottoman, etc) relics that are also in dire need of restoration. Given the number of artifacts, it is difficult to maintain them all. So Armenian artifacts are not the only ones suffering in this regard, and the government does make an effort to preserve all it can. I can’t say that for the European countries, who out of Islamic and Turkish hatred have systematically destroyed Ottoman relices in Eastern Europe. Hungary used to have one of the largest Ottoman Turkish populations, with the Turks driven out (yes, we’ve been victims of ethnic cleansing too), many of the remains have been destroyed. Now, only one or two (literally) remains are left, even the grave of Sultan Suleyman was built over with a church! Perhaps in recent times the most famous relic that was destroyed (and later restored) was the Mostar Bridge, destroyed during the war by Serbs.
By Emrehan Delibas, December 25, 2006 at 7:31 am # WH wrote “Now, I ask you when will the next step be taken? Can Turkey face the music if she invites the remnants of the Balian family to Istambul to honor their ancestors? Will Turkey ever invite us to Istambul to honor my ancestor who the Turkish government websites write so much about? Can she face the music when the foreign press asks about what happened to the family of my ancestor that they constantly use as a display of Ottoman benevolence?” Dear Whitewashed History: Remembrance of this period needs to involve respect for EVERYONE’S DEAD. This means that the Dashnaks in America and Armenia need to own up to their own crimes, to their own nationalistic politicies that lead to the ethnic strife that engulfed all of Turkey during WWI and afterwards. I think only then will justice be done to ALL the victims of this period. But it will be difficult, because doing so will require Europe to also face the fact that they USED THE ARMENIANS to topple the Ottoman Empire, not caring about what happened to the lives of ordinary Turks or Armenians - or Greeks or Assyrians for that matter. The Assyrian rebellion, for instance, was largely instigated by the British. There is much difficult history that needs to be faced, but I don’t think the politics of today will permit it, because there is too much at stake.
By Rich, December 24, 2006 at 1:37 pm # The Dolmabahçe Mosque, Istanbul (1852-53). Is built by the first of the Balian family of architects, Karabet, as an adaptation of a neo-classical style to the requirements of a small royal mosque. Its minarets take the shape of Corinthian columns. It, and the palace that gave it its name, are two examples of the strong influence of Western models in late Ottoman architecture. ----- The many works of the Balian family in Constantinople reflect the sultans’ tastes for luxury. As a result of their extravagant exploits, every sultan commissioned the construction of a new palace, leading to a great number of palaces within the capital. In their efforts, the sultans were endeavoring to modernize and westernize their capital in the tradition of other European capitals. Due to the Balians’ Western education and training, many European influences can be traced in their design, including French Renaissance, Neoclassicism, Greek-revival, Baroque, and Art-Nouveau, with Baroque becoming the predominant style. Though influenced by European trends, the Balians’ architecture was never a mere imitation. They obtained their own unique style which was a fusion between European and Eastern architecture. Attributes of their designs include the lavish ornamentation and extensive use of columns on the exterior elevations of buildings. Interiors displayed exotic Oriental designs and decorations, accented with Moorish influence, particularly in ceremonial halls. These halls were decorated with majestic staircases, marble claddings, decorated ceilings, and many elements of fantasy, to list just a few of the norms the Balians introduced to Ottoman architecture. The Balian architects were considered members of Armenian nobility in Constantinople. Actively involved in the Armenian community’s religious, social, and cultural life, they were patrons of Armenian culture, and their residence was a gathering place for the Armenian intelligentsia. They built many churches, schools, and hospitals as well as a theatre for the Armenian community. Valuable contributors to both art and architecture, the Balians left an indelible mark on 19th century Ottoman architecture and the city of Constantinople. Their buildings manifest the might of the Ottoman Empire as well as the undeniable and multifaceted genius of these Armenian architects. ---------- Emerhan wrote: “The most famous Armenian architect I know of is the Balikian family who worked on the Dolmabahce Palace in Istanbul.” Your response does not justify there contributions to the Ottomans and Turkey today. The Turkish government does not acknowledge how much they contributed to there archetecture on the contrary they have been whitewashing the traces of there achievements in that country. Maybe after you pay hommage to Ataturk’s mausoleum (as a tourist) check the tour guide in alphebetical order you will find Balian Family. If not ask around maybe you will be kindly directed to the archetecture they have contributed, or more likely you will get a blank puzzled look. ---- Emerhan, Do you have any more links of the “courageousness of the Turkish soldiers in Korea”, I’d like to learn more, as do the readers of truthdig.
By Kadir, December 24, 2006 at 11:58 am # I am planning to buy this book from Amazon: This book is said to be very objective (this usually translates into pro-Turkish in Armenian eyes). Anyway, I want to read a pro-Armenian book together with this one. Can you suggest a book to me?
By Rich, December 24, 2006 at 11:49 am # Hey Emerhan, My points are directed more toward the Ottoman/Turkish governments denialist policies. If you stand in the way of truth because you percieve the Armenian genoicde not to be the truth, well maybe you will come to terms with it or not that is your free will. I make no mistake in stating that it was the Ottoman/Turkish governments decision to systematically kill Armenians in mass numbers, which as I stated numerous times is catagorized as a genocide. The Armenian genocide was an inhuman act and very barbourus. You except this as untrue that is your right, no one can force you to make decisions. If you except other sources as true that is your free will, maybe later you will expand on your sources to learn more on this subject, or you will feel content to keep justifying your position. My words are not twisted although possibly your filters may seem that I have ill will toward the Turkish people. A number of Turks and Kurds did save Armenians from eventual death, this is common knowledge among notable scholars. The stark difference between you numbers of 500,000 Turks dieing is that Armenians did NOT systematically kill Turks. I don’t see how this is possible given that the Turks had an organized army and the Armenians were part of the Ottoman civil society. They could not have killed so many Turkish civilians without the Ottoman army intervening. Also the Armenians were not armed to make such an impact on such a large scale what did they use kitchen knives and rocks to kill. I don’t believe you believe you are “brainwashed” or “forced” to except what you have selectively learned from the denialists positions. That is the beauty of Turkish propoganda, and taking side of what you interpt as history, from your selected denialist historians. I believe the educated truthdig readers already know enough to conclude as with the rest of the international community that the Armenian genocide did occur. Keep posting links if it make you feel that your points are justified. In the mean time I will read more on what TURKISH academics are writing about the Armenian genocide, and trust me, it is not a denialist position. A number of Mosques were designed by the Balian family, but the Turkish government has not poblically recognized many of them as such. This is yet another example of Turkey avoiding it’s history, this is a pattern along with the Armenian churches that are in ruins, and used as target practice by the Turkish military. Some are said to be preserved but the mass destruction and desimation outweight any tangible movement to preserve the historic Armenian Churches. Make no mistake wheels of the Armenian genocide by the Turkish government are still turning, getting rid of Armenian human life and the Armenian’s cultural and religious relics. I give the German government credit for preserving some of the concentration camps used to kill the Jewish people. They can face the truth now, and have moved forward with transparency of their history. Not willingly becasue they lost the the war, but for the best for all humanity. The same will hold true for the Turkish government they are unwilling but will come around (not through violence) but it will happen. The Turkish government has stated that there archives are open for scrutiny but nothing could be further from the truth. Historians who have went through the process of doing research were met with layers upon layers of difficulty not to mention bodily harm while trying to gain access to information. The so-called open archives are anything but open.
By Kadir, December 24, 2006 at 1:18 am # WH wrote “Now, I ask you when will the next step be taken? Can Turkey face the music if she invites the remnants of the Balian family to Istambul to honor their ancestors? Will Turkey ever invite us to Istambul to honor my ancestor who the Turkish government websites write so much about? Can she face the music when the foreign press asks about what happened to the family of my ancestor that they constantly use as a display of Ottoman benevolence?” I was talking to a friend today (a civil engineer) and he told me that some projects were underway in eastern Turkey to restore some of the old Armenian buldings. He told me about a bridge just at the border with Armenia and Turkey which is restored. These are good things. I hope more will come. I have no objection if Balian family is broght to Turkey and celebrated for their ancestor’s accomplishments. I told this before. Just because Armenian people had big names and accomplishements does not make their deads more important. Turks were villagers and farmers. They weren’t famaous but this does not change the fact that they were killed. And many of them at the hands or Armenian militia. It is about keeping things logical. There was ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Anatolia, yes. But it wasn’t out of racism or it wasn’t meant to kill Armenians. Why else would Ottoman government hang many officials who were involved in killings? Why else would England prosecute many Ottoman officials after war in charges of genocide in Malta but then leave all of them free? There was bad planning and many corrupt officials. But not all the deaths can be attributed to this. There was also revenge killings. Can you say there is genocide in Iraq now? Government is mostly controlled by Shiites and some Shiites kill sunnis. But some sunnis kill shiites, too. It is a tragedy but not a genocide. 1915 Anatolia is the same in my eyes. A big tragedy for all sorts of people in Turkey. As I said before, I believe more tragic to Armenians unfortunately. I understand your rage as well. If my family was murdered, I wouldn’t be thinking about the murdered people on the other side probably. If I was leading Turkey, I would open the border with Armenia right away and choose a day other than April 24th to remember all the killed people in Anatolia including the Armenians. The collapse of Empires were always bloody. Ethnic variaty can be a great benefit or can cause great conflicts. You shouldn’t put the burden of all the deaths on one ethnic group. I don’t think it is fair.
By Whitewashed History, December 22, 2006 at 3:42 pm # Emrehan wrote: “Dear Whitewashed History; Yes, you are right, the correct name is Balian. Thanks for the correction on this.” Now, I ask you when will the next step be taken? Can Turkey face the music if she invites the remnants of the Balian family to Istambul to honor their ancestors? Will Turkey ever invite us to Istambul to honor my ancestor who the Turkish government websites write so much about? Can she face the music when the foreign press asks about what happened to the family of my ancestor that they constantly use as a display of Ottoman benevolence?
By Emrehan Delibas, December 22, 2006 at 9:09 am # Rich: I believe your last note was directed towards me, not Kadir. Rich wrote: “I never said Turks are inhuman” You don’t need to use those identical words to imply them in the way you write your sentences and have total disregard for Turkish life, continually trying to portray Turks as barbarians. Rich wrote: I never said you were from Turkey did I?” You wrote in previous post: “ I believe this is has been deliberately thrust upon your people by the Turkish governement only to be excepted wholeheartedly by the weakest of minds.” This basically implies that I should have been in some situation so as the Turkish government could “force” me to believe what I do - which basically can only happen if I was a product of the Turkish education system, i.e. from Turkey. My point here is that I have not been brainwashed by anyone here, and I have not been reading selectively either. Most of the sources I have cited are American. Armenian allegations of genocide ignore the fact that there is no proof for state-ordered involvement in any of the deaths (many of which were not of violent means, but by hunger and disease, something all Anatolians fell victim to.) Kangaroo courts with no due-process and forged documents are not valid sources to show state-involvement! Sadly, I have met many Armenians like yourself who are in denial of even the basic background history of the time. I have met many Armenians how did not know that Armenians were a minority in Eastern Anatolia, who did not know or deny that there was a major revolution among Armenians in which many fought with the Allies, against the Turks. I have met many Armenians who did not know that in the 1800s Yerevan was 40% Turkish, instead believing that Armenia was always 99% Armenian as it is today… Sadly, many Armenians reject the fact that over 500,000 Turks died at Armenian hands. But these are facts that any telling of the history of this time must include. Any historian who rejects these basic facts, and then on a wrong foundation, using falsified documents and kangaroo courts as “evidince”, tries to accuse Turks of genocide can logically only come to a wrong conclusion.
By Emrehan Delibas, December 22, 2006 at 8:42 am # Dear Whitewashed History; Yes, you are right, the correct name is Balian. Thanks for the correction on this. Dear Rich; You’ve come to the point where no matter what I say, you launch a personal attack at me and my ancestors. I state that I know of famous Armenian architects (i.e. Balian), and it is still not sufficient for you. Now my crime is not recognizing that the Balian family “contributed much more than you state”?? And again you attack me for not having “humily and respect”? You twist everything and then expect me to respond to this? Like your comment about me supposedly perceiving you to be superior? Man for the last several posts you’ve been going on an on about how Armenians allegedly fought while Turks “ran like girls” and are claiming that all our mosques were designed by Armenians, insulting us every which way with truly no respect or anything...You’re the one who thinks he’s superior and has no respect. Dude, get a life...really man, I am not going to play this game with you anymore. If you have something meaningful to say about Ottoman or Armenian history, then say it. I am not going to engage in this kind of banter with you, I have better things to do, and so do the readers of Truthdig. In the meantime, those readers wishing to read about the courageousness of the Turkish soldiers in Korea are invited to read these articles: “The Turkish Brigade” “Korean War: 1st Turkish Brigade’s Baptism of Fire” “The Wrestling Turks and American Military Morale in the Korean War
By Rich, December 21, 2006 at 10:53 pm # Kader, You seem to go further and further into the abyss. How many times do I have to re-state that if you feel that I am superior that it is something you have to overcome. I never said Turks are inhuman, I do view them as human beings but it is the Turkish governemnt and there ilk that spew out propoganda that you swallow like candy to an infant. I never said you were from Turkey did I? You even quote me and can’t read what I wrote. If your previous posts are an indication of your “years of research” I suggest not reading so selectivly. Let us not forget that the ultimate acts of terror was the systematic, government organized genocide by the Ottoman/Turkish government (which you deny and dispute). Where was the “respect and understanding” of the Armenians who were systematically killed in Ottoman/Turkey? It is even more distressing to learn that you have the freedom of the Armerican educational system yet conform to the Turkish denialist position of the Armenian genocide. At least an immigrant from Turkey can rightfully attest to pure ignorance on the subject of the Armenian genocide, and the antagonistic views of the Armenian genocide. This is sad news, but unfortunatly not suprising.
By Whitewashed History, December 21, 2006 at 7:50 pm # Sorry you guys, both the Armenian and the Turk, the name is “Balian” not “Balakian.”
By Emrehan Delibas, December 21, 2006 at 7:42 pm # Rich wrote: “Maybe if you were open to dialoge as opposed to making comments as dragging in the mud, calling us racists, and other grade school language you would gain some knowledge of your own culture.” Dear Rich, I am not dragging you in the mud. I am merely describing the nature of your comments. If you don’t like the description, then I suggest you start viewing Turks as human beings, who also have feelings, who also can be killed, suffer, and hurt, and who are also capable of great accomplishments in the arts and sciences! That you suggest that I would learn about “my own culture” from you is a joke, and just another reflection of your superiority complex. I have never insulted the Armenian people the way you’ve attacked the Turks… Rich wrote: “Rather you choose to put yourself into a box of knowledge that only fits your perceptions of your culture. I believe this is has been deliberately thrust upon your people by the Turkish governement only to be excepted wholeheartedly by the weakest of minds.” Dear Rich, again you make the (wrong) assumption that I am from Turkey. I am NOT from Turkey, I am an American of Turkish ethnicity born and raised in the United States. I am a product of the AMERICAN, not Turkish, education system. Just as you called excerpts from AMERICAN archives “Turkish government propaganda” (with no regard for the truth), so you are mislabelling me. I have spent years reading about and researching this subject. I have read Armenian, Turkish, and American authors. In my previous posts, I have already pointed out some of the shortcomings of the claims of the Armenian lobby. You refuse to discuss the issues. That is your choice, of course. But please don’t come to me now acting like you wanted “dialogue.” It is not possible to have dialogue with someone who cannot reason logically and labels anything against your views “Turkish propaganda.” Wow, what a statement considering that Armenians worldwide have supported the law in France jailing people for speaking against Armenian claims. The Armenian lobby has no respect for free speech...Armenians have resorted even to terrorism in the past to silence Turks. Even today, the LA Armenian community raised over 400,000 dollars to free a convicted Armenian terrorist. One of the past ANCA Chairmen was even convicted of terror related bombing charges! Rich wrote: “I already know where you lie in your thoughts (without movement, and constant stagnancy).” I am not stagnant. I continually read recent publications and newly published relevent books. If I seem “constant” in my beliefs, it is because they are based on years of research, not lobby organizations who seek to brainwash their youth, such as Dashnak-origined Armenian Youth Federation. Rich wrote: “your opinions are not absolute becasue of your ethnicity.” Ditto back to you. Rich wrote: “If you choose to live in stagnancy, and malace toward differing opinions that is your loss.” Again, ditto back to you. I bear no malice towards the Armenian people. I just contest the one-sided propaganda of the Armenian lobby which conflicts with basic history. In middle school, my best friend was Armenian. One day I was harrassed by another Armenian student for being Turkish and was called a “murderer.” My Armenian friend consoled me saying, “Forget those Armenians, they only have hate in their hearts. My family told me about that period as well. People on both sides died, we killed each other, and we are both the worse off for it. Now is the time for respect and understanding. Cheer up.” I think thats advice everyone can benefit from.
By Rich, December 21, 2006 at 4:12 pm # Emerhan, You stated that I have a “Armenian superiority complex”. If you percieve me as superior, that is something you must overcome, or maintain your percieved the status quo. Sorry if you took my comments in a negative light many in the muslum religion, as well as others did worship in caves durring and before the times this region in question was invaded by outside forces. You just seem to be so full of yourself and your people when excluding other races that made significant contributions to your country. And the Balakian family contributed much more than you state. Maybe if you studied outside your nationalistic circles, past your whitwashed history you may have some more humility and respect toward others. I think this is the downfall of the current Turkish state of affairs, and others who follow it’s destructive path.
By Rich, December 21, 2006 at 12:40 pm # Kader wrote: “Who is this soldier? Has he served in Korea? Probably that congressman was asking for Armenian funds and votes and what is better than attacking Turks for that! Probably some soldiers cut off ears. That is war. Some people go crazy. You shouldn’t generalize on this. But you will anyway.” How come there always seems to be a hypethetical alterior motive for everything? The soldier I describe did serve in the Korean War and had nothing to gain by disclosing what some of the Turks did to the enemy. I just wanted to point out to your buddy Emerhan that he has little to be proud of in respect to the pride of Turkish soldiers. His views are blurred by nationalistic pride bred down from years long Turkish propoganda. I don’t blame him directly for being so easily influenced, it is a common weakness seen more from the older generation then the young. But outside of his circle of like minded nationals, the rest of the international society cares little about Turkish soldiers.
By Kadir, December 21, 2006 at 11:44 am # Rich wrote: You weren’t shouting… I thought it was you who wrote comment #42743 and I was building on that… Sorry for the misunderstanding. I don’t like statements like the one you made about living in caves. I think we should focus on constructive statements instead of saying things that are insulting without any base. It is good to put yourself in other’s shoes. You have to understand that most of the Turks really believe that the events were not a genocide. You can say it is government pressure or something else but personaly for me, all my knowledge about this subject comes from my personal research about it after I came to USA. I didn’t even know the genocide claims when I was in Turkey. Anyhow, there is no reason to insult/hate one another. Even if genocide occured, the Turks who claim otherwise really think that it did not occur. And we have our reasons. You shouldn’t have anger towards Turks is what I am trying to say. Let’s keep talking. I am really learning by this conversation… I hope more Armenians/Turks will talk. Unfortunately I am sure if Turks and Armenians meet face to face, there will be insults maybe fights. I think this is a serious problem. I still have the hope to have an Armenian-Turkish party and have fun but who knows when
By Rich, December 20, 2006 at 8:56 pm # Kader, Where in my posts have I shouted? All capital letters? Exclamation points? I am curious. I am with you on the back and forth dialoge even if we starkly disagree. It’s a good thing to know where we stand, although I have heard it before. R~
By Emrehan Delibas, December 20, 2006 at 2:50 pm # Rich wrote: “Hey Emrehan what about the famous Armenian architects who designed the Mosques in what is called Turkey today? Do you know who they are?” The most famous Armenian architect I know of is the Balikian family who worked on the Dolmabahce Palace in Istanbul. Rich wrote: “If it wasn’t for them Turks would still be worshiping in caves.” Dear dear Rich, you must have some kind of Armenian superiority complex. Your remarks show for themselves the kind of man you are, and don’t deserve a response. You live in a really amazing world, Rich. Too bad your world is disconnected from reality.
By Rich, December 20, 2006 at 2:45 pm # Emerhan, Maybe if you were open to dialoge as opposed to making comments as dragging in the mud, calling us racists, and other grade school language you would gain some knowledge of your own culture. Rather you choose to put yourself into a box of knowledge that only fits your perceptions of your culture. I believe this is has been deliberately thrust upon your people by the Turkish governement only to be excepted wholeheartedly by the weakest of minds. The nationalistic mind set has no room for exceptence, and humility. This is evidently so by all your responses leaving no room for positive dialoge and left with feeble personal attacks. Luckly many of us who today live in Westernized countries have the freedom to dialoge on subjects without exceptions. I suggested that Kader do some independent study on his language and it’s origination not you, I already know where you lie in your thoughts (without movement, and constant stagnancy). Seems Kader has an open mind and can stand to dialoge with people outside his race, that I commend. Remember, we do not live in the Ottoman era and your opinions are not absolute becasue of your ethnicity. If you choose to live in stagnancy, and malace toward differing opinions that is your loss. Thankfully other readers can formulate there opinions by reading our posts and make conclusions not only by our opinions but to conduct independent research to justify our posts. It may be tough medicine to swallow but our cultures intermingled, genetically, culturally, in business, and in history, to the Turks benifit in the end, not ours. There in lies your challenge, research without your filters.
By Kadir, December 20, 2006 at 11:27 am # Rich wrote: “A decorated soldier who works for a prominent US Congressman told me some Turks serving in the Korean war were nothing short of barbourous. Cutting off the ears and adorning themselves with the teeth of the enemy made them great soldiers?” Who is this soldier? Has he served in Korea? Probably that congressman was asking for Armenian funds and votes and what is better than attacking Turks for that! Probably some soldiers cut off ears. That is war. Some people go crazy. You shouldn’t generalize on this. But you will anyway.
By Kadir, December 20, 2006 at 9:23 am # When I read this from Rich: “If it wasn’t for them Turks would still be worshiping in caves.” It seemed weird to me because I thought it was Rich who wrote this: “Dear Kadir, You seem to be someone who we could sit down with and discuss things reasonably.” But then I went to that post and saw it was from WhiteWashed actually
By Kadir, December 20, 2006 at 2:07 am # Hi Rich, I am always up for a good conversation. As long as both sides talk and not shout, I think conversation is always good. I wish more and more Armenians and Turks will have personal relationships and even friendships that will help us understand each other. About the Turkish language, it is the first time I am hearing that somebody put Turkish in Indo-European family. I think there is some debate about if Altaic family is a valid family or not but I did not know anybody suggest that Turkish is from Indo-European family. I have to do some more research on this. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_language) Classification Turkish is a member of the Turkish family of languages, which includes Gagauz and Khorasani Turkish. The Turkish family is a subgroup of the Oghuz languages, themselves a subgroup of the Turkic languages, which some linguists believe to be a part of the Altaic language family. Like Finnish and Hungarian, Turkish has vowel harmony, is agglutinative and has no grammatical gender. The basic word order is Subject Object Verb. Turkish has a T-V distinction: second-person plural forms can be used for individuals as a sign of respect.
By Rich, December 19, 2006 at 11:01 pm # Hey Emrehan what about the famous Armenian architects who designed the Mosques in what is called Turkey today? Do you know who they are? If it wasn’t for them Turks would still be worshiping in caves.
By Emrehan Delibas, December 19, 2006 at 10:25 pm # Rich wrote: “Does it take an Armenian to explain where your language originated from?” I don’t believe I’ve ever met anyone as cocky as you, Rich. Now all of a sudden you’ve become an expert linguist? As you’ve done with many other topics in this forum, you’ve taken the views of one side in a controversy and declared it as fact. If you read wikipidi and other sources like answers.com in more detail, you will realize that the Ural-Altaic classification is still being debated and that there are many theories being put forward during this debate, of which the Indo-European ties are just one of the possibilities being explored and postulated. What this basically means is that Turkish is traditionally classified as a Ural-Altaic language, and until further notice, still is.
By Rich, December 19, 2006 at 9:09 pm # Emrehan, You calling me a racist means absolutly nothing because I have not written a word as such. Describing events in history does not make me a racist. Maybe it is that you feel inferior to my comments that make you feel this way. This is something that you need to work out in your own mind. A decorated soldier who works for a prominent US Congressman told me some Turks serving in the Korean war were nothing short of barbourous. Cutting off the ears and adorning themselves with the teeth of the enemy made them great soldiers? The Turks may see themselves as great fighters, but thats as far as it goes.
By Whitewashed History, December 19, 2006 at 8:11 pm # Emrehan, I did not state that there are NO prominent Turks in history, only that Armenians and other minorities are not given recognition as such. You use this to you get up on your soapbox and speak of my denigrating Turks. WHAT? Where have I denigrated Turks. This is all part of your ongoing game. As for the Armenians you speak of, these are not only figures in history but my flesh and blood cut to pieces or drowned in the prime of their lives.
By Emrehan Delibas, December 18, 2006 at 9:08 pm # WH wrote: “Interesting how you always seem to ignore my statements about Assyrians and Pontic Greeks being annihilated, since it doesn’t fit your argument that the Armenians got what they deserved because some rebelled.” Actually, during WWI period there WAS an Assyrian Rebellion (they call the Mardin region “Turabdin"), and when Greece invaded Izmir in 1919, it raised all the hopes of ethnic Greeks in Anatolia for renewed Greek rule. All over Anatolia, the Greek minority aided the Greek army. I remember in a previous post you made a comment to the effect of “no one was trying to get Istanbul or Ankara” or such...well, the Greek army marched very close to Ankara before finally being stopped at Sakarya (if they could have, they would have entered Ankara, gunfire could be heard from the city). And if they could, the Greeks would have tried to recapture Istanbul as well. Perhaps you should read this interesting article by Michael M. Finefrock entitled “Ataturk, Lloyd George and the Megali Idea: Cause and Consequence of the Greek plan to Seize Constantinople from the Allies, June-August 1922” published in 1980. It is interesting that every group that rebelled, but failed to win the territory they sought after, has claimed “genocide.” Most amusing are the Greek claims, because even Greece did not begin commemorating their fake “genocide” until 1993, about 80 years after they claim it happened! Not suprisingly, such allegations are most frequently repeated in anti-Muslim websites such as jihadwatch.
By Emrehan Delibas, December 18, 2006 at 7:28 pm # WH wrote: “Many of the most illustrious members of Ottoman society are presented as Turks, when in reality they were Armenians, Kurds or from other minorities. One recent example of this was the hysteria in Turkey when it was revealed that one of Ataturk’s adopted daughters was an Armenian.” As Kadir mentioned, there were many prominent Armenian, Greek families who were involved with trade, had posts in the government, etc. However, to degrade Turks in the way WH did is very unjust. First of all, I should remind you that even “donme” Ottomans, like Mimar Sinan, even if he did not have Turkish blood, was educated and raised in the TURKISH and MUSLIM education system. Architectural skills are not learned through blood vessels, but with education and hard work! Second of all, throughout history, there have been many WORLD famous scientists, doctors, philosophers. Here is a sampling: There are also many famous Turkish scientists today, like Oktay Sinanoglu (Chemistry), Gazi Yasargil and Mehmet Oz in Medicine, Nejat Veziroglu, Engineering, etc… So stop denegrating Turks. Also ironic how Rich claims Turks “ran way like girls” when the bravery of heroism of Turkish soldiers has been shown time and time again, and how to this day Americans still remember the valor of Turkish soldiers in the Battle of Gallipoli, and Korea. Let me tell you, as one who has also served in the US military, for Americans, Turk = Great Soldier...Such comments of yours only shows (once again) your racism and bigotry…
By Whitewashed History, December 18, 2006 at 6:58 pm # Dear Kadir, You seem to be someone who we could sit down with and discuss things reasonably. My family reached the pinnacles of success in the Ottoman Empire, but still feared always for their safety since they were “giaours.” Their position meant nothing. Any twist of fate could have meant their death. In the end that is exactly what happened.
By Rich, December 18, 2006 at 6:03 pm # Kader, Does it take an Armenian to explain where your language originated from? I would suggest you do some independent research on your own, here are some references to start. The Ural-Altaic language family (also Uralo-Altaic) is an hypothetical grouping of the Uralic and Altaic language families into one field. The word Turanian has also been used to describe the Ural-Altaic field. The term is from the Persian word for places beyond the Oxus, Turān. The Ural-Altaic grouping is speculative, as it has not been proven to the satisfaction of most linguists that there is any genetic relationship between the two language families, and even the existence of the Altaic group as one family is today questioned. This could be for lack of analytic opportunity, however. On the other hand, particularly the southern and central Uralic languages have been in extensive contact with Turkic languages, which introduces a risk of interpreting exchange arising from contact as a genetic relationship. ----------- Several centuries after the Indo-European common language began to form dialects, the Anatolian subgroup is suddenly moves apart and start migrating to Asia Minor. This separation took part long before other branches started their own ways, so it is most interesting for the linguistics. Really, the Anatolian branch preserved a great number of phonetic, morphological and syntactic traits which do not exist in any other Indo-European group. When Anatolians separated, Proto-Indo-European continued to develop new grammar features, and they exist everywhere but in Anatolian. For example, three genders known in all Indo-European tongues did not exist in Hittite and Luwian, there are no signs of feminine stems a, i, u of nouns there. The instrumental case plural masculine form in -oys can be traced everywhere except Anatolian languages. The same can be said about the demonstrative pronoun so, sa, to, unknown only in Anatolian
By Kadir, December 18, 2006 at 1:58 pm # Rich wrote: “The Turkish language much like many other languages branches off from the indo-European language. I believe the Turkish government did a big dis-service to it’s history and culture by changing it’s written language.” Turkish language does not stem from Indo-European languages. It comes from Ural-Altaic languages which has very different grammer. As I wrote before, I think changing the alphabet (not the language) was a very good thing for Turkey. All the serious historians know about old Turkish to read old documents. There is no problem there.
By Kadir, December 18, 2006 at 10:06 am # WH wrote: “Many of the most illustrious members of Ottoman society are presented as Turks, when in reality they were Armenians, Kurds or from other minorities. One recent example of this was the hysteria in Turkey when it was revealed that one of Ataturk’s adopted daughters was an Armenian.” This only reinforces the fact that Ottoman Empire was a multicultural and tolerant empire. Till the time the minorities wanted to carve up the empire, they were never treated as second class citizens. Yes, the muslims did not pay tax and the non-muslims did but if you look at who had the wealth, you will see that it was not the muslims anyway… It was a tolerant society for its time. But WH is right that a lot of BS information is given to people in their history classes. But in this day and age, it is so easy for anyone with curiosity to search on the internet and find whatever he/she is looking for. But I want to make sure that people like Taner Akcam will not be the source for unbiased information for the ones who want to read about history.
By Lark, December 18, 2006 at 3:06 am # If Lantos stopped supporting the Turkish Republic, because Hitle’r book Mein Kampf sold a lot in 2006, I am guilty.., ‘cause I bought two copies! I have not yet started reading etither one, but alas!.., I bought two! The Armenians have participated in Jewish Holocaust in 1930’s. Let Cong. Lantos side with the Armenians and let him antagonize the Turks. It is his problem. My reason for buying two copies was just for fooling the statistics. Upon hearing that some people were excited because that book sold a lot in Turkey, I had to add my two cents to fool the statistics, so I went ahaed and bought two copies. One printing company sold that book for a very low fee and advertised at their stand so elegantly, that many people may have bought it. If Mr. Lantos jumps at this excuse to distance himslef with the truthsayers, it is his problem.
By Rich, December 17, 2006 at 11:02 pm # Hey Lumberto, Your response to Whitewashed is more filled with emotion then substance. Armenians not to be trusted was enough to disarm them? I havent found any reason other then suspicion to disarm Armenians. No evidence that soldiers within the Ottoman army uprised against anyone. In fact the Armenian fighters in the Ottoman army were known to have helped win many battles at a time when the Turks ran away like girls. We helped the Ottomans like any other citizen of the government, only to be rewarded with disarmament and execution.
By Kadir, December 17, 2006 at 7:25 pm # I think it is kind of absurd to race in terms of who was better to Jews in history. That all depends on “when”. The fact that Hitler’s book sold a lot in Turkey is a thing about current issues. People see the Iraq war as an Isreali enterprise. They don’t like Iraq war and so some don’t like Jews now. This is all temporary though. I have never seen any persistent and systematic racism in Turkey. We are hot blooded people. For a couple of years, anti-jewish stuff might be hot but it won’t have any long term effect. Apart from events of mid 1940s and 1955, I am proud of how Turks see Jews. From the Ottoman times to present, I guarantee you that Turkey will come second to USA in terms of how Jews are treated. In Israel, you will see most of the Jews migrate to Israel with bad memories from their homeland. It will be the Turkish and American jews who will have good memories from their homeland. My wish is that both sides drop their accusations and try to talk to each other. Once we trust each other again, if one side has to appologize, it will. My view is that if we look at things objectively, we will see that both sides will have things to appologize for. I don’t see it sincere to blame one side for the worst human crime while both sides lost almost same number of deaths in each others hands. And when it is known that many Armenians fought for an independent Armenia and also many foght alongside French and Russian forces…
By Kadir, December 17, 2006 at 6:27 pm # WH wrote: “Interesting how you always seem to ignore my statements about Assyrians and Pontic Greeks being annihilated, since it doesn’t fit your argument that the Armenians got what they deserved because some rebelled.” I don’t have enough knowledge about Assyrians and what happened to them. But fot the Greeks, they also gambled and lost like the Armenians. They thought that Greece will defeat Turkey and get western Anatolia. They even came close to central Anatolia near Ankara. Then when the Greeks were defeated, the Greek population was sent out of Turkey. Most of this was after mutual agreement with Greece and they sent back most of their Turkish minority back to Turkey because of this agreement. And also I want to remind you that it was Greece that paid Turkey for the humanitarian damages that they have caused. They gave Turkey Karaagac because of the suffering they caused. As I said before, it makes me sad to see that the minorities are gone. But you can not expect internal peace after your Greek subjects supported the attacking Greek army and betrayed your Turkish subjects. If there Greeks were not sent out of Turkey at that time, there would have been other events in the future which would have been violent. I also want to remind you that it was Greece who attacked Turkey and it was the Greek minority that supported them.
By Kadir, December 17, 2006 at 3:09 pm # Rich wrote: “6. Turks may have arguably died durring this time. but what happened to them was not considered genocide.” What is arguable Rich? There is nothing to argue. Do you have any reliable source against the numbers? More than 2 million Turks/Kurds (civillian) died during WW1. 500,000 of them because of Armenians. You have to put forward sources to claim these numbers as arguable.
By Rich, December 16, 2006 at 8:35 pm # Hey Guys, Aryans are a language group, not a race. German is a complete language, it has words for everything much like Armenians. This misconception about Hitler and the blond Aryan super race is far permeated into peoples mind. I believe the correct version of the word “Aryan” was blurred durring the Nazi propoganda of it’s people, and Western Allies. The Turkish language much like many other languages branches off from the indo-European language. I believe the Turkish government did a big dis-service to it’s history and culture by changing it’s written language. Hope this clears the fog on the Aryans.
By Whitewashed History, December 16, 2006 at 6:13 pm # The dishonesty of “Lumberto Peliot” is beyond belief. It is the Turkish hierarchy who is concealing the truth concerning the wherabouts of the majority of Anatolian Jews. Anyone who wants to learn the real story should read Taner Akcam’s latest book. As for ethnic cleansing over the centuries, where do you dig that up? Any reliable historian who studies Turkish historiography soon realizes that much of what Turks believe today about their past is fantasy and glorification. Many of the most illustrious members of Ottoman society are presented as Turks, when in reality they were Armenians, Kurds or from other minorities. One recent example of this was the hysteria in Turkey when it was revealed that one of Ataturk’s adopted daughters was an Armenian.
By Lumberto Peliot, December 15, 2006 at 2:32 pm # (This post is a continuation from the one below, examining recent statements of WWH, “Whitewashed History.") #42249: “Armenian soldiers in the Ottoman army were deprived of weapons and then executed, having done nothing except being Armenian.” Lark addressed WWH’s familiar departure from the truth with this one, but we must underline how exceptionally disgusting it is to perpetuate such a lie. A desperate Ottoman government under attack from all corners from superior forces, bent on causing their nation’s end, does not go through the trouble of training and equiping soldiers only to suddenly disarm them. Many Armenian soldiers in the army were in league with the Armenians who were operating behind-the-lines, havng formed a fifth column, as was the plan of the Hunchaks and Dashnaks for the longest time. Armenian soldiers couldn’t be trusted. They were disarmed, and transferred into the engineering corps. There is only one reported case of a massacre of some of these soldiers, and their renegade perpetrators were tried and executed by Vehip Pasha DURING the war. There is no proof that Armenian soldiers were massacred as a matter of policy, and there is much documentation from Turk-haters as Consul Leslie Davis and missionaries referring to Armenian soldiers in the Ottoman Army well into the war. HOW UTTERLY DISHONEST. “Some Armenians joined the Nazis so hat they could help to defeat Stalin...” This is an INCREDIBLE statement, given that Armenian propagandists are proud of the Armenians in the Soviet Army contributing to the Nazis’ defeat. European-Armenians joined the Nazis en masse, not to defeat Stalin, but because they were intoxicated with the racial purity notions still motivating many Armenians today. Armenian publications such as Hairenik and other Armenian media (e.g. radio broadcasts) will tell us all we need to know. And practically any Armenian forum will reveal the intense anti-Semitism in the hearts of too many Armenians, and for WWH to tell us Armenians had possibly “loved Jews to death” is simply numbing! Jews were among those victimized in the Armenians’ ethnic cleansing campaigns not only in eastern Anatolia, but in Armenia proper; the Jews’ existence in that region since antiquity effectively came to an end, in the hands of murderously racist Armenians. The Armenians in the Fuehrer’s army were assigned mainly to policing duties in the occupied countries, and Nazi-Armenians significantly contributed to the loss of Jewish lives during the Holocaust. |
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So, my previous comments about conversation and friendship goes to WH not Rich. I don’t think Rich is interested in conversation. Rich wrote that he is not a racist but then writes that Turks would be in caves if it wasn’t for Armenians. This is racism in action. Maybe we wouldn’t have had good soujuk without Armenians but we wouldn’t be living in caves for sure
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