I agree with Freeman.

In the political/social/religious arena “respect” in it’s modern usage is too often equated with “approval”.

Crys for “respect” from the right are always meant to intimidate and suppress opposing views.  Intolerance is devoid of “respect” and thus cannot be “respected”.

Yet every persons humanity is to be respected and honored.  Funny how the chrisitian zealots forget this important teaching of their faith.

Codified dogmatic religions and faiths are not able to tolerate or respect.  Positions of tolerance and respect for other beliefs would imply their “validity” and thus negate claims of truth.  Tolerance and respect for other beliefs is seen in many faiths as a lack of faith.

Tolerance and respect is both a strength and a weakness of Liberalism.  The extremes on the right and the left are both guilty of intolerance and disrespect.  There is in practice and effect no difference between a Jerry Falwell and a Mao, or between a Stalin and a Pope - the right and the left meet and are alies when it comes to repression and tyranny. In point of fact the extremes of the left and right are fascists ideologies in that they require the needs of the individual to be subservient to the goals of the whole - ie. the “state”, “nation”, “race”, “church”, etc.

And we can see this as a trend in the move by Evangelicals to influence the nature of the American state, and by their fear of the supremacy of individual rights and the rights of the individual.  We see this by the hate they direct a the courts and in particular judges, and by their contempt of what they lable “special interest groups” - failing to see of course that religion and the churches are “special interest” groups.

It amazes me that the Evangelicals and related religious allies the orthodox Jews, and the fundamentalist Muslims want to change the very rules that have allowed them to live in relative unmolested peace for quite some time.

RE: comments regarding respect from archeon & John Bonser.

Respect for the “thoughts” (per Bonser) & views of the intolerant lends credibility to their intolerance and aids them in their quest to force all others to follow their intolerant & destructive path of life. No respect should be given for intolerant thoughts, including our own intolerant judgements. It is our duty to EXPOSE, not “coddle” intolerance.

That having been said, respect for the HUMANITY of others (non their intolerant thoughts or actions) may be the best way to heal those who have condemned themselves to a life of “Hell on Earth” and desperately want to drag the rest of us down into their personal Hell with them. It may be a slow process, but there is a “ripple” effect when even one intolerant mind is healed.

Respect is over rated.

Crys for respect usually come from those who are least likely to do so for those who have differing views.

I would much rather simply have religion out of government and the state.

I am sorry, but I simply cannot respect the views of those who believe in a fairy tale, and who would force our state structures to functions by rules that adhere to the rules of the fairy tale.

If we count the 3000 years of Jewish history before christ, we have been listening to the views of the God cult for over 5000 years, they have had their time.  Yet the world is still a fucked up mess, people are still killing each other, raping and pillaging is still an every day occurance.  Abrahams god did not bring peace, and christ failed too.

If a Nazi wanted to talk about his views, would you respect those too?  Be very careful about demanding “respect” for the views of others, you may not like what you hear.

BTW anyone else getting a good hard laugh about the leading evangelical pastor getting outed by his secrect fuck buddy?  I just love stories about sexually repressed religious fanatics getting caught in nasty homosexual and drug scandals.  I hope there are pictures!  Now that would be the funniest.

And those are the “leaders” that would tell the rest of us imperfect sinners how we should live our lives.  The unheralded hipocracy makes me want to vomit.

Respect for others and their thoughts at times have been forgotten. We need to listen rather than spout off.

To address the Christo-facist;

To use those two words together demonstrates your utter ignorance.  Christianity, by design, is anti-facist.  If you “studied” your bible more, you would have figured that out.  Secondly, I do not want nor do I need your prayers.  As someone else said in a response, pride of faith is a sin. 

What you and other “Christo-facists” represent is the utter biggotry, ignorance, and repressive behavior carried out by weak human beings who steel themselves behind some ideology.  That’s right; what you espouse is not religion, but ideology.  Religion is about tolerance and understanding.  Perhaps you should put that bible down and pick up some history books.  Read about the rise of the Third Reich, for starters.  You might find some eerie similarities between the crap you spew out and the crap that some Germans spewed out in the 1930’s and early 1940’s--which, by the way, led to the murder of millions of innocent people.

Well Genisisproject, that is a very interesting logical chain.  You would be correct, unless there is an after life, and it does not conform to the one claimed for you in the Bile (I like that unintentional error, for it is a hateful evil text full of bile and vitriol, and totally meritless).

If you believe in the divinity of Christ, yet he was not divine - and maybe Mohamed is the final prophet of the god of abraham, then you would still go to hell.  Maybe the Hindu’s are right and because you failed to learn important life lessons, and because you were so concerned with your personal souls salvation that you forgot to open yourself to the world, you may be doomed to be reincarnated as a worm, again and again until you learn that which will let you incarnate as a higher life form.

You can not know if you are right.  And if claim to know then you will even according to your own faith be guilty of huberis, pride, and vanity, all of which will ensure your condemnation to hell. Pride of faith is a sin.  It may be the one unpardonable sin.

If there is a god, he/she/it is not the god of the bible.  The biblical god is satan.  Abrahams god is the anti-god, the lier, the cheat, the stealer of souls.  The god of genisis is the deciever, the serpent, the devil.  Only an imperfect god could have created the fucked world we live in.  Only an imperfect god could hate us so much to allow so much misery, pain, and hate to rule our lives.  Only an imperfect god could allow evil.  In the end, we can only come to the conclusion that we are the masters of our own doom, if even if god exists he has long ago abandoned us and no longer hears our prayers.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! wow you people make me sad. The way you people think is sick… have any of you actualy deeply studied the Bile? I have and I hold the Bible in high regards.There are many places within it that forwarns about all of you! call us christofacists if you like. here’s a little something for all of you to chew on: You deny The diety of Jesus christ while I fully acknowledge it. So when we die what do you think will happen. Say I die and I am wrong about Christ, what happens to me? Nothing, I just die and rot in the ground,but at least i lived a good life full of moral values and respecting others. Now say you die, what happens if your wrong about Christ, not going to be the same for you as it will for me. You’ll die and have to face the judgement seat of God, and will be condemned to hell. Even if your supposedly a “Good Person”,if you do not simply accept the fact that Jesus Christ is Lord you’ll be thrown into the depths of hell. think about it do you want to risk your eternal well being for some totaly mislead worldly views? Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the Light, and will always be it too no matter what you people say or do. at least I know where I’m going when I Die, do you? and is a happy ending?

I pray for all of you every day.

WTF would a “true” atheist look like?

He wouldn’t believe that god/a god/gods exist.
He wouldn’t believe in a after life.
He wouldn’t believe in heaven, or hell.
What his personal moral and ethical choices would be is hard to say, but having to live in a society composed of PEOPLE these would have to comform to socially acceptable norms - or he would face incarceration or death.

I wonder how many of Americas millions of felons, and convicts would say “I am an atheist!”, I bet most of them would claim to be christians.

Seems simple to me, doesn’t involve much BS and lies.

Comment regarding Bruce Donaldson’s comments:

There are many of us, including myself who are not atheists, but REJECT your biblical version of “GOD” in it’s entirety. Some of us believe that God is EVERYTHING and the universe itself IS God. (I realize this is a difficult concept for those with the fearful sheep-like mentality consistent with most radically religious persons)

Sheep like you would have a theocratic society, government, and world where everything not mandatory, would be forbidden. You would have yourselves as the self appointed masters of all life on earth, ruling through an imaginary God that only you could actually communicate with thereby making yourselves “interim” Gods until such time as the “real God” chooses to reveal It’s self to the world. (which would be never)

I will have to agree with and support the atheists because I really believe in FREEDOM & LIBERTY, even for ignorant people like you who do not understand that the theocracy you and your children end up with may be a far cry from the theocracy you want.

I send my universal love to ALL people, even you and those like you. Those who believe it is OK to kill and torture in the name of god. Who believe it is OK to lock people in a cage who do not follow your religious edicts.

Only through love can we be healed. Read your own bible, it is there. If you truly followed the teachings of Jesus, you would not need to be told this by someone you condemn to “Hell” for not being “saved” by minions of your religious organization.

Love and Harmony to ALL.
FreeMan

Correction...I made a typo....

In “red” states where the majority are conservitive christians, it’s been shown that out of the twenty-five cities with the lowest rates of violent crime 62 % are in “blue” states, while 38 % are in “red” states.

Hitler and Stalin were not atheists.  Again the christians claiming they were, are wrong. Like most of what they claim to know about history, human nature, and science.  Religion precludes debate, intercourse, and the exchange of ideas - religion is the one hand clapping equivalent of reason - silly at best, stupid at worst.

Sorry - but atheism doesn’t cause crime, it doesn’t cause rape, it doesn’t make people more imoral or unethical these are the exlusive realm of faith and religion.

Once again to Mr. Donaldson.

Sorry but I must strongly disagree.  I’m shocked by most of the comments made and I still don’t see how atheists are trying to impose anything on anyone. 

As I said before, atheists are not trying to impose anything; simply trying to get the U.S. back to the way the founding fathers intended.  It is the religious right who have been attempting to force their beliefs on others through the government, and that’s a fact.  Forcing a belief would be trying to get everyone to think like atheists, which is not the case.  Atheists want freedom to believe what you want...freedom for everyone.  That’s not forcing beliefs, but wanting freedom, and not forced religion.  I find it amusing that many religious people feel as if they’re a minority and that secularism is being forced upon them.  Hmmm, who changed the pledge of allegiance to include the words “under god?” Who changed it so as to have “in god we trust” on currency?  Who is forcing, through politcal means, to stop gay marriage, to stop stem cell research, and to make abortion illegal?

That is the religious attempting to force their beliefs on others.  What I want is the freedom to choose, like I’m sure most other atheists and secularists.  Freedom to CHOOSE...NOT FORCE any particular belief or action upon someone.

It is the secularists who wish to revert the country BACK to its secular roots.  It is the religious who have converted the country to a predominantly christian nation, with the pledge of allegiance, and even back in the earlier 1900’s banning evolution for time from being taught.

Many religious claim that they’re the repressed minority but think about this.  In the U.S. christians are the majority...as of right now many religious people are (unfortunety) the majority in the white house. It’s Bush’s plan that gives millions of everyone’s tax dollars to religious orginizations with his Faith Based Initiative, which is unconstitutional.  How people can claim they are a minority and are being repressed is an insane claim.

The claims about if there is not god there is no reasons to do good, and there is no fear of death, and everyone can do what they want, is a very common claim but it’s not based on facts.

There are facts that support an evolutionary origins of morality, which can be seen in chimpanzees, which are our closest relatives.  They have no religious beliefs, yet they care for one another, and live in groups as humans do, that are like families.  It’s been shown that humans have an aversion to killing another human being.  There is a book called On Killing which has done studies of many wars and it’s been proven that on the battlefield men are prone to hesitate to pull the triger and kill his fellow man.  Now of course there are those people who would be considered psychopaths and will kill with no hesitation, but the majority of soldiers hesitate to kill, even when their lives are on the line. 

Besides on an evolutionary note, it would be a bad trait, would it not, if man was prone to kill his own species...there would be none left!  Other animals also share this instinct including snakes and lions, etc.  When they fight, they will not kill one of their own species, though again as with humans, sometimes it does happen.

Look, I wholly agree that Stalin was an evil person, and was an atheist, but that doesn’t mean anything… the point is, did his atheism CAUSE him to act as he did?  There is no evidence to support that idea.  Horrible people come from all kinds of backgrounds...I could just as easily say that Charles Manson (a.k.a. jesus christ) inspired his followers to kill eleven people; a devout christian, Dena Schlosser, who claims that she cut off her baby’s arms for god; the muslims who flew the planes into the world trade center wanted to kill ‘infidels’ because the koran says so; the inqusitions were brought about because the bible says to kill nonbelievers, and they truly felt that these people they were buring alive at the stake, that they were saving their souls and doing them good!  These things were done BECAUSE of their religious beliefs, not becuse they are crazy people, with maybe an exception for Manson and Schlosser, though I’m not wholy familiar with their backgrounds.

Many of the wars currently going on, as well as in the past, are religious wars. One group of people attempting to kill the others BECAUSE THEIR BELIEFS tell them that they are gods true chosen people, and the others just just infidels.

Also, just because, let’s say, there were no commandments, no god’s law....we also have man made laws, which is what we live by, not a supposed god’s law.  Yes there is no killing, no stealing, which are part of the ten commandments, but those laws are universal, and are good for an orderly society no matter where they come from.

But I must ask you, and every christian this:  Do you work on sunday?  Did you talk back to your parents when you were a teenager?  I bet all of them would answer yes, and do you know what “god’s law” says to do about these infractions?  Kill those who break them; stone them to death. 

So according to your own “god’s law” we should stone you to death, and everyone else who breaks these rules, which can be found in Deuteronomy 21:18-21 and Exodus 31:15.

Just as with man made laws, and “god’s law” people break them, yet god doesn’t seem to kill anyone who works on sunday.  But man made laws have created punishments to inforce these laws.  I abide by the laws that have been set forth.  But more importantly I don’t rape, or steal, or kill because that would infringe upon another’s natural rights, not because I’m afraid of jail.  I want to be kind to others, so they are in turn kind to me..hopfully anyway.  Some people are just jerks. 

But that proves my point, modern society doesn’t follow most of god’s laws in the first place, and as I said in the last post, in places where religious people are the minority, they in fact have some of the lowest crime rates.  Maybe you should take that fact into consideration.  But a very telling statistic is this: In “red” states where the majority are conservitive christians, it’s been shown that out of the twenty-five cities with the lowest rates of violent crime 62 % are in “blue” states, while 38 % are in “blue” states.

The 12 states with the highest amount of burglary are “red.” Of the 22 states with the highest murder rate 17 are “red” states.

If belief in god and religion caused less violence in crime the stats, you would think, would reflect that yet where there is a high influence of religion, the violent crime rates are higher.

More stats for you taken from Sam Harris’ Letter to a Christian Nation :  “Countries with high levels of atheism are also the most charitable both in terms of the percentage of their wealth they devote to social welfare programs and the percentage they give in aid of the developing world. The dubious link between Christian literalism and Christian values is belied by other indiced of social equality. Consider the ratio of saleries paid to top-tier CEO’s and those paid to the same firms’ average employees: in Britian it is 24:1; In France 15:1; Sweeden 12:1; in the U.S. , where 80 % of the population expects to be called before god on judgemenet day, it is 475:1”

But something is very telling about many religious people.  Many of them say right out that if there was no god they would in fact kill and rape and steal. Now, what does that say about that person’s morals?  I sure wouldn’t consider them to be good people, if they were ONLY being good just to please their imaginary god.  I’d rather people be good because it’s the right thing to do.  Period.

I’m sorry but your claims just don’t stand up to the facts. 

Thank you.

33676 - bruce donaldson.

Thank you for that comment.

Thank you for showing your true ignorance and stupidity.

Communism is a religion.  Religion does not need a god.  It merely requires acceptance of “teachings”, wether or not these have any validity in the “real” world.  Communism reliese on accepting the writings of Karl Marx, and being a communist requires that you accept these as “truth”, just as being a christian requires that you accept the validity of the bible, and being a muslim require believing the validity of the koran.  Communism, Nazism, Judeo-Christian-Islam, all require that we accept the “teachings” and texts to be “truth”, that we cannot question them.

I know that atheism is not religion.  All the deluded christians claiming other wise will not make it one.

The history of the Abrahamic religions in particular is littered with the dead, the tortured, the abused, the persecuted - the followers of those religions in spite of their professed belief in “god”, and his “moral inspiration”, have felt and continue to feel justified in killed the “other” and “un” beleiver.

Why don’t the self professed born again christofasists actually follow the example and teaching of thier messiah?  Why are they the most bitter, hateful, intolerant, and spiteful people?  They are so ignorant that they fail to see that the pride they feel in professing their faith is nothing more than self agrandizing huberis that according to their own faith teachings will ensure nothing more than their entry in to hell.

But don’t get me wrong, I am not singling out the christians - they get no special disdain from me.  I don’t respect any religious belief, for me having religion is a sign of fear, stupidity, and weakness.  Religion has never done any one any good.  It has only been the cause of misery, privation, subjugation, pain, and death.  Religion is anti rational, illogical, and at the very least silly and very worst stupid.

All religion is fanatical, all religious followers assume they are following the “right” path, and that those who belong to some other faith or no faith are “wrong”, and must be “saved”, and if that is impossible - well then they must surely be agents of “evil” and let’s just kill them.

Let’s have a look at the bible - that paragon of hate, mysogny, racism - having read it several times, I can only rationaly come to the conclusion that if the god of the bible does exist, then he does not merit worship or respect.  The god of the bible is a hateful, spiteful, petulant, super being - who tortures and pains us for his own ammusment or worse for no reason at all.  He is far more like the Satan we are told inhabits the neather regions.

If HE is perfect why is the world so imperfect?  If HE is perfect why is there evil? Death? Hunger? War? Disease? and the host of other plagues?

The god of the bible is an asshole.
The god of the bible is only worthy of our contempt.

The religious are always afraid of the truth, of reason, of rationality, of logic for these are incompatible with faith and belief.

Fact of the matter is this: morals and ethics are social constructs, they are products of social evolution they are not divine.  Religion, theology, ontology, cosmology are social constructs first to explain the unexplainable, second to justify unjust and inequitable social systems that allow a priveledged few to grow fat and lazy off the labour of the many.

What exactly do the world’s religious leaders do? produce?  Let us have a look at the pope - he has always bean paid always had a place to live/sleep/eat yet has never had a real job - yet he feels qualified to tell us how to live.  Or how abour Billy Graham?  What has he actually done besides provide trite words to live by? He too has never “worked”, I would be surprised if he has ever broken out in a sweat other than when the airconditioning broke down.  Yet he too feels he can tell us lesser humans how to live.  Both of these men are no example to live by, they are users, takers, leaches, and worms.

It is truly frightening that it is men like this that are driving the political agenda.  No wonder there is so much corruption and abuse in our society.  It is these men who decide what is moral and then tell us this is what God wants.

They can take their god, their religion, their faith and shove it.

Religion as the solution to man’s ills, what a joke, it has been the cause of all of them.

Some of the thoughts expresses here seem to be at cross purposes and not always justified. Hate and ignorance can close minds and insulate them from thoughtful understanding.

Not all Christians are ignorant hate filled fundamentalists. Not all atheists are smart and upright. It is time for us to stop looking at the weaknesses of straw men and try to communicate intelligently.

Hitler used religion yet he persecuted Jews and Christians.

Many who entered this country in the 1800s came to avoid conscription into European armies that were constantly at war. Others came to escape the intolerance of state religions.

Okay guys. For Atheists to claim they aren’t religious is B.S. There is no such thing as a “true” Atheist.

Everyone is religous.

Atheists worship THEMSELVES, their intellect/minds, or their own sense of “justice.” Maybe in some cases it’s convenient to make “science” into “god.” As long as it fits their lifestyle.

I think many Atheists, like most any human, are just angry when they can’t be the one’s that make the rules. SO it becomes “imposition” when they have to submit to anyone else’s rules. Yet, it’s considered “immoral” to think differently than an Atheist--those who deny any basis for morality!

Communism is not a religion...it’s a “godless” social system that manipulates and controls the poor to keep them all comfortably numb while the leaders get fat. Like the atheists, if you threaten their sacred cow they freak out. Maybe more extreme than most atheists, they don’t just deny God, they kill or torture and brainwash those who dare to believe (okay the state is set up to be worshiped, but who is the state but the “Atheistic” leaders?). Talk about IMPOSING one’s belief on another!!! Sheesh!

As long as the people Atheists disagree with keep their mouths shut the Atheists seem to be happy. But challenge their holy ground, their sense of control and look out!

Again...go ahead be a blissful Atheist, but don’t IMPOSE your sense of justice, or whatever it is YOU accept as law, on me. “That’s your reality.”

If there is no God. There is no reason to fear death. There is no reason to fear punishment. I’d fear pain, but all I do in a Godless universe would be done to avoid pain and maximize pleasure. One can’t justifiably call me “evil” because that is just someone’s personal social construct being imposed upon me. To put me in prison assumes that I have broken some “moral” code. Everyone out of jail...you’ve really done no wrong because all the laws you broke are steeped in religious ideology...run free you victims of oppression.

WIthout God there is no reason to worry about anyone but me. Who cares that my neighbor--maybe you--is starving, or hurting, or being forced to do another’s bidding?

If there is no God, by what standard does anyone judge that anyone else is “innocent?” So there are no “victims” for anyone to whine about in the Bible. The stronger hand simply won, I guess, and there is no shame in that...if there is no God.

There would be no collective concept of innocence or guilt. How could any true Atheist feel it was right to impose their idea of right or wrong on anyone else? I guess the bigger muscles and guns win, right?

If there is no God, what does it matter that those who claim to know/represent God killed any number of anybody? (I wholly agree with you that many atrocities have been committed by religionists...but atheists have to admit to their share of the B.S. too).

With no God, who really gives a rip if genocide is being committed in Darfur as we sleep? They are just a weak people being weeded out by evolution.

I would take what I need when I need it from whoever I can get it from the easiest. Survival of the fittest would be the law. Get in my way and you may die...unless you’re quicker on the draw or I’m in an honestly Atheistic mood and have mercy on you because it really doesn’t matter what anyone thinks about anything.

Without God, “‘DO WHAT THOU WILT’ IS THE WHOLE OF THE LAW.” (If you don’t recognize the quote look up Aleister Crowley.) Intuitively most “Atheists” will deny this (if you agree with that quote above then you aren’t an Atheist, you are officially a Satanist). Why? Because all people are born with a conscience. Most people that anyone would call “well balanced” have a sense of right from wrong--justice--where does THAT innate concept come from?

If you are angry about any self-perceived injustices in this world, maybe you are the one that needs to get involved and try to force your morals on those you disagree with--those that you, for some reason, sense are doing “wrong.”
Instead of getting angry at a God you swear isn’t there and the people who believe in Him/Her/It for not doing something about it...you do it.

Because that’s really the bottom line with the majority of atheists. They are angry at God because they think He/She/It should have intervened somewhere in their pasts. Atheists seem to believe that they can do a better job at, and have more wisdom to, run the universe. Good luck.

Without God you have absolutely no universal frame of reference to complain about ANYTHING nor to argue any point. You are reduced to a relativistic, “well...take it or leave it, but what I think is this"--your own “personal” preference.

If you truly believe that there is no God that’s okay. But don’t try to use the laws and the government of the United States to impose it on me okay?

I’d like to respond to Mr. Donaldson’s comments. 

First off, yes I’m an atheist...I’m a ‘godless heathen’ according to many, but whether religious people want to live in reality or not it’s their choice.  Religion does not, and has been proven, cause morality.  I think if anything it distorts it. Take stem cell research for example.  Many christians got this banned simply because of their religious beliefs. The facts are that people spoke against it just because many feel that a soul enters the blastocyst at the moment of conception.  That’s silly.  A three day old embryo is a collection of 150 cells with no brain and no neurons, so they cannot feel, think, or sence anything.  The benifits of this research would be astounding, yet outdated and false religious teachings are halting this.

Even Reginald Finger, an evangelical member of the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices said he would oppose a vaccine for AIDS because it would encourage premarital sex, and make sex less risky.  Tell me what’s moral about that?  Millions of people die every year because of this virus, yet because of religious beliefs people want to use deadly dieases as a way to keep people from having sex.  The same goes for a vaccine for HPV, which kills about 5,000 women each year from cervical cancer, yet christian conservitives in our government resisted a vaccination program because HPV is an effective impediment to premarital sex. 

These decisions are being made not because of morality, but because of religious belief that sex is a “sin.” Please tell me when the morality of religion starts to show itself.

Plus, even in countries where the non-religious outnumber the religious there is not mass murder going on… no loss of morality. That is a sorry excuse.

Besdies, I don’t see how people can get morals from religion anyhow with the horrible treatment of women, raping, killing, the keeping and beating of slaves, and human sacrafices that are common in the bible...yes that was written in a barbaric time, but people still call it the ‘good book’, and claims that all the answers to the world’s problems are in it...I must ask these people, have they ever actually read the bible?  Of course there are good saying in the bible, such as the famous ‘do unto others....’ but I don’t see how those phrases can cancel out the many mass murders that take place within the bible (and even by god himself no less!), and the bloody history of religion with the Inqusitions and the crusades. 

This country was no founded upon christianity, in fact the Treaty of Tripoli even says “the government of the united states is not, in any sense, founded on the christian religion.” This treaty was negotiated by George Washington, and signed by John Adams.  Plus the “wall of seperation of church and state” and of course freedom of religion which is in the constitution.  Many claim that “freedom of religion” means that you can exprees or force your religion on others, yet it’s obvious from the writings of the founding fathers that they were not christians, but Deists. Jefferson, I know for sure, was a freethinker and didn’t want religion forced upon anyone...he even spoke against religion, as did Thomas Paine, and said people should decide what’s true for themselves.

Freedom of religion mean you’re free to practice whatever religion you want, but that doesn’t mean you can force it upon people, and that includes harassing congress and the governemnt to get your personal views as law, such as the abortion issue, gay marriage, and the like.  The bible claims marriage is only between a man and women, so it’s clear that these people don’t want gays to marry because it will “upset” god.  Whatever.  If two people love each other they should be able to marry...that’s what marriage is all about!

I’ll add one last thing.  It should be clear to anyone who looks at history that the nation was founded upon secular principals, and only since the christians have taken over and become the majority, have things gotten religious.  Remember this country is a melting pot of different people, religions, and backgrounds, and favors none.  That’s how this country was set up.

Who says anything is being “imposed” on you?  It’s the religious, as I’ve clearly shown, who are imposing their viewpoints upon the conuntry.

Atheists want the country to get back to its original secular roots, as the founding fathers wanted.

Atheists don’t care about religion, people can be free to practice what they want (even if it is crazy) but NOT to force their beleifs needlessly onto others.  That is why atheists must, and do, care so much about religion.

(By the way the constitution is a secular document unlike what you wrongly claim)

Thank you.

That is the problem - governments follow religions.  What pray tell atheistic dictatorships are there in world?  I see the worst squalor, disease, oppression, hate, intolerance, death in the most religious countries - Afganistan, Indonesia, Iran, China (for those who don’t know, communism is a religion).

I think you should be able to believe in what ever fairy tale lets you sleep at night, but please don’t try to impose that on me.  I ask no one to become an atheist, agnostic, or ignostic, all I ask that I be allowed to be me in peace, without having to hear the hate speach of any and all religious leaders and movements.

Yes don’t lie, cheat, steal, kill are good moral codes and are written into most contries laws, yet all people still do all those things.  They are good codes, but the problem comes when we assign where these codes come from: god? or are they a function of and result of social evolution?  I mean did god give them to moses on stone tablets, or did only those people who followed these codes survive to form human societies?  I am leaning toward the latter rather than the former.  Does this make these codes less valuable or worthy? I don’t think so.

And by the way, the USA is founded on the principle that people should be allowed to follow thier beliefs unmolested by the state, by the church, or by their neighbours.  The problem I see is that the religious, be they christians, moslems, or jews, is that they can not accept that.  And they can least of all accept that non-belief, atheism, agnostism, are valid belief choices.  They can’t accept that non and un-blievers are as moral and ethical as they are, and always case the “other” believer as a shady, evil, sexually deviant, who if given a chance will eat the religious young.

The state and the church are incompatible.  Freedom and the church are incompatible. Choice and church are incompatible. The founders knew this, they had seen it in Europe, and in fact one of the primary reasons for early migration from Europe was a desperate need to get away from single church dominated state structures that failed to meet the faith, spritual needs of a large portion of the population.

What we are seeing now is a move towards the integration of religion and the state.  This has always been problematic, and inevitably leads to oppression of the people.

Like it or not Bruce Donaldson, the founders made a diliberate choice by writing the constitution in a religiously ambiguous manner.  So that no single religous movement could claim to be the “state” religion.

This president, this shrub, even though he claims moral authority based on his born again simpleton christianity, has no problems advocating and allowing torture, and ordering underlings to kill on his authority to “protect” the American way of life.  He is a terrorist, as was Reagan, and Bush 1.  Hell even Clinton was a terrorist.  All presidents are criminals, and morally corrupt, because they lie, cheat, steal, and kill.  They do not represent your individual interests as citizens, but rather the interests of an elite wealthy over class, who don’t see thier interests tied to the fate of any single or particualar nation, or state.  Indeed this over-class will sacrifice millions of people on the altar of power and money, it will play one nation against an other, if money and profits are to be made.

The USA is an democracy? I thought it was a republic, and that the founders actually feared the power of the mob.

All governments follow somebody’s “religion” or form of morality. Otherwise there would be no law and anarchy would prevail.

Don’t murder, steal, lie, cheat… These are all morals agreed upon by most religious and moral codes. They’re written into our laws.

People of all faiths and “non-faiths” will vote according to their conscience. If the person runs for, and is elected to office, they will serve according to the religious or moral code they follow.

This is a democracy. If the people want to elect a religious President. You have to live with it. If the people want to trust an Atheist, so be it.

The Atheist comments that I’ve read and who speak up seem to ignore that, or they want to legally deny the country of that freedom.  If you want to live in a Godless country go to China or Russia, or Cuba and live in the squalor that an Atheistic dictatorship spawns. Or get off your lazy asses and run for office.

Why should I ever have to accept that atheists have their god-denying ideology written into (or interpreted as written into) the Constitution and “imposed upon me” if I can rally people that think like me together and make a government I am comfortable with?

God is dead, and hopefully his followers be they christians, jews, or muslims will soon follow him.  Then we will finally be able to remove the stain of judeochristislam facistideology from the remaining collective memory.  Yet the thing that chills my spine, is that in their effort to follow thier “god” to the after life they may take the rest of us sane people with them.

Christianity a religion of love? forgiveness? peace? please give me a break, it is a hideous hateful oppresive religion!  Any charity is simply a means to draw more vulnerable people to the fold - earning them godly brownie points.

Islam claims it is about love and peace too, but the actions of it’s followers speak louder than the lying propaganda of the islamic appologists here in the west.  It seems that every time something happens that offends the delicate religious sensibilities of the followers of Mohamed, a murdering - child raping - thief, they immediately start rioting, burning and killing.

At least the Jews don’t make any claims about love and peace and forgiveness on behalf of thier god, they at least admit he is a vengfull petulant super being who enjoys toying with their pain.  That being the case, maybe Satan is the real loving god?  May be he is a victim of hateful lying propaganda spread by the real “Satan”?

Just have a good look at the “religious right”, take a long hard look at the fundamentalist christians, at the righ wing catholics (yes there are lefty catholics), at the arabo-facist muslims, at the zionist jews, not a kind forgiving soul among them.  They can’t get over the fact that their religions are not about life, but about death.  They are death cults, hell bent on making sure we all get to meat their maker.  Hate, hate, hate, is all they seem to promote while claiming that they are promoting tolerance and love, yet seemingly incapable of forgiveness.

They talk about religious freedom, when what they really want is the freedom for us all to be god worshipping fair tale believing automatons, that work hard and give generously to support the autocratic mysoginistic homophobic priesthoods that tell us all we are doomed to sin and will all go to hell.  They hate every one who doesn’t believe as they do, but will work with the other “biblical” faiths, believing that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”.  And thus again show the inner hypocracy and deciet they believe follow and practice.

These religious zealots, these christian nation, zionist facist, islamo jihadists, are doomed to be forever fighting the cause for a god who does not give a rats ass about the universe, the world, or the people who live here.  They will forever try to impose the imperfect idea of the perfect god being on those who just want to be free, kind and who want to forgive and wantto tolerate with compassion and understanding.

But no, we have to see them foaming at the mouth, eyes filled with hate over and over again preacing hate, intolerance, revenge, and death.  To them I say, die already and please take your god with you.

Fuck them all I say, and fuck your god too.

Armies of compassion?  I guess that is who we sent to Iraq and Afganistan to bomb, torture, and kill.  How kind of us! LOL

But then again, the muslims make all sorts of claims about thier religion how it is the be all and end of belief, yet every single nation that is “Islamic” is a shit hole, a hell for women, unblievers, etc.  Not a single “islamic” nation has anything that resembles a functioning independant judicary, not one has a trust worthy police, not one has democracy of any kind, not one has religious freedom, in every single one the government is corrupt and resorts to violence to stay in power.  And unless we keep the christo-facists in check this is where we in the western liberal democracies are headed, be prepared to say good bye to the freedoms you believed you had.  Soon we won’t even have the illusion of rights.

One of life’s ironies for one who is currently represented by Katherine Harris in congress was her explaining “separation of church and state is a lie” to a Baptist group. They loved it. The irony: that phrase comes from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to reassure the Baptists in RI.

It is sad to realize that religious freedom means so little to so many.

Regarding your comment: “Comment #32570 by FreeMan  on  10/23  at  8:54 am

Regarding the comment(29739) from “Mad As Hell”. Nice history lesson on religion, but you missed something critically important regarding Catholic power in America. We now have 4 “papists” sitting on the Supreme court, arguably the most powerful branch of our system of checks & balances.

You obviously were not payin attention during the confirmation hearings for Justice Alito. I sent emails to both of my Senators as well as all of the members of the Judiciary committe with the exception of Hatch and Sessions, since those two are so partisan they would not have cared anyway. My email told the Senators that Mr Alito would make a majority of 5 papists on the court. I also mentioned how during the 1960 the Republicans had made such a big deal out of the fact that John Kennedy was a Catholic, even though we had the option not to reeclect him in 4 years or even to impeach him if he disregarded our constitution by obeying the Pope rather than the Constitution.

We of course have no power to do that with members of the Supreme Court, as they are appointed for life or until they decide to step down. Eerily, none of the Senators responded to me nor did I ever hear this issue raised during the confirmation hearings.

I live in South Dakota which has a proposition on the ballot to overrule our state legislature in next months election. In question is whether the law which the legislature passed which would not allow abortion even in cases of rape or incest or the health of the mother. Think back to the 2004 elections when US Cardinals and even the man who is currently the Pope said that one could face excommunication from the church for voting for someone who was pro choice.

If that same pressure is put on the US Supreme Court if the abortion Bill in South Dakota is approved by the voters, will the US Supreme Court abide by the constitution or by the will of US Cardinals and the Pope? Our US Senate was asleep at the switch in that case as they have been in so many other instances during the last 6 years.

John Roberts
  (Chief Justice) Catholic
Stephen G. Breyer Jewish
Ruth Bader Ginsburg Jewish
Anthony M. Kennedy Catholic
Antonin Scalia Catholic
David H. Souter Episcopalian
John Paul Stevens Protestant
Clarence Thomas Catholic
Samuel Alito Catholic

Thank God for the religious zelots in this country.  Where would we be without them?  Why would David Zuo, or anyone, be suprised that the Republican religious right would not be interested in helping those in need, those poor and in poverty?  They’re not interested in them.  Hey those poor guys can’t even pay for the high priced gas to go in their ten year old car, to get them to the polls to vote.  That’s why the Rebublicans push tax cuts for the rich, poor folks can contribute anything.  Oh, by the way, that trickle down theory ain’t workin’, boss, heck those of us down here ain’t even gettin’ wet.  This is American!  No a Christian Nation, Jewish Nation, Buddist Nation, but a nation for all.  We offer freedom of religion and freedom from religion.  Check it out.  Those old dudes for the 1700’s wrote it down and they meant it.  Of course, The President would have to be able to read and think for himself to understand it and we all know that those abilities, like his military career, are AWOL!

Ah, thank God for those religious zelots; without them, where would we be?  Why would anyone, especially David Kuo, be suprised that all the faith based stuff would not included poverty or the poor?  Republicans know the poor can’t do them any good, heck most of them can’t afford gas to go in their tanks to get them to the polls.  That’s why tax cuts come to the rich.  Oh, by the way, that trickle down theory ain’t working, boss, we ain’t even gettin’ moist down here!  This is America.  The land for everyone.  We are not a Christian Nation, or a Jewish Nation, or a nation of any one belief.  You have freedom of religion or freedom from religion.  Check it out.  Those old dudes for the 1700’s spelled it all out.  Of course, the President would have to be able to read and to have an open mind.  Both, like his military career, are AWOL!

Regarding the comment(29739) from “Mad As Hell”. Nice history lesson on religion, but you missed something critically important regarding Catholic power in America. We now have 4 “papists” sitting on the Supreme court, arguably the most powerful branch of our system of checks & balances. The voting records of these papists have shown they consistently ignore the constitution in favor of their own religious views. They also consistently vote in favor of authoritarian abridgements to our fundamental rights under the constitution, reflecting the authoritarian beliefs of their own religion. As long as these or ANY other authoritarian religious sect or cult with an agenda hold such a plurality on the Supreme Court, our freedom, or what is left of it, remains in jeopardy.

I don’t consider myself a practicing Christian in that I do not attend church.  Although, I was raised in a Christian family and attended Sunday School and Church services until I left for college.  I think I know what Christianity is about and those who condemn all Christians or lump them all together are missing the point.  The people in the White House and those evangelicals who support their ideas are not practicing Christianity.  True Christianity, whether Evangelical, Conservative or mainstream, teaches the 10 Commandments, Jesus’s Golden Rules and other things Jesus taught, such as giving unto Caesar.  It also deals with charity and good works.

We don’t hear about the real Christians out there who are attempting to make this world a better place.  The food kitchens, the medical missionaries, the homeless shelters, the aid workers are not sexy enough to be written about and they really don’t care.  The good works are enough.  Although, those people would like their work to be recognized so there will be more attention paid to the problems they deal with.

It upsets me when we lump all those who profess to be Christian into one group.  Those who are garnering the headlines are truly not Christian.  The seem to be more interested in intolerance, hatred and fear than in making the world better.  Or, maybe, increasing your own wealth and influence is more important.

‘Leo’ writes: “What’s wrong with “religous” people trying to further their agenda?”

When their agenda is to merge religion and state, there’s plenty wrong with it, bible-brains. If you like state-sanctioned religious privilege so much, move to Israel.

Christians in the US are johnny come lately version of talibans. They all are practicing aggressive religions, turning their countries to religious states. In islamic nations, these bloodthirst fanatics are called terrorists in the US. In US, these equally bloodthirst christian lots are called faith based whatever.
Both sides claim that god is on their side but god didn’t nothing. Why you might ask, because there is no god, let alone the mighty one.

If seeing is believing, then I invite your god to show his existence in front of camera and perform one of his biblical tricks. Splitting the red sea would do, or punish the bloody christians for their reckless disregard of god’s commandment - thou shalt not kill.

What’s wrong with “religous” people trying to further their agenda. We have all manner of groups doing the same thing. Your fear of Christian political power is unfounded. I propose to you that externally it is the so-called Christians who are under attack, and the ACLU is one of Christianity’s biggest attackers. Internally the so-called Christians are under attack by the trash we call entertainment. Just look at the news, or see what your local government school is teaching our children. I say “so-called” Christians because the divorce rate, midnight internet porno addiction, and other various self-indulgent behaviours are just as high among Christians as they are among non Christians. Writers point to this or that as proof of their point, but in the end, it all depends on how they want to slant their writing. Americans need to THINK for themselves, but we wont, we are more interested in our self-indulgent lifestyles. America, slowly and inexorably is sliding into a moral abyss. In this, the radical Muslims are right, but they are wrong if they think to change mankind by force. The real jihad is within each mind. As for the world hating America, who cares. We have the biggest house on the block and drive the nicest cars - our neighbors will always be jealous of us.  When our house cathes on fire, our neighbors will be overtly sympathetic, while covertly enjoying our problem. Our house will catch on fire.

Nice to read your contrition, Ellen. I hope it makes you feel better.

Ellen: It’s not just separation of CHURCH and state. It’s separation of RELIGION and state.

I wish American Jews, both Democratic and Republican, who demand that American devote itself religiously to Israel’s welfare, at grave expense to our own interests, would remember that the SYNAGOGUE also has no place in American governance.

We are constantly being told that Israel - which not only has an officially privileged RELIGION, but an officially privileged RACE as well - “shares our values”. American Jews should not be surprised that this boomerangs back on our own culture in the form of an ever-increasing disrespect for the proper separation of church and state among America’s Christians.

I mean, Israel’s a paragon of virtue, right? So if religious/ethnic preferentialism is fine for them, why isn’t it fine for us?

Think about it for once, sanctimonius Ellen.

It’s good to see there is so much religious tolerance, as seen by these posts, unless you’re a Christian, of course...as seen by these posts.

Are you so naive to think that Dr. King didn’t care about election results? Or do you think he was that naive?

Knowing the sentiment, my perception is that Christians see Kuo as a Democratic Dupe, who, if he truly cared about the issues in his book, would have written them much sooner instead of waiting to be lumped into--and forgotten with--the other October surprises.

As for poverty, I’ve never been involved in a church which didn’t put aside a good deal of money for the poor. And the tithe is a way of life for most Christians, whether it goes to their church or another ministry of their choice.

I believe the first Amendment, giving us that valuable Freedom of Religion as well as Free Speech, does not at the same time take away anyone’s right to hold office or inhibit their political opinion based on their religion. Perhaps in the future Democrats may want to look into the matter of limiting the free speech of religious people, but until that time, ironically enough, they have nothing to say on the matter.

Thank you, Ms. Goodman.  After Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Newt and the guys finished with using it I refused to fly a flag.  Until 9/11, when I got it out again.  And then put it away after we invaded Iraq.  (I still put flag stamps on my letters upside down...not that many people understand the reason.)

I have been going to church for almost 60 years now, just about my entire life, and this crowd has made me uneasy about calling myself a Christian lest someone think I’m “one of them.” There isn’t an earthly punishment severe enough for them, so I don’t even want anyone to try.  I’ll leave it to the God they profess to follow, and karma which, as we all know, can be a BITCH.  I think they’ll be facing “karmageddon” myself.

The 800 pound Gorilla in the room is that religios organizations in this country actually have more right than secular ones.

The Problem with faith-based programs is one of who decide which religious groups are worthy of funding? This administration only funds evangelical groups.

In the late 1400’s, a priest, ENRAGED at the corruption within the Church (and there was only one Church in Europe) found himself unable to affect change in that church. He saw indulgences being sold, the papacy as a measure of political power, and priests violating all their own rules.  He set out to re-define what it means to be a Christian, looking for purity in spirit and a personal relationship to the deity.

For this, Martin Luther was vehemently condemned, excommunicated, threatened with Huss’s fate--burning at the stake and those who followed him were forced into a lengthy, bitter and bloody war, solely because the established church wished to retain power and privilege.

Today, in America, it’s not the Catholics with the power and privileged access to the highest seats of government (the Catholics have their own recent woes), but the fundamentalist Right.  They’ve been double-crossed twice in the last coupoe of weeks, by learning they were “kooks” inside the WH, and by Mark Foley and his protectors.  But that’s OK because they, in their turn have double crossed their followers.

Yet they turn on and attack the modern “Luthers” who would civilize them, make’em human.

KUDOS ELLEN !!!
Very well put and ‘it’s about time’. While Bush is ‘protecting us’, the tentacles of his poisonous web of deceit are alienating us from the rest of the world. The tainted christian right is basking in the glory [and dollars] of having a deep-pocketed president back thier intent to convert the entire world to christianity. That will be our [US] downfall in the upcoming worldwide Jihad.
Denis S

I am fed up with these Christofacists!!!!