They stole the last two elections folks and if that’s a conspiracy theory then I think we need to revisit 9/11: Inside Job—another conspiracy theory.  I give up trying to convince Americans on these blogs of the obvious.  If you can look at those buildings falling on 9/11 (especially building 7 which was not hit by a plane) and if you have only spent a little time on the internet watching some of the films (one of which by the Jersey Girls is very good) and still believe your lying government, then I say, you deserve the government you’ve got.

I have high regard for your comments but somehow you has missed the big story. There is all around data that seems to be ignored. Briefly, the GOP has stolen election after election, even in California let alone Ohio, Florida and Georgia. The case for this accusation can be found in the “Washington Spectator” story by Mark Crispin Miller in the Oct. 15, 2006 issue. But there have been stories raised by dozens of reporters, academics and good government organizations but they have been dismissed as “the latest conspiracy theories.” (LA Times). Between control of the elections by Republican Secretaries of State and the GOP pushed electronic voting machines, It gets easier to do as they go along. Can anybody trust an election where there is no verifiable paper trail and recounts are meaningless?

RE: Comment #32943

Wow Neil. You took a post of mine where I told you how I truly feel as an American, and how I think, IMO, that other conservatives feel about what you call dissent, and from all that you’ve decided that I’m “a disgrace as a human being”?? That’s amazing. Does that work with everybody you disagree with? How was what I wrote any worse than what people like you have to say about our President? You talk about respecting others that disagree with you and then when someone comes up with a different opinion than you and say that they think that what you are saying is wrong, they become hate-mongering hacks. There was nothing in my post that suggested hatred of you or other libs, can you say the same about your post? You’ve used the terms “hate-mongering hack”, “racist speech”, and “your kind”, as if someone that dares to disagree with an elitist liberal such as yourself would just have to belong to some sort of subculture. All you forgot to throw in was “homaphobe”, “sexist”, and “neo-con”. Guess you were just saving them for later, huh?

Here’s the problem Neal my boy. You say that I’ve suggested a pattern of behavior/speech from liberals and Democrats, and you’re absolutely right. Just look at 99% of the posts on this thread. You ask if I care that it divides us and makes us weaker to our enemies, and yet that was the very point I was making in my post!! Don’t you care that the posts on this thread are all about dividing us and making us weaker? What have you read here that has anything to do with us drawing closer together as Americans? All I’ve read so far, and your post is the prime example, is that America is a bad country. We’re in the wrong about everything. George Bush is an evil man and Republicans steal elections. Bush only wanted to go to war because Republicans want to kill people. It’s all about oil. Good economic data during Democrat administrations means that there is a booming economy and the country is in great shape. Good economic data during Republican administrations means absolutely nothing because it’s not a true indicator of whether or not the economy is doing good. Huh?? Can you point to the post that is about bringing us together and making us stronger to our enemies? I must have missed that one.

This whole thread is replete with posts from liberals trashing Bush, the war, and America. Someone gives you a different opinion, and they become chickenhawks who need to enlist if they think the war is so great. That’s like me saying that if you think high taxes are so great, then maybe we should only raise taxes on liberals/Democrats. Gosh, I love how liberals like you cry out about free speech being respected, and then call someone who exercises that right names because what they say doesn’t agree with what you say. For the record, I’ve served my country for three years in the Army. I’m very proud of that service, even if it wasn’t in wartime. Not even in one of the multitude of screwups that Clinton deployed us to.

Finally, there wasn’t one part of my post that said or even suggested you and other liberals didn’t have the right to speak your minds and post whatever vitriolic, bitter, and hateful type of things that you wanted. I would never say that you libs should keep all that hate inside and just let it build up. Better to let it out before it explodes and you throw your decaf mochachino latte in someones face. I respect your right to have an opinion different than mine. BUT, I do not have to respect that opinion. Good evening GENTLEMEN!! (insert sarcasm here)

Let’s assume there are 100 people who live in a particular area.  90 are employed and 10 are looking for work.  That means there is now 10% unemployment.

Let’s assume that 5 of these people cannot find work, they are so frustrated that they give up looking for paid employment and start doing volunteer work.  So now we have 90 working and 5 looking. That reduces the unemployment rate to about 5% even though there are still only 90 people working.  5 out of 95 is about 5%.

My point the unemployment rate figures do not really reflect the labor situation in this country anymore.  It does not account for too many factors.

Of course the Democrats will stay the minority party. The in-your-face reason I can say that with complete confidence is that the vote count is already rigged and is unstoppable now. So what do you think you can do about that?

People here to bash Americans must think the last two Presidential elections here were fair and square. Just like the monkeys that support the Disastermonkey-in-cheif do. And you’re just as susceptible to the media’s ability to control your perception as much as FAUX NEWS watchers are. You’d have to be. It’s not like the Aussie’s are in love with John Howard. Same with Tony Blair. This place is becoming a huge ass banana republic. But it’s not like young muslims are stalking our police, firefighters & paramdics in the streets…huh, France?

#29697 - Janie

Janie, you’re dreaming.  When the Republicans win an election you call it a conspiracy and I am sure if the Democrats win you’ll call it fair.

The Democrats owned the media for many years.  Elections in various states were “called” early thus preventing many Republicans to vote.  Now, because of new laws in place, no news network can “call” an election until the polls close.  That’s fair.  The Voters News Service (VSN) who is funded by the three major news networks (NBC, CBS,ABC)NOW has to be honest.  Too bad.

America is definitely a crazy nazi rogue war criminal nation with nukes and obsessed with greed and corruption. Look at actual true history,not american propaganda.
The world should boycott and embargo anything american,maybe the arrogant insane bully would take notice and change for the good of mankind,but I doubt it….KARMA will come to america anyway.

Poor Americans with their 15 minute attention spans, thinking that Bush is to blame for everything bad that has happened and will happen in this world and wanting a war to end in 2 hours—just like a Hollywood movie!! Of course Bush is to blame for WTC I, the African Emabassy Bombings, Waco, OK City Bombing, the Cole, and of course 9/11 because, after all, it did “happen on his watch!!”

Oh to go back to the good old days when Amazon.com was worth $300/share when the 401K was growing without bound and presidents fornicated with with 18 year old interns in the oval office! Poof! What happened to “the new economy??” Darn, back to reality! The reality is that Amazon.com is Amazon.bomb. The “new economy” was really the tulip economy propped up with funny accounting. And perhaps it’s better to keep an eye on Osama than on Monica’s lips!

I must profess not to understand the mind of an American liberal. The liberal uses words like “logic” and “reason”  as if only they truly possessed all the answers to all the riddles of this world. This world that is but a speck of sand in a vast universe. This world that we humans will inhabit for but an instant in the sands of time.

George Bush is surely not the devil, nor is he without flaw. He is human and will make his mistakes. He has reacted to 9/11 by striking at those that committed the deed. He has also struck at Iraq and the resources of terrorism are now focused on Iraq & not at the homeland of the US. Were there WMD in Iraq? Probably not, but who beyond Sadam Hussein really knows? Was the Iraq war sold by a bate (WMD) & switch (democratize the middle east) scheme?? Perhaps. Were we mislead by our leaders? Perhaps & perhaps not.

Are the problems in America systemic. Probably. Have we seen our better days. Probably.

Re: Comment #32451 by Patrick A. Baker on 10/22 at 9:02 pm

Patrick, making charges like that against fellow Americans without evidence is disgraceful political terrorism. OH, there are always outlier oddballs who think whatever, but you clearly insinuate a general pattern among liberals/Democrats. Here we have it: an alleged member of the “responsibility crowd” taking a botched invasion that we know really was botched, and by whom, into a fetid charge of the other side hoping for loss just to get the bungler out of office. It is the same sort of sewage as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It divides us and makes us weaker to our enemies; do you care about that? Almost all of us are sickened by the incredible damage this bungling has done to our country, and punks such as yourself have to score the tawdriest of political entrail-spattering with it. I would think even Karl Rove is not that utterly base.

I respect those who think we should have gone in and stay even now, as well as those who think we should never have, and should leave now. (I would have forgiven the initial errors if it had turned out well.) But I cannot respect hate-mongering hacks such as yourself.

Patrick, you are a disgrace as a human being, and above all, a disgrace as a US Citizen. BTW, if you think Bush’s adventure was such a great idea, and care so much about us not being defeated there, why don’t you go over there and pitch in? Are you a chickenhawk, like so many of your beloved Republican “warriors”? (If you have, fine, but that doesn’t excuse the rest of it….)

As for liberals suppressing dissent, it is another idiocy to equate racist speech for example (derogation of others not about conduct) with your kind’s hatred of criticims of misconduct of leaders and policies. I can only hope that the number of brazen limbiciles such as yourself are inadequate to keep Republicans in power for long.

I must say delusions are rampant here…

“2) The tax cuts have helped to produce a really remarkable economy with extremely low unemployment and even lower inflation numbers (BTW, can any of you guys tell me how you all and the media managed to take such a great economy and spin it as another “Great Depression”?? You deserve a lot of credit for that one)”- #31557 by Patrick

I don’t know how anyone can even claim that with a straight face. For SO many reasons.

1) Unemployment is not the only measure of an employment markets strength. Many “Full Time” Jobs are jobs that are for corporations like Wal-Mart that counts 28 hours as full time.

2) The jobs need to be a decently paying job or they are a detriment to the emp market. 28 hours x $10 hour (avg Wal-Mart “full time” wage…note this average includes their management) = 280 a week before income and payroll taxes 280x 52 = $14,560 BARELY over single person poverty level.

3) Service industries are often the first to get the squeeze (less disposable income = less restaraunts, etc). Let me tell ya, they are. I ran a restaraunt, my gf works in two. I can tell ya from the business side and the tip earner side it is WAY off. My gf will be lucky to make 2/3 what she did last year for equal work. That was down every year for the last 4 or 5 by at least 10% each year as well. She will likely barely make it above poverty level for 2 JOBS!

4) The dow as a measure of stock markets is pointless it’s a 30 issue average. There are some 3000+ issues in Nasdaq and NYSE alone.

5) Our countries financial footing is HORRIBLE.
Deficits growing out of control while simultaneously services are dwindling to nothing.

Now before you lambaste me as a liberal or dem. I’m not. Both of our parties represent different factions of the U.S. business machine. Sometimes they both represent certain interests (ATT to just name one massive “no lose” donors).

Also, In Pat’s defence he is correct about Dem’s playing just as immorally as Rep’s in elections (they just aren’t as good at it).

Is there an answer? Are ANY human governments free of corruption or unabashed self interest?
How bout a government of just referendum style law making? We can’t even get people to vote once every 2 years for public officials. Can we count on people actually voting for laws? Can we count on them to actually take the time to be informed on those issues? All those complicated issues? I think not. Perhaps a new constitution? Written by? Politicians? Referendum? Business? Religion?

    B

Spinoza asserts that “The right wing is making an all out attack on reason, logic and evidence.”  I would agree but reply that this is only part of the overall proposition.  Rather, the entire political process is an attack on reason, logic, and evidence;  and it has been documented as such for a very long time (at least as far as Plato’s documentation of the teachings of Socrates).  The political process is fundamentally a process of rhetoric, and rhetoric has never been bound to the articulation of reason, logic, and evidence.  The only real difference these days is that the discourse of rhetoric has gotten far more shallow, since shouting matches tend to be better at selling advertising time on television than the more colorful uses of rhetoric of the past.  Nevertheless, to go back to the scholastic TRIVIUM, wherever politics is concerned, rhetoric trumpts logic.

So, Spinoza, do you really thing you are going to resolve this situation with a revolution?  I cannot help but recall an anecdote of G. K. Chesterton, who claimed to have once discussed politics with a French farmer who concluded that, “the problem with revolution is that, when it is over, you are back where you started.”  Such are the semantics, if not the politics, of the concept of “revolution!”

I find that, the worse things get, the more I take refuge in the writings of Isaiah Berlin.  Berlin rejected all ideologies (having lived through too many of them with disasterous consequences) but also recognized that HAVING AN IDEOLOGY AT ALL is one of the things that MAKES US HUMAN.  Consequently, the best we can do is engage in coversations over our disagreements, without ever expecting that those disagreements will be resolved.  Unfortunately, Berlin has less to say about resorting to force when the conversation dies, as is the case in Darfur;  but I would still argue that it the inability of American authorities to converse that have gotten us into our current mess on both national and global stages.  Thus, even if there WERE a revolution, its aftermath would be more likely to follow the path of the French Reign of Terror than that of the American Constitutional Convention.

Scott Cregar writes erroneously when he claims FDR declared war on Germany. Hitler, in one of the great blunders of World War II, declared war on the United States! In a television interview before his death, historian Stephen E. Ambrose, related how Hitler did this without even consulting his advisors and played right into the hands of the Allies by bringing the “sleeping giant” into the fight. The great question amongst historians is, absent Hitler’s declaration of war would the United States entered the hostilitis in Europe?

A new book by Mike Byron explains the links between corporate personhood, political corruption, religious fundamentalism, creeping global fascism, global warming, and increasingly vicious weather. The book is “Infinity’s Rainbow: The Politics of Energy, Climate, and Globalization.”

Byron’s webpage is: http://www.michaelpbyron.com/

Patrick:  Yes, that is a good point; I didn’t say whether or not I saw similarities between FDR and Bush.  I’m sure there must be some.  However, I think dissimilarities must outweigh the similarities.  Let’s compare arguments that are based on whatever facts we are able to cite from newspapers or other usually reliable resources.  I challenge you to list and document 10 non-trivial similarities between the Bush and FDR administrations.  Independently, I will list and document 10 non-trivial dissimilarities.  We will publish our lists simultaneously to this forum—a week from today at noon.  If my challenge that relies on facts (not simply name calling, sweeping accusations, and/or personal attacks) seems like too much work or too boring, just say so; and we can drop the issue.  Have a good day!

Yes, FDR let Pearl Harbor happen. They had the codes. They needed an attack to get us into WWII.
Just like Bush & Co. and 9/11. Both atrocious.

As for terrorists, more Americans get hit by lightning than die at the hand of terrorists (n = 300). Well, that was before we got into a quagmire in Irag. And not only was there no connection between 9/11 and Iraq, the FBI admitted in June ‘06 that there is no connection between 9/11 and Osama bin Laden. If there had been a connection, we could have extradited him (the Taliban offered, if we could come up with any evidence).

Bush and Co. patently lied about all the reasons to go to war in Iraq. For that matter, they lied about why we went to war in Afghanistan. It wasn’t to get bin Laden. It was to get the Taliban out of the way so that poppies could be grown again, and gas pipes could be laid down (both things the Taliban was against).

So you think we should be like sheep and not question anything? I bet you’re on the gov’t payroll. Being a patriot means questioning your government. “Eternal vigilance is the price of liberty” (Jefferson).

I can’t speak for Scott Thomas, but I think that what he means is that one day your so called “dissent”, will be seen for what it really is. Liberals like you aren’t just saying that they disagree with the war or the way that it’s being fought. If that was the case, then that would be dissent. When you have become invested in the defeat of your own nation, when you actively root for the defeat of your own nation and openly side with the enemies of our country simply because the president is of the wrong political party, then IMO, that is more than dissent. You see, most conservatives know something that most liberals will never admit. And that is we are a good country. We are not always right, but we always strive to be. That the enemies we fight right now, were enemies of this country long before Bush, and will be enemies long after Bush. They don’t care which political party you or I belong to and would slit your liberal throat just as quickly as my conservative one. You talk about suppressing dissent, and yet when have liberals ever been tolerant of dissent? When have they ever rested easy with the thought that other Americans may have differing ideas than theirs? Whenever it has looked to liberals like a majority of Americans have come to hold a different viewpoint from the one they have held, they have sought to demean that veiwpoint and make people think there was something wrong with them for holding it in the first place. Liberals are very free with calling people racists, homophobes, or sexists at the first hint of “dissent”. Why don’t you ask Hillary and Bill what they think of people who “dissent” from their viewpoint.

I guess what really discourages myself and most conservatives when we read the drivel that is written on liberal blogs is that it almost seems to be written by someone from another country. I mean, you guys do know that you guys are Americans, right?? That you can hold differing viewpoints, but this is a great country and we’ve got enemies out there that want to kill us regardless of political affiliation, and you guys can only attack Americans?? How is that just dissent? How can you see the danger out there and yet only care about getting temporary power back in Washington and to hell with what happens to the country? Can you imagine what would have happened in this war if liberals had simply fought terrorists with the same zeal and hatred that they use against other Americans who disagree with them??

BTW, you said that comparing Bush to FDR was an “unusual” arguement, but it’s also one that you didn’t answer. Is what he said true or not, in your opinion? Did FDR not do things in the course of fighting a war that you personally, as a liberal and an American, would find beyond the pale?

Scott:  So ... What’s your point?  That Bush is more like FDR than he is like Truman?  That seems like a unusual argument.  Also, are you saying that because I am a liberal and a “sympathizer” (not a fan of Bush?), I am in danger of being one of the first to go (= disapperared?).  You win.  I accept the fact that there are paranoid individuals, driven by fear, hate, and feelings of their own inadequacy, who would like to silence (kill?) liberals.  I hope you do not applaud political killings simply to suppress expression of ideas (like my being critical of what Bush has done as a president) you don’t agree with.  Do you?  If we equate dissent with treason that is punishable by death, are we living in a free country which operates under a system of laws—or in a murderous totalitarian state?  Which do you prefer?

More to worry about.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1927554,00.html

Thanks for a great laugh…liberals crack me up! You guys haven’t a clue. I could almost hear the black helicopters in the background. Read up on FDR, he did so many things that you would probably die from hearing. Secret tribunals, executions, suspension of the writ of habeas corpus, rounding up innocent civilians and imprisoning them for years. Declaring war on Hitler and Germany even though they were not a direct threat to us…the list goes on and on. It was a war that we had to win at all costs, just like this one. If you don’t wake up you will be the first to go…the sympathizers always are!

Re: Comment #32099 by Thomas Manaugh

Brilliant, Thomas.

I would add one thing:

Did Truman kill 3,000 of his own people?

Truman was a reactionary, but not as evil as Bush.

Bush wins the worst president ever reward.

Both the Republican and Democratic Parties are reactionary which if you read Molly carefully makes that point.  She also makes a profound point:  When the Repugnants call a liberal democrat an opponent of social security it does more than turn political dialogue on its head.

It purposively makes politics nonsense. People don’t know where they stand. They don’t know right from left and I have been forced to read obstensibly leftists backing weird right wingish conspiracy theories.

People think carefully about the context and history of ideas—-and think clearly based on ideas of logic, reason and evidence. Before accepting something ask: does it make sense?  And yes this goes for me as well as anyone else.

The right wing is making an all out attack on reason, logic and evidence, we must fight back.

Molly, as usual, you are absolutely right! I wish you weren’t, but there’s NOT going to be a Democratic “tsunami” as some are predicting. Between the goofy “fundies”, the scary ads, and the absolute disgrace our voting process has become, the best we’re going to get is a slight increase in the Democratic headcount in the House. Maybe we pick up a few new Senators, but I doubt it.

Living here in Florida, I wonder why I even bother to vote at all. The machines are rigged, the absentee ballots are tossed into the swamp, and the minority vote is totally suppressed. I suppose I’ll go stand in line, vote on our Diebold machines (while feeling like a damned fool doing it) and go home. Probably won’t even watch the returns because I know this criminal regime will get more validation and get to spend that not so well earned “political capital” these bums will cheat to get. We’ll get to hear our bloodless sneering VP say “We aced the midterms” again, and it will be (dirty) business as usual.
And I will continue to surf the net in hopes of finding a nice, non-U.S. owned island or country (They say Belize is nice.)to run to so I can live out my life without going completely NUTS!

Truman of Our Day?  There must be some historical facts about Truman that you could share with us that we are not aware of—the ones that make him like Bush.  I know he gave the go-ahead to drop the A-bomb on Japan.  Are you thinking that Bush is likely do that to Iran or North Korea?  That does not seem Truman-like to me because we are not at war with those countries.  Please tell me if Truman and Bush are similar in any of the following ways:
 
Did Truman attempt to sidestep applying the Geneva conventions?  Did he force through Congress legislation that erodes or kills legal protections of habeus corpus and against evidence being used in trials that cannot be challenged by defendents or that has been gathered through coercion?  Did he authorize warrantless snooping on Americans?  Did he muzzle physicians who did not agree with his religious ideas, restricting physicians in what they could tell their patients?  Did he tear down the separation between church and state?  Did he fail to rein in pork-barrel spending?  Did he favor in his tax policies corporations and wealthy families at the expense of the middle class?  Did he go AWOL when he served in the military?  Did he run up a huge federal deficit?  Did he authorize torture?  Did he authorize leaking information about a CIA operative for political reasons?  Did he put political hacks over scientists to rein-in what they could communicate about their work?  Did he put corporate interests ahead of protecting the environment and the access of Americans to healthy air and water?  Did he use public money to pay journalist to write articles that were favorable to his programs?  Did he cherry-pick information in order to mislead Congress and the American people into supporting a war of aggression? 

If Truman did not do any of ther above, please let me know what he did do to deserve being slimed by linking him with the worst president in American history.  I believe Truman deserves better.

If the Republicans win this time,then Bushes: NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND PROGRAM will truly become a reality. All our childern will be fighting in
IRAQ,IRAN and NORTH KOREA.
Bush can then name his program: NO CHILDS BEHIND LEFT.

Does it really matter? It continually amazes me that we are so polarized in this country, especially when it comes to government. How silly is it to believe that one party is better than the other, when historically both have embarassed the prncipals upon which this country was founded again and again. Futhermore, the majority of the American people continue to support a two party system that continues to fail us. Get to the real issue Molly. We are to blame, we have supported a system that is rapidly spiraling out of our control. By continually electing officials with personal agendas, by allowing ourselves to be lulled into believing that one party is better than the other, and by believing so much of what we are told by our elected officials we have sealed our own fate, the loss of justice and freedom.

Patrick,

I could not agree with you more!!! Here is to the continued control of the House, Senate and Presidency.

Even though they are from different parties historically, Bush will be remembered as the Truman of our Day…...

Here it is - the proven formula to steal a U.S. election (five easy steps):
1.)Make sure each key state has a Loyal Republican Secretary of State.
2.)Purge the voter roles only in Democratic districts, as close as possible to election day, contract with Choice Point or similar Republican based data mining firm. This will elimnate at least 10% of eligible Registered Democratic voters from the roles by “mistake” insuring a razor close election.
3.)Manipulate a few machines to switch/add Republican votes.
4.)Undersupply voting machines heavily Democratic districts.
5.)Don’t bother counting Provisional ballots that are given to pacify registered Democratic voters who suddenly find they have been purged..
PS: And don’t forget - always discredit the exit polls, they are valid in every OTHER countries elections but never in America!

With all due respect to all posters, every one of you have a reason why Republicans win elections over Democrats, and for the most part the reasons are some form of election fraud, election theft, or “gerrymandering”. I have to say, if you want to know why conservatives win elections over liberals, well, have any of you really read the stuff you guys have just written?? The whole time I was reading your posts I kept asking myself, are you people INSANE?? The Republicans steal elections? A woman who was working for the NAACP was arrested for paying a get out the vote worker with crack cocaine. He registered people like Mary Poppins and Dick Tracy to vote. Franklin County Ohio had more registered voters than there were people over the age of 18. In Lake County, a man who had been dead for more than two decades was registered on a card submitted by the NAACP. You’ve got four Democratic election workers in Milwaukee County Wisconsin, one of whom is the son of a Democrat Congresswoman, sentenced for slashing the tires of vans rented by the Republican party to take voters to the polls. The media that you guys lambast is the same one that called the 2000 presidential election for Al Gore hours before the polls closed, and yet refused to call the state of New Mexico, Iowa, and Nevada for Bush in 2004, even though he won it by thousands of votes? The Democratic party is the one fighting against any type of photo ID card that would help stop most of these types of voting fraud. Dead people, illegal aliens, and incarcerated felons consistently end up voting overwhelmingly Democrat, and yet you accuse Republicans of stealing elections? You guys just don’t get it. All you can do is demean people who disagree with you. How is that an agenda? How is that a better alternative? Republicans may very well lose this election, but you guys don’t even know why. You don’t have a clue that the reason Republicans are in trouble isn’t because the American people are rejecting their ideals, but they are rejecting the politicians who haven’t held true to those same ideals. Right now, Republicans have three things going for them: 1)They aren’t Democrats 2) The tax cuts have helped to produce a really remarkable economy with extremely low unemployment and even lower inflation numbers (BTW, can any of you guys tell me how you all and the media managed to take such a great economy and spin it as another “Great Depression”?? You deserve a lot of credit for that one)3) The fact that they are absolutely committed to protecting this country from Islamic fanatics. These three things may not be enough for Republicans to win, they have made many missteps insofar as they’ve allowed themselves to stray from the conservative principles that got them elected. But even if Democrats win, they haven’t learned a thing and have no idea of how to sustain a majority because they don’t really understand most Americans. They’ve spent way too much time listening to people who post on websites like this, and convincing themselves that everytime they lose or make a mistake, it’s a Republican trick or that they just didn’t get their message out loudly enough. The problem is, and I really do mean this will all due respect because I respect everyone’s right to have a differing opinion, even when I don’t respect that opinion, Democrats are getting their message out, and THAT is why they lose elections.

We can only pray to whatever God, god, or goddess we serve that Molly’s fears are unfounded and that history will not repeat. I’m not certain that we (America as we knew her) will survive another 2 years of the status quo.

Steve_Chicago, thanks for your service to your country. It’s more than the chickenhawks running the U.S. did. But I disagree with your statement that North Korea and Iran deserve a “can of asswhooping”.

It sounds all cool and macho to say that. But what does it mean? A ground invasion? Aerial bombardment? Either way, it means killing a lot of people in those countries. You saw that in Kuwait, I take it. Can you see that happening in another two countries? Especially when the U.S. is losing wars in two countries already?

And if you open this can of asswhooping, do you expect that the people in the bombsights are just going to stand still and let themselves get killed? You don’t think they’ll fight back, in ways you can’t predict? Like Shiites staging massive attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq if Iran is attacked? North Korea incinerating Seoul if it’s hit? Their neighbours won’t just sit idly by if the U.S. goes around killing lots ofm people, either. You think other Middle Eastern countries won’t cut off oil supplies if they see Christians killing more Muslims (even if they are Muslims of a different sect.) You think China will keep sending cheap plastic crap to Wal-Mart, and keep financing the U.S. economic system, if it sees Americans killing Asians on its doorstep?

Watch out for unintended consequences, mate. It’s a complicated world out there. You have a simplistic view of things. Fortunately, you probably don’t have any authority to open your can of A.W. What worries me is that the leaders of the U.S. are equally simple-minded, and they DO.

Hey, here is another GREAT article:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11717105 /robert_f_kennedy_jr__will_the_next_election_be_hacked< /p> Report this

I just read Kevin Tillman’s article as well.  He made me feel derilect as an American.  This article makes me feel hopeless.  Prior to the ‘04 election the conditions in Kevin’s letter already existed.  I talked extensivelly with people around me of the importance of voting for Kerry if only to show politicians that Bush’s behavior will not be tolerated.  And even if the Repubs did “steal” the election, they got enough votes to get close enough to steal it.  I have no faith in the American people.  I am resigned to either becoming a non-benevolent profiteering empire or the failure of The United States as we know it.  I will watch for a real movement and jump when I see it.  Just as Ms Ivins states that political discourse is meaningless, so are this and other electronic formats.  Lets be honest, we write these comments because they stroke our ego’s.  We are no better than those who vote for Bush because their pastor tells them to.  I pray for movements in the streets, but I don’t expect them.

Mr. Smoliar, you don’t understand. We need a revolution.

Well, the problem with a Parlamentary system is that the Executive and Legislative branches are too intertwined.  Government functions best when it is somewhat divided. Congress and the courts, being Republican dominated as well, are in the pockets of the Neo-con branch of the GOP.  I’m worried that the Diebold machines will at the very least return DeWine to the Senate in Ohio.

I would like to ask the repubs to tell me after this coward of a president leaves office what one positive thing will they have done for this country. We our now hated more than ever, We will have about 300.000 to 500.000 DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS, the deficit is breaking records, and don’t worry the price of gas is going right back up after the Nov 7th elections. I try to vote the person and not the party but with all the things that this administration has done its going to be hard for me to give my vote to a repub. These guys and their leader have no problem sending our soldiers to fight what they call a war but when it was there turn to fight they went and hid under their mothers skirt. I’m a D.A.V. and I’m not interested in sending one of my sons to fight for the Bush administration. If they have to fight and maybe give their lives I don’t want it to be for something as vain the Bush administrations war.

Molly is right. Dems won’t win unless the way our houses of government are voted for change. Still, that doen’t let others off the hook for their part in this mess. To those of you who voted for Nader in 2000, thank you so much for helping Bush win. Even with all the voting fraud that may have existed in Florida at the time, you still helped contribute to us having the worst president in U.S. history. And to Republicans who think the left is “wacky”, thank you so much for supporting a man who wants nothing more than power and would step on your back to the way to the top (Read the new book out about evangelicals and Bush). I used to be a moderate independent. Bush changed all that. I used to think about voting for moderate Repubs in my state if I liked them enough. Not anymore. You think Al Gore would have taken us into a war that was unjustified and impossible to “win”? Do you think he would have taken a budget surplus and made it into a ridiculous deficit? Would he have possibly the most corrupt and uncaring administation ever? And would he have pushed for the Constitution of the United States of America to be gutted under a legislative act so filled with tyrannical rule that it looks like something that the very same countries Bush proclaims to detest would make up? I think not. If we had a Democratic Congress I’m not sure it would have stopped Bush from doing what he has done but it would have been better than the Repub Congress rubber stamping his laws into effect. The Constituion does need to be changed, just not what Bush intends to do with it….gain more power for his horrible agenda. No more electoral college. No more two senators for every one state. No more gerrymandered districts. If its not working, it needs to be fixed. My question is, is Bush and the Repubs so powerful that they will never be out of power? I hope not. My two daughters, ages 1 and 2 need some hope for the future of our country. I will try and do my part in Connecticut (where we have a used to be Democrat turned independent but really Republican senator named Joe Lieberman) by voting Democratic. But I won’t be surprised if Repubs steal, manipulate, or just have the upper hand on Nov. 7th.

comment #30861 (Thomas Manaugh) - sorry I forgot to add the comment #. -K

Thomas Manaugh (comment #) wrote:

The disparity in results between exit polls and official counts was statistically significant to a level that removed in my mind all doubt that election results had been manipulated in Bush’s favor.  (See http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_2 004_Mitofsky-Edison.pdf, where an analysis of exit polling data led the writers to conclude that election results had been corrupted.) I agree with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., that evidence shows the 2004 election was stolen (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_t he_2004_election_stolen).

THanks for the info, which I’d like to follow up on, but the first website you cited is a dead link. Can you help me find that pdf file? “Somehow” I missed this news story!

The second link did indeed send me to the Rolling Stone article by RFK, Jr. RFK sure is brave; he has spoken about a lot of controversial topics. I wonder how long it will be before the Bush Crime Family (Cheney subsidiary) arranges for RFK, Jr.‘s plane to crash. If I were him, I wouldn’t fly at all. Look what happened to Wellstone and Carnahan (sp). Wonder which leading Dems this election cycle will die for standing up for the truth.

Are any of them standing up for the truth? Maybe Feinstein (he recommended presidential ‘censure’ last spring; big whoop.)

I am SO PISSED OFF about what has happened to this country. As you can tell, I don’t want to give up on her.

I’m very disappointed with the Bush Administration’s handling of everything post-9/11 and would like to have an alternative in place ASAP. The problem is that the Democrats have been SO hell-bent on ousting Bush while, at the same time, offering NO alternative to what is now in place. Republicans are playing the fear card, Democrats are playing the criminal card. Guess what? BOTH parties are full of crooks, which is something we should ALL be fearful of.

After reading through the article and everyones comments, I thought that I just may chime in. First off, the 2K election was a disaster long before it started. Well being from Chicago, I could see it. Look who was Gore’s campaign manager. One of the Daley boys. If anyone knows anything about corrupt elections, it’s a Daley. There’s a story that goes something like this; When it came time for Russia to hold it’s first election, years ago, Chicago thought it would help by sending it’s old ballot boxes. Well when it was all said and done, Richard Daley still won by a landslide. That being said, that election was doomed from the “gitgo”. Well that and the fact of little Jeb in Fla. Something fishy was abrew. But let’s be totally honest for a moment. Could you honestly say that either canidate was better than the other that year or the last 18 years. I DON’T TRUST POLITICIANS!! I have supported the war in Iraq, I just don’t support the way it was handled, planned and executed from beginning to end (if there is one in sight). I am neither a Repub or Dem. I truly believe that that is one of the biggest problems in this country. Too many people vote by party and not for the person. In my state we are having a race for the Governors seat in a few weeks and between the two the pickings are slim. It’s a joke! I just find it truly amazing that 3rd world countries can elect leaders in lesser time than this one with less fraud and controversy!
As I had stated earlier, I have supported the war in Iraq. I served my 4 years in the Marines, 7 months in Desert Shield/Storm, and personnaly saw first hand the carnage that Saddam and his merry band of henchmen laid on Kuwait. Some of which still wakes me up in the middle of the night. But this time around we really didn’t have a plan going in, in the middle, and for an end. While it is easy to place blame on the current sitting President, and deservedly so, look back to the prior administration and ask why 4 out of 10 Soldier, Marines, Sailors and Airmen were cut in those 8 years? Our military was cut by 40% in those 8 years. That hurt going into Afgan and Iraq. Now with Iran and North Korea asking, no begging, for a can of asswhooping to be opened up on them, we as a military just can’t supply it until we finish something off first. So for the current situation we are in, both parties are to have a big plate of blame sandwich set in front of them and forced to eat it.

My saying is “the only time you should vote for a party is when a keg is involved!”

Sorry for rambling on for so long!!!

Republicans will win because they have a plan.  It may be a sucky plan but a sucky plan beats no plan.  Some class and mature thinking would do Democrats a world of good.  Reading some of these comments is startling.  The average American adult cannot identify with that.

I agree with the the common mantra of the voters and media that both Democrats and Republicans are failing this nation but I strongly disagree that they are both the same. Lets not pass judgement on the Democrats by giving a pass to the Republicans. Have or have not this country been ran for the last 6 years by a Republican majority in all the houses? Have the Republicans held the majority in both houses for the last 12 years? Did we not hold the Democrats accountable when Newt Gingrich machine took over 12 years ago? Use your own analytical skills to figure things out—I am sure you too will begin the see that there are similarities and [more importantly] differences between these two political powehouses. Vote intelligently this election.

The first time I heard a proposal for a new constitutional convention was in the late seventies.  It came from Gore Vidal, who wanted to see a shift to a parliamentary system similar to that in the United Kingdom, basically for the same reasons that Spinoza outlined.  I agreed with Vidal at the time.  For the most part I still do, but then I remember that the participants in a new constitutional convention would probably include representatives of our legislative and executive branches (and, hopefully, the judiciary branch).  At the end of the day, I do not think I could trust those guys to come up with a better constitution than the one we currently have (and I suspect that the prevailing opinion of comments here will bear me out on this)!  Indeed, I could even see debate on a new constitution partioning the Union over strongly-held beliefs, not unlike the partition of the Indian subcontinent (and all that has ensued from that act).  So I find myself inclined to stick with the Constitution we have and focus on making things better within its framework.

Needless to say, this is not an effort for lazy minds, which is why folks like Rick Strohm will probably always be frustrated.  On the other hand the sharp minds that understand the subtleties of governance, not to mention all those other issues that Strohm raises, tend to be much better at theory than at practice.  They have doubtless read their Aristotle and can probably quote everything he said about PHRONESIS (prudence);  but that does not guarantee their ability to EXERCISE prudence if given the responsibility of reforming our constitution.  Remember, the unindicted war criminal with the most blood on his hands was one of the sharpest intellects to serve Republican administrations.  For further thoughts on these matters, check out THE RECKLESS MIND:  INTELLECTUALS IN POLITICS by Mark Lilla.

In the 2004 presidential pre-election polls favored Kerry, and exit polls also favored Kerry; but election-day vote tallies, the ones delivered by electronic voting systems, broke favorably toward Bush (away from expectations based on both pre-election and exit polls) almost exclusively in areas where (a) meaningful, honest auditing was not done or (b) meaningful auditing could not be done because of no available paper trail. 
The disparity in results between exit polls and official counts was statistically significant to a level that removed in my mind all doubt that election results had been manipulated in Bush’s favor.  (See http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_2 004_Mitofsky-Edison.pdf, where an analysis of exit polling data led the writers to conclude that election results had been corrupted.)  I agree with Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., that evidence shows the 2004 election was stolen (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_t he_2004_election_stolen).
I wish Molly Ivins would have connected the dots and said that one of the reasons not to count out the Republicans is that they have found ways to steal elections.  Her failure to point that out is a failed opportunity to shake Americans out of their state of denial that elections have been rigged and are vulnerable to more rigging in the future.

PEOPLE did you actually read Molly’s article???

  SHE was not talking about fraud. She was talking about how undemocratic the system has been from the very begining. The American constitution sucks. THE SENATE has to be abolished. It is a totally unrepresentative body. It almost guarantees that rightwingers will dominate all the time.

The House of Representatives is also totally unrepresentative.  Did you read what she said? The Democrats most always get more votes than Republicans but the Republicans win more often. READ the article and take it to heart and brain. The USA is the most right wing and backwards country in the industrial world. There is a reason for it!!!  And our voting system is also unrepresentative. We need Proportional Voting and Instant Runoff. We need a new constitution that will stop us from being a laughing stock as a pretend democracy.  Someone pointed out before but it is worth repeating. We have to abolish the American Golden rules.  No more: “those who have the gold rules” and no more “do in others before they do you in”.

I have read through these posts and want to bang my head on my keyboard.  Democrats always blame their losses on deception and fraud. Fact is your party is out of touch with reality and you have be Hi-jacked by a bunch of Libwackos who’s blind hatred of the Bush administration goes above and beyond normal. Neither party will do anything to secure the borders that is a fact plain to see It’s sad this election will be about the security of a foreign nation and not our own.

Anybody who was alive during the period 1993-2000, and during 2001-2006, and concludes that “there is not a dime of difference” between Democrats and Republicans ... well, they deserve the government they get.

I voted for Nader.  Until Americans stop looking for “charisma” and start studying, they will be doomed to electing politicians who are interested in re-election only, regardless of what they call themselves.  If the Democrats win in a landslide November 7, not much will change—there is not a diime of diference between the two parties. Global warming, universal health care, dismantling the military machine, campaign contribution reform all require intense study and understanding which our countrymen are too “busy” to mess with. Democrats talk a good game but in the morning it is the same old story.

The price of gas is now $1.89

To Bohdan yuri comment #29820
You ask who has the courage to ask bush (lower case intended)face-to-face for the truth:  I DO !!!  I actually chided the president by saying “Shame on You!” to his face.  And the next time he is town, I plan to use your words:
“The Emperor has no clothes George. The Emperor has no clothes.”

When our we going to realize that a politician be it Republican or Democrat is nothing more than a politician. A person controlled by the money.I am no longer a republican… I am an AMERICAN! I am so angry with this countries leaders. All of it is a lie! They are all controlled by the FEDERAL RESERVE BANK. It is a private institution controlled by…well, nobody is sure of the identities. Does this not strike fear in our hearts?  I don’t know what steps are needed to return this nation to its former self but I sure wish We could get together much like the founders of this nation and take back what is ours. We pay an income tax for which their is no law that says we must, Irs agent have guns, we are in a war that no longer follows the original reason we went in the first place, and that reason is suspect. I feel like a patsy for believing anything that any of them say. I vote, I pay taxes, I support our military in a war I no longer support(Pat Tillman please read) but those in power never offer up anything that doesn’t reek of servitude to the almighty federal reserve dollar.

VeMan, in other words (as they used to say), “If you’re not part of the solution, make the problem so bad that someone will do something about it!”

I am thoroughly disgusted with Republicans and really disappointed with Democratics. The time has come for a viable 3rd party who stands for everything these two parties have sold off to corporate Amerika. I for one, am tired of voting for the lesser of two evils and would like to see an honest,compassionate and most of all intelligent party come to light and put an end to the selling of Amerika to the highest campaign contributor. Bring back honesty and integrity.

There are two factors involved with our elections that have to be fixed. The first is the use of easily manipulatable machines, and the other is the tendency to allow the media to call the election results long before they are counted, and certainly before any fraud has come to light.

I believe the ONLY way to fix both problems is for the hackers of the USA to use every means at their disposal to screw this election up so much its obvious to everyone that true reform is mandatory. In other words, Mickey Mouse, Spiderman, Triumph the Insult Dog, whoever fictional character they wish to write in, should win hugely in districts throughout the country where hackable machines are being used, preferably by millions more votes than are in the district. Make the results ridiculous and obvious and beyond dispute.

Then all the media pundits can babble in disbelief about just how vulnerable everyone is to machines that are DESIGNED to be fixed.

“This can’t be right!! How is it possible that Dr.Seuss is winning in different precincts in different states???”

That would be a November surprise worth waiting for.

Way to go Molly.  And I sadly share your anxiety.  Republicans win because they fi