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Truthdiggers of the Week: The Lancet Study Researchers

Posted on Oct 13, 2006
skull map
Illustration by Peter Scheer

This illustration was inspired by the skull map formerly at Cambodia’s Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum, which honors the innocent victims of another senseless conflict.

This week Truthdig celebrates the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in Baltimore, Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad and the Center for International Studies at MIT as well as The Lancet for their commitment to documenting the real number of Iraqi deaths that have resulted from the 2003 U.S. military invasion of Iraq. 

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The study,  which was reviewed by four independent experts, estimates that over 655,000 Iraqis have been killed since the start of the war.  According to the Christian Science Monitor, “One of the reviewing experts noted the ‘powerful strength’ of the research methods, ‘which involved house-to-house surveys by teams of doctors across Iraq.’ ”

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    By Thomas Paine, October 24, 2006 at 6:07 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Basrah is a war crime, because it will be radioactive there for billions of years, and we already see the deformities and cancers there already.  When U238 starts decaying into plutonium, the most poisenous substance known to man, it will get more uninhabitable, and the radiation will spread.  Why do you think they banned atmospheric test bans?

    Fallujah is a war crime, because it is a chemical weapons attack.  Although the Geneva conventions allow the use of white phosphorus, they do not allow its use to burn the insides out of houses, when there are people in them.  Greg Palast, an American who often reports on the BBC, has been trying to tell us about serious things wrong with our government for a long time, but our media will not even mention his name.  Why?

    Report this

    By JPL, October 18, 2006 at 6:16 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Praying Mantis:

    We should restore their shackles, and for the sake of all the children of the world, release no others.

    Report this

    By gary296, October 17, 2006 at 8:25 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Mr.Kibble, I’m going to have to get my dictionary for all your big words. I do like what you say though!
      My comment is this isn’t the end, Iraq, or the world; We are in a desperate time to use it or lose it meaning our standing as the world’s most powerful country. I do believe the nukes will fly soon! I also believe the draft will happen which I’m truly afraid of because I have three boys 11 to 15. Russia and China are having war games and continue to militarize, preparing for the future. I hope I’m wrong!

    Report this

    By MARIAM RUSSELL, October 17, 2006 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    It seems that someone on another site objected to the discussion of part of the collateral damage of this war being our children….actually thought I was blaming the soldiers…...John. if I sound upset, it is because I am. I had a neighbor in Houston during the most violent years of Vietnam who was doing a residency in psychiatry at the vetran¨s hospital…...after having practiced general medicine in a small town for 13 years….I tell you this to tell you this was no 25 year old, but a mature man who had seen almost every the human race could throw..he thought. He came by my house in the afternoon after work and I served as the psychiatrist´s psychiatrist by listening to his fears of what he was encountering. He was terrified because he was getting the young boys, not a few, lots, whose officers and fellow soldiers were afraid of…these were the ones who got sent home early, but he also knew that as we were sending hundreds of thousands of boys over there who were not being sent home early to his hospital but were still the victims of what they were expected to do….and the extremes of what was actually done that we are only very late finding out.I am aware it is an uncomfortable subject, but it is still a cost of war and we need to take it into account…..not to blame the soldier…..we do enough of blame the victim in our society….but to recognize this cost both for the soldiers returning and make sure they receive the care and counseling needed as well as other types of medical care our wonderful corpgov has seen fit to cut, BUT ALSO THE COST TO THEIR FAMILIES WHO HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF SOMEONE WHO IS OFTEN A STRANGER WITH DEMONS NOT UNDERSTOOD BY THOSE OF US WHO DID NOT EXPERIENCE THE HORROR. IF WE SEND OUR CHILDREN INTO SITUATIONS WHERE NOT ONLY THEIR BODIES ARE IN DANGER BUT THEIR MINDS AND VERY SOUL THEN WE NEED TO TAKE HEED AND BE PREPARED TO DEAL WITH THE AFTERMATH…...WHATEVER THE COST.

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    By paul kibble, October 17, 2006 at 11:31 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Re Comment #29105 by Pragmatist:

    Really, Prag, to wax ad hominem again (and in terms of the kind of cliche you can identify with): If wishes were horses, then intellectual beggars like you could ride.

    Cut-and-paste( a common practice on this site)? Conceptually, that’s a perfectly adequate description of your whole “argument,” a loose amalgam of slightly recycled Repug squawking points masquerading as “ideas.” It’s ironic that someone whose faux debating points consist almost entirely of a series of long-discredited pretexts for the Iraq invasion should scruple over the well-reasoned, well-documented source of my argument, namely, an article by Juan Cole that effectively demolishes your points. (Of course, like all Bush true believers, you were never really interested in an answer any way. Yours isn’t so much an argument as a pathetically naive declaration of faith on behalf of an adminitration that has nothing but contempt for those who actually buy into its bullshit, as witness recent revelations that Rove dismissed all those evangelical supporters as nutcases.)

    Cole’s article, in fact, offered a substantive, point-by-point refutation of your transparently bogus demurral about the legitimacy of those epidemiological stats. Since you lack the polemical prowess to present any kind of plausible (never mind “true”) rebuttal, you instead adopt a faux-Olympian above-the-fray posture, pretending to seek “intellectually heartier fare” to engage your putatively superior forensic skills rather than demean yourself by deigning to reply.

    Sorry, the diversionary tactic didn’t work: you didn’t reply because you can’t reply. And you can’t reply because all the evidence—-aka “reality”—-is on our side. Thanks for conceding the game, set, and match to Mr. Cole—-and moi. And thanks for offering us yet another exercise in the right’s masochistic urge to expose its wilfull emptiness and self-induced stupidity.

    BTW: guess you just lost another raison d’etre for the Iraq conquest. After the death of 2,800
    and 655,000 dead Iraqis, that special Bush-approved committee has agreed that the sacred “stay-the-course” scenario of the last three years just isn’t play out the way Dubster had promised. Sigh!  Another delusion gone! But keep the faith, Prag!

    Report this

    By Pragmatist, October 16, 2006 at 8:11 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    paul kibble, what a spectacular bit of argumentum ad hominem that was!  I prefer intellectually heartier fare though. I’m not a big fan of cut ‘n paste, or kibble and bits.

    Report this

    By MARIAM RUSSELL, October 16, 2006 at 9:52 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)


    Report this

    By OCPatriot, October 16, 2006 at 9:47 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    The remarks both by the Generals and by Bush himself sounded lame.  I have never seen these figures, I don’t think they are credible.  Words like that are hollow.  And of course, I haven’t read the report.  Of course not, if you did you might really get scared at the number alleged to have been killed.  Why anyone puts up with such lameness from our leaders, Generals and the President, mystifies me.  If you vote to keep this Administration in, you deserve the draft you’ll get; otherwise, put some Democrats in to balance them off; in a short while we’ll have to replace them but not immediately.

    Report this

    By Any New Neighbors yet Paul White?, October 16, 2006 at 8:37 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Hello There Paul White:

    Inadvertently, our government has known that we are actually training the little terrorsits want to bees that come through the Iraq borders for more than 3+ years. (No physical way to shut the borders) Why do you think that the USA will NOT release the remainder of the NIE report? After training camp the foreign terror want to bees leave Iraq, well trained! WAKE UP! You might have new neighbors and NOT even know WHO they really are!  Most of the internal fighting that is present is for what group owns the oil wealth from sales to USA Corps. Shite or Sunni, who owns what?

    Hell, at the rate we are going just hang a sign outside the Iraq border:

    “USA TERRORISTS TRAINING CAMP compliments of george bush and the USA is paying”!

    The planning of this war was botched from day one!  You have generals at present on the ground that equal westmorelands = egocentric NUTS!  No guts to speak the truth.
    And what EFFECTS is this non - performance TERROR SPREADING war having here on Americans?

    Iraq is financially killing our US budget. If this war keeps up NO foreign country will want our debt.

    Our trade deficit has gone OUT OF CONTROL.

    Foreign Central Bankers have already DUMPED the US Dollar by the boatloads since 2001.

    Foreign Central Bankers are continuing the MAJOR DUMP of US Dollars into other currencys.

    The Dollar continues to slide into the BUSH toilet bowl.

    Foreign countries are now holding GOLD instead of our US Dollars.

    Soldiers and Iraq’s are dying by the day, relative to all the lies we were told.

    50,000 US Soldiers wounded as of last Jan 2006. Yikes who will pay for this?

    Inflation has gone through the roof. View your grocery bills over the past 5 years. More rice for YOU and less steak! Only george gets the steak!

    Inflation has gone through the roof with health care. 20 % increases per year.

    Inflation has gone through the roof with energy prices over the past 5 years. EXXON is tied into the Republicans OIL FARM!

    Commodities Hedging report closed off from the general public effective August 1, 2006. Second Top first week in August, then all down hill from there.

    Dick Cheney & thieves visited Chicago Mercantile Exchange (commodity )on 6/23/2006.  Platforms installed for electronic trades JULY 2006.  Oil Tops.

    Geepers I’ll bet within 60 days of election EXXON prices go up up and away.  Please buy EXXON’s oil as the CEO needs more money for his retirement account.

    Blue Light isle gasoline special on sale now till NOV 2006.

    This bogeyman war is a back end tax in the form of all commodities.

    Why has gold jumped to 800.00 an ounce this year? INFLATION

    What is next HYPER _ INFLATION when the US government defaults (re…Vietnam )?

    Our government is robbing Peter to PAY Mary to PAY Paul, literally.

    Quality positions even white collar is all being OUT SOURCED to China.

    The Republicans are ABUSING their power in the congress. There presently are NO checks, NO balances in the Senate, the House or the White House. It is ALL Republicans.

    Further, with the Patriot Act, signed this reminds myself of George Orwell 1984 Book or better yet Hitler History time.

    And now pedophiles in the HOUSE and BUSH supports these nuts. YIKES.

    Our country is OUT OF CONTROL with a state run incompetent president that can’t even add!

    Clean the White House OUT, Clean the Senate OUT, Clean the House OUT! Clorox Bleach PLEASE!  It cleans so well!

    Most Sincerely,
    Concerned Mother

    broom please….................

    If this WAR continues just endorse the back of your ENTIRE paycheck to:

    george bush Iraq Katrina FUND, care of USA BANKRUPTCY!

    but don’t forget to enjoy your RICE!

    Report this

    By Jaded Prole, October 16, 2006 at 7:26 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    This administration lacks the credibility to deny its atrocities. Every one of those deaths should be charges of premeditated murder for Cheney, Bush and members of the inner circle of the neocon cabal (Wolfowitz, Perle . . .). Many in Congress and the meda need to be charged as accomplices to mass murder and crimes against humanity.

    It’s time for citizens to seize the reigns as save this country.

    Report this

    By joey, October 15, 2006 at 10:05 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Tony Perkins , religious the right wing fundamentalist and Chris Matthews NBC looked back over the victories the Bush administration delivered for the right wing. They delivered 2 right wing judges to the supreme court . They saved marriage from someone?. And they turned congress into a cash machine for the lobbyists and the churches.
    They never even thought about mentioning Bush’s little misadventure, the mass graves with the 600,000 innocences in Iraq. Are you sure the right wing fundamentalists are really Christian?

    Report this

    By tholin, October 15, 2006 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    I was astonished at the moral gymnastics performed by Glenn Beck on CNN, proclaiming another mainstream media conspiracy is afoot because the networks aren’t trumpeting the study’s finding that “only” 31% of the 650K are directly attributable to coalition forces.

    While omitting the study’s additional finding that 45% of the deaths were cause “undetermined”, Beck constructs his strawman of perception so that he can demolish it with the conservative good news: We only wasted 200,000 Iraqizoids!

    Report this

    By paul kibble, October 15, 2006 at 6:46 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Re the hilariously misnomered “Pragmatist”(Comment #28892):

    Your self-flattering cybername suggests that you fancy yourself a Tough-Minded Realist. On the contrary, you’re a deluded, muddle-headed sentimentalist, a braindead overage Boy Scout who just can’t possibly imagine that what Abe Lincoln called “the last, best hope of earth” could ever be anything but a selfless bringer of light to those heathen dwelling in the outer darkness of the Middle East or elsewhere.

    Like most of the fools who were willingly conned into supporting this war, you’ve had to keep recalibrating the justification for the conquest, sorry, liberation of Iraq every time any inconvenient facts rear their unpleasant little heads:

    * No connection between 9/11 and Saddam? No worries—we were REALLY after those WMD’s!

    *No WMD’s (except those degraded 20+-year-old supplies from Desert Storm) or instant CondiRice-a-Roni mushroom clouds? Never mind—-we REALLY went to stop them there so they don’t come here.

    * NIE’s saying the invasion actually helped the spread of terrorism? That’s OK—-we REALLY went Over There to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people.

    But now that daily sectarian violence and, yes, civil war has erupted just as we cynical “liberals” who studied the religious and cultural history of the region predicted it would in the run-up to the war?  Well, see, “the US invasion did not create their bloody conflict, it merely took the shackles off the Iraqis so they had the freedom to act as they please.  Apparently what pleases them is to kill each other over different interpretations of Islam now that they are out from under Saddam’s boot.”

    Um, yeah, maybe you want to lighten up on the cognitive dissonance there: you’re starting to sound a little schizzy. Also, oddly, no mention of fact that the Iraqis don’t like having us there as long-term occupiers as a possible cause of violence. How could you omit that salient detail? Oh, right: can’t quite squeeze it into the rose-tinted dreamscape of neocon Bushthink. . .yet. Paging Dr. Procrustes—-we need you to lop off another ideological talking point to fit the factoids into the ever (forgive the word) evolving fairy tale of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

    BTW, re those body counts: you can quit scratching your head. It sounds like your thumping on an empty water tank. As has been noted, the statistical techniques used by epidemiologists in Iraq are the same as currently employed in, for example, estimating the number of casualties in Darfur. I don’t hear anyone seriously disputing those figures.

    And the bodies? Try ro follow the bouncing ball here, knucklehead:

    “I once warned that a precipitate US withdrawal could result in a million dead a la Cambodia or Afghanistan. Little did I know that the conditions created by the US invasion and occupation have all along been driving toward that number anyway!. . . .”

    “The New York Times report has already made a serious error, saying that deaths in the Saddam period were covered up. The families interviewed knew whether their loved ones were disappearing in 2001 and 2002 and had no reason to cover it up if they were. The survey established the baseline with a contemporary questionnaire. It wasn’t depending on Iraqi government statistics. . . .”

    “When you see someone waxing cynical about the study, ask yourself: Does this person know what a chi square is? And, who does this person work for, really?. . . .”

    “First of all, Iraqi Muslims don’t believe in embalming or open casket funerals days later. They believe that the body should be buried by sunset the day of death, in a plain wooden box. So there is no reason to expect them to take the body to the morgue. Although there are benefits to registering with the government for a death certificate, there are also disadvantages. Many families who have had someone killed believe that the government or the Americans were involved, and will have wanted to avoid drawing further attention to themselves by filling out state forms and giving their address.”

    “Personally, I believe very large numbers of Iraqi families quietly bury their dead without telling the government of all people anything about it. Another large number of those killed is dumped in the Tigris river by their killers. A fisherman on the Tigris looking for lunch recently caught the corpse of a woman. The only remarkable thing about it is that he let it be known to the newspapers. I’m sure the Tigris fishermen throw back unwanted corpses every day.”

    “Not to mention that for substantial periods of time since 2003 it has been dangerous in about half the country just to move around, much less to move around with dead bodies.”

    “There is heavy fighting almost every day at Ramadi in al-Anbar province, among guerrillas, townspeople, tribes, Marines and Iraqi police and army. We almost never get a report of these skirmishes and we almost never are told about Iraqi casualties in Ramadi. Does 1 person a day die there of political violence? Is it more like 4? 10? What about Samarra? Tikrit? No one is saying. Since they aren’t, on what basis do we say that the Lancet study is impossible?”

    “There are about 90 major towns and cities in Iraq. If we subtract Baghdad, where about 100 a day die, that still leaves 89. If an average of 4 or so are killed in each of those 89, then the study’s results are correct. Of course, 4 is an average. Cities in areas dominated by the guerrilla movement will have more than 4 killed daily, sleepy Kurdish towns will have no one killed.”

    “If 470 were dying every day, what would that look like?”

    “West Baghdad is roughly 10% of the Iraqi population. It is certainly generating 47 dead a day. Same for Sadr City, same proportions. So to argue against the study you have to assume that Baquba, Hilla, Kirkuk, Kut, Amara, Samarra, etc., are not producing deaths at the same rate as the two halves of Baghad. But it is perfectly plausible that rough places like Kut and Amara, with their displaced Marsh Arab populations, are keeping up their end. Four dead a day in Kut or Amara at the hands of militiamen or politicized tribesmen? Is that really hard to believe? Have you been reading this column the last three years?”

    “Or let’s take the city of Basra, which is also roughly 10% of the Iraqi population. Proportionally speaking, you’d expect on the order of 40 persons to be dying of political violence there every day. We don’t see 40 persons from Basra reported dead in the wire services on a daily basis.”

    “But last May, the government authorities in Basra came out and admitted that security had collapsed in the city and that for the previous month, one person had been assassinated every hour. Now, that is 24 dead a day, just from political assassination. Apparently these persons were being killed in faction fighting among Shiite militias and Marsh Arab tribes. We never saw any of those 24 deaths a day reported in the Western press. And we never see any deaths from Basra reported in the wire services on a daily basis even now. Has security improved since May? No one seems even to be reporting on it, yes or no.”

    “So if 24 Iraqis can be shot down every day in Basra for a month (or for many months?) and no one notices, the Lancet results are perfectly plausible.”

    “The abstract for the study says:”

    “‘Methods: Between May and July 2006 a national cluster survey was conducted in Iraq to assess deaths occurring during the period from January 1, 2002, through the time of survey in 2006. Information on deaths from 1,849 households containing 12,801 persons was collected. This survey followed a similar but smaller survey conducted in Iraq in 2004. Both surveys used standard methods for estimating deaths in conflict situations, using population-based methods.’”

    “‘Key Findings: Death rates were 5.5/1000/year pre-invasion, and overall, 13.2/1000/year for the 40 months post-invasion. We estimate that through July 2006, there have been 654,965 “excess deaths”—fatalities above the pre-invasion death rate—in Iraq as a consequence of the war. Of post-invasion deaths, 601,027 were due to violent causes. Non-violent deaths rose above the pre-invasion level only in 2006. Since March 2003, an additional 2.5% of Iraq’s population have died above what would have occurred without conflict.’”

    “‘The proportion of deaths ascribed to coalition forces has diminished in 2006, though the actual numbers have increased each year. Gunfire remains the most common reason for death, though deaths from car bombing have increased from 2005. Those killed are predominantly males aged 15-44 years. ‘“

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    By Jonb, October 15, 2006 at 6:26 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Pragmatist writes “In any case, it is not Bush or the United States that has killed most of the Iraqis who have died from violence since the invasion. It is Iraqis killing Iraqis, Sunnis vs. Shiites.”

    There was no civil war during the saddam’s reign. Civil war occurred after the invasion. Second, fanning religious hatred, as the case in Iraq, isn’t new. Brits had done exactly the same in India. The indian civil war between muslims and hindus eventually led to the creation of Pakistan. This was called divide and conquer, a very old strategy. Third, invaders have the responsibility and the military means to maintain law and order in occupied territoreis. This too had happened througout the history.
    Bush the 41 didn’t occupy Iraq because of the associated cost and consequences. Pity, the man didn’t benefit from his dad’s DNA.

    Report this

    By irrelevant, October 15, 2006 at 4:44 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    decapitate 1776 freemasons heads of..burn 666 illuminati high level members and torture 322 skull and bones members for 911 days…and this world will miraculously become a new world…a world that we the humans run

    Report this

    By jackie T. Gabel, October 15, 2006 at 12:40 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Comment #28892 by Pragmatist  on  10/15  at  10:03 am
    “ is not Bush or the United States that has killed most of the Iraqis who have died from violence since the invasion. It is Iraqis killing Iraqis, Sunnis vs. Shiites.”
      > Not ture; US/UK-run death squads and false flag terror is responsible for most - it’s the strategy of tension and assassination (e.g. Gladio & Mano Blanco) gone mad.

    Comment #28885 by Mad As Hell  on  10/15  at  8:55 am
    “And now, only 30-35% of Americans believe Bush on ANYTHING he says—these are the True Believers.” 
        > Yes, and the treason at the heart of 911Truth is the only thing that will crack this hard-core support. Support 911Truth!

    Comment #28828 by sodak143  on  10/14  at  8:48 pm
    “...where were you when Iraq was gassing it’s own people?  Oh yeah…you were the one saying we should do “something”...
        > I was one of many who said, “stop supporting this madman and all the other puppet madmen around the world, as pieces on Zbigniew Brzezinski’s so-called Grand Chessboard.”

    Report this

    By Spinoza, October 15, 2006 at 12:21 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Pragmatist exemplifies the term fuckwitted.

    It is important to use strong language when people behave dishonestly.

    Report this

    By tony, October 15, 2006 at 10:12 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    It’s worth noting that the methodology of the report is the one officially approved by the Pentagon to estimate deaths in war zones. They used this methodology in Kosovo, for example, where they had no reason to try to spin the numbers.

    Report this

    By Pragmatist, October 15, 2006 at 10:03 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Where are the bodies?

    The coroners, hospitals and casket makers of Iraq would like to know. They are scratching their heads at these figures as they have not seen even 1/10th of this many victims of deaths attributable to warfare.

    In any case, it is not Bush or the United States that has killed most of the Iraqis who have died from violence since the invasion. It is Iraqis killing Iraqis, Sunnis vs. Shiites.  The US invasion did not create their bloody conflict, it merely took the shackles off the Iraqis so they had the freedom to act as they please.  Apparently what pleases them is to kill each other over different interpretations of Islam now that they are out from under Saddam’s boot.

    If they want to commit genocide against each other, perhaps we should do as the liberals say and pull out of Iraq now. Then you will see a real death toll get started, the likes of which have not been seen since Rwanda.

    Report this

    By Mad As Hell, October 15, 2006 at 8:55 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    It’s a VERY easy study to discount.

    Mad King George says it’s false. His Band of Merrie Fascists go to their eMail and fax banks and send out to ALL the true believers that “this study is false and was funded by liberal Democrats and foreigners who hate us.”

    The True Believers (Hondo is GREAT example) immediately and loudly start yelling in every possible forum that the study is false and a liberal trick.  They keep yelling it and yelling on the Goebbels theorem that a lie repeated often enough becomes the truth.

    But this time it’s not working.  Johns-Hopkins and The Lancet aren’t Liberal think-tanks.  Valid statistical sampling methods and birth and death rates are long-proven methodologies. Peer review has been unable to poke holes in a bullet-proof study.

    And now, only 30-35% of Americans believe Bush on ANYTHING he says—these are the True Believers. 

    Everybody is dealing with the horror that our beloved nation has brought about the deaths of 655,000 Iraqis and for no damn good reason other than George Bush made it happen. 

    He wanted to be remembered in history—he will be—as a mass murderer on the scale of Slobodan Milosovic, Darfur, Pol Pot, even Hitler, Stalin, Tojo and Mao.

    Report this

    By Bukko in Australia, October 15, 2006 at 1:09 am Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    At what point does it become genocide? Are we talking numbers here, like 1 million murders = genocide? Or is it a percentage of the population? That sets a higher standard, given that the definition of genocide is “wiping out a people.” I’d say you need more than 50% to be a true genocide. That’s going to mean Bushie and his minions (I don’t “support the troops” when they’re murderers) will have to kill 12 million.

    To quote what he no longer says any more because it opened him to too much ridicule: “It’s hard work!” Especially for the ones pulling the triggers and hearing the screams. At least they don’t have to mop up the blood. That’s left to the countrymen of the victims.

    This definition of genocide is important, because Bush has his legacy to think about. He might go down in the history books as an incompetent invader who destroyed a country. Many have done so and are soon forgotten. But if he’s known as someone who committed the first genocide of the 21st Century, the first genocide to be covered every day on worldwide television (except in the U.S., where it’s too ratings-unfriendly to watch) it will make his Mama so proud! Her little black sheep will be remembered for as long as people can spit out his name!

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    By ABC, October 14, 2006 at 11:38 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Tokyo had to be fire bombed to kill 100,000.  Dresden had to be fire bombed to kill 35,000.  When was Bagdad fire bombed?  The “study” is a joke as all of you are.

    Report this

    By sodak143, October 14, 2006 at 8:48 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    So instead of citing a “reliable” study, why not try and provide a solution.  Complaining on a website will do nothing to get us out of the quagmire we are in.  Yes, we should have never invaded Iraq, for whatever contrived reason, but now that we are there…what should we do??  Besides, where were you when Iraq was gassing it’s own people?  Oh yeah…you were the one saying we should do “something” about.  Where do you stand on what is happening in Sudan..or do you only comment on what is discussed at your local coffee house???

    Report this

    By Spinoza, October 14, 2006 at 8:40 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    In all wars the number of dead caused by the war is greatly underestimated. In the Korean war I have read figures in the American press of one to 2 million killed.  But I have read Korean sources and they say the number was closer to 8 to 12 million. They had mammouth numbers of dead and tens of thousands were burnt to death by nalpalm. They suffered probably the most terrible bombing in history. VietNam/IndoChina, likewise suffered much higher casualties than usually reported.

    A neighbor told me about his experience in Poland during the war. Thousands of Jews escaped to the woods and lived there for most of the war.  He also said that most young children and older people did not survive. These people should be counted as victims of war.

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    By Allen, October 14, 2006 at 7:18 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    Even if this number were 60,000, or 6,000, or 600, or only 6, can we as a country be less responsible?  Does one death mean less?  How?  What if the one out of the six dead in this fabricated war were your father, mother, brother, sister, aunt, uncle, ect., etc.

    Report this

    By Billy Parker, October 14, 2006 at 6:58 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    This study and its immediate dismissal begs a follow up question to our present administration—“At what number of Iraqi deaths do we have to take a hard look in the mirror?”  Let’s assume that the benchmark, for what seems to be a perfectly acceptible amount of indigenous Iraqi lives lost, is the lowest number given by the Bush team, (around 40,000). There seems to be no mention of this as a tremendous hardship bestowed upon the Iraqi citizens in order to achieve what is primarily an American objective. Will it be 70,000, 100,000, 250,000? In fairness, the percentage of casualties (no matter what number is stated) attributed directly to Americans would be debatable.  But all of these estimates begin with the same date—March 2003.

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    By dave, October 14, 2006 at 5:25 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    One day soon the other 95|% of the earth’s population is liable to put america in its place and hard
    Fortunately for me being a Canadian I can say with a certainty that americans are not doing this deed in fact it is only a small percentage of Americans that perpetrate this carnage
    of those us soldiers that return home how many of them will be mental retards with serious issues
    and what happenes when they find out that their beloved republic has turned into a facist state where the soldiers get all the guilt and the criminals get off scot free due to retroactive
    laws passed to allow them to go unpunished
    the day is coming when all the soldiers have to live with their conscience and face up to the evil deeds they do /did
    good night and good luck

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    By Cheney/Voldemort 2008 Campaign HQ, October 14, 2006 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    So what does it say about Our Glorious Leader, the Boy King, to reject this study so completely out of hand without even considering for a single moment that the peer review on this study has been merciless, and without, of course any substance to his rejection, except that of political expediency?

    Welcome to the United States of Happy Families(SM)!

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    By Gonnuts, October 14, 2006 at 2:06 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    600,000+ ... 600,000+!!!  Let’s say they’re off by half ... that’s still 10 times MORE than bush has casually admitted to.

    600,000 dead - using round numbers, at the 1,000 days we’ve been there, that’s 600 dead men, women and children ... 25 dead, every hour - nearly one every mintue - every day - 1,000 days in a row ... let’s not even talk about the many more crippled, both physical and mental - God knows how many sociopaths we’re producing - 600,000 thousand ... 600,000 thousand ... that number - its staggering ... what “noble cause” is worth this carnage? if only 25% of that number is children, normally in wars of this nature that number would be 50% - that’s 200,000 thousand children ... numbers like these numb you - imagine having to witness or be part of this carnage ... feeling sick yet? I’m feeling physically ill just hearing about it …

    ... all this death ... caused by a small group of vile men.

    600,000 thousand and counting …

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    By Roger Drowne EC, October 14, 2006 at 1:30 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)



    TIME’S UP… END all WARS now

    see how 2 do it ( AROUND OUR EARTH ) at…

    Thank U, .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

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    By jackie T. Gabel, October 13, 2006 at 11:52 pm Link to this comment
    (Unregistered commenter)

    It begs the question: “Have there been eggs enough cracked for Mr. Rumsfeld’s omelette?”

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