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 Christopher Hitchens: Religion Poisons EverythingPosted on Jun 6, 2007
By Jon Wiener In his latest book, “God Is Not Great,” Christopher Hitchens makes the case against religion and for “free inquiry and open-mindedness.” Hitchens, of course, is a contributing editor to Vanity Fair, a visiting professor of liberal studies at the New School, and author of many books. He spoke recently with Truthdig’s Jon Wiener. Jon Wiener: You show in your book how many horrible things men have done because of religion. In Belfast, Beirut, Bombay, Belgrade and Baghdad, men kill other men, and say God told them to do it. But why blame God for the bad things that men do? Christopher Hitchens: I don’t blame God. I blame religion. I don’t believe there is such a thing as God. Religion makes people do wicked things they wouldn’t ordinarily do. It doesn’t make them behave better—it makes them behave worse. You couldn’t get people to hack away at the genitals of their newborn children if they didn’t think there was a religious obligation to do so. The licenses for genocide, slavery, racism, are all right there in the holy text. Wiener: Yes, the Old Testament is full of these horrors. But it also contains the Ten Commandments, prohibiting killing, stealing, adultery, and lying—isn’t this a good thing? Hitchens: No. it’s not. Because these are prefaced by a series of injunctions to fear a permanent, unalterable dictatorship. The first three commandments say “just realize who’s boss.” Let’s assume the story of Moses is true, even though archaeologists have utterly discredited it. Do our Jewish ancestors have to put up with the insult from us at this late stage that, until they got to Sinai, they thought murder and theft and perjury were OK? Of course not. There would have been no such people if they thought that. There has never been a society or civilization that did warrant those things. And you don’t need divine urging to see that they’re wrong yourself. Wiener: There’s one other commandment, the tenth—thou shalt not covet.
Hitchens: That is a particularly horrible crime of dictatorship, namely the crime of thought. It says you can’t even think about this. To say you’re not allowed to steal your neighbor’s possessions—including his wife—that’s one thing. But to say you’re not allowed to envy your neighbor is absurd. It’s impossible. And the spirit of envy can lead to ambition and innovation and initiative. I would say that’s an immoral commandment.
Hitchens: I don’t. Islam in fact has one advantage over Christianity—it doesn’t have a papacy. There is no center that can say “we condemn this” or “we support this,” the way the church supported Franco Spain and said prayers in Germany on Hitler’s birthday by order of the Vatican. But the centers of legislation and authority in the Islamic world, such as Al-Azhar University in Cairo, have a lot of difficulty condemning suicide bombing. In fact they’ve never got around to doing it. They can’t seem to condemn even the blowing up of other Muslims—in Iraq, for instance, where they are blowing up each other’s children and each other’s holy places. No words seem to come from either Sunni or Shiite religious authorities there or elsewhere in the world saying “this is wrong.” That’s because they don’t really think it is. If it’s done for their cause, they surreptitiously sympathize with it, and you can detect that surreptitious sympathy if you read any of the statements from the Muslim authorities. That’s a grave crisis for Islam—and for us, too. Wiener: Are you saying Islam is worse than other religions? It seems to me your position has to be that all religions are equally bad. Hitchens: The position I take in the book is, of course, that all religion is equally stupid and an expression of contempt for reason and an exaltation of the idea of faith, of believing things without evidence. But that doesn’t mean I think a Quaker and a Bin Laden are exactly the same. They all have individual disadvantages. I would say that, with Catholicism, the mad insistence on celibacy is peculiarly deforming. With Islam, the problem is that it claims to be the last and final revelation. All that’s required now is that everybody realize the truth of this book. That’s extremely dangerous preaching, in my opinion. Wiener: Don’t Christian fundamentalists say pretty much the same thing? Hitchens: Yes they do. But I think there is a real problem with Islam of intolerance in that way—it forbids itself to have a reformation. That’s fanatical and actually murderous right now. Wiener: Is the problem you have been describing religion per se, or is it the monotheistic religions of the West: Judaism, Christianity, Islam? Are Eastern religions different and better? Especially Buddhism, with its compassion for all living things; especially Tibetan Buddhism, with its impressive leader, the Dalai Lama. Hitchens: The Dalai Lama claims to be a hereditary god and a hereditary king. I don’t think any decent person can assent to that proposition. You should take a look at what Tibet was like when it was run by the lamas. Buddhism has some of the same problems as Western religion. Zen was the official ideology of Hirohito’s fascism that was used to conquer and reduce the rest of Asia to subservience. The current dictatorship in Burma is officially Buddhist. The Buddhist forces in Sri Lanka are the ones who began the horrific civil war there with their pogroms against the Tamils in the 1950s and 1960s. Lon Nol’s army in Cambodia was officially Buddhist. Wiener: Let’s talk about the U.S. Polls show that 94 per cent of Americans believe in God, and 89 per cent believe in heaven; of those, three-fourths think they will go to heaven, but only 2 per cent think they will go to hell. This seems laughable, but what’s the harm in people believing they will go to heaven after they die—and see their mothers there? Hitchens: All you have to do is promise them 72 virgins, and they’ll kill to get there. That’s what’s wrong with it, along with the fact that it’s a solipsistic delusion. And the spreading of delusion in the end isn’t a good thing, because credulous and deluded people are easy to exploit. People arise who are aware of that fact. If belief in heaven was private, like the tooth fairy, I’d say fine. But tooth fairy supporters don’t come around to your house and try to convert you. They don’t try to teach your children stultifying pseudo-science in school. They don’t try to prevent access to contraception. The religious won’t leave us alone. These are not just private delusions, they’re ones they want to inflict on other people. Wiener: Of course, you are right that we have Pat Robertson and, until recently, Jerry Falwell, saying horrible things in the name of religion. Both welcomed 9/11 as payback for America’s tolerance of homosexuality and abortion. But we have also had Martin Luther King and Daniel Berrigan and William Sloane Coffin. Why not conclude that religion can lead people to do good things as well as bad? Hitchens: Let me start with a question: Can you name a moral action taken, or a moral statement made, by a believer that could not have been made by an atheist? I don’t think so. I’ll take your case at its strongest—that would be Dr. King. Fortunately for us, he wasn’t really a Christian, because if he had followed the preachments in Exodus about the long march to freedom, he would have invoked the right that the Bible gives to take the land of others, to enslave other tribes, to kill their members, to rape their women, and to destroy them down to their uttermost child. Fortunately for us, he didn’t take that route. The people who actually organized the March on Washington, Bayard Rustin and A. Phillip Randolph, were both secularists and socialists. The whole case for the emancipation of black America had already been made perfectly well by secularists. I don’t particularly object to the tactic of quoting the Bible against the white Christian institutions that maintained at first slavery and then segregation. But there’s no authority in the Bible for civil rights—none whatever. There is authority for slavery and segregation. The widespread view among white liberals that black people in some way prefer to be led by preachers is a condescending one. It leaves out heroes of the movement like Rustin and Randolph, and has licensed the assumption that people like Jesse Jackson and, much worse, a complete charlatan and thug like Al Sharpton, are somehow OK because they’ve got the word “Reverend” in front of their names. That’s done enormous damage, not just to black people, but to the country in general. It’s the Falwell equivalent. Wiener: What about practical politics for progressives: since almost all Americans believe in God, for progressives to attack, ridicule and dismiss religion as you do is political suicide that will ensure religious Republican domination forever. Instead, we must argue that God is not on their side, and we must respect the fact that people belong to different communities of belief. Hitchens: If you want to argue that God is not on their side, you can’t argue “that’s because he’s on my side”—you have to argue there is no such person. Marxism begins by arguing that people have to emancipate their minds. The beginning of that emancipation is outgrowing of religion. If religion were true, there would be no need for politics; you’d only need to have faith. Wiener: I know you’ve often been told that everybody has faith in something—for most Americans, it’s Jesus; for you, it’s reason and science. Hitchens: That’s not faith, by definition. You can’t have faith in reason. It’s not a dogma. It’s a conviction that this is the only way that discovery and progress can be made. Wiener: The intelligent person’s argument for religion is that religion and rationality don’t compete—they deal with different parts of life. Religion answers questions that science doesn’t: Why do the innocent suffer? What is the meaning of life? What happens when we die? Hitchens: I wish it was true. But, in fact, religion doesn’t keep its part of the bargain here. It incessantly seeks to limit first discoveries and innovation in science and then their application. Galileo, of course, but more recently discoveries about the possibilities of limiting the size of your family. Really, they don’t want us to reconsider our place in the universe, because if we face the fact that we live on a tiny speck in an immense universe, it’s going to be difficult to convince people it was all created with that tiny speck in mind. It’s not possible to believe that nonsense if you have any interest in science. Wiener: The final killer argument of your critics is that Hitler and Stalin were not religious. The worst crimes of the 20th century did not have a religious basis. They came from political ideology. Hitchens: That’s easy. Hitler never abandoned Christianity and recommends Catholicism quite highly in “Mein Kampf.” Fascism, as distinct from National Socialism, was in effect a Catholic movement. Wiener: What about Stalin? He wasn’t religious. Hitchens: Stalin—easier still. For hundreds of years, millions of Russians had been told the head of state should be a man close to God, the czar, who was head of the Russian Orthodox Church as well as absolute despot. If you’re Stalin, you shouldn’t be in the dictatorship business if you can’t exploit the pool of servility and docility that’s ready-made for you. The task of atheists is to raise people above that level of servility and credulity. No society has gone the way of gulags or concentration camps by following the path of Spinoza and Einstein and Jefferson and Thomas Paine. Previous item: Iraq Is the New Korea Elsewhere: . CommentsAre you a Truthdig member yet? Login now, or register with Truthdig. |
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By billythedik, December 26, 2007 at 2:52 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Hiya She! Yes, it’s the good no-goodnik. Jiminy Cricket, I’ve been all over gob’s green Earth. Checked back here about 3 weeks ago but saw no sign of the groovy ghoulies. Have you heard of Gather.com? Go there, it’s free and we have a blast. Right now we’re having a fun time on a thread about starting our own non-religion: Rutheranism (after my near-90-year-old heroine, Madame Ruth. My name there is Lyndon (billythedik). We all have our own nameplaces (w/ photos! Yikes!!! Billy in Color! I’ve got some book reviews and some silly sh*t. We need your sharp mind, She! Please come see us.
Report thisLove and Lasagna, BtheK.
P.S. LIS, it’s free and you earn points. I have a $50 gift card for B&N;but one can also trade in for cash if one gets so many (3000?) pts in a month.
By Shenonymous, December 26, 2007 at 9:30 am #
Finally…userluck22 is a meathead mercenary skirmisher who thinks he can browbeat anyone with an avalanche of “censorship & obfuscation,” as you put it very well. I swear these types take a laxative for the center of the brain that issues words.
Yes, net discrimination must be stopped and stopped now. What is the best strategy, the best tactics? We are at your side. I’m going to post this at the TD Hitchens page as well.
Yes, I saw your #122582 post before.
Report thisBy PaulMagillSmith, December 26, 2007 at 9:06 am #
Just to be sure, she, here is the link to the article (not the post):
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/20/5924/
Also, see my comment posted below before before you go there(#122582 by PaulMagillSmith on 12/26 at 8:40 am)
Report thisBy Shenonymous, December 26, 2007 at 8:58 am #
In that case PMS, just repost it here and stop all this silly back and forth between TD and CD or post it on “our” CD site. Aristotle, my favorite misogynist said, “Give unto a thing only that what it deserves.” Screw the Net Neutrality article; we’ll just start up a new dialog. Most of the ones on the Net Neutrality site are dunderheads anyway. I’m sure everyone there would be interested more than you might even think. Just copy and paste dear one.
Gotta go, I’m setting up my new studio today. But I’ll check in this afternoon. Have a great day. The days are getting imperceptibly longer now.
Report thisBy PaulMagillSmith, December 26, 2007 at 8:40 am #
She,
It’s on the article about Net Neutrality, and yes it is still posted, but I am becoming highly suspicious now because my comment is still even now listed as ‘Your comment is awaiting moderation’, while a very long ridiculous comment, completely insane & off subject, posted after it doesn’t say a word about moderation. I feel this ‘other’ comment was just posted there to cover mine up.
I’m sure what I posted touches a few nerves, or perhaps I’m just being a bit paranoid. On the other hand, since the MSM is controlled, some of the people who control it also are invested in the internet providers, and the collusive government has the ability to ‘tap’ almost every method of communications, perhaps my suspicians are valid, logical, & reasonable.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, December 26, 2007 at 7:00 am #
PMS, your post still doesn’t show up! I will try one more time if you say you are going to post it again. After that, kaput! Are you sure you are posting it to the link you noted?
Report thisBy Leefeller, December 26, 2007 at 6:19 am #
PMS,
The article on CD may be having a problem because of what the article is about, the problem?
If that is Billy, Chompers needs some feed back.
Obtuse me. How long will we have our freedom.
Report thisBy PaulMagillSmith, December 25, 2007 at 10:37 pm #
I re-posted it, she, and it is now at the bottom of the page:
PaulMagillSmith December 25th, 2007 2:00 pm
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
But it’s been waiting for 12 hours now. Christmas might have something to do with that, but we still need to keep our eyes on this, right?
Report thisBy Shenonymous, December 25, 2007 at 10:24 pm #
My Bad…Paul, sorry. I meant abstruse NOT obtuse, It truly apologize. I have always found your posts interesting if abstruse at times. Please accept my sincere admission of mindless mistake. I look forward to your piquant and astute comments.
Oh by the way, I checked out the CommonDreams site, and what exactly did you say that might be interesting? “Sorry for the double post. I guess someone in cyberspace is asleep at the switch.”
I hope to see you around more often.
Report thisBy PaulMagillSmith, December 25, 2007 at 9:57 pm #
Do you really think this is a good description of me, she, or did you mean abstract?
obtuse---Lacking quickness of perception or intellect. Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity.
Actually, if either of those words apply then I am disappointed in myself because I would rather be direct & concrete.
Report thisBy PaulMagillSmith, December 25, 2007 at 9:50 pm #
Not really obtuse, She, and you might want to go to this link to see what I posted. Why do you have a different name now, billy?
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/12/20/5924/
Report thisBy Shenonymous, December 25, 2007 at 8:51 pm #
Billy, Billy, is that you? Really you? The name came up without and capitals. We, at least the three of us: me, myself, and I, have missed you, and your rotten tongue, said with much endearment. Truly. Yeah, exactly, where are you? Where have you been? We thought you died or something or got run out of the forum by that idiot FA. I get a hit and run email every so often from MMC. I always send a reply but he never replies to my replies????? Seems like some sort of a mental aberration. You are welcome to join us at CommonDreams see my earlier post here for the address. PaulMagillSmith has seemingly joined us just the other day, but he is quite obtuse.
Report thisBy billythedik, December 25, 2007 at 8:07 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Where am I?
Report thisBy Shenonymous, December 22, 2007 at 3:14 pm #
BTW to all:
Report thisHappy Solstice, started early this a.m. at 1:00 am EST. It’s going to be a very good year, right?
By Shenonymous, December 22, 2007 at 7:39 am #
PMS, FYI, we had to move our CD site because we overloaded it! Wujabaleev? I talked with home office in Maine, and they can’t figure it out either why the site just shut down. Anyway, they invited us to hop onto another site that wasn’t used much so we did. If, and according to your recent post here, you are thinking of affiliating with us, though I can’t think of any good reason why except we are an interesting clan, you are welcome to join our little band of weird warriors at http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/30/2200/
Report thisBy PaulMagillSmith, December 20, 2007 at 9:36 pm #
Hey Leefeller,
Report thisAs ‘She’ said CD doesn’t ban people. Sometimes my posts get held up awhile (I think due to increased traffic...which is a positive sign), but they always eventually go through. How could they do that to us for posting based on research, introspection, reflection, and opinion? There are some obvious trolls running through threads, but they usually become evident pretty quickly by their contrary or insane positions. Try again Lee, ok? See you at CD...you too, Shenonymous.
By Sam, December 20, 2007 at 6:50 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
//The Buddhist forces in Sri Lanka are the ones who began the horrific civil war there with their pogroms against the Tamils in the 1950s and 1960s//
Is Christopher really supporting terrorists here?
This is the same thing, world worst terrorist group LTTE, use to justify their action and repeat in there propaganda. it is very irresponsible Christopher legalizing a false reason used by terrorist group, who have invented suicide belt, suicide bots witch later on transfer to Islamic militants that have used all over the world.
The war in Sri Lanka has nothing to do with Religion at all.
Note, LTTE is a banned terrorist group all around the world. So you should be more responsible and sensitive in publishing statements like this.
Report thisBy DamnWilcox, December 8, 2007 at 8:08 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
Ok if the Big Bang didn’t happen what is the background radiation we can observe from every corner of the universe. And to boot what is it doing at the proper energy level for having been coming from the big bang for 14 billion years? Why can we point a telescope at the darkest regions of the sky and see the same uniform background radiation that makes up ‘the wall’, the light from the big bang.
Why not study some cosmology before presuming your faith means anything outside of the religious echo chamber in the US. Try building something to keep track of time, navigate space or do interstellar communications...oh wait religion doesn’t do those things.
Your mighty faith sure quiets us science folk down.
-D
WrongPolicy.blogspot.com
Report thisBy Jesus of Nazareth, November 18, 2007 at 2:52 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
ahhh, Christopher. You’ve been overlooking the simpler aspects of life, morality and authorship. I’ll list a few things:
The Ten Commandments, and the Old and New Testaments (and others) have been a way for men to roundup the herd, so to speak, and give them starting-points for society building; this being necessary because everyone has always known deep down that the planet would eventually be overrun with people.
My work has usually been misstated by clergy and authors. It was a simple two-tier message: resist oppression at every level, correcting the offender with your own right conduct. Two, protect the lives of others, even if it means you take a loss. Practicing these two disciplines will often draw one to the other virtues.
To conclude for you, Christopher, there is only one Commandment of which I’ve been made aware. Suppress the urge to self-importance.
Now take a shave.
Report thisAnd no, the Big Bang never happened.
By APOLLOSPEAKS, October 17, 2007 at 5:05 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I always get a rise out of Hitchens including Thomas Jefferson in his losing crusade against God and religion when that greatest of the founders believed in an intelligently designed universe with a Creator God that brings good out of evil. A rereading of the Jeffersonian Bible tells us that this man believed in a God, a spiritual heaven occupied by disembidied beings and a moral law not of man’s invention. If Thomas Jeferson were with us today he would not be friendly to Hitchen’s atheistic materialsim. Nor would he count them as something worth fussing over as most of Hitchen’s moral views are derived from the “poisonous” traditions he ridicules.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, October 5, 2007 at 9:50 am #
Lee, what’s going on? First notice about MMC new post on TD, then yours which says banned from CD??? Naw, CD doesn’t ban, our dicussion is live and well. Did you mean something else? I don’t want to come back here to discuss anything but it is a way to get message to various e-persons. See you back at our CD place.
Report thisBy Leefeller, October 5, 2007 at 6:47 am #
Anyone out there? Been banned from common dreams.org or at least cannot get in, must have something to do with being to common? Well, if any can reply here feel free, otherwise so long heritics.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, September 9, 2007 at 2:31 pm #
Getting to know you, getting to know all about you… doesn’t always make anybody love you. It isn’t wise to put too much stock into anyone, unless you know them really really well and then sometimes it still doesn’t merit commitment. That may be cynical but must check things out (as you did John), if there is anything that is reasonable and worthy, then integrate it into your own thinking. Throw the rest away. No one is worth reverence. Hitchens has some good spots and some that are not. For instance, I totally disagree with him on Iraq, but I agree that religion poisons. You are welcome to join our conversation at
Report thishttp://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/28/2149/
TD seems to have truncated some of us so we moved. This one may not make it.
By John Borowski, September 9, 2007 at 4:47 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
I purchased the CDs in reference to Religion Poisons Everything. At the time, I was impressed by his courage to use verity to analyze religion despite the harm (Physical and economic) that could come to him. In retrospect, my opinion has changed. I saw him on C-span2 and discovered a few flaws in his make-up. In his past, he was a commie and now he is an atheist. (To be his worst enemy, be his best friend) He showed his Washington DC apartment facing the avenue that is used for presidential parades and in full view of the important buildings in Washington DC. Do you really believe that an apartment like that (An assassin’s fantasy dream nest) would be rented to anybody without a thorough background check by the FBI? His track record of being an ex-commie, and an atheist would prevent him from ever renting that type of apartment. The supposition I now have is that he is a Trojan horse. Most likely, he feels that the classes below on the pecking order that he considers as garbage threatens the ruling class in Great Britain (He is from there). His game plan is to attack the leaders of this “garbage” to emasculate them. Many British have a low opinion of Americans. In World War 2, Hitler felt that the one hope he had of winning the war was that the British and American generals would go at each other’s throat. This almost happened when the British general Montgomery pissed off the American generals. General Eisenhower told London either Montgomery goes or he goes. After London took Montgomery to the woodshed, the shaky peace was restored. It was nearing the final act in World War 2 and the British didn’t want anything to circumvent it.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, August 28, 2007 at 3:27 pm #
I’m trying too. Billy, you are sorely missed. I’ll be surprised if this gets in. See #96543.
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 28, 2007 at 2:53 pm #
Hey Billy,
If you are still around, come on over to the other site. Michael is still doing his gonad brain routine, and it’s taking it’s toll on me old sanity. (Not really, but it would be great for your input)
Heineken please
Report thisBy Rob, August 28, 2007 at 1:01 pm #
nf
You sound like a chap we would enjoy sharing a conversation with. Scroll down to the address of the common dreams site and join us.
Report thisBy nf, August 26, 2007 at 12:54 pm #
It amazes me that this thread is still alive. It is apparent to this anti-theist that it is self evident that believers have a deficiency in their logic and reasoning abilities. The best that can be done is to explain to them why believing in the nonsense preached by a Jim Jones, David Kore sh, L Ron Hubbard and yes Jesus Christ is silly and insulting to thinking people. To go further is an apparent waste of time. Until such time that religious indoctrination of children by their parents is declared child abuse and illegal, and that this idea is observed world wide, we are doomed to a life of terror and subservience to the religious crowd. After all, they are in the majority.
What is also amazing is that the vast majority of people fully enjoy and are enamored of the technological acchievments (air and ground travel, electronics, medical, astronomical, etc) produced by the brightest of human beings, yet when 93% of the members of the national academy of science (according to Richard Dawkins) admit to being atheist, the majority of the populace chooses instead to follow the teachings of idiots like Jerry Falwell.
Report thisBy Rob, August 23, 2007 at 5:04 am #
Leefeller,
I am every man who strains against the shackles of religion and intolerance. I have seen enough in my life to be leary of all revelations visited upon believers in their dreams. I am every women who struggles against injustice and cruelty invoked by mankind and presented by god(s).
I am the conscience of this world and not the insanity. I am a human being, slanted in ways that ask for answers to be grounded in love of life in this world.
I know goodness when I see it and I want more. I am an elephant headed for extinction and I am not afraid. What a short time life is and yet I have been here all my life. Suicide is not the answer to life, but rather a life spent in the sunshine of responsibility and virtue.
I am as sure that religion does harm as I am that it is untrue. I would like to have pointy ears. And a blue eye and a green eye.
Report thisThank you Bertrand Russel...l
By Leefeller, August 22, 2007 at 9:39 pm #
Rob,
Do you happen to have pointy ears and two eyes?
Met some person named Antichrist who reminds me very much of you.
The elephnts have not died, they just went to clean water.
Clear water tea
Report thisBy Rob, August 22, 2007 at 7:50 pm #
I came back to this site much as a herd of elephants linger around a dead family member. I don’t know why the site was so poorly attended, or why so many posts were destroyed? I enjoyed the dialogue and gained some sense of community about the ideas we expressed.
I know all good things must end, but it still is bittersweet. I feel we may never come this way again. As an atheist, I have prepared myself for the end and fear it not. Still I hate to linger with the dead elephants. They seem to know and yet they are not afraid. So as I go into that gentle night, I say some of us did like it here. Thank you Bertrand Russel...l
Report thisBy Shenonymous, August 22, 2007 at 5:49 pm #
One last try, have they shut down the thread? Billy are you still there? Are we dead? Naw, try the CommonDream site. We are swinging. See us at
Report thishttp://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/28/2149/
By Leefeller, August 21, 2007 at 10:02 am #
If any of you Hitchen the Kilts posters are out there in computer land. Give She’s idea a try, I did and it did not hurt. Mid Drift Mike will get to meet anitichrist, who does not seem as bad as he sounds. (could pass for Billy)
Truthdrug may have run it’s course for this tread, they may be running out of space, clabber space that is.
Unyun soop and Baggles
Report thisBy Shenonymous, August 21, 2007 at 8:23 am #
Leefeller, you seem to be the only one getting in. hahahaha...funny if this one does??? Try this BTD, et al
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/28/2149/
And there are only four posts there! It would be sort of like a preemptive strike
From an Unyun - SM
Spumoni
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 21, 2007 at 8:08 am #
All right one more testy, testy.
Will try to sand this windy article just because. Same logic Republicns like Marsheal use for any arguments.
Have attempted to sand a post against religion, which I found very interesting. But every attempt was lost into nevernever land. This poster talked about remembering and what he called “basic human intellectual laziness” he starts out describing the new child being an intelectually gifted being and we end up with a creature with an ever more narrow stultified brane and consciousness, tyen incapable of an origional thought. All by rigidly enforced dictums of his religious faith. The individul goes on to becomes devoid of the abi8lity to think altogether and can only remember. He ends by saying the individual can accumulate knowledge, but cannot do anything useful with i, unless it conforms with the imbecilities forced on him by his religion.
I usually like to type in my word processor, but instead did the whole thing in the Trutdog box, which is way to small for me eyes. The above concept is interesting, because I agree with the premise but not how he got there.
Well here goes
another cup of coffee
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 21, 2007 at 7:52 am #
She,
Must say the fun is less if, we cannot post anything over a few small paragraphs.
The blacklisting as others call it on the rest of Trughdog (windy kilt wearing Chompers really has been screaming) does question integrity from this site.
Checked out the Common Dreams site and could not find a Hitching post with any threads. Did find Good Riddance Turd Blossom
by Garrison Keillor, though, the title seems approriate, but the article really is not.
Well better go, I may be exceeding my word quota and this may not make it.
sunflower seeds
Report thisBy Downwind, August 21, 2007 at 7:39 am #
(Unregistered commenter)
She,
Leefeller here
Could not find any Hitchens, articles with threads? “ Good Riddance Turd Blossom” by Garrison Keillor. The name fits, but not the subject. Articles seem to be political in “Common Dream”, did not find any seems to fit in me mnd, but will keep looking,
You are correct an open forum is geat, it is was fun having Chompers drip by with his windy disertations on reincarnation, the 7 sheets to the wind and I forgot what else. The open post is important
But could be a stepping stone or temp?
Cherrios and Beer.
Report thisBy Shenonymous, August 21, 2007 at 5:57 am #
Sort of like fascist hitmen...Whatever happened to freedom of speech. CommonDreams has no limit. You should see how long some of them are. We should find a Hitchens article there and go forward??? Anyone up for it?
Magpie
Report thisBy Shenonymous, August 21, 2007 at 1:33 am #
Worried about Hemi and Billy, looks like MMC and Leefeller are making it. My short one too. Maybe if we break up comments into small bits and send however many it takes to get message across? Going to another forum kind of defeats my purpose of having it open to any and all. We might get somewhat inbred otherwise. What other forums are you posting to?
I was able to preview this one. Weird.
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 20, 2007 at 9:17 pm #
Hitchen Posters,
We could create an Unyun Hitchin Post at Google? If you want to remain agronomist’s, (I have had to work with them) you can change to a different name email address? You can reach me at Leefeller at wildblue dot net, my last name is Guy. Now all I have to do is check?
Truthdig has become strangedig, at least annoying.
Yes, sleepytime tea
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 20, 2007 at 8:52 pm #
All right, I think they are nicking us on the number of words, my other post did not go through, it was not up to Chomper’s windy stuff, but it was a lot bigger than these, if this one get’s through?
Homomade Strawberry Icecream
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 20, 2007 at 8:44 pm #
Oh! Now it works?
Fresh garden tomatoes and grass fed burgers.
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 20, 2007 at 8:42 pm #
She,
For the last couple of days, we have been audited or not posted, the problem or cause has not been brought to our attention. This seems to be all over Truthdig.
I suspect they are trying to keep some posters short?
When I hit preview it acts like it submits and does not post.
Truthdig or someone else is causing this to happen, I think it is Mid drift Mike!
Report thisBy Shenonymous, August 20, 2007 at 8:17 pm #
Hi all, I’m trying to return to the forum, but it isn’t working right. Leefeller got in somehow. Anyone know what’s wrong?
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 20, 2007 at 7:37 am #
Ok folks,
I have tried to post several different posts, but when I tried to preview they say I submitted them? Then they did not come up. If they did you will have three of the same posts.
Maybe I am becoming as windy as Chompers and Truthdig is culling my posts. Oh well!
Second cup of coffee
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 19, 2007 at 3:10 pm #
Billy,
Your words paint more than a few pictures.
“Spear-stabbed Jesus Jackets with nail-hole gloves and sneekers, a hat-0-thorns (seasonably adjustable with halo or horns depending on the weather), Jesus Jeans and, most importantly, Randall Terry Facial-Diapers!”
Needed that!
Iniie and outie burger with Unyun and fries
Report thisBy Rob, August 18, 2007 at 7:11 pm #
Thanks Mike.
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 18, 2007 at 10:00 am #
Not tied to the Hitchen post but,
Do not know how Hitchen’s would feel about this, but,
I bet we could make a killing (maybe for real) designing and marketing a humblepie Jesus Jacket, we could all become wealthy or cease to exist depending on the market.
What would an Avowing Atheist jacket look like? We could get Hitchen’s to be our poster guy.
For Michael we could have an up the arse fence post agnostic jacket. How about Berka’s for Moslem men, it could have a hat that looks like the hard hat with two bottles of beer, instead it would have two claw hammers on springs. Hitchen’s writes about some of the problems Moslem men have, this may help them see the light.
There is a Moslem lady making a killing on Berka swim suits. (Not bee keepers suits) they look more like the old 1880’s swim fashions.
Natural no bee keepers suits not smoke, wild crazy man
Report thisReal bee honey
By Rob, August 18, 2007 at 5:07 am #
Mike Mid-City
I am the antichrist and I do get to define my impression of you. The reason for using the bible to discuss christianity is that there is no other body of work to define your beliefs in imaginary people.
It is easy diatribe to say that I just haven’t read the bible with the right understanding. You would think that the creator of your universe could make his book more coherent. jesus was obviously illiterate and never wrote anything down. The only thing his father could writewas his ten commandments and what wonderful laws to live by those turned out to be.
Christopher Hitchens was way too kind in his assessment of religion. He failed to mention the incredulous, copius amounts of treasure spent everyday on new bigger better churches in this country. Or the free ride churches enjoy without so much as a morsel of taxes paid.
To pity me is to waste your time, but you were taught to do that at the weekly ho-downs on god’s day of rest. Did you know we had “blue-laws” in my city until 1996. It took Wal-Mart, that other bastion of humanity, to break them up. For those of you that don’t know “blue laws” they were set up to prohibit, under penalty of law, items from being purchased on sundays. Seems god not only needed the rest, but hated the sound of cash registers on his day off. That’s why he don’t use cash registers in churchs. And usually there is soft cloth in the bottom of the offereing plate so the coins don’t make a sound. (That’s where the phrase “hush money” comes from). You could buy nothing before 12 o’clock on sunday and weird items after 12. No toothbrush on sunday, but toothpaste after 12. Wal-Mart started by placing a rope down the aisle to separate the ‘can buy’ items from the ‘can’t buy’ items. I kid you not. The jesus freaks were responsible for this insanity. Finally, the gods of Wal-Mart prevailed and now we can buy toilet paper on sunday. Nothing says ‘jesus’ like a freshly wiped bottom.
If I appear ‘wed’ to your bible, think what you would do if atheists had a book.
I noticed that following a plea to all atheists to join the scientology plan for life that we weren’t getting posted. jesus can only put up with so much, I suppose.
Thank you, Mark Twain.
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 17, 2007 at 5:38 pm #
How the Hitchen’s are you, I figure this is a off topic testy to see if I can beat the crawler.
Hitchen’s Hitchen’s
Hitch up those damn kilts and make a dash for the spider, god damn those heretics or just the heck with them anyway.
How about some
Moth Balls
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 17, 2007 at 7:51 am #
Lee,
“Religion Poisons Everything” and then they use a “web crawler/internet spider” to eliminate off topic comments.
Spider Chow
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 17, 2007 at 6:30 am #
Hi Folks,
Some of the posts are coming out with text of post just the name of the poster, are you guys getting this or is it my computer or is Truthdig becoming Truthdog?
It is not just happening to the Hitchen Post but others as well
Moring cup of coffee and a trumpet
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 16, 2007 at 7:23 pm #
Jeff,
Some of my posts have come out like yours, your point is well taken, but not sure I agree.
Grapefrut, pepper salad with rasins, dates and nuts
Report thisBy Jeff, August 16, 2007 at 1:49 pm #
(Unregistered commenter)
All,
I appreciate the natural distaste you all have for religion. I suggest that the answer to society’s woes is not to do away with it, but to embrace a refined version.
Religion is antiquated – restrained by its own doctrine. But should we ignore the intuitive notion that we are all immortal spiritual beings? A civilization without insanity, without criminals, and without war, where the able can prosper and honest beings can have rights, and where man is free to rise to greater heights – These are the aims of Scientology. The processes of Scientology deliver sound, relevant solutions that appeal to the believer and nonbeliever, alike.
We, like the atheist, demand that no beliefs should be forced as “true” on anyone. What is true for you is what you have observed yourself. Thus, the tenets of Scientology are expected to be tested and seen to either be true or not by Scientology practitioners.
I’ve read through many of your posts and I deduce that the transition from atheist to Scientologist would be a natural process. Enlightenment is advertised in many faiths; Scientology is the only method that delivers.
Jeff
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 16, 2007 at 1:32 pm #
Mike Mid-City,
Your apology is accepted and I offer you mine.
It takes two to argue. (At least let’s hope so.)
You are still as big a person as I first imagined.
Let’s agree to disagree and continue our thread
connection as amiably as possible.
Like the Amish say:
“Too soon we grow old, too late we grow smart.”
Thanks Mike, you’re a mensch!
Report thisBy Rob, August 16, 2007 at 12:10 pm #
I can not tell you how incredulous I am when I read that religion is evolving and the pope might come to see that women and homosexuals are indeed human beings, and jesus is just misunderstood and all that christians ever wanted was love and to be understood!
First, as Christopher Hitchens says without stuttering, religion poisons everything.
Let’s first agree on a definition of christianity and god and the bible so that we are all on the same page. The very least that should be said of a christian is that he ‘believes’ that jesus is the son of god and was sent here to absolve us of our sin to seek knowledge. Are all you christians with me so far? If not, do not read any further. You are not a christian.
Now the above assertion implies that you ‘believe’ in a god and his son. You can not have jesus without his father. Where did you ever hear of this jesus h crist? The only source is the jewish/gentile bible. No other historian was drugged up enough to writesuch fantastical stories.
Bear with me for a little longer. This concludes that this bible is either the word of god or it is not. Because we find much of it pure filth and nonsensical jibberish does not mean you get to pick the parts you like and don’t like. I know you don’t want to own up to the bible as being written by the creator of your universe, but its your only source for knowing jesus and his father, god almighty.
Now add to this insult that you have not read the bible as a book and that you resent the fact that many non-believers such as myself have read it and you can see how incredulous I am with your view of jesus as your moral guide.
I can imagine that the criticism of the above road to logic and rational thought will be that I dare use the words of the very book you are betting eternity on.
There is ‘No’ jesus except the one in the bible and reconstucting jesus in your own image is unexceptable. May I so humbly suggest that you abandon the bible and ‘that’ jesus and start all fresh with another super-human. Give him a name that doesn’t come from the ‘good book.’ Give him your name perhaps. You can’t hold a straw to the atrocities carried out by the former.
And Stay away from our children. Their minds have enough to straighten out as it is.
How’s that for an atheist’s point of view? Indeed. Thank you Charles Bradlaugh.
Report thisBy -Michael, August 16, 2007 at 12:06 pm #
Re: #95455 by Hemi* on 8/16 at 10:49 am
Hemi:
Interesting. I always thought the phrase meant “an unattainable prize”. It seems that the proper definition is much more ominous.
Re: Our discussion - I think that regardless of the originality and practicality of the ideas, there is usually an opening to collect something useful. Even the most mundane conversations can hold a gem of wisdom.
Cheese soup (in one of those hollowed-out rye bread bowls) - Michael
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 16, 2007 at 10:49 am #
Michael,
Here we are fervently discussing pro/con Bible what ifs. At times I find myself distracted by the process and then the thoughts resurface that reform is slow, people like their comfort zones and I am not the first to have these thoughts. So, I’m thinking our discussion is very “pie in the sky”. Then I started thinking what does that phrase really mean, am I using it correctly?
I looked up the history of the phrase. It originated with the “Wobblies”, the Industrial Workers of the World organization from around 1905. (That sparked a few dim memories from high school history! And no, not the Class of ‘05!) The story is the labor group had a songbook of parodies of popular songs and hymns that were used in their rallies etc… At this same time the Salvation Army was actively trying to save the souls of unemployed laborers, most of whom were literally hungry. The laborers had the attitude of forget saving our souls, if you want to help us give us something to eat. The Salvationists were said to have been unwaveringly focused on the soul saving and promoting that the workers would get their rewards in heaven for having suffered on earth.
Following are partial lyrics to the “The Preacher and the Slave”, a parody of the Salvation Army hymn, In the Sweet Bye and Bye, where the phrase “pie in the sky” originated. The writer of the lyrics is recorded as IWW notable Joe Hill, a Swedish-born immigrant to the USA.
Long-haired preachers come out every night,
Try to tell you what’s wrong and what’s right;
But when asked how ‘bout something to eat
They will answer with voices so sweet:
CHORUS:
You will eat, bye and bye,
In that glorious land above the sky;
Work and pray, live on hay,
You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.
And so the meaning is:
“A promise of heaven, while continuing to suffer in this life.” – phrases.org.uk
Thanks to http://www.worldwidewords.org and http://www.phrases.org.uk as sources of this information.
I found this interesting in that the meaning intersects our discussion. (I had in mind that it meant something like “under optimum conditions”.) You and the others might have already known of this, I just thought it was an interesting bit to share.
Cheese Doodles
Report thisBy -Michael, August 16, 2007 at 7:59 am #
Re: #95224 by Hemi* on 8/15 at 2:29 pm
“Yes, but [JF] gains cred… …based on unsound morals also contained in the scriptures.”
It’s sadly true that JF had a substantial following. I furtively dream that there is a heaven and JF is met by St. Peter who has his arm around his (after)life partner, Liberace (who is gleefully playing a pleasant welcome-to-heaven melody).
Religious-America is in the midst of a painfully slow evolution towards respect, dignity and acceptance of other-than-white-Christian-heterosexual-non disabled-males. I agree that the Bible has been used as a powerful tool to perpetuate intolerance. The very same Bible, however, has been used to break down these barriers.
If history is an indicator, the church (Pope John Paul IV?) will eventually develop an enlightened understanding of the Golden Rule. Females and homosexuals will share equal status with their hetero-male counterparts (I have a dream).
Who can argue? There are a plethora of astute theologians and laypersons who wrestle with the controversial teachings of the Bible. I lament that their voice is not more resonant.
Green eggs and ham - Michael
Report thisBy -Michael, August 16, 2007 at 7:57 am #
Re: #95230 by Billy the Dik on 8/15 at 2:55 pm
Enthusiastically accepted. I look forward to a dry pillow on which to lay my weary nugget tonight.
Sleepytime herbal tea - Michael
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 15, 2007 at 2:29 pm #
Michael,
Re:
“I was obviously refering to sound morals, not some bullshit JF said.”
Yes, but he gains cred (not with us) because his bullshit is based on unsound morals also contained in the scriptures. He can quote scripture as backing and who can argue? You know what I mean. Why give the likes of him any basis?
Chilean Sea Bass
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 15, 2007 at 12:45 pm #
Mid Mike City,
You said many different things but this one calls me to question.
You stated:
“Every little biblical passage the is negative is held up to light and every positive passage dismissed out of hand.”
First of all I have no concept of sin, your opinion that the Atheists in this post are focusing on all the little biblical passages that are negative, I hope does not hold water and is just frustration on your part. You have called attention to the positive and done which is and would quite fine.
The concept of right from wrong, according to what? The Bible, Law, you, me or Hemi. We may not all agree on what is right. Now the bible, I suppose provides some guidelines for people to work from. Since the Aztecs ripped out some poor persons heart every day to make the sun, come up, this seems negative to me, especially if you are that person. If the world was not flat maybe they could have got the message in Aztec land. I do not have extensive knowledge of the Aztecs, so I cannot provide any positive insight into their religion.
Michael seems correct (really tempted to give him a positive negative here, because he loves to do that to me?) at least I agree with his premise, our western society has evolved around values from the J. Christian religions, but if you search further, they originally may have been plagiarized them from many other societies, and placed some in the bible.
We seem to be stuck on the the Christian religion as a template for women abuse, and I would hope that someone could enlighten us to other religions too.
Mid Mike City,
My respect for you and your religion is not the same. However I do respect your feelings about your religion. In the past, I have felt that you had the same respect and opinions about the Heathens and others on the thread, I believe it to still be true.
Tuna salad
Report thisBy -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 12:22 pm #
Re: #95134 by Mike Mid-City on 8/15 at 9:57 am
Re: Holding the church responsible
I don’t know if they are holding it responsible. They illuminate the church’s indiscretions to bolster the “religion poisons everything” mantra. This is fine for the first couple of exchanges, but it’s not very challenging and it really gets old after a while. While history is important, I feel that an argument of present conditions is more relevant.
Re: All of these fine folks have been convinced by life that there is no higher being then they themselves are.
To you, this is a stand-alone statement intended to elicit a certain response. An atheist is going to simply shrug and say, “yeah?… and?”
As for your skirmish with Hemi: Although thick skin is required attire, you should still steer clear of certain taboo topics. Words hurt - Evidenced by my tear-laden pillow on those lonely nights with a print-out of Billy’s comments clutched in my fist. Take the high road. I’ll take the low road. And I’ll get to Doug’s house before ye.
Oatcakes and chutney - Michael
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 15, 2007 at 12:13 pm #
Is it a bad beach day on the left coast?
Here we go,
“Every little biblical passage the is negative is held up to light and every positive passage dismissed out of hand.” MMC
The negative IS held up to light and why not? The positive is not dismissed, it is simply shown to exist and have existed before and apart from the Bible.
“Then mention the possibility of hell and they are like a bunch of little school girls. Oh your mean, you shouldn’t bring someone’s wife into this. We don’t believe in God but it’s just plain rude and mean. Bull shit!” MMC
What are “little school girls” like? I didn’t say you were mean Mike. I said you were typically Christian. You said that you are plain rude and mean.
“Well Hemi brought up HIS WIFE and talked about her life in the church and her service to God and how they decided to get out of the church.” - MMC
Oh MOM!!! Hemi pinched me! Hmmm, I shouldn’t bring up my wife? You don’t bring up your wife? I barely scratched the surface of why and “How we decided”. Tell us all “How we decided”! You are carrying on your own conversation.
“If they were practicing, believing R.C.s then they themselves held this position. But now Hemi has decided that he is the highest form of spirit in the universe the rest of the world is stupid.” - MMC
Held what position? Sorry Mike, despite what you think, this was and is our position. We believe(d) in many roads to God (and now a moral life). We see people in the light of their deeds not their beliefs. We discuss our beliefs (or non) openly. We look for the best in people. We try to help others in need. We keep our minds open to new ideas. Nothing has changed in our position aside from the invisible guy. Now I decided what? I described myself as the highest form of spirit? Where? When? The rest of the world is stupid? Where are you getting this? I don’t think my responses were that cryptic.
“Well girls, (excuses to She) there is a pony and this shit is the result.” MMC
Why apologize for any comment you make Mike? Is She your kind of non-believer?
PB&J;
Report thisBy -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 11:21 am #
Re: #95119 by Hemi* on 8/15 at 9:11 am
I was obviously refering to sound morals, not some bullshit JF said. Picking on JF is like shooting fish in a barrel. Come on, man (or other non-gender specific reference to the reader).
Blackened Salmon - Michael
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 15, 2007 at 9:11 am #
Re: #95081 by -Michael
“Having grown up in a Judea Christian society, I suggest that everyone in America has incorporated Christian morals.”
Agreed.
“I do not believe the homosexual community deserves minority status. One’s misbehavior does not qualify him or her for minority status. Blacks, Hispanics, women, etc. are God-ordained minorities who do indeed deserve minority status.” - Jerry Falwell in USA Today
Promoting homophobia and then blacks, Hispanics and women are “God-ordained” minorities? Where else could this bigot find his ammunition?
Fig Newtons (Strawberry too!)
Report thisBy -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 7:25 am #
• Re: #94989 by Hemi* on 8/14 at 9:30 pm
“This too proves the Bible confusing and worthless as a morality guide.”
This goes back to our ‘cherry-picking’ discussion.
Having grown up in a Judea Christian society, I suggest that everyone in America has incorporated Christian morals. Calling it worthless is throwing stones in one’s glass house.
Crab legs - Michael
Report thisBy -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 7:14 am #
Re: #94885 by Mike Mid-City on 8/14 at 12:33 pm
“There can be no reprieve for the church today for the sins of the church in the past.”
Why not? To forgive is divine.
I fully accept Pope John Paul II’s apology for its past misogynistic misdeeds. He couldn’t come to terms with all of the church’s anti-women transgressions, but… baby steps.
Miso soup
Report thisBy -Michael, August 15, 2007 at 6:59 am #
Re: #94858 by Leefeller on 8/14 at 10:51 am
“Misogyny is specific to the hatred of marriage”
Pardon my ignorance, but… Huh?
Hummus - Michael
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 15, 2007 at 5:47 am #
Mike Mid-City,
“Well how would a wish you to hell bother someone who doesn’t believe in God or Heaven or Hell?
It doesn’t exist for you and it don’t matter right?” - MMC
Your wish does not bother me. Right you are sir.
You are catching on. I think you are actually
reading my responses. I can’t be certain.
“You brought your wife into it.” MMC
I always do. Great, you are reading my responses! She does the same for me. She is truly my “partner” in life. I am very fortunate to have a loving friend who keeps me grounded in a confusing sometimes hate filled world.
Chips and dip
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 9:30 pm #
Re: #94854 by -Michael “For every example of misogyny in the Bible, there is a lesson that contradicts this behavior.”
This too proves the Bible confusing and worthless as a morality guide. The same contradictory plots, people and actions exist in soap operas and they are merely entertainment. Let’s quote “All My Children” in every court house. We can be sworn in with one hand on the TV Guide. We can ask Susan Lucci to pose wearing a toga and blindfold while holding a sword and scale and we’re good to go. So help me Judge Judy!
Mini pretzels
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 14, 2007 at 8:26 pm #
For fun,
“tree fort. “No Girls Allowed.” Surprised yee old memory is still working, Billy reminded me of when I was about 8 or 9 years old, we used to spend our summers in the Redwoods. A few friends and I made a fort out of an old burned out redwood stump. One of the first things we did was make a sign, “No Grills alowd”, needless to say we never had a BBQ.
Blather for Michael and
Fresh picked Strawberry’s
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 8:18 pm #
Re: #94960 by Billy the Dik
Thanks for that Billy. But as far as “I don’t see anything wrong with swipes at one’s man or womanhood” is concerned, speak for yourself. If I’m on the receiving end of one more swipe I’ll have an “innie”!
Coctail weenies
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 7:58 pm #
Re: #94918 by Mike Mid-City
“Your a trip Hemi.
And your forcing your wife into your trip to hell.
Enjoy.”
Mike, that typical Christian sentiment and response was not unexpected. There’s always that “you’ll go to hell” in the back of our minds. That’s a vile, human sentiment, I’m rather certain you’d agree, and would be very alien to an “all-powerful, all loving, all knowing, all forgiving creator”. (There’s another in that multitude of reasons.) We are both only human despite our differing beliefs. When I was confronted on my Christian beliefs in the past, I too easily lost sight of “judge not”, “turn the other cheek” and “blessed are the peacemakers”. It’s a tough row to hoe.
I think this is one of those times when we both should consider we have not walked in the other man’s moccasins. I wish for you only the best life possible following in the footsteps of Jesus. I responded to you truthfully. Sorry for goading you into an uncharacteristic response if in fact I did. I have an affinity for pissing contests.
By the way, I couldn’t force my wife to go anywhere.
Bread
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 7:01 pm #
Re: #94911 by Leefeller
Thank you Leefeller. I also enjoy learning from and about you and everyone here.
I admit that I could have responded to Mike in a more passive and less irritating manner or simply not responded. Perhaps Mike was questioning without want of an answer. The subject matter leads us time and again to poking a finger in each other’s chests. It’s apparently the nature of the beast or should I say beasts? I did however answer truthfully.
Coffee Coolata
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 14, 2007 at 3:37 pm #
Hemi,
Response to your last trip post.
Must say, I feel both humbled and flattered to be aboard, riding the Hitchen post with you, and of course all the rest of our motley crew. Feel like I am on a space ship destenation unknown, comfortable just the same.
Thanks all
French pressed java
Report thisBy Hemi*, August 14, 2007 at 2:59 pm #
Re: #94855 by Mike Mid-City
“Hemi,
I’m a trip?
You change your mind about being in a church based on a article about a self loathing suicidal clown who claims that Dr. M. L. King Jr. wasn’t a Christian.”
Yes, you’re a trip. Who said that was my reason? My mind was made up many months ago. A few of my numerous reasons have come out here in various discussions. The majority of my reasons you have not heard. That I am now off a corrupt preacher’s mailing list makes for one less source of irritation. I didn’t bother earlier thinking it better “the devil you know”. But on review (thanks to your questioning) it was simply irritating to read about the ongoing nonsense distracting my family, friends and neighbors from the inner workings of a cult. For clarity Mike, despite my distaste for my former place of worship, I think your situation is likely every bit as sincere and beneficial as you describe. You might ask then, why not simply go to another (non-corrupt) Church? That was considered, discussed and a number of those same reasons (you have not heard) answered that in the negative. I hope that clears things up, I’m not particularly fond of or influenced by Hitchens. I agree and disagree on various points.
Not that you asked but simply to show that I have done extensive research in making my decision, I would like to offer you a little more information. My wife is a near constant influence on my thinking and has been a great sounding board and confidant when it comes to theology. If I had to list authors/philosophers/theologians who have had some influence on my beliefs, they would be Hyam Maccoby (a British Jewish scholar), Robert Green Ingersoll (the Civil War veteran and orator), Julia Sweeney (former Catholic, comedienne, cancer survivor and author) and Joseph Campbell (Catholic raised, American mythology professor, writer, and orator). Julia Sweeney was a former cast member on Saturday Night Live. You might be familiar with Campbell from the PBS series: Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth. In this very popular series Campbell was interviewed by Bill Moyers. There are likely others but these four come readily to mind.
Now how about you Mike? Why are you wasting your time on me? I don’t mind. I’m just curious as to why with all of the needy, humble, accepting people you run into, that would appreciate your time and attention, you devote even a little of your time to sparring (perhaps nit-picking) with a non-believer? Perhaps this is not a waste of your time and there’s something going on here that I don’t perceive. I can’t imagine that my participating and comments are a problem for you. Do you feel you have to challenge my non-belief? Your latest line of questioning seems more personal than the general discussions we have. Have I insulted you?
Green Tea
Report thisBy Leefeller, August 14, 2007 at 10:51 am #
Misogyny is specific to the hatred of marriage, which may be a small part of what I was trying to discuss, y include both sexes male and female could hate marrage.
Report thisBy -Michael, August 14, 2007 at 10:19 am