“had Arafat been more than a hollow man, the Israelis
would have a deal and been out years ago. “

“had Arafat been more than a hollow man”; the Mossad whould have put a bullet in his head years ago!

tic,

has gone above and beyond merely deploring Israeli excess.

Correct, if it wasn’t for the unregulated, racist and discriminatory pro-israel lobby’s who drone on and on over the airways as they do here in Washington DC on WTOP, bribing, blackmailing and outright threatening the congress and U.S. government officials, the travesty called israel would have been wrapped up in the 60’s.

It is only by America’s continued blindered foreign policies that israel persists in its current form.

“Then the question becomes, why are so many here on TruthDig under the impression that Jews should be singled-out for condemnation? - The answer to that question is many and varied.”

Well, listen here o questioner: when you claim to be an enlightened democracy and to have the most ‘moral army in the world’ people expect much, much better than the disgraceful, inhuman, racist and genocidal reality that is Israel’s government and the IDF. That’s why. I have informed myself and that’s why I condemn Israel for it’s crimes against humanity and against international law. I’ve condemned every fascist pack of jackals, without exception, and regardless of what religion they are and I reserve the right to condemn the Israeli pack of jackals too. I, for example, have never supported Egypt under Mubarak or Syria under Assad or Libya under Gaddafi and I never supported George W. Bush or Dick Cheney either, I never supported apartheid in South Africa so why would I support it in and around Israel? I’ve always condemned Hitler’s brand of lunacy and I don’t see why I should not condemn it in Israel too. I don’t support what David Cameron is doing in Britain either although he’s too cunning as yet to send in the storm troopers but it will come to that in the end. It always does, whenever the right decides to inflict injustice on others legally or militarily. As Israel has for decades and continues to do.

Israel hasn’t any right to the West Bank, Howard….and
no one at all says that they do….including the
Israeli High Court….

the Israelis hold the Bank in “belligerent occupation”
nothing more and the longer they hold it the worse it
is for everyone, particularly the Israelis.

had Arafat been more than a hollow man, the Israelis
would have a deal and been out years ago.

Israel has a right to the West Bank.  No one complained when Jordan occupied it for 19 years.  Why did they not give it someone else in all that time?

maybe Israel will give some of the land to the Pal’s…  the minute they will sit down and offer a secure peace, instead of a program and a constant call to eliminate and destroy Israel.

Israel could be their best friend. Everyone else just gives them ’ lip support’. Pal’s are led by extreme leaders who will NOT make a peace.

Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land

How Israel manipulates and distorts American public perceptions

“Through the voices of scholars, media critics, peace activists, religious figures, and Middle East experts, Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land carefully analyzes and explains how—through the use of language, framing and context—the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza remains hidden in the news media, and Israeli colonization of the occupied territories appears to be a defensive move rather than an offensive one.”

Click on link to watch video:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14055.htm

Israeli Checkpoints and Their Impact on Daily Life

“Israel has constructed hundreds of checkpoints and other roadblocks on Palestinian land, which restrict Palestinian travel between, and sometimes, within, their cities and towns.

Due in large part to the checkpoints and roadblocks, Palestinian movement is severely restricted. Journeys of short distances can stretch into hours when Palestinians are detained at checkpoints or forced to circumnavigate roadblocks or closed checkpoints.

Harassment, Humiliation, and Death”

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/checkpoints.html

nope… Patsy has gone above and beyond merely deploring Israeli excess.

heck no… I’m trying to figure out what you’re trying to say and making slow
progress.

do you really fail to understand that Israel has no right to keep other folks territory
despite seizing it in successful wars of defense?

Israel understands that point as does the rest of the UN.

“Patsy,,,,, grip a grip on your prejudices…”

I use to know this Black Thug who whenever the consequences of his own “thuggish” actions caught up with him he would cry, “racism”!

Should only Blacks be allowed to point out other Blacks who indulge in antisocial behavior?

It is not anti-Semitic to point out that Israel is just another Apartheid state that has a lot in common with the old South Africa. Hell, they even went so far as to attempt to sell the Racist South African Government Nuclear weapons! 

http://discernthetime.com/messageboard/showthread.php?t=9782

“According to the “top secret” minutes of 1975 meetings between Peres and then South African Defense Minster P.W. Botha, Israeli officials said they “formally offered to sell South Africa some of the nuclear-capable Jericho missiles in their arsenal,” adding that Israel would sell weapons to South Africans “in three sizes,” an apparent reference to conventional, chemical, and nuclear weapons.”

heterochromatic; it would seem that like most racist, you jump at the chance to pen the label on others first.

hetero - “far as I can recall, Israel ain’t had to cede an inch of the land that it took and which is not their own under terms of the original UN offer.”

-

Having fun, hetero?

Patsy,,,,, grip a grip on your prejudices…..Worry more about Pakistan’s nukes.

Great, national suicide by a nation armed with nukes. 

Seymour Hersh was more a visionary than one could of thought when he wrote the Sampson Option.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Samson_Option_(book)

nah,  vec…I’m really just me and IMax and I disagree about this and about the
violent intent of OWS and who knows what else…...

moonie “sockpuppet ” shit is no more than that.

heterochromatic having a disagreement with IMax;

Isn’t that called “Multiple Personality Disorder”?

again Max, Israel has not HAD to cede land….and I’m gratified that you’ve
shifted to saying, not that Israel HAS TO, but that the Arab States WANT them
to cede land…......

the point is that there hasn’t been any HAVE TO….they have indeed returned
conquered territory to the owners but always in return for considerations or
because it suited Israeli purposes.

you’re not correcting any mistake mad by me, because I never asserted that
Israel has never ceded land and I’ve no idea where you came up with the idea
that I said anything even near to that.

and history is replete with conquered land returned, whatever are you thinking
with the nonsense about never in history?

Khartoum is indeed as you describe but it’s not at all the same these days…..as
anyone who has followed the shift from the Saudis should know.

hetero, - “explain “HAD”.

-

No, I don’t think I will. 

You are still missing the point.  The demands of most Arab nations is for Israel to return lands it won in battle after being attacked from those lands.  Such a demand has never before been met.  Not in all of human history.

We should also correct your mistake in now writing that Israel has never ceded land.  Israel has ceded land several times since 1948.  The most recent examples would be the Sinai Desert in 1982 and, what you yourself have argued in the past few months, the ceding of West Bank. 

You may also not be aware that in June 1967, just over a week after Israel had faced potential destruction, Israel’s cabinet agreed to return the Sinai and Golan to Egypt and Syria, respectively, for peace agreements.  The Arab response, unified in its categorical rejection, came at a summit in Khartoum in September 1967. “No peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, and no recognition of Israel.”

Ceding land, which I believe is likely again necessary, has never brought acceptance of Israel amongst Arab/Muslim states.

Max——- explain “HAD”  far as I can recall, Israel ain’t had to cede an inch of the
land that it took and which is not their own under terms of the original UN offer.

gotta say that I’m looking forward to Obama winning and turning up the pressure,
brutally if necessary, to stop the ongoing Israeli theft

hetero,

Again you miss the point. - No other nation, in all of human history, has had to cede land after beating back aggressors.  It has simply never happened.

The above is as true as is the fact that no other nation on earth, in all of human history, after vanquishing an enemy, willingly left the vanquished their complete sovereignty.  That distinction falls to one.  The United States.

-

Diamond,

If you’ll only look at a map of ancient Palestine, where the nation’s seat of commerce and governance was located, you’ll better understand why I write the things I write. 

Unfortunate for this discussion you’re not careful enough in your reading.  Nobody here claims there exists no sub-culture referred to as Palestinian.  There are several solid reasons to believe roughly 6 million Palestinians are today living under the rule of the minority Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. - Now the question is, how has Jordan dealt with Palestinians when the minority government felt threatened? - Our answer can be found in what Arab culture refer to as the “era of regrettable events.”

Would you answer one question as honestly as you’re able?  How does Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, for example, deal with domestic dissent and/or calls for alternative rule within their respective borders as we speak? - Then the question becomes, why are so many here on TruthDig under the impression that Jews should be singled-out for condemnation? - The answer to that question is many and varied.

——-No other nation, in all of human history, has had to cede land after beating
back aggressors.——-

which is why the US retains sovereignty over Japan, I guess….and why Britain and
France retained their occupation of Germany.

such a strange thing to assert, Max…so obviously untrue.

“Howard has his history right.  Not only is Jordan 70% Palestinian today, the Kingdom of Jordan sits in the middle of what was once Palestine.  Jordan is, literally, the historic state of Palestine.”

Oh God, not that old lie again. This must mean that the Palestinians never existed. Now wouldn’t that be fine and dandy but the problem is they did and they do and re-writing ancient history won’t fix that.

‘It might be wise to forget the Israeli’s for a while and begin thinking of how you’re going to survive the radiation.  Let Bebe the spear chucker fight his own war.’

Some sense on the subject at last. Well, on two subjects: nuclear power and Israel. Only in a completely submissive society such as Japan’s where non-conformity is unheard of, could nuclear reactors have been built all over one of the most earthquake prone areas in the world and one that was hit with two nuclear bombs at the end of world war II to boot. If the radioactive mess in Japan is not cleaned up, Israel will be the least of anybody’s worries. The problem is all those clever people who make nuclear reactors and tell us how safe they are, don’t know how to clean up Armageddon and neither do the Israelis even though they’re well on the way to creating it, too, in their own bombastic and incredibly stupid way.

Howard has his history right.  Not only is Jordan 70% Palestinian today, the Kingdom of Jordan sits in the middle of what was once Palestine.  Jordan is, literally, the historic state of Palestine.

Until recent years only Egypt and Jordan had been willing to allow Israel its existence.  That fact alone accounts for Israel’s defensive pathologies. 

For decades Samaria and Judea, along with its inhabitants, have been horribly exploited by fellow Arabs.  Used as a foil and a fighting platform against Israel, those within these borders have been locked into these tiny areas and not allowed to immigrate into any other Arab country.  Simply put, no one would have them.  These people were useful only if made to stay put.

There is no reasonable reason for those living within the areas of Samaria or Judea to live with such horrific poverty.  Not while surrounded by Arab nations, some of the wealthiest per capita on the planet, who profess to care.

No other nation, in all of human history, has had to cede land after beating back aggressors.

Howard—- you claims are no longer correct. the Arab nations may not be happy
with Israel, but they’re willing to live with it.

Peace is blocked by the extremists in Israel and with the Palestinians….and one
non-Arab nation that has been pressuring Hamas not to agree to any peace deal.

Best hope is that Obama gets re-elected, helps bring down the rather vile
Netanyahu cabinet and the non-Arab obstructionist continues to lose its grip on
the hard-line Palestinians.

no EZ they weren’t refugees from Israel they were first refugees from a civil war
designed to prevent Israel and secondly from a war designed to conquer Israel.

yeah, they came form Israel but their grandkids and great grandkids are still living
in some pretty squalid camps and are being exploited quite thoroughly by their
“hosts”.

civil wars are usually pretty ugly, protracted,  and result from two sets of warring
parties pressing reasonable claims to being aggrieved which both prefer to
reconciliation and peaceful co-existence.

22 Arab nations and they do not/and will not allow Pal’s to make a peace with Israel.  Will not help even to settle them.  Jordan is 70% palestinian and could do it. Those Arab nations who attacked Israel in ‘48, now only give lip service to helping the Pal’s.  Will not let them make peace And Pal’s are of Egyptian and Syrian stock from the get-go.  No effort or attempt to ever give them a land when Jordan and Egypt ran the west-bank and gaza for 22 years.
  Now the pal’s have been taught and instructed to demand a state only if there is removal and destruction of Israel.  Who is Israel to talk with.  Hamas ?  who outright calls to this very day for elimination of Israel?

@ heterochromatic

But they were refugees from “Israel”, right???

I suppose they could have gone to Salt Lake City, right???

PP——them Zionists didn’t force the exiles to live in those camps for generations,
their Arab hosts did.

One reason for Krugman not to comment on Israel-Palestine is that its fate is sealed.  Although the settlers are few in number they, with their allies in Israel proper and America, are politically extremely potent (because they are highly focused) and will prevent the establishment of a viable Palestinian state.  Instead, the Israeli authorities will continue to attempt to set up one or more Palestinian Bantustans.  This apartheid won’t work, because it’s too expensive, and will be succeeded by a segregationist state.  Segregation will lead to endless political trouble, also expensive, and will eventually be succeeded by a secular binational multi-confessional state with at least nominal legal and political equality for all of its citizens regardless of ancestry or religion.

Since that is what’s going to happen, there is no point in arguing about it.  There are plenty of multi-national states in the world, and Israel-Palestine, after all the verbiage, spilled blood, and wasted lives in the name of God, will join their ranks.

“Poverty, hunger, unemployment and lack of an industrial base all could be addressed and eradicated in Palestinian areas in less than ten years if surrounding Arab nations would only allow it.”

whataload

There are approximately 2.5 million Palestinians living in refugee camps who were forced there by Zionist terrorism but this guy thinks it’s the fault of “the Arabs.”

It wasn’t “the Arabs” who conducted the systematic campaign of terrorism and ethnic cleansing to force 750,000 non-Jews (most of the non-Jewish indigenous population of what is now Israel) into exile and has since continued to deny those people and their descendents their internationally recognized human right to return to their lands and homes - that would be the Zionists and the Israelis.

IMax—-the occupation and pandering to the settlers and Ultra-Orthodox is
destroying israel and will destroy it unless the Israelis take steps to find a way to
give back the land of the West Bank (and the water as well).

the Israelis take afford to wait another 30 or 40 years and then get out.

suicide of israel best thing to happen to the world, its
peace/equality/justice.
and in our world i include people who call selves “jews” even tho most of
them appear white europeans and not a bit shemitic or semitic.
and they don’t belong in palestine. they belong in europe, americas,
australia. so good riddance to such a bellicose, racist, and unjust state
set up by invasion and crimes against humanities.

Israel, for the good and the bad, act as a people surrounded by enemies.  Enemies which are often eager to do business with Israel while out of the spotlight, only to condemn the people and the state while on a domestic or global stage.  In this context every pathology we see in the state of Israel is understandable and predictable. - This is not an attempt to excuse Israel’s actions but to understand them.

Arab cultures, for the good and the bad, are notorious for their contradictions. 

The Palestinian people in Judea and Samaria are some of the most exploited people on earth.  An Arab people forced to live in abject poverty while surrounded by some of the wealthiest per capita nations on the planet.  Poverty, hunger, unemployment and lack of an industrial base all could be addressed and eradicated in Palestinian areas in less than ten years if surrounding Arab nations would only allow it.

Does Israel often exercise a heavy hand?  Obviously the answer is yes.  Does Israel often create its own problems?  Again, yes.  Has Israel built up a nearly impenetrable defensive posture which often makes it difficult to deal with?  Yes.  But none of this absolves Arab Nations of their decades long exploitation of the Palestinian people in Samaria and Judea.

-

Arab/Israeli conflicts are the perfect example of how the United States does not control the Middle East region or, for that matter, the planet.

gerard: The position Israel takes is insupportable in both practical and in ideological terms.

Agreed.Israel, it will suprise many, has a very high indutrial production index. If it could only agree on a Peace & Land Treaty with the Palestinians, it would have access to a relatively inexpensive Labor Market. This would be a great asset in leveraging those sectors heavily dependent upon un- and semi-skilled manpower.

This aside from the the basic fact that the war with the Palestinians is 60 years old. It’s time both peoples moved on to a “separate but equal” nationhood and stop the mutual bloodshed.

@ heterochromatic

I intend to check out Beinhart’s book, but I am waiting on Norman G. Finkelstein’s “Knowing To Much. Why the American Jewish Romance with Israel Is Coming to an End”.

It should be out in the next couple of weeks.

@ do over

I love links and such… so should you.

Israel is an irritant.  I’m more worried about the spent nuclear fuel rod containment vessel that is built on an upper floor of building 4 at the nuclear disaster site in Japan.  It is leaning.  A level 7 earthquake would likely topple it.  A level 7 is predicted within a year.  Tokyo would have to be completely evacuated.  The nuclear cloud would spread over the U.S. creating dangerously high levels of radiation and continue to do so.  Building 4 is so hot that repair robots break down.  It’s just a waiting game with predictable dire consequences. It might be wise to forget the Israeli’s for a while and begin thinking of how you’re going to survive the radiation.  Let Bebe the spear chucker fight his own war.

Beinart is standup all the way and Krugman is correct.

The position Israel takes is insupportable in both practical and in ideological terms. Because no one with common sense can support that position, even though they might like to support Israel for its better qualities, the politics of the Occupation regimes make true support impossible.
  Israel’s self-isolation appears to be suicidal, though I doubt that the psychology of the present dominant national attitude in Israel itself has been sufficiently studied to make a flat statement. At the very least, Israel seems to be gradually self-destructing, which only adds to the multipllicity of other stresses in that part of the world, not the least of which is U.S. intrusive policies.  As a true “friend of Israel” we could do better, IMO.