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Ear to the Ground

Why Paul Krugman Avoids Thinking About Israel

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Posted on Apr 24, 2012
Photo by Center for American Progress (CC-BY-ND)

The New York Times columnist is paid for his opinions, but he says, “like many liberal American Jews ... I basically avoid thinking about where Israel is going.” And where it’s going, writes Krugman, is “national suicide.”

Krugman’s comments deserve to be read in context, so we’ll paste his New York Times blog post below in its entirety. It was inspired by Peter Beinart’s book “The Crisis of Zionism.”

Paul Krugman of The New York Times via Glenn Greenwald:

Something I’ve been meaning to do — and still don’t have the time to do properly — is say something about Peter Beinart’s brave book The Crisis of Zionism.

The truth is that like many liberal American Jews — and most American Jews are still liberal — I basically avoid thinking about where Israel is going. It seems obvious from here that the narrow-minded policies of the current government are basically a gradual, long-run form of national suicide — and that’s bad for Jews everywhere, not to mention the world. But I have other battles to fight, and to say anything to that effect is to bring yourself under intense attack from organized groups that try to make any criticism of Israeli policies tantamount to anti-Semitism.

But it’s only right to say something on behalf of Beinart, who has predictably run into that buzzsaw. As I said, a brave man, and he deserves better.

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, May 6, 2012 at 1:20 pm Link to this comment

hetero,

Friday’s runoff election had everything to do with the battle over control of the legislature amongst two competing conservative camps.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 6, 2012 at 11:11 am Link to this comment

Imax—- i realize that the subject has personal meaning for you and understand
that you don’t wish to screw around with it.

if you explain how you think I’m incorrect, I’ll appreciate it and will not quibble
or offer any comment at all, but will private consider what you have to say.

I think that your POV should be stated for the benefit of all.


either way, thx

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, May 6, 2012 at 10:45 am Link to this comment

hetero,

There is no way I’ll get sucked into yet another meaningless debate with you.  Particularly on this subject.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, May 6, 2012 at 10:39 am Link to this comment

PHimmler, - “you are more of a propagandist than a debater..period.”

-

If by “propagandist” you mean how I never let you forget that you constantly swallow whole the narratives and grievances of the most ultra-religious and conservative leadership in Iran, well, then, I am an extremely proud and relentless propagandist.  YES I am!

When you begin taking up the causes if Liberals in Iran we’ll have a real debate.  Until then you’re nothing more than an unwitting, simple-minded, tool for religious fanatics.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, May 6, 2012 at 5:52 am Link to this comment

By IMax, May 5 at 8:30 pm

hetero,

You’re needlessly arguing over matters you don’t fully comprehend.  I’ll not debate any of this with you.

At long last a post of yours I can agree with, however I must disagree with your view of your ability to debate which is more like taking a hand full of someone elses feces and throwing them against a wall.

Maxi, you are more of a propagandist than a debater..period.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 5, 2012 at 9:48 pm Link to this comment

Patsy is not at all useful as no wins no friends and wields no influence…


contest in Iran was between Khamenei’s ultra-conservative supporters and the
even more ultra-conservative coterie surrounded Yazdi, Imax and you should
brush up before telling other people that you know better than they do…......

http://www.uskowioniran.com/2012/05/conservatives-and-religious.html

if you knew as much as you think you do, you would have known that
Ahmadinejad’s group were neutered in the previous 12 months…...

you can go back and read how Mahmoud was overruled by Khamenie on
appointments and firings, how he refused to report to work for a week in a
power play and then returned after it failed, and was called to the Majlis and
rebuked.

A group of Ahmadinejad’s aides were arrested a few months back and one of
them is now serving a prison term

http://tinyurl.com/72dpdph


so, IMax, these guys didn’t lose this last round of elections the other day, they
were beaten at the beginning of the year.

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, May 5, 2012 at 9:30 pm Link to this comment

hetero,

You’re needlessly arguing over matters you don’t fully comprehend.  I’ll not debate any of this with you.

Friday’s runoff election had everything to do with the battle over the legislature amongst two competing conservative camps.  The far more religious, ultra-conservative, camp of Ali Khamenei has trounced President Ahmadinejad supporters.  The impact of this change cannot be understated.

I chose my words very carefully.  PHimmler’s unbending support for the positions and grievances of the most theocratic leaders in Iran make him a very useful idiot in the Western world.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 5, 2012 at 5:29 pm Link to this comment

Imzx, you knucklehead….. the Majlis has no real power
and the outcome of the election was pre-arranged when
the Guardian Council ruled that dozens of the more
liberal members of the Majlis were not allowed to run
for re-election.

it’s not Patsy’s fault and you’ve no damn reason on
earth for calling him a “useful idiot”

choose your adjectives with more precision, please.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, May 5, 2012 at 4:36 pm Link to this comment

PHimmler,

The propaganda of fear and hate is paying off in solid ways.  Your party trounced Ahmadinejad supporters in Parliament.  You and your ilk have successfully ginned up support for Iran’s ultra-conservative religious leadership, you clueless, useful, idiot.

God help us all.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 4, 2012 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment

Patsy—Jews only make up 75% of the israeli population and it is diminishing every
year.—-
might even be a bit less. a lot of the last wave of Russians were not really Jewish
by birth, practice or inclination.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, May 4, 2012 at 6:32 pm Link to this comment

Anarcissie, May 4 at 5:40

The future for the Palestinians as you depict is desired by the world. If the Pals could only put aside their revenge.

tic,

Jews only make up 75% of the israeli population and it is diminishing every year.  Demographics will do israel in before the arab hordes break down the gates.  The israeli 1% are utilizing their dual citizen status to migrate out of israel which is the future site of a smoking hole.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 4, 2012 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

Ana—I understand what you’re saying, I simply find “within a few years”  “not
particularly Jewish” and Palestinians and Israelis living together with equal
rigfhts on that space to have a probability factor roughly equal to us all having
incinerated ourselves.


the Palestinians are not going to depose the Israel regime any time soon, the
Palestinians are not going to erect a regime with equal rights for everyone
regardless etc any time soon, and Israel is not going to grant the Palestinians a
voting majority any time soon….


there is no peaceful one-state solution on the horizon and there’s not that
much likelihood of a peaceful two-state deal soon unless several things change.

there’s no peace deal possible with Hamas and the settlers blocking it. both of
these groups have to change or be beaten down and it’s likely ( or less unlikely)
that Hamas is more likely to change at this point.


it sucks and that’s just the way it is.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 4, 2012 at 1:05 pm Link to this comment

All the people will still be there, as you would know
if you actually read what I wrote.  It just won’t be a
‘particularly Jewish state’ because it will be secular
and non-ancestral (or whatever you want to say the
tribal/ethnic/national caste system is—it’s
nominally ancestral.)  That is because as it absorbs
the West Bank it will absorb a large number, even maybe
a majority, of non-Jews, mostly Muslim and Christian
Arabs, and they will eventually get equal rights—
sooner rather than later if they play their cards
right.

What else do you think can possibly happen?
Israel is stuck with this, thanks to the settlers
and their Likudnik allies.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 4, 2012 at 8:11 am Link to this comment

there’s no way in hell that israel disappears in “a few years” or that it stops being
“particularly Jewish”.

I don’t know what you mean by “Said’s advice” but you can’t really think that he
has some magic wand wisdom that makes five million people disappear in short
order…I hope.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 4, 2012 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

On the contrary, the whole business could be over in a
few years.  All the Palestinians need do is take
Professor Said’s advice.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 4, 2012 at 6:52 am Link to this comment

Ana- THAT particular “eventually” ain’t one that’s within the lifetime of anyone
there ...or here.


but it would be a better one that what now exists.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 4, 2012 at 6:40 am Link to this comment

Eventually, if we don’t all incinerate ourselves, the Palestinian people will live in a secular state with equal rights for all its citizens without regard to their ancestry, language or religion.  The state will occupy the same territory as the present Israel-Palestine, and may have the same name(s), but it will not be a particularly Jewish state; it will be multi-ethnic and multi-confessional.  This outcome has ironically been ensured by the Israeli West Bank settlers and the Likud.  The only question is how long it will take to get there.

The best policy for the Palestinians will be to accept this future and move toward it as non-violently as possible.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 3, 2012 at 5:36 pm Link to this comment

the palestinian people are pretty bad off because of a shitload of different people,
nations and groups….and not least because of their own awful leadership.


it’s been too long and they deserve better. hopefully it wont be a couple of
thousand years before they have some place to call their own.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, May 3, 2012 at 2:23 pm Link to this comment

Because of dolts like maxi, the Palestinian people in Judea and Samaria are no better off than when they were taken over by the invasion of European Jewry in 48’.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, May 3, 2012 at 4:27 am Link to this comment

The Palestinian people in Judea and Samaria are, partially due to people like PatrickHenry and diamond, some of the most exploited people on earth.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 2, 2012 at 6:38 pm Link to this comment

heterochromatic, May 1 at 11:53 am:

dia—- the US didn’t “put him there” in 53. he was
ruling iran long before Mossadegh tried to depose him
and replace him.

When the Allies took control of the parts of Iran they were interested in, they deposed the reigning shah, who was thought to be maybe too soft on Naziism, and had been in any case obstructive about moving supplies to the Soviet side of the Eastern Front via Iran, and installed his son in his place. So his office and regime, such as they were, were certainly artifacts of the the occupiers, rather than any sort of domestic development.  The interventions of the 1950s were a continuation of the interventions of the 1940s.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 2, 2012 at 3:40 pm Link to this comment

the crazy-assed Evangelical Christians are indeed motherhugging nuts and the
israelis will accept their support, but they would never be trusted by Israelis any
more than they’re trusted by Americans.

they’re too f-ed-up.


I have a running argument with one of this set on her blog. She’s a retired
career USN officer and stupefyingly at odds with American policy in her claims
that nobody owns the West Bank and the Israelis need for security entitles them
to keep all the land right up to the Jordan.

to me, fundies, be they Christian, Hebrew and Muslim have more in common
with each other than with the rest of us.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, May 2, 2012 at 3:15 pm Link to this comment

tic,

Not as much as you think, Hagee and the other mothers take trips to israel regularly enough to make me think they are israeli spokespeople.

Zionists are zionists and believe somehow that lies, deceit and theft are justified.

Sad, pathetic and worthless.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 1, 2012 at 2:14 pm Link to this comment

the ultra-orthodox Jews have a lot of sway in Israel but don’t wield much influence
in the USA, Patsy. it’s the ultra-Orthodox Christians that are getting their crazy
asses kissed here.

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, May 1, 2012 at 2:09 pm Link to this comment

tic,

They’re on to ya.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/26/ultra-orthodox-jews-internet_n_1455694.html

While the ultra orthodox are a minority they wield an inordinate amount of power (kinda like a 2% minority in this does}.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/01/20121982034753751.html

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 1, 2012 at 12:53 pm Link to this comment

dia—- the US didn’t “put him there” in 53. he was ruling iran long before
Mossadegh tried to depose him and replace him.


and we sure didn’t encourage him to defeat people trying to claim their own
resources…...we didn’t support the British effort to continue paying the Iranians
peanuts

Report this

By diamond, May 1, 2012 at 12:43 pm Link to this comment

“the US didn’t turn the Shah into the clownish puppet of the brutal aristocracy that he became.”

Did I say they did? The point is, they put him there to defeat the people and anyone who defended their rights - rights to their own resources for example. That’s why Mossadegh had to go and he was only one of many who had to go for defending the rights of the people who elected them. The people who control the United States don’t understand democracy and also fear it, even though they never stop talking about it, paying lip service to something they dread - purely for public consumption. If the average voter knew what the elites say about them behind closed doors the tumbrils would already be rolling through the streets on their way to the guillotine.

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Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 1, 2012 at 8:40 am Link to this comment

heterochromatic—The difference between your account and mine is one of shading.  For example, you have Truman promising to help ‘the Iranians’ get rid of Soviet invaders, but you don’t mention which Iranians, or in what ways they were, so to speak, encouraged by Truman.  While both accounts are more or less factually correct, yours fancifully implies a background of poor Iranian peasants potentially laboring under the Stalinist lash and yearning to breathe the pure air of freedom supplied by the American military.  Why not dispense with the propagandistic style?  After all, you’re only writing for poor little old Truthdig, not the Times.

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By heterochromatic, May 1, 2012 at 7:36 am Link to this comment

Ana—- i would suggest that there’s some slight difference between being
occupied by Stalin’s red Army and having that army forced to withdraw from that
occupation rather than following their usual MO and liquifying all opposition.

I’m gonna blindly guess that the Iranian people didn’t wish to become a member
of the Soviet Empire any more than they wished to remain a (sub) member of the
British Empire.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, May 1, 2012 at 7:24 am Link to this comment

heterchromatic—I don’t see any great difference between your version and mine, practically speaking.  ‘Truman lived up to the bargain and supported the Iranians when they fought the Soviet led insurgency in the North of Iran…’ means (to me) ‘intervened militarily in favor of local friends and against local enemies’, the same as in numerous other places.  The practice is almost a definition of ‘great power’ when the behavior falls short of direct imperialism.  As I said, the U.S. (ruling class) was interested in the Athenian, not the Roman model.  It worked some places (Iran, Guatemala, Greece) and not others (Vietnam).  What did the Iranian people want?  I doubt if anyone asked them at the time.  We found that out later.

Report this

By heterochromatic, May 1, 2012 at 7:13 am Link to this comment

they’re a minority of Israelis, Patsy. Just as you don’t represent all Truthdigger,
they don’t represent all Israelis. ) and some of the ultra0Orthodox are NOT Israelis,
sonny, they’re Americans).

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, May 1, 2012 at 3:46 am Link to this comment

tic,

The ultra orthodox jews are israelis.

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 30, 2012 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

Patsy, the problem is with the ever-increasing ultra-orthodox jews, not the
Israelis.

the crazy-ass wing of Jewry operates much the same here in NYC….. including the
segregated busses…...

Report this
PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, April 30, 2012 at 5:38 pm Link to this comment

Maxi,

“You posses no real sense of shame, do you?

Not a lick, when criticism of israel is concerned.

tic,

The issies have a problem with discrimination against women too.

http://forward.com/articles/147321/clinton-shocked-at-israeli-womens-status/

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 30, 2012 at 3:36 pm Link to this comment

your impression is not quite correct. the Soviet-British plan was to occupy to
forestall a Nazi attempt to take over, and it was iran that appealed to the US to
either prevent the allied takeover or guarantee that it would end when the war
did.

FDR supplied the guarantee and Truman saw that the agreement was enforced
when Stalin refused to leave and then re-invaded after Truman forced the
Soviets out the first time.

Truman lived up to the bargain and supported the Iranians when they fought
the Soviet led insurgency in the North of Iran and Truman also lived up to our
commitments when he refused to side with Great Britain in the dispute over
nationalizing the Anglo-Iranian Oil Co that was robbing the Iranians and
abusing the Iranian laboroers.

Truman also rejected the British plan to depose Mossadegh and would not allow
the Brits to carry it out.

It was only after he left office and Ike was under the sway of the Dulles brothers
that the plan wsa approved and by that time Mossadegh had lost all support
among the middle and upper class Iranians.

Report this
Anarcissie's avatar

By Anarcissie, April 30, 2012 at 3:18 pm Link to this comment

My impression was that the U.S., Britain, and the Soviet Union agreed on occupying Iran to forestall a pro-Nazi occupation of the same.  (I am not sure how that was supposed to come about, but that was the fear.)  After the war, the U.S. plan was to establish an empire on the Athenian rather than the Roman model, and so the British and Soviets were told to get out.  The British complied because they were now a ruined satellite of the U.S., and the Soviets because their position was too exposed to be maintained in the face of serious opposition.  The U.S. soon continued to follow the Athenian model (see Thucydides) by interfering with Iran’s internal affairs while not explicitly taking control of the country.  I don’t see why any history-reading Iranians should think the U.S. was doing them any favors.

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 30, 2012 at 12:46 pm Link to this comment

dai- the canard about Khomeini and the Shah overlooks the fact that there
wouldn’t have been any Iranian independence at all if the US hadn’t forced great
Britain and the Soviet Union to withdraw from their occupations of Iran at the end
of WWII.

History is pretty complex, and despite the indefensible Operation Ajax, the US
didn’t turn the Shah into the clownish puppet of the brutal aristocracy that he
became.

Report this

By diamond, April 30, 2012 at 12:36 pm Link to this comment

“You posses no real sense of shame, do you?”

Neither does Israel. That’s the problem.

Report this

By diamond, April 30, 2012 at 12:33 pm Link to this comment

The fact is, Hetero, the present religious fundamentalist government would not even be in place in Iran if America hadn’t sent Kermit Roosevelt of the CIA into Iran in the late fifties to organize the overthrow of the democratically elected, secular leader Mohammed Mossadegh because he had dared to nationalize Iran’s oil. Mossadegh spent the rest of his life under house arrest and Pahlavi (son of an army Sergent who had decreed himself ‘emperor’ of Iran) was installed as America’s puppet. He used Iran’s dreaded secret service as a weapon of war against his own people, crushing all dissent with great brutality. This radicalized the young, the intellectuals and the clergy and Pahlavi was overthrown in the Islamic Revolution. He fled to America. One of the demands of the hostage takers at the embassy was that Pahlavi be returned to Iran to stand trial for the crimes committed while he was ‘emperor’. He was not returned, needless to say. If America didn’t at least make a show of protecting its murderous puppets it would soon have no puppets.

The government of Iran is the one Israel and America need: it’s easy to demonize and can be used to demonize all Muslims everywhere, be they liberals or conservatives or anything in between. In the final analysis America put that government there, even if it didn’t mean to. The same way they put the former contract killer, Hussein, in charge of Iraq. It seems ungrateful for America to whine about its creation especially since Iran is so useful to America (and its boss, Israel) in so many ways. Actions have consequences and these consequences cannot always be predicted but the last thing America or Israel want in Iran is a western style democracy. Who would they then have to wave around as a threat and a bogeyman in the Middle East in order to launch another colonial oil war?

And, of course, Israel uses Iran to rationalize its own atrocious activities and especially to justify its moronic violence and cruelty towards the Palestinians.

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 30, 2012 at 8:44 am Link to this comment

dia—- I’m not demonizing Iran by pointing to the vileness of the Iranian regime
any more than I’m demonizing Israel by pointing to the vileness of the
settlements.

When I say that the settlements are grossly ugly and nothing but harmful, am I
encouraging people who want to bomb Israel out of existence and would you
advise me to stay quiet?


shit is shit and not Snickers.

———


should you and I ignore that Iran executes people (by slow strangulation) for
homosexual activity?

should we ignore that iran pegs the worth of testimony of females at half the
evidentiary value of that of males?


should we ignore that when the Ayatollah came to power he had his clowns
“fire” the few female judges (including Shirin Ebadi, Iran’s Nobel Prize winner)
because women are not allowed by God to be judges?

Report this
Robert's avatar

By Robert, April 30, 2012 at 7:58 am Link to this comment

Meanwhile at the Israeli/zionist’s hasbara/propaganda asylum ward…GRYM’s paranoia has flared up badly and he is having an identity crisis…all PR & damage control attempts are not working…what to do…what to do!!!

GRYM is clever…yep clever (?) LOL ...deceptions…deflections…

Lets see…which country is this TD thread talking about…Hmmm?

Is it Iran? Is it Saudi Arabia? Is it Syria?....

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, April 30, 2012 at 5:02 am Link to this comment

Good grief Patrick.  Only bigots with specific agendas would ignore the fact that the Middle East region is largely governed by strongman dictators but, singularly condemn Israel for not being democratic enough.

You posses no real sense of shame, do you?

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, April 30, 2012 at 4:54 am Link to this comment

Ooops.  I meant me and hetero.

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, April 30, 2012 at 4:42 am Link to this comment

I have another question.

Since posting to this site I’ve been pegged as someone by the name of Rico, another by the name of Cyrena, and now GRYM.  One poster recently insisted hetero and I are the same person.  In each of these instances the “accuser” found themselves frustrated and unable to defend their respective positions.

Robert, for example, in an odd attempt to somehow discredit Israel, offered an opinion about how imported domestic laborers enjoy traveling to and working in Saudi Arabia.  After I showed Robert how his perceptions on the subject could not be further from reality he quickly changed the subject and earnestly began insisting I must be some evil, plagiarizing, lying former commenter.

What may be the reasons for this odd behavior?  If one is shown to be misguided attack another as a diversion?

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, April 30, 2012 at 3:51 am Link to this comment

Bah’ai? why not mention israels repression of the non-jews there.

http://www.alternet.org/story/13087/

Report this

By diamond, April 30, 2012 at 2:20 am Link to this comment

What is the point of demonizing Iran, Hetero? It only assists those who want to bomb it back to the stone age. And they certainly don’t need any encouragement in that area. The most important fact is that Iran has not invaded or attacked another country for centuries. Of course speaking out about these internal Iranian matters is moral but on the other hand the people who want to constantly speak out about these things because it’s Iran, don’t want to speak out about the countless atrocities committed by Israel, both inside and outside its borders or about the endless global atrocities committed by the US military and its intelligence services. Iran is a mere flyspeck on the windscreen of the world by comparison and is only subjected to such intense scrutiny because it serves Israel’s crazy, war mad purposes.

Report this

By heterochromatic, April 29, 2012 at 3:59 pm Link to this comment

dia—- you can ask me how dropping bombs on Ira will
help after you see me advocate dropping bombs on
Iran…

what I did was to offer you a chance to comment on
the treatment of the Bahi’a after you volunteered for
an opportunity

...“If someone writes an article about the burning of
churches in Nigeria I’ll be happy to comment on
it…”

seems that you decided not to offer such comment and
went in a totally other direction.

why?

Report this

By diamond, April 29, 2012 at 3:41 pm Link to this comment

“dia—- here you go.”

Yes, and now you can explain to me how dropping bombs on Iran will help the Bahai or anyone else. Israel only uses any crimes or transgressions of the religious conservatives that rule Iran (as opposed to the religious conservatives that rule Israel) as an excuse for attacking Iran militarily - not for logical reasons, but because they are themselves quite mad and on a path to national suicide. Nothing they want to do or manage to do to Iran will fix their own downward spiral. As Paul Krugman rightly points out. Any reasonably intelligent person doubts that Israel will be around by the end of this century. Not because of anything Iran does but because the state of Israel is incapable of arresting its own war mania, weapons mania, lust for land and power and wealth and its campaign of annihilation against the Palestinians and anyone who supports them. When I think of Israel I think of a coyote chewing its own paw off to get out of a trap. But in Israel’s case it’s a trap they made themselves.

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, April 29, 2012 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

imax…grym…nothing has changed from your previous/present record…you can deny all you want to…its your habits & way of life.

Your zionist hasbara is all you need…no honesty & no integrity…

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, April 29, 2012 at 2:01 pm Link to this comment

LOL….what ever are you going on about, Ding Dong?  You honestly believe that if you simply say a thing it automatically holds some odd sort of merit?

GRYM? Plagiarism? Caught?

WTF?....  Hey, if you’re unable to answer the question just say so.  Good grief….LOL

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, April 29, 2012 at 1:45 pm Link to this comment

By IMax, April 29


Robert,

“After you tell us all again how much expatriates enjoy working in Saudi Arabia perhaps you will then answer my previous question.  Particularly in light of each of our last few posts, why do Jews receive your unequaled condemnation?”

~~~~~~~~~~~

imax=go right young man(grym)... your pale diversion attempts are transparent…

When you can quote me word for word for “unequaled condemnation” of Jews, then may be, just may be you’ll have a grain size of honesty & integrity.

So go ahead…I defy you…word for word…to quote me. I am sure that you remember the last time you attempted to quote…and you failed badly.

You do remember…don’t you grym? I posted your quotes and you got caught.

Your reply was…“ooops Robert…you caught me”...

Just for the record…it was the same TD thread that you also got caught with plagiarism…   

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, April 29, 2012 at 11:59 am Link to this comment

Robert,

After you tell us all again how much expatriates enjoy working in Saudi Arabia perhaps you will then answer my previous question.  Particularly in light of each of our last few posts, why do Jews receive your unequaled condemnation?

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Robert's avatar

By Robert, April 29, 2012 at 7:40 am Link to this comment

Honestly ! ...imax=grym…hmmm…your attempt at honesty is grym…LOA


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MIGRANT WORKERS IN ISRAEL
- A Contemporary Form of Slavery

Michael Ellman & Smain Laachertm


“Through this joint report, the International Federation for Human Rights (FIDH) and the Euro-
Mediterranean Human Rights Network (EMHRN) seek to inform readers about the
reprehensible context of the use of migrant workers in Israel and to recommend the State of
Israel to take immediate action to address the human rights violations against migrant
workers.

While both the FIDH and the EMHRN acknowledge that migrant workers are employed in all
countries party to the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership,2 the situation in Israel is unique due to
the deliberate use of migrant labour to replace Palestinian workers, and this policy’s role in
relation to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.”


http://www.fidh.org/IMG/pdf/il1806a.pdf

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By Anarcissie, April 29, 2012 at 6:39 am Link to this comment

So you can see why Krugman doesn’t bother thinking about Israel.  I wonder if an explicit demonstration was necessary, though.

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By IMax, April 29, 2012 at 6:14 am Link to this comment

Robert,

Tell us all more about how domestic labor in Saudi Arabia enjoy working there.

Honestly, Robert, I can help to educate the ignorance out of you.

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By Robert, April 29, 2012 at 5:59 am Link to this comment

imax=grym...your zionist colors are truly showing; your pale tricks & hasbara are NOT moving anywhere, but right in your face.

Just like I posted previously…your plagiarism trail is still smoldering…you got caught & exposed…or may be you don’t want people on TD to know…eh!!!  LOA….

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By IMax, April 29, 2012 at 3:18 am Link to this comment

Robert - “There are tens of thousands of expatriates who have been living & working for decades in Saudi Arabia… they must be satisfied with being there or else they would not go there or stay long.”

-

Not in Mecca they’re not.

How much of a bigot does one need to be to believe that all who don’t hate Jews must be Jewish (I can help to educate the ignorance out of you, Robert)?

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By heterochromatic, April 28, 2012 at 8:54 pm Link to this comment

Max—- diamond is a living thinking sane human being…

of course, there are assheads like the one one flight
down also.

got a brainpan full of pre-chewed bubble gum and book
paste.

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By Robert, April 28, 2012 at 8:02 pm Link to this comment

Imax=Go Right Young Man (GRYM)...

Your apartheid Israel worked hand-in-hand for decades with the dictator of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak, to keep their choking grip on the Palestinians in Gaza. Surely you know that GRYM!

You keep attempting to use that ole “anti-semitism” trick ... over & over… I have no issues with Judaism at all; its Israel’s policies & their disregard for Palestinians/Arabs lives, their brutal occupation, their theft of Palestinian Land & their resources…etc…

BTW, I don’t need to go to Mecca. There are tens of thousands of expatriates who have been living & working for decades in Saudi Arabia…they must be satisfied with being there or else they would not go there or stay long.

And there are about 30,000 Jews who live in Iran, practice their religion, have businesses, shops…etc…And they don’t want to leave to go Israel. Although Israel has tried to lure them to get out.

Imax=GRYM…your damn hasbara is not working for you on TD…its flying back in your face.

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By IMax, April 28, 2012 at 5:01 pm Link to this comment

Diamond,

I have no objection to your many claims of support for humanity.  It’s your worldview I object to.

In a region rife with brutality and injustice, blatant discriminations and atrocities, under some of the most brutal dictatorial minority held powers you undoubtedly reserve your constant condemnations for Jews.  Like Robert you focus narrowly on your sense of outrage.

If I ask each of you about the treatment of dissenters in Syria today you’ll both reply in a manner which faults the United States and Israel.  It’s just too odd to argue with.

As for Iran.  You can tell me every day how much you disagree with the radically conservative Theocratic Iranian government.  Making the claim will not make me forget how you and several others, both here and abroad, offer identical grievances, nearly verbatim, in regards to the Big and Little Satan.  It’s stunning to me still that so many here align themselves with dictators in order to draw attention to your causes.  Including a shared exploitation of Palestinians trapped in Samaria and Judea.

-

Robert,

Enter Mecca then return here to highlight apartheid Israel.

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By diamond, April 28, 2012 at 3:20 pm Link to this comment

“No, you reserve your constant condemnation for Jews.”

That is a lie. All I’ve ever said about Iran is that they haven’t attacked any other nation for at least two hundred years while America and Israel’s behavior on that front speaks for itself and is too well documented to need yet more airing. Jews have lived peacefully in Iran since the time of the first temple and have never been subjected to the genocidal mania that is the lot of Muslims by the Israelis. The Iranian religious conservatives don’t have my sympathy. No conservatives of any religion have my sympathy or support. I support humanity overall and I don’t care what religion they are. That is what you really find unforgivable. If someone writes an article about the burning of churches in Nigeria I’ll be happy to comment on it - along with the activities of Shell and various other colonial psychopaths who have devastated parts of that country.

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By heterochromatic, April 28, 2012 at 1:05 pm Link to this comment

PH—- it boycotts and sanctions succeed in bringing down the Iranian theocracy,
I’m all for using it aghainst the settlements.

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By heterochromatic, April 28, 2012 at 12:55 pm Link to this comment

IMax—- “You’ve trained to be needlessly argumentative?”


oh yeah ?, who sez anything about needlessly????

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By PatrickHenry, April 28, 2012 at 12:30 pm Link to this comment

Disputatious?

Around here its called being an asshole.

Finally after years of blacklisting.

http://www.bdsmovement.net/

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By IMax, April 28, 2012 at 11:50 am Link to this comment

hetero,

You’ve trained to be needlessly argumentative?

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By heterochromatic, April 28, 2012 at 9:21 am Link to this comment

IMax——if you’re asking if some of the folks here are simply unreasonable critics
of Israel…... the answer is yes…. but even so, some of the criticisms are valid and
have to be considered despite that.


and yeah, I am disputatious.,,,, by both inclination and training.

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By IMax, April 28, 2012 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

hetero, - “They no longer come close to fitting the the image that they profess to be their reality.”

-

I agree.  But, for the life of me, I have no idea what this has to do with the questions I asked.

I believe you simply enjoy arguing for the sake of it.

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By heterochromatic, April 28, 2012 at 7:35 am Link to this comment

IMax——- the motivation of this bunch becomes less
important when the criticisms being authored have
validity.

Just as calling me a Zio-troll when I tell some crazy
person “No I saw the second plane and it wasn’t
green” is incoherent nonsense and does nothing to
change the fact, the supposed biases or sensitivities
of critics of Israel don’t change the facts.

Israel deserves criticism for things, I believe a
great deal of criticism is necessary and desirable
given the way that the Israelis conduct their
occupation and a few important other things.

They no longer come close to fitting the the image
that they profess to be their reality.

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By Robert, April 28, 2012 at 7:33 am Link to this comment

By IMax, April 27

“In Saudi Arabia Christians and Jews worship in secret in private homes.  Not one church or synagog exists in the entire nation.  Christians and Jews cannot become Saudi citizens.  Period.  Any and all public displays of Christian or Jewish worship results in immediate arrest and deportation - usually preceded by physical beatings.”

~~~~~~~~~~~


IMax=go right young man(GRYM)...


Your Apartheid Israel heavily restricts Moslem & Christian Palestinians living in the Israeli Occupied West Bank from entering Jerusalem to worship at their Holy places. They cannot enter to worship without a permit. When they apply for a permit, it usually takes a long time & most of the time its rejected.

Those Israeli settlements in the Occupied West Bank are for “Jews Only”. They have “for Jews only” paved roads leading to those for Settlements. No Moslems, No Christians Palestinian/Arabs are allowed to live in those settlements or get/drive on those for “Jews only” paved roads.

If a Jewish settler living in the Occupied West Bank wishes to go worship in Jerusalem, he/she has NO restrictions at all…within minutes…he/she is there…and NO hassles or humiliations at the IDF checkpoints…

Can a Moslem or Christian Palestinian living in The Israeli Occupied West Bank apply for & become an Israeli citizen?

Can a Palestinian (Moslem/Christian), who was born in Tel-Aviv, Jerusalem…etc…apply for an Israeli citizenship and enter Israel? If so, how long is the process?

How about a Jewish person who was NOT born in Israel or pre-1948 Palestine…can he/she apply for an Israeli citizenship & move there. If so, how long is the process?

@@@@@@

Yep IMax…have you seen that “Go Right Young Man (GRYM)” lately…? His plagiarism trail is still smoldering…

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By IMax, April 28, 2012 at 6:04 am Link to this comment

hetero, - “Saudi Arabia doesn’t pretend that it’s anything but a place full of shit-weasel level intolerance.”

-

Technically speaking that’s not correct.  Putting that aside, your explanation is not a reasons so many on TruthDig reserve their condemnation for Jews. - A higher standard for tolerance is obviously practiced in Israel.

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 9:35 pm Link to this comment

IMax——Saudi Arabia doesn’t pretend that it’s anything but a place full of shit-
weasel level intolerance.

Israel is held to a higher standard because it claims a higher standard exists in
Israel.

It seems pretty fair to judge Israel by whether or not they meet what they claim

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By IMax, April 27, 2012 at 9:10 pm Link to this comment

I neglected to add that converting out of Islam is considered an apostasy which carries the penalty of death.

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By IMax, April 27, 2012 at 9:02 pm Link to this comment

In Saudi Arabia Christians and Jews worship in secret in private homes.  Not one church or synagog exists in the entire nation.  Christians and Jews cannot become Saudi citizens.  Period.  Any and all public displays of Christian or Jewish worship results in immediate arrest and deportation - usually preceded by physical beatings.

Again I ask, why do so many here on TruthDig feel that Jews should be singled out for condemnation?

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment

Nixon And Billy Graham
Anti-Semitism Caught On Tape
By James Warren
Chicago Tribune staff reporter

http://www.rense.com/general20/billy.htm

“Graham has the strong feeling that the Bible says there are satanic Jews and
there’s where our problem arises.” No such comments about the Bible are found
on the tape released Thursday but, because it contains several long deletions, it’s
believed such remarks were excised.

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By Robert, April 27, 2012 at 6:35 pm Link to this comment

Just the typical zionist-troll…he did not answer the questions…sidetracking/diversions are his transparent ways…

One more time…will your Apartheid Israel allow the following?


I just wonder how long will the Israeli police/authorities allow a Christian/church group to continue to attempt/pass religious Christian pamphlets to Israelis at a Tel-Aviv intersection and/or airport…???

How many times has Billy Graham conducted evangelical crusades in Israel?

Can you tell us hetero-zio-troll?

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 6:12 pm Link to this comment

Robert, you poor soul….why would anyone know or care how often Billy Graham
visited Israel?

my poor friend, calling me a troll doesn’t change the fact that you’ve posted
lies, nonsense, and ugliness from bigots.


you have a lot of atoning to do and little scope to complain about other
folks…..


why not simply start off with an apology for having repeated distorted garbage
?

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By Robert, April 27, 2012 at 5:44 pm Link to this comment

hetero-zionist-troll…

I knew that it wouldn’t take that much to rattle to cage…you are still out there with your pale PR & damage control attempts for your Apartheid Israel…

I just wonder how long will the Israeli police/authorities allow a Christian/church group to continue to attempt/pass religious Christian pamphlets to Israelis at a Tel-Aviv intersection and/or airport…???

How many times has Billy Graham conducted evangelical crusades in Israel?

Can you tell us hetero-zio-troll?

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

thank you for publishes your source and thank you for amending your
misinformation and agreeing that the law criminalizes paying for conversions
and doesn’t simply ban the practice of trying to convert adults by persuasion
and discourse.

——

why you then go on to publish more bullshit from some guy named Stan
Rittenhouse is kinda perplexing….

are you quoting the same Stan Rittenhouse touted on Storrmfront ?

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t150401/


============
here’s a short review of Rittenhouse’s book


......“About eight years ago I heard about Stan Rittenhouse’s book, For Fear of
the Jews, through a critical review in an issue of Israel, My Glory magazine. The
article indicated that the book was distributed through The Exhorters
Foundation in Vienna, Virginia. I ordered a copy of For Fear of the Jews and read
it. There was little in Rittenhouse’s book that appeared new to me, it was the
same old Nazi world Jewish conspiracy, anti-Israel rubbish that has been
disseminated for generations. Unfortunately, Rittenhouse claimed to be a
“fundamentalist” Christian.

During the summer of 1984, a plain, brown mailing envelope arrived by U.S.
Postal Service at my home. It contained an anti-Semitic newspaper named The
CDL Report from the so-called “Christian Defense League” and a booklist from
some related group called the “Sons of Liberty.” The letter accompanying the
material indicated that Stan Rittenhouse told them I might be interested in their
material; apparently, Rittenhouse shared his mailing list with them….”

———

http://www.raptureready.com/terry/james13.html


——-


Robert——stop posting stupid and ugly and lying shit…......and disgracing
yourself

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By Robert, April 27, 2012 at 3:57 pm Link to this comment

The Penal Law Amendment (Enticement to Change Religion) - law, 5738-1977, was passed by the Knesset during Christmas week (December 27, 1977) and went into effect Easter week (April 1, 1978). Violation of this law is a criminal offense, punishable by five years in prison or a fine of 50,000 Israeli pounds (or the equivalent in shekels). The above applies to those attempting to convert someone to their faith if a material benefit is offered. The State of Israel is not as harsh on those converted: Their sentence is three years in prison or a 30,000 Israeli-pound fine.

The law reads:

1. Whosoever gives or promises to a person money, money’s worth, or some other material benefit in order to induce him to change his religion or in order that he may induce another person to change his religion, is liable to imprisonment for five years or a fine of 50,000 pounds.

2. Whosoever receives or agrees to receive money, money’s worth, or some other material benefit in return for a promise to change his religion or to cause another person to change his religion is liable to imprisonment for a term of three years or a fine of 30,000 pounds.

(From “For Fear of the Jews,” by Stan Rittenhouse. 1982. The Exhorters, Inc. PO Box 492, Vienna, Virginia, 22180)
This law makes it a criminal offense to hand a Jew a tract with a word of witness; to have a Jew over for dinner, discussing Christ; or to witness to a Jew after buying him a cup of coffee. Israel’s most recent anti-missionary law (Sec. 170 and 172) and similar legislation now pending are much more direct. They outlaw any public witnessing to Jews, young and old, by Jewish or Gentile Christians.”

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/christian-deported.html

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 3:16 pm Link to this comment

Robert—-thank you, but repeating a claim about the law from an unnamed
source…rather than posting the text of THE LAW..or link to THE LAW…doesn’t
help.

the claim from your source is of course ...a claim…and not an truthful or
accurate one…... the law criminalizes BUYING conversions….and SELLING them.


———-

“It is illegal in Israel to proselytize among minors. It is also prohibited to
engage in missionary activities among adults when economic incentives are
offered. “


http://tinyurl.com/6mgk3dm
—-


Israel law restricts the missionaries to that extent….and they may well add
other restrictions in future….but you’re buying into bad info.

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By Robert, April 27, 2012 at 1:36 pm Link to this comment

Tuesday, April 24 2012|Yossi Gurvitz

Israel’s not-so-stellar record on treatment of Christians


“The 2010 State Department report on religious freedom in Israel and the occupied territories found that the Israeli Ministry of the Interior (MOI) is harassing Christian priests by demanding they renew their visas time and time again. It limits the number of visas Christian religious workers receive, and makes onerous demands on them. The visa application process, when successful, takes months. During 2010, the MOI refused to renew the Jerusalem Anglican bishop’s residency permit, claiming that he was involved in forgery. The bishop denies the claim, and it is noteworthy that he was not indicted.

The MOI further refuses to grant recognized legal status to several old churches in Israel, all of them Protestant. Four Christian churches are waiting years for recognition of their legal status: the Ethiopian-Orthodox Church, the Coptic-Orthodox Church, the Evangelic Lutheran Church, and the United Christian Council.

The MOI, left for many years to the Orthodox parties, is collaborating with a hate organization, “Yad Le’Achim,” which has a clear anti-Christian agenda (Hebrew). The MOI sends “queries” about Israeli citizens and tourists to Yad Le’Achim, for it to decide whether they are suspected of “missionary activity.” Now, Israeli law does not forbid religious preaching: it merely prohibits a conversion made in exchange for goods, and the conversion of minors without the permission of their parents. Yet, when your country is officially termed Jewish and your Minister of the Interior is an Orthodox Jew, the law matters little. In 2009, according to the State Department report cited above, 30 percent of the tourists who were stopped for questioning in Ben Gurion Airport were questioned about their religious beliefs, at the instructions of the MOI. This was probably an attempt to intimidate them from proselytizing.”

http://972mag.com/israels-not-so-stellar-record-on-treatment-of-christians/43325/

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By Robert, April 27, 2012 at 1:02 pm Link to this comment

Anti-missionary law 5738-1977. Strictly speaking, “proselytizing” under this law involves a gift, no matter how small (such as a tract) given to a Jew by a Christian. Under Israeli law it is a crime to “give or promise money, the equivalent of money or any other material benefit in order to entice a person to change his religion.” Yet, realistically, the word “proselytizing” is much more loosely interpreted.

“It is used most frequently in Israel, becoming common with the passage on December 25, 1977, of Israel’s infamous “anti-missionary” law.1 This is a statute that decrees a prison term of up to five years for any gentile attempting to proselytize a Jew away from his faith.

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 12:17 pm Link to this comment

Robert—please show us those alleged Israeli laws…
I certainly would like to read them.


I have heard about an Israeli law which forbids
people to PAY folks to convert and forbids accepting
money to do so…....

but nothing about it being a criminal offense to
exchange gifts with people of other faiths…....

please put up what you’re declaring to be the law,
Robert. I have the definite idea that you’re getting
your info from untrustworthy sources.

please clarify.

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By Robert, April 27, 2012 at 10:47 am Link to this comment

hetero—- if a Christian is caught preaching on the streets in Israel…its 5 years in prison for him/her…

If a Jew accepts a gift from a Christian clergyman/priest…its 5 years in prison…

Its Israeli law….

Below is just a small sample of Israeli treatments of Christians/Christianity… 


========


By heterochromatic, April 27


“Robert—- that’s quite true that the Palestinian Christian’s are leaving in large
measure due to Israeli policies….

However, it’s also true that they’re leaving mostly because they’re Palestinians, not
because they’re Christians.


It’s pretty much the rest of the Middle East where Christians are persecuted for
their religion and it’s the Islamic nations that are screwing Christians to the wall
.”

@@@@@@@@@@


Ultra-Orthodox spitting attacks on Old City clergymen becoming daily

Clergymen in the Armenian Church in Jerusalem say they are victims of harassment, from senior cardinals to priesthood students; when they do complain, the police don’t usually find the perpetrators.

By Oz Rosenberg


Ultra-Orthodox young men curse and spit at Christian clergymen in the streets of Jerusalem’s Old City as a matter of routine. In most cases the clergymen ignore the attacks, but sometimes they strike back. Last week the Jerusalem Magistrate’s Court quashed the indictment against an Armenian priesthood student who had punched the man who spat at him.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/ultra-orthodox-spitting-attacks-on-old-city-clergymen-becoming-daily-1.393669

~~~~~~~~~~


When Israelis Burned Bibles,
Most Christians Were Silent

By Rev. Ted Pike

“Two and a half years ago, in an incident evocative of the recent threat by Florida pastor Rev. Terry Jones to burn copies of the Qur’an, Jewish religious students in Israel burned Christian New Testaments ­ by the hundreds.

AP: “Orthodox Jews set fire to hundreds of copies of the New Testament in the latest act of violence against Christian missionaries in the Holy Land. Or Yehuda Deputy Mayor Uzi Aharon said missionaries recently entered a neighborhood in the predominantly religious town of 34,000 in central Israel, distributing hundreds of New Testaments and missionary materials.” Aharon said he “got into a loudspeaker car last Thursday and drove through the neighborhood, urging people to turn over the material to Jewish religious students the books were dumped into a pile and set fire in a lot near a synagogue.” Aharon claimed it is “a commandment [in Talmudic Judaism] to burn materials that urge Jews to convert.’” (Haaretz, “Orthodox Jewish youths burn New Testaments in Or Yehuda,”)

At that time, there were some reports in western, even Christian media, of this outrage ­ yet nothing compared to the worldwide indignation against the Florida pastor. No major leader or denomination publically criticized the burning or the government of Israel, which neither forcefully criticized nor did anything to punish the offenders. Here we see the too familiar dichotomy: Last week an extremist Christian pastor was held up to international contempt for his threatened desecration and lack of “respect for diversity.” The floodgates of international media poured forth unlimited copy, alerting the world of what a Christian might do.”


http://www.rense.com/general92/burnss.htm

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 9:39 am Link to this comment

Said is partially right and there are a fair number are powers that find utility in
keeping the Palestinians homeless and miserable…but many of the Arab states are
changing away from that position ...

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 9:34 am Link to this comment

Robert—- that’s quite true that the Palestinian Christian’s are leaving in large
measure due to Israeli policies….

However, it’s also true that they’re leaving mostly because they’re Palestinians, not
because they’re Christians.


It’s pretty much the rest of the Middle East where Christians are persecuted for
their religion and it’s the Islamic nations that are screwing Christians to the wall.

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By Anarcissie, April 27, 2012 at 9:27 am Link to this comment

My previous comment dealt only with the logical and rhetorical ineffectiveness of Tu quoque in general and Fails to denounce in particular.

Quite awhile back I read an essay by Edward Said whose gist was that the Two-State solution was never going to come about, not because it was objectively impossible, but because the most important powers and stakeholders did not want it.  As a result there will be a one-state solution, and that one state will eventually be binational, multiconfessional, and non-aligned.  (As an anarchist I would prefer the no-state solution, but as people are not ready to stop fighting and oppressing one another, that isn’t yet possible.)  It would be nice to skip over the next ten or twenty or fifty years of insanity, bloodshed, propaganda, despair, torture, terror and waste before the inevitable end is reached, but no one important seems to desire this, so that is not to be.

As for Syrian, Saudi Arabian, and the other neighboring tyrannies, it is my hope they will soon be overthrown by their people and replaced with something better, but that is not relevant to this discussion.

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By Robert, April 27, 2012 at 8:21 am Link to this comment

Thank you 60 Minutes

“On April 22, Bob Simon and the US news show “60 Minutes” shared the painful truth with 13 million viewers — the primary cause for the exodus of Palestinian Christians from the Holy Land is the nearly 45 year-old illegal Israeli occupation. Now “60 Minutes” is being attacked for telling the truth. A range of Israel-first partisan groups have gone on the attack against CBS, and they have received over 29,000 emails of complaint. If “60 Minutes” backs down, then other media outlets will do the same. Sign the petition below to be sure that CBS hears from supporters for its brave and truthful reporting.

Thank you, Bob Simon and 60 Minutes, for your segment on the Palestinian Christian exodus from Israel-controlled territory.

Journalists who tell the painfully honest truth about Palestinian life under occupation deserve our thanks, not political attacks.”


~~~~~~~~~~~

Click on link below to watch video...etc…:

http://thankyou60minutes.org

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By IMax, April 27, 2012 at 6:53 am Link to this comment

Anarcissie,

I beg you attempt to offer an honest argument on this subject.  I will ask you the same two questions I asked of diamond: 

1. How does Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, for example, deal with domestic dissent and/or calls for alternative rule within their respective borders? 

2. In context of the question above, why are so many here on TruthDig under the impression that Jews should be singled-out for condemnation?

You’ll notice how Diamond chose not to address these direct questions but, rather, opted to change the subject.

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By heterochromatic, April 27, 2012 at 6:41 am Link to this comment

it doesn’t concede, it sidesteps and asks whether there’s a single standard.


are people saying that Israel shouldn’t have nukes because Iran shouldn’t agreeing
that Iran is intent on producing nukes?

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By Anarcissie, April 27, 2012 at 6:27 am Link to this comment

‘Fails to denounce X’ is always a reliable criticism, since there is an almost endless list of evils and evil acts, real and imagined.  Even were one’s target to begin every utterance with hundreds of denunciations, there would always be a few more that had been missed.

However, as a form of tu quoque, it pretty much concedes, rather than refutes, one’s opponent’s argument.

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By IMax, April 27, 2012 at 5:44 am Link to this comment

diamond, - “I’ve condemned every fascist pack of jackals.”

-

Of course the problem is, you haven’t.  At least not in the six months I’ve been here have I seen you write of the “crimes against humanity” of Iran in hanging homosexuals, Syria’s killing of tens of thousands, or the millions starving in N. Korea.  All official policies of the above.

I’ve never seen you speak out against the hundreds of churches which are burned in Nigeria or Indonesia.

No, you reserve your constant condemnation for Jews.

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By Alan MacDonald, April 26, 2012 at 1:18 pm Link to this comment

Paul is indeed brave and compassionate to discuss this ‘third rail’ topic even briefly.

However, I strongly believe that the broader issue of all suicidal complexes caused by internalizing ‘Empire-thinking’ pathologies can be addressed in a rational and non-threatening discourse that should be open-minded, non-controversial, and educational to all of us—- regardless of non-inclusive ideas of the past that may have entered our minds.

I was initially apprehensive when I addressed this topic in 2007 under my own name, which I always do, rather than under some blogosphere pseudonym—- and I have never had reason to regret honest discourse:

http://www.rense.com/general88/aip.htm

Best luck and love to the “Occupy Empire” educational movement.

Liberty, democracy, equality & justice
Over
Violent/Vichy
Empire,

Alan MacDonald

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By heterochromatic, April 26, 2012 at 12:10 pm Link to this comment

Salome—- do you not understand that Krugman IS speaking up about it and is
putting forth a defense of Beinart’s criticism????


Krugman is explicitly NOT offering a defense…....


hope this helps you…..and that you take a couple of minutes to read what Beinart
is saying and what Krugman is agreeing with… is the need to publicly disapprove
of Israeli policies and pressure the Israelis to change.

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By heterochromatic, April 26, 2012 at 10:43 am Link to this comment

Ana—- your imaginings are welcome, but not really dispositive.


Patsy’s earlier in the thread pronouncement….

“....the travesty called israel would have been wrapped up in the 60’s…....”

might be a fair bit divergent from your ideas.

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By Anarcissie, April 26, 2012 at 10:22 am Link to this comment

I imagine P.H. is referring to the status of Israel as a tribal/ancestrial/racial/religious state with differing kinds of citizenship, attempting to build Bantustans (reservations) for the lower caste.  This is an expensive proposition and it seems doubtful whether Israel could support it without external aid.  However, the existence of an Israel at odds with its neighbors is no doubt seen as useful by the American ruling class.

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By heterochromatic, April 26, 2012 at 8:26 am Link to this comment

Pats—by “current form” do you mean as a nation..or as
a nation with lousy policies?

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By heterochromatic, April 26, 2012 at 7:26 am Link to this comment

vec———you DO have a point there…..

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By Salome, April 26, 2012 at 5:23 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

It seems to me that the failure of Paul Krugman, and other prominent Jews to speak up and say that Israel is wrong, fuels extremist frustration with what is perceived to be a knee-jerk defense of Israel no matter what the facts.  Krugman can do better; he doesn’t get a pass on this.

As for nuclear weapons, until Israel has the integrity to sign the IAEA Agreement, I don’t want to hear a word about Iran being in noncompliance.

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