It has long been my thesis, and often said on these forums, that
humans only make note of history, they do not learn from it.  It is
a human flaw.  Yes, history is immensely important, it is especially
poignant for me as I am a teacher of it, or at least some part of it as
I do not deal with world history. But I certainly keep my pulse on
world history as much as I can.  Recorded history is important to use
as if it were a mirror and can serve the purpose of reflection on which
to base present and future acts.  But we all know that seeing ourselves
in the mirror we often delude ourselves of what we see.  We need to
have a mirror (history if you will) that convinces us of the truth.  A
Mirror of Truth that is detached from partisan emotions that colors
sight.  Where shall we find one of these?  Who tells the truth these
days and who told it in the past?  How do we measure what is offered
as truth?

gerard:

Of COURSE history is important (it is one of my major interests), but “tradition” is often used to excuse abominable practices as in: ‘well we’ve always done it that way.’ That is the sort of “history lesson” I was referring to.

Of COURSE we need to know what has gone on before our time, but what has gone on before should never be used as a reason to keep doing something bad or to be quiet in the face of barbarity. When I see wrong, I speak out, always have and always will—and I hope you do too.

Starfish and Shenonymous:  Starfish asks: ..“history lessons” about how long slavery had been going on (as if to justify the practice). In all honesty, gerard, I don’t know why you are giving us history lessons; what does it matter what has gone on in the past?  If a thing is wrong, it is wrong. The maltreatment of Muslim women by Muslim men is wrong.” 
  I really don’t understand where things went awry here.  I’m on your side, both of you.  The question (for me) is not what to do, but how to be most effective doing it. 
  History (lessons) matter. What has gone on before is often used to justify, and is certainly used to explain why certain things happen and other things don’t happen.  Of course the traditional or radical Islamic law(whichever it is, for I have known Muslims who would not dream of stoning women, ever) is evil and despicable.  So is prostitution, another “traditional” crime against women. So was foot-binding. So is the rather widespread general idea that women are “inferior” to men, etc. etc. ad nauseum
  The entire world is now working to get rid of the scourge of war, including nuclear extermination—a crime against humanity as a whole. Let’s not fall apart over misunderstanding.
  Some of my annoying, single-minded determination about the relevance of history comes from the fact that last year I finished a detailed study of the Crudades from the point of view of both sides.  Till then I had no idea of what really happened, and of how that insane travesty still plays out today.  (Did you know that somebody close to boys in Iraq was preaching the same message as one of the Popes during the Crusades—“Kill them all.  God will know His own!”  and kids were having it tatooed on their arms? That’s how relevant history is, don’t you ever forget it.
  Anyhow, please, I’m on your side; you’re on my side.  We are all women, I am pretty sure. And all vitally concerned about what is going on and trying to do what we can about it.  Cheers for us!

Sorry, gerard, I had not realized we had developed any friendship. 
Shenonymous does not make TD friends easily.  I’ve been reading
the parry between you and starfish and I find my sympathies are with
her. Or hers are with mine.  And I find the argument wheel-spinning
for both of you given your respective positions. I was dismayed and
also saddened to see you taking the counter path.  I have always had
a high opinion of your views.

Since I’ve become aware of the Middle Eastern men’s treatment of
women, now for about nine or ten years, before which I was nearly
totally ignorant of the Middle East or its religiopolitics, but since 9/11
and a few other terrorists acts, I have developed only the greatest
repugnance and shock of what women must go through under the
Islamist religious/political states.  I feel similarly towards the Hindus
who commit atrocities against their women as well.  So it is not with
Islam per se.  It is how men treat women using their tradition to justify
it.  And yes when it rears its ugly head in western societies, it is just as
hateful.  I know first hand that Italian men treated their women
abominably seeing the brutal physical treatment and mental tyranny
against of some of the women in my family, but that is not the topic
here.  The behavior towards women by the Catholic Church is not
absolved in any way by my criticism here.  It might be a culture thing
but what interrupts that argument is the notion of evolution.  We are
supposedly civilized.

What has been the history of American women, has incomparably
improved since women’s suffrage, but it is also only presented here as a
straw man argument used to apologize for the criticisms leveled against
Islamists.  This article is specifically about the horrid treatment of
Islamist women.  The American courts are flooded with cases of abuses
and murderous treatment of women so American women here have the
legal system as a buffer and recourse.  The legal system when it comes
to women accused of transgressions that I ‘ve witnessed through
reports of the Middle East is a sham in the name of justice in my
opinion.  While many Islamlist men commendably are of the 21st
century, the masses are not even Medieval, they are tribal in their their
thinking about the value of women.  Imagine savage stoning!  Women
are equal to men in their humanity, period.

I know I tread on very dangerous ground which says a lot about the
truth of what I say since speaking the truth can be devastating for
those who dare to speak out at the hands of zealots, and in the past I
have been threatened with death for making criticisms of anything
Islamist.  And dangerous exposure of my identity and home residence
(which I have since changed) as well.  So I have not an ounce of
sympathy for a group who would endanger my life for their own radical
and religious fanaticism.  I will no doubt resuffer again for speaking out
my beliefs.  And I know I do not have to put myself at risk again, but I
choose to not be silenced with vicious threats that will swoop in to
attempt to cut my throat.  Just watch.

Shenonymous:  Your previous post was a shocker to me. II feel like I lost a friend.  Sad.

starfish, to my mind you have made the most sense on this entire
forum, including my own.  You have made a sustained argument and
I could not agree with your observations more.  As a spectator, it
appears to me that the patter going on between you and gerard is
unavailing and futile.  An open mind is one thing meaning when
irrefutable evidence is presented, that mind has the ability to change. 
But an entrenched partisan mind is another thing.  It is otiose to
attempt any rational arguments.  It is self-violence to keep trying. 

If you don’t mind too much, I suggest that you post your views
without getting into direct argument with those who have no capacity
to change their opinions, who will always find a new dance step to keep
up disagreement.  It is their one skill.  Your views are thoughtful and
worthy of reading and even offer aspects not always seen, or needful
of reminding.

Slavery (and considering black-Americans “property”) didn’t come to an end in America until some people started making a protest against it. They, too, were given “history lessons” about how long slavery had been going on (as if to justify the practice). In all honesty, gerard, I don’t know why you are giving us history lessons; what does it matter what has gone on in the past?  If a thing is wrong, it is wrong. The maltreatment of Muslim women by Muslim men is wrong.

gerard:

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has been traveling around the world (for years) at State Dept. expense to talk to other Muslims; this year his wife traveled with him, also at State Dept. expense. What he says—while traveling on our dime—I do not know. He is supposed to NOT disparage the United States while we are paying for his travel, but who knows what he is actually saying in his conversations; he clearly has said some negative things about America—and he clearly does not understand our Constitution or what our judicial system is all about.

  RAUF:  “In America, we have a Constitution that created a three-branch form of government - legislative, executive and judiciary. The role of the judiciary is to ensure that the other two branches comply with the Constitution. What Muslims want is a judiciary that ensures that the laws are not in conflict with the Quran and the Hadith. Just as the Constitution has gone through interpretations, so does Shariah law.”
  http://tinyurl.com/2ucy4x9

Sorry, Mr. Rauf, but the only laws the American judiciary is supposed to see implemented are laws passed by the ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES of the American people, NOT laws created by any religious groups.

Very few if any know of the problems of the
women in Iran….but you do know something about
Saudia Arabia that no one wants to address.

In fact, Iran has been one of the most progressive
Muslim nations in their treatment of woman as Iraq was.

It is the same ones that pushed the WMD lies and the
babies being pulled from incubators and burnt lies
that are pushing the Iran lies. All a prelude to war.

Starfish:
1. The mistreatment of women has been traditional throughout the world until very recently (100 years or so) when democratic governments in Europe and the US began to pass laws that influenced many Christians to change their traditional patterns—more or less, depending upon how paternalistic they remained or still remain.  Much still needs to be done, as you know.
  I’m not so familiar with Judaism, but I think the rights of women improved as European nations improved their laws concerning womens’ rights. 
  Islam, by geographical distances and the influence of the Enlightnement in Europe, remained pretty far removed. China and Japan kept women pretty subjugated until they came under the influence of Communism and, in Japan, Christianity. There is still a remaining deference on the part of women in both places, almost as though by choice, and women are definitely not “equal” yet.
  India fell under the influence of England, of course, which hastened the improvement of women’s status, but still there are significant differences according to location and social status.  Latin America is a whole other ball of wax.
  The point being:  The struggle of women for equality has been and still is a mixed bag of struggle, institutional legalized freedom in government and relative equality caused by economic and educational level.  Women’s equality is to some degree unfinished business everywhere.
  Problems of women in the Middle East are compounded by the domination of religion in government—a battle fought and won, more or less, in Europe maybe a couple hundred years ago, roughly speaking. Logic tells me that Islam will also be drawn away from its “medieval” recalcitrance by rapidly increasing inter-communication worldwide. I hope I am right, but probably confrontation, threat, violence and insult will prolong the process rather than accelerate it.  Again, I may be wrong as I am only speculating on the basis of fact, hope and logical comparisons.
  Meantime, there are primitivisms here at home that we need to work on.  Women can vote, hold jobs, earn money, work outside the home and hold public office. They ar enot stoned for adultery. But still they feel they must sacrifice their sons (and now daughters too) on the alter of war to feed the insatiable military/industrial machine and see the fruit of their wombs brought home to them in a flag-draped box, or permanently brain-damaged and incapacited for normal life as a result of foolish, unnecessry, illegal wars for oil or money or political domination.  Equality indeed!  Give me a break.
  I don’t quite get what “travelling on our dime” means, but I take it as a slur, of sorts, as it has a resentful sound.
  I also must ask you, at this point, to reflect on the vagaries characteristic of human history:
At one point a couple thousand years ago the Islamic world was far ahead of so-called Western Civlization in astronomy, mathematics and natural sciences. Our knights of the round table appeared as raw savages in the sophisticated courts of Persia.  Alexandria was a center of learning before anybody ever heard much about Rome, and Germany was a wilderness.

gerard:

Well, I would just make two points.

(1) I feel there have been almost endless books written about the crimes of Christianity against an array of people over the centuries, I do not think there has been silence on that issue at all. Also, I think Americans are constantly writing and talking about all the bad things we as a nation have done to various groups over the years; there has been no silence on that either. But have you seen a similar self-appraisal from the Muslim world about the bad things THEY have done to people (and especially Muslim women) over the centuries? I think not. They are the ones who are quite inclined to focus on the crimes against them while ignoring their own crimes against an array of victims.

(2)  I feel the male Muslim maltreatment of Muslim women has gone on for centuries and seems not inclined to draw much protest from within their own Muslim community. How nice it would be if the leaders of the proposed Ground Zero mosque would spend as much of their time focusing on the crimes Muslims have committed over the centuries as they have in focusing attention on the crimes Americans have committed—and they get to do it while traveling on our dime. Go figure.

starfish: Again you insist on missing my point:

Once more, then: You say:  “We do not stop speaking out against barbarity just because we think the monsters won’t pay us any heed; we speak out anyway.”
  I absolutely agree with you.  Get that!  AGREE WITH YOU.
  Now:  If we WANT them to pay attention,(and I presume we do)then we do not simply point out their cruelties and blithely fail to mention our own.  Much of the animosity between people who can’t resolve their differences is that BOTH SIDES have reasons (dug up out of the past) for being aggrieved, insulted, offended etc.  But the problem is that neither side is willing to relate the offenses it has committed against the other side.
  There is a thousand-plus-year accumulation of mutual (get that, mutual) offenses between Islam, Christianity and Judaism, all three, that has never (get that, never) been opened up, admitted, talked about, cleared, understood—whatever.  That entire uncleared history is now back in play, after some years of smothering silence on both sides.
  I’m not sure how clearance will come, but I don’t think it will be by us accusing them of this crime while we have just recently committed that crime against them and cover it up, refuse to admit it, act like it didn’t happen or pretend it was justified.
  I could be wrong, but that’s the way it seems to me.  Justice is a two-oway street. That’s what the mote and the stick in the eye story was all about, and the idea is some 2000 years old.  I didn’t invent it.

gerard wrote:  “To tell the truth, I’m surprised that I was so unclear.”

No, you weren’t unclear; I just don’t agree with your conclusion. I think we need to protest when we see horrors committed, whether by our own government or elsewhere. Of course, those Muslim leaders won’t pay any attention to us but they aren’t going to be inclined to pay attention to anyone who is critical of their actions (no matter how innocent that person is). If a Muslim women would dare to speak out against Muslim crimes against Muslim women—no matter how good a person, mother and wife she is—she will be punished, and horribly punished.

We do not stop speaking out against barbarity just because we think the monsters won’t pay us any heed; we speak out anyway.

gerard:

No, I do NOT agree that the “the U.S. is singularly good at ignoring its own horrors.” I think the Muslim world is unusually reluctant to admit its own horrors, especially with regard to Muslim men’s treatment of Muslim women.

And, I don’t really know many nations that have been more inclined to criticize themselves than America has been.

We have many people who write and act in protest to the bad things we do at home and abroad; we have a lively debate about our past and present crimes and maltreatment of various groups. The Muslims do NOT have that same lively debate about their past and present crimes; it is not permitted.

starfish:  Please stifle your anger a minute and consider what I said and why.
  1. My point was not about whether or not Muslims apologize for their sins.
  2. My point was not about whether or not the U.S. apologizes for its sins.
  3. My point was not that we shouldn’t critize evil and brutality. Of course we should!
  4. My sole point was that if A critizes B, B will not pay much attention especially if A is committing sins of equal cruelty and not admitting it.
  Please reread my original post on this and tell me where you couldn’t follow my line of thought. To tell the truth, I’m surprised that I was so unclear.

starfish: it is “all right with me” if you say anything you want to say, and I hope it is “all right with you” if I point it out when I see a relevant idea you (and others of like mind) may be ignoring. My entire point was not that people shouldn’t criticize such horrors. Of course they should! But that our criticism can easily be ignored by those we criticize if we don’t at the same time, admit our own horrors.  And the U.S. is singularly good at ignoring its own horrors.  Then it wonders “why do they hate us?”

The following three points are suggested to the good-intentioned Pope to take into considerations before he takes any action:

(1) The Pope should never intervene directly with Iran,lest the whole sad and miserable affair ending up Christians V. Muslims. That should be avoided,regardless how profoundly one feels disgusted by the judgment against the poor woman in a society so sensitive to adultary.

(2) The Pope can diplomatically and quietly contact some Islamic countries which have excellent relations with Iran such as Syria,Turkey and Qatar. And the Pope can then follow development from there.

(3) Since the essence of Islam is FREE from such a despicable judgment passed against Sakinah,a hidden political motive must NOT be ruled out behind the whole affair from A to Z. It might,(just might),have to do with the huge demonstrations that took place immediately after the results of the last Iranian Presidential election were officially declared. Vengeance is an integral part of the Middle Eastren culture,especially if the cause of the problem/crisis is not iron-out peacefully.

Best wishes to the Pope in his genuine efforts to save Sakinah’s life. He may just succeed if he follows point(2)listed above.

Ah… the pot calling the kettle black. It’s amazing! The Vatican points its nasty and dirty stinky finger at the Islamists loons while ignoring its part in promoting and prolonging human misery in Africa by its stance on birth control and condemns.

What’s there not to love?

By nefesh, September 6 at 6:48 pm

”I betcha at least 90% of the Truthdig faithful side with Khameini. What does that tell you about the so-called ‘Progressives’? “

1. I would have to agree with you.

2. They’re gutless wonders, scared shitless, and cannot find enough ways to surrender and “run up the white flag” to the Islamists. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA7uQPbie2M&feature=related

By Shenonymous, September 6 at 10:26 pm

”There is nothing anyone can DO about it, except the Islamist women
themselves.  Ayan Hirsi Ali does something about it and many of her
Islamist sisters. “

Yes Shenonymous, Ayan does do something about it. Unfortunately for her “sistahs” they can’t count on the protection of her neighbor Christopher Hitchens, her new friends of the New Atheists, and the “Great Satan.”

Ali, you might recall, was warned by the 5th column Islamists of Peaceful Islam –the 5th column that Islamic apologists in the West deny exists- by means of a note which they pinned with a knife into the chest of Theo van Gough. Because of this Ayan Hirsi Ali is the first (or perhaps one of only a few) European politicians who has had to seek political asylum in the Great Satan since WWII. Because of the practitioners of the religion of peace she cannot walk the streets of our nation’s capital without a bodyguard.

Have you noticed Shenonymous, that the love of god and the love of mankind as practiced by the adherents of all 3 monotheistic desert god faiths are inverses of each others?

So glad Amnesty International has been brought up.  At the site, at
http://www.amnesty.org/en  on the right side of the pages, is a set of
actions you can take, Donate, Join, and Take Action.  While you are at
it, you might read several of the articles.

Here are a few of the headlines at the reports page: (Some web
addresses are too long for Truthdig page format and therefore need to
be copied and pasted into browsers.)

Yemen abandons human rights in the name of countering
terrorism
25 August 2010
The Yemeni authorities must stop sacrificing human rights in the name
of security as they confront threats from al-Qa’ida, Zaidi Shi’a rebels in
the north, and address growing demands for secession in the south.

Iranian journalist and human rights defender set to face trial ...
?3 September 2010
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/iranian-
journalist-and-human-rights-defender-set-face-trial-2010-09-03’
This article has been pulled from the AI site.  If you are concerned
about the freedom of speech AI pretends to defend, then write to them
at their Contact Us address at http://www.amnesty.org/en/contact

And be sure to cite the web address of the article to which you are
taking issue.

This is part of what the article was about that was pulled taken from the
site:  Iranian journalist and human rights defender set to face trial
http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/iran
provided by Egomet Bonmot Sept.7 at 1:41am.
An Iranian journalist and human rights defender set to face trial
tomorrow on a series of charges must be released immediately and
unconditionally, Amnesty ...

FYI:  There are 99 pages of articles under the amnesty.org/en/region?
Iran pages with an average of 9 articles, do the math.

Iran: Journalist may face death penalty: Shiva Nazar Ahari ...
?23 August 2010
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE13/086/2010/en
Journalist and human rights defender Shiva Nazar Ahari appears to have
been charged with moharebeh (enmity with God), which can carry the
death penalty. Her next hearing is scheduled for 4 September 2010.
She is a prisoner of conscience, held solely for the peaceful exercise of
her rights to freedom of expression and association.  Urgent Action

Iran: Iranian teenager facing execution: Ebrahim Hamidi?
20 August 2010
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE13/084/2010/en
Juvenile offender Ebrahim Hamidi, now aged 18, has been sentenced to
death for allegedly sexually assaulting a man two years ago, when he
was 16. He has retracted his “confession”, saying he made it under
coercion. He is at risk of execution and currently without a lawyer. 
Urgent Action

Some reports are downloadable PDF files, or HTML.

ofersince72— Glad to see that your suspicion of news sources doesn’t extend to
Amnesty International.  Here’s what they say about Iran:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/iran

Our major media services, owned by those that also own
a good portion of the U.S. debt continue to highlight
civil liberty abuses from regions of the world we know
nothing about and have no way of verifiny their stories,

while we have surveillance cameras set up almost everywhere, evesdropped on by the phone companies, the
world’s largest prison population, our bill of rights
taken away by the Patriot Acts, jobs taken overseas to
sweat shops, a huge institutional racism problem, a
22% unemployment rate, our education system being destroyed right in front of our eyes, explosive drinking
water, need i go on?

So I really don’t know what stories the U.S. government
might distort in a buildup to get public support for
a war against Iran..

But I do know what AMNETY INTERNATION feels about U.S.
prisons…

“Amnesty International is extremely concerned by the lack
of legislation and policies to protect pregnant women
from being restrained or shackeled when it could be
harmful to their pregnancy and child.”

“Amnesty International ...This effort is a part of a
larger effort with regard to the criminal justice system
in the U.S.  It is not enough to improve the prison system;  a human rights approch also demands a review and
criticism of unfair processes, driven to a large extent by
racism and poverty, which result in continuing growth
in the number of incarcerated woman and men.”

There are plenty of reported abuses by our criminal
justice system in Federal, State, and Local prisons.
These abuses never make it to the MSMs or our major
printed media, so why then are they so concerned about
what is happening in Iran.?

Really don’t know what’s going on in Iran because it

is a proven fact that our government will make up almost

any story , and that our “free press” will deliver it for

them in order to take us to war.

But I do know what happened at the Abu Garaib prison in
Bagdad, what is going on at the Afghan prison and that
our military secret services tortured a 15 year old boy
to extract a phoney confession. I also know what has been
reported at Guantanimo Bay torture camp.  I know that
there were no WMDS in Iraq but we used that for an excuse
to kill hundreds of thousands of citizens in Iraq.
So I know that our press lies for the government.

Keep fighting the good fight, cixgid!!  How DARE Truthdig continue their malicious misrepresentation of the facts of the case, when you and I know it’s really only a pesky little mock execution?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/aug/31/sakineh-mohammadi-ashtiani-mock-execution-stoning

I sometimes wonder how the Truthdig guys can sleep at night.

It is very disappointing that Truthdig would join in the malicious misrepresentation of the facts in this case, where the stoning punishment has been officially withdrawn for several months now.

Of course, if the writers here were ever called upon to justify their texts, they will say that no where in the above story on this page is it stated that she is about to be stoned. But it is surely worded to make the reader believe that. Just more proof that like Huffingtonpost, Truthdig will betray all of us seeking a true independent voice, and will help lead us into a needless and unjustified war in Iran. More deaths and more Trillions of dollars wasted.

It is idle talk by non-Islamists about what happens to Islamist women.
There is nothing anyone can DO about it, except the Islamist women
themselves.  Ayan Hirsi Ali does something about it and many of her
Islamist sisters.  All we can do is rant and wail that women are treated
less than farmyard animals.  If just talk pleases you then keep posting
about it, but do not be deluded you are doing anyone any good
except to make yourself “feel” better for your observations.

If you can stand it unless the violence insults your sensitivity?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15IWXFh587U
Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysELENBOz9E

Institutional Islamic Violence Against Women.
http://cplash.com/post/400-Hindu-Women-Take-Pledge-To-Fight-
Against-Atrocities-By-Islamists683.html
or Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/28vyty6

Institutional Islamic Violence Against Women.
http://rothkopf.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/08/03/women_and_isla
m_the_real_test_of_our_values
Or Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/36wl2rf
Foreign Policy:  Women and Islam: The real test of our values

There are 1,400,000 google results for Islamist women who fight
against atrocities against Islamist women.  That is one million, four
hundred thousand.  Get it?

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=Islamist+women+who+fight+agains
t+atrocities+against+Islamist+women&aq=f&aqi;=&aql;=&oq;=&gs;_rfai=
&pbx=1&fp=5673716d440c1f33
Or Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/2dofpwv

When these ghouls stone a woman to death, they use “stones carefully selected to be big enough to wound but not to kill quickly.”
http://tinyurl.com/27dob8r

FRANK: 

“She was ACQUITTED of murder but found guilty of adultery and sentenced to death by stoning.”  http://tinyurl.com/2v7kzy7

This past Saturday, she was told she would be hanged on Sunday. The authorities did this to torment her:  “Sakineh Mohammadi Ashtiani subjected to mock execution” at:  http://tinyurl.com/2v7kzy7

gerard:

I think there are ample books and other writings out there, by Americans, speaking to all America has done wrong in its short or long history.

(Besides, I didn’t torture anyone, hold anyone prisoner, deprive anyone of his or her property, etc. ... etc. ... etc. Is it okay with you if I speak out against the horror of stoning women to death for infractions of the man-made Muslim rules?)

Has the Muslim community written as many books and papers about what Muslim have done wrong in the past?

Imam Feisal brought up all the bad things we did to Muslims by way of “explaining” 9/11. I did NOT notice he prefaced his remarks with a full apology for all the bad things Muslims have done to women and to “infidels” in the past.

Frank wrote:

“I can’t believe this propaganda story has remained strong for so long.

This is a murder case.  There is no question about it.  Her husband was murdered. So
how is this canard that its all about adultery allowed to go on?

I suppose you could construct some type of elaborate scenario where she was framed,
but they aren’t even doing that.  They are just pretending like the murder didn’t happen”

It’s a big web, Frank.  Source please?

starfish:  We can speak out all we like, but it’s likely we won’t be listened to without our own confessions coming first. The Biblical comment on hypocrisy in the Book of Matthew 7:5—warns about calling out others on their faults while concealing or failing to admit and rectify our own.

I see by some of the comments here that we are not permitted to speak out against cruelty unless we have, personally, led perfect lives and our government has always been perfect.

Ayatollah Khamenei can tweet?

By Go Right Young Man, September 6

Unsurprisingly, Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei has tweeted a holiday message, and it’s as cheery as one might imagine:

  “Israel Is A Hideous Entity In the Middle East Which Will Undoubtedly Be Annihilated”

I betcha at least 90% of the Truthdig faithful side with Khameini. What does that tell you about the so-called ‘Progressives’?

Beware Iran! Don’t get Benny 16 upset with you! If you were smart you’d ask him to send over a copy of the ol’ “Witch’s Hammer” and do your dirty work in a more “civilized” manner!

This Friday was al-Quds day, a holiday created by the Iranian regime to oppose Zionism and Israel’s control over Jerusalem. This year, it happens to fall near the beginning of the peace talks between Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas in Washington.

Unsurprisingly, Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Khamenei has tweeted a holiday message, and it’s as cheery as one might imagine:

  “Israel Is A Hideous Entity In the Middle East Which Will Undoubtedly Be Annihilated”

As if there was a moment to reconsider!  The Vatican’s position on
women is ancient and if there is stoning in the Torah, then it is in the
Christian Bible as well since that book is merely an extension of the
Torah.  What kind of logic says it is not?  What is this comment that
“the Vatican would not oppose stoning that is not “Particularly Brutal?” 
Is the Vatican against the death penalty or just stoning as a form of
execution?  The Vatican’s attitude is as much an abomination as is the
Islamists as was Judaism.  The Jews have to a great degree mutated
their Biblical directives involving women.  I do not know if
discrimination is still practiced in that religion.  They do ordain women
as rabbis, which I think, for a patriarchic religion, is evolved. 

I have a lot against Iran, their stance on the jihad that intends to
conquer the world and turn it into a completely Islamist world for
instance is one big reason!  Stoning or harming in anyway women who
are seen to have violated their completely male invented dogmas is
equally as big a reason.  I’ve heard all the arguments for a peaceful
jihad, which in my mind is an oxymoron.

The Islamist attitude towards women is an abomination, plain and
simple.  I should like proof that it isn’t.  All rational evidence would be
acceptable.

Islamic and mosheic cults call for death by stoning of impious and women who may or may not stray even a little!
I do not know whether ancient hebrews priests actually carried ou this brutality. According to jesus, it seems they did!

I do not think modern shemites of mosheic cult or the nonshemitic euro-asians of the mosheic-talmudic cult have caried out any stoning to death in russia, ukraine, romania, latvia, poland, germany, and elsewhere.

However it may be, torah still commands killing of women and infidels!So does also koran. I do not think [i am going from memory, tho]that bible commands such killings! tnx

I have nothing against Iran, the country, and I love the women. :p I do however have something against the culture in which women are stoned to death for all sorts of perceived crimes. Human Law #1 - No one should kill…this applies to ALL cultures, and religions!!! Everyone can be punished/rehabilitated, especially to the point where they can better their lives, and become useful to society, through spending time in a positive environment. On another note, I highly doubt that shows like “Desperate Housewives” would ever be watched in Iran. LOL…the ladies of Wysteria Lane would have been stoned for portraying deviant women!!!

I don’t believe much Western Journalism about Iran, and

the Vatican is rarly honest.

But I wish that the Vatican , if concerned, would also
speak about the abuses of woman prisoners in the
United States.  Also about the abusive treatment of
woman in Saudia Arabia.

However, this is a political plea more than a heartfelt
plea for woman

My, my, after the pedophile fiasco The Vatican is giving out naughty tickets
already. Ah, their heart is probably in the right place, bad me.

A month ago Truthdig’s lead article was wagging its finger at attempts to ban the burqa, saying it was proof of a rising tide of European xenophobia.  Seems now they want it both ways.

I’d like Scheer to use his 30 seconds on LRC to make the tough decision:  When religious tolerance clashes with Enlightenment values, which side does he come down on?

P.S.  As to the Vatican:  It was not all that outstanding in protesting the Holocause, as I remember.

Truth is, all powerful States suffer from the mad illusion that they have a “right” to decide who lives and who dies, and how.

In order to have any significant influence and not further inflame “pride in cultural differences” (!) any effort will have to be preceded by a confession of our own sins as to cruel and inhuman punishments within our own culture:  Torture at Guantanamo and elsewhere. Widespread prison rape. Persistence of capital punishment in spite of strong and persisting objections from various religious and human rights organizations. Denial of adequate, timely medical treatment to children of indigent parents. Conducting of long-lasting, aggressive resource wars in various foreign countries that kill thousands of innocent women and children.  What have I missed?

Why hasn’t our president (Obama) spoken out against this outrage of stoning women to death?

What’s he afraid of?

It would be nice to have a president with some moral courage.