PART I

There is so much misrepresentation surrounding this debate. In one of the
posts I read, “Arizona could have survived the relentless surge of illegal
immigrants”. While there always may be people trying to cross our southern
border, this clearly gives the impression that the number of undocumented
workers in the US is always on the incline, and that one day we will be
totally overrun. According to the Department of Homeland Security web-
site, under the INS immigration statistics tab, the number of undocumented
workers in this country has stayed fairly consistent since 2005(10.5
million in 2005). In fact, the overall number has declined by about one
million, since late 2007, in response to the economic downturn in the
US(10.8 million now). There is a point of maximum saturation consistent
with the number of jobs available. In addition, the US and Mexican border
is not the primary entry point for most of the undocumented workers
here(the #1 would be staying after a visa expired). Does this mean that
there is no public safety issue or debate to be had about border safety?
Of course not. It simply demonstrates that we are only arguing the most
controversial part of the debate, during this important mid-term election
year, and that fear is powerful.

The next most common misrepresentation would be that having the police ask
for an I.D. is no big deal or inconvenience if it is in the name of
national security(i.e. airport security). But imagine that you had to go
through airport security just to leave your house every single day of your
life. For many Latino American citizens this is a real and legitimate
fear. They are indistinguishable in appearance from targeted undocumented
populations so their civil rights will most certainly be put in jeopardy
should we implement gestapo style mass deportation. Just put yourself in
their shoes. “Detained” on the way to the store. Fingerprinted heading to
the gym. Arrested because you left your wallet at home and you LOOK and
sound like one of those damn “illegals”. The terms reasonable suspicion
and probable cause are already stretched for racial profiling. The Arizona
law simply gives carte blanche to law enforcement to interpret even more
loosely these already subjective definitions.

The third most common misrepresentation is that undocumented workers are
draining our economy by using social services and taking our jobs. The
terrible irony here is that it is we who are exploiting them as cheap
labor. By definition, an exploited population cannot be taking advantage
of the population exploiting them. Do the math for yourself. If there are
10.8 million undocumented workers here, that means that for every billion
dollars spent it breaks down to about $100 per person. For every 10
billion it would be about $1,000 per person and so on. The Center for
Immigration Studies reported in 2004: “Households headed by illegal aliens
imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002
and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of
almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household. Spread that $2,700
per year per household over all of the paychecks in each household and we
are still paying them less than we would a US citizen for the same job.
Making us the exploiters and them the exploited. Notice too that many
undocumented workers, visas expired or border crossers, are still paying
taxes. In 2004 about $16 billion worth. So amnesty and a CLEAR path to
citizenship for most of the people already here as well as serious
revision and lock down of our visa system may be the only way to bring
this problem under control. That would force employers to pay a
competitive American wage to all and we would be able to eliminate the tax
deficit.

CONTINUED…

PART II

Another big misrepresentation is that Latino immigrant communities are
characterized by drugs and violence. The Central American drug cartels
are a bi-product of our own failed drug policies. South American drugs
manufactured for the US market have put countries like Mexico and El
Salvador in the crossfire. While this does not excuse anyone who chooses
to commit violence against another, it is important cultural context. It
helps to dispel the xenophobic myth that drugs and crime are somehow
intrinsic to the Central American people or culture. People of all
ethnicities and cultures are equally capable of committing atrocities and
we are not without complicity in the Central American drug and gang
epidemic.

In conclusion, undocumented workers did break the law whether upon entry
or by staying after a visa expired. But that does not mean that it would
be healthy for our country to treat them like criminals through mass
deportation. They are human beings simply looking for a better life for
their families. They are hard workers, with valuable skills, who are
already contributing to this society in many positive ways. The debate
needs to be about our visa system and about what is a dignified and
humane way to address the population already here. In my opinion indiscriminate mass deportation does not successfully address either in a
reasonable way. It will only cause us to cut off our own noses to spite
our face. It will violate the rights of many American citizens. It will
further exploit the exploited and split up families. It will increase
cultural and racial animosity and violence while driving a further wedge
between our two great cultures. It does not embody the spirit of the
constitution or liberty. Most importantly it will not solve the problem.

In addition, if we rebuild the Great Wall of China along our border
people will still find a way in(mostly through the cracks in our visa
system) and probably at the same rate that we can deport them. So let’s
forget this politically motivated attempt to scare Americans and address
this crucial issue with common sense and compassion.

RE:bogi666, May 8 at 7:45 am

Thank you for that insightful, accurate, smarmy and condescending comment.

Carl:

I don’t think that the legitimate debate here is about whether or not someone
who is undocumented and commits a crime should be deported. That is the
purpose of the fingerprint database, to speed up a process that already exists. I think it is about the technology used by the Secure Communities
program and it’s potential for abuse in racial profiling and civil rights
abuse within the Latino American community. The Constitutional ramifications
are very real.

One example is that if it is ever used to pro-actively find undocumented
people it could encourage an unprecedented increase in Latino arrests in
general. The lines between reasonable suspicion and probable cause can be
interpreted subjectively. They are very close in definition*. If you are a
Latino American citizen a male and 22yrs. in a high crime urban area you might
be stopped often enough to legally constitutes harassment, maybe daily.
Profiling already happens more than we admit and this may compound the
problem. 

**** 
Definition of Reasonable Suspicion
Reasonable suspicion means that any reasonable person would suspect that a
crime was in the process of being committed, had been committed or was going
to be committed very soon.

Legal Repercussions
If a police officer has reasonable suspicion in a situation, he may frisk a
suspect or detain the suspect briefly. Reasonable suspicion does not allow for
searching a person or car, and is not enough for a search warrant or arrest.

Definition of Probable Cause
Probable cause means that a reasonable person would believe that a crime was
in the process of being committed, had been committed, or was going to be
committed.

Legal Repercussions of Probable Cause
Probable cause is enough for a search or arrest warrant. It is also enough for
a police officer to make an arrest if he sees a crime being committed.

The Difference Between the Two
Reasonable suspicion is a step before probable cause. At the point of
reasonable suspicion, it appears that a crime may have been committed. The
situation escalates to probable cause when it becomes obvious that a crime has
most likely been committed.
****
We have to address legitimate immigration reform but to violate the civil
liberties of American citizens in the process is quite literally
unconstitutional. Also, In my opinion to violate any human rights would be un-
American. Neither Secure Communities or the Arizona law have addressed some of
the most urgent issues. Still nothing about increased protocols for work visa expiration.(the number one entry point for undocumented people)

I do, however, think that there are millions of people who trickled in on work
or education visas and never left who are productive and doing us benefit
rather than harm. I can’t imagine just rounding them all up in detention
centers without giving them the opportunity to naturalize.

EdWatters:

Being in favor of humane treatment for undocumented workers and wanting to protect the
basic Constitutional rights of our citizens is not equivalent to ignoring the safety
concerns surrounding the immigration issue. What a politically tainted
misrepresentation. And certainly anyone on either side of the immigration issue would
support deporting an undocumented murderer and oppose amnesty for a violent criminal.
It is irresponsible to cede blame to “the left” or to a “left” policy for a negligent
and tragic episode involving one local law enforcement agency.

The Central American drug cartels are a bi-product of our own failed drug policies.
South American drugs manufactured for the US market have put countries like El Salvador
in the crossfire. While this does not excuse anyone who chooses to commit violence
against another, it is important cultural context. It helps to dispel the xenophobic
myth that drugs and crime are somehow intrinsic to the Central American people or
culture. People of all ethnicities and cultures are equally capable of committing
atrocities and we are not without complicity.

http://wikileaks.org/

The liberal community does have it’s own elite class, as does the conservative, class
prejudice and all. But if I were you I would stop listening to the right-wing airwaves,
because once again they are preying on peoples fear, being loud and reactionary and
generally muddying the waters surrounding the larger immigration debate.  Here is the
greater security threat, INS visa policy and enforcement. The Time Square bomber and
every 9/11 hijacker had legal visas. Shhhhhhhhhh… don’t talk about the real issue, it
doesn’t help anyone win a political argument. One could also argue that depressed wages
and scarcity of jobs have a lot more to do with deregulation of sub-prime mortgages and
the systematic dismantling of the US manufacturing base than it does with Arturo who
washes dishes at the local Sizzler steak house.(I’m not telling which one)

I do appreciate the irony of an Obama administration policy that has the same potential
to be abused for racial profiling purposes as the infamous law produced by Arizona
sb1070. As you may or may not realize there is never true hegemony “left” or “right”
(as if there were only two choices of opinion on any one issue). To reduce complex
issues to a such a dichotomous argument is not only a failure of logic and reason but
also of imagination.

All nations have laws to ensure that the citizens of that nation abide by and in return provide a sense of identity to that nation. Citizens of that nation expect those laws to be enforced by the nation. History has shown that when the laws of a nation are ignored, that nation soon ceases to exist.

America is soon to be on the brink of a nation that will cease to exist. Our laws must be enforced at the national level down to the local level. Politicians can no longer stand by and not be held accountable for the oath they swore to uphold our nation’s laws. Any area that has the politicians decide to become a sanctuary for criminals of the nation’s laws must be dealt with immediately.

Truthdig is hitting new lows in its heartless support of corporate America. They are upset that criminal illegal aliens may be identified after arrest and deported? Is there any sane American that opposes this?

I know there are many fools who think any foreigner has the right to dash across the border and assume someone’s identity, but does anyone think that such foreigners shouldn’t be deported after arrest for criminal activity.

Main Entry: in·sur·rec·tion
Pronunciation: \?in(t)-s?-?rek-sh?n\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English insureccion, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin
insurrection-, insurrectio, from insurgere
Date: 15th century
: an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established
government
synonyms see rebellion
— in·sur·rec·tion·al \-shn?l, -sh?-n?l\ adjective
— in·sur·rec·tion·ary \-sh?-?ner-?\ adjective or noun
— in·sur·rec·tion·ist \-sh(?-)nist\ noun