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Ear to the Ground

U.N. Staffers Killed in Afghan Protest

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Posted on Apr 1, 2011
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Pastor Terry Jones persisted with his Quran-burning plan despite President Obama’s intervention last year.

The threatened, and now fulfilled, Quran-burning gesture by Florida pastor Terry Jones (pictured) sparked fatal consequences in Afghanistan on Friday, when protesters in the northern city of Mazir-e-Sharif stormed a United Nations compound and killed at least 20 employees, according to The Christian Science Monitor.

The Christian Science Monitor:

Today’s violence came after two or three hours of protests over the Florida Quran burning, which was broadcast online. Demonstrators started throwing stones at the UN compound then attempted to climb its walls and attacked guards. In addition to as many as 20 UN workers being killed, at least four protestors died. The UN’s chief of mission in the city was injured but survived the attack.

Afghanistan saw several protests when Mr. Jones previously planned to burn the Koran on the anniversary of 9/11 last year. The controversial pastor of Dove World Outreach Center in Gainesville, Fla., decided not to go through with it at the time, largely due to a phone call from top Afghanistan commander US Gen. David Petraeus, who warned that the defamation of the Quran would likely cost the lives of US service men and women in Afghanistan.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 6, 2011 at 7:46 pm Link to this comment

Food Fight!

Fascism is fascism just like murder is murder, ....so be a Tea Bag be a Tea Bag?....... Being accused of changing the OM assigned topic and calling OM on his passive aggressive light bulb screwing contest has been amazingly enlightening about conservatives unthinking!

Seems, I Leefeller according to the OM rules of blogging am not supposed to use different examples, make fun of Sara Palin nor Bochman? Nor am I assigned to mention Tea Bags or Fascists, I suspect the expanding no word, topic zone would grow into one of those world famous Liberal cicada book burnings?

Tip toeing through OM’s tulips to meet his prodigious ego seems silly. Respect is a two way street and usually does not include a conservative.

So instead of fretting and worrying about which words not to use,...... for entertainment,  all I need do is change my avatar to a mug shot of Mussolini and I guess I can chase OMs ass all over TD?

Instead of addressing the issue, I find it so much easier to attack the persons,...... don’t you OM?

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By Maani, April 6, 2011 at 3:25 pm Link to this comment

OM:

I’ll miss you, even if no one else will…

Vaya Con Dios.

Peace.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 6, 2011 at 3:06 pm Link to this comment

Maani comments of fascism: “I re-read all of the same posts you did, including Leefeller’s, and I do not get ANY sense that they were directed at you specifically.”

Yes, true. You could not have had known. And while i am normally content to leave such things a mystery, this time i will clarify:

Leefeller and i have been through Fascism on another thread recently. I told him firmly i am not going explain how fascism is not the same as conservatism, the Tea party, or myself. i am no longer going to defend against that terrible accusation. It is a slap in the face and i am not putting up with it anymore. i promised Leefeller it ends the discussion automatically.

That prior conversation is found in the the Truthdig article “Washington can learn from Wisconsin.” 

Now on this thread, for the last few posts, he has been angling towards Fascism, bringing it up slyly. i was letting it pass. until:

Leefeller said: “ITW, myself and others have mentioned the Fascist connection before to the Tea Bags in relation to the Union Busting, maybe a clear definition of Fascism is in order”

Leefeller is referring to his and ITW’s latest conversation with me. There is no one else here it could possibly apply to. There was no other reason to bring it up.

At Leefeller’s instigation, the others here began the old familiar chorus, which is as predicatble and tiresome as a cicada festival. Although, yes, they had no idea what was going on. But Leefeller knew. That was all that mattered to me.

I dont mind being or seeming paranoid or egotistical to everyone else. Often i am happy to keep things a mystery. But since Maani asked nicely, i explained it nicely. Now everyone understands it.

I promised to protest and withdraw from a thread if Leefeller brought it up again. Those are my rules and he knew it. Yesterday I protested. Today i am a little late bailing out of this thread, and now here i go.

Catch ya next time.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 6, 2011 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

In response to OM’s Everything I never wanted to know and was not going to ask! Thanks for the unsolicited Autobiography, the closed minded history lesson and of course thanks for not almost calling everyone cicada.

Now that I know OM does not like the word tea bag, ....and also now I have discovered the concept of tea bags appears to be something which really sticks in OM’s craw? After some very light pondering, I can only come up with one of OM’s famous unsound assumptions and guess OM may find the word Tea Bag not only a sexual connotation, .....but a gay one? 

Being full of ones self must have some merits,  defensive merits seem even more so. I happen to find Britts 14 points of Fascism clearly connected to what seems to be happening in our nation,  there seems little room for assumptions, unsound or otherwise! Tea Bags are only one small part of the Fascist’s puzzle.  OMs offensive defensiveness aside, possibly to his disappointment OM may even be a much smaller part of the fascist puzzle, if at all.  It would be interesting to look and disect all fourteen points of Britt’s fascism and break them down? If they end up having OM written all over them, then it would seem then OM would have cause for jubilation of being once again right

I like many of Will Rogers comments; this one taken with Leefeller liberties; It seems all conservatives agree on everything, while all liberals bicker about everything!..... Even I can occasionally with intent use absolutisms,....one difference may be, I know an absolutism when I see one!

Like OM, I shall make suggestions for OM the card carrying regularly announced conservative. I usually do not tell other people what they are thinking; this may only be a conservative thing? Now it seems OM has graduated to a higher level of conservatism, by telling people where they should post? OM, possibly a large C tattooed on your forehead would be a helpful reminder enabling the doubling up those so necessary public declarations of conservatism, going from every 10 minutes to every 5 minutes?.......  I have a visual of OM standing on a soap box making his enlightening revelation to every passer by.  “Hi! My name is OM and I am a conservative!” .......  What a way to pick up girls?

Maybe conservatives should be allowed to attend anonymous meetings to discuss their obnoxious habits?

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Shenonymous's avatar

By Shenonymous, April 6, 2011 at 2:09 am Link to this comment

Your offer to this forum, OzarkMichael, is a kind of metaphoric
‘shield of defense,’ even though not much of an offense was
made, if at all, by the TD hypocrites or perceived enemies.  The
illusion, as it looks like, is that of a warrior, standing taller than
tall in self-defense, even though no actual physical aggression
would take place, and no exhibited belligerence was leveled
towards the warrior.  Nor has anyone expressed ‘worrying’ that
a verbal argument is threatening to their physical person.  What
ought to be thought of the image of a warrior other than antagonism? 
But then there is that old hymn of Sabine Baring-Gould that comes to
mind “Onward, Christian Soldiers, marching as to war…”  inspired by
II Timothy 2:3: “Thou shalt endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus
Christ.”  What hardness do you think you endure is a fair question? 
That you should denigrate the TD hypocrites with impunity, as a fair
retaliation?  Lex talionis is the rule, is it?

So is it one against the all!?  The picture is perfect to dream of slaying
all the hypocritical liberal dragons.  An ‘all,’ however, that is completely
imaginary and unreal since there are many differing and degrees of
views that populate this forum. But you do not make any distinctions.

The alleged confession is in reality a badge of honor self-conferred.  But
the fact of the matter is that the characteristics being swaggered as
belonging to the warrior has been known since the beginning.  What is
it to claim what everyone already knows?

It could be said and has been that Pietism is a step away from Christ. 
Would you be the Lone Pietist riding in to war?  There ought not to be a
confusion between pietism with piousness.  As it has also been said
that there is a huge difference between “pietism” and being “pious.” 
While a pietist bases his relationship in Christ by his own experience, a
somewhat mystical confluence of works and self-righteousness;
whereas a pious Christian is pious because of his faith in Christ.

The particular belief system that created the particular conditions in this
country came from an insightful and prescient ‘secular’ impulse, from
the likes of Jefferson, Madison, John Adams, names we readily know,
but also others John Dickinson, James Wilson and a few others. Religion
makes only one direct and obvious appearance in the original
Constitution that seems to point to a desire for some degree of
religious freedom. That appearance is in Article 6, at the end of the
third clause that reads as:  No religious Test shall ever be required as
a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

It was not until the First Amendment that religious freedom was enacted
as a fundamental moral and right of this country. 

But to give religion its due, as the history books say, it was without
exception, the Framers were Christian or, at the very least, deists
generally, deists believe in a single god who set the universe on its
course and then stepped back to watch; some deists believe their deity
is the same God of Judeo-Christian tradition, but it is important to
know that some do not
.  There were no Jews or Muslims, no Hindus
or atheists, and only two Roman Catholics. There were members of
more than a half-dozen sects of the Protestant side of Christianity,
though. Disagreements about style and method of worship between
them were nearly as vast and incongruous as any seen today between,
say, Jews and Muslims, such that the Framers wanted to ensure that
no one sect could ever seize control of a government and start a
theocracy.

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By Maani, April 6, 2011 at 12:47 am Link to this comment

OM:

“Unfortunately I uploaded it without reading today’s new posts, which just so happen to be about fascism, which are aimed in my direction and no one else.”

Although we seem to agree on much, and I like you, either you think FAR too much of yourself, or you are FAR too paranoid.  I re-read all of the same posts you did, including Leefeller’s, and I do not get ANY sense that they were directed at you specifically.  The last post that seemed targeted at all was Leefeller’s post BEFORE the discussion on fascism:

“Now I do not feel Christianity is exactly like the Talaban, but Christianity seems to have more than its fair share of self righteous moments. I assume with unsound reason, the list of self righteous good Christians may be a bit longer then what I listed? I also realize there may be a much longer list of actual good Christians I did not list! So it may be safe to say; absolutely all Tea Bags are ranting Fascist’s.  All lefty loony cicadas are the same while all every righty tightys is cloned exactly alike, just like those Mormons.”

As “virulent” (and overly broad-brushing) as this post may be, I do not see it as being a personal attack on you.  Indeed, in this post, Leefeller is an equal opportunity denigrator (LOL).

That said, the TP “made its own bed” re the term “tea bagger” when they wore those stupid hats with teabags hanging from them.  As well, they were the first to use that name, in March 2009.  And although they eventually distanced themselves from it when it was pointed out that teabagging was a sexual term, they have no one to blame but themselves for its origin.  And I agree with Bill Maher in one respect: I will stop calling them “teabaggers” when they stop calling it “Obamacare.”

Peace.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 6, 2011 at 12:11 am Link to this comment

I started to write “credo” in the morning and worked on it whenever I had a few minutes to spare over the course of the day. Unfortunately I uploaded it without reading today’s new posts, which just so happen to be about fascism, which are aimed in my direction and no one else.

Since it is unChristian for me to call your accusations “the continued buzz from the cicada chorus” I will answer it in a direct fashion.

Lets begin: There is no such thing as the “Tea Bag” Party.

That is your pejorative, sexualized, and disrespectful term for a significant informal political movement of American citizens, the kind of things Chris Hedges longed to do but he has completely given up on.

To continually compare the Tea party to the Taliban(per ITW), or the Nazis(per Leefeller), doesnt rise to a level that can be answered rationally. Nor can the prophetic nature of Britt’s top 14 be argued with.

Notice i didnt say that you and samosamo are just enjoying your daily “cicada buzz”! No, instead I acknowledge your fiery accusation, but there is no coherence in it for me to answer, no water that can put the fire out, no ear plugs i can find to drown out the cica-  eh, well, lets not go there.

Leefeller, you have used that term “Tea Bag” for a long time, and along with almost everything else you say I suppose it is only a joke.  How long has it been, a year now? I let it pass before, many times. It wasnt worth picking a fight over.

But today you will hear a sad truth. The more constantly you communicate via disparaging jokes, hoping to laughingly impugn ideals, the more you lower your own ideals(if any) to the level of a joke. You achieve a happy nihilism. Maybe that is what you want, because only the people who dont believe in anything are safe from real criticism. For example, all i can really criticize is your style.

You more have substantial criticism for me today. Yes, the old accusation of Fascism. I have two choices:

1)I can attempt a reconciliation with you. This can be done by trying to prove that I am not a fascist, trying to prove that whatever i was talking about is not fascism. But I have already gone that distance.  I no longer wish to plead for equal footing by appealing for a ‘not guilty’ verdict from my ‘superiors’.

2)I can level a countercharge, try to turn the tables.  Sometimes that amused you, sometimes it offended. It takes a bit of creative effort on my part and I dont feel like providing the music for that dance. Well, maybe a little. We shall see.

The only effective answer to being called a Fascist is the one that William F Buckley gave to Gore Vidal. Immediately Buckley replied that his dad fought the Nazis and Buckley threatened to punch Vidal unless he took back the insult to himself and his father. Yeah, live on national TV, and then he sued Vidal for slander too. 

Well i am not a violent person and I despise lawyers. So the game promptly ends, I wont play it. Never mind that, there are plenty more events and thoughts and ideals that you can joke about.

Ah, yes; did you notice something happy and delightful has just happened?... another provocative Truthdig article has been put up! 

What were we arguing over? Tea? Coffee? See, you forgot already. It was not funny enough to be important. On to the next topic! Head over to “Why not Bachmann”, where the Truthdig crowd will surely fight to prevent Britt’s steps to fascism, such as #5 Sexism.

Oh, except Bachmann is not liberal. I think Bachman is on the famous “Conservatives we want to Hate-Fuck” (read: rape) list. In that case, lets call the hilarious sage Bill Maher so he can launch a few more ‘twat’ jokes. Fascism must be stopped!

Do your part Leefeller. Go over there and say something funny about Palin or Teabags. Or both together! You have done that before, correct?

That is sexist, prejudiced, hypocritical, and now according to your own prophet Britt… it is a step to fascism.

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By Maani, April 5, 2011 at 9:34 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:

Britt’s paper was written in 2003, but he had been talking about his 14 aspects for quite some time (at least a decade or more), so while they are, yes, probably distilled from things he noticed were common to 20th century “fascist” states (more in a moment), his list definitely the TP, and even GWB and 9/11.

And yes, as you notice by my own comments to the list, I agree that the majority of underlying aspects of fascism are very much in play here in the U.S. - and it’s getting worse.

As for the “definition” of “fascism,” although samosamo provides a somewhat “formal” definition, the most broadly accepted definition includes the “marriage” of the “corporate” state and the “political” state - which was, of course, evident under Franco, Hitler, Mussolini et al.  In all of these cases, the leader and his party were put in power largely by the industrialists/corporatists of those countries.  And although we still have elections in the U.S. (however manipulated they may be), we are all aware that the candidates of both major parties are “put in power” by the “corporate state.”

That said, the U.S. is a strange - and increasingly dangerous - hybrid.  On the one hand, the two major parties are (in large part) two sides of the same transnational corporate power coin.  On the other hand, those of Britt’s 14 aspects which are evident now are sort of “free-floating”; i.e., they are not really “controlled” by the corporate power elite, or their political puppets.  The situation will REALLY become bad if and when these two things actually mesh into one.  That is when we will truly be able to say that we live in a proto-totalitarian, or even actual totalitarian, society, verging on, if not being, an openly fascist state.

Right now (to badly mix two metaphors), the American sheeple are all “frogs in the pot.”

Peace.

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OzarkMichael's avatar

By OzarkMichael, April 5, 2011 at 7:33 pm Link to this comment

I would like to finish with a ‘credo’ of sorts but first a defense of myself:

I have been accused of verbal thuggery. Apparently that refers to my use of the word ‘cicada’ or to my blanket accusation of Truthdiggers. Or maybe it applies to many things.

In the heat of argument you may make all the accusations you like, and I will do the same. But no one should imagine that this goes beyond argument. No one should fear that verbal argument turns into more than verbal argument. If anyone worries that my arguments are threatening to them personally in any way, it is a misunderstanding. I dont think i will apologize for that since it would be your misunderstanding, not mine.

Second there has been a critique of the quality of my faith. Yes it would be a good thing to be a only a Christian and be nothing else. It is a fine goal. But that is not the case with me.

I have always been very careful to let people know up front, right away, and repeatedly…  that i am an “American”, also a “conservative”, also “fundamentalist”. People often get upset by that, as if it was bragging or chest thumping. As if i am reserving Truth to my small band of people.

No. Think of it as a confession. Think of it as full disclosure. It means I own up to the particular thing which i am. It means that I am not a pacifist, or to be more precise, I am not a Pietist Christian. Yes, the Pietist movement in history is very admirable. Pietist people are saintly. Perhaps after our freedom and American civics collapse, i might become a Pietist.

“American conservative fundamentalist Christian” is a warning, one that says ‘dont tread on me’

For it was not Christian Pietism, but a different sort of Christianity that was active in history but most importantly: it was lived and believed by the common people for generations, which eventually led to the founding of this nation. The condition for freedom was simply the long standing culture of the common people. That is the stream of thought that i stand in. 

Now, as an “American” i have a responsibility to protect and pass on the freedom that we have to the next generation. As a “conservative” I percieve that “the conditions” from which freedom arose must be preserved(or at least acknowledged) or freedom will be lost. Contrary to popular opinion, Islam had nothing to do with it, nor does it create the conditions to have done so. Christianity was the culture from which it all arose.

True, our freedom in this nation is for every citizen no matter what corner of the earth they came from. But that freedom did not originate from every corner of the earth. It grew out of a particular belief system which created particular conditions.

Denial and prejudice against that is the foundation of Truthdig. The hypocrisy that it engenders in its readers, and the resulting double standard which the cicadas buzz with, needs to be argued against with the same vehemence with which their prejudice is asserted. Anything less enables the prejudice.

If in the course of my argument, people are scandalized when their vehement dehumanizing language is eventually met with equally vehement dehumanizing language from me, yes they have a legitimate complaint against me since i am a Christian.

Yes, my refusal to accept an unequal relationship falls far below the perfection of ‘turning the other cheek’. Criticize me and you will be eternally right about it. But the very freedom you enjoy to be so cheeky was not created in a culture of Islam or anything like Truthdig.

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By samosamo, April 5, 2011 at 7:11 pm Link to this comment

****************

 

Lee, Hope this will do for now:

fascism |?fa sh ?iz?m| (also Fascism)
noun
an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of
government and social organization.

• (in general use) extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or
intolerant views or practice.

The term Fascism was first used of the totalitarian right-wing
nationalist regime of Mussolini in Italy (1922–43), and the
regimes of the Nazis in Germany and Franco in Spain were also
fascist. Fascism tends to include a belief in the supremacy of one
national or ethnic group, a contempt for democracy, an
insistence on obedience to a powerful leader, and a strong
demagogic approach.

DERIVATIVES
fascist noun & adjective
fascistic |fa? sh istik| adjective

ORIGIN from Italian fascismo, from fascio ‘bundle, political
group,’ from Latin fascis (see fasces ).

otherwise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 5, 2011 at 5:46 pm Link to this comment

Mannie, what I find strange about the 14 points of Fascism, is they seem like a rendition of everything real as I have seen them happen as if I have watching though a looking glass myself,..... how can I be in such agreement?

Did this Britt fellow take everything that has been happening and break it down recently within the last 20 years or so?  Did he gather these points from Hitlers play book?

ITW, myself and others have mentioned the Fascist connection before to the Tea Bags in relation to the Union Busting, maybe a clear definition of Fascism is in order,..... for I had always thought Fascism was only a direct connection between business and government. The 14 points would be the foundation?

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, April 5, 2011 at 5:39 pm Link to this comment

DaveZx3,

Christians of convienence believe they are on the side of good because that is what they are told by their officers and by their chaplains. 

A Bradley Manning comes along once in awhile.

While I hate to hear Leefeller spilling some fine Tequilia on his bible, I initially commented here on the irresponsible reporting of such a tragic event.  If Leefeller did spill tequilia on it with intent and malice and advertised it to the neighbors and local seminary, I could understand why a ‘faith posse’ would come after him to string him up.

This Christian pastor (?) has the right to burn his Koran in his back yard as a matter of his own business, whoever reported this event to the Pakistanis willfully incited a riot and shares blame in the death of those staffers.

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By Maani, April 5, 2011 at 4:34 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:

Here it is:

Lawrence Britt’s 14 Characteristics of Fascism (my comments in brackets):

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism. Constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, other paraphernalia. Flags are everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays. [Done!]

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights.  People are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of “need,” and look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc. [Getting there!]

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause.  People are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc. [Muslims, anyone?]

4. Supremacy of the Military. Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized. [Done!]

5. Rampant Sexism. Government tends to be almost exclusively male-dominated.  Traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy. [Partly done!]

6. Controlled Mass Media. Media is directly controlled by the government or indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common. [Done!]

7. Obsession with National Security. Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses. [Done!]

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined. The most common religion is used as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions. [Getting there!]

9. Corporate Power is Protected. The industrial and business aristocracy are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite. [Done!]

10. Labor Power is Suppressed. Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed. [In the works!]

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts. Open hostility to higher education and academia.  Not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts. [Defund PBS/PR, anyone?]

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment. Police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. People are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations. [Getting there!]

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption. Governed by groups of friends/associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders. [Done!]

14. Fraudulent Elections. Sometimes a complete sham. Other times manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections. [2000, 2004…2012?]

Peace.

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By Maani, April 5, 2011 at 3:19 pm Link to this comment

Dave:

“Now that I understand the teachings of Christ, I say that it is impossible to be a Christian with such a lack of conviction.  I take some offense when Christianity is given a bad name by those who are obviously not real Christians.  Just as a Muslim might take offense when someone lumps their whole religion in with the terrorist extremists. But these fake Christians serve a purpose, just like fake Muslims serve a purpose.  They give justification for attacks against others.  Even when a fake Christian commits a stupid act like the pastor here, fake Muslims can go murder a bunch of people, and it can all be blamed on religion.  And the whole world can be thrown into total chaos by those who benefit from this happening, and it can be blamed on those religious nuts.  This is bullshit, and the worst sort of scapegoating.”

Yes!!! This is a fabulous paragraph. Thank you.

She:

“While I am not interested in “glorifying” any superhuman being, the religious have been responsible for educating the poor, feeding the hungry, caring for lepers, building hospitals, and the monasteries did preserve much knowledge that had been written in books…Christians were the first ones to speak out against slavery, many abolitionists were Christians.”

Indeed, Christians were at the forefront of most of the critical social movements in the U.S.; abolition, child labor, suffrage, civil rights.  They built more hospitals, schools, universities, orphanages, community centers, etc. than anyone including the U.S. government.  And the Red Cross, Salvation Army and Medicin Sans Frontieres (which was founded by believers, but has since become more secular in nature) have all providing international disaster relief gratis to anyone - regardless of age, gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. - for decades.

You are also right to point out that “Islamists also
developed much science, anatomy, chemistry, algebra, and oddly enough, had a period in its early history where religious freedom was the rule.”  This is all too quickly forgotten, if not dismissed, by most.

Peace.

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By samosamo, April 5, 2011 at 1:26 pm Link to this comment

****************


““8.  Religion and Government are Intertwined. 
Use of the most common religion in the nation as a tool to
manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is
common from government leaders, even when the major tenets
of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s
policies or actions.”“
*****************
““8.  Religion and Government are Intertwined.

Keen with no sarcasm intended. But it begs ‘how and when’ and
both are objectively answerable in an approximate way. And the
intertwining very much inevitable even if deleterious in effect.

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Leefeller's avatar

By Leefeller, April 5, 2011 at 12:16 pm Link to this comment

After very little forethought and some hamster tears finding myself once again, being outsmarted by Dave123 the smarmy pants and his collection of searing hurtful criticisms,.... I have decided to respond to the following: 

“Leefeller, stating that you use the bible as a coaster is only different by a small degree from burning it.  It is utter disrespect for those who believe different from you.  You and the nutty Pastor have a lot in common.  You attempt to belittle or degrade.  Your humor is equally as pathetic as the Pastor’s stupidity.”

I don’t know Dave? A self righteous value system such as yours seems a bit on the Simple Simon side.  So lets make it a little more equal and fitting by moving things from Dave degrees and a bit closer to Leefeller degrees!

Now… if I had taken my tequila soaked bible and tore out a page and blew a big loud moose call honker onto the page like a Kleenex tissue and recorded it on video and in live stereo,.... making a big animated dramatic deal out of it, .... and then making sure to send Dave; the outraged and enlightened; a personalized copy of the video,..... maybe just then;  I may be close to the nutty (as you call him) Pastor?

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By Leefeller, April 5, 2011 at 6:22 am Link to this comment

Mannie, posted all 14 of Lawrence Britt’s list on another thread and I found them enlightening and very accurate; ” Lawrence Britt’s 14 Characteristics of Fascism (Mannies)  comments in brackets):” .... This is only number eight;


8.  Religion and Government are Intertwined. 
Use of the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government’s policies or actions. [Getting there!]

During WWII, the Churches in England said God supported
England and in Germany the Churches said the same thing?..... No they said God supported Germany!

Maybe Daves fake Christians are really the tool I have always felt them to be?

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By Shenonymous, April 5, 2011 at 5:51 am Link to this comment

Maani, perhaps you are right.  I don’t visit all the forums so I must
have missed your criticism of Christianity’s violent history.  So I
commend you even more for being truthful.  I did give a “graceful”
nod to Christianity in my post of April 4, 2:37am regarding the Piss
Christ photowork of Andres Serrano, when asked why that artwork
that is accused of blasphemy did not elicit the same kind of violence
that the burning of the Qur’an had done this past week. While giving
a brief summary of the history of violence perpetrated by Christian
theists, at the behest of the princes of the church, the Popes, my
answer was that there are two reasons I could see for the reaction to
what could be interpreted as irreverent, and many vehemently did, one
is compliance with the First Amendment of the Constitution, the other
is religious in that Christianity is the religion that teaches peace and
forgiveness, noting that since the 4th century Christianity has a history
of pacifism. 

Inasmuch as all wars are fought because of three things:  money,
power, and religion, there is much to appreciate in Christianity.  While I
am not interested in “glorifying” any superhuman being, the religious
have been responsible for educating the poor, feeding the hungry,
caring for lepers, building hospitals, and the monasteries did preserve
much knowledge that had been written in books.  Islamists also
developed much science, anatomy, chemistry, algebra, and oddly
enough, had a period in its early history where religious freedom was
the rule.  But Christians were the first ones to speak out against slavery,
many abolitionists were Christians.  But we must also remember that
most of the moral laws in Christianity were inherited from the Jews and
their 10 Commandments.  So there is much to see in all the three major
religions that have been good and we will let the damage they have
done go for now to speak about another time.

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By samosamo, April 4, 2011 at 8:19 pm Link to this comment

****************


I don’t know, maybe it is the part of the country I live, but
these people have not a problem at all about wiping out
weddings, funerals, social gatherings of civilians in
Afghanistan or Pakistan and probably soon to be Libya. These
people are definitely on the thought process that those
‘terrorists’ don’t deserve anything resembling an ordered
society and interactions. As a matter of fact, I have had one
tell me that they could not stand to think that their heart
beats. Geez, what a place amerika is.

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By DaveZx3, April 4, 2011 at 8:12 pm Link to this comment

By PatrickHenry, April 4 at 10:50 pm

“The predominately christian U.S. military has been ‘over there’ for almost 10 years, more than one atrocity has occured under ‘our’ watch, drone attacks against weddings, funerals and other social gatherings have made any friends we may of had, enemies.  In many of the local inhabitants eyes, we are christian crusaders, undermining their religion and their country.”
=====================================================

The inference of course is that Christians are attacking weddings, funerals and other social gatherings with drones, and this is why the Muslims don’t like America and want to bomb it into oblivion.

While it is true that about 77% of those in the US military services claim to be Christian, when surveyed regarding why, as Christians, they were willing to kill others, they expressed confusion about true Christian teachings and a lack of true confiction about this ideology.

As a kid, my father said he was Catholic and my mother said she was protestant.  My dad never went to church or expressed any interest, and my mom went to church on Christmas and Easter about half the time.  I went with her twice in my whole life.  Yet when asked, I answered that I was Christian, mostly out of ignorance, for deep down, I knew nothing of God or anything of religion as a young man.

This describes about 80% of those in the military who say they are Christian, IMO.  Does that really make them a Christian?

Now that I understand the teachings of Christ, I say that it is impossible to be a Christian with such a lack of conviction.  I take some offense when Christianity is given a bad name by those who are obviously not real Christians.  Just as a Muslim might take offense when someone lumps their whole religion in with the terrorist extremists.

But these fake Christians serve a purpose, just like fake Muslims serve a purpose.  They give justification for attacks against others.  Even when a fake Christian commits a stupid act like the pastor here, fake Muslims can go murder a bunch of people, and it can all be blamed on religion.  And the whole world can be thrown into total chaos by those who benefit from this happening, and it can be blamed on those religious nuts.

This is bullshit, and the worst sort of scapegoating.  And the choreography is becoming a little too obvious.  If the socialists need to eradicate belief in God so that all humans can bow down to their godless/humanist global agenda, so be it.  But it’s not really fooling many people who actually have a brain in their head.

Leefeller, stating that you use the bible as a coaster is only different by a small degree from burning it.  It is utter disrespect for those who believe different from you.  You and the nutty Pastor have a lot in common.  You attempt to belittle or degrade.  Your humor is equally as pathetic as the Pastor’s stupidity.

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By Maani, April 4, 2011 at 8:06 pm Link to this comment

She:

Thank you for the kind words!  LOL.  But I think it only fair to note that I do not say “only” good things about Christianity.  I have acknowledged Christianity’s tainted past, as well as the wrongs and atrocities of the present (murdering abortion doctors, sexual abuse of children, the extremism of the so-called Christian Right, etc.) - all of which I have bemoaned as loudly and consistently as the atheists here.

That said, the corollary of your statement is perhaps truer: many (most?) of the atheists here see (and harp on) “only” the “negative” aspects of Christianity, refusing to even acknowledge (even if one believes that it does not balance the scales) the good that has been done in its name.

Peace.

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By PatrickHenry, April 4, 2011 at 6:50 pm Link to this comment

OM,

I don’t see your double standard.

The predominately christian U.S. military has been ‘over there’ for almost 10 years, more than one atrocity has occured under ‘our’ watch, drone attacks against weddings, funerals and other social gatherings have made any friends we may of had, enemies. 

In many of the local inhabitants eyes, we are christian crusaders, undermining their religion and their country.

Fundamentalist muslims didn’t need a burning Koran to enflame attack on these UN workers, they just needed an excuse, they got both.

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By Shenonymous, April 4, 2011 at 6:28 pm Link to this comment

This happy cicada informs all cicadas and non-cicadas that in
classical Greek, cicada was called a tettix and in modern Greek
tzitzikas—both names being onomatopoeic.  Assuredly I am not
frustrated at being a cicada. All cicadas should be proud of their new
status.  Happily I shall carry the name forever!  I have sung in many
choirs.  I love singing.

I’ve not seen anyone objecting to being called a cicada, just the
opposite some of us are having a good time at being called such
an enchanting singing creature of the universe.

Calling people names is a pathology and it is written as such in the
psych books.  The implied violence attached to name-calling points
to the pathology of verbal thuggery.  Pathology is any deviation from
a healthy or normal condition.  Name-calling is not a healthy condition.

Instead of being intensely defensive about being tread upon for being a
Christian on Truthdig, why not explain why Christianity deserves to be
venerated.  Commendably Maani does that more than occasionally even
if even he is non-self-righteous, evolution-believing, pro-choice, anti-
war, far-to-the-left-of-the-Christian-Right Christian!  He says only
good things about his religion and makes this atheist feel a whole lot
better about it than do many others.  What is a bit curious is the double
standard OzarkMichael to which you keep referring that some groveler
is “painting” you a lesser form of life.  Perhaps you mistake saying with
being?  One can be criticized for what was said without tearing down
the person.  Exactly what rampant scapegoating has been committed? 
Could you be more precise? 

Having dealt with Piss Christ at length on this forum, rather
evenhandedly both critics who applauded the work and those who
denounced it, I haven’t any emotional attachment to the work at
all.  Who is saying they think you are trying to destroy it, or are you
saying that figuratively to mean something else?  The shotgun salvo
of accusatory buckshot that you practice gives the image that you
think you are exterminating indiscriminatingly all the commenters
here at one time. 

The U2 concert piece Beautiful Day was a very nice gift Nappy.  Thank
you.

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By OzarkMichael, April 4, 2011 at 5:04 pm Link to this comment

The hot and heavy tempo makes it inevitable that i am not responding thoroughly to your posts.

Allow me to catch up. It has come to my attention that the word ‘cicadas’ to describe the chorus is a bit over the line, perhaps indicating that before we even start talking i am already in the wrong.

For some time(years in fact) i have heard the word “pathology” and the word “virulence”(which by the way infers the worst pathology) aimed in my direction from certain quarters, as if Christianity is some sort of disease of the “unevolved” (yet another common concept here which means a lesser humanity. For the most part i used to let it pass.

If it is true that I have lately indulged in the same sort of language, and if this makes the cicadas unhappy, i have two things to say. First, surprise surprise, it is another double standard. For the very thing the cicadas complain about is one of their own pastimes… namely, painting the Other as a lesser form of life. 

Second, you dont have to be a cicada. No one is forcing you to be a cicada. Being a cicada is a choice. Oh my! I have recieved that type of very helpful advice here over the years on a few occasions. I hand it back to you now, and i hope it is as helpful to you as it was to me.

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By OzarkMichael, April 4, 2011 at 2:42 pm Link to this comment

“This article has generated a plethora of comments——people are getting really worked up over this.  I can foresee a new law being passed——a prohibition against bible burning.”

You misunderstand if you think i want that to happen. You are responsible for that misunderstanding, and it reveals your hypocrisy. Your comment earns you a second row seat in the cicada choir.

You also misunderstand if you think i am trying to destroy anyone’s “Piss Christ”. Let people create and enjoy as they please, as long as i dont have to foot the bill.

What i do protest is the double standard and the rampant scapegoating which Truthdig encourages and the cicadas buzz over.

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By Maani, April 4, 2011 at 1:33 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:

LOL.  Thanks for the kind word!  A rarity even for us non-self-righteous, evolution-believing, pro-choice, anti-war, far-to-the-left-of-the-Christian-Right Christians!  LOL.

Peace.  (and carrots…)

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, April 4, 2011 at 1:19 pm Link to this comment

A message of inspiration from some decent folk:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSZv9KKf0g0

This is to all the Truth Diggers… even the shills… Peace to You All.

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By OzarkMichael, April 4, 2011 at 1:08 pm Link to this comment

The allusion to virulence and pathology as an ersatz for people is a pathology of frustration as well.

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By Blackspeare, April 4, 2011 at 12:32 pm Link to this comment

This article has generated a plethora of comments——people are getting really worked up over this.  I can foresee a new law being passed——a prohibition against bible burning.

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By Leefeller, April 4, 2011 at 12:02 pm Link to this comment

One of the cicadas here!

I must admit I was slightly upset last evening! My tequila bottle tipped over and spilled all over my desk and coaster bible, .....I hate it when that happens,..... I find licking expensive tequila off an old tequila soaked bible and my desk before the tequila hits the floor most upseting!

Hypocrisy seems a very important word when discussing both politics and religion, hence the self-righteous….. So we have the Tea Bags and their agenda shoved down any and all non participating people throats with self-righteous fortitude.  How about the church which attends funerals uninvited to make sure everyone knows the dead are going to hell?  Sara Paline had a prancing which burner grace her closed mind. Why does the KKK burn crosses, are they not Christians?  Then there is the Catholics doing there best to teach little boys not to be gay….. How about this one which sticks in me mind;.... The Christians who went to Africa and fired up good Christian people to kill gays, now why does that remind me of the Florida hero of free speech, maybe the anti gay Christians who went to Africa are heroes too?

Fortunately not all Christians are alike I mean after all .....there is Mannie!

  Now I do not feel Christianity is exactly like the Talaban, but Christianity seems to have more than its fair share of self righteous moments.

I assume with unsound reason, the list of self righteous good Christians may be a bit longer then what I listed? I also realize there may be a much longer list of actual good Christians I did not list!

So it may be safe to say; absolutely all Tea Bags are ranting Fascist’s.  All lefty loony cicadas are the same while all every righty tightys is cloned exactly alike, just like those Mormons.  Stereotyping has a purpose which is obvious for one reason,..... the convincing of it.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, April 4, 2011 at 11:54 am Link to this comment

Well here we are again infighting amongst one another.

“THEY” are winning, while we devour each other… as they’ve planned we would.

Anyone remember “united we stand, divided we fall” ?

Guess what, we’re falling!

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By Shenonymous, April 4, 2011 at 11:51 am Link to this comment

The allusion to insects, cicadas, as an ersatz for people is a
pathology of frustration.  Name-calling is the resort of the
passive aggressive thug.  It is comparable to physical abuse.
It has as much, or sometimes more, impact on the intended
victim or victims, in that it’s purpose is to serve damage to
the victim’s sense of self-worth, resulting in feelings of
powerlessness. It is thought by the verbal thug that the victim
would feel they must give up their own values, their point of
view and feelings, in order to keep the abuser from becoming
physically violent.  Of course over the ‘Net, physical abuse is not
possible, but the appearance of it is still there.  One wonders what
would happen in a face-to-face confrontation? 

The cicada is an interesting creature.  I have a wonderful photograph I
took of one emerging from its shell. They are quite beautiful.  Benign to
humans under ordinary normal circumstances they do not bite or sting
in a true sense, but may in fact sting after mistaking a person’s arm or
other part of their body as a tree or plant limb and attempt to feed.  So
like the cicada who sting only by mistake, it is wise to not make them
think you are a tree. Did you know the little buzzers are even eaten
still in many Asian and Latin American countries, was in Ancient Greece,
and is used in traditional Chinese medicine.  It is only the males who
sing.  Females click their wings together to get the males attention. 
They have a long life cycle of 17 plus or minus years so they are kind of
hardy little imagoes.  So it is not too bad to be called a cicada. 

Cicadas also self-criticize on a daily basis.  Atheist cicadas even more
than once a day just to remain mentally balanced.  Self-criticism is
good in that respect. I admit to clicking my wings with very critical
determination! but along with self-examination I know that self-
correction is also necessary.

While it is reasonable to believe that one must first control one’s own
mind before peace is possible, to say that peace, aggression, or
violence is just a state of mind, merely a cognitive process, a popular
and fashionable anarchic view these days, suggests that there is no
argumentative basis to rely on religion for moral interaction. That there
really is no such thing as morality, is that right?  If you agree with that
view, the next time you or a family member or a child is physically
violated just remember it is a state of mind, and religion should then
just recede in society to be a personal and private practice.

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By OzarkMichael, April 4, 2011 at 9:17 am Link to this comment

One of the cicadas said: “Well it seems murder is murder, so I brought up the abortion Doctor in response to your following comment only; “In that case, how many of us virulent Christians went on a rampage and murdered artists because of the ‘Piss Christ’?”  So I changed artists to Doctors, this is another topic, boy OM do you play poker with that brain?”

Fair enough. You brought up another example (I stand corrected, it is not a new ‘topic’)
so unless you want to hold the abortion industry responsible to some extent for the Doctor’s death, you are proving my point. To what degree do you blame the abortion industry?

Or perhpas you want to go against the tide and say that Terry Jones is a free speech hero?

I wont presume your answer at all. I will wait for it instead.

“It would seem an imperative that Christians today self-critically examine the role Christian theology and doctrine played in such violence in their history instead of taking The Defensive Position.”

Self criticism is done on a daily basis. 

It would also seem an imperative that Atheists today examine the role Christian theology and doctrine played in the development of everything they hold dear in our history instead of taking The Offensive Position.

“How dare you pass something I contributed on to
PatrickHenry.”

Is that the best you can do?

“At least gerard was not doing as so many others on TD have done and blame the JEWS for the financial crisis.”

Yes, true.

“Because “peace” is not simply the absence of war (or even violence or aggression), but a state of mind and a lifestyle.”

a good thought.

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By Leefeller, April 3, 2011 at 11:39 pm Link to this comment

“Even when you bring up another topic in an attempt to show me up, Leefeller! ”  Another Topic? Well it seems murder is murder, so I brought up the abortion Doctor in response to your following comment only; “In that case, how many of us virulent Christians went on a rampage and murdered artists because of the ‘Piss Christ’?”  So I changed artists to Doctors, this is another topic, boy OM do you play poker with that brain?

For some reason the word murder caught me eye, she addressed the rampaging part! Murder is murder, so doctors don’t count in the OM book of things,..... only artists?


“Your double standard is remarkable. Even when you bring up another topic in an attempt to show me up, Leefeller, you give blatant evidence of your hypocrisy and it only proves me right.”

Yep OM you are right…. all right,... very right,.... so right and with my blatant evidence of my own hypocrisy I have proven it? Especially now that I know Christians never murder anyone, did I just change the topic again?

For the record OM,.... since you like to tell people what they think, maybe can you tell me where I stand on this issue, the real topic of this article,... oh I see you already have!

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By Shenonymous, April 3, 2011 at 10:37 pm Link to this comment

It is always fascinating when a defense of Christian action is made
others have to be blamed.  I am being blamed for giving a rational
ambience for the Piss Christ.  It was not enough, so okay, I’ll
try to be more direct.

[]“Why didn’t Piss Christ lead to bloodshed, didn’t lead to 10 or 20
people dead, and if it had would I not encourage “all of America” to
blame the artist fore the violence?”  It would seem that what is
debatable about the Serrano work has to do with a three domains of
human actions:  ethics, theology and the law.  As far as the piece is
concerned, there are those who have argued for 22 years it is a
deserving artwork, that it questions the boundary between what is
considered sacred and that seen as secular; there are others who in
dispute say it is attempting to show its distance from ethics, its insult
to theists, and is libel for legal condemnation. 

The argument here on this forum is if it qualifies for the latter view,
why did it not lead to bloodshed?  In view of the bloodshed exacted by
Islamists on uncountable persons for blasphemy, including of recent
history, the murder of film maker, Theo Van Gogh in Amsterdam, the
fatwah (a hefty Taliban bounty for murder) against Salman Rushdie, and
even more recently the reaction to Qur’an burning in Florida, just a few
days ago, the question is a valid one.  But while Christianity also has a
long history of extreme violence, there is also a history of pacifism at
least from the 4rd century onward with a non-violent peace protest
surprisingly with sit-ins and boycotts and all. 

Yet, Christian violence against others began about the year 1095AD
with the First Crusade as predicted by Yehoshua in a novel set in the
year 998-999, a Sephardic novelist who had an uncanny insight into
what was going on in his world.  The First Crusade was called by Pope
Urban who justified its inception as a holy war.  He put it as a Christian
obligation to capture the Holy Land.  It began with pograms against
Jewish communities in Europe.  Urban’s action commenced a 200-years
war that cost hundreds of thousands of lives all in the name of “peace.”
What was that I just read on this forum, “Oh yeah.”  Then in 1452 the
“Doctrine of Discovery,” an authoritative statement called a papal bull
was issued by Pope Nicholas the 5th, forty years before Columbus’
sailed for the “East Indies”, finding the New World instead.  The Pope
essentially declared war against all non-Christians throughout the
world, and specifically promoted coercion or execution as the choice
and sanctioned conquest, colonization and exploitation of all non-
Christian nations and their territories.  It would seem an imperative that
Christians today self-critically examine the role Christian theology and
doctrine played in such violence in their history instead of taking The
Defensive Position.  While I could go on and describe more in the
history of Christian violence against non-Christians, say the 13th
century Inquisition of Pope Gregory IX and the later truly bloody
Spanish Inquisition of Pope Sixtus IV and the terrorism that
accompanied that!  I think you get the drift. 

Christianity is self-described as a religion of peace and forgiveness and
among the reasons why Piss Christ did not instigate violence are
those essential qualities as well as the legality of the First Amendment
to the U.S. Constitution.

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By Maani, April 3, 2011 at 10:22 pm Link to this comment

Gerard said: “If SOME Christians do something bad, we hold them accountable.  If any number of other Christians do bad things every day, over and over, we definitely DO NOT hold them accountable.  We let them off, pay them off, call them ‘Wall Street Moguls’ or ‘tycoons’ or ‘aristocrats,’ or ‘high society’ or ‘the beautiful people.’”

OM said: “Ah, you are saying that the crash was a financial version of the Crusades. The cicadas buzz ever more loudly.”

At least gerard was not doing as so many others on TD have done and blame the JEWS for the financial crisis.  LOL.  In fact, this is the first time I have seen gerard’s version of this.  Quite interesting, actuall,y even if incorrect.

Also, re “peace,” I have been ending all of my letters, conversations and email with that word for at least three decades.  Because “peace” is not simply the absence of war (or even violence or aggression), but a state of mind and a lifestyle.  And contrary to those who have questioned my use of that closing after a particularly “strong” post (especially when addressed to a particular person), I can disagree - even vehemently - with someone and still wish them “peace” - of mind, in their lives, in the world.

Peace.  (in our time…)

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By samosamo, April 3, 2011 at 10:06 pm Link to this comment

****************


OM,
How dass you pass something I contributed on to
PatrickHenry. You ozark moonshiners do more testing of your
moonshine than is good for you and as for your distorted
recollection of history…. why don’t you go on down to texass
and get on their ‘bored of education’ so’s you can make up
history to your own pleasure and satisfaction.  Maybe you can
get hired on o’s team to tell them liberals what a crock they
are, only how do you determine who is liberal and who is
conservative. Or just hire on the to the conservatives, that way
you can set the record straight and learn everyone some real
‘his-story’.

But I can understand why you will NEVER read Zinn, Chomsky,
Chalmers Johnson, Scott Ritter, Naomi Klein or even George
Washington’s, Alexander Hamilton’s or Benjamin Franklin’s
friend, Thomas Paine, it would take too long and you would
have to figure a way to distort what he wrote 240 years ago.

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By PatrickHenry, April 3, 2011 at 9:56 pm Link to this comment

OM,

Trust me when I say the only cicada buzz you hear is that emanating between your ears.

American conservative fundamentalist christians? what the hell are those?  All I need is another church on my block espousing that only they know the path to god.

Pardon me, but I cringe whenever I hear fundamentalist.  While I may be branded as a liberal and a deist I do know where the lunatic fringe starts and it usually begins with fundamentalist ________.

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By OzarkMichael, April 3, 2011 at 9:28 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry said: “From an Afghani or Iraqi perspective the Christians have invaded your country and killed millions, often indiscrimminately.”

A finely honed sense of morality(having nothing to do with atheism) deeply appreciated that sentiment.

Thank you PatrickHenry, for “indiscriminately and immediately” revealing exactly who the Afghani and Iraqi people need to blame for their plight. 

For if in its history the US did something good, such as perhaps a Bill of Rights, it was only a fine sense of atheist-type morality that can be credited for it. But if the US did anything bad, well, we need to shove off all the blame on somebody and keep our Leftist hands clean, and PatrickHenry indescriminately and immediately points out who is to blame, and is backed up by the cicada chorus.

Scapegoating on a grand scale, with historic sweep and present day application, Even the Wall Street Crash got in there somehow. Nice touch.

History will be written by you people. Zinn would be proud.

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By OzarkMichael, April 3, 2011 at 9:00 pm Link to this comment

gerard said:  “If SOME Christians do something bad, we hold them accountable.  If any number of other Christians do bad things every day, over and over, we definitely DO NOT hold them accountable.  We let them off, pay them off, call them “Wall Street Moguls” or “tycoons” or “aristocrats”, or “high society” or “the beautiful people”.

ah, you are saying that the crash was a financial version of the Crusades. The cicadas buzz ever more loudly.

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By gerard, April 3, 2011 at 8:50 pm Link to this comment

OzarkMichael:  Speaking of double standards, since you bring it up—you said, “If a Christian does something bad we hold him accountable.”
  You must be dreaming!  If SOME Christians do something bad, we hold them accountable.  If any number of other Christians do bad things every day, over and over, we definitely DO NOT hold them accountable.  We let them off, pay them off, call them “Wall Street Moguls” or “tycoons” or “aristocrats”, or “high society” or “the beautiful people”. say they “deserve” to be disgustingly wealthy, cut their taxes,  and permit them to use their billions to buy Congress or to invest in companies that make and sell more weapons of mass destruction for some human beings to use against other human beings, if and when.

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By OzarkMichael, April 3, 2011 at 8:14 pm Link to this comment

I guess the killers of the abortion doctor was not unsentimental Christians, but instead rudimentary Republicans?

By Leftist logic shouldnt you be blaming the abortion doctor first? “He needs to be condemned by the American people” for the provocation, according to most Truthdiggers here (if they applied their judgements evenly). Oh Yeah

But no. We dont and we shouldnt blame the abortion doctor for the action of another person. If a Christian does something bad we hold him accountable. Not a single person here would think otherwise.

Your double standard is remarkable. Even when you bring up another topic in an attempt to show me up, Leefeller, you give blatant evidence of your hypocrisy and it only proves me right.

As for “Piss Christ”: one can discuss why it is art, one can laud how cutting edge it is, how it pushes the boundaries of pornography. But that never quite explains away the issue: the double standard that Leftists have.

If conservative American Fundamentalist Christians are the same as the Taliban… you still havent explained why “Piss Christ” didnt lead to bloodshed, didnt lead to 10 or 20 people dead, and if it had, why you would not encourage “all of America” to blame the artist for the violence.

A US Senator tearing up a faxed copy of ‘Piss Christ’ for the television camara might be bad political theatre. It might even be in bad taste, but it doesnt quite reach the threshold of killing 20 people. Instead it helps prove my point, because you did not blame the artist for what the Senator did. It doesnt even occur to you. You have such a double standard that you apply it unknowingly, constantly and even with a little joke. Haha.

While most of you push an unacceptable inequality upon Christians as the scapegoat for the nation’s or the Muslim’s or the world’s sins, rest assured that you have many people backing you up. Maybe a majority in the world if not a majority here in the US. That is one thing.

But it is a whole new colossal stupidity if the cicadas of Truthdig believe that they can carve out an exemption for themselves from the very rules they wish to apply to Christians(or Jews).

Even if all the cicadas buzz in chorus, the hypocrisy doesnt vanish. It gets louder. Stronger too.

Do you hope to win this argument? Be wary. Hypocrisy doesnt pay off.

Do you think that blasphemy laws, which the UN is again being pushed towards accepting, would exempt Leftists? Maybe Obama would do that(yes he would sign a waiver for you. His friends all get waivers from the same laws that they lobbied for), but the “anti-blasphemy” lobby, some 50 nations strong, will not give you a waiver just because you are a helpful Leftist.

Maybe I am wrong. Lets to see how it goes in Egypt. Oh, and so many of you want a revolution just like that! Shall we go back and see what the cicadas said at the time? The editors at Truthdig couldnt get enough, made them “Truthdiggers of the week”.

This week? not so much.  Well, we will soon find out if there are any anti-blasphemy waivers given to helpful Leftists in Egypt.

@ Maani: you said, “Peace”. That would be nice, wouldnt it?  Yes it would, and back at you.

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By samosamo, April 3, 2011 at 7:08 pm Link to this comment

****************


PatrickHenry

“Depends who you ask.  From an Afghani or Iraqi perspective
the Christians have invaded your country and killed millions,
often indiscrimminately.”
*****************

You got that right but not just indiscriminately but also
immediately. And yes, people in Afghanistan and Iraqi can call
the xtians or ‘invading europeans’ cold blooded murders as
most anyone else can who know about american history.
Howard Zinn has more than accurate account in his book ‘The
People’s History of The United States’ which takes in not just
the beginnings of the u.s. but from day one when that
murdering scum outa hell chris columbus landed on these
shores. And to anticipate those in disbelief, they need to read
up on the insidious and dastardly roman catholic ‘doctrine of
discovery’ which in short mandates that any foreign land
inhabited by indigenous peoples are to be take over and the
indigenous people ‘harshly dealt with’(my words of killing).
And that is what that shit columbus started from the day he
landed, oh forgot to mention the most sadistical torturing,
rape and murder that anything from the inquisition could
produce.

Even to page 100 of Zinn’s book would show there is not
much of a jot of a difference of what is happening now than
what was happening at the beginning of the jamestown
settlement.

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By PatrickHenry, April 3, 2011 at 5:54 pm Link to this comment

Capt Suave,

When you get to the part of cutting off their heads, let me know.  The passage you quoted didn’t sound too much like fire and brimstone to me.

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By Shenonymous, April 3, 2011 at 5:40 pm Link to this comment

Thank you PatrickHenry for the clarification.  It is a sentiment I can
agree with which has nothing to do with my atheism but all to do with
my sense of morality.

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By Shenonymous, April 3, 2011 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment

Andreas Serrano’s Piss Christ, a photographic artwork, caused
a scandalous furor when it was exhibited in 1989.  Its loudest critics
included United States Senators Al D’Amato and Jesse Helms, who
expressed indignant outrage that Serrano received $15,000 for the
work, part of it from the taxpayer-funded NEA.  Serrano received
death threats and hate mail, and lost grants due to the controversy.
I admit it is only by impliation, but it seems reasonable to think it
was Christians who lodged the death threats!  Who else would?

It was charged that the government funding of Piss Christ violated
separation of church and state.  But that logic would say that every
religious artwork that hung in the US galleries violated the same
Amendment.  But they don’t and neither did Serrano’s Piss Christ

Under the United States Constitution the separation law actually has
to do with the treatment of religion by the government broken into
two clauses in the First Amendment:  the establishment clause and
the free exercise clause.  Both are discussed with regard to whether
certain state actions would amount to an impermissible government
establishment of religion. Supporters argued that the controversy over
Piss Christ is an issue of artistic freedom and freedom of speech. 

Piss Christ was indeed vandalized at the National Gallery of
Victoria, Australia, and gallery officials reported also receiving
death threats in response to Piss Christ.  In material they prepared
for the Australian exhibition gallery officials said: “Piss Christ was
torn up by a member of the US Senate enraged by its putative
blasphemous nature…. Serrano has always been provocative,
pushing the boundaries between the sacred and the taboo, the
acceptable and the pornographic.”  Perhaps the Senators didn’t
realize that all Serrano had to do was pull another print of the
photowork.  Joke on them, haha.

Sister Wendy Beckett, a Catholic nun who has gained some fame as
an art critic, stated in a Bill Moyer’s television interview that she
regarded the work as not blasphemous at all, but is a statement on
“what humanity has done to Christ: that is, the way contemporary
society has come to regard Christ and the values he represents.”  It
actually is in the same spirit that Friedrich Nietzsche wrote Thus
Spake Zarathustra
and his famous cry that “God is Dead!”

No, the real reason it all works, and it “all” works both for Leftists
and Rightists, is the U.S. Constitution and its 27 Amendments.  That is
the only moral authority.  Is that Christians holding other Christians to
account for immoralities strictly a private affair?  It might be a good
idea to have an atheist or two around just to keep it an honest
inquiry.

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By Leefeller, April 3, 2011 at 5:34 pm Link to this comment

I guess the killers of the abortion doctor was not unsentimental Christins, but instead rudimentary Republicans?

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By Maani, April 3, 2011 at 5:05 pm Link to this comment

Leefeller:

LOL!!  Though I must say a Bible makes for a pretty big coaster.  Might want to use “The Wisdom of George W. Bush” instead.  LOL.  And there is no sense in going down to Larry’s and breaking a few tequila bottles - what a waste of good tequila!  LOL.

OzarkMichael:

Your contrast between the reactions of Christians and those of Muslims re “attacks” on their religions is unarguable.  Though I would add that American Muslims do not react as foreign Muslims do.  In fact, the three major American Muslim organizations all came out immediately and strongly condemning the killings, even though they also felt that Jones was wrong for doing what he did.

As an aside, I have known Andre Serrano since long before “Piss Christ”; he was one of the contributors to an exhibit for which I did some PR back in the early 80s, and we used to hang out together with a group of artists of the time.  And although I disagreed with some of his “shock” work, I am one of those who still strongly believes that “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”

Peace.

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By PatrickHenry, April 3, 2011 at 4:52 pm Link to this comment

She,

You misunderstand me, nothing justifies these ‘faith’ killings but the motive behind them, i.e. killing for faith, is nothing new and the alledged evolution out of that mindset isn’t happening.

OM,

“why arent there the same bloody results after a provocation against Christians?”

Depends who you ask.  From an Afghani or Iraqi perspective the Christians have invaded your country and killed millions, often indiscrimminately.

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By OzarkMichael, April 3, 2011 at 4:13 pm Link to this comment

“There is a faction in the American Christian community that is as virulent as had by the
Islamists, and there is no argument that there isn’t.”

In that case, how many of us virulent Christians went on a rampage and murdered artists because of the ‘Piss Christ’?

There are far more funadamentalist Christians in the USA than there are people living in Afghanistan. If fundamentalist religion is always the same virulent unevolved thing, why arent there the same bloody results after a provocation against Christians?

Furthermore, imagine if we had done something atrocious in response to ‘Piss Christ’. Should the artist be “condemned by the American people and never allowed to forget it”? Would the artist be blamed in any way at all?

Somehow i dont think the Leftists would ask for condemnation of the artist. Instead the Christians who committed the (imagined)atrocity should be blamed, rightfully so, and no one else.

Isnt that interesting? Hmm. I smell a double standard! One that is hidden there all the time but always active in stimulating Truthdiggers to greater heights of contradiction.

On one hand the Leftists says that conservative Christians in America and the Taliban in Afghanistan are the same virulence, but on the other hand Leftists can abuse and insult us Christians pretty freely… and hold us accountable if we respond badly.

The real reason all this works for Leftists in America isnt because they have some moral authority to abuse or control Christians. Please. We Christians hold ourselves and each other to account, and we do so even if there isnt an atheist around.

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By Leefeller, April 3, 2011 at 3:56 pm Link to this comment

Hey Rico!

I got a bible in front of me and I use it as a coaster for my Tequila bottle?

Now some born Born yesterday Christians will run down to Larry s Liquor store and break a bunch of Tequila Bottles,.....well, that damn Larry was over charging anyway!

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By chip, April 3, 2011 at 3:54 pm Link to this comment

Hey davezx3
I didn’t know I quoted Marx.

I think the Inquisition is a fact.

I never mentioned Jesus, I said RELIGION.

I live by “treat others like you want to be treated”

There are those (jesus coming back and raptoring them up and killing folks like me) folks that I really don’t care for.

I think love is great.
I don’t see where being superstitious has anything to do with love. 

Don’t lump me in with Jones.
I was trying to figure out a way to undo the harm he he done to our nation.

And I ain’t got much education.

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By Maani, April 3, 2011 at 3:52 pm Link to this comment

Rico:

Like those on the so-called Christian Right (who are neither…LOL), you take Scripture out of context in order to claim its support of non-Scriptural acts.  In fact, in doing this, you show yourself no better than those fundamentalist imams who are causing most of the problem in Islam re their narrow, unloving, unforgiving and, ultimately, un-Muslim interpretations of their Scriptures.

Most of the passages you cite are specifically aimed at “oppressors”; i.e., those actually oppressing Muslims.  That is, the fight is to the oppressors, not ALL non-believers.  Yet even here, it is clear that this is “old” Scripture, just as much of the OT is “old” Scriptures - or do you think current-day Jews or Christians would (or should) follow some of the truly violent suggestions of Yahweh during a specific period in Judaic history?  You display a frightening ignorance here.

Many of the other passages you take entirely out of context, making it sound like statements are being made in a vacuum - this is the same tactic used by the Christian Right in the U.S. re the Bible.  It would take far too long for me to parse all of the cites you provide, but one need only read through them - and read them IN CONTEXT with the rest of the passages in which they appear - to realize that they are either (i) “old” Scripture (i.e., meant to be taken “in its time”), or (ii) NOT saying what you (and the fundamentalist imams) claim.

Like I said, most Muslims would not know Mohammed if he bit them on the ear, since they have fallen as far - and arugably further - away from their own teachings than many (most?) Christians have fallen away from theirs.

Peace.

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By Leefeller, April 3, 2011 at 3:45 pm Link to this comment

Whats this hullabaloo about 22 vegans and a transvestite? I don’t know about you, but some of those Muslims sound little like Republicans to me and if they are any better or worse then those Christians,..... it remains to be seen. Sounds to me like Christians, the Muslims and the Republicans all make crap up as they go along, just so they can piss people off?

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By rico, suave, April 3, 2011 at 3:28 pm Link to this comment

Pat:

I have the Qur’an in front of me. Let me read 2:193- “And fight them until persecution is no more and religion is freely professed for Allah…” I could go on.

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By samosamo, April 3, 2011 at 2:52 pm Link to this comment

****************


Of course, this brings to mind the investigation of the ‘religious’
issues at the u.s. air force academy in colorado. Easier to have
hate bound xtians killing for what they ‘believe’ is right and
without compunctions to deterred them. Does create a bit of a
problem, which I believe is in an ongoing investigation, when
there are military personnel who don’t side with some form of
religious hocus-pocus. Now how’s that for a brand of internal
fighting?

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By samosamo, April 3, 2011 at 2:33 pm Link to this comment

****************


Seems to me that Thomas Paine, friends of G. Washington and
A.Hamilton and Franklin, did a quite interesting diatribe or two
called ‘Biblical Blasphemy’ and another ‘Examination of the
Prophecies’.

Of course the historians of the era would certainly have all
manner of writings about someone bringing the dead back to
life or the feeding of 5000, I think that is the number, people
from a basket with couple of loaves of bread and 5 fish, I guess
it was sushi.

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By Shenonymous, April 3, 2011 at 2:31 pm Link to this comment

Collective past or not, humans allegedly evolve, well some do. 
So PatrickHenry, you justify murdering people as faith killings?
You are what you think, and you show to have a very sick mind.

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By PatrickHenry, April 3, 2011 at 2:19 pm Link to this comment

Capt Suave,

You just cited jibberish to me, maybe if you quoted me out of the same book.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/

The maligned death by ‘faith’ killing of these UN workers is just the most recent manifestation of our collective past.

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By gerard, April 3, 2011 at 2:16 pm Link to this comment

Ozark Michaek:  I don’t equate Conservative Christians with the Taliban by any exaggeration under any circumstances.  Where did you get such an idea?  “Conservative Christians” are people who often indicate by their words and actions that they do not accept the basic tenets of Christianity (“love thy neighbor, etc.”) but prefer a harsher, more dog-eat-dog interpretation. (ie. The literal interpretation of Biblical text (especially regarding Heaven and Hell, etc.)I can’t speak for the Taliban because I’ve never encountered even one, and know of them only by rumor, but I understand that they, too, are inclined toward literal interpretations of the Koran. It seems that both types of “literalists” believe in killing each other, sad to say.
  In my opinion, belief in literal interpretations of any ancient text are dangerous because they are likely to be wrong. Also in my opinion, burning these interpretations of ancient texts is as stupid as believing in them.  Killing each other is also stupid.  It’s the stupidity, stupid!
  As to the misguided chaplains, the tattoos etc., it’s all a matter of public record (if you can dig it up out of intentional obscurity).  Root around on the net a bit and chances are you will find it.

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By Shenonymous, April 3, 2011 at 1:58 pm Link to this comment

The ugly hydra head of religion is alive and virile. It was an insanity
to have burned the Qur’an by the deranged pastor in Florida, but it
was more insane by the Islamists to kill people over it.  However, it
would not have happened had Karzai kept his mouth shut and not
fomented the religiopolitical chaos that broke out.  It is the
opportunist Karzai who should be replaced.  The clerics in
Afghanistan took the moment to incite the lunacy but then life
has a different value in the Middle East than it does in the West
and killing is their savage response to what should have been calm
resolve to convince the West that their religion is really the peaceful
one they claim it to be. 

What is paper? What is a book? Even a holy book that is supposedly
memorized anyway and the paper is merely a materialistic
manifestation?

It is Karzai who needs to be condemned for his selfish motives that
cost the lives of 12 people.  Does it matter that they were international
staff members of the United Nations?  Killing a human is the point and
these people were killed with bullets, meaning deliberately murdered. 
Surely the murderers cannot join Allah in their heaven when they die. 

Jones is also a lunatic on behalf of his religion, the Christian religion. 
How can his actions be justified for a second?  His actions inflamed
the hatred that underlies his religious commitment.  He needs to be
condemned by the American people and never allowed to forget it. 
He is as responsible for the 12 deaths as is Karzai.  There is a faction
in the American Christian community that is as virulent as had by the
Islamists, and there is no argument that there isn’t.  It is paraded in
other anti-social ways, most grotesquely when influencing politics: 
Politics of a country that is composed of multiethnic beliefs.  It does
not however define all Christians, nor do the murders in Afghanistan
define all Muslims.  The exception is that while burning books is not
a crime in this country, killing people is.  That does present a needed
deterrent. 

It is the derangement that arises out of zealous religiousness regardless
where it occurs.  Using politics, Hindus go at it with the Muslims, the
Christians with the Islamists, the Islamists with the Jews, though I have
yet to hear the Jews kill in the name of Yahweh but their religion is a
big part of their culture it is almost impossible to say it doesn’t count in
the animosities.  A common thread for the hostility is religion.  And the
other common thread is the fanatical Islamists against everybody.  It is
bound to happen that there will never be concordance of the various
religions and a huge religious war is predictable, unless all religions are
relegated to a very small corner in societies.

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By gerard, April 3, 2011 at 1:49 pm Link to this comment

Rico:  you may be right that “religions is the scourge of the world.”  But it certainly exists, and we therefore have to deal with it.The entire main (and important) point of bringing up the Crusades was to show how not dealing with it, but instead allowing it to be used as an instigation to further troubles,  is THE problem.  The more wars, the less probleme-solving.
  And for many people the psychic trauma is enormous, as these comments prove. What prevents solutions?  One side teaching its adherents that the over side is evil, plus the need of millions of people to believe that THEY are not to blame—it is the OTHERS! 
  Well, at least participating here is a way to vent some of the misunderstandings and rage—but I doubt it’s a substitute for real mutual understanding because it encourages argument and reflexive defenses, not insight. In a way, it may even harden prejudices. (I seem to have set a lot of people’s teeth on edge by my reference to the Army’s brand of Christianity!)

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By rico, suave, April 3, 2011 at 1:21 pm Link to this comment

PatrickHenry:

Well, let’s see. From Surah 2 there’s verses 98, 161, 191, 193 and 216. Then there’s 4:89. Then there’s my favorite- 5:54. And 8:67. And 9:2-3,5, 29, 73, 123. And 47:4, 48:25 and 66:9. To name a few.

And I’m not trying to elicit contempt for Islam. I’m trying to complain that most truthdig posters give Muslims a pass for acts which, when done by Christians, makes them apoplectic. That’s hypocrisy.

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By Maani, April 3, 2011 at 1:11 pm Link to this comment

“His church’s membership is down to just a few of the faithful. He is basically broke. Some of his neighbors wish him ill. And his head, he said, carries a bounty. Yet Terry Jones, the pastor who organized a mock trial that ended with the burning of a Koran and led to violence in Afghanistan, remained unrepentant on Saturday. He said that he was ‘saddened’ and ‘moved’ by the deaths, but that given the chance he would do it all over again.”

Can’t say I have much sympathy for him.  ITW says we live in a country with freedom of speech.  True.  We CAN - i.e., are legally permitted to - say all sorts of things that are hurtful, denigrating, etc.  But that doesn’t make it RIGHT to do so.  Propriety may not be “codified,” but it is still important in human interaction and respect.  Discretion is still the better part of valor.

Peace.

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By omop, April 3, 2011 at 1:09 pm Link to this comment

FOR THOSE WITH SELECTIVE AMNESIA AND INBRED HATRED.


In Alexander Solzhenitsyn’s 2002 book Two Centuries Together, the Nobel
Laureate and 11-year veteran of the Bolshevik gulag expresses outrage that
Jewish intellectuals were still refusing to recognize their ethnic responsibility in
the slaughter of millions of Christians. ( Mostly 30 million Russian and
Ukrainian Christians ).

Solzhenitsyn also denounced modern Jews who pose as victims of an
“antisemitic” Bolshevik government when that government was in fact heavily
Jewish and Jews were among the worst perpetrators.

This selective amnesia is necessary for a people who ceaselessly proclaim their
“innocence” of any provocative acts, as we regularly note in their writings and
of those that have been brainwashed.

Could Solzhenitsyn have been a closet Nazi?

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By PatrickHenry, April 3, 2011 at 12:48 pm Link to this comment

OM,

It is false and unacceptable to equate conservative Christians in America with the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Says who, you?

The only difference is that we are occuping their countries and therefore serving as a rallying point in their warped interpetation of their own religion as touted by their chaplains.

‘Onward christian soldiers marching off to war’  Jesus write that?  I think not.

Sometimes I think those who call themselves Christian forget what is all really about.

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By Leefeller, April 3, 2011 at 12:23 pm Link to this comment

What do you mean by we? Big B.

Napoleon said ‘without region’; sic. ‘the masses would kill the wealthy’.  It has been a while since I heard the Napoleon quote so, maybe my sic. quote is off a bit. 

Religious attack dogmas, seem never quite yet house broken, wait and see, in another 2000 years?

I love watching a good religious food fight it remands me of roller derby with corners!

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By Inherit The Wind, April 3, 2011 at 12:14 pm Link to this comment

Rico,

Curiously, Christians and Jews are SUPPOSED to be considered worshipers of Allah.  After all, Allah is the same God.  “Allah” means simply, “The One”, or “The Lord”, or, idiomatically, “God”.  Christians and Jews are “People of the Book” (Qu’ran)

So killing Christians and Jews as non-worshipers violates their own religious law.  But, like their Christian and Jewish fellow preachers, ANY action can be justified if “cook the books” enough.

Still, I refuse to accept that Rev. Jones, who is an asshole, is a murderer.  Those rioters in Afghanistan are the murderers.  They have a right to be offended at Jones’ action. They have no right to murder people at random.

We live in a nation that still protects freedom of speech, especially when we don’t like it.  We have exceptions: You can’t call for assassinations or armed rebellion. But you CAN spread lies about other religions, and, unless slander or libel can be proven (and they have strict definitions), nothing can be done.

Should Jones have done this?  No, as I said he’s a hate-filled asshole and I hope the nation shuns him and his church.

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By OzarkMichael, April 3, 2011 at 12:12 pm Link to this comment

It is false and unacceptable to equate conservative Christians in America with the Taliban in Afghanistan. The reason Leftists like PatrickHenry and gerard do this is to make American conservative Christians into scapegoats. This is the goal of Truthdig.

It is equally false and equally unacceptable to equate Christianity with Islam for the purpose of making Jews the odd man out. The reason Leftists like omop do this was to make Jews into scapegoats. This is the goal of a Nazi.

In both cases here, it is Leftist fear and Leftist hatred that drives the rhetoric. In both cases it is Leftist prejudice and Leftist propaganda that seeks to cause division, all the while pretending to call for ‘humanity’ and ‘unity’.

Listen. I dont care which of the two falsehoods you peddle. I dont care if you peddle your falsehoods clumsily like PatrickHenry or smoothly like ITW. I dont care if I am the only one who calls you on it while everyone else applauds you. You are still wrong.

Once you cross the line into unthinking prejudice and scapegoating there is no ‘unity’ that could possibly come about. There is no dialogue that leads to peace. There is no reasoning about how to move forward.

You are part of the ongoing problem. You are far worse as an individual than the group of people you want to use as a scapegoat.

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By PatrickHenry, April 3, 2011 at 10:35 am Link to this comment

Capt Suave,

Do I need to quote Surah and verse?


Yes, if you are making false disparaging comments regarding the Koran in an attempt to incite contempt for that religion, I think you do.

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By PatrickHenry, April 3, 2011 at 10:25 am Link to this comment

OM,

I asked this question: “How many is that “strong contingent” which preaches “Kill Them All.  God Will Know His Own!”

Thats right you asked it, not me. 

I pointed out that we have a strong christian presense in the military which is bigoted against other religions and those who choose not to participate in organized religion.

The preaching of organized religion in regard to killing is far more subtle than “kill them all, let god sort them out”, the proof is in the atrocracies that have occured over and over again and the forgiveness of those sins by someone not qualified to do so.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/60240

I’m more concerned about those nutcase followers who give quacks like Terry Jones (Jim Jones) a forum.

http://www.christianmilitia.net/

Lets not forget about the “media chaplains” who create the fertile grounds from which to recruit the malcontented to fight their percieved enemies.

http://discuss.epluribusmedia.net/node/4090

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By omop, April 3, 2011 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

The plain facts are that the US under GWB followed the proposals of
Bibi Nethanyahu’s “Clean Break Plan ( check it out on Wikipedia )
prepared by Richard Perle, Douglas Feith, Wolfowitz and others to make
Israel the number one military state in the Middle East.

This to be accomplished by having the US invade Iraq, Syria, Afganistan,
nuking Iran. The costs so far $4 Trillion dollars. Millions of Iraqis
[muslims] deat; thousands of Afghans killed [all muslims] and
thousands of young American men and women dead or crippled for life.

Now the pro-israel group wants the US to bomb Syria as well as Iran [
again all muslims}.  The burning of the Koran is but a reflection of the
built up hatred against Muslims.

Most people prefer pleasant myths to unpleasant truths, and prefer to
believe what is most comfortable and agreeable. That’s one reason why
so many of us like to think that all religions share common humanistic
core values, and are all striving, each in its own way, toward the same
ultimate truth.

But Judaism is not just “another religion.” It’s unique among the world’s
major religions. The core values and ethos of Judaism are markedly
unlike those of Christianity, Islam, and the other great faiths.

Christians believe that Jesus suffered and died for all people, and
Christians are called upon to spread the Christian message to humanity.
In the same way, Muslims believe that the message of the Koran is
meant for all humanity, and they are called upon to bring everyone to
Islam.

But that’s not the message of Judaism. Its teachings are not meant for
all people. Its morality is not universal. Judaism is a religion for one
particular people. The Jewish religion is based not on a relationship
between God and humanity, but rather on a “covenant,” or contract,
between God and a “chosen” people—the community known as the
Jews, the Jewish People, the Israelites, the Hebrews, or the “People of
Israel.”

Whom is leading whom at the present? And who loves who and who
hates who?

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By OzarkMichael, April 3, 2011 at 8:57 am Link to this comment

I asked this question: “How many is that “strong contingent” which preaches “Kill Them All.  God Will Know His Own!”

PatrickHenry bluffed by putting up 4 links. I checked the links. Nothing about “Kill Them All.  God Will Know His Own!” Zero. zip. zilch. nada.

PatrickHenry says he never bluffs. Oh Yeah.

Come on then PatrickHenry. I am still waiting for your proof. Find me a strong contingent of evangelical chaplains preaching “Kill Them All.  God Will Know His Own!”

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By rico, suave, April 3, 2011 at 7:57 am Link to this comment

Maani:

Do I need to quote Surah and verse?

And are you serious with the quotes you posted? Not one of them “forgives” a person for not being Muslim. Not one says live and let live.

“Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah…” Now THAT’s ecumenical, isn’t it?

““Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally ...” Not quite the universal “Thou shalt not kill” is it?

“Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, ... I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person…” Ooooooh. A letter in your personnel file in the HR department.

As I and several other posters here have noted- Religion can get you killed.

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By rico, suave, April 3, 2011 at 7:42 am Link to this comment

gerard:

Thanks for the exegesis on the crusades and for pointing out that there are Christians in the military (oh, the horror!). What are Christian chaplains supposed to do, apologize for Christianity? And the tattoos? Are you serious?

Read samosamo below, and my reply to him.

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By DaveZx3, April 3, 2011 at 12:33 am Link to this comment

By chip, April 3 at 3:07 am Link to this comment

“religion is superstition.  It is used to control the uneducated masses.”

———————————————————————————

Antiquated Marxist propaganda, totally unsupported by fact. 

As a very well educated individual, I have read the teachings of Jesus Christ, and I find absolutely no significant discrepancies with them.  If the educated and the uneducated would simply follow those teachings, the world would be a far, far, better place in which to live.  This is not to deny the valid teachings of others with similar messages, of whom I have not read to the same extent. 

Now there obviously is an anti-Christ message in the world, which seems to be 180 degrees out of phase with Christ’s teachings.  But no one should be fooled by it.  It is easy to recognize by what its anti-Christ followers actually do.  If Christ says “love your enemy” the anti-Christ message says “kill your enemy”.  And on and on, one point at a time.

It is as simple as that.  Don’t be fooled by what people call themselves, but watch what they do.  Those who lie are liars, those who kill are murderers, those who steal are thieves.  It matters not that they say they are Christians or Muslims or Jews or whatever.  They are actually liars, murders and thieves, plain and simple.  It is as simple as that.  I don’t understand why so few get it.

Labels are useless, because people use them to deceive.  Chip uses that tired old Marxist crap to belittle many who wish him absolutely no harm.  In this he shows himself to be in that anti-Christ group, who does not show love towards his neighbor, but calls them illiterate, controlled and superstitious. 

Can’t anyone see that this is only less culpable by a small degree, if at all, from someone who burns the Koran?  Your brother has a hard enough time making sense of this life without someone like Chip and Jones belittling them or burning their books.  Everybody is not on the same path, but deserves encouragement in whatever they do if it is in the spirit of love, as in those truthful teachings that I have spoken above.

Love is all you need.  So quit throwing rocks.

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By chip, April 2, 2011 at 11:07 pm Link to this comment

Hey folks, religion is superstition.

It is used to control the uneducated masses.

Most folks in Afghanistan are illiterate.

I heard the nut in Florida was posted on the internet burning the thing these illiterate folks still live by.

Now, to all you superstitious folks here in the USA.
How did your “god” thing make light on the first day and the sun, moon and stars a few days later?

Has anyone heard of any Terry Jones (in effigy) burnings being held anywhere? 
If you “support the troops” you might consider hosting one.
I will bring a lighter.

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, April 2, 2011 at 10:38 pm Link to this comment

If it isn’t clear to anyone yet:

The U.S. of this Amerikan government uses religion ( Christianity ) as a springboard to ‘do the right thing’ all over the world… to continue the hegemony, the empire, to forward the ‘mission.’

NOT the mission to evangelize the world… NO.  The mission to colonize the world.

If anyone claims to know Christ and lends his hand to war against whomever, for whatever reason, they surely do NOT know Christ!  They surely do not know love.  They surely are as blind as the ones leading them to their death.

They, like the irreligious or other, only know what their corrupted and programmed minds have been led to believe, sadly.

The time is coming, when what you’ve heard in secret will be shouted from the roof tops!

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By Maani, April 2, 2011 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment

I have said many times that many (possibly most) self-proclaimed Christians wouldn’t know Jesus if He bit them on the ear.  This is certainly true of Jones and his ilk.  Now I suppose I should add that many (possibly most) Muslims wouldn’t know Mohammed if HE bit them on the ear.

Sad…

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By Maani, April 2, 2011 at 10:33 pm Link to this comment

DaveZx3:

“Christ said, ‘Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.’ And it was written that those who say they are followers of Christ and don’t follow his words are liars, and the truth is not in them. The guy who burned the Koran is not a follower of Christ.  And the Muslims who went on the killing spree are not real Muslims.  It is all designed to bring instability and fear into the world for purposes which should be very evident. It is time to start classifying people by what they do, not by what they call themselves.  It is time to challenge and hold accountable, those who hide behind religion in order to carry out atrocities.”

Thank you for this.  It should be must reading, since it speaks to one of the important issues here (though obviously not all of them).

Rico:

“‘Christ said, “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.’ And Mohammed said just the opposite. Go figure.”

And you know this…how?  Because of your many readings of the Qur’an?  Or because you choose to regurgitate the rantings of the right?  In fact, the Qur’an says no such thing.  Here are some of the things it DOES say:

“Let there be no compulsion in religion. Truth has been made clear from error. Whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.”

“And tell my servants that they should speak in a most kindly manner (unto those who do not share their beliefs). Verily, Satan is always ready to stir up discord between men; for verily; Satan is mans foe .... Hence, We have not sent you (Unto men O Prophet) with power to determine their Faith.”

“Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”

“He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet.”

“Anyone who kills a Non-Muslim who had become our ally will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.”

You know, Rico, you can learn alot by actually READING the stuff you CLAIM to know.

Salaam.

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By PatrickHenry, April 2, 2011 at 10:26 pm Link to this comment

OM,

Christian soldier are you?

The mere fact that these are military “chaplains” is disturbing and an antithesis of what truely being a Christian is.

What would Jesus do? burn a Koran, I don’t think so.

The ‘Christian’ militarization of America reminds me of Sinclair Lewis portrayal of when facism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag carrying a cross.

BTW, I don’t bluff.

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By sallysense, April 2, 2011 at 10:07 pm Link to this comment

leave it up to that realm owning manmade religions…
for a christian preacher to not know christ’s true path…
nor the difference either between individuals or groups…
as ulterior motives let doctrines sway low in false wrath!...

...

best wishes’n'ways for today to dawn on!... smile

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By OzarkMichael, April 2, 2011 at 9:59 pm Link to this comment

@PatrickHenry. What a liar you are, putting up those links if they prove your case.

I clicked on each of your links “Army, Airforce, etc”...and they do prove Christian atrocities such as the fact that they are… brace yourself… ‘praying at lunch’.

Oh the horror!

Come on PatrickHenry. Is that really the best you can do? You stepped into this and you raised the ante.

I call your bluff!

Show me hundreds of chaplains preaching “Kill Them All. God Will Know His Own!”

I want proof in the Army, I want proof in the Airforce, I want proof in the Navy, I want proof in the Marines.

But when does a Leftist need to prove anything here?  Truthdiggers merely spew prejudice and the rest here will lap it up.

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By OzarkMichael, April 2, 2011 at 9:38 pm Link to this comment

If you are one of the Truthdiggers who blame pastor Jones because of the deaths in Afghanistan, I have something to say to you:

You are total hypocrites. I can prove it too.

check out this website for an art exhibit: http://therandr.org/content/jesus-coming

check out the ‘monkey jesus’ painting.

Now imagine if a Christian kills other artists somewhere else during a protest against these paintings. What would your reaction be? Would you blame the deaths on the painter?

Would a single one of you blame the painter for provoking the Christians to protest and kill innocent artists?

No.

Such hypocrisy on your part! Such prejudice that you stew in!

Every single one of you would blame the Christians and no one else.

Why?

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By PatrickHenry, April 2, 2011 at 9:25 pm Link to this comment

OM,

Air Force

http://www.forward.com/articles/3506/

Army

http://www.prisonplanet.com/army-report-says-christians-threaten-u-s-foreign-policy.html

Navy

http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/399475.aspx?option=print

I am reminded of the Bush White House where the predominant majority of staffers were from Regents University.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/209660/150_graduates_of_pat_robertsons_college.html

If these “Christians” permeate our government and military, why all the wars?

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By OzarkMichael, April 2, 2011 at 8:55 pm Link to this comment

gerard said: “Within the “armed forces” during these Gulf Wars there has been a strong contingent of Christian evangelistic “chaplains and others” who have been helping the exhausted troops keep their act together by invoking Bible lore and all that goes with it, including the idea of God having said (to the Christians in the Crusades) ‘Kill Them All.  God Will Know His Own!”  In point of fact, some soldiers were tattooed with that “motto” on their bodies, just for luck.

How many is that “strong contingent” which preaches “Kill Them All.  God Will Know His Own!”

I want to know. Ten? Twenty? Maybe Thirty? It doesnt sound like a common theme at all. You need to prove it is or you are slandering Christians.

Care to tango, gerard?

How many Christians under the influence of evangelical chaplains are getting the tattoo “Kill Them All.  God Will Know His Own”?

Five? Ten? Is that enough to be the foundation of your theory of the whole damn war?

Tattoos and evangelicals are an unusual combination,
gerard, but since it is the axle upon which your argument gets rolling, you had better have proof that evangelical chaplains are influencing Christians to do this in droves.

gerard, for all your talk about “And that light is—in spite of all the palaver, the inevitable unity of a huge number of human beings”, you just managed to alienate and divide many human beings from yourself when you encouraged prejudice.

Nice going.

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By johnnyfarout, April 2, 2011 at 8:42 pm Link to this comment

Can it be that this is all that hard to figure? Even especially for the ever unctuous rico,suave? This isn’t about book burnings or Moslems, or Christians… there’s no judgment to be made from this about those poor deluded adherents… this is about media manipulation. The CIA’s strong suit. Afkablamastan is a savage war zone… part of the ever expanding front lines; and now, ‘off the grid’ units are attacking UN HQ’s… like could the UN guys be CIA guys?…duh. Nobody is fooled but a bunch of propaganda pre-loaded ignormorusses. The only people still fooled by 911 are all Americans. One measly burned up book and wow all hell breaks loose right outa’ nowhere! As if. This is the same crap as with the commies and the gooks and the ruskies and all that bullshit from our younger and equally scary days. Hell I remember almost crappin’ my pantaloons in Junior High School over missiles and nucular bombs in Cuber. It ain’t the Moslems…it’s the empire @War! Let’s not forget what a good lotta’ business war is.

  I’ve always been interested in heretics…having had some Catholic upbringin’. gerard’s sloganized quote I’ve run into before…on t-shirts and hats around special forces veterans from ‘Nam. Here’s the little snatch up from Wikipedia on the Albigensian crusade. “Arnaud-Amaury, the Cistercian abbot-commander, is supposed to have been asked how to tell Cathars from Catholics. His reply, recalled by Caesar of Heisterbach, a fellow Cistercian, thirty years later was “Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.”—“Kill them all, the Lord will recognize His own.”[13][14]  The doors of the church of St Mary Magdalene were broken down and the refugees dragged out and slaughtered. Reportedly, 7,000 people died there.”
Bush knew what a hot topic he was setting fire to when he said it…I saw him say it on TV, and I was stunned for a second… “Why would he want to set fire to the entire Moslem world with that word?” He wanted to threaten the world like that because he wanted the State and Religion to be one thing… he and Turd Blossom most likely discussed it not 10 minutes before, all so you could be arrested with state charges on secret matters, whether you were a heretic to Christianity, or Islam….which there’s lots of that once some Christian cult gets power, or some Ismaili’s…look for confiscations of guns and burnings at the biggest stakes, with American flags flying high through the smoke. Smells like…VICTORY!

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By gerard, April 2, 2011 at 6:54 pm Link to this comment

Rico:  Shall we tango? 
  Interesting your statement about Bush (or anybody else) trying to “downplay” the Crusades comparison.
Let me tell you something, in case you didn’t know—but I can’t imagine that you don’t!
  Within the “armed forces” during these Gulf Wars there has been a strong contingent of Christian evangelistic “chaplains and others” who have been helping the exhausted troops keep their act together by invoking Bible lore and all that goes with it, including the idea of God having said (to the Christians in the Crusades) ‘Kill Them All.  God Will Know His Own!”  In point of fact, some soldiers were tattooed with that “motto” on their bodies, just for luck.
  As the “spirit” (I use the word advisedly) of the Crusades has been given life support many times over and pumped full of fresh air on both sides for a thousand years, particularly with the help of Rome, practically nobody on either side has had a chance to come to any mutual understanding of what, exactly, happened, let alone why. The fact that it was more profitable for both sides to keep the animosity going is not incidental. It’s not only misery that loves company.  Mutual ignorance absolutely adores it!  It puts money in the collection plates.  Even Hollywood is not above profiting from it—(so long as it’s underhanded and not too obvious.)  The problem with the “Pastor” is he was too obvious.  As were the Danish cartoons. But as far as “working through” mutual misunderstandings regarding that crazed era when even children marched off to their death by the thousands—well, we could stand a bit of psychic cleansing before we awaken any more ghosts in that part of the world, doncha think?

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, April 2, 2011 at 4:48 pm Link to this comment

Wow Ardee!  LOL.  Cheers!

I’m surprised at your language, especially after chastising me for my supposed ‘violence inciting words’ or whatever you thought I said.

The note comeback was classic too, I dig your humor!

Why can’t folks just admit when their wrong?  I love admitting when I’m wrong, but ya gotta show me I’m wrong.. not by mere opinion.

Brother Ardee, my apologies for goosing you… I don’t mean to make enemies on here on purpose… just didn’t like your messages to me somewhere else… but no harm, no foul, ok?

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By rico, suave, April 2, 2011 at 4:26 pm Link to this comment

vpatric:

It’s funny you mention Bush’s “crusade” rhetoric. The Bush Administration’s use of the word “crusade” lasted about five minutes after 9/11. Check it out. Even then, Bush tried to downplay the religious war overtones.

And you chose to describe Jones’ act as “fanatic and hateful” while refraining from characterizing, until now, the retaliation in like terms, while it seems to me that the retaliation was far more “fanatic and hateful” than Jones’ offense.

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By ardee, April 2, 2011 at 4:02 pm Link to this comment

Napolean DoneHisPart, April 2 at 4:23 pm Link to this comment

Ardee, you taking notes? 

Sure am, asshole. At least that is the note I find under your name

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By PatrickHenry, April 2, 2011 at 3:01 pm Link to this comment

The attack, which may be the deadliest assault on the UN in Afghanistan, grew out of a protest in response to news that US pastor Terry Jones oversaw a Quran burning on March 20.

Shouting fire in a theatre, inciting a riot, this irresponsible reporting does just that.

I wonder how this morsel of ‘news’ made its way around the world and by who’s direction?

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By Napolean DoneHisPart, April 2, 2011 at 2:29 pm Link to this comment

I hope some intelligent folks in TD land understand this:

The enemy isn’t the religious person ( although, some obviously seem to be ), nor is the enemy someone on the other side of the planet who believes different, or behaves different….

It is the hierarchy, the upper class of obfuscatory elements which are at the helm of industry, policy and economy… IT IS THESE who are the enemy of the population of the world.

It is THESE who shall be made known. 

Federal Reserve is one.

The folks with big interests in the business of military.

And those who worship at the golden calf… it is these… not the Muslims, the Chinese, the whomever….

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By gerard, April 2, 2011 at 2:15 pm Link to this comment

The problem between Muslims and Christians (besides having a long and unresolved history of religious radicalism and misunderstanding) is now being used to promote more radicalism and misunderstanding. When both sides claim they and they alone have a monopoly on the absolute word of God, and the majority of believers on both sides are encouraged to remain ignorant and fearful, everyone forgets that there may be light at the end of this very long tunnel. 
  And that light is—in spite of all the palaver, the inevitable unity of a huge humber of human beings, each dependent on others to live, eat, sleep, make love, have kids and die.  We can make the life of others happy or miserable.  It’s our choice. The same sun shines on all.  The same air we pollute we must breathe.
  This is Social Intelligence 101, a class taught and learned (or not) in thousands of ways from the day we are born.  Exploitation and war are the neighborhood thugs who break down the classroom doors, march in, overturn desks and chairs, kill the teachers and burn down the school.  Or worse yet, fire drones from a distance so they don’t have to listen to the screaming.

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By vpatric, April 2, 2011 at 2:12 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

To Rico, Suave

Yes, I and queenie and some other commenters here have come down hard on the fanatic and hateful act of the Quran burning in Florida and the so-called Christians who did it. But I certainly don’t think their actions represent the beliefs of the vast majority of Christians.

However, given the extremely volatile state of relations between Islam and Christianity (certainly not helped by President Bush’s “crusade” rhetoric), and in general between fanatic Muslims and their moderate fellow Muslims, it seems that fanatics provoking fanatics with actions designed to insult and dehumanize is unwise at best, if not a downright act of war-mongering. It was so unnecessary. What did it accomplish? How many more innocent people will be killed in retaliation? How many more terrorists will sign up as a result? Whose sons and daughters in our military will have to pay for this with their lives?

By focusing on the Quran burning in my last comment here, I was not dismissing or downplaying the murders of the 20 innocent people who went down for it. For the record, I think the retaliatory killings were a terrible, vicious, unjustified act, albeit exactly what you could expect from people who have promised they will kill over Quran burnings and cartoons and blasphemous novels (Salman Rushdie).

For the record, I think you can be adamantly against book burning AND homicide, regardless who the perpetrators are. But it is for the commenter to decide which aspect of a story to comment about, and hopefully others won’t assume they can divine the unexpressed opinions.

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By omop, April 2, 2011 at 2:03 pm Link to this comment

Its always the imbeciles that seem to get the most headlines….

If this guy had any balls he should have burnt one of the religious books
that people in his own state live by.

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By California Ray, April 2, 2011 at 1:42 pm Link to this comment

Mindless violence meets demented target acquisition.

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By rico, suave, April 2, 2011 at 1:37 pm Link to this comment

samo:

I rarely agree with you, but this time I do completely.

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By Jim Yell, April 2, 2011 at 1:25 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Some people here haven’t any idea of what they are saying. In a free society you can burn holy books if you own them, you can not steal holy books and burn them. Did this minister steal the book he burnt? I believe the answer is no.

Killing someone because a fool burns a book is not permitted in any civilized country, in any “good” society and culture. We keep a lid on that kind of anti-social behavior in this country. I worry for the future as these aggressive and fundmentalist Christians take on the intolerance of the backward attitudes of Fundamentalist Islam. This behavior is not to be tolerated, but there is a sea of difference in burning a book and killing a person. If I killed everyone I dislike I would have no one to talk to.

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