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Ear to the Ground

Occupiers Hit a Blue Wall in Lower Manhattan

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Posted on Dec 17, 2011
Beraldo Leal (CC-BY)

Trinity Church in lower Manhattan.

OWS protesters tried to set up a new encampment in a vacant lot in lower Manhattan’s SoHo neighborhood Saturday, but failed when police entered the area and made arrests. Retired New York Bishop George Packard was first over the fence. He was among those busted.

The foiled attempt marks a day of disappointment for Occupiers who view a dedicated and visible physical presence as necessary for growing the movement. Trinity Church, which owns the unused lot, has refused to make it available to OWS. On Friday, two Occupiers finished the 14th day of a hunger strike intended to pressure the church to open up the lot.

Demonstrators timed Saturday’s effort to honor the one-year anniversary of the self-immolation of Mohamed Bouazizi, the Tunisian fruit vendor whose act of defiance is credited with kicking off the Arab Spring. —ARK

Josh Harkinson with Mother Jones:

After Bishop Packard tumbled over the fence, he climbed onto a wooden bench and waved for the crowd to follow. Other priests mounted the ladder while the the crowd yanked up the base of the fence to make a large opening. Someone cut the lock on a gate. Soon, dozens of people were inside, talking, dancing to rap music from a boom box, and urging the rest of the crowd to join them. But the party couldn’t last. The police, taken off guard at first, came pouring through the gate with flex cuffs and arrested everyone who didn’t flee, including Packard. I personally witnessed about a half dozen arrests in progress, but the final tally will probably be higher.

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Watch footage of Bishop Packard entering the lot here:

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 19, 2011 at 5:12 am Link to this comment

gerard, - “Are you now taking a
threatening tone again?”

-

Excuse me?

If you point out my threatening tone I may better understand how you see.

Report this

By gerard, December 18, 2011 at 6:17 pm Link to this comment

Imax:  Are you now taking a threatening tone again?
Sounds like it. You seem to be trying to push the word “force” on my comments. For months I have been advocating nonviolent resistance, and alternatives to violence, and Gene Sharp and Gandhi et al.
  Change is needed; change is inevitable; it is usually necessary to use pressure of some kind to bring about change; non-violent pressures are far preferable to violent ones. I do not approve of using violent force for change. . 
  Yet you insist that I am advocating violent force.. I ask you to stop this misrepresentation of my emphasis and my point of view.  You say once more today:  “Simply put; it’s never acceptable (London or New York) to force others into supporting our personal, political, religious, or ideological agendas. Those methods nearly always get a great many people killed.” I agree with you that violent force is never acceptable.  Period. Violence is frequently used by police. I don’t approve, but I understand why. They are trained to use violence, even against non-violence. Non-violent protesters for change do not use violence, even when police use violence against them. That’s because they, like me, do not approve of using violence. They believe it is not only cruel but counterproductive, as do I.
  It does seem to me, judging from your recent
insistent insinuations misrepresenting my point of view, that points I am making in my comments are a real threat to you for some reason. Otherwise you would not get so upset.
  Please cease trying to drive me into some ideological trap (such as “See!  I told you!  Non-violence always leads to violence!” and then yelling “gotcha!” When violence is used to quell non-violence, it is not the fault off the non-violent side, and to blame them is dishonest.
  And one more thing; then I’ll stop.  The main reason I strongly advocate and praise current efforts to understand and use nonviolent methods to bring change is that the human race will quite likely kill itself off with atomic weapons if human beings,one by one, ten by ten, cannot learn to renouce the use of all violence and turn to nonviolence as a matter of universal policy. The struggle has begun.  It will take a long time and a lot of hard work and a huge growth in spirit, knowledge, and understanding.  But it’s the only way I know to save men (and occasionally women) from continuous wars and massive suicide.
  I hope I have made myself clear.

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 18, 2011 at 3:26 pm Link to this comment

gerard,

I’ve been bringing into relief your theories, ideology, and methods. Leveling personal attacks is not typically my way. - We’ll leave those odd behaviors to ardee and Lee.

I sincerely believe your methods are potentially very dangerous. I make no secret of this. You may be aware of the dangers and are willing to except the risks or, you haven’t fully examined the real effects of some of the things you often advocate. I don’t know enough about you just yet.

Simply put; it’s never acceptable (London or New York) to force others into supporting our personal, political, religious, or ideological agendas. Those methods nearly always get a great many people killed.

Trust me. It’s not personal.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 18, 2011 at 2:20 pm Link to this comment

gerard, - “As to the question of
“force”—the inadequacy of these public
agencies themselves is ‘forcing change.’”

-

Trinity Church in Manhattan, that particular community, is ‘inadequate’ in its support of OWS, college students, the Green Party, those who
are being foreclosed on, banking regulation, campaign finance, anti-capitalists, anarchists and the rules governing appropriate training for local Dog Catcher. Trinity Church wholly deserves to be forcibly made to submit for the good of each of these causes. It’s for their own good. And, whether they realize it now or not, for the good of all.

Pol Pot is, today, noted for his ideologically driven campaign against western culture and capitalism. Nearly 5,000,000 people died under his leadership.

The end justifies the means.

Report this

By heterochromatic, December 18, 2011 at 1:24 pm Link to this comment

sally~~~ thank you for a responsive reply.

I thought that the rector’s statement was an explanation of his position even if it
wasn’t a theological one….

I certainly didn’t see it as distraction

Report this

By gerard, December 18, 2011 at 1:12 pm Link to this comment

At this point I would like to say that personal attacks on commenters are of less value than criticisms and discussion of differences of opinon on political and social policies.
  It seems obvious to me (and to quite a lot of others) that the policies of government institutions and the current behavior of corporate institutions are not only inadequate but downright harmful to tens of thousands of human beings dependent upon them. This means that these institutions ought to answer the needs of those who are suffering from misbegotten policies and actions.  The problem is in how the institutions are to be persuaded to change when they do not admit the need for change—how to work for the common good and not merely for the good of a certain segment of the population.
  Wall Street needs to change. The Government needs to change. Institutions like the Church and the schools need to change. Where they have failed, they need at the very least to stop failing. None of them are adequate to the pressing needs of a huge majority of the people they influence, even control. They are all being asked to stop and think.
  We have a very difficult job on our hands as citizens of a democracy, but it is also a great challenge and an opportunity if faced as such. Doing nothing is not an option. Doing the wrong (reactive) thing is not an option. Reevaluation and search for new and better ways is the direction in which the future will be found.
  As to the question of “force”—the inadequacy of these public agencies themselves is “forcing” change. If they were adequate, change would not be necessary.  But when a huge majority of society is losing ground, being punished by unjust rules and lack of social justice, that society cannot persist as is.  It is better to change it nonviolently and intelligently than to support its continuation as is.
  As to Trinity and its particular struggles, it should be pointed out that the same moral struggle is going on in London at St. Paul’s, the same questions are being asked and the same differences within the Church membership itself have become obvious. A great learning experience is underway there, too.  Those of us who want the Church to move wisely and generously into the future are advocates for its success, not its destruction.
  The same applies to those of us who are advocating changes for broad social and political improvement. We are advocating for the future of those institutions, not for their destruction.
  Some people believe that institutional reformations are unlikely or impossible.  Others disagree. Time will tell. But one thing is fairly sure:  Putting fingers in dams is not enough.

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Blueokie's avatar

By Blueokie, December 18, 2011 at 1:10 pm Link to this comment

Maybe some of us are being too hard on the white, bourgeois, Christians.  They are, after all, the most aggrieved, downtrodden group in existence, just ask them.  No one should be forced to support or endorse any system, unless, of course, its the one they agree with and feel secure in, especially if it requires action and not PR.  Besides, OWS doesn’t have the moral character and purity of a system that allows banks to seize property they don’t own, or prosecute people who expose war criminals while the war criminals are allowed to take a walk.  Their fragile emotional states are closely tied to their to their positions as is belied by their need to attack everyone who disagrees with them with non sequitur filled tirades of personal insults.  They haven’t been allowed to cheer so hard for their team since the successful war of eradication waged by Pres. Reagan and Cardinal Ratzenberger on that dangerous Liberation Theology movement, or the restoration of law and order and property rights at Tienamen Square. And finally, you really have to admire their ability to type while wearing a pair of U.S.A. #1! foam finger mitts.

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sallysense's avatar

By sallysense, December 18, 2011 at 1:07 pm Link to this comment

“sally~~~ you’re entirely entitled to your opinion of Jesus’ message…. you’re not
entitled to make up the rector’s mind about it.

and it ain’t no distraction to point that out.

I kinda think that people who don’t discuss other’s thoughts, but merely dismiss
them as “distractions” might themselves be a bit ....distracted.”

...

to take the subject at hand of christ’s path and message from my letter…

and superimpose it into a different letter void of that subject at hand of christ’s path and message…

and then use that to create the overblown illusion of something happening that didn’t…

such as making up someone else’s mind about it… which hasn’t happened and isn’t true…

is indeed overblown illusive distracting misleading tactics…

and also…

basic schooling needs to teach students about illusion so they can learn to understand how everyone’s standard human perception (including their own) uses illusion in its natural thinking-patterned thought processes…

it’s important for children that through simple child-geared teaching they learn how illusion can distort something from being seen “as it actually is”... into something else when thoughts (already in the mind) substitute their own ‘pictures’ (or connotations etc) instead…

in learning this then other mental pictures that resurface as ignorant social or racial or extremist or ‘manipulative’ bias etc are less apt to make big impacts as they’ll have awareness of many alternatives too… and with various mindsets behind triggers and control buttons and keyboards these days they need this info now more than ever…

hopefully they learn how everyone’s perceptions use illusion and how it ends up behind so many ideas… and they learn to recognize overblown illusion for what it actually is… and they’ll have advantages of being more prone to use added consideration as they live with themselves and others in our world here…

...

(“Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky, and of the earth; but how is it, that ye do not discern this time?”... from christ’s message)...

...

(and should anything else arise in your doings… re-read these things for yourself)...

Report this

By Pete619, December 18, 2011 at 12:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Now Trinity church has joined Mayor Bloomberg, Wall St.
and the NYPD in declaring class warfare on the poor. We
must all remain locked in an utterly unfair and
hopeless system while we watch our children’s hope for
the future evaporate. We must accept that banks and
corporations are now people; and they can pump
unlimited amounts of secret money into politics, while
we can’t assemble or, redress our grievances to our
government.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 18, 2011 at 11:45 am Link to this comment

I’m hoping others here will fully grasp the gravity in something gerard wrote.

Six times attempting to forcibly take control of a piece of real estate should not be thought as “taking control” at all. No, Trinity is being “offered a chance” to participate beyond their wishes and desires.

I can’t be the only one to see the many dangers inherent in such rationalizations.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 18, 2011 at 11:02 am Link to this comment

The main point has not been lost, gerard. It’s only been lost if one wishes to completely ignore the wishes, desires, and the beliefs of other people. Trinity has a voice too.

Obviously you wish the main to be in how you and others may be able to force Trinity in supporting your narrow agenda beyond the communities wishes.
If they do not? You’ve shown that you will not hesitate to denigrate and sow hate toward the very Community that has bent over backwards to be of service to OWS.

This discussion is precisely on point. Your petulance has become appallingly dangerous.

Report this

By heterochromatic, December 18, 2011 at 10:42 am Link to this comment

sally~~~ you’re entirely entitled to your opinion of Jesus’ message…. you’re not
entitled to make up the rector’s mind about it.

and it ain’t no distraction to point that out.

I kinda think that people who don’t discuss other’s thoughts, but merely dismiss
them as “distractions” might themselves be a bit ....distracted.

Report this
sallysense's avatar

By sallysense, December 18, 2011 at 10:37 am Link to this comment

(for any illusive distracting tactics…

re-read both those letters again…

see the difference between the subject at hand…

christ’s path and message…

and enough said)...

Report this

By heterochromatic, December 18, 2011 at 10:23 am Link to this comment

Path~~~~~ and only ONE of a very large number of us who agree that we don’t
want the government granting or withholding tax exemptions for churches based
on whether they or not those Churches’ participate in protest movements.

you idea that we should vet Churches in accordance with whether they share OUR
interpretation of their religious duties in civil matters is ...weird and kinda nutty.

How can you think that your interpretation of their ideas of conscience is
superior?

there are a hell of a lot of people who got killed because other mofos couldn’t
stand to allow folks to make up their own hearts and minds.

Maybe you would be more comfortable living someplace where there’s only ONE
established religion

Report this

By gerard, December 18, 2011 at 10:10 am Link to this comment

The main point has gotten lost—as usual.  The Church and what it represents has long passed the “slippery slope” by turning toward the “money lenders” and “business as usual” in preference to exerting all its efforts to prevent structural social abuse and injustice. Trinity is just one example.
  In turning away, the Church (along with Government and Wall Street) are turning away from opportunities to remain relevant to the future. Instead of working with common people to create new solutions to old institutionalized problems, they are exerting most of their energy to try to maintain a tottering status quo which isn’t working for 99% of their population. Yes, theirs—as well as ours—for we are all in this together.
  And in turning away, they are rejecting the energy and confidence of a very large number of their own children and grandchildren—in other words, their future. 
  The choices which the 1% are making are disappointingly reactive, cold-blooded and counterproductive. They are protecting things at the expense of life itself.
  To Trinity’s credit, they do perform some traditional acts of “charity”—but more than charity (which tends too often to judge first whether people are “entitled” or not”) is now required of all of us. We are required to “enter in” and “make way for” a tomorrow which at its base is structured far more justly and inclusively than today. OWS knows this. The Church, Government and Wall Street have yet to understand.

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, December 18, 2011 at 10:04 am Link to this comment

Trinity said no and that’s THEIR exercise of free speech and the expression of their considered religious duty. Who the fck are you to decide that you (or OWS) are a better judge of Christian values?

I’m one of the guys subsidizing their tax exempt status.

Report this

By heterochromatic, December 18, 2011 at 9:57 am Link to this comment

good questions, sally…. perhaps the Statement by Reverend Dr. James H. Cooper,
Rector of Trinity Church December 17, 2011

posted below by IMax will provide some enlightenment

Report this
sallysense's avatar

By sallysense, December 18, 2011 at 9:30 am Link to this comment

(Had sent the following letter specifically to Rev. Jim Cooper via U.S. mail the first week of December.  Have yet to hear anything back.)

Dear Trinity Church Pastors and Members,

This human who takes Christ’s path and message to heart, is writing to you on behalf of a real living and working movement, that’s dedicated to a future of fair and just improvement for the actual living and working conditions of most people.

Your church’s motto: “for a world of good”, as applied to Christ’s message; surely recognizes some similar tendencies, shared on a distinctly far more general secular basis, by the Occupy Wall Street movement.

What does Christ’s message say of the poor and their blessedness, or of the hypocrites and their iniquities, or of faith and its works? 

And what can the conscience of any church following Christ’s path do through its own actions?

Your church, as a professed house of Christ’s message, has your own soul-searching and contemplative conscientiousness to consider; in concerning a vacant lot, and space for a sanctuary dedicated to better fair and just conditions for 99% of the people.

If The Bible’s New Testament was written today, which verses in the Gospels would one most likely find your Trinity Church mentioned among; those of Christ’s approval, or those of Christ’s rebuke?

And where would the secular Occupy movement, that’s striving for more fair and just conditions for 99% of the people, most likely be found?

How alive is Christ’s path and message inside you and your church these days? 

What does it bring from within you and your church to convey these days?

Where is Christ’s path and message keeping itself these days?

What will we see it do?

What will we hear it say?

Sincerely,

Sally Kline

Report this

By heterochromatic, December 18, 2011 at 9:00 am Link to this comment

Hey Pat````` how about…..


OWS shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech….


Trinity said no and that’s THEIR exercise of free speech and the expression of their
considered religious duty. Who the fck are you to decide that you (or OWS) are a
better judge of Christian values?

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 18, 2011 at 7:18 am Link to this comment

“If (Trinity’s) decision is contrary to (PatrickHenry’s sense of) christian values then perhaps their tax exempt status should be ended”

-

I know nothing of who PatrickHenry is. I can only disagree with the sentiment.

Please people. I beg we listen to more reasonable people. It’s wrong to force others to participate against their will. Not only is it wrong, it’s a dangerously slippery slope.

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PatrickHenry's avatar

By PatrickHenry, December 18, 2011 at 7:05 am Link to this comment

It is the vestry of Trinity Church who ultimately makes the decision on whether or not OWS can use its land.

If the decision is contrary to supposed christian values then perhaps their tax exempt status should be ended, something I have long advocated.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 18, 2011 at 6:42 am Link to this comment

Re-Opening Charlotte’s Place, After a Break

Gerard, ardee, and others,

Let us listen to reasonable people. Let us not feed and grow an emotional hatred for those who have gone out of their way to aid OWS. Let us not allow the ignorance of a small few to reign unencumbered.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 18, 2011 at 6:23 am Link to this comment

People such as ardee-full-of-nonsense despise all who voice differing points of view. If you fail to agree you should leave. You should be allowed no voice in an open society.

Trinity Church too has a voice. A voice which people such as ardee never want you to see or hear.

-

Statement by Reverend Dr. James H. Cooper, Rector of Trinity Church December 17, 2011

“We are saddened that OWS protesters chose to ignore yesterday’s messages from Archbishop Tutu, from the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church, Katharine Jefferts Schori, and from Bishop of New York Mark S. Sisk. Bishop Tutu said: “In a country where all people can vote and Trinity’s door to dialogue is open, it is not necessary to forcibly break into property.” The Presiding Bishop said:
“Other facilities of Trinity continue to be open to support the Occupy movement, for which I give great thanks. It is regrettable that Occupy members feel it is necessary to provoke potential legal and police action by attempting to trespass on other parish property…I would urge all concerned to stand down and seek justice in ways that do not further alienate potential allies.” Bishop Sisk said: “The movement should not be used to justify breaking the law nor is it necessary to break into property for the movement to continue.”

OWS protestors call out for social and economic justice; Trinity has been supporting these goals for more than 300 years. The protestors say they want to improve housing and economic development; Trinity is actively engaged in such efforts in the poorest neighborhoods in New York City and indeed around the world. We do not, however, believe that erecting a tent city at Duarte Square enhances their mission or ours. The vacant lot has no facilities to sustain a winter encampment. In good conscience and faith, we strongly believe to do so would be wrong, unsafe, unhealthy, and potentially injurious. We will continue to provide places of refuge and the responsible use of our facilities in the Wall Street area. We are gratified by the support we have received from so many in the community.”

-The Rev. Dr. James H. Cooper, Rector
of Trinity Church

Report this

By redteddy, December 18, 2011 at 6:11 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

@Gerard

You wrote how Trinity had only offered ‘lip service’ and how they should
provide facilities to OWS for a year.  Its good of you to say what other people
should do with THEIR resources but in the interest of truth telling Trinity did
provide more than lip service to the movement, before the protesters were
displaced on Nov. 15, Trinity gave many of them hot chocolate, blankets and a
place to rest at a space owned by the church. But when the Occupy movement
expressed an interest in setting up an organizing camp on vacant Trinity
property at Canal Street and Avenue of the Americas, the church said no.

This move by OWS is beyond rude and it will alienate a lot of people (yeah you
know the real 99%)

Report this

By Revered Lauren Unruh, December 18, 2011 at 5:21 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Message to IMax,

It is not wrong, it is the Jesus test.

You might be interested to hear that I planned a project to end war globally. After
I had a religious experience and became a Sufi, I cooked up a plan to end war. It
has a lot to do with religion. Why?

Because when I read about the Islamic expectation of the return of Jesus, I
realized the American people had been horribly, terribly mislead about them and
their religion. That needed to be corrected.

I already knew about the Krazy Kristians in America and their expectations for
End Times, I had had lots of friends who were into that stuff over the years, so I
developed a quality control test for the religions and the various churches: WWJD?

Honestly, it is a very good question and it can be easily applied to the actions of
the followers, the priests and the established churches as a cosmic pop quiz.

I think when Jesus reappears that is something he would really want to know, just
how well his churches are doing with carrying out his mission. I can imagine him
going around to see which churches actually pass his muster. We expect the
money lenders wont.

OWS embodies the spirit of Jesus. So now that I know how rich this church is and
why, the actions of OWS in regards to it make perfect sense to me. I follow OWS,
so I was wondering why they were picking on this church. Now I know.

The church would be a lot smarter to let OWS have use of the vacant lot, because
by refusing to do so they are failing the Jesus test.

Believe me, they are not the first big church to do that. I doubt they will be the
last.

Report this

By bigchin, December 18, 2011 at 5:00 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

“...rationalize every moral justification for lawlessness…”

No, that would be both the Republicans and the Democrats, which is one of the main points of OWS.

Nothing “fractured” or “vague” about that, unless you’re a blowhard like Robespierre or Imax who can’t seem to wrap their self-important, tiny minds around civil disobedience or to recognize the tediousness of their transparently shallow ruminations.

Report this

By ardee, December 18, 2011 at 4:07 am Link to this comment

Some absolute nonsense from the usual sources here. Some partial nonsense as well. The Occupy movement, yet in its formative stages, is finding its identity and its role, and will continue to do so despite the partisan stupidities of so many anti-progressives who think themselves so cute and sophisticated.

Report this

By Marian Griffith, December 18, 2011 at 2:14 am Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

@bpawk
—-THey forget that it’s only the government who is accountable to you the taxpayer, not Goldman Sachs et al—-

I guess you managed to completely gloss over all the reports and evidence that while the government is theoretically accountable to the voters, they in fact are only paying attention to the big corporations because those are the ones footing the bill for their election campagains…

Report this

By heterochromatic, December 17, 2011 at 11:57 pm Link to this comment

Blueokie```
Maybe the reactionaries, “liberals”, and corporate
media are right, its just so egregiously gauche to
offend the oppressors````

maybe it’s not wrong to tell you that your comment is
egregiously stupid.

Trinity isn’t offended by OWS fucking with it, it’s
violated. OWS is the oppressor in this instance,
knucklehead.

Report this

By heterochromatic, December 17, 2011 at 11:53 pm Link to this comment

gerard, this site seems to cut off any link longer than
one line.

copy the full link and paste it in the address bar,

it’s worth the effort.

Report this

By do over, December 17, 2011 at 10:36 pm Link to this comment

It’s the Banks stupid!

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By nouveaupoor, December 17, 2011 at 10:15 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

I agree that this OWS group at Trinity is probably alienating as many people as anything else. They could have been more strategic about the battle they chose, because this makes them appear driven by a desire to retaliate against Trinity Church. ( BTW, in my opinion, it’s naive to think a church will wholeheartedly back a grassroots, street level political movement. Take a look at the Vatican, stuffed with gold, sitting on billions of dollars of international real estate, and jobless Europeans are rioting.)

Back to the subject.

If you live outside New York City, perhaps you have to try to understand OWS is the latest in a decades old battle regarding public vs. private space.  They are attempting to make a point which is historically near and dear to the poor and working class people of New York City. That point is: in New York there is no place for a homeless or even temporarily displaced person to “occupy”, and I mean nowhere.  You are not welcome to “occupy” space period.  If you are homeless, you go to a shelter, you must follow rules and fend off theft and you cannot stay there during the day. They toss you out on the street in the morning.  New York City is an oppressively owned, controlled and privatized environment. You are reminded of your lack of ownership with every step you take on a Manhattan street.  There are lovely parks in Manhattan neighborhoods to which the one percent have a key. They admit only themselves. You can look in from the outside, but even on the outside the streets are not yours to occupy. And yet real people live here.

While I think OWS may not be winning people over by acting as squatters, I understand the roots of their frustration and why they are inspired to try to occupy Trinity’s space.  I only wish there could be meaningful dialogue between policymakers, church and occupiers on the very claustrophobic issue of private space vs. public consciousness.

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 17, 2011 at 10:08 pm Link to this comment

This is now the sixth time OWS has attempted to take control of this particular piece of property for its own use.

Some would have people believing that six times attempting to forcibly take control of a piece of real estate is not to be considered as “taking control” at all. No, Trinity is being “offered a chance” to participate beyond their own wishes.

NOBODY should be forced to participate. This is wrong.

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Blueokie's avatar

By Blueokie, December 17, 2011 at 9:46 pm Link to this comment

Maybe the reactionaries, “liberals”, and corporate media are right, its just so egregiously gauche to offend the oppressors.

Report this
IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 17, 2011 at 9:23 pm Link to this comment

People such as Gerard are able to locate and rationalize every moral justification for lawlessness if the cause is deemed just. - We may take what we must in the name of revolution!

It’s not enough that the Trinity community offers it’s bathrooms, meeting rooms, and sanctuaries. It’s not enough that Trinity opens its Community Center with internet and computer facilities to all OWS protesters. It’‘s not enough that Trinity has hosted numerous OWS Action Councils. It’s not enough that Trinity operates an outreach program which feeds hundreds of needy families. It’s not enough that Trinity coordinates warm clothes for disadvantaged children. It’s not enough that Trinity actively participates in combating adult illiteracy. - It’s all simple Lip Service.

NOBODY should be forced to participate. It’s wrong no matter how one rationalizes such measures.

Report this

By gerard, December 17, 2011 at 9:21 pm Link to this comment

heterochromatic: Here’s what I get from your citation:  ” Page not found
Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog Occupied Bishop does not exist.”
  I would expect Packard to write an informative and reasonable piece. I wrote Trinity on behalf of the hunger-strikers yesterday. 
  What’s all this nonsense about “forcibly taking control” and “forcibly made to ...”  The Church is being offered an opportunity which it really can’t afford to reject. And the Church knows this in the depths of its Christian heart and soul.  It’s not what Trinity does,  but what they don’t do that is significant.  They don’t negotiate on behalf of ... They don’t make alternative suggestions ....  They don’t keep the police out of the scene ... They don’t use the weight of the entire Christmas Season to indicate clearly what they can do to help America regain its lost soul and throw the “money-changers” out of the “temple.” Business as usual is more their dish of tea—with the exception of some individual members, of course, as is always the case.
This is not a problem of who has “higher authority”!!  It’s a problem of human relations, of justice, of proportional representation.  It’s not the storming of the Bastille, for Pete’s sake! It’s a bunch of young adults feeling their way into the disordered life of a failing nation and watching their futures run down the drain. If Trinity doesn’t have sense enough to know how to try to fill in some of the gaps with passionate faith and dedicated funds and effective action to reach the “top echelons” of power, that says more than enough about “the Church.”

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By Chilli, December 17, 2011 at 9:11 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Movements like OWS have been penetrated by liberal-cons fom the establishment for
years. They know that these groups can easily be lead astray. The real problem is in
Washington, at the Federal Reserve, the Justce Dept and White House. I’ll bet they are
ready to come to terms with the reality of their Meddiah being the bad guy though.
Probably won’t be until they are indefinitely detail without trail.

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By heterochromatic, December 17, 2011 at 8:30 pm Link to this comment

gerard~~~Trinity has been more supportive of OWS than
most. Denigrating what they’ve been as “lip service”
is flat unjust,

OWS is DEMANDING that Trinity go further than Trinity
wishes to go….OWS has no legitimacy to declare that
OWS has the right to lead Trinity and that Trinity
must submit to the leadership of OWS.

OWS has the option of asking Trinity to re-consider
and has every opportunity to try giving Trinity
REASONS to re-consider….and Trinity has been quite
willing both to meet and to listen…..

but OWS hasn’t any basis for proclaiming that they
are a higher authority…and that Trinity answers to
them….and they will take what isn’t offered, 

BTW, Trinity gave the hunger strikers something that
they ate.

Read this…...in the Name of OWS, you are commanded
to read
(it’s rather good and written by Bishop Packard)


http://bishopsnotebook.blogspot.com/2011/12/trinity-
compassion.html

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Robespierre115's avatar

By Robespierre115, December 17, 2011 at 8:21 pm Link to this comment

@gerard, I doubt the Bishops of an Episcopal church make six figure salaries. To attack the 1% in the church you need to go after Joel Osteen, Benny Hinn, the Pope, Rick Warren etc. The clerics who were arrested with the OWS protesters are not wealthy men, the average Protestant preacher is also particularly wealthy unless, as mentioned above, you belong to the megachurch, pop Christianity crowd, or the Pentacostal movement particularly strong in Hispanic communities where the preachers openly flaunt their wealth and explicitly emphasize “prosperity” in their messages. But for OWS to storm church grounds is a bit ridiculous, especially since it’s own core ideas remain fractured and vague.

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By gerard, December 17, 2011 at 8:00 pm Link to this comment

Tsk! tsk! you TD grannies!  This will be seen as a successful attempt to get wide media coverage for the fact that a wealthy (1%) Christian Church has refused to use its best practical efforts to lend support to OWS beyond lip service.

What baffles me is how (sophisticated?) New Yorkers can fall into this kind of trap. The city is rich enough and smart enough to move beyond symbolics into practical responses to indicate real concern and understanding of the problems of the 99% and real willingness to help find solutions. Trinity itself could afford to offere the land and provide portable toilets and showers for a year and never feel the difference. They could specify limits in exchange. They could partner in situations where mortgaged homes have been seized. They could preach weekly sermons and publicize New York City’s slums, degrading schools, racial biases, homelessness etc.
  OWS aims are the same as Christian aims! Trinity prefers to “pass by on the other side” and unless the people of New York offer a more constructive solution, the city will stand in support of property over people—which is exactly the Wall Street 1% message and the “philosophy” that is bringing the country to its knees, sooner or later.
  Just one more habituated response.  Where’s the creativity? The unity?  The foresight?

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By heterochromatic, December 17, 2011 at 7:53 pm Link to this comment

glider~~~ How is harassing Trinity Church

” ...targeting the root cause of the problem which is
the money in politics.” ????

where’s the solid connection?

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By glider, December 17, 2011 at 7:45 pm Link to this comment

The trolls are doing anything they can to attack the OWS movement that offends their elitist sensibilities.  They truly doth protest too much. 

It is encouraging, even for this atheist, to see a brave retired church official protest his church’s policies in this way.  It is hardly surprising that the man is retired as their system, like the corporate system, and like the government system will not allow such dissent among their active ranks.

Power to OWS!

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By glider, December 17, 2011 at 7:36 pm Link to this comment

Bpawk,

Please don’t “advise” OWS.  They are targeting the root cause of the problem which is the money in politics.  You can make all the appeals you want to politicians.  OWS knows that will be to no avail.  If you do not end legalized bribery in government nothing will change.  The government system is rotten and corrupt.  So why do you suggest taking one’s complaints to corrupt “leaders” who only function to serve their elite masters.  OWS has it largely right in targeting the bribers/corrupters themselves.

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 17, 2011 at 7:25 pm Link to this comment

Robespierre115,

OWS morphed into an unruly, unhealthy and unproductive spectacle six weeks ago. Only the most hopeful ‘revolutionaries’ failed to see this.

NOBODY should be forced to participate.

What an embarrassment.

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By L., December 17, 2011 at 6:43 pm Link to this comment
(Unregistered commenter)

Do you know the story of Jesus throwing out the money changers from the
temple? Do you think He was wrong?

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Robespierre115's avatar

By Robespierre115, December 17, 2011 at 6:34 pm Link to this comment

Nothing much is being accomplished here. It’s turning into a muddled mess.

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By heterochromatic, December 17, 2011 at 5:55 pm Link to this comment

At some point, people have to admit that there isn’t
sufficient justification for all the effort
concentrated in taking aim at Trinity and taking over
this lot.

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IMax's avatar

By IMax, December 17, 2011 at 5:41 pm Link to this comment

I am completely disgusted. This is not right. This is not liberalism. These types of actions are not in the name of the oppressed. NOBODY should be forcibly made to participate.

Trinity has done more than most to assist OWS protesters. That is a near certainty. Demanding, then forcibly taking control of, a ‘sanctuary’ from Trinity is, by definition, fascistic.

This is wrong, folks. Just plain wrong.

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By bpawk, December 17, 2011 at 5:16 pm Link to this comment

The occupiers will do anything but face the real demon - the US government - who enables all wall street elites to take advantage of laws written just for them - at everyone else’s expense. THey forget that it’s only the government who is accountable to you the taxpayer, not Goldman Sachs et al - I guess they don’t want to be seen criticizing Obama as they voted for him and they will again - so why protest in the first place?

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