In an article on another blogsite, it stated,

“Joe Biden called Tea Party members “terrorists.” He called people who believe in the Constitution, the right to vote, curtailing spending money that we don’t have, and stopping the creation of money out of thin air are terrorists.”
———————————————-

Folks need to start realizing that debt has only one purpose, to funnel billions upon billions to the private central banks and their .01% owners.  Debt is their scheme to control the world by controling all the money in the world.

They promote war because it increases debt.
They promote social programs because it increases debt. 
They promote living beyond ones means becuase it increases debt. 
They promote consumerism because it increases debt.

They don’t promote these things based on whether they are beneficial or not, but solely because they increase debt, which increases their profits and the state of bondage amongst the masses.  The elite don’t care if the poor eat or not, not if there are ten wars going on or not.  The elite push for war and upheaval. 

Debt through the lending of “fake” (fiat) money printed up yesterday, is how we are controlled.

I am starting to see that a primary strategy to maintain ever increasing amounts of debt, is this linking it to the emotional issues.  ie:  If we don’t go into debt, the poor will starve. etc, etc.  The elite try to wrap it all in emotionalism and patriotism to get the masses to be able to rationalize slipping into these outrageous levels of debt.   

Well, we definitely need to find ways to ensure the poor do not starve, etc, etc, but ever increasing debt isn’t one of them.  Debt should be excluded from the conversation as a legitimate strategy for funding anything. 

To try to paint the Tea Party as terrorists, is just playing into the central bankers agenda to create the emotional issue. 

Biden should be ashamed of himself for his statements.  Is he actually a dupe, or is he a big player?

The Tea Party platform is a legitimate one which deserves honest, transparent debate, not demonizing.  I am suspicious of those who say the Tea Party is a far right ideology.  Since when is getting out of debt a far right wing idea?  Getting out of debt benefits everyone, except the elite.

By Cliff Carson, July 29 at 6:40 pm

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2712

—————————————————————————

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!

Best article I have ever read on the subject. 

The system of printing money out of thin air by a private for profit bank, which is then loaned to governments to fund all sorts of programs from wars to welfare, seems to benefit everyone on the surface.

The left get their expenseive redistribution of wealth programs, the right get their expensive wars,  the government gets its funding, and the rich get their outrageous profits.

No question wars are funded on both sides by this central banking system.  No question the expedience of loaning a government money which it gives out as welfare, food stamps and other social engineering programs only to tax the upper incomes to pay the debt back, is a massive redistribution scheme.  No question that the government and the central banks hold hands while they pull all of this off, as they both benefit greatly. 

It is this system of printing money out of thin air that allows the .01% to slowly but surely funnel all wealth from the masses to themselves.

I think it is very likely that Kennedy was assasinated because he passed legislation to end the federal reserve system, as evidenced by the fact that LBJ terminated that legislation as soon as he came into power. 

Until the people are free from this unconstitutional, fraudulent system, they will be in no position to solve the other major problems we face.

Regarding the current debt limit debates, I think it must be seen that this forever increasing of the debt limit is a primary tool of the central bankers to enforce their stranglehold on the masses.

Why so many people see increasing the debt ceiling as a positive thing, and cite that it must be good, as we always do it, is beyond me.  I think they just listen to their leaders, who are in cahoots with the “system”.  Debt only benefits the lender.

To eliminate debt and deficits is to free youself from the banking vampires, and is the absolute primary thrust of the Tea Party, yet they are demonized for it, as though it is unpatriotic to want to eliminate debt and defit, which in the long run wouldl benefit everyone. 

Very strange.

The underlying cause of the Economic condition and loss of Constitutional Rights in America stem from:

1)  U S Militarization (Corporate and Military Empire Building).  This costs amounts to nearly half the annual National budget which is now running about $1.4 Trillion in the red annually.  It is presented as “Making our Nation safe”.  All you are asked to do is pay for it and give up Constitutional Rights.  If you observe carefully you will find that your “safety” is driving you into poverty, economic slavery, and ultimately a complete loss of freedom.  There are some winners though.  Do I need to tell you who they are?

2)  Unjust Corporate exploitation of American workers and the Corporate Tax Laws.  Although the Corporate Tax Rate is at a maximum 35% , the Corporate average Tax paid is around 8%.  And nearly half the largest Corporations not only pay no tax, they receive subsidies.  Meanwhile the American workers wages have been declining and the Republican Party is on a Crusade to bust Unions.  Just recently the Republican house has held up funding for the Federal Aviation Administration causing the layoff of thousands of workers and stoppage of all construction activities unless the Union agrees to changing the election of union representation such that all employees who don’t vote in the election , will be counted as a “No” vote to Union Representation.  I think Corporations in their incestuous relationship with the Republican Party are getting some of the ALEC input.

3)  The plundering activities of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund.  I just reported about the findings of the first and only audit of the Federal Reserve ( Reported by Senator Sanders ) that the audit revealed a secret lending to U S Banks,  and yes,  Foreign Banks to the tune of $16 Trillion .  Also remember that when the Fed generates that money out of thin air, the Private Corporation Central Banks receive a 6% per annum return for holding the initial amount ( These banks operate on a multiplier, i. e, the initial Loan amount is held as collateral for the basis of ten times as much placed out in loans).  Ultimately the money is shared by the Private Corporate World Banking Cartel.  You may be aware of the new protests in Egypt.  The IMF was to Loan the “New” Government of Egypt $3 Billion to recover from the riots and strife.  The condition was that Egypt would have to “Privatize” its Infrastructure.  You didn’t really think the Egyptian uprising was a grassroots thing did you?  And that goes for just about every “Uprising in the World” except for the Palestinians.  Anywhere you see conflict, with its death and destruction,  start searching for U S Hegemony at work in collusion with the World Financial Cabal.  Just look , you’ll find it.  And when you see it, feel betrayed , you’re paying for it.

This is what our nefarious Republican and Democrat Party serve us for Government.  It’s only going to get worse .  That is, until the American people wake up and realize it’s happening to them also.

I am amazed I haven’t seen much, actually almost nothing, about these two things:

1)  Fed audit uncovers eye-popping new details about the $16 trillion in secret loans given to U.S. and foreign banks.  Guess who will come into debt because of the above?

2)  General Electric moves their X-Ray Manufacture to China.  This was after paying no 2010 Corporate Taxes, receiving Subsidies in the Billions,  accepting Billions in Bailouts, and their CEO being chosen as the Man to run a Program to return jobs to America.

For those who have been questioning the World Financial Cabal I have been carrying on about I offer this excellent ( in my estimation one of the best you’ll ever read ) explaining how it functions, how it came to the United States, that it runs the United States Money Policy and Supply,  and that it is not a Government Agency, rather it is a Private For Profit Cabal.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2712

This is somewhat lengthy, so get a cup of coffee, and make sure you read every word.  You will thank me for it.

GRYM
It is a truism that when no longer able to prove their argument, most people turn to personal insult.  Is that why you said I was a moron?
   
Is there a Financial Group that contains the power to force the World’s Nations to accept their dictates in all things Financial and by extension all things political?

Can such a Group force the Nations of Earth to implement policies that continuously enhance the wealth and power of the Group? 

There seems to be evidence that just such a Group exists.  Their Goal is to maintain control of the Worlds currency.  How would such a plan cause the Group to have control of the Nations Policies and Politics?

The Group’s reasoning is that if they can control the World’s money, they will be able to control the Policies and Politics of the World’s Governments because money control’s all functions of any Nation and with this control they will be able to frame those policies and politics to favor the continuous enhancement of the wealth and power of the Cabal. 

Over time they will become the De facto World Government , or in practical terms, the World Oligarchy.   

A cabal is a group of people united in some project usually to promote their private views and interests in a Church, State or other community, often by intrigue. Cabals can be small secret societies composed of a few persons, or an organization with connections to movers and shakers , all with a common Goal to realize profit by hook or crook , a general meaning of intrigue and conspiracy.

The International Financial Cabal is composed of Banking Affiliations under the guidance of a small central group with the intent to control the World by controlling its money flow.  Does such a Cabal exists?  If so just what is that evidence?

To begin we need to adopt a truth that if proven,  would meet the criteria for saying “There is a World Financial Cabal with a Goal of dominating the Governments of Earth by controlling the currency.”

Truth:  The Cabal would have to be able to control the United States currency.  Does it?  And of course the other Nations currency.  Is this possible?  Is it a reality? 

Q.  Who or What, controls and sets the United States of America’s currency and monetary policies?  Answer: The Federal Reserve .

Is the Federal Reserve a United States Government function?  Well, not exactly.  It is a Private Business owned by International Financiers.

The United States Government does not own The Federal Reserve, It is independent of our Government and privately owned by an International Consortium and the Central Banks of the United States.  The U S Central Banks are majority owned by the same bunch that owns the Federal Reserve.  They are owned by the same Group that owns the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.  Finally it is owned by the same Consortium that owns the Bank of International Transfers, a Privately owned Foreign bank that handles nearly all currency transfers, letters of Credit, Loans, and Financial paper that flows between the Nations of our Earth.

This same scenario is repeated in all but a few countries of the world.  The owners of the Bank of International Transfers sets the policies for all the Central banks on Earth - which they control.
 
The Federal Reserve of America creates money by creating debt.  The Fed causes dollars to be printed and sold to the U S Treasury.  The Treasury pays the Federal Reserve a fee for each dollar printed.  The Treasury “borrows” the money and loans it out to the Central Banks.  This borrowed money is on the backs of the United States Taxpayers for repayment, it becomes part of the National debt.

@ Cliff Carson: Exactly

@ GRYM

LOL ... and what you fail to see I/we realize Stiglitz is a New World Order, Illuminati, Skull & Bones, corporate Jewish shill bent on World domination ... starting December 23, 2012.

Once this happens ALL property will be confiscated by them if you’re not part of their Ultra Rich club ... and it don’t matter who you are or how much influence you have. You will not be able to trade in their cashless society without their permission and you will probably starve to death if you don’t agree to work in their Slave Labor Camps.

Add the facts that we are crossing the galactic equinox, the “Destroyer” shows up, we have 10’s of 1,000’s of stellar ships watching, shills tried to build another corrupt tower of Babylon to expand their evil system, 1/2 the planet already starving and more to come ... all because of a nefarious group of greedy idiots, I think this will be interesting.

One thing is for sure, the people will not put up with such blatant theft and abuse as we clearly see in Wisconsin, Greece, Afghanistan, south America and just about every place on Earth. Our galactic neighbors will definitely not allow such greedy shills to expand into solar system and beyond.

13,000 yrs and same family of shills still haven’t learned they can’t screw with Universal and Natural Laws. They’re about to get another lesson in decency, morals, ethnics as the population of Earth will teach them and Galactic population will stop them from spreading into space.

Far fetched? Not at all, just look at all the ancient records, it’s all there. http://www.sacred-texts.com

It is blatantly clear you are one of their Corporate agents or too dumb to realize you’ve been duped as you ignore verified evidence.
What a Shame.

Condemnation without [full] investigation is the height of ignorance. ~ Albert Einstein

All it would take is 0.05% in taxes of super rich to save the so-called economy, all social services, roads and rest of infrastructure, health care for everyone, feed & house the poor, stop all wars and restore Earth to it’s former green glory. Instead they want to be assholes by forcing another bailout.

You might want to remember what happened to tower of Babylon and Sodom & Gomorrah. Is that what you want for you and your family?

Gabriel, - “I’m way beyond what you say and have been all along. I’m way beyond Stigltz and know much more.’ - ‘If you don’t then you’re way outclassed when you try to argue with me.”

-

Believe me, I fully grasp the gravity in your sentiments.  You posses a way unique intelligence that should be revered for way superior human qualities.  - You fit in well on this Web space.

I only wish you would grasp the notion that Stiglitz was Carson’s idea of “evidence” of your shared beliefs.  I encouraged a study of Stiglitz at some depth in order to make it clear that Joseph Stiglitz (Carson’s “evidence”) disagrees with the two of you.

-

“LOL .. if that comment was directed at me…..” - What comment would that be?

“GRYM failed to print what I posted out of the Stiglitz Interview (and he knows he didn’t because it would change his answer or make him look foolish).”

-

Mr. Carson,

I wrote that I agreed with Stiglitz as you posted.  There was no need to redouble your efforts.

In my years here on TruthDig I have only written the following two times before.  You’re a moron.

You’re also clearly dishonest and have no sense of honor.

Yes Gabriel

You are correct.  During the Bush Administration, the little wannabe Julius Caesar presented a plan to seine the Internet to identify people’s thought patterns.

The stated reason was to identify potential “problem” people and remove them from Society - actually disappear them at the extreme.  This is one of the insidious Directives that Obama promised during his campaign to remove - To be removed the day he took office.  Something tells me that didn’t get removed.  If it’s still there the group to seine the Internet would obviously be at work.  Maybe even on here.

GRYM failed to print what I posted out of the Stiglitz Interview (and he knows he didn’t because it would change his answer or make him look foolish).

Here is what he didn’t print:

“Finance ministers and central bank governors are linked to financial communities in their countries, so they push policies that reflect the viewpoints and interests of the financial community and barely hear the voices of those who are the first victims of dictated policies.”

As I have voiced before, these people place their own interests before yours and mine, and endeavor to suck the last drop of your blood before they move on to the next victim.

Note that the Financial Ministers are appointed by the corrupt politicians and and the Central Banks are Private Companies not answerable to any Nation on Earth.

Agenda driven people like GRYM tries to cover for the IMF criminal activities and I don’t understand why, because some day he and his ilk will get the opportunity to join the victim list.

Surely he should realize that.  Maybe he doesn’t have any children.  They would be more exposed than him if the Financial Cartel isn’t stopped.

@GRYM

LOL .. if that comment was directed at me then you listen up: I’m way beyond what you say and have been all along. I’m way beyond Stigltz and know much more.

So, you may want to look at IMF, WB and WTO actual documents as to what they say and how they operate. Then look at all of them as a whole to see their objectives and damages they cause. And then you might see the light and rethink your theories

Another words, do your own due diligence as a Citizen instead of taking the word of some putz on mass media TV and his related trash on web.

If you don’t then you’re way outclassed when you try to argue with me.
When you can come here and present proof you read those documents to us then we have something to talk about.
Clear enough for you yet?

Listen closely to what Stigltz said in that small blurb, Mr. Carson.  I believe everything he said there is accurate.

The IMF, by design, caters and responds to tens of thousands of people within and around finance ministries and central bank governors in several dozen nations. - It’s important to understand that matrix and what Stiglitz was saying.

Take close note of what he did not say.  He did not say that the IMF is controlled by an Oligarchical system.  Ministries, or more specifically finance and labor Ministers, are not static.  They change and revolve on a regular basis.  As do government policies.  Policies, according to Stiglitz, designed to maintain financial, diplomatic, and security stability.

I agree with Mr. Stiglitz.  The IMF should include labor ministries as well.  That is but one of many reforms that he advocates.  Reforms I largely agree with.

As you better understand Mr. Stiglitz’s insights into global finance you’ll come to appreciate that he believes you’re wrong in regards to an Oligarchy pulling the strings of roughly 200 nations.

-

I’m pleased to see that you’re studying Stiglitz.  My hope is that you’ll come to understand that you’ve been seeing things which are not actually there and ignoring things that are.

@Cliff Carson: oh I know exactly what’s going on .. just from what PPL type in here and looking at rest of their TD comments, including their links, related material, etc.
I’m retired and have all the time in the world and been where most don’t have access to and/or don’t even know such exists. Maybe that’s why I have 15+ layers of protection when going online, including roaming WIFI with 100+ km range, built on http://www.crop-circles.eu/images/crop-circles/5_5_chibolton_2000.jpg
All the NWO will get is one of their own if they try to trace me or nuke me. LOL
Similar to me have started Disclosure Project, Anonymous before online anons existed, many Lawful Rights organizations, etc.

GRYM doesn’t bother me a bit. Figured out his game within first 2 comments, actually 3.

The rest have been an education for the PPL that browse here. It’s all designed to give “We the People” Remedy ... a Lawful way to fight the Elites, Bankers, NWO, IMF, corrupt politicians, judges, cops, and rest of the half truth Illuminati shills.

I haven’t even touched on the real good juicy stuff ... yet

The idea is to bring in PPL to Truth Dig to get the other half of the news ... if TD has the balls to post it and the tools to protect itself from shills, while protecting it’s users. As with most online forums, TD has been infiltrated by few shills and are causing havoc for ones who want to learn what’s really going on. This is utterly unacceptable, immoral and unethical.

Probably 3 main things need to change here before PPL are safe/r to come here and speak freely:
“google-analytics.com/ga.js”
“edge.quantserve.com/quant.js”
http://www.chronicle.su/news/recaptcha-logs-identities-of-anonymous-4chan-users/

Thanks for the link, very interesting. As with all controllers they play both sides of the game, legal/illegal and lawful/unlawful. Keep in mind this is only a deception to keep people from seeing the rest of the truth, the real truth. This is what’s been released so far:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w
and ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMKtfDu9oyY ... I know, 51 parts, but it’s well worth it if taken as a whole.
There’s more but it can wait till appropriate article shows up on TD.

Also Thanks for your concern and comments. Be safe, We don’t want anyone ending up in industrial prison complex or like JFK.

I am somewhat disappointed in your statements Lafayette but on this thread we all should have freedom to express our opinion.

However when discussing any subject, there should be an exchange of data for review of the “other” side.

That exchange does not occur it seems from GRYM but I expected more from you.

Gabriel has joined the fray and has presented links to support his position much as I have, and yes I get my dander up when anyone comes back with nothing but attacking me, not my data, then I am like just about anybody else, I respond unfortunately with like kind comments.  I shouldn’t do that.

Lafayette, GRYM admits he has an Agenda but I am asking you, other than having an opinion about this subject, what is your basis for your opinion?  I think maybe last week that I communicated to you that I would like to discuss in adult communication the problem of “What’s happening to our country and where is the source of destruction emanating from?”  That is a serious request and I am not looking for a Link to Sesame Street as posted by GRYM.

Could we ( Gabriel and I, and the rest of this thread hear from you some reasonable discourse?

Gabriel, I can promise you that you are wasting your time trying to reason with GRYM, his Agenda is to muddy the waters. 

There are some others on here like him, but at least he admits what he is.  Anyway here is a link to a Q & A interview with Stiglitz with Progressive and an excerpt I pulled from it.

Link to an interview with Joseph Stiglitz by Progressive

http://www.progressive.org/0901/intv0600.html

An excerpt from the lengthy interview.

Q: The IMF has extraordinary powers to affect countries in times of crisis. Who does it represent? Who controls it?
Stiglitz: Finance ministers and central bank governors have the seats at the table, not labor unions or labor ministers. Finance ministers and central bank governors are linked to financial communities in their countries, so they push policies that reflect the viewpoints and interests of the financial community and barely hear the voices of those who are the first victims of dictated policies.

Gabriel, - “Well if you quit acting like you’re ‘in the 5th grade’ then you won’t be treated as such.”

-

I’ve done my due diligence.  I’ve tried to find evidence of this Oligarchy you so passionately write of.  This was the very best I could locate.

The Power Behind The Throne!

@ GRYM
Well if you quit acting like you’re “in the 5th grade” then you won’t be treated as such.

In any case, here’s the pinnacle of today’s financial problems. I’m sure you can spare 10 minutes out of your day to Watch very carefully the players involved. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alL6LsDYvAo

BTW: the public knows their names and whereabouts at all times, every last one of them and their associates to. Although I haven’t seen it, yet, there’s a database of them being passed around and updated continually. It’s just a matter of time til they are all caught in one big scoop, regardless of layers of protection they have bought.

Gabriel - “Your challenge: give us the names of investors of Federal Reserve. LMAO ... come on, I dare you.”

-

Such tactics won’t work with me.  I hold no compunction in writing that such methods hasn’t worked since I was in the 5th grade.

I honestly don’t know how else to put this.  I simply don’t see the same grand plan from a global Oligarchy that you see.

Carson,

You’re somewhat gullible, nay?

I’m wondering why various “news” reports describe Mr. Immelt as a republican while Immelt described himself as a long-time democrat during a taping of the Charley Rose Program. 

Will you next claim that GE’s flagship cable “news” network leans conservative?

-

Is there a reason you’re now avoided the subject of Joseph Stiglitz?  Or do you simply avoid acknowledging when you’re wrong?

PATHETICALLY NAIVE

CC: “Special Interests” and the failure of the WB,IMF, and BIS to properly perform their stated goal which was to help the needy Nations and their people.

And you fail to see clearly the actual investment expenditures of the above bodies in the poorest parts of this planet. All you see is the recriminations of some of these countries who were forced to employ austerity measures in order to correct the very problems that their inept/profligate governments created.

Do you think that the Foreign Direct Investment spending on economic development is provided by Goldman, Sachs to the darkest parts of Africa or even South America? They wouldn’t touch such markets with a ten foot pole.

Your accusations of a “conspiracy” involving the IMF, the WB, EBRD and other organizations of this kind are both groundless and pathetically naive.

TRUE METTLE

GRYM: You forgot to mention that the CEO of GE happens to be a long-time democrat, for many years an active Obama fundraiser/contributor dating back to Chicago, who, records show, has been to the White House nearly 200 times since Jan. 2009.

You pulling a rabbit out of a hat? So what?

Our system of governance that allows game rules requiring demonic amounts of money to get elected justify on both sides that BigMoney contribute to campaign funding.

That system of governance is faulty - from the recent idiotic Supreme Court ruling that opened the electoral funding floodgates, to the pervasive gerrymandering that ossifies into power our Two-Party System, to the revolving door of Federal workers who join lobbyists to further their careers, to the craven deeds of lobbyists that infest Capitol Hill seeking payback on the donations made.

The “system” (as described) is rotten to the core – but that does not mean it must be overturned. Just tweaked back to normal by a Congressional make-up that understands the notion that “normal” is what is best for the people as a whole and not just a comparatively select minority. (Since Detroit went bust, what is best for the people, not GM,  is what is best for America.)

We must get the immorality out of the National Psyche.  Our adulation of riches and the celebrity-rich should not indicate that the “ends justify the means”.

We must modulate our overweening need for capital accumulation that has produced the Income Disparity that afflicts our nation and incarcerates a part of it into lifelong poverty. (With the resulting violence of crime and delinquency.)

Wakey, wakey! The True Mettle of a nation is how it treats its poorest classes, not how well it furthers the interest of the rich. The latter know too well how to take care of themselves.

@ GRYM

ooooh , we’re back to IMF, WTO and World Bank = The same rip-off bankers that are the problem now as they have been all along.

Joseph Stiglitz is good. That’s if, a very big IF, the bankers/investors played legally, lawfully and ethically. They have their spats and arguments about how to rip-off the people ... but their goal is the same. This is an incremental takeover of everything on this planet.

All of them extend the same principals:
1. give loans to countries in trouble and demand their public services, lands and resources be privatized
2. charge extraordinary interest rates so country would be in debt for ever
3. put their own idiots into positions of power
4. install a police state that works specifically for them and not the people
5. force militarization and mass killings [if possible] of the people
6. extend disaster capitalism: see Naomi Klein

Exact same principals as Rothschild clan and rest of rip-offs throughout history. You may think this is good til you find out it’s your home and your property [everything you own] that’s in their sights as well. And they won’t be happy til they get it ALL. Remember this whenever looking at things they say and do.

Any system would be good [Ayn Rand, communism, capitalism, Marxism, freedom, democracy, socialism, etc.] as long as it’s fair and equal to all. But as long as the elite few rip-offs try to take over there will be war.

I repeat: as long as a bank charges interest [usury] it’s an unlawful enterprise. Usury was punishable by death even by the fully corrupt Vatican.
USA is screwed as long as Federal Reserve [a private for profit corporation charging interest on money printed] has control over American money. Get rid of it and 99% of the problems will go away.

Now you may know why USA is the most hated country on the planet.

Your challenge: give us the names of investors of Federal Reserve. LMAO ... come on, I dare you.

I also notice you managed to skip over rest of my presented facts. Nice trick ... trying to save face?

In any case, all this is a deception as to their real agenda.

GRYM

A link to the news report about Jeffery Immelt sending the GE X-Ray business to China

http://caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/27/ge-moving-x-ray-business-to-china-what-message-is-sent-to-u-s/

A link to a Biographical sketch of Immelt

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-21/obama-taps-ge-s-immelt-for-economy-panel-replace-volcker.html

An excerpt from the above link

Immelt, a self-described Republican, has emerged as one of Obama’s most visible outside economic advisers. In addition to the summit in India, he was among the executives who met with Obama and Chinese President Hu Jintao this week and later attended the state dinner honoring the Asian leader.

Seems like you are wrong again.  Sorry about you getting confused.  Stuff happens.

Carson,

Do I represent the Republican party? Are you serious with this?  I can’t even conceive of how you concocted a narrative that places me as representing the Republican party.  You’ve floored me with the question. - You are horrible at listening. I’m willing to wager I’m not the first to point to this habit of yours.

-

FYI: You forgot to mention that the CEO of GE happens to be a long-time democrat, for many years an active Obama fundraiser/contributor dating back to Chicago, who, records show, has been to the White House nearly 200 times since Jan. 2009.

It’s not clear in your last post that the chairman of the President’s Council on Jobs and Competitiveness—the CEO of a billion-dollar multinational corporation (GE)—paid no corporate taxes in 2010.

General Electric, as you know, is led by Obama appointee/fundraiser, Jeffrey R. Immelt.  The very same GE which reported worldwide profits of $14.2 billion last year—with $5.1 billion coming from U.S. operations—but had no American tax bill, and claimed a tax benefit of $3.2 billion.

- Try this narrative on and see how it fits: GE, whose CEO is a “prolific” contributor to the current President of the United States, received over $3 billion in “stimulus” money and is now moving major operations to China.

Question:  With all that information how did concoct yet another narrative that places a “Republican” at the center of your grievances with GE?

Be honest.  You’ve not truly been “listening” have you?

-

Let us not forget Joseph Stiglitz.

GRYM

Something more important right now:

While you were upholding your precious Republican Party and all it stands for, you may have seen that GE, a very Large Corporate Republican Party supporter, that was Bailed out with Billions taken from the American Taxpayer, that paid no tax in 2010, on income of over $14 Billion, that also received subsidies amounting into the millions to help put American people back to work, announced today that they are moving their X-Ray business to China.

They will spend $2 billion setting up their facility and staffing.  The man Obama selected as his jobs Czar, a Republican, is heading up the move to China, and I believe it was he who made the announcement.

Do you still want to say Go Right?  Do you feel betrayed? 
Do you still represent the Republican Party?

What do you have to say about this?

I am really interested in your answer.

Carson,

BTW:  I didn’t Google Stiglitz.  I was the one between us who has actually read three of his books.

Mr, Carson,

I’m sorry.  I couldn’t get through all of your last post.  Your pettiness and attempts at condescension are simply unbearable.  You also have a horrible habit of not actually listening to others.

1. Did you miss my writing that I agree with much of what Joseph Stiglitz writes and opines?  It seems you missed that completely.

2. Did you save for last an explanation on how you were completely wrong in regards to Stiglitz ever suggesting a belief in a global Oligarchy?

-

An honorable adult will make saying they were wrong a simple affair.

GRYM

Thank you for googling- but you dwell on his positive statements in the book - or a review of it, and possibly missed what he alluded to as “Special Interests” and the failure of the WB,IMF, and BIS to properly perform their stated goal which was to help the needy Nations and their people.

My position is that he interjected the big word   IF which means things could be different - not that they are.  Somehow you must have missed the “buying of Politicians to serve Special Interest”.

He did say that Globalization could be a good thing - but he has that caveat - if done right.  When I read how the things done wrong were affecting the needy Nations and their people, if you read the buying of politicians of these countries, as is evident here in America, and if you think about it you might recall that our Banking System is not owned by the people, rather it is in essence Financially controlled by private investors the majority of which are Foreigners.  If you have been paying attention you might recall that this same bunch tried to get a “World Tax"imposed last year.
 
Finally if you read enough you noticed that he was fired because he pointed out publicly that it seemed every Country that this Cabal lent money to wound up Bankrupt, with their Infrastructure in ownership to the Cabal, and often ended with blood in the streets.

This year Bernanke gave Congress a report of the Federal Reserve.  It was the first one ever.  It is not mandatory that he give one and since the U S Fed is part of the World Group,  it can simply ignore our Government should it desire.  It is set up in every country in the World to operate independently of that country’s Government.
 
To amplify what I mean by Independent of the Nation, I pulled the following from a U N report from the U N Secretary General to, I think Robert Zoellick, who by the way was a high potentate for Goldman Sachs at the time: 

Engagement with the World Bank
71. Close collaboration between the United Nations and the World Bank is critical
to an effective multilateral response and can provide a platform to support the
engagement of other international actors. Recognizing the need for a strong strategic
partnership, the President of the World Bank and I signed a Partnership Framework
Agreement in October 2008, to strengthen cooperation between our organizations in
crisis and post-crisis contexts and thereby contribute to a more effective and
sustainable international response. Building on this Agreement, the United Nations
and the World Bank Group will establish a specific mechanism for regular
headquarters-level consultations on crisis and post-crisis countries of common
concern. The goal of this consultation mechanism will be to improve the strategic
coordination and the collective impact of United Nations and World Bank efforts.
72. The World Bank has a strong technical capacity in several of the recurring
priority areas, which provides an important complement to the United Nations
strengths. In specific post-conflict situations, the senior United Nations leadership
should call upon World Bank country directors and managers for early
engagement and rapid technical advice, as appropriate, in priority areas where the
Bank has a clear comparative advantage.

ROADKILL ON THE HIGHWAY OF LIFE

CC: To me the alternative is to assume that this gathering, group, whatever, works for the good of the common people of the world - to which I say, fat chance.

You seem to forget that taxation is a national not international manner. If the Russians want to set a flat-tax of some ridiculously low level on their oligarchs that is Russia’s business, not the G7. It is taxation that, first and foremost, decides who gets what share of the economic pie.

There is far too much diversity in the political makeup of the individual countries for their leaders to be involved directly or indirectly in any complicity and certainly no “conspiracy” on the international level - regardless of the venue.

The leaders of most European nations are not tied hand and foot to national plutocrats to get elected. Not in the Social Democracies I know in the various EU nations - and not within the EU (given the nature of its Parliament in Strasbourg).

The thought of a conspiracy is simply ridiculous.

SO WHAT IS IT?

You (plural) are confusing Vested Interest in a business sense with conspiracy, this latter being a secret plan devised and agreed by a select group of people to maintain a world financial order of their liking. There is no secret plan.

Vested Interests (otoh) can indeed be at play. If that is the case in the US, then it is clearly our problem - not directly that of the world.

MY POINT

Political parties in the US are gaming the “system”. That system is one in which gerrymandering tends to ossify both political parties into continuous power. BigMoney can be called upon strategically to affect elections that will produce desired results; if they work (voters are not machines but thinking adults).  Problem is, they succeed far too often with a disabused and politically naive electorate.

WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

Wake up, for one thing. Let’s understand what is really important. Namely, Income Disparity (or Unfairness). That can be changed easily by politicians elected on a platform to reform serious taxation in the US.

But for as long as Americans allow themselves to be influenced by the mindless political or politico-religious dogma of the Right, then there is no reform whatsoever possible in this country.

We have met the enemy and he is us.

POST SCRIPTUM

What is most unacceptable of Conspiracy Theory is that we, the sheeple, are the “victims” and therefore lamentably there is nothing we can do about it. Which is untrue.

We are the victims for as long as we do not understand the political gaming of the system and do not work to have it reformed.

It is particularly surprising that, when terrorists strike us with a 911, we all pull together in both grief for the victims and a determination for revenge.

But the thousands who die slow deaths because they are incarcerated in poverty - nobody sees that, nobody cares, nobody does anything. It’s as if a Darwinian resignation had overcome us by which only the fittest truly deserve to live either decently or very well indeed.

All the rest - and they are countless - are just road-kill on the Highway of Life.

Gabriel,

I’m sorry but, I just don’t see the same world you see.

-

Please do look up Joseph Stiglitz.  Contrary to Mr. Carson’s claims Stiglitz argues the exact opposite of any notion of a global, unified, Oligarchy.

Stiglitz makes a strong case, much of it I agree with, for a more refined system of information gathering and collating amongst the disjointed and fractured World Bank, IMF and WTO.  He describes heavy divisions within these powerful groups.  Anything but unity.  The only unity he describes is in the systemic failures of the current monetary system.

If you find the time read “Globalization and Its Discontents” and “Making globalization work”.  In both of these books the author recommends a more concerted and focused effort amongst world governments and the monetary system. - You’ll be left wondering how the hell Carson could have so bent and twisted Joseph Stiglitz out of all real context.

-

Clearly Mr. Carson has listened to someone who listened to someone who was told about a man named Stiglitz.  It’s simply not possible that Carson actually knows anything of the real man.  Stiglitz would not be referenced as a believer of a global Oligarchy.

@ GRYM & Cliff Carson

It’s easy to overlook the fact that all Monarchy are working at the same game of global control when they manage from different areas and seem to be for different short term goals. In the scheme of long term they are playing for same ... full global control.

Note: every piece of info created in last 2,500 yrs has at least one lie or fib in it. It doesn’t mean it negates the whole thing. It means it’s in there as a mistake or deliberate deception. Simple cross-referencing of research with older records shows what’s true.

Some well documented examples that can be found in most major libraries world wide in Monarchy’s own words:

- Churchill, Hitler and Vatican all talked and conspired together in public and in private.

- Rothschild funded both sides of wars, not just one. They still do today.

- Murdoch main investor is Saudi Prince and they carried on full conversations every few days. See http://www.democracynow.org for more confirmations.

- Vatican city, inner London [UK], Washington DC and Forbidden City of China are their own separate Sovereign States that continually speak with each other, that’s 24/7, and have their own private most secure communication channels.
As much as David Icke rubs me the wrong way in some areas this UK part is mostly true, first 30 minutes: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1289338414420676723

- G8 & G20 leaders have been clearly exposed by Wikileaks. see their Website for emails and other communications. Much more to be released. Same people have attended Bilderberg and other occult meetings as did G8 & G20 meetings. This in it’s self shows the nefarious nature of ones involved.

- right from Gods, to Titans and Kings & Queens genealogy lines and their stories tell of same monarchy bloodlines ruling the planet. Their disputes might show up as war but if you look closely it’s done to keep population at a certain level and to keep the people from rising up against them. With the advent of Internet much of the deception has been and still is being exposed.

Anyone who’s studied occult [hidden] societies and groups knows they all work together, both that seem to be good and bad. They all answer to same masters. For these go see all major investors of all corporations and interests.

If they were truly at war with each other they wouldn’t be holding public meetings to together, would they?

Only one that’s separate from them is the Peace Movement that originates as Buddhism ... this includes true followers of Gandhi, pre cast system of Hinduism of India and one they call Jesus as he studied in Nepal for many years.

And NO, I’m not religious. I’m a historian. It also means I don’t care about your particular bent GRYM. I only care about the truth, whatever it may be.

Basically most of what’s going on today for media presentation is a deception to hide real upcoming events and their affects.

Mr. Carson,

I do indeed have an agenda.  In fact I have several when it comes to this Web space.

I will try to continually remind myself of your superior intellect and highly-tuned emotions which place you apart from mortal humans.

My apologies.

From GRYM

“You hit the nail on the head.  I’m obviously ignorant.”

From Cliff Carson

You won’t get any dissent from me.

But yours GRYM is self imposed.  You and I both know why you can’t see the forest for the trees.  You don’t want to.

“If we would only testify to the truth as we see it, it would turn out that there are hundreds, thousands, even millions of other people just as we are, who see the truth as we do… and are only waiting, again as we are, for someone to proclaim it.”  I forget who wrote this.

Then there is

“None are so blind as those who have an Agenda”

And if I recall correctly GRYM you have admitted that you have an Agenda and I believe that you inferred that your Agenda supersedes the Truth.

Is that not right?

Now if you want to see the light, I am not going to do your research for you.

But I will give you a hint:  Google Stiglitz and report here on this thread what he, a former head of the World Bank and IMF, has to say about its Goal.

I also ask the others on this thread to look up what Stiglitz has to say.  We need to keep GRYM honest if at all possible.

Then you will know how blind a self imposed agenda commenter can make himself- and at the same time give a robust meaning to his statement that I copied and repeated at the front of this comment.

In other words that you can understand GRYM if you are not going to be honest with your part of this discourse, and won’t ever see anything past your Agenda, we can get along quite well without you.

Gabriel, - “If you still don’t see the proof then I must say it’s obvious you are ignorant…”

-

You hit the nail on the head.  I’m obviously ignorant. 

As much as I try I can’t seem to see the concerted efforts of a global Oligarchy lurking in the shadows pulling the strings of over six billion people in roughly 200 nations. 

-I see the G20 leaders agreeing to disagree over plans to cut public deficits and regulate the global financial industry. 

-I see daily disagreements in the ferocious competition in and amongst the G8, in and amongst NATO, and in and amongst the U.N. Security Council.

-The SCO sees itself as a counterbalance to NATO.  The European Union sees itself as a counterbalance to NAFTA.  China sees itself as a counter to the U.S..

-Iran and Syria see themselves at odds with Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE and Jordan.  Pakistan sees itself at odds with India.  Russia sees itself in direct competition with the United States.  Apple sees itself in competition with Microsoft.  I see nothing of a concerted effort as China’s trillion dollar textile industry gears up for WTO challenges.  I see at least 30 civil wars playing out around the globe at the time of this writing.

You proved your point.  I am indeed ignorant.  I see everything but a cohesive, concerted, global banned of like-minded human-beings with a grand plan.

-

You could help to dismantle my veil of ignorance if you would be so kind as to name the members of this tight group of people you see pulling the strings of the masses.

Very interesting conversation Lafayette and Gabriel.

Lafayette you might recall that you and I have communicated previously on the subject of an International Financial Cabal.  I, and it would seem, Gabriel, believe such a very tight knit organization exists and you do not believe it does.  Would that be fair?

If you start with what Joseph Stiglitz writes about the World Bank, the IMF, and its Goal (World Domination), and you do look at the Basel Accords, ( I think here you and Gabriel both might be thinking of Basel III as opposed to Basel II or Basle2,The British manner of Identification), and continue on thru the UN involvement with the World Bank Group, and finally throw in the Rothschild factor, it seems to me a clear case of High Power setting up a World Financial System that favors the “Money Changers”.

To me the alternative is to assume that this gathering, group, whatever, works for the good of the common people of the world - to which I say, fat chance.

Recall that Basel III came about because of the worldwide failure of the Basel II Rules and Regulations to properly address Derivatives.  This little risky gambling is what brought down the World economy you may recall.

While I have not sat in on a G20 summit I have visited a Library in my lifetime and I derive my beliefs from what I read.

You and Gabriel both seem to me to be well versed on the subject as I think I am, so I’m wondering if we could come to a general agreement about whether there is a “One World Order” in play and present our thoughts, conclusions, and evidence on the subject.

Let me start by stating that I believe that all evidence points to a World Financial Cabal and unless I misread your position, it is directly the opposite. Gabriel I think you are more in agreement with me.

JUST SO MUCH MORE FORUM CHAFF

Gabriel: While you’re at it have a good look at youtube of all the G8 & G20 meetings just for fun, as well as rest of groups I mentioned .. for a start. If that doesn’t wake you up then then think about who they vacation with.

Have you ever been to one of these meetings, Do you know what goes on, Have you ever heard of Basle2 (likely not). Then you would know that Basle2, discussed at both G7 and G20 meetings, is about reigning in HighFinance globally.

You are chasing phantoms if you are looking for oligarchs in these meetings. For the most part they are constituted of government bureaucrats and the talk is amazingly erudite and as boring as warm piss.

You want to find a real “oligarchs”? Go to Russia. Closer to home, look at the main benefactors of the Republican Party who want to maintain the status quo on taxation.

But don’t pester about the Great Global Conspiracy of Oligarchs - you’ve been watching too many Hollywood movies.

If that doesn’t wake you up then then think about who they vacation with.

They are all on their yachts quayside in St. Tropez in August. Wanna do sumthin aboudit? Then’s the time, they’re all in one place.

@ GRYM

re: “Do you have any evidence, any evidence of any kind, of a global concerted Oligarchy at play?  I’ve never seen it.”

You must not watch any news at all or just ignore it as you do with rest of what’s being presented here. Or maybe you think this is a big joke and you’re just stringing me on. So, pick ANY news media website and start looking at meetings they’ve had right in front of your face.

While you’re at it have a good look at youtube of all the G8 & G20 meetings just for fun, as well as rest of groups I mentioned .. for a start. If that doesn’t wake you up then then think about who they vacation with ... Because it’s certainly not you or the common man. They wouldn’t bother getting their hands dirty, nor take the chance of inbreeding with likes of “common trash” or “smurfs”.

Maybe you missed Murdoch stories all over net & news and whom they are involved with, maybe Royal wedding and whom was attending there? How about Vatican visitors day in and day out? Maybe you should pick up any vanity rag and have a good look.

Here, I’ll eve help you, in case you forgot how to use a basic search: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=g20+leaders+summit&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=3843l3891l0l8400l3l1l0l0l0l0l132l132l0.1l1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&biw=1019&bih=836&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=vid&source=og&sa=N&tab=wv

If you still don’t see the proof then I must say it’s obvious you are ignorant, ignorant of the facts that is. Or maybe you have selective eyesight?

BTW: I asked neighborhood kids to do a search and they had no problems finding such blatant evidence. Most actually laughed at me and looked at me funny for asking. When afterward I told them what’s up they ALL laughed.

It’s pretty bad when a 7 yr old tells me “Oh you must be an old fart that can’t use a Google search. Here, I’ll show you.” ... “See, they all vacation together.” After I told her it’s someone on TD, all she said was “Stupid PPL” and laughed.

If you and other detractors are still so mentally challenged try driving a cab in a larger city for 6 months and talk to your customers. They will smarten you up really quick.

Thanks for the laughs

THE CRAZIES RULE

CC: As Corporate money began to skim the production edge produced by workers and those workers began to realize less resources for an hours work, the excess margin was flowing every stronger to the rich and powerful.

This is, indeed, the nub of the problem. To put in terms economists use: The Return-on-Capital expenditure (ROC) is greater than the Return-on-Labor input RoL).

Nothing has changed since Marx first noted this imbalance though not in the same words. He drew his observations from the Agricultural Age where those who owned land (the capitalists) hired labor, sold their farm output and pocketed the profits, with which they lived a grand lifestyle.

He saw as well, during the initial decades of the Industrial Age, the very same phenomenon repeating itself.  One hundred and fifty years later and I ask, “What has changed?” What we have today in no different.

I am no Marxist, but I do accept fact when evoked or demonstrated clearly. (The distribution of Income is aberrant in the US and this analysis demonstrates the disparity here.) The RoC in America is indeed much larger than the RoL.

We cannot lower the price of man-hours worked. So, what must we do to equilibrate more fairly the lopsided comparative returns?

Europe came up with a measure that can work. But it has not been uniformly implemented, which should be done.

Some countries in Europe have a legal requirement that white- and blue-collar workers are allowed to vote at least two members to the Board. This does not change the Board’s power-structure. But it does give Labor a better eye’s view of what is happening in the company - and particularly on the Compensation Committee and the manner in which it distributes financial and other perquisites.

It is also possible, though far more difficult, to require companies to share profits not equally but equitably with those below the TopManagement rank.

Why should profit-sharing be a preserve of just TopManagement. Because it always has been that way. Why is it that those who own start-ups rake in fortunes. Because the capital gains are marginal income are taxed so lightly.

If we raise taxes, will we stop dead innovation in its tracks? Will there be no more Bill Gates or Steve Jobs? No, innovation continues in the German pharmaceutical industry or the French aerospace industry - both countries have High-Tax regimes. (NB: In fact, the URL that you employed to read this blog was invented in Europe by a Brit. Yes, the original backbone for the Internet was called ArpaNet - which was owned by the DoD.)

What stops or slows down considerably is the ignominy of Income Disparity in our country. The True Mettle of a nation is not how many millionaires it can produce, but how it treats its poorest classes.

The only reason that tax schedules changed downwards to benefit the New Plutocrat class is because we, the sheeple, allowed Ronnie and his Congress at the time to do so.

MY POINT: Wake-up, Americans

That to can change, if we can elect a Congress that will raise taxes. So, let’s put taxation on the agenda for the next election.

And if Americans continue to believe sleepily the Replicant Crazies that propose “More Tax Breaks Is What America Needs” ... then there is nothing the rest of us can do.

The Crazies Rule by means of the public will, however stupid that will may seem. Which is the first-rule that Karl Rove ever learned about politics.

POST SCRIPTUM

There is nothing we can do short of wide-spread armed revolution - which nobody in their right mind should be proposing seriously. The consequence to the very fragile distribution system of the US would cause far more suffering than any rebellion could cure.

There is a debt crisis and the common man can do almost nothing about it.  About the only thing that can be done to keep this nation from becoming a full blown Plutocracy is radically change the balance of wealth.

As Corporate money began to skim the production edge produced by workers and those workers began to realize less resources for an hours work, the excess margin was flowing every stronger to the rich and powerful. 

This was because Money and Influence bought the Laws.  The common man has suffered a loss of Independence incrementally until suddenly it has hit the common people erasing everything they have gained over the 235 years of this Nation.

Today 23 million people are out of work and therefore pay no taxes.  40 million people are at an income level low enough that they qualify to draw food vouchers.  Wars and the Defense Department and related Pensions and Veteran Medical care spends more money than anything else in the budget.  Corporate Tax Rates are the highest in the world, but the actual tax paid by Corporations are among the lowest in the World.

The flow of wealth distribution to the one percent has been shouted by the Conservatives as necessary to promote job growth and it does in China, India, Indochina, and everywhere but the United States.

Constitutional Rights have been steadily eroded and laws favoring Corporations have been enacted such that the common man seems to only have the right to serve their masters - the Rich and Powerful.

The Rich and Powerful can hire people to monitor the Internet and smother any opposition to the Plutocracy emerging daily.

Almost all Media is protective of the Criminals now running this Country.  When was the last time an elected Politician spent time in Jail for Fraud or Corruption?

Spin is the Gospel of the Rich and Powerful and the freedom of the Internet is threatened constantly by those who would rob and rape this country of what made it Great.

And there are people on this thread who will praise the thieves and their criminal activities because they have ignored what has happened and those that did notice were divided by dispute over what caused the current situation. For those people the cause was corruption of our Government.

Yes there are just two remedies to effect change

1.  Get rid of the Republican and Democrat Party

2.  Hit the streets

Gabriel, - “You telling us they don’t talk to each other?

-

Is it possible that we not take what each other writes and turn the context into all things absurd? 

Of course there are hundreds of thousands of groups which make up global diplomatic and economic relations all over the planet.  By and large most are in direct competition with one another.  With that said; there still has to be agreements between markets and governments.  It’s been this way for thousands of years.  It’s not a conspiracy.

Do you have any evidence, any evidence of any kind, of a global concerted Oligarchy at play?  I’ve never seen it.

“Social Justice:  Which nation would you rather see as the sole “super power” on earth?  Your answer may tell us something of your “social” agenda.”

The human race needs superpowers like it needs a hole in the head. If you go back through history you can plainly see that many of the worst atrocities in history were carried out by superpowers, so I would say ‘no one’. I believe in equality, consensus and social justice not superpowers so your question, while burningly important to you, is irrelevant and meaningless to me.

As to the real cause of America’s debt crisis, everyone knows that it’s the wars and the huge and constant tax cuts for the rich that got America in this mess.

1. American War of Independence - national debt $75 million which was paid down and in 1835 America had no debt.

2. Civil War 1861-1865 - $1 billion national debt for the first time in US history.

3. World War II - $200 billion national debt.

4. Ronald Reagan’s presidency was marked by several wars of choice and huge and repeated tax cuts for the rich. When he left office national debt was $4 trillion.

5. 199-Bill Clinton signed a balanced budget for the first time in a generation. The debt clock was turned off and covered up because the problem of national debt was considered solved - and it would have been if Al Gore had been allowed to take office because the Clinton/Volker plan would have created surpluses for the next 25 years. Gore wasn’t, however, allowed to take office. Bush not only put the budget back in deficit but during his time in office the deficit doubled. Why? Because of wars of choice and huge and repeated tax cuts for the rich.

So, it’s not exactly a secret why America is in hock up to its armpits to the Chinese and the Japanese. When the Bush administration had squandered the surplus Clinton left they hocked the farm to get more money for their wars and tax cuts for the rich.
You may call this criminal irresponsibility righteous and praiseworthy but I don’t, and all the Republicans are doing is fighting Obama’s re-election campaign for him. They make policy with their balls and the consequences of that are all too predictable.

@ GRYM

“No group or gathering of human-beings is that cohesive and concerted.” Really?

Then what do you call the G8, G20, East India Company, Committee of 300, Bilderberg Group, Rothschild clan, Skull & Bones, most USA presidents belonging to same family: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1if6tJO2GA ... etc. etc.?

You telling us they don’t talk to each other? You listen to their conversations to make sure? How about all that email and documented proof of their dealings?

Their house servants tell of much more than you you’ll ever know.

... Get a grip man.

Gabriel,

I’m sorry but I’m simply not buying into you WAR perpetrated by the ubber rich on the whole planet.  I think you have far too much idle time and no concept of nearly 200 nations under six billion people.

I think in order to be productive in regards to Western obesity and food quality, which I agree is real, we need to move beyond this odd notion that the world’s billionaires are working in concert as an Oligarchy. No group or gathering of human-beings is that cohesive and concerted.

Please don’t come to me with that narrative and try to explain how you’re the one with a handle on how the world turns.

-

If you live in the United States you’ll work for under an hour for a chicken that will feed a family of six for an entire day in Iran.  It’s utterly myopic of you, some would say “uber wealthy of you” to make the issue about fast food french fries.

“As a percentage of GDP U.S. tax burden is about 24%, third lowest of OECD nations.”

-

Precisely why every nation on earth invests in the United States, bar none! Which, in turn, makes the United States the largest economic engine on the planet.  This, in turn, allows the United States to feed more living, breathing, human-beings than any nation in all of human history. 

Let us not confuse self-loathing with actually feeding human-beings.  Let us not lose sight of what’s most important to the majority of over six billion people. 

-

In this time, in this space, the subject of the article is revenue and a reported U.S. debt problem (in reality a global debt problem).  Not schemes of “social justice”.  The latter is being discussed, ad nauseum, after the latest Chris Hedges article on another thread.

Focus, young man.

@ Go Right Young Man:
You call 70+ Million homeless in USA “how lucky a human-being is to be born in the United States.”?
Are you on utterly mad?

Most in US are fat due to lack of real funds to buy better food than junk-food, GMO foods, drug laced foods and garbage additives ... all due to corporate advertizing and pressures. Businesses and corporations [super rich] have been buying up and stealing arable farm land since 1800’s til we get to point where not many farmers, nor usable land, are left. Same goes for all areas: destruction of forests, water, air and rest of resources. Not just USA but everywhere. Or did you miss the news the last 20 yrs?

It’s a WAR perpetrated by the ubber rich on the whole planet. And now they want another bailout by cutting services which Americans paid for with their hard work and hard earned cash? NOT FRIKIN’ LIKELY!

This bailout goes through and you’ll see mass burnings of major businesses, killings of every super rich ahole found, banks and Federal Reserve leveled to the ground. There’s no hole deep enough they can hide in .. Not even their DUMBS & Personal Deep Underground Bunkers. Eventually it will make WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Haiti, Honduras, Iraq, Venezuela and rest of wars this 100+ yrs look like a happy camping trip.

The only thing that’s been stopping the super rich from completing their world domination is average people with guns. Now that private contractors outnumber police by 100 to 1 the super rich think they can get away with it.

If Go Right Young Man is so concerned with economic justice, he should consider the distribution of wealth, and not focus on one aspect of tax policy. Factoring in pay roll tax deductions, the U.S. tax policy is one of the most progressive, but not excessively so as compared to other OECD nations. OECD nations have Value Added Taxes to help finance government. As a percentage of GDP U.S. tax burden is about 24%, third lowest of OECD nations.

If economic justice is the issue, Go Right Young Man should pay more attention to the disparity in wealth distribution, and not focus with all his might on income taxes.

Go Right Young Man is a right-wing ideologue who fears and dislikes progressives, which clouds his thinking, and turns him into the worst sort of right-wing ideologue, a war monger, with a fascist mentality, he claims the authority of economic justice while ignoring gross economic injustice. I’ve grown tired of insulting him, but he truly is a cretin.

ENel, - “GRYM: Maybe that’s because the least wealthy don’t have any money.”

-

I wholeheartedly agree that those with no real wealth should pay no income-tax.  The U.S. is wealthy enough to afford that and a great deal more.

At the same time I never forgot how lucky a human-being is to be born in the United States.  A place where the very poorest amongst you suffer from obesity while hundreds of millions literally starve to death.  Yes, even the poorest in your country -literally- suffer obesity as a health issue. - Some say in epidemic numbers.

-

What is authentic wealth and, what is this very Western concept of self-loathing?  I’ve found that this need to turn success into an evil is almost exclusive to Westerners. 

In Iran, or amongst the majority in China for example, people are constantly amazed that you can go to any grocery store within ten miles of your home and purchase a chicken you labored less than one hour to obtain.  Most people in Iran and China cannot even conceive of what you likely have available to you and yours.  Point in fact, if you live in the United States, no matter your income level, you’re likely “Oprah Winfrey” wealthy relative to about Three Billion human-beings on the planet.  We have no way of knowing how greedy, selfish, and criminal you are.  We don’t know how you derived your personal, and quite obvious, ill-gotten gains.

To many non-Westerners this is called context.

GRYM, ALEC, norquest and grove, sounds like one of those sleazy law firms to me.

Oops….this should have read: So I remind you and others that the wealthiest 10% pay 70% of all revenue to the treasury in income taxes.  The lower 50% pay 0% income tax.  - One the of most “progressive” tax structure on the planet.

Is Tax policy in the U.S. progressive? Some seem to believe it is excessively so. On the surface the 10% paying 70% seems grossly unfair, but further examination reveals that the 10% hold 80% of the wealth, and due to tax policy, the distribution of wealth has been more and more moving in an upward trajectory. To put it simply, the rich have been getting richer, with an ever increasing portion of total wealth.

The United States ranks 4th worst in wealth distribution in the OECD nations, and does poorly when ranked with all the world’s nations (See United Nations GINI coefficients.)

diamond,

Your idea of “social justice” is absolutely frightening.

-

The topic you’re avoiding today is U.S. debt and its causes.  More specifically the Cause of America’s Debt Crisis.

On that subject, the subject not being your sense of “social justice”, taxes always becomes an issue.  I believe it’s important to keep people such as yourself in firm check.  So I remind you and others that the wealthiest 10% pay all revenue to the treasury in income taxes.  The lower 50% pay 0% income tax.  - One the of most “progressive” tax structure on the planet.

-

Social Justice:  Which nation would you rather see as the sole “super power” on earth?  Your answer may tell us something of your “social” agenda.

“The wealthiest 10% of Americans pay 70% of all services provided by the government.  The least wealthy pay 0%.”

As usual GRYM you have the wrong end of the stick. The problem here is not the poor but the rich. If you look at countries that have social justice, decent health care, decent wages and working conditions you can see that none of these things were created by the rich.

The rich have opposed every moment of human progress: they didn’t want the three year old boys who cleaned chimneys taken out of the chimneys, they didn’t want the children taken out of the mines, they didn’t want them taken out of the factories, they didn’t want to end the slave trade, by and large they opposed giving the vote to everyone as opposed to making it a privilege for them and their rich friends. To link the idea of social services to the rich is ridiculous: things like social security and universal health care have always been created in the face of outrage and obstruction from the rich. The way these things are created is by having elected officials who resist the rich and don’t become their foot soldiers and clearly no nation can move forward or avoid complete dysfunction unless the rich pay their fair share of tax.

The Republicans are not defending America, they are defending the right of the rich to have $80 billion of tax cuts (which were handed to them by that great statesman George W. Bush and that great economic genius, Dick Cheney) continued and if they had their way extended, while the country goes to hell in a handcart. Anyone who voted for any Tea Party candidate has to take their share of the blame because they put these lunatics there in the first place. The only thing greater than the Tea Party’s complete economic ignorance is their certainty that God is on their side and they’re always right.

I have paid taxes my whole adult life, I do not know what percentage I have paid compared to someone who writes off their jet, or their third or second home in a tropical Paradise,  but I am positive someone like Go Right Young man can enlighten me, with some more of his opinion sans facts!

‘Trolls our us”, seems a well paying job, compared to the unintuitive, actually any job may be a well paying job if the Republicans continue on their merry uncompassionate way!

Robespierre115 is right on.  So when will Americans
wake up to the fact that ‘smash’ time has come. 

Take usury laws, in existence pretty consistently
since the time of ancient Babylonia.  They no longer
exist in this country. And one of the results that is
responsible in a big part for this financial mess? 
Money/capital has been moving at break-neck speed
into financial entities - remember the GM executive’s
remark that GM only makes cars so it can make loans
(on them.) Are we surprised that manufacturing in
this country has moved to foreign trading partners?

And the reaction (of the guy who’s being charged
upwards of 35% on his credit card debt?)  Nary a peep
of complaint.

Fifth time was a charm.  If TD doesn’t want to acknowledge my post regarding the July NFIB poll of small businesses, then I give up trying to post it.  It was not the complete poll, only excerpts and less than 3000 characters long.  Go figure.

This thread only likes non-controversial material.  I can’t get it to accept my post about NFIB polls.

This thread is eating posts.

“Over the past century, America’s rich made their millions and billions through the use of public assets shared by everyone. By virtue of those profits, they have not only a moral, but a rational obligation to pay more for the upkeep of public services.”

-

The wealthiest 10% of Americans pay 70% of all services provided by the government.  The least wealthy pay 0%.

We need jobs to get us out of this mess. Put tariffs on or increase the tariffs on countries that have little or no eviromental policy and abuse their worker. Fair trade not Free trade.

Decreasing the deficit - which is public/national debt will not create jobs because unemployment was not caused by the deficit - the financial crisis of course increased the deficit - that is the order of things.
There was a financial crisis because our economy became primarily an economy of money and services a Wall Street casino- not a manufacturing economy. The economy BTW is recovering - The stock market is not plummeting. It is, however, a jobless recovery.
The corporations that can capitalize (get loans from banks, and/or issue stocks and bonds) are out-sourcing. Taxing those big multi-national corps will not hurt them - especially since they have so many tax shelters and loop holes.
Not taxing them, on the other hand, will NOT create jobs.
The small local businesses, however are a different matter. But that isn’t the level of taxation that has grown the deficit. They don’t belong to the one percent that hold most of our nation’s wealth.

So the deficit debate is inconsequential to the unemployment debate - though the Repugs want it to be.
Middle income salaries have either not grown or decreased in the last few decades compared to those of CEO’s. It is the style of mega-corporate financial practice that has to change - before the nation becomes a working success for ALL Americans - not just one percent.

DaveZx3, July 26 at 1:38 am Link to this comment

If there is the desire for more and better jobs, increasing taxes on anyone is not the way to go about getting them.

Despite the numbers proving otherwise , despite the recent history showing plainly that this “voodoo economics” is simply falacious.

additional labor is not required.

Not required here at home you mean, do you not Dave? Or do you profess to be unaware of the hiring these corporations are doing offshore? Or the vast sums building up abroad and not returning home to avoid paying taxes on them?

The preferred way to increase tax revenue is for government to loosen up on business while spurring the economy with some QE, thus creating an expectation of increased sales which spurs hiring.  The increased payrolls of the business due to increased hiring is the source of the increased tax revenues.

All I can do is borrow a phrase from my grandchildren…OMG. This is exactly what HAS BEEN DONE ( sorry for shouting) and exactly what has gotten us into the current mess we are in today. The monies we pour into our businesses goes, in large part, into bonuses and other such revenue neutral places. The lack of regulations leads to more selfish business practices, the further migration of money to fewer and fewer and the worsening of the condition of the great majority of workers and their families.

Pleae, Dave, stop channeling Reagan.

P.S. Kudos to Lafayette for a rather fine rebuttal.

HUMAN DIGNITY

Dave: If there is the desire for more and better jobs, increasing taxes on anyone is not the way to go about getting them.

Both wrong and dead wrong. The target is not “just anyone”.

Since the last Great Depression, economists and political leaders (should) have learned that the best way to get out of the Economic Mess is to spend one’s way out of it.

If we raise taxes ONLY upon those earning, say, above $250K per annum, we do not affect their Discretionary Income noticeably. (DI is what make people consume.) The tax increase will affect only that amount (called savings) that they put aside into Asset Management. This money is then placed in T-notes, MoneyMarkets, Bonds, etc. Which do very, very little for boosting the economy and even less for creating jobs.

Besides, the above cited notion seems to indicate that the consequences of an Immoral Tax System should be paid for by even further sacrifice of those that it has hurt the most. This is immoral and undignified of a nation as developed as ours. (And let’s not even talk about how “church-going” a nation we are ...)

MY POINT: Human Dignity

Human Dignity should be our Battle Flag. It is what our forefathers had in mind when they spoke of the “pursuit of happiness”. Happiness is ephemeral. But well-being is an integral part of the way we live daily.

And each citizen deserves basic human dignity - i.e., the self-respect that is provided by a minimum of well-being. Well-being comes from permanent jobs with decent salaries. It comes from being sick and reassured that a Public Option will be available to assume the burden of the cost. It derives from the fact that society will assure that all who want to obtain the competence-credentials necessary for a decent job will have been provided the educational means to obtain them.

One might be led to think that some Americans needs a lesson in Human Dignity. Start here .

Okay, same link shortened;

http://tinyurl.com/3vgdmsk

Here’s a clear and concise summary;
http://agonist.org/numerian/20110725/why_some_people_ar
e_just_fine_with_the_collapse_of_the_debt_ceiling_negot
iations#comment-237786

Sorry for the longURL, but it’s worth a read…

THE NEXT STEP

SP: In other words, if the federal government started taxing the wealthy and their corporations at the same rates in effect a half-century ago, the federal debt to investors would almost totally vanish over the next decade.

This is the sort of information I have been looking for and unable to find on the Internet. Well done, SP.

I have posted many a time the findings of this analysis here done by competent economists that shows the distribution of National Wealth. The pie charts demonstrate clearly how very warped is Income Unfairness in today’s America.

To a point as to be immoral and undignified as a nation. It’s a rip-off of the Have-nots by the Haves.

The next step in the analysis, pertinent in the present debate about the National Debt, is what would happen if taxes were placed back where they were before Reckless Ronnie made it into the Oval Office. (See marginal tax history info-graph here.)  The above cited exercise is for putting taxes back up to pre-Reagan days. That is, presumably at the 70% level.

But, what if, as a matter of national emergency, we both closed loopholes and put them back up to 90%, which is more like a wartime standing. Is that not the predicament in which we find ourselves.

I figure the increase in Taxation Revenues would be more than just 20%, because the present official figure of (only) about 38% is factually far less – at about 23% when all deductions are made. So, the plutocrats have been able to keep 77% of all their income earnings and 72% of their capital gains earnings.

Therefore, tax loopholes would need to be closed, which the Replicants have refused to accept as proposed by Obama. (Yes, folks, he’s trying hard.)

So, why not bump up Capital Gains earnings as well – say from their present level of 39.6% for short-term and 20% for long-term to 70% and 50%.

So, what would be the Tax Revenue Take then and how long would it require America to seriously retire a large portion of its National Debt by buying back T-Notes?

PDQ, I suggest. Moreover, there would be enough to perform National Debt Reduction and employment creating Stimulus Spending.

JFK

Of course, one can hear the wailing already from both middle-class and upper-class voters, who have grown accustomed to the lower rates. 

‘Tis a pity. But we are at a moment in history when we should remember JFK’s Inaugural Address statement: “Ask not what your country can do for you. But ask what you can do for your country.”

POST SCRIPTUM

The benefit that no one talks about, it seems, but which is nonetheless real and tangible is this: Once the incentive to take reckless risks to make a buck in both Corporate and Financial America is neutered, there will be less of a chance that the very same greed that has put us into the present Deep Doodoo should be repeated.

If there is the desire for more and better jobs, increasing taxes on anyone is not the way to go about getting them. 

Business’s hire workers when they have the expectation of increased sales, and they hire to be able to handle those increased sales.  In a recessionary period, there is usually no prospect for increased sales, and so additional labor is not required.

The preferred way to increase tax revenue is for government to loosen up on business while spurring the economy with some QE, thus creating an expectation of increased sales which spurs hiring.  The increased payrolls of the business due to increased hiring is the source of the increased tax revenues.

The advantage of this over a direct assault on corporate coffers is three fold:

1.  Provides business confidence in the economy
2.  Produces jobs for the general public
3.  Produces consumer confidence and spending, which tends to feed the cycle and produce growth.

Increasing tax revenue by increasing tax rates on those who expect dividends from their shares of corporate stocks, causes the reverse to happen. 

1.  Business loses confidence in the ability to generate increased sales and profit.
2.  Layoffs or decreased hiring reduces consumer confidence and spending.
3.  The cycle spirals downward in a recessionary trend, inhibiting growth. 

Rightly or wrongly, it is governments approach to taxing and regulating business which increases or decreases confidence and the prospect for increasing sales and thus the need for increased hiring and increased consumer confidence.

The public needs to decide whether they desire to retain a capitalistic approach to creating jobs or a increase the socialist approach to creating jobs.

This deadlock we have between ideologies is what is stagnating the economy.  You gotta go one way or the other.  It helps no one to debate ideologies while families are going hungry and not able to pay mortgages. 

You grow an economy or you kill an economy.  Right now we are killing ours with this division of ideologies. 

It might be easier to proceed if the left had a better vision of what their approach would be to creating jobs.  I really do not see that as being evident in the current debate. 

At least the Republicans have the vision of reducing taxes and decreasing deficits to create confidence and growth of the economy and jobs. 

The Democrats are only hung up on diverting welfare to the needy.  Hardly a vision which increases confidence in anything.  As far as hard core communism, there is no vision being held up as evidence for that approach.  Or even their socialist little brother.  Where is the vision of the left?  What is it?  It seems it is only centered around anti-republicanism and anti-capitalism.

i think michael hudson has it just right: http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/22/pushing_crisis_gop_cries_wolf_on

I was sooo exited that I would finally see the real truth about debt crisis on TD and I was greatly disappointed when I only see 0.01%, at best.  :(

Where is fact that super rich used to pay 95% in personal income taxes?
How about Corporations were only temporary entities with option for renewal once a year in front of public board?
Maybe fact that 80% of Trillions is siphoned off into off-shore accounts?
And, Banks pay off bigger banks til Central Banks pay off Federal Reserve, a private business and bank, that sends it all to Rothschild banks of Europe?
What about multinationals moving just about everything out of USA to 3rd world countries?

What about accounting tricks, money laundering, debt discharges, besides legal also illegal business control and profits, usury/interest/service charges, keeping dual or triple books, deals made to lessen fines via IRS, ponzi scams, pyramid schemes, foreclosures, failures to repair damages, cutting corners on products, sex trade, child abductions and trade in them, profiteering off prison system and cheap labor by prisoners ... and the list goes on.

It is the biggest rip-off scam ever devised on this planet.

USA is one of the richest countries on this planet if most would ever wake up. For remedy of this scam you need to learn the basics all over again.

See Winston Shrout videos and courses, find and learn Freeman on the Land materials, Marc Stevens, Lawful Rebellion, and likes of them for getting your rights and livelihoods back. http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/robin_hood_in_reverse_20110712/#414225 
Get together and help your neighbors. They are all in the same boat as you. The filthy mega rich use them for their benefit and against you, so why not you for your benefit and your neighbors too?

Educated public is dangerous ... only to the ruling class. Remember this well.

Every 70 yrs a national debt is to be forgiven. What happened?

After you learn there’s always the option of disbanding the Federal Reserve and their fiat money system. Only way to get back to creating and using real money ... by your own government and not some private banksters.

You want change? Well this is the only Lawful way of doing it. The other option is burn down everything the banksters have created, EVERYTHING. Put them on a boat or to some obscure island and start your country from scratch.

You can restore USA to it’s greatness by We the People, local clean industry, permaculture, land reclamation, cleaning up pollution, so-called free energy ideas, training and hiring your own Peace Officers, kicking out or restricting shills, finding and educating each other on best ideas ... and mainly working together.

Your choice.

Warning: If you don’t do something constructive as a population, and quickly, all of you will be homeless within 3 to 5 yrs. That’s how bad you’re being screwed and you don’t even know it.

“Once upon a time, some people—even some of the rich—understood that the answer to that question is yes.”

When was this? Societies have had to smash the parasitic oligarchs for centuries: Germany 1525, France 1789, Europe 1848, France 1871, Russia 1917, Cuba 1959, Venezuela 1998 etc. etc. etc.

corporations that use trucks do pay more in taxes. a trucking company has to pay to be apportioned in each state that truck runs in. they also have to pay extra for each mile run in that state. trucks pay more for plates and registration as well as higher tolls for roads and bridges. using the same logic as the article corporations should pay less because they don’t use the local and national parks for recreation.
another point is corporations don’t pay tax. the people who buy their products and use their services do. instead of raising taxes on companies and pushing more jobs off shore why don’t we raise tariff’s on the countries that destroy our enviroment and treat their workers like slaves.

When it necessitates BEing a millionaire to even be elected to either the House or Senate, there can be only two kinds of officials in either place:

1.  Altruistic millionaires who are willing to pass taxes on fellow millionaires when needed for the nation’s good

2.  Business-as-usual millionaires who try to garner as much money as possible while they hold office for themselves, their cronies, and contributors. 

Guess which set has the larger count?

Now let’s get this straight: if the rich (already with a lower tax rate than traditionally) paid double the taxes they are currently paying (yes and some pay no taxes whatever) they would still be left with TWICE as much left over comparatively speaking as 50 years ago. The Tea Party fights ANY raise in taxes pretending it is defending the ordinary citizen, not just the Koch brothers. Desperate for some little trickle of taxes from somewhere Obama offers cuts in social security and medicare. Pundits call the whole thing a hoax designed to go after entitlements, and point to a bloated Pentagon. The people say reduce the wars and tax the rich. The internet flogs “dysfunctional” and “crisis” and “unthinkable” while Moody’s issues tut tuts. I feel a Twainism coming on: “April 1: This is the day we are reminded of what we are on the other three hundred and sixty four.”

If you count the Nuremberg Principles, the U.S. has been in default since March of 2003.

Duh! When you are rich enough to own the corporations, the financial industry, and the politicians in a democracy, and hire the lobbyists and lawyers you need to write the legislation you want passed, it’s very easy to loot the nation. And turn a democracy into a plutocracy.