Cliff Carson, April 3 at 1:48 pm,

The mob is becoming aware and slowly awakening to the fascism that has taken over the government of our country, and when the mob is fully aware and awake, the same thing that happened to Mussolini and his wife in Italy, will happen in the USA, because when the mass mob of the 70% majority population moves together, there is no power formed that can stand against them moving in unison to clean up our country, because it was the populace that hung Mussolini and his wife and no telling who else, but there are pictures of them hanging and just like in the US, they thought they had the world by the tail with a downhill pull, but it was all subjective, when the objectivity of the people moved against their corruption objectively.

Cliff Carson, April 3 at 1:48 pm,

The mob is becoming aware and slowly awakening to the fascism that has taken over the government of our country, and when the mob is fully aware and awake, the same thing that happened to Mussolini and his wife in Italy, will happen in the USA, because when the mass mob of the 70% majority population moves together, there is no power formed that can stand against them moving in unison to clean up our country, because it was the populace that hung Mussolini and his wife and no telling who else, but there are pictures of them hanging and just like in the US, they thought they had the world by the tail with a downhil pull, but it was all subjective, when the objectivity of the people moved against their corruption.

MarthaA

I have to agree with you. The cause is that the Corporatist have adopted Profit as their God and consigned Morality as an afterthought.

My rant was that the American People have placed Party first with the result that they will scratch around and find any excuse or manufacture one to overlook the criminal behavior of their own Party instead of seeking punishment for the offenders.  That is how we got where we are at, we as a people will not punish our leaders for their malfeasance.

Unpunished crime breeds more and more severe crime.  The Political Party is the medium of influencing people.  Loyalty to the party is the sickness that has infected the voters.

Witness that the Constitution is supposed to be the Law of the Land.  When our leaders are elected they take an oath to defend the Constitution and then once in office they no longer uphold that oath. As George Bush once said “The Constitution is nothing but a God Dxxed piece of paper” and then he proceeded to violate any part of the Constitution he so desired.  And his Party members defended him.

The International Corporations showered him with money and privilege.  They have done the same to every Politician and Political Party forever.  And they do expect and get recompense for their favors.

Every politician running for office rails against the “Corrupt Government” and once elected, they join the Corrupt.  They have nothing to lose.  There is no punishment for the criminal Politician so therefore life for the common man will continue to deteriorate.

Only when enough citizens decide that it will be stopped by punishing the criminal element will a change ever occur.  Proper punishment does deter crime.  The penalty must be too costly for the would be criminal to see any profit in committing the crime.

Cliff Carson, April 3 at 4:11 am,

“I do think this story is a reflection of the Morality of America.  Not
just the Military or the Government.”  — Cliff Carson, April 3 at
4:11 am

Only the military leaders and the neoconservative fascist
(corporate) government of the United States is responsible for all
the warmongering that has taken place since Nixon.  The majority
American common populace have been propagandized from cradle
to grave and have become an enslaved debt work force trying to
keep afloat, too tired and without any time to think about what is
really in their own best interest, much less what the neo-con
fascist (corporate) government of the United States is destroying
in other countries or even in America, for that matter.  Americans
are told from cradle to grave that they can’t talk about politics,
unions, or religion and if they do they will be kicked out of school
or be fired from their employment for any of the three, so after a
brainwashing like that, the average common American doesn’t
have any idea how cruel America has become or even time to think
about it, because they are all victims and I find it difficult to blame
the victims.  The ones to blame are the mega corporate bankers,
mega corporations like GE, mega corporate insurance,
corporations in the military industrial complex, and
conservative/moderate Congresspeople on the take in one way or
the other.

Excerpt from the Wikipedia account of the Doran Testimony of Witnesses to the Massacre

“Another driver states that he was asked to drive his truck, carrying a container with about 300 men, into the desert; he says those who had not died of asphyxiation were shot, in the presence of 30 or 40 U.S. soldiers watching.[3] The driver put the number of containers he saw in the desert at 25 to 30.[3] Several of the interviewed people claim that U.S. personnel were aware of what was happening to the prisoners after their arrival at Sheberghan, and that some played an active role in the torture and murder of prisoners.[3][11][12]”  Do any of you ever follow and read those references in Wikipedia?

I haven’t seen anybody print this that I have copied and pasted here.

I do think this story is a reflection of the Morality of America.  Not just the Military or the Government.  This same scenario has been repeated around the world so many times that the American people have become bored by all the talk of blood and gore.  But these massacres continue simply because the American people are not moral enough to stand up and say stop it - or else.

Notice when My Lai took place there was a very strong effort by our Government to effect a cover-up. Some of the soldiers at My Lai were actually scalping the murdered civilians.  Maybe we should all read up on the atrocities that has been committed by the United States over the years.  That might awaken our pride about being the moral beacon for all the world.  Currently our country is acting just as badly as those we attack for acting badly.

Why am I attacking the United States for their depravity when other countries do the same?

Because we should be better people than those we scorn.  We have allowed our government to become blood profiteers.  What was it Libya did to us?
Now don’t start talking about how bad Gaddifi is to his own people.  Every time we invade for Humanitarian reasons we seem to wind up brutalizing the population.  Why do we do that?

More importantly why do we accept that behavior?

RE: Exactly.  Before we judge what we don’t yet understand.

agreed - I’m leveling no ‘judgement’ - and some may feel it
disingenuous of Producer-Director of “Afghan Massacre: The Convoy of Death”,
Jamie Doran, when he says, ...all I’ve ever asked for is an open
investigation.

nevertheless, the analysis of as seasoned an Afghan hand, as Doran, is worth
considering: e.g. again from the interview:

[...]

BUZZFLASH: There is potentially several levels of concern in regards to
American forces. Some would argue that even if the U.S. soldiers weren’t
involved, they were in control of the situation. One implication could be that
even if they didn’t know about it, they should have known about it. Although
some of your witness claim that U.S. soldiers were present when the 3,000
Taliban were buried in a mass grave at Dasht Leile and stood idly by as though
Taliban that were killed being transported in the containers were summarily
executed.

And the point I’m making is that when you have fifty-plus American Special
Forces in effective command and control of Sheberghan Prison, there is no way
they are taking orders from Afghans. They are in charge. And don’t forget one
of my witnesses specifically says that an American officer ordered the removal
of the bodies - the living and the dead - out to the desert.

[...]

fearnotruth, Let’s put all our cards on the table.

-

Exactly.  Before we judge what we don’t yet understand.

MarthaA,
*Go Right Young Man, April 2 at 8:21 pm,

The United States should not be in Afghanistan in the 1st place.*

exactly,
*As chief American prosecutor, Robert Jackson clearly stated, a war of aggression “is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole*
http://tinyurl.com/4n5h3h
http://tinyurl.com/3cz5dub

for all i care, the yanks might not be complicit [sic] in the *convoy of death* atrocity
but amerikka has committed serial supremem international crimes
kosovo, iraq, afghan, libya n counting
u want *proof* for that too, mr investigator ?

RE: ...Suddenly these stories manifest into inquires and opinions of Western morality.  Not
the real issue of contemporary Afghan tribal wars.

exception taken - not everyone questioning the ‘official story’ of this event is
charging it with “...opinions of Western morality.”

... Before this narrative becomes “Fact”, however, we must demand more than a handful of
claims.  We must be able to substantiate enough of the claim to at least label something
probable or likely.  Which is still a far cry from factual or proven…

indeed just as Jamie Doran, Producer-Director of “Afghan Massacre: The Convoy of
Death” clearly states in the Buzzflash interview: ...all I’ve ever asked for is an open
investigation. Lets put all the cards on the table here. Lets be utterly open.

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/09/23_doran.html

[…]

BUZZFLASH: ...Tell me more about your interview with Perle - what you did not put on the film.
And secondly, why hasn’t the Pentagon… authorized an inquiry?

DORAN: I don’t know if it will be the Hague. I’m certainly hoping that it will be under American
military law. I won’t go into too much detail - far more evidence will come forward on this story
and I would be amazed if, coincidentally, it didn’t actually come out at the time of the
Guantanamo trials. And thus, if America is trying Taliban prisoners for war crimes - many of
whom, incidentally, were taken from Sheberghan Prison for the great crime of speaking English
- then I think its going to be fascinating when further evidence comes out during the
Guantanamo trials of war crimes committed by their own men.

[…]

GRYM

I read the same articles as you, including the statement by Newsweek.

That statement is Newsweek’s 2002 statement less than a year before it really became widely known, while the U S Government was claiming it never happened, and doing everything they could to stop any investigation, but you being an investigator, I’m sure you caught that really quick, however even after reading that statement by Newsweek, if you read the rest of the article, I don’t think a rational person could read the entire nine page article and come away with an opinion that the U S Special Forces were not involved, even if this is the only article you read.

If you read the other articles as you claim, you know they were involved.  The problem here is that you just won’t admit it.

But there is a certainty here - you belong in the crowd who claims “My country right or wrong”.  That cry is very familiar from the My Lai incident and thousands of other cover-ups going on during our “War against Terror”.  We have killed millions since WWII and the great majority died for nothing other than they lived in a place with a resource desired by people who really run this country.  And people like you support that.  I notice that 70% of Evangelists responding to a poll said they supported Torture.  I must say that I disagree with your thinking.

Go Right Young Man, April 2 at 8:21 pm,

The United States should not be in Afghanistan in the 1st place.

Cliff Carson,

We see again below how there are those who believe that if they post yet another link, leading to yet another “news” item (I call it regurgitating), regardless if that news item actually disputes the original claim, they believe they have proven their case.  To these individual it’s the end of the debate.  Many never take the time to inquire past the Headline.

One incurious individual posted a link to a 2002 Newsweek item which states “Nothing that NEWSWEEK learned suggests that American forces had advance knowledge of the killings, witnessed the prisoners being stuffed into the unventilated trucks or were in a position to prevent that. They were in the area of the prison at the time the containers were delivered, although probably not when they were opened.”

There seems little doubt that the event we’re writing of here took place in some form.  It’s equally likely that these events were horrendous.  It’s also likely that this was one of numerous atrocities perpetrated by each of the waring factions of Afghanistan.  But place American or Western troops in the vicinity and the entire context changes.  Suddenly these stories manifest into inquires and opinions of Western morality.  Not the real issue of contemporary Afghan tribal wars.

-

As I wrote before: It may be that a group of U.S. Special Forces were present during a few of these events known as The Convoy of Death.  It also may be that some Special Forces had involved themselves.  Before this narrative becomes “Fact”, however, we must demand more than a handful of claims.  We must be able to substantiate enough of the claim to at least label something probable or likely.  Which is still a far cry from factual or proven.

What we cannot do is allow our predispositions to cloud an issue of such gravity.

even Ace Ventura has the occasional ‘bad hair day’ - but is he brave enough to put “all humility
aside” to report how good he/she is at what he/she does?  I’m curious, what could it be that GRYM does…
something along this line?

e.g. from the interview
http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/09/23_doran.html

[...]
DORAN: ...one journalist who’s rather well-published in the NYT, The Washington Post, The Wall
Street Journal - she was following this story down and couldn’t understand why none of the
nationals would touch it. You know, a few regional newspapers took it, but the nationals wouldn’t
take her article, which was obviously a very big story. Why wouldn’t they touch it?

Well, one journalist told me that she talked to a high ranking State Department
spokesperson and asked him why this was being covered up. “You have to understand
we’re in touch with the nationals on a daily basis,” he told her. “This story just won’t run,
even if it’s true.”...
[...]

jibes with this: “The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major
media.” - William Colby - Director of the CIA (1973-76)

and with this: “Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the state.” - James Jesus
Angelton - Director of CIA Counter Intelligence (1954-74)

GRYM,

Obviously your Ace Ventura, pet investigator skills escape you.

http://www.buzzflash.com/interviews/03/09/23_doran.html

Dasht-i-Leili

http://www.newsweek.com/2002/08/25/the-death-convoy-of-afghanistan.html

Re: The link posted in my comment below.  I didn’t try it until the comment was posted.  Now that I try it, I find it is no longer viable.  My apologies.

I then Googled “The Future We get is the past we Ignored Cliff Carson” This article didn’t come up on the first page, But a couple of former ones did:

Will Empire Building Cost us our Freedom
and
We must return to our Constitution

Try those for a sense of my meaning when I call for punishment of those who commit atrocities.

grym

amerikka is the world’s worst *hr* abuser

here’s the proof
the highway of death
http://tinyurl.com/y3vz2o8
cold blooded destruction of a nation’s infrastructure
http://tinyurl.com/y9lkstf
killing a nation
http://tinyurl.com/3bg49b6
*wasting a city*
http://tinyurl.com/3h5w94m

guilty as charged
what else that u dont understand ?

GRYM

I don’t question your sincerity or your anguish but I do ask you to read this excerpt from one of the many articles and commentaries that I have had published.  Is is just a small piece from the article but it is a view where I am coming from and what I fear if we let these atrocities remain unpunished, and by unpunished, let me just say I mean Presidents on down.  If you will Google My Lai and read enough articles, you will find no less than Colin POwell sought to quash an investigation of My Lai.  Were it not for two soldiers ( who didn’t even participate ) this story may have remained as it was first published by Army outlets ” After a rigorous day long battle 11th Battalion killed 128 Vietcong Communists and 22 civilians were inadvertently casualties in the battle”. The following is from my article written 4 or 5 years ago. 

THE FUTURE WE GET IS THE PAST WE IGNORED

Cliff Carson

“It became necessary to destroy the village in order to save it”

I recalled this statement while I was reading a very powerful look at the My Lai massacre that took place during the Vietnam War.  The depravity of humanity gone mad is revealed in this account and one would think that we would never again commit such atrocities.  But the powers that be convinced us that we should put it behind us and move on.  And now it seems we have repeated the depravity again in Iraq.  Is it true that our future is shaped by what and how we react to events and realities of the present?  Have we gone even deeper into depravity since My Lai?  And if that is true, what did we not do that would have kept us from drifting into an open acceptance of torture and unjustified bloodletting today?  If the future we get IS up to us, what failures of our past determine what we leave for our children today?  Please take a read.

http://rwor.org/a/027/vietnam-destroy-village.htm.

Would we be in war in Iraq today if we had charged President Lyndon Johnson and his War Mongers for their Vietnam War Crimes and successfully prosecuted them?  Would prosecuting the Bush bunch for their War Crimes stop a Vietnam or Iraq of the future?  How many victims would be alive today if we would have had the courage to do the right thing?  We need to put a stop to war criminals.  The one sure way to effect that stop is to make liable those who become War Criminals and those who promote the business of war for profit.  When we learn from our past and act on that knowledge, the future we get will no longer be the past we ignored, we will re-set our future, for the better.  And surely our children and their children will benefit from our actions.

grym

u want *proof* of us complicity in the afghan *convoy of death*
i provided evidence for much worse us crimes against humanities

u have been trying to defend the indisfensible
amerikka is the world’s worst *hr* abuser, period
who is the childish one ?

denk,

Let me see if I understand you correctly.

You childishly begin a dialog with me by being insulting then, when I fail to respond, you appear agitated that I didn’t lend you the time of day?

Am I understanding this correctly?

Cliff Carson,

Of course I wrote nothing of American soldiers being “white as the driven snow”.  Why the need for exaggeration to make a point?  It’s simply not necessary.

It does seem you somewhat exaggerated U.S. involvement in the Afghan incident, exaggerated the number of witnesses of U.S. involvement in the incident, and, from an historical perspective, wildly exaggerated the gravity of the incident.  These is the reason I asked the questions I did.

I believe I am willing to see what’s there with open and unemotional eyes.  Is it possible, considering your exaggerations, that you’re seeing things that are not there?

Bottom line: Atrocities do happen during times of battle.  The U.S. is certainly no exception to this rule of human nature.  At the same time, however, we need to prove U.S. Special Forces involvement in the Afghan incident before we condemn the whole of the U.S. and it’s military.  I believe, if you revisit the available evidence, you’ll find that this has not yet been accomplished. 

This has been my only point all along.  We should take greater care in making claims which hold such gravity in their effects.

-

With all humility aside, I am actually quite good at what it is I do.  I can only ask that you trust when I write that if I were to present the the types of conclusions you draw here, while presenting the available demonstrative evidence, I would not be held in high regard amongst my peers.

One thing is for sure GRYM

If your statistical statement that 99.999% of the Special Forces are clean as the driven snow are true, then all the rest of the atrocities attributed to those fine young gentlemen (and ladies)over their history must be false also.  So for every 100,000 complaints, only 1 is actually real.

I am left wondering which one it could be.

Or is it possible that maybe, just maybe, you just don’t want to admit the obvious?  What are the odds on that?

Go Right Young Man,
*Don’t misunderstand me.  I believe the incident happened.  I also believe it’s an horrendous crime.*

u keep challenging claim about us complicity in this crime
yet u choose to ignore the evidence i posted on crimes amounting to genocides perpetrated by merikka,
n u always tried to deflect the discussion by bringing up china, nk, etc [what about .....?]
as if what these countries had allegedly done somehow justify u *wasting* another country n its people
go away young man, dont pollute the forum
ur natural habitat should be like huffpo or may be wapo

Cliff Carson,

I’m not claiming to be and investigator.  I am an investigator.  I have several hundred investigations and many thousands of hours behind me.

I honestly believe, based on the scientific and demonstrative evidence that can be evaluated at this time, the Northern Alliance likely committed a series of gruesome atrocities surrounding the Convoy of Death incident(s).  The evidence that U.S. Forces participated is questionable.

I’m not making excuses for the Northern Alliance when I write that these types of incident were not unheard of for decades in Afghanistan by each of five major tribal factions.  You may find yourself appalled by hearing of this particular incident all while being unaware that this is still currently the way in Afghanistan. - To an even greater extent in Pakistan -  Keeping this bit of context, that this was merely one of many, is essential.  That U.S. Special Forces may very well have been present during this particular incident, in and of itself, is quite unremarkable.

And while there are claims that U.S. Special Forces participated, we also know that countless claims are made for a multitude of political and tactical reasons.  It’s so common, in fact, that I simply believe that, before we condemn the entire U.S., adding this incident to the list of evils the U.S. has perpetrated about the globe, we must demand more than a handful claims.  And through all the material that can be evaluated, you yourself will continue finding, at the core of the investigations to date, a small handful of claims that U.S. military personnel were actually involved. - Never the hundreds you write of.

-

It’s a bit of an unrealistic, altruistic, concept to believe 8-15 lightly armed Special Forces would simply inject themselves into these War-Lord tribal tactics, practiced on all sides for several decades, and believe that they could, or even should, attempt to interfere.

Everything I know of the young men in U.S. Special Forces tells me that 99.999% of them would be as horrified and appalled as we are by this incident.  I hope we can agree that it would be wrong to lose sight of that.

From GRYM

“Let me ask one final question.  If there were American Special Forces witness to, for example, Northern Alliance fighters shooting holes into cartage containers full of Taliban, what, exactly, would you wish them to do at that moment?”

To GRYM
At the moment they should have told them to stop because it is a violation of International Law, the Geneva Convention, and UN mandates, and in the sight of moral men, murder.

Afterward, whether they stopped shooting or not , as a minimum, I would expect them to admit that it happened.
 
So far all we had seen from our Government was denial, that it even happened.  But pressed with all the evidence, finally after several years our Government finally admitted that it did occur, but they say the Special Forces were unaware it was happening.  Our Government knows the Special Forces were there with General Dostum.

You may have missed Dostum himself stating that the Special Forces were there.  There were several hundred survivors of the Convoy.  I count each of those survivors as a witness to the fact it happened.

And surely you have read that many of the witnesses described to Amnesty International, the Red Cross,  etc. what happened - the shootings and the deaths, plus some of those witnesses stating that they saw Special Forces ( 30 to 40 )in one case, watching the shooting of survivors, and some witnesses saying that some Special Forces were actually doing some of the shooting, all this was there for you to read.  You may also have read that most of those witness have now been killed and those organizations have confirmed this.  I don’t think there will be many more Afghans who will talk, they have been silenced.
I have taken you to the evidence that the U S was involved in the massacre.  It was all there for you to read.  But you say you didn’t see it.

Now I place a task for you.
Present your evidence that the United States Special Forces were unaware that the massacre was taking place and therefore didn’t participate in it.

I will read every word of every link you present.

Cliff Carson,

I forgot to mention that there does appear to be “a host of witnesses” in the Afghan incident (no where near hundreds) that have disagreed on the details and all who may have been involved.

Is there anything you can offer in support of the hundreds you wrote of?  If you do I’ll look at it.

Cliff Carson,

Don’t misunderstand me.  I believe the incident happened.  I also believe it’s an horrendous crime. 

Your original statement, that U.S. Special Forces was involved, has many problems.  Not the least of which is that there appears to be no indication of hundreds of witnesses of U.S. involvement.

You do appear to want to play up this incident by marking it the worst atrocity since WWII. - In your last post you ignored the tens of millions killed by the Khmer Rouge so you can point back to the United States.  Why?

Is it possible there has been some extravagant exaggeration on your part in order to meet an agenda?

-

If there was Americans involved in the Afghanistan incident I wish them prosecuted.  I can’t see condemning the whole of the United States for, what appears to be, one of several dozen horrible incident within the context of five major Afghan factions throughout two decades of similar, and worse, atrocities on all sides.

Let me ask one final question.  If there were American Special Forces witness to, for example, Northern Alliance fighters shooting holes into cartage containers full of Taliban, what, exactly, would you wish them to do at that moment?

The question may appear cold-hearted on the surface, however, it’s a legitimate, real-word, question.  Would you expect the U.S. to involve itself more deeply in a policing role between five waring Afghan factions?

The CIA has always been where ‘revolutions’ begin, where coups take place, where ‘things happen’ for they most likely are the tools making things happen.

Consider ALL the times the Empire has usurped power, either by phony ballet vote, coercion or the historical way… by force.

Why argue about the details?

Why allow the shills and those paid to obfuscate the joy of doing their job?

Why not let us plan on how to stand firm?

GRYM in answer to your comment

“I’m not sure if you intended to avoid answering my questions, nonetheless, you effectively did.”

No, I am not avoiding an answer.

When you read about the manner in which they were killed you may not agree that this was the most gruesome and you might be right since that was just my opinion, and after being reminded of some of the mass killings by the U S Forces and the horrible manner in which hundreds of thousands were kill (such as the deaths) of 500,000 Iraqi Children before the war, I have to agree-worse things than the Convoy of Death have been perpetuated by the U S and its allies. 

You asked about “Hundreds of Witnesses” and “involvement of U S Special Forces”

You claimed to be an investigator and claimed to be aware of the incident for some time.  If you have read about this massacre from a number of sources, you should agree with Fearnotruth that it happened, there were many murdered, and there were a host of witnesses.

No witness was clear about the number of those murdered, but in the beginning there were about 8000 who surrendered and that hundreds survived the “Convoy”.  I never read a link that didn’t contain eyewitness accounts of what happened and I don’t even recall reading an account that said that the U S Special Forces were not involved.

There was differences of opinion about the amount of involvement from witnesses who said that the Special Forces personally shot many of the survivors to that the Special Forces only stood by and witnessed the murders.  Some of the witnesses you might recall were Special Forces themselves.

I have not personally talked to any of the witnesses myself, so if that is going to be your standard, then I can’t help you.

By the way, I’ve never personally been to Afghanistan either, but somehow, I do believe there is such a place.  I didn’t personally talk to any survivor of the Holocaust either, and somehow I still believe one took place.

In the beginning I said I needed to ask some questions.  One I haven’t asked is what your standard of proof is. I assume any person who doesn’t want to be convinced of some particular event could set a standard of proof something like “are you going to believe me or your lying eyes”.  I’m beginning to think your agenda is not receptive to discerning any truth you don’t want to hear.

grym
*The incident you write of is indeed a crime.  I can’t agree that it was the most gruesome since WWII. *

u’re damn right kid
gruesome as it was, this is hardly the worst crime committed by the yanks since ww2, off hand i could think of dozens of atrocities which make this afgan massacre looks like child’s play, such is the scope n depravity of amerikka’s crimes against humanities.

try these for size…
the highway of death
http://tinyurl.com/y3vz2o8
cold blooded destruction of a nation’s infrastructure
http://tinyurl.com/y9lkstf
killing a nation
http://tinyurl.com/3bg49b6
*wasting a city*
http://tinyurl.com/3h5w94m

kid
these are just the tip of an iceberg neither are they the *most gruesome*
but if u have any integrity left u ought to bury ur head in shame
instead of indulging in this *my country right or wrong* bs day in day out

Cliff Carson,

I’m not sure if you intended to avoid answering my questions, nonetheless, you effectively did.

You wrote that while in Afghanistan Special Forces participated in one of the most gruesome mass murders that have taken place since WWII.  You write this as if it is established fact.

Do you have any evidence we can evaluate which indicates that Special Forces were involved and, how have you determined that this was the “most gruesome mass murders to take place since WWII?

You also write that Hundreds of witnesses say that U S Special Forces were “witness and participants” in it alongside the Northern Alliance.  I have never seen anything by way of Hundreds Of Witnesses.  Where might I find some collaborative evidence of these hundreds of witnesses?

-

The most gruesome since WWII.

Did not the Kmer Rouge kill tens of millions of people?  Did not Saddam Hussein kill hundreds of thousands?  How many thousands died at the hands of Hafez Assad?  How many have been starved to death in China? N. Korea?  How many woman were stoned to death, starved, and raped in Afghanistan under the Taliban?

The incident you write of is indeed a crime.  I can’t agree that it was the most gruesome since WWII.

PART I

How Mossad Got America to Bomb Libya (1986) & Fight Iraq

Victor Ostrovsky and Claire Hoy, By Way of Deception

———

“I nodded. I’d still been in the Mossad when that order was given, and because of my naval background and acquaintance with most of the commanders in the navy, I participated in the planning for the operation as liaison with the navy.

A Trojan was a special communication device that could be planted by naval commandos deep inside enemy territory. The device would act as a relay station for misleading transmissions made by the disinformation unit in the Mossad, called LAP {footnote: LAP: LohAma Psicologit. Psychological warfare, or, as it’s known in the West, disinformation}, and intended to be received by American and British listening stations. Originating from an IDF navy ship out at sea, the prerecorded digital transmissions could be picked up only by the Trojan. The device would then rebroadcast the transmission on another frequency, one used for official business in the enemy country, at which point the transmission would finally be picked up by American ears in Britain.

The listeners would have no doubt they had intercepted a genuine communication, hence the name Trojan, reminiscent of the mythical Trojan horse. Further, the content of the messages, once deciphered, would confirm information from other intelligence sources, namely the Mossad. The only catch was that the Trojan itself would have to be located as close as possible to the normal origin of such transmissions, because of the sophisticated methods of triangulation the Americans and others would use to verify the source.

In the particular operation Ephraim was referring to, two elite units in the military had been made responsible for the delivery of the Trojan device to the proper location. One was the Matkal {footnote: Matkal: Top military reconnaissance unit of the Israeli army} reconnaissance unit and the other was Flotilla 13, the naval commandos. The

{p. 114} commandos were charged with the task of planting the Trojan device in Tripoli, Libya.”

~~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest:

(Vans were used by the Israeli Mossad in Libya… the Israeli Mossad “High Fivers” with their white van & the moving company in NJ…9/11 … check it out!!!)

http://mailstar.net/ostrovsky.html

PART II

How Mossad Got America to Bomb Libya (1986) & Fight Iraq

Victor Ostrovsky and Claire Hoy, By Way of Deception

———

“On the night of February 17-18, two Israeli missile boats, the SAAR 4-class Moledet, armed with Harpoon and Gabriel surface-tosurface missiles, among other weaponry, and the Geula, a Hohit-class mlsslle boat with a helicopter pad and regular SAAR 4-class armament, conducted what seemed like a routine patrol of the Mediterranean, heading for the Sicilian channel and passing just outside the territorial waters of Libya. Just north of Tripoli, the warships, which were vlsible to radar both in Tripoli and on the Italian island of Lampedusa, slowed down to about four knots - just long enough to allow a team of twelve naval commandos in four wet submarines nicknamed “pigs” and two low-profiled speedboats called “birds” to disembark. The pigs could carry two commandos each and all their fighting gear. The birds, equipped with an MG 7.62-caliber machine gun mounted over the bow and an array of antitank shoulder-carried missiles, could facilitate six commandos each, while towing the empty plgs. The birds brought the pigs as close to the shore as possible, thus cutting down the distance the pigs would have to travel on their own. (The pigs were submersible and silent but relatively slow.)

Two miles off the Libyan coast, the lights of Tripoli could be seen glistening in the southeast. Eight commandos slipped quietly into the plgs and headed for shore. The birds stayed behind at the rendezvous pomt, ready to take action should the situation arise. Once they reached the beach, the commandos left their cigarlike transporters submerged in the shallow water and headed inland, carrying a dark green Trojan cylinder six feet long and seven inches in diameter. It took two men to carry it.

A gray van was parked on the side of the road about one hundred feet from the water, on the coastal highway leading from Sabratah to Tripoli and on to Benghazi. There was hardly any traffic at that time of night. The driver of the van seemed to be repairing a flat tire. He stopped working as the team approached and opened the back doors of the van. He was a Mossad combatant. Without a word said, four of the men entered the van and headed for the city. The other four returned to the water, where they took a defensive position by the submerged pigs. Their job was to hold this position to ensure an escape route for the team now headed for the city.”

~~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest:

http://mailstar.net/ostrovsky.html

You are absolutely right GRYM.  I found from experience that most people will look for something to support their belief and ignore facts that don’t.

But the honest person who is interested only in the truth, what ever it reveals, is the person who we should all respect and listen to.

Yes the entire incident is in dispute.  I have written several commentaries on this event and also about the peripheral characters, and that required lots of research.

What facts might we all agree on?

Did a massacre occur?  I think all honest men will agree it did.

Did it involve thousands of Taliban and others who accepted a promise of amnesty by General Dostum and the leaders of the other Northern Alliance factions?
I think that is also true.

A statement copied from a Sam Zarifi article (Asia-Pacific director for Amnesty International) “After seven years of appeasing warlords and human rights violators, isn’t it time for the Afghan government and its international supporters to try truth and accountability?”

What the facts reveal GRYM is that those who committed the crime have every reason to deny that it happened, and they have control of the scene of the crime.

What bothered me most and caused me to write the comments preceding this one, is that these types of grisly occurrences are common practice by despotic governments.  The Operative procedure is deny until it can no longer be denied, and then attack the messenger.

When I said that we should get rid of all despotic governments, I said even if they are our own.  If you would really like to read some history about Empire building and the murderous attitude that guides such governments - do some serious reading about Neo-Colonialism.  The actions of the CIA and the other Empire Countries follow the script to the letter.  The goal is to create a condition where the rogue government can convince its people that action must be taken, nearly always for “Humanitarian Purposes” and that action nearly always results in an overthrow of some other government for a valuable something the Corporations want.

This is definitely not anything new.

Truth and history are unchangeable.  Once the bell has been rung, it cannot be un-rung, but with skilled spinners it is too often presented vastly different than what actually happened.

This is a subject that interests me greatly, thank you for joining me in discussing this event.

Cliff Carson,

I no longer provide links for precisely the reason you haven’t on this subject.  If others wish to take the time to learn more they are able to do the work themselves.  I refuse now to put in the time of providing live links.

If we look closely most links people provide carry us to dozens of so-called “news” items regurgitating a single source, however, because one was able to provide dozens of links they believe they have proven their claims.  As an investigator of 25 years I understand well the difference.

Cliff Carson,

The “Convoy of Death” incident is neither new or news to me.

You have read others claim there were hundreds of witnesses to U.S. involvement.  What’s always missing is confirmation by anyone on the ground that the U.S. was involved in any way.

What seems clear is that the Northern Alliance was involved.  Your statements here appear to put U.S. at the apex of the incident.  So I asked, what I believe to be, a couple of pertinent questions.  As far as I know the entire incident, along with the details, is greatly in dispute.

cia *is* in libya , really ?

this *revolution* reeks of cia from the outset….
http://tinyurl.com/5rfrv7k
http://tinyurl.com/47r76uj

we all know that these black ops creeps, cia/mi5/mossad/sas/seals etc etc had been mounting covert ops in iraq, afghan, kosovo, sudan long before the war, paving the way for the invasion, its their modus operandii.
we know they had been in iran for yrs now n i bet they were up to their eyeballs in this latest *color revolution*.

how else do u explain a *peaceful protest* by some yuppies could escalate into highly sophiticated military ops, taking cities n threatening tripoli in a matter of days ?

Thanks Fearnotruth

I am glad that someone went and checked out this massacre that occurred.  And one of the reasons I didn’t post a link is that I wanted people to find whatever trail they would like to start down.

One of the things I do is read several versions of everything posted that interests me because there is a world of misinformation out there.  And Fearnotruth I see you looked at several links. 

Don’t know if you ran across anything that would let you know that this massacre was first published in TIME magazine about Dec of 2001 or Jan 2002 but it was never picked up on and that was the end of anyone in America reading about it for the next 7 or 8 years, except for bloggers like us.  And you know how they can get trashed.

There is an evil presence in this World and it is coming after you and me and everyone else not of the ELITE.  They want every thing you have and everything you would have ever had.  That includes your life and your every thought. Somewhere in that range is what is left of your and my freedom.  Make no mistake they are just like the Terminator, they have just one purpose - domination.

They can still be stopped but not until enough people wake up and recognize the oncoming danger.

CIA, British Special Forces Swarm Through Libya

By David Dayen

“March 31, 2011 “FDL” - -  This is an appropriately acerbic post from Matt Yglesias that can serve as a catch-up on events in Libya for those who missed it yesterday:

  Today’s New York Times features Mark Mazzetti and Eric Schmitt reporting that America’s no boots on the ground humanitarian intervention in Libya features ground-based CIA agents (presumably wearing tennis shoes) coordinating with Libyan rebels so as to better be able to assist them with tactical air support. Chris Adams for McClatchy also has a story out headlined “Libyan rebel leader spent much of past 20 years in suburban Virginia”, which is presumably because he really liked the Tyson’s Corner mall and has nothing to do with the location of the CIA or the Pentagon.

  Reuters also had it that Obama had signed a secret order to provide the Libyan rebels with weapons, but that presumably meant humanitarian weapons rather than the kind you use to kill enemy soldiers and resolve post-revolutionary political disputes with. The administration, however, denies that this decision has been made. Meanwhile, the Gaddafist state continues to disintegrate as foreign minister Moussa Koussa defected to the United Kingdom but Gaddafi’s troops made advances on the ground.

You can read more about the clandestine assistance from the New York Times or the LA Times or the National Journal. You’ll find that, in addition to CIA operatives, “dozens of British special forces and MI6 intelligence officers are working inside Libya.” They wear boots. And they’re on the ground.

I will say that, in that blogger call with deputy national security advisor Ben Rhodes, he stated firmly, in response to my question, that one reason you cannot say that the coalition has become the air force for the Libyan opposition is that we weren’t coordinating anything on the ground with them. That was two days ago, and it’s entirely possible, I suppose, that Rhodes was kept in the dark about the actual coordination on the ground between the rebels and the CIA. It’s just not very likely that national security reporters know more than the deputy national security advisor. There’s also this from the LAT:”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27800.htm

RE:  Afghan Convoy of Death

dozens of versions of the documentary in various lengths - lots of testimony, much of it
corroborating what appears to be evidence that cannot be easily dismissed
http://tinyurl.com/4pf6253

- this looks like the complete version - 43 min.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6050857680395448306#

___________________________

get something straight - there’s loads of evidence that the CIA/MI6/MOSSAD special ops and
probably even rogue networks have been using agency tools, assets and working hand in glove
with local gangs, common thugs and half-wit, low-life patsies of every sort to fail states and instill
chaos - why reports are now surfacing that the nexus was running terrorists out of the Benghazi
region into Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan, Palestine, Sudan, Chad, et al - the carving is underway…

the oligarchs’ vision for the Middle East: micro/mini-states too weak to resist the IMF, World Bank
and the onslaught of Global Finance Carpetbagger on their way to an asset-stripping orgy, all
under the guise of ‘humanitarian’ aid

one can only hope that the Arab Spring backfires - alerts the Arab masses to resist these ‘free market’
crusaders

good analysis here: http://tarpley.net/

GYRM
To answer your question about the Convoy of Death, I must first ask you a question.

Did you as I asked go read up on the Afghan Convoy of Death?  I ask this because of your question, it sounds like many I have heard over time-someone wants to argue validity of a comment I made without first reading about it.

I call it the worst Mass Murder not in numbers although the dead number in the thousands.  No I call it for how they were murdered.  And the circumstances surrounding it.  Hundreds of witnesses say that the U S Special Forces were witness and participants in it alongside the Northern Alliance.

So if you read about it, what do you have to say about the circumstances, the thousands murdered, how it was done, and why you would ask if the U S Special Forces were involved.

I would like to discuss this with you, but first I want to make sure I’m not speaking with someone who has no knowledge of what we would be discussing.

The “I’m from the government and I’m here to help you” bodes as well in Libya as it does here in the United States.

RE: Maybe they are asking directions.

jibes with my former father-in-law (well-read Soviet aficionado) - when asked in
1991 if he thought the CIA were in Russia ‘stirring up trouble’ - he blurted glibly,
“They couldn’t stir their own coffee.”

were that that they were such… world might be safer

D.R. Zing, March 31 at 8:05 pm,

70% of the population—the common dreams of the majority
population— isn’t even
represented in the making and enforcing
of legislated law and order in the United States,
so doing what you have
stated is impossible without a revolutionary take
over of the Democratic Party by the Common
Population as a class and culture, so that new
legislation can be made to regulate the
corporations and their corporate CEO’s, mega
bankers, capitalists and judges that are now
running the country (fascism), and continually taking
all monies away from the public domain and
funneling all the country’s wealth to their own
private coffers.  All the wealth, or at least all the
wealth they haven’t already squandered or
removed to an undisclosed location in another
country, the wealthy have in their own private
coffers and continue waging war at the public’s
expense with a passion to take every last penny
away from the public domain.  The following url
by Moveon.org states what is being debated in
the U.S. Senate relative to Oklahoma and either
more or less in all the rest of the states:
https://mail.google.com/mail/?hl=en&shva=1#inbox/12f0cc5a1fe7dbd8 

When 70% of the population vote, their vote is
not for whom they choose to vote,  but for whom
the duopoly has chosen for them to vote, and
no candidate is ever allowed to be representative of the 70%
majority common population, but are only allowed to be
representative of the duopoly of either the
Right-Wing corporate elite or their counterpart
corporate toadies in the Democratic Party.

Liberals who would represent the 70% majority
common population aren’t allowed a platform from which to
speak, therefore it will take a revolution for
liberals to get a platform to speak.

As long as the majority common populace is
contented to be led around as children, there will
be no change, but when the 70% majority
common population wake up and decide they do
not want to be controlled as children, the
Democratic Party will be taken over and there will
be real progressive change.

I would suspect non-lethal assistance means money, which can be readily converted to lethal assistance via the international arms market, thereby ensuring a pathologically corruptible and violent person will be drawn to power in Libya. We will replace Whack Job A with Whack Job B, as we’ve done so many times before. 

Here’s a novel suggestion:  Go with Albert Einstein’s view of the United Nations and disarm Libya. I mean, hell, if you’re gonna clean house, clean it right. We disarm everyone. We leave. Nobody has any weapons.  The situation becomes particularly unsavory for violent sociopaths, who don’t really want power unless it is absolute. The situation becomes safe and advantageous for people who are indeed peaceful, reasonable, and open to opposing points of view, which is to say, the majority.

MarhaA, here’s a platform for a third party or a refreshed Democratic Party.  The United States launches a global campaign among allies and enemies alike to stop the sale of arms. Tanks, attack helicopters, fighter jets, surface to air missiles, rocket propelled grenades, assault rifles, land mines, heavy guns, whatever-the-hell killing machine it is—we publicly state we won’t be selling them and we’ll pursue international sanctions against any other country that does. 

We then state our foreign policy:  We will stay out of the internal affairs of your country, but if we have to go in, when we leave, no one in your country will have any type of modern weaponry whatsoever.

Energy policy:  All electric cars in ten years; transcontinental high speed rail; and a ring of nuclear power plants around Washington DC if the pols think that’s a great idea.

You get my point.  The original idea of the United Nations as advocated by the nitwit Albert Einstein and that obscure president referred to as FDR was to prevent Little Hitlers from arising all over the globe; instead, true geniuses decided Little Hitlers were okay as long as they were our Little Hitlers.  They were forced to make this asinine decision because of our asinine energy policy. To change one means we need to change the other.

“Give peace a chance.”

The CIA is in Libya to help the Libyans, when
there is no concern for U.S. Citizens having
health care, or doctors making thousands while
corporate bankers and CEO’s make millions.

Obama apparently, like the rest of the world,
thinks U.S. Citizens as a whole are politically
foolish, after all, there are so many working
people in the United States that think they are
conservatives and Republican, no less, and that
there is a real middle class of the entire
population besides the fascist Republican GOP’s
fascist toady’s, what else could Obama think?  He
is also a fascist conservative and fascist
conservatives and Republicans are not concerned
about jobs for the Common Population, the
working people class and culture of the United
State, which includes the poor, the disabled, the
young and the old that are without a cushion. 
Surely conservative working people will be able
to see plainly that the corporate conservative
leader of GE who pays no taxes is concerned
about liberal living wage jobs in the United
States for working people, especially for those
that think they are conservative Republicans, and
keep voting the Republicans in.  NOT.

In order to change the fascist situation in the
United States, the people of the Common
Population that are a 70% majority population
need to forget the Republican Party; take over
the Democratic Party, and under new progressive
leadership, make the Democratic Party represent
the Common Population as a class and culture
that is the 70% Majority population in the United
States.  It could be done in the United States,
not just in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan, if the
people of the United States will just do it.

As long as the people want to hold on to a
supposed middle class and divide the common
population, it will be impossible to take over the
Democratic Party, but if the people can let go of
the middle class frame and realize the strength
of their common class and culture, the Democratic
Party can be taken away from the fascists and
legislation changed for representation from all
subjective common dreams of the common
population in the United States to objective
common living wage jobs for all the common
population of the United States, with the wealthy
paying taxes, instead of the wealthy paying NO
TAXES.

Duh.

Obama apparently, like the rest of the world, thinks U.S. Citizens as a whole are politically foolish, after all, there are so many working people in the United States that think they are conservatives and Republican, no less, and that there is a real middle class of the entire population besides the fascist Republican GOP’s fascist toady’s, what else could Obama think?  He is also a fascist conservative and fascist conservatives and Republicans are not concerned about jobs for the Common Population, the working people class and culture of the United State, which includes the poor, the disabled, the young and the old that are without a cushion.  Surely conservative working people will be able to see plainly that the corporate conservative leader of GE who pays no taxes is concerned about liberal living wage jobs in the United States for working people, especially for those that think they are conservative Republicans, and keep voting the Republicans in.  NOT.

In order to change the fascist situation, the people of the Common Population that are a 70% majority population need to forget the Republican Party; take over the Democratic Party, and under new progressive leadership, make the Democratic Party represent the Common Population, which is the 70% Majority population in the United States.  It could be done in the United States as well as Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan, if the people of the United States will just do it.

The CIA is in Libya…. of course they HAVE BEEN!

This Amerikan Empire will not easily go silently into the night…. this empire will surely NOT give up any foothold it has anywhere without a fight!

Why must mankind repeat history, LORD?

News?  The CIA, the Mossad, and their friends have been operating in the Middle
East since about the time the wheel was invented.

Hoo, boy! This global military imperialism never gets old. Security Council
resolution, schmezolution - let’s set up a vassal state in north Africa.

This feels like a chapter from the brilliant Rumsfeld, Franks, Petraeus Afghanistan strategy.  When Kabul fell there was, reportedly, only 82 American Special Forces on the ground, lead by the CIA.

-

Cliff Carson,

Do you have any evidence we can evaluate which indicates that Special Forces were involved in the “Convoy of Death” in Afghanistan? Also, how have you determined that this was the “most gruesome mass murders that have taken place since WWII”?

Isn’t this all ultimately about Libya not being in the World bank?.. and wanting to set up a new petroleum exchange or bypass the US reserve currency rules?

That’s his real crime. Even Lockerbie or whatever bombing he facilitated was forgiven! The photos showing C. Rice, Mcain, Rumsfeld, Obama himself and more glad handing that goofball are priceless!

Quadaffi is a nut and has killed some of his people.. does this justify the US and NATO stepping in to aid an armed insurrection? That’s what it is, right?

My guess is the CIA has been on the ground (and handing out weapons and more) for quite some time.

Sadly, with all the disinformation and secrecy of our own government even if a compelling reason or reasons for this new war are brought forward.. I’lll not be able to believe it!

Adios.

The early sounds of mission creep into another fruitless imperial adventure and money pit in some godforsaken hell hole in the desert…

Bush was a fool.  Obama does not have that excuse but instead has plenty of sanctimonious wind to blow our way.

Hmm, the CIA offering “nonlethal assistance”. Yikes!

Yep.  It’s over for the Libyans.  They’ve gone from a the 43-year reign of terror by Qaddafi to an ad finitum reign of terror by the Empire.  There’s nothing else that can be said here except they’re screwed.

You can probably count their numbers on your fingers and toes.

All I’ve got to say is that if I’ve got to fund the CIA, I’d better be getting something other than rendition for my tax dollar.

As I recall the Special Forces were also in Afghanistan - before any Americans were involved in Afghanistan, setting up deals with the Northern
War Lords.

While there, those Special Forces participated in one of the most gruesome mass murders that have taken place since WWII.

Want to know something about it and the U S cover-up of the actions of these “non-lethal” forces?  Google “Afghan Convoy of Death”.  First prepare to be sickened by what real Despots do.

Maybe they are asking directions.

Taking resumes and interviewing future puppets and yes men.

Wonder if they’re passing the hat around the campfire to collect for some more
Katusha Rockets so they can sneak over to Palestine and let some more off in the
direction of Israel??

****************

““Those agents are reportedly offering “nonlethal assistance”
to the rebels and getting to know them.”“
****************

Oh, boy. Maybe they’ll trade baseball cards and chat about
chuck sheen and his fantasy travel squad. Tell jokes and drink
beer.