Calabashe,

“Excuse me I wasn’t shooting at you, I was shooting at your brother! Not even the Taliban tried that on the British after 9/11.”

Don’t you just how these propagandist lump all the Arabs together when it suits them (ie. 1948) but draw distinctions when it doesn’t (1967)?

walterbard,

“But Lehi was a fringe group with less than a thousand members, probably no more than five hundred. the group did not establish policy for Israel’s freedom during the critical 1940s and at times actually fought the Hagannah.
Quoting Stern as an argument against Zionism shows how weak your position is.”

I guess that would explain why the leader of the Stern gang went on to become elected to eh office of Prime MInister of Israel.

The same for the leader of the Irgun.

In fact, the Stern, Irgun and Hagana went on to become a new terrorist group, better known as the IDF.

“Yes Stern was a fascist, but the founder of Palestinian nationalism, the grand Mufti was a far more of a fascist.and unlike Stern the mufti had a lot of support among the arabs who call themselves Palestinians.”

False.  He was despised and more importantly, was exiled from 1939 onwards.

walterbard,

Jordan’s attack on Israel was a response to Israel’s instigation of the 1967 war.  Also, the strike by Israel was not pre-emptive because and Menachem Begin and Yitzak Rabin both told us, Nasser was never going to attack.  Israel wanted land and used the war to get it.

The number of Palestinians alive from that era is irrelevant. What matters is the issue of property rights and like any civilized country, Israel is obligated to recognise those.

750,0000 Palestinians were forced out, not just “some”.

Only a few thousand Jews were forced out of East Jerusalem.

“I was doing a point by point rebuttal of argument because until I got to the assasination of Arafat part. Arafat died in a French hospital surrounded by his henchmen”

Sharon’s advisor admitted that Israel poisoned Arafat. 
After all, Israel controlled the food he ate, the water he drank and the air he breathed.

“The illness he has was kept secret by his own coterie. It probably was AIDS.”

False.  Even the doctor who said he had aids, said AIDS was not what killed him.

“Frankly this blame israel for everything is tiresome.  I’m not wasting anymore time.”

Frankly, this complaining that Israel is criticized every time is commits crimes is tiresome.

“One thing the Palestinian’s have learnt well, Goebbel’s use of the big lie.”

Sure.  That would explain why the Mossad chose the motto, by way if deception.

“You tell enough big lies often enough some of them will stick. Unfortunately it’s working”
It was working until the internet came along and Israel’s mask was stripped away and the decades of lies and revisionism was exposed.
In this day and age of easy access to information, it is interesting how Israel’s own propagandists fail or refuse to cite links or references.  They know their lies are easy to debunk so they pray on the ignorant and hope no one with any knowledge fo the subject isn’t around to catch them.
Those days are over for you and your fellow Hasbarats.

The fact that you can’t even cite a lie from the Goldstone report shows how naked you are.
The only nonsense here is what you’re giving us. 
Moshe Sharett came to the conclusion that Israel cannot be ruled without deceit as if it’s essential for the Jewish state’s survival. He wrote just before resigning:
“I have learned that the state of Israel cannot be ruled in our generation without deceit and adventurism. These are historical facts that cannot be altered. . . In the end, history will justify both the stratagems and deceit and the acts of adventurism. All I know is that I, Moshe Sharett, am not capable of them, and I am therefore unsuited to lead this country” (Simha Flapan, p. 52-53). In other word, what Moshe Sharett is saying that the “Jewish state” is incapable of surviving without lying to its citizens and the rest of the world; in fact it has been national security for the “Jewish state” to do so. This form of carefully crafted deception and lies is known in Israel by its Hebrew name: The art of Hasbarah.

“No Jordan attacked Israel during the six day war. Israel had launched a preemptive strike against Egypt and Syria…”

Excuse me I wasn’t shooting at you, I was shooting at your brother! Not even the Taliban tried that on the British after 9/11.

How about occupied al Quds and its 1/4 million Palestinians?

Ahad Ha’Am - A Brief Biography & Quotes    

BASED On Declassified Israeli Documents & Personal Diaries

1856-1927

Ahad Ha’Am, a liberal Russian Jewish thinker and a leading Eastern European Jewish essayist, who visited Palestine in 1891 for three months.

Famous Quotes

In 1891 Ahad Ha’Am opened many Jewish eyes to the fact the Palestine was not empty, but populated with its indigenous people when he wrote:

  “We abroad are used to believe the Eretz Yisrael is now almost totally desolate, a desert that is not sowed ..... But in truth that is not the case. Throughout the country it is difficult to find fields that are not sowed. Only sand dunes and stony mountains .... are not cultivated.” (Righteous Victims, p. 42)

In 1891 Ahad Ha’Am similarly wrote of the Palestinians:

  “If a time comes when our people in Palestine develop so that, in small or great measure, they push out the native inhabitants, these will not give up their place easily.” (Righteous Victims, p. 49)

Ahad Ha’Am published a series of articles in the Hebrew periodical Hameliz that were sharply critical of the ethnocentricity of political Zionism as well as the exploitation of the Palestinian peasantry by the Zionist colonists. Ahad Ha’Am sought to draw attention to the fact the Palestine was not empty territory and that the presence of another people posed problems:

  ” ....[the Zionist pioneers believed that] the only language the Arabs understand is that of force ..... [They] behave towards the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly upon their boundaries, beat them shamefully without reason and even brag about it, and nobody stands to check this contemptible and dangerous tendency.” (Expulsion Of The Palestinians, p. 7)

In a pamphlet under the heading line of “Truth from Eretz Yisrael” published in 1891, Ahad Ha’Am wrote of how Jewish settlers at the time treated the indigenous Palestinian people:

  “[The Jewish settlers] treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, trespass unjustly, beat them shamelessly for no sufficient reason, and even take pride in doing so. The Jews were slaves in the land of their Exile, and suddenly they found themselves with unlimited freedom, wild freedom that ONLY exists in a land like Turkey. This sudden change has produced in their hearts an inclination towards repressive tyranny, as always happens when slave rules.” Ahad Ha’Am warned: “We are used to thinking of the Arabs as primitive men of the desert, as a donkey-like nation that neither sees nor understands what is going around it. But this is a GREAT ERROR. The Arab, like all sons of Sham, has sharp and crafty mind . . . Should time come when life of our people in Palestine imposes to a smaller or greater extent on the natives, they WILL NOT easily step aside.” (One Palestine Complete, p. 104) How accurate ‘Ahad Ha’Am description was even after more a 100 years plus of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict! The conduct of most Israelis, especially in the occupied territories, is very much similar to the way ‘Ahad portrayed early Jewish settlers’ conduct over a century ago.

In 1891, ‘Ahad Ha’am issued a warned of the increased militancy amongst the Jewish settlers in Palestine:

  “The secret enabling our people to survive is ... that already in antiquities prophets taught it to respect only spiritual power and never to admire physical power. Therefore, it has not succumbed, like all ancient people, to a loss of identity when faced with stronger adversaries ... However, a political idea alien to the national culture can turn the people’s heart away from spiritual power and produce a tendency to achieve its ‘honors’ by achieving physical power and political independence, thus severing the thread linking it with its past and losing the base which sustained it through out history.” (Occupied Minds, p. 8)”

BTW, Israeli took premptive action in 1967 believing the Arabs were preparing to attack as suggested by Arab troops movements.

No Jordan attacked Israel during the six day war. Israel had launched a preemptive
strike against Egypt and Syria because both countries abrogated agreements.
and openly mobilized agaisnt Israel The UN did nothing. Israel did not launch an attack on
Jordan. Jordan fired the first shot.  just read any newspaper article of that time.

First of all there are very few palestinians alive from that era. Even if what you state were true
and it is partially, these are the only Palestinians who would legitimately have that right,
not their descendents.  Some Palestinians were forced out, but just as many Jews were
forced out also. East Jerusalem is an example.

I was doing a point by point rebuttal of argument because until I got to the assasination
of Arafat part. Arafat died in a French hospital surrounded by his henchmen . The illness he has was kept secret by his own coterie. It probably was AIDS. Frankly this blame israel for everything is tiresome.  I’m not wasting anymore time.

One thing the Palestinian’s have learnt well, Goebbel’s use of the big lie.
You tell enough big lies often enough some of them will stick. Unfortunately it’s working,
from Arafat, to Israeli’s were behind 9/11
to the Golstone report. All of it nonsense

The Stern Gang along with Menachem Begin’s Irgun are two of the 4 conservative factions that united to become the Likud.

But how about not avoiding the current issue like at the center of yesterday’s White House talks - occupied al Quds (East Jerusalem) and its 1/4 million Palestinians?

Dude, It’s all Zionist hasbara.

“The return to the Armistice line which was broken
by Jordan in 1967. With today’s weapons that makes for an indefensible border. Since the Arabs never accepted the green line before 1967 why should Israel accept it now.”

Because it’s international law, perhaps?

“The so-called ‘right of return’ Israel is supposed to accept millions of Arabs who weren’t born in Israel as returnees. As I’ve often pointed out, there were far more Jews forced out of Arab countries than Arabs who left Israel in 1948-49.”

Wrong, UNGA 194 art 11:
“Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.”

Arab nations are now open to a looser interpretation of 194 centering on compensation in lieu of physical return to Israel proper. I’ll go so far as to guess the international community would be willing to pick up much of the tab in the interest of ending this too long festering wound that is a major global security theat.

“The refusal of to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.
Arabs complain about unacceptable peace proposals offered by Israel but make demands
they know Israel could never accept.”

Wrong again
All 22 Arab countries have agreed to full peace, recognition and cooperation with the Jewish State in exchange for a Palestinian State based upon the Green Line – as previously posted. It’s that simple.

Is it that “Israel could never accept” such terms because the Zionists want it all except for a few ghettos here and there? The Arab Peace proposal, then called the Beirut Declaration is referenced in the Quartet’s Road Map.

Regarding the UN Partition Plan.

I got my facts from the VERBATIM UN Partition Plan (Resolution 181) which you claim that Israel accepted. 

Its quite clear that the Plan REQUIRED that all Arabs who resided in the area of Palestine that was to become the Jewish State were entitled to full citizenship rights in that State. Israel never accepted this, or else it would have never ethnically cleansed the Palestinians in 1948 and after, or at some later date would have allowed those Palestinians who fled or were expelled to return to their homes with full citizenship rights in Israel.

Where doe the 20% of Palestinians who chose to live in Israel, as Palestinian-Israelis fall into this?

Those were not the only ones who “chose” to live in Israel. They were the ones that were not forced to leave.  Others chose to live there but were continually denied their rights to do so. Of those 150,000, its estimated by Israeli historians to include 50,000 who were never forcibly removed from Israel, although they might have been forcibly removed from their homes. another 50,000 who were able to sneak past the Israeli “shoot to kill” orders and return to their homes, and 50,000 who were included in Israel when Jordan reached an agreement with Israel to cede some territory, with the Jordanian stipulation that the Palestinians in that territory must not be ethnically cleansed by Israel. They, along with their fellow Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed, deserved full citizenship rights under the UN Partition Plan, but instead a majority of them lost their lands and homes,  becoming the Orwellian “present absentees, and they spent the first 18 years of Israel’s existence!

Once under martial law and military rule.  They are still highly discriminated against in Israel. They have never had, up into this day, the full citizenship rights in Israel what were mandated in the UN Partition Plan.

Avraham Stern was founder of the paramiltary Lehi group, also
known as the Stern gang. It was responsible for assassinations such as UN official Bernadotte.
And yes it did have dealings with the Nazis. (The Arabs had far, far more )
But Lehi was a fringe group with less than a thousand members, probably no more than five hundred. the group did not establish policy for Israel’s freedom during the critical
1940s and at times actually fought the Hagannah.
Quoting Stern as an argument against Zionism shows how weak your position is.
Yes Stern was a fascist, but the founder of Palestinian nationalism, the grand Mufti
was a far more of a fascist. and unlike Stern the mufti had a lot of support among the
arabs who call themselves Palestinians.

walterbard,

“The return to the Armistice line which was broken by Jordan in 1967.”

Israel lancuhed that war, not Jordan.

“The so-called “right of return” Israel is supposed to accept millions of arabs who weren’t
born in Israel as returnees. As I’ve often pointed out, there were far more jews forced
out of arab countries than arabs who left Israel in 1948-49.”

False. The Palestinians who were driven out were done so under threat of genocide and furthermore, that enthnci cleansing has continued to this day.

“The refusal of to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.”

Why should they and what would that achieve anyway? Arafat recognized Isrel and Israle thanked him by killing him.

“And Israel refuses to Arabs complain about unacceptable peace proposals offered by Israel but make demands
they know Israel could never accept.”

You mean like obserivng international law and the Geneva Conventions? 

At least you admit that Israel is a criminal and terrorsit state walterbard.

walterbard,

Your laies a so blantant, they fall apart efforlessly.

Firstly, Ben Gurion stated without a doubt that Israel planend to reject the partition once the state fo Isrle was admitetd to the UN.  Isrl is the only stateever admitetd to the UN on condition that it would accept the terms of the partition.

The fact that the aprtition went ahead, wit or without Palestinian acceptance, proves that they had no say in the matyter regardless.

“If you to cherry pick quotations there are plenty of quotes from the arab side which called for mass murder of Jews.”

And visa versa.

“Many of the so-called Palestinians came to Israel during the British mandate in the 1920s and 1930s
in order to work. The british allowed the Arabs in but greatly restricted Jewish immigration because of arab pressure. that explains the increased disparity between the population numbers before WW2 “

Absolute rubbish.  In 1906, Palestinians outnumbered Jews by 10:1 and most of the population increase was due to natural population growth.  Very few came to migated to Palestine.  So no, the British did not simply allow the Arabs in and as for Jewish immigration, the Jewish population increased ten fold between 1906 and 1948.

“Since the Arabs never accepted the green line before 1967 why should Israel accept it now.”

Because the land beyond the green line is not Israeli territory.

51 Documents:

Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis

by LENNI BRENNER

“Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the “Stern Gang,” among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the “Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany.”

Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

  Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany’s side.”

They hanged people all over Europe after WW II for notes to the Nazis like these. But these treasons against the Jews were virtually unknown in the run up to the creation of the Zionist state in May 1948. Ninety percent of America’s Jews suddenly became emotional pro-Zionists. With Democrats, Republicans and even the Communist-organized Progressive Party competing for Jewish votes in the November Presidential election, Harry Truman’s monetary aid bought arms from pro-Soviet Czechoslovakia, and an Israel was born, run by the German Zionists’ cothinkers in Jerusalem.

Jews and other Americans still know little of Zionism’s sordid past. But today only programed fanatics can come away pro-Zionist after reading plain facts.”

~~~~~~~

Click on link for the rest:

http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html

Walterbard, It’s not even logically believable to suggest the Zionists would willing accept the Peel Partition 1937.

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1938-british-partition-plan.html

Prior, circa 1921, The Zionists were outraged when the British carved Transjordan out of the Mandate. They, the Zionist, expected they would be granted the majority of the Mandate including both the East and West Banks. The establishment of Transjordan is when the notion that Jordan was/is the Arab State began to develop.

The truth of the matter is the British were much more beholding to the Hashemites than the Zionists during WW1. (Lawrence of Arabia) The Hashemites were granted both Jordan and Iraq for their service.

Fun Fact: If you enjoy Dan Brown, you might be interested to know that the real and true “Sang Real” is HM Abdullah ibn Hussein al Hashem, the current King of Jordan who is the 43rd descendant of the Prophet (PBUH)

to Patrick Henry.
The return to the Armistice line which was broken
by Jordan in 1967. With today’s weapons that makes for an indefensible border. Since the Arabs never accepted the green line before 1967 why should Israel accept it now.

The so-called “right of return” Israel is supposed to accept millions of arabs who weren’t
born in Israel as returnees. As I’ve often pointed out, there were far more jews forced
out of arab countries than arabs who left Israel in 1948-49.

The refusal of to recognize Israel as a Jewish state.

Arabs complain about unacceptable peace proposals offered by Israel but make demands
they know Israel could never accept.

Ben Gurion accepted the plan the arabs didn’t, that’s a fact. If you to cherry pick quotations
there are plenty of quotes from the arab side
which called for mass murder of Jews.

Many of the so-called Palestinians came to Israel during the British mandate in the 1920s and 1930s
in order to work. The british allowed the Arabs in
but greatly restricted Jewish immigration because of arab pressure. that explains the increased disparity between the population numbers before WW2

re: By walterbard, March 26 at 1:17 am #

“As most Arabs oppose any peace plan that would not mean the destruction of Israel”.

A rather large blanket statement which smacks of bullshit to me.

Where’s your proof?

The orthodox Jews in israel who opposed the Peel
recomendations were Neuteri Karta. They are an unpopular minority in Israel. They’re the same
crazies that went to that bastion of tolerance,
peace and tolerance, Iran, to deny the holocaust
occured. Holocaust denial is one of the many lies
propagated by the Arabs. But the Palestinians
should know there was holocaust since Muhammed Amin al-Husseini who is described by Yassar Arafat as
the the founder of the so-called Palestinian nationalist movement was a Nazi mass murderer
He was a personal friend of Heinrich Himmler and
he organized the Hansa division of the Waffen SS
in Bosnia and Hungary.
These were Moslems who murdered thousands of Jews,
Gypsies, Serbs, and antiNazi Moslems (of which there
were very many) Such is the origin of the “Palestinian” movement There is evidence, albeit not dispositive,that Arafat was Husseini’s nephew. Al Husseiniwas the Grand mufti of Jerusalem,  a high Islamic cleric and mass murderer. How many rabbis were mass murderers revered by Jews?

walterbard,

“You are wrong

No you are both wrong and a propagandist.  Your talking points are effortless to debunk.

“Ben-Gurion perhaps the strongest Zionist of all
favored the Peel recomendations.”

False.  In Ben Gurion’s own words:

“The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan. One does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today—but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concerns of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them.
Source: P. 53, “The Birth of Israel, 1987” Simha Flapan

“The Arabs opposed any plan that would bring peace.”

False again. The Arabs opp posed a plan that would take half their territory and give it to a less than a third of the population in Palestine, who until then, only onwed 7% of the land.

No one would accept these terms. Soon after the outbreak of the first Intifada in 1936,  Moshe Sharett spoke of how Palestinians really felt about the continued influx of Jewish immigrants:

  “Fear is the main factor in [Palestinian] Arab politics. . . . There is no Arab who is not harmed by Jews’ entry into Palestine.” (Righteous Victims, p. 136)

“As most Arabs oppose any peace plan that would not
mean the destruction of Israel.”

Stupid and vapid hyperbole.

In March 1911, 150 Palestinian notables cabled the Turkish parliament protesting land sales to Zionist Jews. The governor of Jerusalem, Azmi Bey, responded:

  “We are not xenophobes; we welcome all strangers. We are not anti-Semites; we value the economic superiority of the Jews. But no nation, no government could open its arms to groups. . . . aiming to take Palestine from us.” (Righteous Victims, p. 62)

Ze’ev Jabotinsky also wrote in 1923:

  “The Arabs loved their country as much as the Jews did. Instinctively, they understood Zionist aspirations very well, and their decision to resist them was only natural ..... There was not misunderstanding between Jew and Arab, but a natural conflict. .... No Agreement was possible with the Palestinian Arab; they would accept Zionism only when they found themselves up against an ‘iron wall,’ when they realize they had no alternative but to accept Jewish settlement.” (America And The Founding Of Israel, p. 90)

To shingo
You are wrong

Ben-Gurion perhaps the strongest Zionist of all
favored the Peel recomendations. Some Zionists
outside of Israel opposed it but many within Israel favored it.

The Arabs opposed any plan that would bring peace.
As most Arabs oppose any peace plan that would not
mean the destruction of Israel.

Calabashe,

Actually, many Jews who were not in Israel also rejected the idea of a Jewish state.

Thanx Shingo. Also I should have said Zionists in reference to the Peel partition. You’re right, many orthodox Jews who were still indigenous to the region were opposed to creating the state.

Calabashe - at last, an intelligent and erudite commentator offering clarity!

Calabashe,

“Jewish opinion was divided about the Peel commission.”

That’s because most of the world’s Jewish population were not Zionists and were opposed to the creation of a Jewish state.

Calabashe,

Point taken. I meant to say 18 hundreds.

walterbard,

“The Allon plan was negotiable .But the Khartoum resolution in September ‘67 , which called for   the continuation of hostilities and the non recognition Israel ended any hope of an early peace.”

False.  The Allon plan was not negotiable.

“850,000 Mizrachi Jews were driven from Arabic lands. Their property was confiscated and 600,000 arrived in Israel penniless.”

Wrong.  Most of them were paid to migrate to Israel.
“ Oh yes, there was social discrimination against them by the Ashkenazi Jews I’m ashamed to say.”

What do you expect from an apartheid state?

“About 300,000 arabs still in Israel after the war of independence were made full citizens of Israel.”

Full citizens, without the same rights as Jews.

“And most of the so called Palestinians in Jordan became Jordanians and should have stayed that way.”

Many Jews in Israel are dual citizens,  Should they also stay away?

“If any other country were subjected to 10,000 rocket attacks aimed at its civilian population there would have been massive retaliation with tens of thousands enemy civilian casualties. “

Well, Israel fired 7,700 shells into Gaza in the space of 10 months alone, between 2005 and 2006.  Should Hamas have retaliated with tens of thousands enemy civilian casualties?  On wait, they did, but without the casualties.

“All Israel had to do was fire 10,000 rockets back and no one could argue that the response was disportionate.”

They did, well with 7,700 shells in 10 months to be precise.  The 8,000 rockets fired by Hamas has taken place over 4 or 5 years.

“Instead Israel tried to limit civilian casualties by launching a focused attacked at actual launch sites and hostile forces”

False.  There were no rockets being fired until Israel broke the ceasefire in November 2008.

“The result, the Big Lie called the Goldstone report.”

How do you know it was a lie?  Because it was scathing of Israel?

Even Israel failed to prove that anything Goldstone Reported was false.  Norman Finkelstein gave a wonderul example of the pathetic attempt by Israel to contest the Goldtone report during a recent speech at Harvard Law School. 

I was rereading the Israeli Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center’s 350-page response to Goldstone: Hamas and the Terrorist Threat from the Gaza Strip: The main findings of the Goldstone Report versus the factual findings. It is such an embarrassment that you almost — I said almost — begin to feel sorry for the authors. If you have read the Goldstone report, you will recall the harrowing passages [Paragraphs 1112-26] of Palestinians forced to kneel blindfolded and handcuffed in sandpits surrounding Israeli tanks that are firing away or moving back and forth.

So, listen to what this Israeli report conjures up: “Hamas operatives would position innocent civilians near IDF tanks to prevent IDF soldiers from shooting at them” (p. 196). You get it: a “Hamas operative” drags a Palestinian civilian in front of an Israeli tank and then says: “You stand right here to make sure the Israeli tank squad doesn’t fire at us.” No doubt the tank squad obliged and stood idly by.

Slight correction Shingo. The Zionist movement got its foothold circa 1880’s - that would be 19th century - during the height of the Russian Pogroms.

Just sayin’ not complainin’

walterbard,

“What did Israel have to do, wait for one of those “nuisance rockets” to hit a school full of children?”

How about NOT violating the ceasefire as they did in November 2008?  For 4 months of that ceasefire, Hamas fired no rockets into Israel and were arresting militants who violated the agreement.

“Rockets were fired at civilians deliberately. Hamas announced the end of the truce and commenced its reign of terror.”

False again.

Israel had broken the truce and then in December, Israel rejected call to restore the ceasefire.

“You can’t compare the mistaken identity attack in June 2006 with the deliberate attempt of Hamas to terrorize an entire nation.”

Mistaken identity attack?

“Iran is trying to furnish Hamas with even deadlier rockets which Hamas would have no hesitation to use. Hence the close monitoring of Gaza.”

False.  Israel began attacking Gaza as soon as Hamas were elected. In fact, as soon as Hams came to power, Hamas implemented a unilateral ceasefire, which Israel violated (as usual).

“Suicide bombings have decreased dramatically. That’s because of the security measures Israel was forced to take and not because of any conciliatory measures by Hamas or any other faction.”

False.  Suicide bombing have ended because Hamas declared an end to suicide attacks in 2006.

The illegal and inhumane blockade on Gaza is simply a murderous policy to starve the Palestinians.  There no security concerns served by limiting the amount of food or building materials being transported to Gaza.

“That’s why there’s a wall in the West Bank restricting travel “

The Wall is nothing but a tool to steal land.  Thousands fo Palestinians climb over the wall or through it every day.
“There was a time when people in Gaza could work in
Israel. But any country subjected to such atrocities as suicide has to take extreme measures.

“If Gaza might be a huge prison camp for the Gazans now but it’s a prison of the their own making when they chose a group that had as part of its charter all kinds of antisemitic lies and a goal of attacking Israel.”

That’s like saying the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto suffered because of their own making.

The Gazan’s only crime is not having the same weaponry to resist the Israeli siege.

“The Palestinian authorities call the suicide bombers who kill innocent civilians martyrs and erect monuments to them.”

Israel has named streets after Israeli terrorist leaders and even had a national celebrating to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel.

BTW.  Can you give us an example of such a monument?

“Has the Israeli government erected a monument to Baruch Goldstein?”

His grave has become a shrine to the settler movement.

“Yes, there are small groups that do revere him, but the government doesn’t.”

“There is freedom of speech in Israel so these groups can’t be stopped.”

False.  The government has no desire to stop it.  The same way that IDF troops and Israeli police stand idly by while settlers terrorize Arab neighbors.

“That is one difference between Israeli and Palestinian leadership.”

Yes, one gets massive aid and weaponry form the US.  One is occupying land and violating he Geneva Circumventions by it’s policies of settling on occupied land.  One is in breach of dozens of UN Resolutions. 

Need I go on?

walterbard,

“Why wasn’t a Palestinian state created between 1949 and 1967, when Jordan controlled the West Bank and there were no Jewish settlements.”

One reason was that there were over a million refugees who had not been compensated.

“Jordan simply annexed the territory and no called it an occupation”

That’s because they weren’t building settlements or bulldozing homes.

“Palestinian nastionalism is a bogus movement designed to perpetuate the war against Israel.”

Also false.

As early as 1914, Ben-Gurion secretly admitted the existence of Palestinian nationalism, at least among the working masses. He explained that Palestinians hatred to Zionism was based of their fear of being dispossessed. Ben-Gurion analyzed this hatred and stated:

“this hatred originates with the [Palestinian] Arab workers in Jewish settlements. Like any worker, the [Palestinian] Arab worker detests his taskmaster and exploiter. But because this class conflict overlaps a national difference between farmers and workers, this hatred takes a national form. Indeed, the national overwhelms the class aspect of the conflict in the minds of the [Palestinian] Arab working masses, and inflames an intense hatred toward the Jews.” (Shabtai Teveth, p. 18-19)

“The palestinians are Jordanian arabs and belong in Jordan not in judea and samaria”

Also false.  As Juan Cole points out and Shlomo Sands has documented, the Palestinians are descendent fo the Judeans who converted to Christianity and Islam.  85% of them have Jewish ancestry.

“But the jews were in Israel a milenium before there were Moslems there. “

Before the Muslims were there,. Not before eh Palestinians were there.

“There has been a cultural connection to Israel for centuries.

Why is zionism illegitimateand the so-called Palestinian nationalism legitmate.”

Palestinians are indigenous to the land, whereas Zionism was invented in the 18th century.  Furthermore, Jews were a minority until Israel was created.

Last but not least, the British had promised the Palestinians independence, but went back on the promise.

walterbard,

“The arabs rejected it,The Jews accepted the 1947 partition plan, the arabs rejected it and started the war. No, it was the arabs side that was intransigent”

False on all counts.  If Israel accepted the partition plan then why are they in violation of it today?

Ben Gurion stated that Israel would not be bound or limited by the Partition Plan.  Israel accepted it in the short term to grain legitimacy, but fully intended to throw it away once they got the rubber stamp of independence.

Let me amend my last post.

If you made my grandfather strip naked and crawl on his belly, I might be inclined to throw a bunch of over-grown bottle rockets at you too.

How about the nuisance of making old Palestinian men strip naked and crawl on their bellies through Israeli check points within the West Bank. The point here is that neither side is completely innocent. I stand by the toll and ratio stated previously. Palestinians call all their dead martyrs.

Thank you for acknowledging that Gaza is the largest open prison in the world. What a shame too. Just a Tel Aviv is a beautiful touch of California on the Mediterranean; al Moassi has like totally excellent tourist potential. Great surfing too, I’m told. I wish Hamas would just say the damn words of the 3 conditions for international recognition instead of parsing and dancing around them for the past 5 years.

Regardless, occupied al Quds had to be the number 1 topic of this most recent Israeli-American summit. It is against international law to relocate parts of its own population into territories occupied.

It is possible that political Palestine is not matriculated enough for statehood but that is also a side issue. There is no reason Israel can’t work to set fair and reasonable final borders.

What did Israel have to do, wait for one of those “nuisance rockets” to hit a school full of children? Rockets were fired at civilians deliberately. Hamas announced the end of the truce
and commenced its reign of terror. You can’t compare the mistaken identity attack in June 2006 with the deliberate attempt of Hamas to terrorize an entire nation. Iran is trying to
furnish Hamas with even deadlier rockets which Hamas would have no hesitation to use.
Hence the close monitoring of Gaza.

Suicide bombers: Yes I was getting to that.
Suicide bombings have decreased dramatically. That’s because of the security measures
Israel was forced to take and not because of any conciliatory measures by Hamas or any other
faction.  Buses, schools bombed. That’s why there are restrictions. That’s why there’s a wall in the West Bank restricting travel There was a time when people in Gaza could work in
Israel. But any country subjected to such atrocities as suicide has to take extreme measures. If Gaza might be a huge prison camp for the Gazans now but it’s a prison of the their own making when they chose a group that had as part of its charter all kinds of antisemitic lies
and a goal of attacking Israel. 

The Palestinian authorities call the suicide bombers who kill innocent civilians martyrs and erect
monuments to them. Has the Israeli government erected a monument to Baruch Goldstein?
Yes, there are small groups that do revere him, but the government doesn’t. There is freedom
of speech in Israel so these groups can’t be stopped.
That is one difference between Israeli and Palestinian leadership.

“The result, the Big Lie called the Goldstone report.”

Wed, 24 Mar 2010, Press TV

The United Nations Human Rights Council has passed three resolutions in condemnation of Israel’s “grave human rights violations” in the occupied Palestinian territories.

Apparently the UNHRC doesn’t consider the allegations of the report to be a “big lie.”

The Allon Plan was non-negotiable. It’s what helped HM Hussein ibn Talal decide to quit the West Bank in favor of a Palestinian State. It is still what Bibi advocates.

My information comes from extensive personal research and history conducted from 2001 to 2006. While a friend was picking up a weapon, I was picking up books, newspapers and a pen – for US. None of it is “phony lies or ½ truths.” In 2006 personal matters commanded my attention. They still do so I plead some ignorance to events since.

Are the Qassams still fired? A nuisance to be sure. I remember the total death toll by Qassam was less than 20 since the beginning of the Intifada and about half of them Palestinian. You don’t need any more than 2 Israeli (so-called counter-) attacks, like killing an innocent family on a Gaza beach or dropping a 1-ton bomb on an apartment block to make up for that. Let me pay tribute Rachel Cory and Tom Hurndall as well. The kill ratio has long been about 4 Palestinians to 1 Israeli and that includes bus, pizzeria and snooker bombs.

You should bring up the suicide bombers. That was the real atrocity coming from the Intifada. It was like the first goal of the Quartet to stop the Kamikazes, especially those against civilians. As I understand Hamas has not used the tactic since August of 2004 although there has been some incidents since for which Hamas involvement has not been proved or disproved.

I could go through the whole litany of charges and the ‘well they did that first’s with you but that’s all bullshit and an attempt to avoid the current issue – occupied al Quds. Pres. Bush’s (Dubbya’s) 14 April letter cannot be construed as a green light for further colonial expansion. Also by inverse Palestinian population centers need to be considered in amending the Green Line as well. With a ¼ million, occupied al Quds is a major Palestinian population center. If Israel feels more secure accepting al Quds as a zone B type area for a time – cool. Occupied al Quds, which includes the E1 tract, is Palestinian!

The Allon plan was negotiable .But the Khartoum resolution in September ‘67 , which called for   the continuation of hostilities and the non recognition Israel ended any hope of an early peace.

850,000 Mizrachi Jews were driven from Arabic lands. Their property was confiscated and 600,000 arrived in srael penniless. They first were put in refugee camps in Israel the were quickly integrated into Israeli society. Oh yes, there was social discrimination against them by the Ashkenazi Jews I’m ashamed to say.  But the displaced arabs in Lebanon and other arab countries, except Jordan, had it far worse. they were subject to apartheid by their Arab brethren.
About 300,000 arabs still in Israel after the war of independence were made full citizens
of Israel. And most of the so called Palestinians in Jordan became Jordanians and should
have stayed that way.

Am I a Kahanist? I once demonstrated against him years ago when he was giving a speech.
But given all the phony lies and half truths spouted against Israel I have to say that some of
things he said now seem to make sense. If any other country were subjected to 10,000 rocket attacks aimed at its civilian population there would have been massive retaliation with
tens of thousands enemy civilian casualties. All Israel had to do was fire 10,000 rockets back
and no one could argue that the response was disportionate. Instead Israel tried to limit
civilian casualties by launching a focused attacked at actual launch sites and hostile forces,
The result, the Big Lie called the Goldstone report.

“At first [1967] Israel did offer to return all the lands, except Jerusalem in return for a peace treaty.”

False - What was offered back to Jordan was something called the Allon Plan. See map reference - MIFTAH

One big issue is the fate of the 1/4 million Palestinians who call (occupied) al Quds home? Some families have been there for centuries. 1/4 million! That’s a lot of TNT in the israeli acknowledged Demographic Time Bomb.

Are you a Kahanist? Do you advocate loading up the boxcars and sending ‘em to the end of the rail line?

This site and its references, until recently, was the brainchild of Dr Hannan Ashrawi, widely respected as an international diplomat. Hope Ya’ll don’t think she’s too radical. <smile>

http://www.miftah.org/Maps.cfm

“Jewish opinion was divided about the Peel commission.”

Not really true unless you consider something like 90-10 divided opinion. LOL

As a Jew I too would have rejected the Peel Partition. If you want to know why - check out the map.

As a Palestinian I too would have rejected the so-called 95% deal from Clinton’s Camp David. If you want to know why - check out the map.

I think something between Taba and the Geneva Accord is fair to both sides. Both are based on an altered Green Line.

Walterbard, you subscribe more to Hasbara than to reality.

The walled city of Jerusalem was founded by Jews as was the City of David. The original village may have been Canaan. IDK

The Jewish quarter refers to a section within the old city. East (or West) Jerusalem did not exist until most Jews were in Diaspora.

You can argue that the Territory was “occupied” by Jordan but since there was no major problem with that at the time its a non-issue.

If the Green Line became null and void in 1967, why is it still used today as a demarcation for Israeli colonist to receive benefits and incentives for building/buying there?

Yes, as a result of al Naqba, nearly all Jews were exiled from Arab countries. Jews were also treated like shit under National Socialism. Does that give their descendants the right to treat the Palestinians the same or worse - short of the death camps?

And a correction from my previous post: There were no Muslims there 2000 years ago. Islam didn’t come into being until – what? – 6th century?

When I first began THIS OPINION concerning the situation, an elderly Jewess shook her finger at me and said, “Learn the history.” I pass that wisdom on to you now.

Jewish opinion was divided about the Peel commission. The arabs rejected it,
The Jews accepted the 1947 partition plan, the arabs
rejected it and started the war. No, it was the arabs
side that was intransigent

To Juan Cole

Of course Jerusalem was not founded by Jews. Every
ancient Mideastern city has layers of successive
occupation. But Jerusalem did become the center
of Judaism long, long before there were Arabs there.

Eastern Jerusalem was known as the Jewish quarter
before 1948. The Jordanians evicted Jews from both
the city and the surrounding surburbs. East Jerusalem
is being reclaimed by Israel.

Occupying powers. Wasn’t Jordan an occupying power
when it annexed East Jerusalem amd the entire West
Bank? The West bank was not part of Jordan then.
The Green line which now the arab states hold is
the border of was not recognized by arab states
before 1967 and far after. When Jordan attacked
Israel in the 6 day war the armistice line
was voided. At first Israel did offer to return all the lands, except Jerusalem in return for a peace treaty. But the Kartoum conference
rejected and vowed to continue arab efforts to destroy Israel. Now suddenly the old green line becomes a sacrosanct border to the arabs.

Incidently. Hardly any Jews live in Arab countries.
Why? almost all were forcibly expelled. Is that
in accordance with international law?
Twenty percent of Israeli population are Arabs with
full citizenship rights.

you should be more concerned with arab violations of international law.

Ah Walterbard - you know your Hasbara (propaganda). Remember when Golda dismissed them all by saying there was no such thing as a Palestinian? LOL

Actually, I admire early Zionism, the determination to reestablish the Jewish homeland, even if the movement wasn’t completely kosher. The region was never a land with no people for a people with no land. Jews, Christians and Muslims have lived there since the fall of the last Israeli Kingdom some 2000 years ago. Zionism turned me off circa 1992. The Oslo accords were signed and signaled a peace process that reiterated a 2-state solution. The Zionist (Sharon) shouted, “Grab the hill top” in order to prevent or at least limit Palestinian self-determination. The current goal of Zionism is nothing more than lebensraum, a la the Sudetenland. 

Jews were around millennium before Islam or Christianity. What’s you point? Not all Palestinians are Muslim. That’s a bit xenophobic, you think? Egyptian born Yassar Arafat once pointed out that the Palestinians are descendants of the Canaanites who were there before the early Israelis – if you really want to go back to the Big Bang.

A 2-state solution was first recommended circa 1936 (Peel Commission) when then Foreign Minister Winston Churchill observed that Israel would be less Jewish than Britain was British. Pre-state Israelis also rejected every 2-state solution until 1947 when they basically had no other choice since the British were quitting their Mandate.

I agree, the Palestinians blew it big time by not signing on to the 1947 partition. They would have been granted a hell-a-va lot more than what’s within the Green Line (Rhodes). That’s still no excuse for colonial expansion.

The international legal case comes from the 4th Geneva Convention (circa 1949) to which Israel is a signature. “An occupier may not forcibly deport protected persons, or deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into occupied territory.” (Art.49).

Look, there is no doubt that Israel is in a very hostile neighborhood and has some very legitimate security concerns that the US will not forsake but the israelis are not just innocent vitims. Consider the terroists Irgun (Began) and Stern Gang (Shamir) – now opperating as the Likud.

An Orthodox Jew – forgive me I can’t recall the proper term. Something that begins with H and I don’t want to mistakeing say Heretic – called me Rabbi (man of wisdom and knowledge) once when questioning me on my views. I took it as the respectful compliment as it was given.

Arabs have offered Isreal total peace, recognition and cooperation in exchange for a Palestinian state based on the Green Line. In a follow up interview by Thomas Freidman (NYT) then Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdulaziz al Saud, auther of the peace proposal, said he was less concerned with mutually agreed upon real estate transactions than he was for Palestinian well being.

INFORMED COMMENT

by Juan Cole

March 23, 2010

Top Ten Reasons East Jerusalem does not belong to Jewish-Israelis

“Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu told the American Israel Public Affairs Council on Monday that “Jerusalem is not a settlement.” He continued that the historical connection between the Jewish people and the land of Israel cannot be denied. He added that neither could the historical connection between the Jewish people and Jerusalem. He insisted, “The Jewish people were building Jerusalem 3,000 years ago and the Jewish people are building Jerusalem today.” He said, “Jerusalem is not a settlement. It is our capital.” He told his applauding audience of 7500 that he was simply following the policies of all Israeli governments since the 1967 conquest of Jerusalem in the Six Day War.

So here are the reasons that Netanyahu is profoundly wrong, and East Jerusalem does not belong to him.

1. In international law, East Jerusalem is occupied territory, as are the parts of the West Bank that Israel unilaterally annexed to its district of Jerusalem. The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 and the Hague Regulations of 1907 forbid occupying powers to alter the lifeways of civilians who are occupied, and forbid the settling of people from the occupiers’ country in the occupied territory. Israel’s expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem, its usurpation of Palestinian property there, and its settling of Israelis on Palestinian land are all gross violations of international law. Israeli claims that they are not occupying Palestinians because the Palestinians have no state are cruel and tautological. Israeli claims that they are building on empty territory are laughable. My back yard is empty, but that does not give Netanyahu the right to put up an apartment complex on it.

2. Israeli governments have not in fact been united or consistent about what to do with East Jerusalem and the West Bank, contrary to what Netanyahu says. The Galili Plan for settlements in the West Bank was adopted only in 1973. Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin gave undertakings as part of the Oslo Peace Process to withdraw from Palestinian territory and grant Palestinians a state, promises for which he was assassinated by the Israeli far right (elements of which are now supporting Netanyahu’s government). As late as 2000, then Prime Minister Ehud Barak claims that he gave oral assurances that Palestinians could have almost all of the West Bank and could have some arrangement by which East Jerusalem could be its capital. Netanyahu tried to give the impression that far rightwing Likud policy on East Jerusalem and the West Bank has been shared by all previous Israeli governments, but this is simply not true.

3. Romantic nationalism imagines a “people” as eternal and as having an eternal connection with a specific piece of land. This way of thinking is fantastic and mythological. Peoples are formed and change and sometimes cease to be, though they might have descendants who abandoned that religion or ethnicity or language. Human beings have moved all around and are not directly tied to any territory in an exclusive way, since many groups have lived on most pieces of land. Jerusalem was not founded by Jews, i.e. adherents of the Jewish religion. It was founded between 3000 BCE and 2600 BCE by a West Semitic people or possibly the Canaanites, the common ancestors of Palestinians, Lebanese, many Syrians and Jordanians, and many Jews. But when it was founded Jews did not exist.”

http://www.juancole.com/2010/03/top-ten-reasons-east-jerusalem-does-not.html

Uhm ... not quite ITW.

The UK has a Parliamentarian structure in which each MK represents a district or constituency. If the people don’t like their guy, they can vote him out, even if he is the party leader. That’s representative democracy.

In Israel (and other 3rd world countries), one votes only for the party. The Hacks have loyalty only to the party leader not to the people, which is why you see the same people playing musical chairs. There’s no way to get rid of them and the government keeps falling every 18 months or so. How many former Presidents trade around ministerial portfolios here?

Sharon was the only PM directly elected, once, the first time.

As for Lieberman? No argument here. In fact the words Jewish Nazi come to mind.

To Calabashe

Why wasn’t a Palestinian state created between 1949
and 1967, when Jordan controlled the West Bank and there were no Jewish settlements. Jordan simply annexed the territory and no called it an occupation,
least of all the so-called Palestiinians.
Answer: Palestinian nastionalism is a bogus movement
designed to perpetuate the war against Israel.
The palestinians are Jordanian arabs and belong in Jordan not in judea and samaria

“Zionism is a modern golden calf that has little to do with Judaism” Thank you rabbi Calabashe.

But the jews were in Israel a milenium before there were Moslems there. There has been a cultural connection to Israel for centuries. Why is zionism illegitimateand the so-called Palestinian nationalism legitmate.

Calabashe:
What you described is a typical Parliamentary system, which, while common in Continental Europe, we are unfamiliar with it in the US.  In fact, there’s nothing particularly unique about the Israeli system.

To claim it is not a “democracy” is to misinterpret the word “democracy” to pretend Israel is not.

However, it IS legitimate to worry that the current government is actually ABANDONING the rules of that democracy, similarly to how the US severely damaged OUR democracy with the Patriot Act, the revise FISA and the MCA. Avigdor Lieberman is as scary a fascist as I’ve ever seen.

Actually Dave, no country on the planet recognizes the annexation of al Quds (East Jerusalem). Only 2 (and not the US) recognize Jerusalem as the Israeli capital because of that.

al Quds (East Jerusalem) and its 1/4 million Palestinians are treated like the bastard stepchildren. They are not allowed building permits, peaceful assembly or anything that smacks of politics. The Palestinian cultural center was closed in 2000 when the 2nd intifada was declared.

Israeli settlement colonies in and around al Quds have nothing to do with the old city. In fact, some Arab nations (moderate) recognize that Kotel and the quarter are and ought to be Israeli. Also you fail to mention the demolition of Arab homes to create Kotel square.

A no frills visit is a good indication that discussion and disagreement was straightforward. The Obama policy with Israel has been to avoid any spotlight.

The current Israeli government is so far to the Right that they make Dick Chaney look like a pot-smoking homosexual peacenik tree-lover.

Recently I heard Bibi practicing Ziva-isms in the interest of increasing his charm. Don’t be fooled. Netanyahu knows the subtleties and nuances of the English language better than many of US, complete with a Philadelphia accent.

The average life expectancy of an Israeli government is about 18 months. It’s also wrong to believe Israel is a representative democracy like US. It is not. There are no constituencies or districts. Israeli vote for a party platform with each party receiving Knesset seat proportional to votes received. Actual MKs are determined by a party list. For example if one wishes to sit in the Knesset as a Likud, one most blow Bibi (figuratively, I’m sure).

The Israeli Premier is not the Jewish Pope although many act is if they are - that somehow disagreeing with Israeli policy is also anti-whatever. It is not.

Zionism is a modern golden calf that has little to do with Judaism. The Israeli system has allowed Zionism to infect just about all of the major parties. Israeli prime ministers who move too far towards actual peace are either assassinated or otherwise incapacitated. Likud is once again the number one stumbling block to peace closely followed by Hamas whose matriculation into a political party has seriously failed.

East Jerusalem is actually occupied al Quds, a major Palestinian population center with more than 250,000 (2005) Palestinians. It is the heart of Palestine’s largest population crescent that stretches from Ram Allah to Bethlehem and is key in creating a viable Palestinian state. The Zionists want it for little more than bragging rights.

There is a vow (paraphrased) that eyes and hands should fall off if Jerusalem is forsaken. At the time of the vow the modern city (West or East) did not exist. The old walled city is and ought to be Israeli - so long as all the children of Abraham are allowed to worship there. Occupied al Quds (East Jerusalem) needs to be returned to the Palestinians.

I’m forced to agree with PH on this.  This time, What-a-Yahoo and his foreign minister, Abomination Loserman, have gone too far, ‘way too far. The US needs to say Peace is impossible if this continues, and act to roll it back. As bad as Netanyahu is, Avigdor Lieberman is a racist monster who shouldn’t be allowed to run an ice cream parlor, much less the ForMin portfolio.

Cut off their aid and embargo U.S. goods to them.  I’m sure many nations would happily go along with that.  No more apartheid South Africa to help them.

Let Israel live off Madoff’s money for awhile if they can spend it.

Having returned from Israel yesterday, it is clear to me from my two week visit that Israel will never give an inch on settlements in East Jerusalem.  The Jewish quarter lies in the eastern part of the old city and after Jordan gained control of the territory in 1948, synagogues and Jewish homes were blown up.  Since the 1967 war, the Israelis have rebuilt the quarter and a few days ago dedicated a new Sephardic synagogue. Obviously they intend to stay. There is no way Israel will ever cede an inch of Jerusalem unless annhilated in battle.  All political rhetoric to the contrary is, in my opinion, a waste of time and energy, as it ignores this basic political reality.  I realize that there is a UN resolution in force and that most countries don’t recognize Israel’s right to East Jerusalem but that doesn’t change the basic facts of the situation that, barring a military defeat, all of Jerusalem will remain under Israeli control.